The truth caught out in stockinged feet once again?

Robert

Hearsay:
"Its executives have been heard to boast in the past that they had no qualms about manipulating the paper’s news coverage in order to maximise pressure on the government to get out of the West Bank and Gaza."

Hyperbole, lack of scepticism, naivete:
"Israel’s army is the most moral in the world "

Truthtriumphs

It is worth recalling the interview that Colonel Richard Kemp gave to the BBC with regard to Operation Csat Lead.
Colonel Kemp is a senior intelligence advisor to the British Government on the ME and commanded British troops in Afghanistan in 2003.
He said that in THE HISTORY of WARFARE no army had done more to protect civilian lives than the IDF in this conflict.
He added that, under the circumstances where the IDF were forced to fight in a densely populated theatre of war, the casualty figures were remarkably low.
He also said that in a war zone, there is often chaos and mistakes are unavoidable, which is why you always get deaths from "friendly fire".
And yes, the IDF is certainly one of the most humane armies in the world, and Colonel Kemp could say that from a position of knowledge.

Herbert Thornton

Obviously, Political Correctness Disease - which aims to destroy every nation that it infects - is just as mortal a threat to the existence of Israel as it is to the existence of Britain.

Gilbert Belwether

"Another squad leader from the same brigade told of an incident where the company commander ordered that an elderly Palestinian woman be shot and killed; she was walking on a road about 100 meters from a house the company had commandeered."

"We were supposed to go in with an armored personnel carrier called an Achzarit [literally, Cruel] to burst through the lower door, to start shooting inside and then ... I call this murder ... in effect, we were supposed to go up floor by floor, and any person we identified - we were supposed to shoot."

There's more of the same on the Haaretz website. These are soldiers speaking, not "rumour and hearsay" and not the words of battalion commander Zamir, the "insubordinate bigot" (i.e. left-winger whose views are shared by a significant number of Israelis, of whom I'm one).

I've all but stopped expecting my comments to pass the censor here, but I have something of a personal stake in this as my brother joined the IDF three days ago. Ms. Phillips can indulge her gung-ho IDF-right-or-wrong attitude from a distance, but if it were her family members being trained to consider human life as worthless I hope she would be slightly more anxious about what goes on in the most moral army in the world.

Les.w

Not surprisingly the BBC, on their News 24 channel, have already picked this up, and are reporting it, with typical smug self-satisfaction, as true. They did have an Israeli spokeswoman in the report, who merely said that the IDF was looking into the matter - although she may have then been cut off. She looked as if she was taken unawares by the question, and unprepared.

Hanna Nyman

Needless to say, Channel 4 News picked up this story with alacrity and its presenter questioned Mark Regev, the Israeli spokesman, with such shocking rudeness tonight. Fortunately Mr Regev is getting more and more adept at dealing with these indoctrinated bigots and managed to steer the harangue towards the common sense facts. Viewers were thus left with a good corrective to the wanton accusations.
Signed: Han

china doll

There are far more serious allegations than the one to which you refer. Do you really believe the "perpetrators should be brought to book"? If so, how far up the command chain should it go? It seems to me you're far more concerned with punishing those that have brought these alleged crimes to light. Presumably this is because if they are proved to be true, it will expose you as nothing but a propagandist.

Merlyn

Sadly, even within the ranks of Jews themselves there has always been a large element of self hatred and antisemitism.
When people feel even on an unconscious level, they are lesser or just tolerated guests in a land, they will always invite attack from bullies. Perhaps by distancing oneself from "those other Jews" one can appear to be like the gentiles and so kept safe.
These people would do better by remembering the countless ways in which the Hebrews as a whole have raised the level of consciousness wherever they have resided and that they, also are human beings with human weaknesses.

Pip

The bloodthirsty media are already on this, I heard it on the radio this morning. I suppose the msm will just run with this, more hatred against Israel will manifest itself.

I am so disgusted with Haaretz, words fail me.

My heart goes out to Israel and all the jewish people who this will (once again) reverberate against. Just another nail in their coffin, and one can't help noticing on the sidelines the haters and anti-semitics can be seen lapping their lips.

Keep strong folks its going to be a rough ride (again).

robins

Curious.
Although the Israeli left-wing paper Haaretz, that broke the story, claimedit had more such accounts it hasn't (yet)published them. Instead it ran an article attacking those who disbelieved them. In doing so, it acknowledged but did not deny that one of the main stories turned out to be hearsay and not an eyewitness account. These accusations are too serious to be bandied about without proof (see todays Independent for an example of how this story is being used to lambast Israel).

From Haaretz today:
" And now comes the most interesting claim: By the afternoon, the army could report that the investigation into the testimony regarding the shooting of a mother and two children had reached preliminary conclusions. Givati brigade commander Ilan Malkha summoned the squad leader who recounted the story, who admitted he had relied solely on rumors in the company. The soldier, needless to say, was not sent forth to offer his corrected version to the press."

David

You've already made up your mind, though.The title says it all. If you ask me, that's disgraceful journalism. The fact is, you brook no criticism of Israel at all, no matter how ridiculous the contortions you have to make including, it seems, trying to make out that one of Israel's oldest newspapers is anti-Israel. Don't you see how ridiculous that looks?

Jameel @ The Muqata

Now YNET is running a story where more and more IDF solider are coming forward -- saying the allegations are nonsense!

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3689388,00.html

Will the Haaretz investigation be Passover preparations in the IDF and blood for matza?

Mark

While it can certainly be said to be true that the IDF has always had high codes of conduct,isn't the question here whether those standards have slipped in some cases in the recent conflict in Gaza, and if so, why?

The Ha'aretz article - and other highly regarded commentators inside Israel including Amos Oz - have identified the rise of a disturbing fanaticism in parts of Israeli society which runs counter to its humane traditions. This fanaticism of course shows itself here repeatedly on this blog: one recent poster referred to the inhabitants of Gaza as 'cockroaches' and 'rats'. Melanie is selective in her quote from the soldiers' testimony:

''He believed the sniper did not feel regret. "I don't think he felt too bad about it, because, after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it ... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very, less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way." ''

Foster

How does one 'mistakenly' shoot a mother and her two children?

Isn't that called murder?

Carl

Stand by for the Apologists denials. At least some IDF soldiers have had the courage to expose Israel's brutal and disproportionate attack on Gaza.

Mike

Herbert Thornton: The mortal threat to the continued existence of Israel is the irresponsibity of those in denial of the consequences of its immoral ethnic domination over all others in the Region.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Ms. Phillips: You are right, as usual. Ugly, evil horrible things happen in war. Exaggerated stories about such incidents get around during a war (or a riot or a natural disaster), and it is the duty of a responsible journalist covering a war (or a riot or a natural disaster) to check the facts before printing the story. Journalists print whatever ugly, exaggerated stories they feel like about Israel, without bothering to check the facts-the I.D.F. is not as co-operative as they should be with journalists who DO want to check facts-in some instances because they want the Jews destroyed, they just want somebody else to do the messy work, in other instances, because such stories sell papers: "If it bleeds, it leads." Also, journalists know they CAN print whatever lies they feel like about Israel and the Israelis won't kill them. Too many Israelis are too decent for their own good; they lose the will to fight if they think Israeli soldiers do such things. If too many Israelis lose their will to fight, Israel will be doomed, which is what the B.B.C., for example wants. But why do the editors of HaAretz want to help the process, of demoralizing Israel within and demonizing Israel in the eyes of the world, along? Where are THEY planning on living if Israel is ever destroyed?
Did it ever occur to anyone besides me that destroying Israel will not solve the so called "Palestinian refugee problem?" If Israel is ever replaced by "Palestine," G-d forbid, "Palestine" will be a Hamas lead state in which nobody wants to live. There will almost certainly be a hideous war, in which nobody uses any human shields because nobody has any qualms about killing civilians, between Jordan and Palestine, and maybe a ghastly civil war between the Sunnis and the Shiities. Thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people will be fleeing the region, headed quite possibly for France and Spain. France and Spain are both full of people who yelled "apartheid" and "genocide" when the Israelis wouldn't simply let the Arabs walk in and take over. Lets see how well the French and Spanish behave, how civilized and willing to make concessions for peace the French and Spanish remain, when they are confronted with the same threat.

Kiffa

Six of one and half a dozen of the other.
Melanie: there is no doubt that Israel is 'got at'. But the attitude of Israelis needs some attention. I have heard of completely unnecessary rudeness and hostility from Israeli soldiers, from people who aren't even remotely Arabic too many times for it to be anti Israeli sniping. Perhaps Melanie you should take a visit. Carefully conceal the fact that you are Jewissh, and try to cross the borders.
The behaviour of the soldiers - no matter how stressed they are - actively undermines Israel's interests and efforts. They need 'attitude' and courtesy training as a matter of urgency.

Truthtriumphs

Gilbert Belwether.
"IDF...trained to consider human life as worthless".
Which is why it sacrificed 23 of its soldiers to go in on the ground in Jenin to root out the terrorists in booby-trapped homes and alleyways, when they could have attacked from above, with the stated aim of preserving lives of civilians.
Their sacrifice should stand as a memorial for Israeli decency, and should permanently shame Ha'aretz and those for whom the truth is an expendable commodity in pursuit of their own agendas.

Nannette

The Daily Mail have also picked up on the hearsay, and state it as "fact".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1163259/Israeli-troops-admit-killed-innocent-civilians-Gaza-war.html

Truthtriumphs

Kiffa.
"I have heard of completely unnecessary rudeness from Israeli soldiers etc. etc."
Heard, but never experienced, I have only known kindness, courtesy and helpfulness from them.
There is propaganda and then there is the truth.

Mike.
"The mortal threat to the existence of Israel is the irresponsibility of those in denial of the consquences of its immoral ethnic domination over all others in the region".

Give us some examples--- you seem to be confused.
It is Israel, alone in the region, that allows freedom of worship for all religions, and Saudi Arabia, to name but one, in which it is an offence to practise Christianity.
How do you explain the surrealist spectacle of brutalised and traumatised Muslim Darfurian refugees DESPERATE to enter Jewish Israel, trekking over 1000 miles of hostile terrain to escape their fellow co-religionists, spurning every single one of Israel's neighbours?
OH, I forgot, there is no Guardian, Independent, BBC, Ha'aretz etc. etc. in Darfur to tell them what a terrible place Israel is.

