Claims and facts

Gilbert Belwether

So, whatever the details of individual incidents, the big picture is that at least 309 innocent people, most of whom were children under 15, were killed in the Israeli attack on Gaza. And this is certainly an underestimate, not only because of the large "unaffiliated" category, but because those listed as "members of a militant organization" were not necessary involved in attacks on Israel; some of them were policemen, for example (Hamas is after all the largest employer in Gaza). Not to speak of those wounded or maimed, or of the immense property destruction.

And the operation didn't even achieve its goals - rocket attacks resumed almost immediately, Gilad Shalit is still in captivity, Hamas is still in power. In fact the only result has been the predictable one of creating yet more hatred of Israel in the Arab world and beyond (as if we didn't have enough of that).

So, both morally criminal and politically counterproductive. But I mustn't criticize my government for this - only a self-hating Jew would do that, right?

Gilbert Belwether

By the way, is anyone surprised at Ms. Phillips's silence on the T-shirt story? I leave it to you to imagine her reaction if it was a pregnant Jewish woman depicted with a bullseye over her belly and the caption "2 for 1".

Merlyn

Melanie, having just watched a 12 year old Muslim boy on truthtube.tv
slice off the head of a grown man has left me sick to my stomach. Unfortunately, many of those children are weaned on violence and hate.
Where are the public out cries, pages of pictures and films of the butchery, rape and enslavement and land stealing sanctioned by Mohamed in Sudan for example? There is plenty of real and personal evidence of this on you tube by victims.
In the BBC website have-your-say about our new vigilance in the UK against terrorists, people think its a wind up or we should not be in Afganistan. They are asleep to this creeping unbelievable poison taking their eyes off the ball and having them forced on to Israel

EDDIE

I read Ha'aretz on the internet and I have to reluctantly conclude that they seem to be very emotionally attached to the Palestinians that they seize on any rumour as being fact, just like the BBC does. At the same time, Israeli soldiers and civilians are being killed.I cannot understand it at all.

MattG

Gilbert Belwether

I cant speak for Melanie, but I suspect she would find the t-shirts very idiotic.

Two Summers ago I was at a bbq where a couple of British army personnel were present in civvies. I remember one of them wearing a t-shirt stating "Basra 2006 - we came, we bombed, we kicked ass' or some similar rubbish.

And the morale of the story is - none really - young (army) men have a dumb sense of humour.

When I was on a trip to Israel about 30 years ago, my parents bought me a t-shirt that said - 'Join the IDF, travel the world, meet lots of interesting people, and kill them'.

People print dumb things on t-shirts. Myself included.

But only a moron would view this as evidence of some great hidden war-crime (or exactly whetever it is you are trying to say).

Aside from which, I understand that the Israeli t-shirts were t-shirts a handful had printed after a Snipers course, well before Op Cast Lead.

Idiotic...immature....and if it wasnt for a media desperate (and failing) to find evidence of unprecedented war-crimes by the IDF...the 'story' would have sunk without trace.

I haven't a clue whether you are a self-hating jew.

I just think you are rather silly and naive.

In short, the t-shirts printed by a couple of conscripts are plain stupid. But so is a Prince in the British Army calling fellow recruits 'Pakis'.

In fact I would have thought the latter indicative of an army/society with rather bigger problems.

Yours

MattG

Gilbert Ratchet

"By the way, is anyone surprised at Ms. Phillips's silence on the T-shirt story?"

No. Because its not much of a story. Its a stupid t-shirt printed by some soldiers in a private capacity, not an IDF uniform.

Moron.

Wm. Hazlitt

Here is a statement I happened on by chance in a previous debate, of a humanity rare even in these blogs. I will post it here for all to appreciate:

"The idea that any person should be disqualified from living where they choose on account of their ethnicity is nothing but racism in its purest form"

We owe this to "Truth"triumphs: for once it does! Refugees the world over would be heartened, if they but knew.

Miranda Rose Smith

If an elderly Arab woman, may she rest in peace, was shot by Israeli soldiers while she approached a unit, that is a horrible thing. But its also war. Does anyone remember how Mickey Marcus, of blessed memory, died?

Wm. Hazlitt

Are we not lucky to have the Jerusalem Post to tell us what the truth is officially.

