The Guardian goes to Pallywood

George Laird

Dear All

Isn't nice that Melanie as usual can dismiss all allegations of Israeli war crimes?

Her latest piece of her obvious 'outrage' is a weighty tome which in part uses the 'defence' that others have committed the same war crimes as the Israelis.

The classic defence of 'they done it also' is no credible defence in a court of law.

Eye witness accounts by people are simply ignored by Melanie including this account by al Attar family;

"They (Israelis) would make us go first so if any fighters shot at them the bullets would hit us, not them,"

Using civilians as human shields are war crimes under the Geneva Convention.

At bottom of the page, we get a rare treat with this little gem from her;

"Truly, the Guardian is an evil newspaper".

Are they?

I thought they were a newspaper reporting news.

Finally; I think as hard as Melanie attempts to sell the notion that Israelis are our allies, their actions show they are nothing of the kind.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Rosa

"Truly, the Guardian is an evil newspaper."

Get a grip.

John from Toronto

George Laird,

A newspaper reporting news? More like a propaganda rag.

John from Toronto

George Laird,

A newspaper reporting news? More like a propaganda rag.

George Laird

Dear All

I missed this bit the first time round reading the weighty tome.

“The boys shown are healthy, well fed and bright-eyed”.

Where did Melanie Phillips obtain her medical degree?

How can Melanie make a diagnosis when she never carried out an examination?

“Their mother is consumed by grief as she describes what happened to them”.

As a ‘qualified’ medical doctor how is it possible that Ms. Phillips missed the signs of stress in this woman?

“hang on, let’s read that one again”.

Yes, let us all read that one again including the author, sorry Doctor!

“Her children are healthy, well fed and bright-eyed”.

Can I see the medical reports carried out by Ms. Phillips as evidence?

“So why is she weeping as if they have all been killed?”

Could it be that she has PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

“Looks suspiciously like another Hamas ‘Pallywood’ production to me”.

Medical degree and now a seasoned criminologist to boot!

Sherlock Holmes would be impressed!

Finally; I never knew that when you do an English degree at Oxford they throw in so many goodies!

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Merlyn

Well done Melanie, This is truly an uphill struggle for those attempting to unravel this web of deceit. Keep up the good work. Many of us rely on you for alternative back up information to check out.
When this country has to cover its back from the finally admitted, out of control, thousands of home-grown terrorists who blame their activities on Israel, we cant expect much else.

MathewP

Good evening all - would be fascinated to hear peoples views on the t-shirts being worn by Israelii soldiers. One shows a pregnant Palestinian woman with a bullseye super-imposed and the phrase " 1 shot 2 kills" and there were others in a similar vein.

Jason from AZ

At this point, it is hard for me to get worked up about anti-Israel propaganda from the press - especially in the UK. Of course, without demonstrative evidence, Israel bashing "journalists" will accuse Israel of war crimes. So why bother to read the nonsense and get worked up about it - it will never change.

It is no different across campuses in both the UK and US - Israel is vilified and facts don't matter. As Kaled Abu Tomeh (a Palestinian journalist working for the Jerusalem Post) writes:

"During a recent visit to several university campuses in the U.S., I discovered that there is more sympathy for Hamas there than there is in Ramallah.

Listening to some students and professors on these campuses, for a moment I thought I was sitting opposite a Hamas spokesman or a would-be-suicide bomber.

The good news is that these remarks were made only by a minority of people on the campuses who describe themselves as “pro-Palestinian,” although the overwhelming majority of them are not Palestinians or even Arabs or Muslims.

The bad news is that these groups of hard-line activists/thugs are trying to intimidate anyone who dares to say something that they don’t like to hear."

(Read it all at: http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/03/on-campus-the-pro-palestinians-real-agenda.php)

When facts don't matter, rebuttal is a futile exercise. As long as there is an Israel, there will be Israel bashing by the press, the UN, college campuses, Muslim societies, unions, and countless other venues. Jew hatred has been around for centuries, and Israel is a convenient way for this hatred to be focused without fear of condemnation.

David

Amazingly, for someone who's main criticism consists of "it's all allegation", her defence consists solely of "could have beens".

See me after class.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Guardian is just a terrorist paper they should be sued spreading lies promoting and trying to brainwash Islamic extremist and the undereducated lefties who read their stories

Gil

George Laird, who would you have as allies of Britain then? Hamas or Hizbollah? If so, how does this square with your concern for Human Rights? I'd like to see your Arab allies display a scintilla of the self criticism that Israel shows. How convenient of you to...forget this.

Rosa, the Guardian shows time and time again that it is selective when it comes to reporting on the Middle East. This is purely for commercial reasons. Do the numbers: Attacking Israel causes a delicious frisson among many of its readers. It is evil and it is obsessive.

Jenny

George, just give us the times and dates of all these goings on, and all the other missing data that would give them a shred of credibility.

J. Isaacs

Superb dissection of the writing of lazy Seumas, the Stalinist Wykhamist by Melanie Phillips. University experience tells me one thing arrogant Wykhamists (and Balliol men for that matter) would hate is to be shown up as lazy.

Si, N

This is weird: ‘the purpose and effect of demonising and delegitimising the Israeli victims of terrorism by painting them as the terrorists and their Palestinian attackers as their victims.’

The Guardian piece IS about Palestinian ‘victims’ of the Israeli assault on Gaza – Melanie Phillips ultimately argues that the Mousa family were firing rockets into Israel and the residents of Sderot operated the drones.

Just plain odd

Helen

Rosa, the person who needs to get a grip is Alan Rusbridger and his goons - on facts. I know he lost it some time ago but we live in hope.

Oh, and here's George Laird trying to make out he's an expert in the law!

George, without a time and date, you won't even get anyone charged with anything, never mind get to the law courts.

Perhaps you'll provide with those times and dates, Georgie?

Augustus

It's not surprising that the Guardian has sunk so low with its evil money-grabbing left-wing propaganda against Israel.