Carl

Miranda R-S: The Gaza operation was not a war, it was an onslaught against an almost defenceless population.

phil

Its no coincidence that the likes of foster ,carl and mike are quick to join the bandwagon of criticism -do they realise that in fact it is Israel bringing this into the open because they care about their reputation and will investigate any actions not in accord with their code of conduct ? do they condemn all armies for isolated incidents by rogue soldiers or do they praise those armies for their moral stance ? Any soldier who is proven to have committed a crime must be brought to book especially in order to uphold the reputation of the massive majority -and I believe they will .

stanley Jerusalem

Ha'aretz is the Grauniad of Israel. We expect nothing better or less from it.
Still, no-one's had a hand chopped off yet.

David

"Sadly, even within the ranks of Jews themselves there has always been a large element of self hatred and antisemitism. "

Please show where Haaretz is demonstrating this.

David

"You are right, as usual. Ugly, evil horrible things happen in war"

Not according to Mel. Israel does nothing evil or horrible in war. To say othserwise is anti-semitic. Obvisuly it's fine to say other countries do, but not Israel, okay?

phil

Gilbert Belwether your remarks are disgusting which is probably the reason for your censorship -----

-I know personally of one young and moral soldier who died in an accident whilst training others in a mock up village especially built for the purposes of fighting in confined spaces so as not to hurt civilians .That young man did not even have to be there, but he went because of his wish to behave in the moral manner that is the Israeli code-- do you know any other army that does this ?--And do you know whether your precious paper reported it ,or in fact any other of those news channels who are so quick to jump on an isolated instance of either bad behavior or indeed a mistake ?

.Your words desecrate the sacrifice of that young man ,a man that represents the overwhelming majority of Israelis -perhaps you should consider leaving ,there are a few who have written here today who would no doubt offer you a home .--

Truthtriumphs-thank you for those remarks I still weep for that young man whose life stands as a tribute to what Israel stands for. I pray that the small children he left behind in the supreme sacrifice will not have to continue fighting Arabs when they achieve adulthood .

phil

Gilbert Belwether your remarks are disgusting which is probably the reason for your censorship -----

-I know personally of one young and moral soldier who died in an accident whilst training others in a mock up village especially built for the purposes of fighting in confined spaces so as not to hurt civilians .That young man did not even have to be there, but he went because of his wish to behave in the moral manner that is the Israeli code-- do you know any other army that does this ?--And do you know whether your precious paper reported it ,or in fact any other of those news channels who are so quick to jump on an isolated instance of either bad behavior or indeed a mistake ?

.Your words desecrate the sacrifice of that young man ,a man that represents the overwhelming majority of Israelis -perhaps you should consider leaving ,there are a few who have written here today who would no doubt offer you a home .--

Truthtriumphs-thank you for those remarks I still weep for that young man whose life stands as a tribute to what Israel stands for. I pray that the small children he left behind in the supreme sacrifice will not have to continue fighting Arabs when they achieve adulthood .,and that peace will be the reward for his loss.Rest in peace aluf .

Laura

My morning newspaper's headline and opening paragraph contradict completely what follows in the rest of the story!

This is truly 1984.

The example I am fed has a soldier saying civilians were told to leave a house and turn right. The civilians instead walked out and turned left.

In doing so they walked into a zone where another soldier was under orders to fire at anyone who crossed a certain point in that area.

Where is the malicious intent on the part of the military in this? Even if we accept this account as fact, it would be an honest mistake.

An effort is made to keep the civilians safe by the soldier who comes across them, they head off in the wrong direction by a person who is told to protect a position and must fire if anyone walks past a certain point - and my paper thinks this amounts to targeting civlians!

And now we find out at least one of the soldiers supposed to have given an account of deliberately targeting civilians says no such thing ever happened.

Truthtriumphs

Carl.
"Gaza was.... an onslaught against an almost defenceless population".
Comments like that more properly represent an onslaught upon the truth.
The Gaza strip is armed to the teeth. These munitions were paid for from the huge sums intended for humanitarian aid from monies donated by the UN, US, EU and all our favourite NGOs.
Gaza is stuffed to the eyeballs with AK47s (more than one per inhabitant), mortars, explosives, rocket launchers and missiles, includind the Grad missiles which are able to reach Israeli cities.
Do, in future, refrain from boring us with your outright lies.

phil

sorry for the two posts it was a web problem -not me trying to take up space

M.Lester

I picked up a stray copy of Haaretz some while ago in BG airport. I can't remember whether it was the Hebrew edition or English. I did not buy it!
As I glanced from one item to another I could not help feeling that it was the Gruniad I was reading. I just couldn't imagine anything written, apparently by a Jew, which was more scathing or deprecating.
I notice also that the BBC & others used to refer to Haaretz as "authoritative". Now they DO call it "left-wing". It seems that to qualify for the epithet "left-wing", it must search out & publish as much filth as it can, whether it's true or not. With "friends" like this, Jews do not need enemies

Si, N

This from Melanie Phillips is utterly lame. Her assertion: '[n]o other army would take such pains to avoid killing civilians' would be laughable were it not an attempt to conceal the deliberate killing of civilians. Does this woman have no shame?

When Arnon Soffer said:
'[w]hen 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it's going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It's going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day…[t]he only thing that concerns me is how to ensure that the boys and men who are going to have to do the killing will be able to return home to their families and be normal human beings';

he meant what he said. The concern partly emerged following testimonies from Israeli conscripts - such as Uvda Gigi who spoke of 'losing the human condition…[t]o lose the human condition is to become an animal'.

Disastrously for Palestinians, to address the problem about how the Israeli conscripts remain 'normal human beings'; and very much in line with Matan Vilnai's threat to Palestinians that '[t]hey will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves'; the Israeli Military adopted the 'Dahiya Strategy'

The 'Dahiya Strategy' involves pulverising whole neighbourhoods ahead of Israeli troop advances - that is, massive bombardment from land, sea and air with the purpose of indiscriminately killing everything within a designated area. The reasons for adopting the 'Dahiya Strategy' are clear; to minimise the loss of Israeli soldiers' life and extract maximum Palestinian casualties; to inflict 'disproportionate' damage on civilians and infrastructure - in short, to demonstrate to Palestinians that 'the boss has gone mad'.

Adoption of the 'Dahiya Strategy' makes a complete mockery of the ridiculous assertion that Israeli soldiers are the 'most moral in the world'.

Truthtriumphs

Which other army in the world would leaflet the enemy to give advance warning as to bombing raids, thus compromising the efficacy of their tactics?
Surely everyone will remember early on in the war the case of a senior Hamas operative who was telephoned by the IDF to warn him that his house(used as a munitions depot and from which there was fire), was to be destroyed.
His response? He took some of his children with him into his house in the certain knowledge that they would all die.
For him, following the true Hamas terrorist ideology, life, even that of his own flesh and blood, was less important than the propaganda coup that their deaths would guarantee.

Mike

phil: I think you will find that Haaretz had the story 3 weeks before the Israeli General Command decided it had better do something about it. This is understandable perhaps. But there is far more still to emerge on the Gaza disaster.....disatrous,in my view, for both sides in this conflict.

aramkr

I was not on the ground during the events. I have no dog in this fight. I read the news. From this vantage point I have come to believe that perhaps 5% of these stories have some basis in fact. Given the standard criminal operating modes of Palestinian militants, the IDF, as a whole, has nothing to be ashamed of.

Donna Gardier

To: Kiffa 20/3 2009

I would think that Israeli soldiers as part of their training have to learn from experiences such as the one that follows:

“September 09, 2004
From the available facts of the jihadi terrorist carnage at the North Ossetian town of Beslan in Russia on September 3, the following reconstruction is possible:

All Russian schools re-open on September 1 after the summer vacation. On that day, parents accompany their children to school. The children carry flowers and other gifts for their teachers.
In view of the terrorist strikes by Chechen terrorists in Moscow since August 24, the Russian authorities had issued a general alert and ordered special protection for sensitive establishments, including for schools in the Caucasus area. An armed guard of four police officers had been posted at the Beslan school.

Shortly after the children and their parents entered the school, a group of 25 to 30 terrorists under the control of Shamil Basayev the leader of the radical Islamist wing of the Checnyan separatist movement reached the school gate in a stolen police van.
As the police guards at the gate tried to check their identity, the terrorists opened fire, killing two of them and injuring the other two. They also killed six parents who rushed to the assistance of the police guards…..”

Come on Kiffa! Please please do not start suggesting any security forces protecting any borders from terrorists like this should concentrate on……

………”'attitude' and courtesy training as a matter of urgency.” ? !

Please, let them be as uncomfortably surly as they need to be thank you.

Carl

Truth Triumphs said: "Which other army in the world would leaflet the enemy to give advance warning as to bombing raids, thus compromising the efficacy of their tactics?" It's what we in the west did against the Iraqi Army in the first Gulf War.

We called it Psychological Warfare, the correct term for it.

Truthtriumphs

SiN
Are you deaf and blind?
Why do you wilfully ignore the remarks of Colonel Richard Kemp who is not Jewish, and much better able to judge the morality of an army at war than armchair critics like yourself.
Unlike you, the foreign minister of Egypt, himself no lover of Israel, put the blame fairly and squarely, on Hamas, who have been AIMING their ordnance at Israeli civilians without provocation, for 7 years.
The moral is, if you care about human life, don't attack others.
Send this message to Hamas.

susie

From Haaretz today:
"All of the generals interviewed agreed on one thing - the army must investigate the events in question. 'It's important to emphasize, particularly after such revelations, that ethical considerations must come above everything else,' said a high-ranking officer in active service." The article by Anshel Pfeffer (surely not a suspect journalist in Melanie's book)shows wide disagreements among reserve IDF generals over the army's ability to conduct an efficient international investigation into the allegations. "The IDF has neither the tools nor the culture to carry out inquiries into ethical dilemmas. In fact, no army in the world has such a thing," said Maj. Gen. (res.) Ami Ayalon, the former head of the navy and Shin Bet security service.

"We shouldn't be surprised that such stories come to light. Whoever has lived in this country for the last 20 years, unless he has closed his eyes and ears, should not be surprised. The IDF never knew how to investigate such things, and in recent years, the problem has become more difficult because there are more such incidents."

Ayalon said Operation Cast Lead had compromised the IDF's "ethos, which was once built on ethics and sacrifice, and today, after the Gaza offensive, is based on force alone."

Maj. Gen. (res.) Eyal Ben-Reuven, however, breaks ranks with Ayalon, saying the revelations presented in Haaretz do not accurately reflect the army's nature...
http://tinyurl.com/c8oml3

Surely Melanie should wait for further investigations and developments rather than rubbishing the reports from the start with the snide intro "Well waddya know" and the attempt to discredit Dani Zamir. So someone with Zamir's views on the occupation is by definition a liar?