The body count in Gaza is not a fiction concocted by Hamas. Independent human rights organizations investigated every casualty by visiting hospitals, morgues, and the families of the victims. It would be interesting to know how the IDF carried out its investigation.

Dan

Gideon Belwether, I suppose an incident of a t-shirt troubles you more than the homocide bombs of Islamists who have murdered and maimed countless pregnant women and children and men all over the globe. And all you can focus on is one wretched t-shirt. Some concern for Human Rights you have.

Go to Comment is Free or the Independent where you will be able to indulge your t-shirt fetishes to your heart's content.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Mr. Belwether: The reason Gilad Shalit is still in captivity and the rocket attacks on Sederot resumed almost immediately is that Idiot Olmert didn't have the guts to finish the war. Do you really think the war was morally criminal because 309 or more innocent "Palestinian" civilians died? Do you think it was morally criminal of the Ameicans and British to fight World War II? Do you know how many German and Japanese innocents died in that war?
The T-shirt was just tacky, ugly, hateful and tacky. Ms. Phillips usually protests more when Jews behave that way.

Sean

"By the way, is anyone surprised at Ms. Phillips's silence on the T-shirt story?"

I'm not because it's a non-story. A private company brings out offensive T-Shirts. That happens in every country. You should see some of the posters on sale in Jordanian souks. Equally vile, but I'm sure they wouldn't bother you...

Worried

@Gilbert Belwether: It is a war! People die. I believe we (the British) killed thousands of civilians in Germany, not because we wanted to, but because it was either 'them' or 'us'. That is why there are peace talks. But when people lie or demand 'just one more' concession after being granted the last one, eventually, one or more parties have to resort to war to protect themselves. I believe all countries have this right. But only Israel draws the focus of the media because (and one day, people will wake up to this), the Palestinians are being used as a physical and more importantly, 'moral' tool against Jews. And it's working. Israel falls into the trap every time, but they have now said, "Enough is enough." The enemies of Israel are responsible for their plight. Etc.

James Murphy

Hats off to your intellectual indefatigability, Melanie: it is surely a heroic quality in these dark days when there seems to be no limit to the power of bigotry. Indeed, as a battered and bemused habitue of this site in recent months, one thing is clear to me: people depend on their prejudices for a sense of moral identity, without which they would psychologically cease to exist. George Laird, a decent enough fellow, no doubt, is, one would suppose, a classic example of this syndrome, with his need to buttress his moral authority/identity with the title of some dubious soi-disant committee. - Indeed, the seething nature of pro-Hamas prejudice on this site (the usual sanctimonious suspects) only betrays the terrifying impenetrability of minds locked into a world-view upon which they absolutely depend - regardless of the facts. They are, of course, a lost cause. Conversely, the rest of us can only continue, I suppose, (and if it sounds as if I'm losing conviction it's because I am) to follow your intellectual example and fight for the minds of the undecided.

Ian G

Mr Gilbert Belwether is playing games with numbers or else he does not understand them. The 320 'unaffiliated' does not include children under 15 as they ha.ve already been accounted for. This looks like a pathetic attempt to inflate the numbers. Nearly 14% of the casualties were under 15. Nearly 50% of Gazas population are children. It's not ideal, but its a good deal better than most wars, compares well with random rocket attacks and threats to destroy ALL Jews.

David

Gilbert Belwether, your logic is quite bizarre. You chastise the IDF for their brutal operation and then sneer at them for stopping that operation, even though that decision allowed Hamas to increase the daily number of rockets fired into Israel.

If you showed any sign of reflection on the choices facing the Israelis (in the face of a daily bombardment), argued more rationally for the cessation of ALL hostilities and raged about the deaths of women and children on BOTH sides, you'd make clear how much you care about the loss of human life.....but you don't, do you? The true depth of your concern seems clear to me.

Carl

Miranda R-S, the Israeli attack on Gaza was not a war, it was a brutal attack on a largely defenceless population.