The inglorious truth about life in Gaza is the dramatic and shameful decline in the standard of living under Hamas, just like Zimbabwe under Mugabe. Angry crowds gather on the streets shouting, "you are the cause of our hunger, not the occupation. Have mercy on us!" In a revealing documentary on Dutch television recently:
'Behind the Mask of Hamas', there is an interview with Umm Nidal who sent three sons to their deaths. She has six sons, but says she would offer up a hundred sons for the holy war. She says, "peace means the liberation of all of Palestine, from the Jordan River to the sea. When this is accomplished -if they want peace, we will be ready. Then they may live under the banner of the Islamic state." She continues, "I'm proud and honoured to be a terrorist for the sake of Allah. 'Prepare for them whatever force and steeds of war you can, in order to strike terror in the hearts of the enemy of Allah and of your own.'
I'm happy to implement this Koranic verse myself, and to be a terrorist for the sake of Allah."
(See also: 'Inside Hamas' in 7 parts on YouTube)

hadrian

The Guardian is indeed bigoted biased and blindly prejudiced in its reporting. That Hamas is an insitutionally murderous genocidal organisation that has wrought death and destruction not only on Israelis but its 'own people' seems quite to escape its attention. I see it as the printed version of George Galloway these days.

solemnman

The use of a chemical,biological or dirty bomb, by the people these journalists adore, that a recent British study concludes may occur in Britain in the near future,might make these journalists think again (or- even for the first time) but- till then -no amount of rational argument or even concrete evidence will prevent these allegations from being regarded as immutable truths ,written in stone ,by the British public.

Rob

"which it manages to distort even further, saying that these included the admission by an Israeli soldier that an Israeli sniper had shot dead a Palestinian mother and her two children without saying a) that even Ha’aretz had said this was an accident and b) that the soldier subsequently admitted he hadn’t even been there and was merely recycling rumour and hearsay."

Source? Possibly the most contentious issue here and you can't provide one. It seems debaters on both sides of this are as bad as each other.

"Truly, the Guardian is an evil newspaper."

You said the same about Tony Benn for critising Israel. I disagree with The Guardian on loads of things, but to call them evil? You just make yourself look bad.

dominic lennon

The Guardian can't really sink any lower. They are to Islamic fascism what the Mail was to the Nazis in the early 1930s.

Yonni

May I assist our overseas readers with The Guardian's track record of 'investigative journalism'? It might help to clarify things a little.

We have at present a bloated insect in high office called Paul Myners. All of the other newspapers have in recent days here been revealing how Lord Myners is supposed to be the government official cracking down on tax havens while he himself has been busy trying to set up an insurance company in 'light touch' regulated Bermuda. Fancy!

I am shocked that our poster Rosa, since she thinks she's in possession of such a firm grip, didn't leap to tell you all about that this man because he was previously chairman of The Guardian group when:

'on his watch, The Guardian became the subject of a hugely embarrassing libel action by Tesco. This episode was yet another which demonstrated Myners's easy readiness to square circles, remaining untroubled by accusations of hypocrisy.

'The row with the supermarket giant started early last year when The Guardian ran a big story saying that Tesco was using a host of offshore companies to avoid £1billion or so in corporation tax.

'However, there were three fundamental problems with the article. First, the fact that Tesco used offshore vehicles to avoid tax on property deals was old news: the subject had been disclosed and thoroughly dug over in a Channel 4 Dispatches documentary a year earlier.

'Second, The Guardian story said Tesco was avoiding corporation tax. This was wrong.
Tesco was - quite legitimately - avoiding something called Stamp Duty Land Tax. Also, the sums involved were nothing like £1billion.

'Third, the story was published just as The Guardian group itself and the private equity firm Apax were using an offshore vehicle in the Cayman Islands to buy magazine group Emap.

'Later in the year, The Guardian had to climb down and issue a humiliating apology over the Tesco case. But this was after Tesco's lawyers had been able to point out, in court, that The Guardian's bosses (headed by Myners as group chairman) had probably saved around £5million through the Cayman Islands tax wheeze - the very sort of scheme about which their paper had been campaigning against in print.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1162580/The-faces-Lord-Hypocrisy-The-minister-oversaw-Fred-Shreds-pension.html

Rosa, dear, can you use that grip you think you have to tell us why The Guardian has thus far neglected to run a story on the conflict of interest that is so patently apparent between a government official supposed to be clamping down on tax havens and trying to set up a company in Bermuda?

Is that why The Guardian has had to cover all these pages with accusations about Israel? Because it doesn't want to run that one simple truth about Myners?

And when you've finished doing all that, Rosa, you can tell us all how an allegedly 'quality' (stop laughing at the back) newspaper can present a story like the one it did about Tesco and get so much of it so demonstrably wrong and then ever expect anyone to ever take a word it says at face value ever again?

Nachman

Rosa - a paper that blatantly presents unsubstantiated allegations as facts deserves no less an epithet of evil - or are you convinced by the so-called evidence? Once again lies travel half way around the world before truth has time to get its boots on - "Jenin Massacre" ring any bells. Unfortunately the State of Israel cannot bring a libel action against the Guardian which uses that fact to publish all the lies that it thinks are fit to print.

Bob.India

Also a hypocritical newspaper. Readers will no doubt recall the recent Guardian exposé of UK companies ultimately owned by off-shore vehicles so as to mitigate or avoid UK corporation tax liability. No mention was made in the splash that the self same newspaper group's latest corporation tax bill of £80 K on profits of £300 million testifies to the efficacy of such arrangements.

Nachman

George Laird it would appear from your obvious loathing of a free and open society such as Israel where the army is answerable to the Judiciary and where id war crimes have been committed those responsible will be published that you would rather support a society that knee caps its opponents (who are then treated for free in Israeli hospitals)and which is anwerable to no one - how you then consider yourself qualified and able to speak for "The Campaign for Human Rights etc" obviously means that you have little or no concept of what "human rights" are. you provide no evidence to refute Melanies counter allegations but snide ripostes. Were you in gaza? Did you see the alleged "War crimes"? Until they have been oroved beyond a reasonable doubt they are just allegations and Israel is not guilty of any of them or do you hold that the rules of law are suspended when Israel is accused? Unfortunately like an alleged rapist who is found to be innocent the allegations themselves stick and even if as with the jenin libel Israel is found to be innocent of war crimes obfuscators like you will still peddle the lies as truth.

Truthtriumphs

Doesn't this have echoes of the Dreyfus affair?
Then, it was the individual Jew who was falsely accused of trumped-up charges and framed for treason by the anti-semites.
Now it is the collective Jew (Israel) which serves the same purpose.
Then, as now, it was the press corps which gave vent to its irrational hatred of the Jews, and screamed abuse at the unfortunate Dreyfus during the disgusting public ceremony of degradation that he was forced to endure.
But there was an upside.
In the press corps gathered to report the ceremony, one Theodore Herzl, a secular, uncommitted Jew from an Austrian newspaper, was so shocked by the "winds of hate" from his own ranks that he resolved to bring about the re-creation of the Jewish State in the Holy Land.
To the enduring gall of the anti-semites, it became a reality 51 years later.
Dreyfus was, of course, pardoned, although, in our time,
a mea culpa from the Guardian, Independent and others is hard to imagine.
This hatred will increase the resolve of the Israelis to stand up to it and expose it for what it really is.
Just as the "undisputed evidence" of the Mohammed al Dura case, the Jenin "massacre", the Gazan family beach massacre and so many other staged incidents were proved to be utterly false, so will this latest batch of so-called atrocities.