George Laird

Dear All

I have been attracting a lot of abuse because of my inflexible stance on Israeli war crimes particularly child murder by Israeli soldiers.

Our resident howling mob which haunts Melanie’s blog must be so upset that I and others who have been speaking out have been proven correct.

Donald Macintyre of the Independent has done a piece on Israeli soldiers who now are openly speaking out about the disgusting tactics used against civilians.

Several examples are mentioned of what clearly are war crimes as described in his article.

“an officer ordered the shooting of an elderly woman 100 metres from a house commandeered by troops”.

Under the Geneva Convention the targeting of civilians is a war crime, civilians must be protected.

“A second squad leader, who described the killing of the elderly woman, says he argued with his commander over loose rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning residents beforehand”.

Evidence that the killings weren’t random acts rather a systematic approach was taken.

“The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay... The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him. He shot them straight away”.

Much has been said about how the Israelis went to great pains to protect civilians that lie, that myth is no dead. Where as you can argue the firing of a single round as being accidental, this case is a case of clear murder!

"we should kill everyone there [in the centre of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist."

Is there any other way of describing this, it is a genocide; a holocaust type event?

Finally; Melanie uses a phrase;

“Mistakes happen in war-time”.

All soldiers know about the Geneva Convention and all soldiers know not to shoot civilians particularly children.

These cases aren’t mistakes; they are war crimes and criminal acts.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

mal

I'm not of any religion or political persuasion. I'm not Israeli or Arab. Seems to me that neither Israel or Palestinians are any worse, or better, than any other group of peoples 'up-against-it" (as they see it). Throughout history atrocities have happened - from individuals (Fritzl) to armies (Genghis Khan). Sad though it may be for those involved, the crucial thing is to deal with and resolve the substantive issues and not get sidetracked with things like 'rules of engagement' or who killed whom and when or how. The alternatives are either peoples will be at it for ever and a day... or genocide! To be brutally honest, I don't really care one way or another what happens. I suspect I'll be dead and gone before long. But it seems a real shame for all future Israelis and Arabs that that their parents and grandparents can't, or don't want to, sort it out. Maybe it suits some to keep it going? I don't know, but I'm beginning to wonder.

Penny

Hey ho - feeding time at the zoo again. The wolves and vultures gather.

The World Court Martial is in session and as usual, it's only accused is Israel.

Perhaps we should demand that Russia demonstrates absolute transparency with regard to Osettia? Or Al-Bashir in Sudan?
Or perhaps even the UK and USA with regard to Iraq and Afghanistan?

But who would demand such a thing of, say, Putin? Who dares to have the gall and courage? And if you think for a moment he'd apologise to the world or allow for transparency, you're living in la-la land.

As for Al-Bashir, he just ignores the ICC anyway and carries on allowing genocide whilst booting out aid workers.

And let's not spin this argument; If Hamas is, as has been oft quoted, a democratically elected government, and if - as we surely know - their practices fall so far short of 'ethical' and 'moral' and 'humane'as to be laughable, let's demand transparency and a full investigation into the murders that went on and continue to go on in Gaza. Or is that somehow different? Has the value of life become dependant upon who ends it?

Gawd - this obsession some people have with Israel is bizarre and unhealthy.

Yes, - I agree with Melanie; I've said it twice on previous posts around her site. Any army suspecting their soldiers of unethical practices MUST investigate and call to account those proven to be found wanting. That said - so should every other darned army around the world.

It's screamingly obvious that amongst thousands of soldiers in ANY army - especially where conscription is the norm - there's a chance a few will be there for all the wrong reasons. Haven't we had instances amongst our own soldiers? Haven't even young recruits committed suicide following alleged bullying by their own superiors?

As yet, we don't know what's happened. No doubt if the allegations are false we'll hear no more about it - or it just might appear in size 4 font at the foot of the Guardian. If the allegations are true then the font size will undoubtedly change. Israel should - and they will - act if the allegations are true.

Meanwhile - because human life IS important, let's make a few demands of other nations and see how far we get with, say, Putin and Hamas.

Or don't the lives of ALL Palestinian's and Osettians count?

Wm. Hazlitt

Here is a statement from Deputy Defence Minister Matan Vilnai on Army Radio: "The more Qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves."

In Lebanon in 2006, Dan Halutz, the Chief of Staff, explained the war aim as to "turn back the clock twenty years." Yoav Galant, who is I believe the head of the southern command, explained the war aim in Gaza this time as to "send Gaza decades into the past".

Gadi Eisenkot, the head of the northern command, explained in October last year the new military doctrine common to both Lebanon and Gaza, unofficially called the Dahiya doctrine: "What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen to every village from which Israel is fired on (in practice that has proved to mean any area or position the Israeli military believe may have been a source of enemy fire or may prove to have the potential to be so in future. Wm Hazlitt). We will apply disproportionate force on it and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases. This is not a recommendation. This is a plan."

The doctrine was given a more scholarly gloss by Gabriel Siboni, a colonel in the reserves, in an article published by Tel Aviv's Institute of National Security Studies in October last year. To paraphrase: Conventional military strategies for waging war against states and armies cannot defeat sub-national resistance movements that have deep roots in the local population. The goal instead is to use "disproportionate force" thereby "inflicting damage and meting out punishment to an extent that will demand long and expensive reconstruction processes." Siboni identified the chief target as "decision makers and the power elite" including "economic interests and the centres of civilian power that support the organization." The best Israel can hope for from these tactics against Hamas and Hisballah, according to Siboni is a ceasefire on improved terms for Israel.

Then there are the orders to the ground troops. See the article in The Times on 28 January this year. The order to the troops in the Givati Shahed battalion was to "fire on anything that moves in Zeitoun". I recommend the whole article. There is similar testimony from other soldiers to the effect that they routinely reduced any area they had to enter to rubble with heavy artillery fire before risking an advance. (For the soldiers, in extreme danger, these are clearly rational tactics.)

Finally there is a matter less frequently remarked on. For this I refer you to Ha'aretz 26 January and 8 February this year, and to Yesh Din and Breaking the Silence. What is the effect on soldiers who are orthodox Jews of the booklet of advice provided by the army Rabbinate before the invasion? I believe that the IDF has conceded that the booklet was inappropriate. Orthodox Talmudic advice on how to treat Gentile combatants and non-combatants can be very severe and is not generally considered consistent with the rules of war.

Given all this (and more - for example, the use of weaponry inappropriate for built-up civilian areas, the testimony of witnesses and victims, etc.) are we to accept that the civilian deaths in Gaza were all either caused by Hamas or simply an unfortunate but unavoidable accident of war?

Neil Craig

I think we can rely on our media to cover these allegations in infinitely greater depth than they covered the reports & physical evidence & identification of the missing, in the NATO police's dissection, while still alive, of hundreds of Serb teenagers.

I thin we can also accept that if thet media were in any way impartial we would have seen thopusands of times more coverage of the NATO genocide.

Michael

'Israel's army is the most moral in the world'

Even for you that's something of a stretch. I myself have never seen a 'league table' ranking the armies of the world as to their ability to remain moral.

What utter garbage.

Edward in the USA

Si, N,

"When Arnon Soffer said:
'[w]hen 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza,""

What happend to 1.5 million? - the supposedly most densely populated area in the world - not true of course.

Playing fast and loose with numbers again I see.

Like the 1.5 million of dead Iraqis?

HarleyDavidson

Those Israeli soldiers mentioned in Melaine's article have to be the world's worst soldiers with guns since guns were invented. In my part of the world it is very common for native hunters to shoot ducks or geese on the fly with rifles. And if this is the best that those Israeli soldiers can do is kill 1200 "civilians" after 28 days fighting with jet fighters, tanks, artillery, helicopter gun ships, mortars, armored personnel carriers with 50 cal mounted machine guns, 10,000 heavily armed soldiers then this has to be classified as the military who couldn't shoot straight.
If you want to kill "civilians" in Gaza how can you possibly miss?

The fact of the matter is, Hamas WAS AND IS responsible for every death in Gaza. Just as the bleeding heart liberals on this site refused to condemn Hamas for 6000 rockets fired into Israel. Had you liberals joined us in demanding Hamas stop firing rockets into Israel Hamas would have realized they were alone in their stupidity. BY your silence liberals you clearly gave Hamas the cover to continue rocket fire into Israel knowing full well Israel would eventually have to defend itself. Your crocodile tears now mean nothing!

I demand no more of Israel than I demand of any other nation on earth. Defend yourself when fired upon with everything you have in your stockpile. Use overwhelming force and utterly defeat any enemies who attack you. Let your enemies know if you attack then expect you will be killed for your stupidity!
Forget the liberals as they wouldn't even defend their own nation let alone yours! Do what you have to do to defend yourselves! No apologies.

John Edwards

"Colonel Richard Kemp" has, by his own admission "made many visits to Israel" no doubt to his contacts in the IDF. He now makes his living from advising on counter insurgency. There is absolutely no doubt which side he supports in the Israel/Palestine conflict. He is often quoted by desperate IDF apologists as some sort of "independent military expert". He isn't.

HarleyDavidson

NEWS! NEWS!

George Galloway, British MP, Banned from Canada!

Speaking in Calgary on Friday, Mr. Kenney said that while he has authority to overrule his officials, he will not provide special treatment to the 54-year-old Scottish MP.

Mr. Galloway “last week publicly called for a coup d'etat in Egypt and the overthrow of the government there while at the same time delivering aid and resources to Hamas, which is a banned illegal terrorist organization,” Mr. Kenney said.

“In this case, I believe folks that are supporting and promoting and helping terrorist organizations are not needed to visit Canada.”

Clare Simon

It would be nice if, when the IDF gets it wrong, they'd have the grace to apologise. To, for example, the family of Shaden abu-Hijleh, a 62-year-old grandmother who was doing embroidery in the garden of the family home in Nablus when she was fatally shot by the IDF. That was in October 2002 and as yet, no one has been held to account for her death (www.remembershaden.org see 'published articles'). Shaden isn't the only 'innocent' Palestinian to die in such a way, but she was a member of a family with the resources and wherewithall to try to hold someone to account. Yet even her family is still waiting for an apology from the IDF.

phil

I see you low lives with all the hypocritical hyperbole can find no word to mourn the soldier who gave his life to try to protect your favourite terrorists -yes the one described in my post at 11.27-just pick on the isolated incidents to make your case and say nothing to mourn and honour that soldier -a man worth a thousand of your kind george ,.michael.SIN ET AL -you attract the scorn of all decent people who post here ,those that seek peace rather than deceit and hate and I will not be alone in the disgust I feel for you .