Valentinus

It's always great when Melanie clears up these misunderstandings. Thanks!

phil

mr hazlitt posts ""The idea that any person should be disqualified from living where they choose on account of their ethnicity is nothing but racism in its purest form" `perhaps he would like to comment on the number of Arab countries where JEWS CANNOT GO TO AND WHY ISRAELIS NEED MORE THAN ONE PASSPORT .

stanley Jerusalem

Carl, sweetie, why does the largely defenceless population of the Gaza Strip persist in lobbing naughty litle rockets at their Israeli neighbours? Is it because, like spoilt children, they wish to be noticed or is it because they are not defenceless and wish to eradicate their neighbours like it says in their instruction booklet and like their little kids are daily taught in the schools that nice Mr. Hamas provides for their welfare?
Oh, I nearly forgot. Do you approve of Hamas' Charter to wipe the Israelis off the face of the Earth? Easy question but somehow the answer continues to elude you.

phil

Miranda Rose Smith-yes I do and may ALUF rest in peace

Henry Sidgwick

I would like some help on the criteria for deciding which newspapers to believe implicitly and which to distrust utterly. Is it simply that those who broadcast the views of the Israeli government are to be trusted, and those who don't, aren't?

Can I suggest that we step back once in a while from the question, important as it is, of which Palestinian civilian accidentally bumped into what Israeli projectile, and look at the pattern of Israel's behaviour. (I suspect there are those among Israel's supporters who shrill and shriek so loudly and point the other way so frantically to distract us from this question.)

For sixty years Israel has pursued conquest, expropriation, and oppression. (For thsoe who wish to dispute this: before you do, please do your research. On Israel's security strategy, Moaz, The Defence of the Holy Land; for expropriations, Hussein, Access Denied: Palestinian Land Rights; for oppression, Sara Roy, Failed Peace, Weizman, Hollow Land, and any number of others. These have been referred to by others and should be familiar.) It now looks as if Israel is in a position to contemplate complete victory in achieving its immediate strategic aims. It is close to achieving all it wants. All it will take, if it can somehow be engineered, is one final act of ethnic cleansing, as is currently discussed across the political spectrum in Israel. Second-best would be to continue with the development of the current system of reservations or ghettoes.

The Palestinian Arabs recognize the existence of Israel, no doubt much in the same way as the native Americans recognize the existence of the USA. Israel has a choice. It can emulate the USA. Or it can seek a compromise peace that requires it to observe international law. Everyone of goodwill towards both the Israeli people and the Palestinian people should urge the state of Israel to choose the latter.

Carl

Stanley Al-Quds, I see that you take the view that all Palestinians are terrorists. It's just a way of dehumanising them, it makes it easier to excuse atrocities against them.

Anne-Kit

Wm. Hazlitt, March 26 8.20am:

"... independent human rights organizations..."

Now there's an oxymoron ...

Chris

What I find infinitely depressing about Melanie Phillips' views, and that of many of the contributors on this blog is that they are so lacking in creative thought. It all seems to boil down to 'our side is right and the other side wrong'. As long as people adhere to these positions, this conflict will persist. What is required is some imaginative thinking that transcends the tribalism and ancient hatreds that underpin this war. Trying to blame one side whilst excusing the other is simply to remain in this painful and hopeless situation. The blame game simply makes you part of the problem rather than the solution. And this applies to ALL sides. Let's bring some emotional maturity and sophistication to the process and get out of the playground.

James P

Last time I'll go on about this - promise, but the salient FACTS about Operation Cast Lead/Cast White Phosphorus transcend any of this sophistry/casuistry about numbers of Palestinians killed.

The operation was intrinsically illegal because there was an alternative - a continuation of the caeasefire that ISRAEL COMMITTED TO (my dear Yehuda)and which was kept by Hamas until AFTER Israel broke the truce on November 4th and gratuitously killed six people in Gaza. Hamas responded - as was intended by Israel - with rockets but also offered to renew the truce - thus addressing the security concerns in Sderot. But having planned Operation Cast Lead from before the truce so as to
"educate" the Palestinians, the cry "Enough is enough!" went up as a phoney justification for totally illegal and utterly immoral mass killing in a tiny, densely populated area under a sadistic, illegal blockade (that Israel tightened rather than loosened as promised if the truce held).

Anyone with any depth of knowledge of the FACTS want to challenge this?

So whatever the number of innocent children and other human beings that the IDF put to death, it was ,no dispute - a war crime and a crime against humanity, end of story.