James P

Oh dear! I should give up on this blogging, but I want to repeat what I've pointed out in response to dear Melanie's blatantly double standards and "Jews are all, always, victims" - rants in two other threads.

This sort of hysteria only adds to fair minded people feeling increasingly "other" to those who cannot conceive of Israel being other than perfect and beyond reproach because all it's soldiers are totally locked into "Holy Arms'. Any other perspective is impossible and motivated by the "oldest hatred" Come on!

As - an increasingly pessimistic - supporter of Israel's survival (in full accord with international law along side a free, contiguous and properly compensated Palestinian state) I plead for the painful but crucial acknowledgement of the FACTS and for engagement using properly defined WORDS.

The inescapable FACTS are that Hamas complied with the terms of the truce of June 2008. Israel deliberately provoked the Gazans by gratuitously breaking the truce on November 4th, entering Gaza and killing six Palestinians - as well as tightening the illegal and inhuman blockade. Hamas offered to resume the truce. Israel instead launched the long planned "Operation Cast Lead/Cast White Phosphorus" to "educate" the wretched Palestinians, inevitably leading to outrage by most informed, civilized people (not "Jew Haters")around the world. It was a terrible mistake and a war crime by any definition of international law. FACT!

Now WORDS.

Those throwing around the term "terrorist" should read the history of 1948 - try Israeli historian Bennie Morris if you're not up to Illan Pappe or Americans like Henry Siegman, Noam Chomsky or Norman Finkelstein. You'll discover FACTS that may make you more circumspect in using the WORD "terrorist" to describe all Palestinians - as Israeli soldiers are apparently instructed.

Truthtriumphs

Mathew P.
Why don't you wait for the evidence before you condemn Israel.
Just imagine if a court of law behaved like that---- you would be the first to be outraged.
I don't imagine it would be too difficult to print tee shirts with the offending logos, and get them modelled for propaganda purposes.
Any 10 year old could do it.

Straydingo

George Laird,

Have you actually watched the videos?

MP is right to question the integrity as there is not one piece of evidence presented within these videos.

These reports are designed to feed the basis left wing moonbat audience which helps shift papers and increase advertising revenue.

George, I offer you, and all the other Moonbats, a challenge in showing me where MP has not spotted the factual based analysis within the Guardian articles and videos in question , as I am GENUINELY interested in learning what I have missed when reviewing these same "News" items.

Michael B

MathewP, any such t-shirts should be censored and denounced. But t-shirts do not equate to support of the attempted traducements.

Now, what do you have to say of the lack of support for the blood libel itself?

Rachel

Dear Melanie,
thank you very much for your analysis,
Re George Laird, just ignore him, he is a professional agitator who refuses to let facts interfere with his agenda. What's obvious is that the last thing he is interested is human rights

Sam Armstrong

Right on Melanie. The Guardian is a smug, hateful rag. May it collapse in the recession.

ofap

I agree people should wait for the corroborative evidence before condemning Israel. Equally, people should wait for the disproof of these serious allegations (by those who were actually there, and in the IDF no less), before dismissing it immediately as a blood libel.

The thuggery of Hamas is a separate issue (and seems undeniable).

Jenny

We have all been here before and will all be here again. It’s the same modus operandi by Hamas and by ‘news’ organisations such as The Guardian.

Let us remind George Laird, MathewP, Ronnie, Carl, patricia of the most famous of all these incidents: the ‘killing’ of Mohammed al Durah.

Then, just as now, there was videotape to ‘prove’ the Israelis shot this boy. Not one major British media outlet was interested in questioning the veracity of this footage that had so outraged the Guardianistas.

The damage to Israel’s world reputation was done and there were so many in the British media happy for that damage to remain permanent, despite all the hidden footage that had to be pulled out of the ‘news‘ agency that for some reason was so shy about all the footage it had, it had to be dragged out of it by a libel court.

http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/faking-a-killing-july

The tactic is can be clearly seen with the imam in Australia who has just faked an attack against a mosque by kicking in a door (we all know this sort of stuff goes everywhere, but it’s nice to catch this imam on video).

www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3470671/imam-commits-hate-crime-against-himself.thtml

Why doesn’t MathewP give us his thoughts on that?

PJ

If nothing else comes of this, at least the taboo on using the word Pali has been blown apart.

jayne

Thanks, Melanie. I felt truely disheartened today. You nail the lie, then back it comes bigger and back it comes badder. These people seem beyond the reach of rhyme and reason.

Yehuda

James P. : Hamas "ceasefires", like the myriad "ceasefires" that were announced during the Lebanese civil war in the 1970's, are interludes during which Hamas wants some respite from Israeli attacks in order to recover and rebuild.
Only a moronic entity would agree to enter into such a Kafkaesque / Orwellian arrangement.
Would you?

Ronnie

Obviously it's a pay-per-word contract.

Shaun Harbord

Bit of an own goal: "we see a child sitting on the bonnet of an IDF jeep with his hand chained to the windshield – which is most likely to have been done to stop him from running away rather than using him as a human shield." Of course!! Your hysterical tone and your willingness to give the IDF the benefit of the slightest doubt makes your efforts a mockery of journalism and undermines completely your complaints about The Guardian.

Russell

Oh, for Pete's sake! If the Guardian devoted as much time and effort to uncovering war crimes in, for example, Darfur, Omar Hassan Ahmad al-Bashir would be in jail by now.

Matthew

"Truly, the Guardian is an evil newspaper."

Some definitions of evil might be useful to see if a description of the Guardian as evil fits the bill:

1. Value destroyed with no commensurate recovery.

2. Pretensions to mastering the ground.

3. "Evil" is not a metaphysical term; it's a hypothetical construct defined by the behaviours that represent it. So we can study it scientifically, if we can agree on what behaviours are "evil".

It would appear that the behaviour of the Guardian may be considered evil if one keeps the above criteria in mind - it might be further argued that presupposing good intentions, however misguided, on the part of the Guardian, only intensifies the perception that it is engaged in a campaign of malevolent villification against Israel.

Wm. Hazlitt

Perhaps the most interesting comment in the Guardian's story comes from the former head of the IDF's International Law Division, Colonel Daniel Reisner: "What we are seeing now is a revision of international law. If you do something for long enough, the world will accept it. The whole of international law is now based on the notion that an act that is forbidden today becomes permissible if executed by enough countries. International law progresses through violations. We invented the targeted assassination thesis and we had to push it."

This means that Israel can commit war crimes in the belief that it will eventually be able to persuade the international community to accept them. The sad fact is that it has been right so far, mainly I suspect because the US and the likes of the UK are equally careless.