Jenny

John Edwards, March 20th, 2009 7:37pm, Richard Kemp is not a Jew and doesn't live in Israel and is therefore thoroughly independent.

Jenny

Ah, Clare Simon, March 20th, 2009 10:08pm, aren’t you sweet wanting people to apologise?

When are we going to see the streets of Gaza filled with Palestinians apologising every time one of those rockets fired deliberately at Israeli civilians kills or maims one of them?

Israel could, of course, launch much more powerful rockets at Gaza every day if it wanted to, but instead it risks troops’ lives by going in to try to weed out the Hamas cowards hiding behind human shields.

When are we going to see the Palestinians apologise for Article 7 of the Hamas Charter, which reads: "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!" - which is what lies at the heart of all this murderous hatred. Or have you neatly forgotten about that, Clare? Perhaps you’ll apologise to us all this instant for being so disingenuous.

Ronnie

When human beings fight wars, lots of them die.

When those wars are fought in heavily populated urban areas, for whatever reason and regardless of the organisations concerned, on either side, lots of civilians die. Fact.

In many circumstances civilian deaths during the course of an urban conflict are war crimes. There is no point pretending they are not.

These war crimes are committed by both sides in the conflict and it does no-one any good to pretend that one side is more guilty than the other.

Attacking a peaceful town indiscriminately with unguided missiles is no less a war crime than the shooting of an old woman in her garden.

Those who choose to concentrate on the guilt of only one side and/or defend the actions of their own, in such a conflict, are mere propagandists. They defend that which is simply indefensible.

If there is to be any peace settlement in the Middle East then Iran must be controlled and its proxies destroyed. On the ground this means fighting urban wars because that is where these organisations are. They don't engage in classic tank battles out in the desert.

There will therefore continue to be war crimes as the civilian population is, in this case emphatically, a significant element in the conflict.

The solution? Stop fighting urban wars or redefine 'war crimes' to the point where it becomes meaningless.

The reality? Live with it but if would be refreshing if we could do so without the hypocracy of the likes of Mel and George.

Michael

Phil - there are very few people who post here who give me the impression that they are seeking peace. And thats even without taking Melanie's inflammatory writing into account.

However, I'm not gonna get involved in calling people 'low-lives' or expressing 'disgust' at them, because I am not 10 years old, and can readily accept that other people may have a different opinion to me, and I to them.

This may offer up the opportunity for an enlightened debate. You should consider it phil, you never know, you might like it.

Henry Sidgwick

Six thousand Hamas rockets feature largely. Hamas has indeed launched thousands of Qassam missiles. As an illustration, in the period from September 2005 to June 2006, Hamas and others launched approximately one thousand missiles. Israel launched between seven and nine thousand shells. These relative magnitudes are in the public domain, generally known, and not disputed, and apply over any period you wish to choose.

The orders of magnitude are similarly well-known for deaths. In the six months to June 2006, eighty Palestinians were killed. In the five years to June 2006, eight Israelis were killed. In the recent invasion, independent human rights organisations estimate the Palestinian death toll at 1300. Israel puts its own death toll at 13. Again, pick any period and you will get a similar result.

Si, N

Are things ‘somehow different’ in Gaza? Are you anyhow for real? At what level do you connect with reality?

The focus on soldiers is a distraction – the soldiers do the bidding of leaders as you well know - thing is, the colour of the bidding we know – it goes like this: 'soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you...to function according to the law, kill the one who comes to kill you. As for the population, it is not innocent...We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy.' You see, no distinction is made between ‘enemy’ combatants and the ‘population’ (civilians) – soldiers are instructed to kill everything.

‘Gawd - this obsession some people have with Israel is bizarre and unhealthy’ – like, really sorry and all that, but if you’d just snap out of your self-regarding exasperation for a moment you might understand that when we hear the utterances of Arnon Soffer and Rabbi Ginsburg, and then see the massacres, such as at Gaza, we feel moved to make a noise about it that it might ‘never again’ (ha)happen. Does it really need to be pointed out; the complaints against Israel on the blog stem from Melanie Phillips’ relentless apologetics. Gawd!

By the way, what’s the reason for your obsession with Israel? Do you not agree that endless slaughter in pursuit of the unattainable is costly pointless? If all Palestinians are ethnically cleansed and eretz Israel established – do you imagine there will ever be peace for Israel? And making ‘demands of other nations...say...Hamas’, sure is something you might ponder – start by looking at the agreements Hamas has honoured – remember Hamas ceased fire - Hamas put a block on suicide bombing. Why not pay attention – stop covering for appalling crimes ‘and see how far we get’ then.

Can somebody please explain to Edward in the USA the concept of citation

PJ

Ya well Simon Kemp is the final arbiter of TRUTH in the world and he said they're the nicest army in the world and he should know-he's a soldier, not a bloody armchair general like you who wastes his whole day replying to blogs. He's worth 50 of you. Any brave Israeli soldier (even conscripts) are worth 10,000 of you. Although that makes them worth 200 Richard Kemps. BTW he's not Ross's brother is he?

phil

Michael "This may offer up the opportunity for an enlightened debate. You should consider it phil, you never know, you might like it." wise words and perhaps you will take your own advice -so far you have just attacked anything Israeli ,and I for one have always written seeking peace ,but I do deal harshly with those who have no soulsand that will not change .

phil

The sin aka sin has actually said something sensible although totally out of context --"Do you not agree that endless slaughter in pursuit of the unattainable is costly pointless?sic " somebody needs to tell his militant pals to heed his wise words and resist their impulses to kill most things that move and in particular Israeli civilians ,then maybe the world will see them as deserving a hearing .

Si, N

Well said Henry Sidgwick

phil

Henry Sidgwick-in spite of the privileged education I was fortunate to receive it has not prepared me for the logic you use ,namely that a state that protects its vulnerable citizens is in the wrong as opposed to the government that places its women and children in harms way as a deliberate tactic of seeking their deaths.I am somewhat relieved to hear your applause from the endless sin ,as it supports me in the belief that I must be right .

jak

Melanie in turn is driven by an obsessive hatred of ‘the Palestinians’ which has long distorted her judgment and destroyed her integrity

Penny

Don't spin my words, dear SiNi!

I put the 'Gawd, what is this obsession with Israel' into context; the many situations around the world where millions are suffering. They should also command our attention and the spotlight - because they need it.

That seems the opposite of 'self-regard' to me.

Al-Bashir kicked out 13 aid agencies a couple of weeks ago as a punishment for the ICC calling him to account for genocide. 200,000 sick people were left without medical care and with 48hrs supply of water.

By the way - are you aware that Hamas, having cried 'Israeli atrocities' and received yet more billions in aid, popped a couple of representatives on a plane to fly to Sudan in order to support the poor man. A little cynical, don't you think? It would seem they support genocidal maniacs who don't give a monkeys about the millions of innocents they kill.
Hamas just yanks the world's chain for its own purposes.

200,000 people left to die and not a march, not a boycott, no student sit-ins...nothing.

There was no massacre at Gaza SiNi. Saying it was doesn't make it so. You don't provoke a country whose military might you are well aware of for six years and not expect a response. And that response did not create a massacre, (though doubtless Hamas would wish it so.) Thus, on moral grounds alone Hamas is also culpable. It is beyond belief that the world isn't screaming for transparency in Gaza.

As for Israel being a moral army. Forget league tables; the fact that we cannot, dare not ask Russia, China, the Middle East, Far East and others in between, for such transparency tends to lend weight to the argument that it is moral.

We know real atrocities occur in many countries as a result of war, drug wars, corrupt leadership and religion. Yet only Israel creates a feeding frenzy. It's bizarre and unhealthy.

Mike

phil: Investigative reporter Dave Lindorff writes: 'My father, who was a marine in WWII, tells of how at boot camp at Camp LeJeune, he and his comrades were trained systematically to consider the "Japs" to be subhuman, and to be ready to kill at a moment's notice and without mercy. The same was done to the draftees being sent to Vietnam, and it is true of the troops trained to “liberate” Iraq in the 2003 invasion of that country.

The point is, Israel's IDF is no better or worse than America's military. Given the level of mutual hatred between Israeli and Palestinian, I have no doubt that while there may well be humanists among IDF draftees, who manage to maintain their humanity despite their situation, many in the IDF are as ready to blow away women and children in Gaza without a moment's remorse as Hamas rocketeers are happy to hit a kindergarten in Israel. That is what soldiers get conditioned to do. It is not even their fault. It is the fault of a leadership that wants this to happen'.

Perhaps the 'warrior' mentality of both the US and Israeli military should heed the words of Col Tim Collins on the eve of taking his soldiers into combat in Iraq in 2003....'It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts. I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them
If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family. The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please.

If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer.
You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest -- for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform nor our nation.

Ros

What are we to make of the press's obsession with Israel? Why is it that when an Israeli soldier apparently makes a mistake in the heat of battle and shoots 'unarmed' civilians, this is then the front page lead of the Independent and repeated in every other newspaper?

Dominic Waghorn at Sky News has to scrape the barrel bottom and produce 'noteworthy' journalism: Israeli soldiers wear t-shirts with politically incorrect cartoons. Phew!

Additionally, The Daily Mail writes that a rabbi tells his soldiers to 'kill gentiles'?

I used to think it was a drip, drip feed. It's now becoming a torrent. Only Israel is scrutinised like this. No other country or army.

Speaking to a former BBC journalist recently who was sent to Iraq, she told me that they were accompanied everywhere and only allowed to publish what the MOD told them to.

As Penny above writes so cogently, there are real atrocities occuring in real time. Do we hear of them? I'll bet that they are far, far worse than anything that happens vis a vis Israel but they're not news. Maybe it's because they're not Jews.

Henry Sidgwick

There is interest in what the state of Israel does because it is sanctioned and funded by the West, and the West, or more accurately the US, is therefore well-placed to influence it.

There is similar interest in the plight of Tibet, but much less chance of the West influencing China. We can do more about some tragedies than others.