Well. not "end of story" of course. The story will go on for years as the non Jewish masses of the whole Middle East inevitably nurture their vicariously shared humiliation, rage and consequent yearning for revenge. Now where is the plain of Armagedon?,

The killing of any one of those kids in Gaza is tragic. The long term consequences are tragic beyond comprehension.

stanley Jerusalem

No Carl, I take the view that all Palestinian terrorists are terrorists.I have met and befriended lots of non-terrorist Palestinians both here in Al Quds and also in Londonistan and they are mortified by the behaviour of their 'brethren' in Gaza, unlike you.Also I am delighted to note the exclusion of your answer to my question about Hamas' charter.
BTW I want to place on record what a delight it is to have a meaningful discussion with you in place of your normal invective. Could this be the start of a period of enlightenment. I'm not holding my breath.
You are nothing if not predictable.

Wagner

Phil, calm down, Hazlitt was actually quoting Truthtriumphs-one of your bunch. Perhaps you should read posts more carefully befORE SHOUTING AND SPLUTTERING OVER YOUR KEYBOARD IN ANGER!
The point, I would assume, is that you lot adopt arguments and moral positions that are forgotten just as quickly when someone tries to apply them to the other side. You may not realise you're doing it but it has a name- H Y P O C R I S Y.

James

How can Ms Phillips claim to be providing "facts" when all she provides are quotes from someone identified only as "the source"

I'm sorry, but "the source said" doesnt prove or disprove anything

George

JamesP,

If I understand you correctly, Hamas digging a tunnel underneath the Israel-Gaza border was not a violation of the ceasefire. Only when Israel destroyed that tunnel (which resulted in the deaths of 6 of the people involved in its construction) was the ceasefire violated. Please let me know if I have understood you correctly.

phil

Chris your motives for the post I am sure are right, but you misunderstand the reason why we are belligerent to the haters on this thread ,it is because they have no interest in peace or constructive dialogue -most on my side of the fence do ,but who are we to talk with ? certainly not the likes of carl ,sidgewick ,hazlitt,si,n and co -If you have read what I post you will have seen I always look for peace and justice for both parties ,but never once is this reciprocated -just look above and see the garbage from wagner,who no doubt enjoys his indulgence in ignorance -----------

.I applaud the common sense in your post but I just wish I could find even one from that bunch of haters who would join in . The ladies ,Penny ,Louise ,Linda write with clarity and compassion as does Kate A and many others .to what purpose ? I do not know ,but for me I will not let them get away with the ceaseless lies and insults ,until the truth emerges we will never see peace -compromise is certainly necessary ,but so far any try by Israel just allows the battleground to get nearer to the centres of population -just look what happened when Israel left Gaza -everything was destroyed and the rocket sites just moved up ----------

.Chris I could go on but I am sickened by the low lives who seem to enjoy the plight of the two peoples -in many cases it is just sport for them .it is not for me I have family there who wish to live in peace and with justice for both themselves and the Palestinian ,s

George

Henry Sidgwick,

I can't help you with your choice of newspaper, but maybe choose one which helps you get the facts right. You state "For sixty years Israel has pursued conquest, expropriation, and oppression." Presumably this would be the reason why on June 19, 1967, the National Unity Government of Israel (including Menachem Begin) voted unanimously to return the Sinai to Egypt and the Golan Heights to Syria in return for peace agreements. The Golan would have to be demilitarized and special arrangement would be negotiated for the Straits of Tiran. The government also resolved to open negotiations with King Hussein of Jordan regarding the Eastern border. This was to be transmitted to the Arab governments by the USA. The answer, of course, was the "three No's" of the Khartoum summit of September 1967.
You also say that Israel is close to achieving its strategic aims. "All it will take, if it can somehow be engineered, is one final act of ethnic cleansing, as is currently discussed across the political spectrum in Israel." I don't know where you live, but here in Israel I am totally unaware of any such thing even being contemplated, let alon discussed.

phil

Wagner its good to see you have left your one liners ,but I SEE YOU CONTINUE WITH YOUR IGNORANT WRITING -I SUGGEST YOU READ CAREFULLY WHAT I WRITE -NO DOUBT ITS DIFFICULT FOR YOU, BUT DO TRY -now can we stop this cap lock stuff the other posters are no doubt bored with you .Perhaps you can read what I wrote to Chris and do some thinking instead of spewing hate .