Carl

Well done the Guardian. The apologists hate the fact that the whole world is now aware of the Israeli brutality during their latest offensive in Gaza. It will make them think twice before they do this again.

Carl

"dominic lennon
March 24th, 2009 9:00pm
The Guardian can't really sink any lower. They are to Islamic fascism what the Mail was to the Nazis in the early 1930s."

That will be the same Daily Mail that Melanie writes for then.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Cal: The Israelis think too much, and worry too much about "world opinion," already.

Duncan McFarlane

Your claim Melanie that there is absolutely no evidence for these mere 'allegations' is somewhat undermined by the fact that the evidence includes the testimony of Israeli soldiers who served in Gaza

For instance in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on the 19th of March in a report titled
'IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement'
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

Junior officers told of being ordered to fire on any Palestinian in the zone of operation, armed or civilian, including an elderly woman crossing the street.

You also claim that "Hardly surprising since Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have repeatedly shown themselves to be wholly partisan in the Palestinian cause and viscerally prejudiced against Israel."

Can you provide any evidence for this claim, especially given that all these organisations have also condemned Palestinian groups for firing rockets indiscriminately that kill Israeli civilians, calling these actions war crimes?

It seems from your article that you are the one exhibiting blind bias.

gary

You shouldn't be so heavy with Glasgow George. From the items he includes it should be fairly obvious that his only source of information is the general news. He believes everything the media publishes. Be more kind to him. He means well.

Michael Medved

Dear MathewP,
I'd like to show you the link to the T-shirt in question:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7960071.stm
It would surely be of interest for you that Hebrew is the official language of the State of Israel. The Hebrew inscription "Snipers Unit" can be seen above the picture.
Now why would the "incriminating" inscription below the picture, on a T-shirt allegedly made for internal use inside the warriors' community, be in English instead of Hebrew? Could it perhaps hve been intentionally produced for external consumption of BBC, Guardian and Amnesty International?

gary

James P
'Oh dear! I should give up on this blogging, but I want to repeat what I've pointed out in response to dear Melanie's blatantly double standards and "Jews are all, always, victims" - rants in two other threads.'

Jews are the targets, not the victims. The victims of extreme hatred of Jews are the haters themselves. It's quite normal for antisemites to demolish their own societies because of the verve of their Jew-hatred. The 1,000 year Nazi Empire disppeared in a puff. Palestinians keep putting themselves further backward.

The worst thing about Jews is that we take unfounded slander as proof of the stupidity of the slanderer.

GaryO

What is Seumas Milne's problem? His articles and commentaries drip with anti-Israeli sentiments and he never misses an opportunity to demonise them.

The evil Guardian is loosing its readership hands over feet and will, insha allah, bite the dust soon.

But for the tax payers money, the bbc could be sharing the same fate.

Shame!

stanley Jerusalem

gary
March 25th, 2009 10:08am
"Be more kind to him.He believes everything the media publishes. He means well."
It might be more accurate to say he demeans well.

Duncan McFarlane

Gil wrote "George Laird, who would you have as allies of Britain then? Hamas or Hizbollah? If so, how does this square with your concern for Human Rights?"

How does criticising Israeli forces killing civilians equate to allying with Hezbollah and Hamas or approving of their killings of civilians Gil?

It doesn't. There's no logic to your question. It's just a feeble attempt at setting up a straw man - putting word's in George Laird's mouth that he never said.

Melanie Phillips won't believe Amnesty or UN or ICRC or Human Rights Watch or B'T Selem reports that provide evidence of both sides targeting civilians, despite all of them having proven their impartiality over decades.

They won't even believe Israeli soldiers when they report being given orders to fire on civilians.

They could read a few of them in Haaretz here http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html - but they'd rather pretend they dont exist.

So what exactly would count as evidence of Israeli war crimes for them? Nothing would. They blindly refuse to see that both sides have targeted civilians and that the only solution is negotiations between the war criminals on one side and the terrorists on the other.

Clap Hammer

It seems to me that CI(F) is there to provide a rutting ground for extreme lefties, Islamists and other social misfits, to spout their hate of the US, the UK, Israel, Neocons. Tony 'Bliar' and anyone who happens to be on the Georgous Ones hit list at any particular Moment.
Hundreds are being killed every week in Darfur. People are starving in Darfur. Really starving. Not the Gaza type fairy tale. Yet the ratio of Israel related articles to Darfur related articles is probably more than 20:1.

This alone defines the Guardian obsessiveness with Israel.

Truthtriumphs

Wm.Hazlitt.
Selective with the truth, as usual.
I think you'll find that the Israelis did not invent targeted assassination.
This has been a long practised tactic by countries dealing with enemies.
Did not Gt. Britain shoot dead 2 IRA operatives in Gibraltar many years ago?
And that against an enemy that did not aim rockets at civilians on the mainland.

Miranda Rose Smith

The story about the photo of the bound, blindfolded boy appearing in the Israeli army magazine is a bit improbable. Its just not the kind of thing army magazines publish.
Evil, ugly, horrible things happen in all wars, even committed by people who try to keep those kinds of things to a minimum, people like the British, Americans and Israelis.
In countries with a thriving pacifist movement and a rambunctiously free press, it is very easy for attention-hungry soldiers to make false allegations about such things and to play the press and the pacifists for suckers. Does the name "John Kerry" ring a bell?
Even if the worst allegations in the Guardian articles are true, the Israeli army's conduct in Gaza is a fraternity hazing prank compared to what went on in Chechniya and to what is going on in Sudan, Sri Lanka and the Congo. Why do Carl and the Guardian strain out gnats in Gaza while swallowing whole herds of camels elsewhere?

Carl

Truthtriumphs: You ought to try it sometime. For the record, the IRA killed and injured many people on the UK mainland.

The IRA members in Gibraltar were an armed Active Service Unit, engaged in placing a car bomb.

Truthtriumphs

Duncan McFarlane.

Just because the officers served in Gaza does not mean that they don't have their owm agenda, or that they are telling the truth.
There are those "refuseniks" who refused to serve in the disputed territories, safe in the knowledge that despite their ideological position, they would not be beheaded or thrown from the tops of tall buildings or just "disappear".
So easy, isn't it, to have a go at the moral party to this dispute, instead of trying to reform the real villains?
Does it make you feel good about yourself?

By the way, did you blame the culture of the British Army after the recent appalling incident when officers in a training camp in the UK subjected a poor young soldier to "beasting" which resulted in his death. And it wasn't an isolated incident.
Did the Guardian run pages and pages on it and accuse the whole army of a culture of brutality?
A:- They did not, but then it wasn't the Jews.