The fact that there is so much about Israel and not about the US and UK in Iraq and Afghanistan, or about the Sinhalese in the Tamil north of Sri Lanka, or about the Indians in Kashmir, or other similar conflicts is in general, I acknowledge, puzzling and shaming. In the context of this blog it is not so puzzling. Melanie Phillips has three topics: Israel/political Islamism/anti-Semitism. MMR, and the climate. She concentrates most frequently on the first, and so most of the comment is also about the first.

china doll

Penny - you put your favourite army on an ethical par with Russia and China? Set your standards high don't you?

phil

Mike what is the point of addressing this to me ? I have every confidence in the IDF behaving in accordance with the highest moral standards ,and the government of Israel too.There will always be those that break the rules and will prove the point you want to make -I will tell once again the objectives of Israel and that is to be a light unto nations and you will never persuade me of anything different. I suggest you go and tell the people who run hamas and hesbullah of your rules and let me know their answers -I hope you will not risk it in the flesh -Ladbrokes would not offer you good odds on your survival .Maybe your friend fisk will go in your stead or even galloway when he gets back from Canada :):)

china doll

Penny - you put your favourite army on an ethical par with Russia and China? Set your standards high don't you?
Ros - what planet are you on? You really think that the British army isn't under a similar scrutiny to Israel? From Northern Ireland Bloody Sunday, right up to Iraq, if there's a war crime committed by our boys, or even the sniff of one, it's on every front page in the country. Even when there's bullying within the ranks, for heaven's sake. That's how you hold your army to account. And, yes, it can be painful. It's a measure of commitment to the idea of civilization. And you, plainly, are happy to remain mediaeval.

Gautam

It's war going on in West Asia. The Israeli soldiers' admission of civilian casualties may embarrass IDF. But, there's no getting away from the fact that civilian casualties are inevitable in any full-scale conflict. Indeed, it's always the cost of civilian lives that determines the winner and loser in a conflict situation; death of soldiers is just a precursor to the wider destruction that wars generate.

The focus in such a situation should be on the cause and the resolution of the conflict; not fruitless discussion on the consequences of the conflict, which is such a Non sequitur. If the cost of civilian lives in the Gaza conflict impels Hamas to adopt a more reasonable posture, then the Israeli action there would not have entirely failed. I remember reading in NYT a Hezbollah militant say that had they known the Israelis would have pounded Lebanon so remorselessly, they would not have provoked their "enemy" with rocket attacks. What this militant said may be dismissed as sophistry, but it does indicate that a disproportionately heavy response is not entirely useless. Indeed, its only sense lies in the fact that it's necessitated by the provocation. Israelis are not the ones drawing first blood in the West Asian conflict.

All said, it's tragic that Israel is having to fight so hard for its survival. And it tells us a lot about the sort of leadership the Arab people are throwing up. One wonders how many more rounds of conflicts it would take for the Arab people to realize that their Israel policy is all wrong and that they must accept certain home truths in order to avoid any more wastage of human lives.

Carl

Ros, your "friend" lied to you. Also note that Israeli soldiers are not shooting civilians by mistake.

phil

Henry Sidgwick
March 21st, 2009 3:13pm was that your answer to what I wrote to you or did you ignore me ?which is of course your privilege -it certainly did not provide a reason for the difference in behaviour of the protagonists .

patricia

That is one of Melanie's best posts.

Except for the ones where the earth is flat

davo

"and it is true of the troops trained to “liberate” Iraq in the 2003 invasion of that country."

Are you sure?

Henry Sidgwick

We are told that Israel was provoked, that Israel was attacked first, that Israel was only defending itself. As on previous occasions, this does not bear scrutiny.

Last summer, Ehud Barak said publicly that the ceasefire had brought a halt to the Qassam missiles. (At the time, as it happens, he was involved in the planning a full-scale invasion of Gaza.)

In November, Shin Bet told the Israeli cabinet that Hamas had been successful in maintaining the ceasefire, and was seeking its extension: it wanted Israel to fulfil its previous undertakings to open the border crossings and lift its blockade, and it wanted the ceasefire extended to the West Bank.

Israel then authorised a military incursion into Gaza (to add to the over-flights and sonic booms and so on, which are just business as usual).

Hamas were criminal and reckless in responding to the provocation. But it is humbug to repeat that Israel is simply defending itself.

Truthtriumphs

Wm.Hazlitt.
"Civilian deaths in Gaza the fault of Hamas or an unavoidable but unfortunate accident of war?"

Obviously the former.
Don't wage a war of aggression and attack people without provocation and there will be no war.
It was good enough for the foreign minister of Egypt to put ALL the blame on Hamas so why is it not good enough for you? Or do you know something that he does not?
We all know the answer to that one.

Wm. Hazlitt

Not an unavoidable but unfortunate accident of war. And certainly in large part the fault of the provoacateur - see the last contribution from Henry Sidgwick, and the pattern of Israel's military actions for decades past.

To maintain the false assertion of Israel's victimhood, we are now drafting in the foreign minister of a country as dependent on US money as Israel - of course Egypt is going to say what it is required to say.

Mike

phil: If you believe that 'Israel is the light unto Nations' then I suggest you develop a responsibility of critising it when you believe it is wrong. Simple. To act otherwise is a betrayal of all that you hold dear. Until such time, Israel is on a 'merry-go-round' to Hell. Think about it.

Penny

China Doll

"Penny - you put your favourite army on an ethical par with Russia and China? Set your standards high don't you?"

Spin is neither debate or argument. Nor are ad.hom attacks.

jose

you are right, not other army in the world take such pains to avoid killing civilians , that's a fact. Just remind British and American bombings on Belgrad.
Haaretz is the pravda

phil

Mike
March 22nd, 2009 1:46am
your quote
phil: If you believe that 'Israel is the light unto Nations' then I suggest you develop a responsibility of critising it when you believe it is wrong. Simple. To act otherwise is a betrayal of all that you hold dear. Until such time, Israel is on a 'merry-go-round' to Hell. Think about it.

I don,t need to do I? sidgewick ,hazlitt and co purveyors of propaganda to the desperate, ably assisted by senor fisk and delivered by their copy boy mike do all that is needed.

Edward in the USA

It is well known that hamas fighters, like hizbullah fighters wear civilian clothing.

An 18 year old hamas fighter with a beard and an AK47 is NOT a child, despite the claims of hamas.

When Gazas are killed by booby traps set for the IDF, hamas claims that Israel killed the civilians.

When hamas use ambulances to ferry fighters and weapons, is that a War Crime?

Noah Aaron Bashi

The left wing liberal European fascists and their media are creating propaganda for Israel, Israel never did anything wrong accept protecting their people and there land, and nothing is wrong with that

Viva Israel!

barackobama

Gautam
You say: "One wonders how many more rounds of conflicts it would take for the Arab people to realize that their Israel policy is all wrong and that they must accept certain home truths in order to avoid any more wastage of human lives."

Can you say what you believe should be the right policy for the Arab people?

Truthtriumphs

Wm.Hazlitt.
Goebbels would have been proud of you.
Just who "drafted in" the foreign minister of Egypt?
And by the way, don't compare Egypt to Israel.
The former hasn't contributed much to human development except for increasing their population by about 1,000,000 year on year.
Israel, in contrast, has changed the world for the better with its innumerable contributions to science, technology and medicine, including the development of the microchip, without which you could not churn out your ignorant, hate-fuelled drivel on your computer.
You should also know that American aid to Israel has been paid back in kind in very many ways.
The relationship between Israel and America is symbiotic.
That between Egypt and America is that of parasite and host.

beloved

Thank you, Melanie, for countering biased reports with sober caution.

It looks to me like the Palestinians do not really want their own country; they want Israel. They want a ready-made nation that they just have to plug in, as an electrical cord. All they need to do is kill all the Israelis and move in.

Truthtriumphs

Henry Sidgwick.
You say that the line that Israel was "only defending itself" does not bear scrutiny, so let's scrutinise.
Why was Hamas universally condemned for breaking the ceasefire in November 2008?
Because sane people with any sense of right and wrong realise that to demand borders be open to facilitate the enemy to smuggle in munitions and terrorists to kill innocent civilians in Israel (using Red Cross ambulances etc. etc) is ludicrous.
The six Hamas operatives taken out by Israel were about to abduct Israeli soldiers via tha tunnel network.
It's called self-defence and it is what we would demand of our own government in the same situation. You seem to enjoy privileged access into the workings of Shin Bet---how so?

Would you also like to tell us why Hamas/Fatah have been bombarding and aiming their ordnance at peaceful Israeli civilians for 7 years, increasing it to furious proportions when Israel withdrew unconditionally and unilaterally from every centimetre of Gaza even leaving behind an excellent infrastructure, which was trashed within days?
It rather exposes the myth of "land for peace" doesn't it?
The real humbug is the sanitisation of the criminal terrorist organisations of Hamas, Hezbollah etc. by apologists like yourself, and trying to dignify their barbarism with bona fide motives.

Penny

I guess this will be my fourth or fifth time of saying that if an army or its soldiers behave in an unethical manner then it is right and proper that they are called to account.

I have noticed some posts taking people to task for defending Israel when they are in the wrong. I also notice that the rationale behind such a comment is that to continue to offer blind support detracts from the credibility of the supporter. I can't argue with that.

Might I respectfully point out however, that in this case, the accusers are being a little hasty too; as yet, the results of the inquiry are not yet known so I feel this 'taking to task' is a little 'pot calling kettle black'.

What we are all reacting to is the media.

Perhaps we should wait for the outcome of the legal team returning from Gaza and the internal procedures of the IDF rather than the judgment and verdict from the press.

Si, N

Penny, it’s like I said; you’re not paying attention – the reason people challenge Israel here is because Melanie Phillips obsessively apologises for that state. Why must you insist on attempting to deflect discussion away from the subject of the thread by referring to conflicts elsewhere and bemoaning the seeming lack of concern thereof? The fact is, you have no idea about the extent of my or anybody else’s concern about other conflicts. When Phillips produces a blog about a conflict elsewhere then maybe you’d see the extent of such concerns. In the meantime pay attention.

Again you trot out the nonsense about Hamas provoking a ‘country whose military might you are well aware of for six years and not expect a response’. Since you are not paying attention, I refer you back to Henry Sidgwick’s excellent post on this thread:

'[s]ix thousand Hamas rockets feature largely. Hamas has indeed launched thousands of Qassam missiles. As an illustration, in the period from September 2005 to June 2006, Hamas and others launched approximately one thousand missiles. Israel launched between seven and nine thousand shells. These relative magnitudes are in the public domain, generally known, and not disputed, and apply over any period you wish to choose.

The orders of magnitude are similarly well-known for deaths. In the six months to June 2006, eighty Palestinians were killed. In the five years to June 2006, eight Israelis were killed. In the recent invasion, independent human rights organisations estimate the Palestinian death toll at 1300. Israel puts its own death toll at 13. Again, pick any period and you will get a similar result.'

I’d make one addition: Hamas’ projectiles contain for the most part low grade explosive (fertiliser), whereas Israel uses military grade high explosives – so not only has Israel fired far more ordnance into Gaza, but the effects are more profound – as Henry’s stats show. Can you grasp that? Basically, the notion that Israel patiently sat on its hands in the face of gross provocation is simply propaganda parroted by apologists.