David Saffer

Gilbert Belwether:

'By the way, is anyone surprised at Ms. Phillips's silence on the T-shirt story? I leave it to you to imagine her reaction if it was a pregnant Jewish woman depicted with a bullseye over her belly and the caption "2 for 1".'

I think that would depend as to whether the woman in the picture was carrying a gun slung over her shoulder like she is in this one.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072466.html

They image, whilst indeed tasteless, clearly shows a rifle - so Gilbert, should pregnant women who brandish fire arms be given a free pass?

phil

James P- can one assume you have a qualification in international law ?-you said one truthful comment in your tirade and distortion .that is that "The killing of any one of those kids in Gaza is tragic" although you should have used the word death . You might also have said who was responsible for this tragic war ,but you might also have choked whilst saying it .

Henry Sidgwick

George,

And yet Israel continues to expropriate land in the conquered West Bank and East Jerusalem and continues to impose its "security" regime of road blocks, demolition, blockade, and arbitrary imprisonment.

I am told that in the last ten years there have been posters on walls, buildings, bus stops, with messages like "Expel the Arabs" or "Transfer - Security and Peace". But these posters may simply be isolated aberrations like the thousands of tee shirts designed by IDF soldiers. Just a bit of a joke. But I refer you to the proceedings of the Herzliya Conference from 2000 onwards. Since the second Intifada politicians, military men, settlers etc. have been more open about their thinking. "Transfer" has been discussed by many, including members of Sharon's and subsequent cabinets, for example, Tzachi Hanegbi, Avigdor Lieberman (of course), Effi Eitam, Rehava'am Ze'evi, Benny Elon... Barak has discussed it, Netanyahu has discussed it, Livni..You must know there is great concern about the "demographic" problem and much consideration given to ingenious ways to deal with it.

Carl

Avigdor Lieberman - it speaks volumes about a country prepared to have such a person in government. Still, just like Hamas, he was the peoples choice.

Carl

Phil, I believe that the people responsible for the attack on Gaza and the associated killings are a group known as the IDF. I hope this helps.

Stephen Rothbart

Henry Sidgwick has put his finger on the point of all this. Demographically Israelis will cease to be a Jewish State within 30 years as the Arabs inside its borders will out number them. That is a fact.

Israel has to do something about that.

Many countries in Europe will also be Muslim countries within 50 years for the same reason.

This would not ordinarily be a problem, because most religions in the world try to tolerate each other and get on, respecting the rights of those people that believe differently to them.

Islam is not one of those religions, and as the battle going on in 'moderate' Turkey shows, the fight between a form of secular and ultra-religiousness is being waged and I suspect, will be lost by those that are prepared to be tolerant.

The civil wars being fought inside Islam right now, from the toxic al Qaeda/Taliban carriers of Sharia Law, to the Holocaust deniers in Iran, and their allies in Hamas and Hezbollah, to the shiite and sunni battles spilling out all across the world.

The so-called moderates, whom we are told are the majority, but are certainly the silent majority, seem powerless or unwilling to stop this.

One thing Israelis know, is their immediate neighbours will have no intention of sharing their land or even the air they breath, with Jews.

So it's a fight to the death, between two peoples.

One of the differences between these two peoples, is that one believes in celebrating life, will not try to kill you if they feel real or imagined insults against their God, believes in universal suffrage, equal rights for gays, women in the workplace, etc. and the other ones, well they don't believe in any of that.

It would be impossible for both sides to share this country on those terms.

I am sure that the people who favour the Palestinian side in this argument would hate it if Sharia law is imposed on their secular state, something that is fast becoming a reality given the weakness of our ruling classes in Europe, and I have heard many people in Europe and the UK say, not in jest, that if these people want to live under sharia law, they should go back to their own country.

Well, Palestinians want to live under Sharia law in the Jews country, so if this is their intention, it must be understandabe if a sizeable population of Israel tries to engineer the wishes of all sane and reasonable people around Europe who believe in freedom of speech and the integrity of Life over Death, and try to get them to leave.

What is bewildering to me is how many people know all this, and still side with the purveyors of death cults and the kinds of people who dress their children in suicide bombers' outfits.