Tim

Melanie, Margaret, Sam, et al, in danger of stating the absolutely obvious: there is no complot against Israel! What is wrong with you people?

Original Tony

The truth can never be covered up. One day we will all know the truth and it will set us free...I look forward to the day

Wm. Hazlitt

"Truth"triumphs,

Difficulty with reading English (which, as is increasingly becoming apparent, is usual).

It is the former head of the IDF's international legal department (the department that advises on the IDF's rules of engagement)who made the boast about targetted assasinations. He was using it as just one example of how international law can be altered by committing a crime repeatedly.

In your righteous lather, you have also, no doubt inadvertently, "mis-spoken" about the IRA's campaign in mainland Britain.

Wm. Hazlitt

Augustus,

If you want to be informed about the state of the economy and of society in Gaza, read the work of Sara Roy, who has made a study of it for the last three decades.

Vision Aforethought

M: It isn't that the Guardian is an evil newspaper, or at least, 'the' evil newspaper. It is that Britain has become (thanks to dystopian New Labor) an evil country that is not only in denial as to it's status, but so full of sh*t that weeds are growing in abundance. The Guardian being a for profit entity is appealing (like our celeb worshipping PM) to the popular issue de jour that your vital and enlightening blog reminds us of on a daily basis. With some exceptions, the UK media as a whole is now managed staffed and consumed by shallow, poorly (sound byte?) educated individuals who are not driven by the desire to tell the truth or do the right thing, but to feel important.

The solution to all this is a revolution against the dumbing down of this nation through:
a) New print and online publications that focus on accurate, lengthy and pertinent 'stories' that are researched by impartial journalists.
b) An alternative to the BBC News. Thing is, who would pay for it? It's a tough call!

Duncan McFarlane

Clap Hammer wrote "People are starving in Darfur. Really starving. ."

Funny how so many people only bring up war crimes and starvation in Darfur when trying to distract from the same kind of suffering created by Israeli blockades and offensives.

Clap Hammer wrote"Not the Gaza type fairy tale"

Fairy tale?

The International Committee of the Red Cross was reporting by November last year that “chronic malnutrition is a steadily rising trend” along with “under-nutrition” in Gaza.

That means slow starvation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/chronic-malnutrition-in-gaza-blamed-on-israel-1019521.html

By December Chris Gunness, representing the UN in Gaza reported that ""Things have been getting worse and worse," said Chris Gunness of the agency yesterday. "It is the first time we have been seeing people picking through the rubbish like this looking for things to eat".

Ever had to look through rubbish tips for food?

Then there's lack of clean water to drink - which will kill far faster than lack of food.

According to the UN's latest report on Gaza "50,000 persons are completely without access to water and an additional 100,000 are virtually without water, receiving water only every 5 or 6 days in Beit Hanoun, Beit Lahiya, Az Zaitoun, Jabalia and east Khan Younis"
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf

Have you ever gone 5 days without safe water to drink? Or watched your children dying of infections from filthy water?

It may not be as bad as Darfur yet, but to claim its a 'fairy tale' is quite simply - a fairy tale and a smug one at that.

Vision Aforethought

A correction to my earlier comment: Please replace 'weeds' with 'poisonous mushrooms'.

phil

hazlitt is using the name of a dead man who used to write on the pleasures of hating -could he now try using the name of one better known for lying like haw haw or even haw haw hazlitt it would combine both and avoid us misunderstanding the purpose of his writing , his stage name is his choice of emphasis so I hope Pete will not moderate this .
those who wish to respond to the ridiculous laird should understand his purpose too-its not to inform us but to give him some strange pleasure in seeing his self appointed title next to his name -truth is an irrelevance ,and now he has added medical expertise to his lack of qualifications -what next brain surgeon ? well he will have an immediate client -laugh guys his words do not mean anything to us do they?

As for the Guardian it needs an audience and it would not get it amongst the normal educated classes and without their sensationalism and lies few would bother to buy it ,so its not to surprising what it does .A family member was a journalist with it when it was the Manchester Guardian ,he would turn in his grave if he knew what it had become .

Now having got that off my chest I will say that all of us Jews and I am sure decent people of all religions would want and expect Israel to examine any allegations of war crimes and deal with them in the moral way that we also believe they act ,irrespective of those so full of hatred that they would prefer to think otherwise -.We will not change their prejudices and personally I do not give a damn what they think ,but I do care what I think ,and I am sure you care too.

Jason from AZ has said it clearly earlier -we must never waive in our desire for decency ,nor let anger deter us from demanding what we know is right .our friend Truth Triumphs is well named and on a different moral level than the hazlitts and lairds that come here for their own strange purposes

Carl

I need to make a correction: The IRA unit that were shot in Gibraltar after planting a large car bomb were not found to be carrying any weapons. The soldiers would not have known this until after the incident.

Truthtriumphs

Carl.
Those terrorists taken out by the IDF had murdered scores of Israeli civilians and were planning on more.
The six Hamas "operatives" taken out by the IDF in Gaza last November were about to abduct Israeli soldiers via the tunnel network, and for that Israel supposedly broke the ceasefire.
By the way the Israelis rely on very good Palestinian sources for intelligence.

So you reveal your true agenda, yet again.
We here are allowed self defence, but the Jews apparently not.

Duncan McFarlane

Michael Medved - since most Israelis speak English as well as Hebrew there's nothing strange about an Israeli t-shirt in Hebrew and English.

Truthtriumphs - If they were refuseniks who wouldnt serve in the occupied territories they wouldnt be deployed in Gaza would they? Your explanation is contrived and makes no sense.

Truthtriumphs wrote
"So easy, isn't it, to have a go at the moral party to this dispute, instead of trying to reform the real villains?"

There is no moral side in the dispute. As i said before both sides have targeted civilians - as in most wars. The myth that the Israeli government and military are moral and the Palestinian factions immoral is what allows the Israeli government to get off with taking more west bank land by force and distracting attention by setting Hamas and Fatah against one another and ratcheting up the conflict in Gaza.

I can provide you with plenty of mainstream sources on that
(see e.g sources listed for
http://www.duncanmcfarlane.org/Israel-Palestine/thecoup/ )

There are plenty of Israelis who say the preconditions on negotiations are ridiculous and should be dropped - e.g ex General Shlomo Gazit, former head of Shin Bet military intelligence, was quoted by the Jewish newspaper 'Forward' as saying the preconditions are 'ridiculous, or an excuse not to negotiate'.
http://www.forward.com/articles/10055/

Efraim Halevy, the former head of Mossad also favours negotiating with Hamas
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/02/israels-mossad-out-shadows

Former Israeli foreign minister Shlomo Ben Ami signed an open letter saying “Hamas must recognise Israel as part of a permanent solution, but it is a diplomatic process and not ostracisation that will lead them there. The Quartet conditions…set an unworkable threshold from which to commence negotiations.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5804266.ece

Truthtriumphs wrote "By the way, did you blame the culture of the British Army after the recent appalling incident when officers in a training camp in the UK subjected a poor young soldier to "beasting" which resulted in his death. And it wasn't an isolated incident.
Did the Guardian run pages and pages on it and accuse the whole army of a culture of brutality?
A:- They did not, but then it wasn't the Jews."