1.4 million people - more than half under the age of 16 – are imprisoned, denied access to essential medical supplies and brought to the brink of starvation over a period of almost 2 years as a result of official Israeli policy – Israel then turns its considerable ‘military might’ on that captive population – and through implementation of the ‘Dahiya Strategy’ claims over 1,300 (mostly innocent civilian) lives, I call that a massacre.

A truly ‘bizarre and unhealthy’ thing is your ability to identify atrocities in other parts of the world whilst failing wholesale to recognise the atrocities committed by Israel.

Si, N

Penny, it’s like I said; you’re not paying attention – the reason people challenge Israel here is because Melanie Phillips obsessively apologises for that state. Why must you insist on attempting to deflect discussion away from the subject of the thread by referring to conflicts elsewhere and bemoaning the seeming lack of concern thereof? The fact is, you have no idea about the extent of my or anybody else’s concern about other conflicts. When Phillips produces a blog about a conflict elsewhere then maybe you’d see the extent of such concerns. In the meantime pay attention.

Again you trot out the nonsense about Hamas provoking a ‘country whose military might you are well aware of for six years and not expect a response’. Since you are not paying attention, I refer you back to Henry Sidgwick’s excellent post on this thread:

'[s]ix thousand Hamas rockets feature largely. Hamas has indeed launched thousands of Qassam missiles. As an illustration, in the period from September 2005 to June 2006, Hamas and others launched approximately one thousand missiles. Israel launched between seven and nine thousand shells. These relative magnitudes are in the public domain, generally known, and not disputed, and apply over any period you wish to choose.

The orders of magnitude are similarly well-known for deaths. In the six months to June 2006, eighty Palestinians were killed. In the five years to June 2006, eight Israelis were killed. In the recent invasion, independent human rights organisations estimate the Palestinian death toll at 1300. Israel puts its own death toll at 13. Again, pick any period and you will get a similar result.'

I’d make one addition: Hamas’ projectiles contain for the most part low grade explosive (fertiliser), whereas Israel uses military grade high explosives – so not only has Israel fired far more ordnance into Gaza, but the effects are more profound – as Henry’s stats show. Can you grasp that? Basically, the notion that Israel patiently sat on its hands in the face of gross provocation is simply propaganda parroted by apologists.

1.4 million people - more than half under the age of 16 – are imprisoned, denied access to essential medical supplies and brought to the brink of starvation over a period of almost 2 years as a result of official Israeli policy – Israel then turns its considerable ‘military might’ on that captive population – and through implementation of the ‘Dahiya Strategy’ claims over 1,300 (mostly innocent civilian) lives, I call that a massacre.

A truly ‘bizarre and unhealthy’ thing is your ability to identify atrocities in other parts of the world whilst failing wholesale to recognise the atrocities committed by Israel.

secondgeneration

Melanie is as correct on Israel as she is on evolution and the Measles Mumps Rubella vaccine.

Augustus

In an interview which Fatah leader Mohammed Dahlan gave on PA television on 18th March, as recorded by Palestinian Media Watch, he not only appealed to Hamas not to recognize the State of Israel, but also says quite clearly that Fatah (the party, remember, that forms the PA) does not recognize Israel.
At the end of the interview he says that the PA is working with the international community to get aid. Could there ever be a clearer example of speaking with a forked tongue? In Arabic they say that they will never recognize Israel, but in English they talk about peace just in order to get sympathy and aid. Aid which, incidently, costs the EU alone nearly 500m per year.

Leslie

HarleyDavidson:
"George Galloway, British MP, Banned from Canada!"

That"infandous street-corner Cromwell" you mean? :)

Gert

Trying to get something posted here is like playing the lottery. Alternatively, it may simply depend on the weather, not sure. I'm not accusing anyone of censorship here, maybe it's just plain incompetence because my posts maybe critical of Mel and her clique of blind admirers but they're never abusive, not even remotely.
What I wanted to draw attention to in my last posting attempt was 'The Most Moral T-shirts in the World':
http://tinyurl.com/moralts
I think it's highly relevant to Mel's uncritical defense of the IDF's conduct.
But perhaps some editor/moderator at The Spectator thinks differently...

Neil

Galloway ran rings around his rather unpleasant Canadian antagonist in an interview on Friday's Channel 4 News. More power to you George - free speech will not be stifled by religious minorities.

Carl

Right Augustus, are you are fluent in Arabic or do you rely on the "absolutely true and unbiased" translations supplied by MEMRI?

C.Gee

Si,N, Henry Sidgwick,
It is cretinous to apply proportionality arguments to asymmetrical warfare. It is morally obtuse to apply the proportionality argument as evidence of relative moral strength. The PA, Hamas and Fatah, are genocidal closed-society death-cults with low-tech weapons (though willing to upgrade). Israel is an open democracy with hi-tech weapons. You might want the Palestinians to destroy Israel, but you cannot exculpate the genocidal intention by pointing to the Palestinian's quaint fertilizer weapons (and ignoring the fact that they are trying to upgrade). You might want to believe that Israel wishes to destroy Palestinians, but Israel's military superiority is not evidence of genocidal intent, but quite the reverse - as there has been no genocide.

C.Gee

Carl,
What do you rely on for statements made by Arabs?

phil

Leslie there are some who will be greatly relieved (no pun intended as you will soon see) to see our gorgeous george in the news -all the guys called John and certainly the most unfortunate family of Thomas Crapper ,because I hear there is a new song entering into the charts .it is based on the Peter Kay song AMARILLO - the new hit (again no pun) goes something like this --"-is this the way to galloway" etc etc and is hummed or whistled by anyone who is in danger of being caught short -so all those milk sellers and catsuit manufacturers will have to find a new man to sponsor ,language has moved on -where is the galloway has entered our everyday speech .,and neil if he was running in rings perhaps we have cast a new light upon his movements

C.Gee

Neil,
Islam, Galloway's respectful partner, is the only religious minority seeking to stifle free speech. (See recent action in UN by Muslim and Arab nations). Galloway's speech is never stifled, sadly. Canada banned him because he gave money to Hamas. Why did he give money to Hamas? It must be because Hamas is a great supporter of freedom, as set out in its charter.

Donna Gardier

Penny as always couldn’t agree more with all your comments.

As an aside, you mentioned Russia and Putin and it got me thinking.

My comment to Kiffa regarding the massacre in Ossetia at Beslan was to try and paint the picture I had in my mind of a striking example where border/gateway/boundary control was overrun so easily. The carnage at the security gate was hellish enough and unfortunately what happened when the terrorists got through into the school I cannot bear to mention again here. The regulars on this blog have seen the harrowing horrific details and they provide enough of a reason for anyone in the world to remember/realise/accept that we cannot have tea and biscuits or sit down and negotiate happily with Islamic terrorists. I am sure the police at that security post were alert and characteristically uncompromisingly Russian, but my point is, that was not enough. To Kiffa I was saying please be aware. Hamas are fundamentally Islamic terrorists and surely we shouldn’t be expecting soldiers or security operatives on Israeli borders to have extra sensory perception. We can’t expect the luxury of them being highly skilled at combining social niceties with being alert enough to make life or death decisions in a nanosecond.

Now to Putin and Russia. As I understand it, Russia is made up of more than a hundred different ethnic groups and many of them are Muslims who have lived on Russian soil for generations. A lot of them fought the bloody battles for the Red Army when altogether the nation lost 15 to 20 million of their countrymen and women keeping Hitler out during WWII. It seems, generally speaking, Russian Muslims have in the main lived normal moderate lives alongside orthodox Russians without, until more recently, resorting to digging up and obeying and enacting ancient out of context instructions from the Koran to justify an unbalanced sense of entitlement to a rarified existence which includes the right to overrun and dominate the world. Which I believe is a fairly accurate description of radical Islamic beliefs.

As a by product of failed communism, the ability of radical Islamicists is disrupting the balance and inveigling Sharia law into a lot of these communities under a convincing guise of providing solutions to the age old problems Russia has with poverty education law etc. Madrasses have been sprouting up all over the shop and their universities are being heavily influenced by radical islamicists. Sound familiar?

And to quote Putin….

'If extremist forces manage to get a hold in the Caucasus,'' Mr. Putin said last year, ''this infection may spread up the Volga River, spread to other republics, and we either face the full Islamization of Russia, or we will have to agree to Russia's division into several independent states.''…end of quote.

I'm inclined to think it is in the best interests of the world that they are aware of a problem they have to tackle realistically.

At Beslan the Islamic radical warlord Shamil Basayev was at the root of it. He managed to coral the Chechnyan Muslims headed by the rebel president Of Chechnya, Aslan Maskhadov, radicalised and buying into the Islamic agenda in a big way! Hey what a result, Beslan one of the worst atrocities of modern times.

Russia during WWII lost 15 to 20 million of its people fighting to keep Hitler from breaching their boundaries, yet now it is being successfully infiltrated by Islamic power mongers. An Islamic warlord manages to convince Mashayev an ex Russian army general to join in and carry out an attack on a school!

We in the West are only too aware of how hardened Russians are and how ruthless they can be and maybe their history explains the reasons and it can be understood at some level. I see it as positive that the Russian authorities feel the last thing they need is Islamic fundamentalism factored in to their complicated mix of ethnic groups, or indeed a mass population overwhelmed with the destructive contaminating beliefs and extreme identities of radical Islam.

Even after the results of the atrocities at Beslan we still saw the politically correct smokescreens obfuscating everything when the Russian authorities were hindered in bringing the miscreants to book. Mashayev’s spokesman was given asylum in the UK! The US only conceded that the Russians should be allowed to get him back and punish him when they deigned eventually to decree that he should not be regarded “as anybody’s interlocutor”. Is anybody capable these days of saying he is now regarded as the spokesman for an evil murdering nutcase. You would think if anything was going to cause the politically correct smokescreens to fall away at all it would be what happened in the school hall at Beslan.
Putin has such a massive task in trying to stop Russia becoming a group of Islamic states doesn’t he? Is he ever going to start pussyfooting around now and turn into a glowing example of political correctness? Surely it is a luxury to think we can expect him to? Also I think I’m correct in saying that 40% of the Russian army is Muslim, so I sincerely hope the many moderate Muslims in Russia retain their marbles, and even more so, that a very high proportion of the Russian army have not yet been radicalized!
I realize this is a somewhat simplistic view and I’m sure there will be many who would be able to point out flaws in my thinking, and do point away, because I am keen to get a better grasp of it all.