What does that say about THEM?

George

Henry,

The people who told you about the posters and graffiti should also have told you about the left wing graffiti which argues the exact opposite. By the way, I have seen very little of any of this graffiti myself (from either side of the political spectrum). Obviously, I live and work in the wrong parts of Israel.
The only transfer that has taken place so far in the region has been the transfer of Israelis OUT of the Gaza Strip. As for your list of politicians who discussed transfer as a solution to the demographic problem; Rehava'am Ze'evi was assassinated in 2001, Effi Eitam and Benny Elon are no longer in the Knesset, Tzippi Livni's solution is the two state solution, as is also Avigdor Liberman's. His concept of transfer is that of border changes, so that towns which are mainly Palestinian and are close to the 1949 armistice line will become part of a Palestinian state. He is also on record as saying that if it will bring peace, he will move out of his own home in Nokdim, which is situated in what you term the "conquered West Bank".
The only party to this conflict that is seriously talking about transfer and ethnic cleansing is the Palestinians. Any Palestinian state that would arise will have to be totally free of Jews. At the same time, they demand the "right of return" to the 1948 refugees and their descendants.

Laura

Gilbert belwether, the civilian dead in Gaza is a far lower percentage than any other army in the world. I say with certainty that Israel has the most moral army in the world. Can you prove otherwise? I am so sick of the double standards against Israel and it being held under a microscope while there are wars around the world where thousands and even millions of civilians are either wantonly or even purposefully targeted for massacre.

Duncan McFarlane

Melanie - the stories you quote are all quoting "Israeli military sources".

The IDF are one of the sides in a war. They are no more a neutral or reliable source of information than Hamas or the Al Qassam Brigades.

Yet you quote Israeli military claims as if they were unbiased reports from a neutral party on the undisputed "facts". What a travesty.

George Laird

Dear All

I wrote a great post but it appears to have been censored.

To be absolutely clear, it contained facts.

To be absolutely clear, it contained questions.

To be absolutely clear, it seems that some people live in fear of the truth.

These posts are like German U boats, they crash dive when the allies engines powered by the truth are heard flying overhead!

Can we please have a blog entitled 'Mein Gag', the right to silence dissent.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Carl

Laura, I regret to say that you post nonsense. There is no such thing as a League of Global Military Morality. Israel's conflicts (not wars) are of its own making: brutal attacks on neighbouring countries, followed by humiliating withdrawals and vicious attacks on Palestinian civilians.

I can think of no other recognised Army that deliberately targets civilians, I mean a women turning the wrong way for God's sake?

Dionysius

Stephen Rothbart @ 4.29:
Excellent post that sums up the situation. I don't often post now as one is either preaching to the converted or addressing the deaf. As a 70 year old I have left my liberal/left leanings behind, as the world has not changed very much since I was a Jewish schoolboy who was also English in Scotland - I got a taste of the mindless hate of both religious and nationalistic types. The French saying is correct in my experience - "the more things change the more they stay the same".
Well said Stephen.

Dan

James P, I'm convinced that on Israel-Palestine you are simply arguing in bad faith. Israel EVACUATED all of Gaza under Sharon. What did Israel get in return? Nothing but rockets and misery for its citizens in the south. Why didn't the Palestinians use this Israeli gesture (which I admit had an element of self interest) to try and rebuild their land? Why did they have to destroy everything to the ground?

You want Israel to recognise a movement that has sworn to kill every Jew in Palestine/Israel?

Go on CIF and spread your nonesense there.

Also, why don't you mention Egypt's role in this disaster? And why didn't Egypt take Gaza in the peace negotiations in 1978? Because they loved the idea of a Palestinian thorn in Israel's side.

stanley Jerusalem

Dionysius
March 26th, 2009 5:59pm

Mutatis mutandis. With a name like Dionysius one might have thought that one would have recognised French...

Henry Sidgwick

George,

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate you taking the time.

I don't think those who told me about the posters would deny that there is a range of opinion in Israel. They would argue that those in positions of power in the military and government tend towards one end of the spectrum rather than the other. As an outsider looking in, I think that is a reasonable simplification (but I would not claim to be able to put it more strongly).