You're right that the British army should be criticised for its brutality towards its recruits and for allowing some to be murdered, driven to suicide or pushed beyond endurance to deaths by heart attacks. I havent written any comments on the story you refer to, though i have written to newspapers before condemning the government's failure to have an independent public inquiry into the Deepcut deaths.

I think the case you're referring to was in August last year? Here's the Guardian's report on it
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/01/military

The Guardian has also published plenty of articles critical of the army's attempt to white-wash the Deepcut deaths and on British war crimes in Iraq such as the beating to death of Baha Mousa by British troops. I've written plenty on that myself too on my website
http://www.duncanmcfarlane.org/who%27s_right_on_Iraq/intro&articlelist/

So your explanation of supposed anti-semitism doesnt really hold up - many of the same people criticising Israeli war crimes criticise British and American (and Palestinain and Sudanese) ones too.

The difference is that when Israeli war crimes are condemned a host of people start going into denial, or saying other people committ war crimes too so it's somehow ok, or claiming all Palestinians deserve it.

phil

Duncan McFarlane I do not wish to denigrate your purpose here and I will assume it is because you care for humanity ,but why do you quote the words of the man known as Guness ,who has lied from the outset and has been proven to have done so .Of course the Gazans need clean water,medical supplies and food -They could have them so easily if the wicked "government"aka hamas gave a damn about them -I will not insult your intelligence by telling you how .I and so many others wish for peace and justice for both sides but I never hear one word in reciprocation-maybe you have a pragmatic solution which includes peace and security for Israel and their people who do not wish to hurt anyone .

stanley Jerusalem

Phil - "As for the Guardian it needs an audience and it would not get it amongst the normal educated classes."
Would that that were true, son.But we must never confuse educated with intelligent. When asked some 30 years ago why they made so much fuss about Israeli military actions but hardly mentioned Arab atrocities [Munich, hijacking etc.] The Guardian replied " Well no one expects any better from the Arabs, but from the Jews we do." This was after the start of the First Lebanese War [same time as the Falklands War] when the Guardian published a photo of a Beirut hospital with its walls blown out and beds hangigng in mid-air. The next day's Telegraph showed the same picture from the Guardian but with the date nearly two years earlier and with the caption 'Palestinians blow up Beirut Hospital'

Carl

Phil, you seize on the title of one of Wm Hazlitt's works and will no doubt go on and on about it. You might even read it sometime.

Perhaps apologists for IDF brutality should consider the title of another of his works: "An Essay on the Principles of Human Action"

stanley Jerusalem

Carl
March 25th, 2009 11:56am
Obviously it would have been fairer to have allowed them to arm themselves rather than face a charge of disproportionate action.
Gor Blimey, what a Pots!
Keep it up. The light relief is sorely needed.

gary

"... I will say that all of us Jews and I am sure decent people of all religions would want and expect Israel to examine any allegations of war crimes and deal with them in the moral way that we also believe they act..."

It's been investigated. It didn't happen.

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=43226

"Zamir claims that he took these non-eyewitness accounts to the IDF and asked that they be investigated. Since he refused to provide the names of the
soldiers involved in the alleged incidents and his eyewitness accounts were from soldiers who had not witnessed the accounts, the IDF officers he spoke with said they would have a hard time investigating."
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=43212

David Burrows

Israel has a history of using Palestinians, especially children, as human shields. Infact it was the Daily Mail who brought us this from a few years ago.

http://djiin.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/dailymail_humanshield.jpg

stanley Jerusalem

Duncan McFarlane
March 25th, 2009 12:07pm

Michael Medved - "since most Israelis speak English as well as Hebrew there's nothing strange about an Israeli t-shirt in Hebrew and English."
Piffle! I speak Hebrew and Yiddish among others but I was brought up in England and wouldn't dream of having a slogan printed in any language other than that of my birthplace.
Why on earth would I? I can't see Israeli soldiers choosing any language other than their own for an in joke, can you?
Mind you, were this to be a nasty little plant, then the possibilities are more revealing than the T-shirt.

Tim

Re: Yehuda, re: Phil's "I will say that all of us Jews".
I think we should be very careful not to confuse 'Jewishness', Judaism and Israel here, please. It is an incorrect, uncomfortable and potentially very exploitative route (for both those agreeing and disagreeing with Melanie's essays). Shall we try not to go there for conversation's sake?

Carl

Stanley Al-Quds, your post doesn't make sense.

Harvey

To George Laird

A simple question which I hope you may be prepared to answer

Do you believe that the government elect ,Hamas have acted in the best interests of the Palestinian people in order to realise their hopes and aspirations for a better life .

A simple yes or no will suffice.

stanley Jerusalem

Carl - Possibly not to you.

Truthtriumphs

David Burrows.
"Israel has a history of using Palestinians, especially children, as human shields."
Don't be ridiculous, it is Hamas which specialises in the cult of death and in engineering as many deaths as possible on their own side, to milk its propaganda benefit.
As we see from you and others, it works.
Please spare us your links--- you can find anything you wish to back up the most egregious lies.

As Mark Twain once said, "If you do not read the press, you are uninformed, if you do, you are mis-informed.

phil

Tim are you Jewish ?I suspect you are not otherwise you would have understood what I said and do you not agree with the sentiments expressed -So far when you have written I never understand what it is you are trying to say -I would be most obliged if you would enlighten us .

phil

David Burrows that was a wonderful piece of research -it was the remarks of a poster and nothing to do with the daily mail or your link was detached from your brain

Truthtriumphs

Tim.
In principle you are right, but in practice, many of the bloggers here hide behind "Israeli" when actually they mean "Jew", so let's be quite clear, there is no confusion.

Soovey

Melanie, thank you for this. It's about time that the egregious rubbish published by the Guardian and the likes of Shameless Milne is called for what it is.

The Guardian should not make any claims that its articles about Israel constitute ethical journlism. It's simply not enough to argue by way of excuse that these are opinion pieces and therefore do not have to be factual.