Gautam

barackobama,
You ask what I think should be the right policy for the Arabs towards Israel. To keep it simple: Arabs must realize that after Israel was created through an elaborate system of international consensus -- a consensus, incidentally, built on the mass graves of the Jews in the snowfields of Europe -- they had no moral or ethical justification to attack Israel at the very time it was created. But Egypt, Syria and Jordan fell into the trap of cold war politics. With the since defunct USSR supplying weapons to the Arabs to make them fight their war against the Americans, West Asia soon turned a pawn in the grand game of cold war politics.

The Arabs must realize that the world has since changed. America is a power on the decline, even as, as Fareed Zakaria says, it faces the rise of the rest. Sooner or later the US would like to give up on the project to "save" Israel -- a project that may not even be necessary as Israel is perfectly capable of looking after itself -- at which point the Arabs would have to negotiate with Israel. One of the bases of these negotiations would be that Israel's right to existence is non-negotiable.

Once the fundamental issue is settled, then the rest is a matter of modalities, of adjustments and compromises. But for that to happen, both Israel and Arabs must w a n t peace. Has that stage been reached? Don't have the answer...

Henry Sidgwick

"Truth"triumphs,
Hamas was "universally" condemned in Israel and in the West (although even there "universally" is coming it a bit strong).

If Israel had no intention of opening the borders to allow essentials in and traded goods out, it should not have entered into a ceasefire agreement which required it to do so.

I have no privileged access to Shin Bet, I read the Israeli press.

Military commentators have pointed out that the tunnel could be dealt with more effectively from the Israeli end.

From your argument it follows that Hamas should have invaded Israel to take out the artillery positions, tank parks and airforce bases where the build-up for Barak's planned invasion were clearly evident.

To repeat, Barak, while planning a full-scale invasion of Gaza, admitted that the ceasefire was working. Shin Bet confirmed as much to the Israeli cabinet and reported that Hamas wished to extend the ceasefire. Thereafter Israel launched a military incursion into Gaza. Since it finished its full-scale military operations, for now, except for killing the odd person here and there, Israel has been negotiating with Hamas - something it could have done in November.

On the withdrawal from Gaza, I refer you to the senior advisor to both Ariel Sharon and Ehud Barak, Dov Weisglass, who in a moment of frankness divulged that the purpose was to stop the implementation of the "road map" and scupper any possibility of a Palestinian "State".

On the reason for the criminal attacks by Hamas on innocent civilians, I refer you to C. Gee on assymetric warfare, and to the founding fathers of the Israeli state, Weizmann, Jabotinsky, and Ben Gurion, all of whom are on record as saying that if they were Palestinians faced with the Zionist onslaught they too would fight with whatever means to the bitter end to save their homeland. The founding fathers were clearly more honest and big-hearted, and more willing to acknowledge the methods required to establish a Jewish state on the whole land of Israel.

The real humbug is those who rejoice that Israel enjoys the spoils of war, but prefer to pretend to be ignorant of the means used to acquire them.

Wm. Hazlitt

Truthtriumphs (if only that were so)

If you remember, you drafted in the Egyptian foreign minister. You seemed to think his opinion had some weight.

Israel and Egypt both receive considerable aid from the US.

The Egyptian regime is undemocratic, to the point where the Muslim Brotherhood are one of the few forces for democracy in the country. Hamas is an offshoot of the Brotherhood. The Egyptian regime, including its foreign minster, are therefore not keen to encourage Hamas in any way. I would give the foreign minister's opinions less wieght than you appear to.

What payment in kind has Israel made for the Americans' billions? other than military bases and a willingness to train and sell arms to America's less savoury allies over the years.

Do you not find it embarrassing to reach for Goebbels whenever you can't think of a decent argument?

Henry Sidgwick

C. Gee,

If you try very hard, and produce a rational argument, supported by evidence from the real world, then discussion may be possible.

stanley Jerusalem

If you want a blatant example of Israel's disproportionality look at the offer of 450 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli gaols for just one Israeli - Gilad Shalit. Those Israeli bastards! They know how to hit a propaganda war when it's down, don't they?
Still, Hamas stood up to them and refused.

logdon

The day I see a jihadi style execution video with all the deliberate barbarism and subhuman zeal which they seem to relish posted by Israel or the IDF I'll agree with the malcontents on this page. Until then their case is pointless.

Colindale

It would be comforting for Jews in the Diaspora to believe that there is hope in and for Israel. But Israel is on a downward path to the self-destruction of the amazing dream of Theodor Herzl whose vision was for a Jewish state free from European anti_semitism and the pogroms of the nineteenth century where Jews could live in concert with the existing indigenous Arab populations. But in the last two decades that vision has been shattered by power-hungry, self-serving, corrupt politicians who have dehumanised the neighbouring peoples. Now we have the terrifying news that the Rabbinate has encouraged the wanton killings in Gaza of women and children and the civilian population in general - as if they were insects to be destroyed. That is what happened in Rwanda. There is an imperative for the world to ensure that this unbridled racism is stopped and stopped now. Those responsible for war crimes must be brought before the international court that was established to hear such charges of crimes against humanity. To do nothing now and to continue to support these extreme right wing elements in Israel is to collude with war crime.

Jenny

The George Galloway Version of Amarillo

Overseas readers may be unfamiliar with this song, so I recommend opening the song in another internet window and singing along as you read the version dedicated to Georgie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW5eUA0I938

By the way, here’s George in his leotard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY7P3B72n8E

There’s so much we could say about George, but I think his recent trip to Gaza when he was attacked with stones by Egyptians who are fed up with Hamas stealing the aid convoys meant for ordinary Palestinians makes it a good place to set our song.
www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3423966/it-couldnt-have-happened-to-a-nicer-bunch.thtml

Ready? Let’s go:

When the day is dawning
On a Middle Eastern morning
Oh, how I long to be there
Saluting Saddam’s ‘indefatigability‘, yeah

I’m with Yvonne Ridley
And a few others like that.
They think my leotard looks pretty
And Gaza’s where we’re headed at.

Chorus :
Is this this the way to Hamastillo?
I’m full hot air, like a dildo
Dreaming dreams of Hamastillo
Where sweet jihadists wait for me.

Show me the way to Hamastillo
We can’t fit all this in the tunnerillo
Get the crocodile tears ready to go
And tell the jihadists to wait for me.

Qassam, fire, fire - bang, bang.
Qassam, fire, fire - bang, bang.
Qassam, fire, fire - bang, bang.
And mainstream media look away.

Verse:
There’s a terrorist tunnelling,
Just look at the arms they‘re smuggling.
Oh how they love the shariah,
And the grovelling Western media.

Just beyond the highway,
There’s a terrorist campaign,
Just read Article 7 of the charter
And all will become plain.

Chorus :
Is this this the way to Hamastillo?
Was that a stone I saw someone just throw?
How much further do we have to go
To where the jihadists wait for me?

Show me the way to Hamastillo
Where the hell did Yvonne go?
Don’t leave me on my own, no.
And tell the jihadists to wait for me.

Qassam, fire, fire - bang, bang.
Qassam, fire, fire - bang, bang.
Qassam, fire, fire - bang, bang.
And mainstream media look away.

(repeat the line about Hamas’ Qassam rockets 6,000 times)

War is Peace

Donna Gardiner,
Any support given by the US and UK to Chechens or any of Putin's enemies may have a more practical motive than political correctness. It is likely to be part of the 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' philosophy which assisted the rise of the Taliban.
There are of course solid humanitarian reasons for giving asylum to many of Putin's victims-it should be remembered that the guy kills journalists.
The conduct of the Russian state in the Chechen war is bound to have angered Russian muslims, and in the kind of state run by Putin, a scapegoat will always be required- be it oligarchs, muslims, jews, or foreigners. Its depressing that Russians have to settle for a near-dictatorship and that Europe is too timid and dependent on Russia for energy to be critical of him. A healthy democracy in Russia would be the most effective means of preventing radical Islam gaining a foothold.

Truthtriumphs

Wm.Hazlitt.
"The Muslim Brotherhood are one of the few forces for democracy in the country".
Don't you mean "is one of the--".
Muslim Brotherhood is singular, not plural. A bit ironic to call yourself Hazlitt, don't you think?
I certainly don't need a lecture from you on the history of the Brotherhood.
Suffice to say that anyone with the most rudimentary knowledge of the appalling Muslim Brotherhood and its offshoots would ridicule your absurd assertion that it is "democratic".
I HAVE presented decent arguments but you cannot answer them.

Oh, and by the way, truth always does triumph in the end, sooner or later.
Why don't you read the account of the Dreyfus affair, in particular Theodor Herzl's own testimony from his position in the press enclosure covering Dreyfus' public humiliation?
It was the "winds of hate" from the supposedly enlightened press corps (a bit like today) that so shocked Herzl, and was the defining moment in his metamorphosis from secular uncommitted Jew to crusading Zionist.
The rest is history.
I repeat, Goebbels would have been proud of you.

beloved

re: Measles Mumps Rubella vaccine.

Second Generation, what does Melanie say about the MMR?

Straydingo

Si, N<

Melanie Philips has every right to state and defend her opinions on Israel.

Considering that the vast majority of MSM coverage on Israel is weighted against it (almost bordering on Anti Semitic) the public needs to have an alternate voice articulating a different perspective so as to ensure that there is some semblance of a health debate being had.

The fools that are crying for Israel's blood as a result of the POSSIBLE actions of a few IDF soldiers are so ridicules that I struggle to even understand how one debates with people that are completely detachment from reality.

Any one with the most basic understanding of history is able to comprehend that no one individual, society or country is perfect – now if it is found that IDF personal intentionally targeted and killed civilians then they deserve to have the full weight of the law thrown at them.

The fact is these stories are being used as a cover to enable those that hate Israel to maintain their emotionally charged and factually deficient attacks on the only lighthouse democracy in the Middle East.

secondgeneration

Melanie thinks that Barack Obama is a "fifth columnist in the White House". She thinks evolution is "merely a theory". She thinks any one who criticises Israel is an anti-semite, and unsurprisingly she thinks that the MMR vaccine causes autism. Ben Golding Doctor and science writer has called English graduate Melanie "the MMR sceptic who just doesn't understand science".

phil

Jenny wonderful .I hope you can copyright it -I woke up in the middle of the night and started crying with laughter when I first thought of it .I was too shy to print the words I came up with but I love your ,s -A little humour when we are reading such hate filled posts here does us no harm -what really surprises me is that the hazlitts and sidgewicks come here to preach to those that know what distortions they try to tell us .they like the laird and carl ,never forgetting the loveable sin must like a little humiliation ,maybe they dress in leather when reading our opinions of them .

Penny

Oh come on dear SiNi! There are hundreds of forums and blog spots where you can interact with like-minded people. You don't come here seeking agreement, my friend, so enough of the pretence at outrage and 'deflection' malarkey.

You are quite right, though, SiNi; I don't know your views about the various conflicts around the world. But I ask the question from time to time so it's hardly my fault if you choose not to answer.

If some people bring 'Human Rights' into their comments or, like young George, sign off with 'The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University' it isn't unreasonable to ask for their views on Darfur, the Congo, Sri Lanka - and so on.

I have made my position clear with regard to the major point of Melanie's article: breaches of military conduct - if proven - should result in disciplinary action.

Now, dear SiNi, you may take me to task for what you believe is my 'unhealthy and bizarre' failure to recognise wholesale atrocities committed by Israel: You and I have had several interesting exchanges over time, but I don't feel that your position is strong here given that you are strangely silent when I mention the need for an investigation and condemnation of Hamas for criminal activities against their own people. Note that well; not Sderot, not Israeli's but their own people.

You may use the word 'massacre' and you may quote figures of 1300, but Hamas stands accused of fighting in civilian areas, storing weapons in public buildings, having HQ's in hospitals, using children as human shields, failing to devise evacuation policies, summary beatings, torture and executions - and otherwise abusing those who should have their protection. How many of the 1300 you quote may have died at Hamas' hands?

I've lived in Israel SiNi - I've personally experienced and seen enough to know that this one-sided view of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is nonsense. When you mock the notion of provocation, I would respectfully request that you spend a little time there and prove me wrong.

You know my views: The Palestinian people are used and abused by their own leaders whose aims have nothing to do with the welfare of the ordinary Palestinian citizen and who, like Arafat, steal or misappropriate money that could improve their lives. Is there anything more despicable than Arafat promising a hospital and using the money to build a Casino in Jericho? In full sight of those for whom that hospital was promised and greatly needed? How many millions did Arafat steal from his own people to keep his private plane, his Swiss bank account and support his wife's extravgances?

The Palestinian children are indoctrinated into hatred - not just for Israel but for the West - and attend summer schools where they learn how to be suicide bombers. According to Raymond Ibrahim and others, they are fed distortions of the adhab al-qarb (Torments of the Tomb)to scare them into martyrdom (putting child abuse and inhumane treatment to one side, SiNi,the involvement of a psychiatrist wouldn't go amiss here.) The people are kept in an enforced refugee status because their Arab brothers refuse them citizenship. Some because they feel they are too much trouble and others because it serves to maintains the conflict and bring in aid - some of which is spent on weapons. When they were handed Gaza, their leaders ordered the infrastructure to be bulldozed. You speak freely of atrocities, SiNi, but these leaders - past and present - are hardly blameless.

I have mentioned before that I know a little of refugee status; my husband's family were amongst the near-million, forgotten refugees expelled by Arab nations from 1950's onwards. They lost their homeland, their homes, money, assets - even their jewellery was taken from them at the port. All they were allowed to take was a suitcase containing a change of clothing. No right to return, no reparation. They had to make lives for themselves and not one of those near-million have strapped bombs to themselves and killed others. Many people I speak to are surprised; so quiet are these near-million that few know they ever existed.

I'll close by saying that my position is unchanged; obsessing about and placing all the blame on Israel will not help the Palestinian people. A little more attention to the conduct of their own leaders along with some policies designed to get them out of this on-going refugee status just might - although as I write I know it's an unlikely scenario. We may hope and pray for peace talks and a two-state solution, but, having read and listened to Nonie Darwish (daughter of the founder of the Fedayeen, Lt. General Mustafa Hafez, and one-time resident of Gaza),Arab leaders are unlikely to agree. She says that when signing the peace treaty with Arafat, Sadat confided in his close colleagues that he had signed his own death warrant. Sadly prophetic.

Penny

Thanks, Donna, for a really interesting and informative post. I really can't imagine Putin pussy-footing around anything much; it doesn't sound hopeful, does it?

That said, I watched an online video of a Baharaini cleric whose voice of modernity and reason is so good to hear.
If you get a moment, listen to him at:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/200...363wmv&ak=null

Wm. Hazlitt

Truthtriumphs,
When you produce an argument, I will give it the attention it deserves. If you persist in puerile slurs there is nothing to discuss, and little obvious point in your contributions, other than to teach me one part of the grammar of collective nouns.

phil

Penny and all of you who tried debating with the person known as mv on "the voice of decency" thread a little way back may like to read my comments to him which are a tiny bit late in being posted there ,my fault I was biting my tongue -Penny you were your usual kind and polite self ,you may assume I believe he was not .regards to you all .

Henry Sidgwick

C. Gee,

I owe you an apology. Amidst the bile and the abuse, there was the germ of an argument: that the outcome does not matter, only the intention.

So, if Hamas sets off a rocket with genocide in their hearts, and the rocket murders one person, they are as guilty as if they carried out their intended genocide. If an IAF pilot drops a cluster bomb on a busy marketplace, because he considers it apporpriate self-defence, he is guiltless.

There is some truth in what you say. Courts, for instance, do try to establish intent. But they also look at the question of reasonable force. Starvation, fleschettes, DIME bombs, cluster bombs, phosphorus, destruction of water, sewage, and electricity utilities, bulldozing of villages, etc. would not be considered by any court anywhere to be reasonable force. It is not considered reasonable force by the IDF and IAF, who intend explicitly to use what they consider disproportionate force, as President Peres made clear, to teach the population of Gaza a lesson.

There is the additional problem that reasonable force will only work as a defence if there was provocation. In this case, whether you consider the immediate circumstances, or the history (say, back to 1967, but further if you wish) you will find that Israel is in no position to plead self-defence.

The figures that record the destruction wrought by Israel are therefore very much to the point.

phil

Penny to sin AMEN

Donna Gardier

Thanks Penny look forward to listening to link. It's down at the moment though.

War Is Peace
Thanks for your comments.

Original Tony

Everyone stop whining!

If you were an Israeli soldier in Gaza and you knew from personal experience that suicide bombers (CIVILIANS) were likely to attack you at some point, wouldn't you shoot at civilians who come too close to you? I certainly would!

Well done Israel for training your army to be so full of restraint under such terrible circumstances.

phil

stanley Jerusalem -hamas has just turned down the swop of 450 prisoners for Gilad SHALIT as you have observed -doesn't it show how they value their own ?,their arithmetic comes straight out of the logarithmic tables by hazlitt and sidgewick priced at 10p and published by the Guardian ,of blessed memory .Can you remember when that was a respected paper -it was called the Manchester Guardian then -how times have changed .

phil

Herbert T ,good day to you -I have good news for you as you suspected more and more people are considering your party when next they vote .A friend just the other day ,a true blue tory told me he had had enough of them and was going to vote BNP ,I cannot tell you how shocked I was ,but I thought of what you have said to me so many times that so many quite ordinary and non racist voters are so fed up with our mainstream parties kneeling before the sword that in despair they are looking elsewhere -You know that I do not approve of the BNP but I have always been impressed by your common sense and decency and now it seems more like you are joining your party -I have always said that I wished you would bring your sense and concerns into the mainstream ,but I am beginning to wonder whether we are losing the battle.Every time another lunatic appears as they did in Luton you gain another member -I wonder whether those crazies know what they are doing .as always my best regards to you ,if not the BNP ;)

stanley Jerusalem

...and Neville Cardus wrote the cricket and the music columns.
My log tables disappeared with my slide rule. They probably think mental arithmetic is what the Stock Exchange does. Well, it probably is now, but it wasn't then. The girl at the checkout still can't understand how I know the total before she finishes her checking off the goods. Still my Mum used to do it 50 years and more ago too but at least she was brought up in a market. I only lived one street away from Ridley Road. Such is progress and the social climb. If they could only see us now, or maybe they can. I hope they're smiling.

stanley Jerusalem

P.S. Phil - Who is Herbert T? Or do you get up very late?

phil

Stanley I am having an enlightened day for a change .now I know who Henry Sidgwick is too -passed away in the nineteenth century ,possibly why his impersonator has such views- obviously a man whose future is way in his past - well that's the two of them -we will have to stick to Stan and Phil the kebab men .fress well chaverr

Herbert Thornton

Phil - Thanks for the encouraging news. Apropos your friend's loss of faith in the mainstream parties, I think we can assess it best in the context of the concerns expressed in James Forsyth's blog 'Pakistan the sum of all fears'. To my mind, your friend is influenced by the bigger and far more important - and common - dangers that affect both Britain and Israel and is aiming at what is best for both countries.

I wonder if the impersonator (whoever that is) feels that you were paying a somewhat watered down compliment? Stan, on the other hand, clearly pays less attention to the postings here than he does to his mental exercises while stocking up on kebabs at the supermarket.

phil

Herbert Thornton not sure what you meant re the impersonator -I meant sidgewick is impersonating someone long since passed .no watered down compliments, solamente la verdad -Stan is a star with a sense of humour and dont we need that ?he will love you now that he knows who you are

stanley Jerusalem

Phil - According to the Thornton Family Tree Herbert Thornton was born in 1884 but, to my amazement until I read his contributions, he does not appear to have gorn to meet his Maker yet. I would suggest that this explains everything thus far posted by HT. His determination to survive at all costs, while admirable, informs his late 19th Century attitudes. BTW I prefer shwarma, myself but should you wish to persist with the Kebabs I'm willing to put money into it.
Also, as I may have said previously, Ha'aretz is the Israeli equivalent of the Grauniad and may always be relied on to dig up some dirt or other to reflect badly on Israel even when they themselves buried it in the first place.

Herbert Thornton

Stan - I don't know how many Thornton Family trees there are, but I think you've been barking up the wrong one.

I'm more mystified though when you say that my determination to survive at all costs, while admirable, informs my late 19th Century attitudes. Were you just having a go at that old bogey "British colonialism"? If you were, I suggest that my disillusionment with the current mainstream political parties and my consequent support for the BNP, have nothing to do with either colonialism or with the late 19th century. I consider my attitude entirely new and modern and in our best interests in the 21st century.

I share in your liking for shwarma, but - & maybe this is a legacy of colonialism - I recommend that you also try Samosas, Kuku Paka, and Dim Sum.

phil

ht and stan ,I am a kibbies and falafal man and you two are stars -its always good to read posts from proper people

Herbert Thornton

Apropos the more recent exchanges, I see that my two efforts to compliment Phil on having talent as a matchmaker, and suggesting - not entirely tongue in cheek - that he apply it also in a wider arena of opinion with the aim of encouraging what I think would be a beneficial political entente have been ignored. Third time lucky perhaps?