The Guardian is complicit in a wave of online pogroms against Israel's right to exist as a sovreign nation recognised by the UN. The visceral nature of the Guardian's hatred of Israel, the imbalance of it, should give decent, ethical journalists cause for concern. The Guardian publishes not merely Israel-hatred. The articles under its banner use the same tropes as antisemitism AND IT GETS AWAY WITH IT, AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. All of this feeds into Jew hatred. This has to stop.

MathewP, do you have proof, links, to these? I'd be interested to hear your opinions about the fatwah by Ken Livingstone's bosom chum, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, in which he declares that Israeli civilians, including pregnant women and children are fair targets for suicide terror because Israeli women are "militarised" and their babies will grow up to be soldiers. That is verifiable, see

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3875119.stm

Carl

Stanley Al-Quds, not to anybody.

phil

stanley Jerusalem AT PESACH WE ARE KIND TO THE ONE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND

Tim

Re: Phil

Phil, your post intrigues me, and reveals more about your presuppositions than I believe you must have wanted to. Also, it reaffirms my point this confusion does the conversation no good. One question however: why would I need to be Jewish in order to understand your point?
I am clearly not going to answer your preposterous question finally, but let me just say this: there are many Jews, especially younger ones, who do not agree with Israel's late policies.

Re: Truthtriumps

That's a fair point. I couldn't agree more.

George Laird

Dear Harvey

You have asked a question;

"Do you believe that the government elect ,Hamas have acted in the best interests of the Palestinian people in order to realise their hopes and aspirations for a better life".

The answer is clearly No!

Now, let me bat the ball back into your court.

Do you believe that the elected government of Israel have acted in the best interests of the Israeli people by refusing to seek and enter into peace talks with Hamas.

A simple Yes or No will not suffice!

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Mailman

What makes me laugh is the righteous outrage some here have over t-shirts YET not a single peep over Hamas's documented brain washing of children to continue their war against Israel.

Harvey Rose

For those who say Melanie provides the same unsubstantiated defence you need to remeber that in the uk it is up to the accusers to prove their claim not the other way around

phil

Re: Phil

Phil, "your post intrigues me, and reveals more about your presuppositions than I believe you must have wanted to."-----------

But not enough to avoid your style of speaking in tongues .you clearly know nothing about Jews ,but are insolent enough to comment on their thoughts - Your attempt at cosying up to TT will do you no good either, he is perceptive enough to see you for what you are -,to put it most mildly ,one who does not like to see we Jews offering the hope of peace and justice for all. ------------
I do not mind your confused writing as the reasons for writing are plain for all to see and the guardian will love you . I note you wrote to me on another thread in your inimitable style ,none of it intelligible of course ,but I suppose I would not reply to you in this way if I thought you had any -You may also note that I reply to others I do not agree with very politely,providing they are debating rather than being insulting -you may learn a lesson from that but I will not hold my breath .

phil

Harvey the laird will just have to stand by his bed as the answer is one word YES .It actually is not the first time he has said something sensible(hamas condemnation).he did say something some weeks ago but I can,t remember what it was as it has been drowned in a sea of rubbish and I have checked my records .,but no matter he is a constant scource of amusement and we must not deter him ----------------------------------

-phil the chairman of our campaign for human rights not to be bored by the laird

stanley Jerusalem

Quite right Phil,but to the "Wicked Son " You should set his teeth on edge."
I truly believe that little Carl here represents that individual who excludes himself from the generality of mankind and constantly, doggedly and perversely sets himself against all logic and reason.
He is certainly not the Son who doesn't know how to ask.If he were, the language of the prescribed text indicates that he should be gently instructed and uses the female form of the pronoun to indicate this route. Now for some of my Mum's Charoset or might you prefer the unforgettable experience of having your sinuses detonated by fresh undiluted Horseradish?

Mailman - Straining at gnats and swallowing camels was ever a favourite sport among the outraged.

Wm. Hazlitt

"Truth"triumphs,

I read somewhere that 8 Israelis were killed by Hamas and co. in the five years to the middle of 2006. I believe 3 Israeli civilians were killed during the recent invasion of Gaza. So some time between mid-2006 and late 2008, "scores" of Israelis were killed by Palestinian terrorists - when and where?

The use of civilians as human shields has been a feature of IDF tactics in the Occupied Territories, so prevalent that the Israeli courts eventually ruled that the practice is illegal and that the IDF should desist. Whether it has, I do not know.

Wm. Hazlitt

On the Pleasure of Hating.

"The pleasure of hating, like a poisonous mineral, eats into the heart of religion, and turns it to rankling spleen and bigotry; it makes patriotism an excuse for carrying fire, pestilence, and famine into other lands; it leaves to virtue nothing but the spirit of censoriousness, and a narrow, jealous, inquisatorial watchfulness over the actions and motives of others. What have the different sects, creeds, doctrines in religion been but so many pretexts set up for men to wrangle, to quarrel, to tear one another in pieces about, like a target as a mark to shoot at? Does anyone suppose that the love of country in an Englishman implies any friendly feeling or disposition to serve another, bearing the same name? No, it means only hatred to the French, or the inhabitants of any other country that we happen to be at war with for the time. Does the love of any virtue denote the wish to discover or amend our own faults? No, but it atones for an obstinate adherence to our own vices by the most virulent intolerance to human frailties. This principle is of a most universal application..."

Michael B

Mailman, yes, precisely.

Grumpy the Golani

Used to enjoy these blogs....but now just blah blah blah.
Intellectualised sword play posing as real discussion.
You poms really know how to make a matzo pudding out of whatever.
Back and forth - little snide comments fired off from behind the safety of your keyboards.

Britain is the domain of left leaning dingbats who would support any broken down cause (including some very dangerous movements)all in the spirit of fair mindedness and a good cucumber sandwich.

You really need to understand that you are largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (more so since you don't have an economy anymore) and that some of your rags (pretending to offer a news service)are just that and should be used to prevent your pets from pissing on your carpets.

For the rest know this one thing - that Erez Yisrael is in the forefront of the battle against extremist islam, a battle that it will prevail in, supported by like minded countries, who understand that this is the new war of the 21st century.
this is the reality - the rest is just details.

Gil

Duncan McFarlane@10:39 - I didn't 'put(ting) words in George Laird's mouth...' I posed a question. You misread my comment.

For the record, it is true that the former head of Mossad Halevy said that Israel should talk to Hamas and what's good for a former Head of Mossad is good for me.

But isn't it the case that this thread is about the Guardian and Gaza and not about whether or not to talk to Hamas?

Carl

Poor befuddled old Stanley Al-Quds.

Tim

Re: Phil

I would like to refer once again to my previous post - that we should not confuse 'Jewishness', Judaism and Israel - but I think you made my point far clearer than I ever could. Thank you for that. I think it is futile to engage in further discussion - I do not believe it will effect in much if with every turn of my 'tongue' I am called a 'bully', 'insolent', or, worse, 'one who does not like to see we Jews offering the hope of peace and justice for all'. Such allegations are unfounded, unnecessary and offensive.

I hope you enjoy the rest of your ride, Don Quichote. But you may find the others are too far ahead to catch up with.

But the best to you Phil and the others, I hope you will continue your discussions, which are, if anything, very interesting. Good bye.

ahad ha'amoratsim

"MathewP, any such t-shirts should be censored and denounced" They werer - by the IDF itself. A handful of recruits had them printed to celebrate their completion of basic training. The IDF found out, condemned and (if I recall) confiscated the t-shirts, and rebuked the offenders for violating the values and policies of the IDF. Sorry, I forget the source but it was on-line within the last day or so.

Gideon Afek

I emigrated to Israel from Australia 24 years ago. I serve in the reserves as an Operations Officer in the reconnaissance battalion of the Carmeli Infantry Brigade. This position has enabled me to experience first hand, the events at "grunt level" in the field, whilst participating in planning, briefing and debriefing up to the Brigade level of command. It is with tremendous pride that I recall the efforts that are made to avoid civilian casualties when operating in Gaza or Lebanon. Frequently we endangered ourselves or allowed the enemy to escape due to the risk of hurting civilians. We are also constantly aware that civilian casualties are the best weapon that the Jihad has against us. As an Israeli, I read Ms Phillips columns almost with awe - an oasis in the desert. A desert of 1984 untruth and truthspeak. A desert of hatred and libel. The 1930's are being relived by Jews, just that this time the fixation is upon the defender of the Jews, Israel. I have posted these words in The Times and Telegraph websites, but they are censored out, it seems I transgress their code of conduct.

Truthtriumphs

Gideon Afek.

An excellent post!
Re-post it on the Telegraph and Times websites.
Try, also, those snakepits, the Guardian and Independent.
Better still, can you post the ethical code that the IDF teaches new recruits, so that the grotesque lie that "the culture of the IDF is to target innocent civilians and to use them as human shields" is nailed.

Well done!

Michael B

ahad ha'amoratsim,
Thank you for the update. I'm not surprised.

Laura

George Laird, the onus is on the accusers to prove their case. Melanie Phillips need not prove IDF soldiers DIDN'T commit what they are accused of.

So George, no the Guardian isn't "reporting" news, but publishing rumors and hearsay in order to further an agenda.

And though Israel may not be YOUR ally George, it is the ally of all decent freedom-loving people, while hamas is the ally of those such as yourself and your misnamed Campaign for Human Rights, who oppose freedom and western civilization. Why are you not concerned with the human rights of those living under muslim tyranny, George? Why focus on the only free country in the Middle East?

Laura

David, I will say to you what I said to George. The onus is on the accusers to prove their case, not on Melanie Phillips to prove that soldiers DIDN'T wantonly shoot civilians.

Of course the left are really fascists who don't believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty at least when it comes to IDF and American soldiers. But they will certainly come to the defense of any muslim jihadist terrorist being held at Gitmo.

La Cumparsita

Has anyone actually seem any photos of soldiers wearing these alleged T shirts? I've only seen photos in The Times of models wearing them. More fabricated claims methinks

Ariey2k

The allegations quoted by Ha'aretz are not eyewitness reports but hearsay allegations,not admissible in court without corroborating evidence. While perhaps of some journalistic interest, the hearsay must be cross checked with more direct (in ths case Israeli) sources to qualify as a serious violation. However, I would say to all these commentators who are posed as the defenders of Human Rights when it concerns the Plestinians and Hamas as victims that I am ready to listen to your invariable attack on Israel if you can demonstrate at least one criticism you made against Hamas/Palestinin violations as there are indeed an abundance of same. I may guess that neither the killing of Fatah people in Gaza by their Hamas brethern failed to raise your Human Rights ire. Facts may be true or false, but Israel's media is quite open and self critical about allged Israel's human rights violations. This has a positive effect of checking such acts, if true, from becoming the norm or official policy. Can anyone of these fake upholders of human rights show us one case of self criticism in Palestinian and Hamas press or media? Indeed their media is 100% enlisted to aid their own propaganda effort. Without any independent and open self criticism, what we see is that violnce become their norm like dancing with glee on the roofs of Ramallah on 9/11 accepted as a popular and condoned way of response to uch acts in the Plestinian society. So if you are not a Hamas or Palestinian media source, obviously ready to support any bending of the truth in your favour, do not pose as an upholder of Human Rights as being a "fake" and "evil" suits you much better.

phil

tim is this what you object to and if so tell us why------""all of us Jews and I am sure decent people of all religions would want and expect Israel to examine any allegations of war crimes and deal with them in the moral way that we also believe they act ,irrespective of those so full of hatred that they would prefer to think otherwise -"".--- it is certainly beyond my comprehension(cue for an insult -enjoy )-with every message you have sent ,you have still failed to say anything ,sarcasm aplenty .,insults too -they are water off a ducks back here ,there are many more accomplished than you .and yet you still have not defined your problem with"Jewishness .Judaism and Israel-you are a man shrouded in mystery apart from your sarcasm that shines out like a sore thumb.Why not try a little pleasantness and then you will get your point across .,and no doubt you will get polite responses .

The problem on these threads is that when one puts across a point that is too difficult to answer .one is ignored ,like hazlitt the cut and paste man ,and even mr Mcfarlane disappears ,and many along with them -most of you just come to aim a punch and cry bitter tears when you get it back -just like you and robin and his batman (wagner -I have noticed you are reduced to one liners ).To be honest I do not expect a polite reply ,but you may surprise me .

stanley Jerusalem

phil - "you are a man shrouded in mystery apart from your sarcasm that shines out like a sore thumb"

Eh? Yer wot?
Nurse! The screens please!

phil

stanley Jerusalem -what was wrong with that ?I was being nice to tim

stanley Jerusalem

phil - His sarcasm is not shrouded in mystery then. OK Clear so far. But his sarcasm is shining like a sore thumb? Naaah! Gitornahtavere! And as the sun sets gently in the West, we say farewell to Tim, his thumb shining in the darkness like a mixed metaphor, and we remember the days when we were taught to write Inglish propper like, no wotarmean, Son?
Another jug of Rioja for my friend phil, please waiter!

phil

stanley Jerusalem-ok stands out :)

phil

stanley Jerusalem-you got me there chaver -ok his thumb which is sore is buried in the sand with his head which is in his mouth along with his foot in his toches . btw ribero del duera is better than rioja .and can you tell me what Gitornahtavere! means.