My list of politicians started with the modern-day pioneers, and petered out as we approached the present when transfer is an accepted part of the political dialogue.

"Transfer" has been an important idea for Zionism from its early years - from Herzl, through Ben Gurion et al. up to the present day. Given the plan for a Zionist state on the whole land of Israel, you can well see why "transfer" would have to be a part of the plan. The Yishuv and the new state of Israel implemented a very efficient ethnic cleansing in 1948. Liberman and Livni are among many contemporary politicians whose concern about ethnic homogeneity tempts them to consider population transfer.

I am not sure why you highlight my calling the West Bank "conquered" - invaded, occupied, conquered, annexed, expropriated. This is not a matter that can be subject to any dispute.

And yes, the Palestinians do insist that refugees have the right to return, in accordance with international law. Of course, it is more complicated now. Israel has long since appropriated their property. Many villages are now nature reserves. Many others have new owners. The precise details will have to be negotiated by both sides. But it should not be impossible to reach agreement of some sort, even if it includes a large measure of compensation instead of return.

It is reassuring that Liberman and Livni, as you say, are advocates of a two state solution. The problem with many Israeli politicians is that what the mean by a "state" for the Palestinians is derisory - enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and settler roads and roadblocks, with resources such as water controlled by Israel, with all access controlled by Israel, and little chance of a viable economy. The Palestinians have by now had to give up any hope of any of the 78% of Mandate Palestine that is now Israel. They are asking only for the 22% that international law has designated as Occupied Palestinian Territory. The best offer Israel has so far given them was in 2000, when Barak offered 14%, chopped up and surrounded as I have described, and no mention of the refugees. If the offer was refused, he had plans to implement it unilaterally (sounds familiar, doesn't it?)

The point is that there is a deal there to be made. It only requires Israel to give up some of what it has taken. This ought to be possible, although clearly outside help, monitoring, security guarantees etc. will likely be required (i.e. the US has to take a hand as a genuine honest broker, not just as patron of Israel and whatever it demands).

This is absolutely not a hate-filled, anti-Semitic, Islamist loving position. Conflicts have to be settled somehow.

logdon

George Laird
March 26th, 2009 5:26pm

Dear All

I wrote a great post but it appears to have been censored.

A bit like Descartes tree. I suspect though that, rather than being a resoundingly crashing mighty oak it's unformed and spindly sapling qualities did not resonate in the way you wished. Talk about hubris?

Gil

Henry Sidgwick, so Israel, and only Israel, is to be the world poster child for the return of refugees, is it? And then you wonder why people who hold your views are (erroneously in many cases as it so happens) tarred with the antisemitism brush?

You've clearly never heard of the UN partition plan from 1947 (No. 181) which gave the Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine their own state. And what happened on the day after the vote:

"On the day after the vote, a spate of Arab attacks left seven Jews dead and scores more wounded. Shooting, stoning, and rioting continued apace in the following days. The consulates of Poland and Sweden, both of whose governments had voted for partition, were attacked. Bombs were thrown into cafes, Molotov cocktails were hurled at shops, a synagogue was set on fire."

And then the Arab armies attacked the fledgling Jewish state. Israel lost 1% of its population defending itself.

Duncan McFarlane

Carl wrote "I can think of no other recognised Army that deliberately targets civilians, I mean a women turning the wrong way for God's sake?"

While i'm not a defender of the Israeli military in general they are certainly not the only military that has targeted civilians. Most militaries have at some point and the Israeli military, while guilty of many war crimes, are not unique in that respect.

US forces for instance in 'free fire zones' throughout the Vietnam war fired on civilians - just as they were ordered to fire on refugees crossing the border between North and South in the Korean war - and Coalition snipers deliberately targeted civilians and ambulances in the April and November 2004 assaults on Fallujah according to eyewitnesses including aid workers and journalists quoted by the BBC - see e.g http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3653223.stm.

Duncan McFarlane

Dan wrote "Israel EVACUATED all of Gaza under Sharon. What did Israel get in return?"

A green light from the US government to annexe as much of the West Bank as it wanted and resettle all the settlers from Gaza there.

Bush was unpopular over Iraq so forced the Gaza withdrawal on Sharon in return for giving Israel a free hand in the West Bank.

See e.g the late Tanya Reinhardt's book 'The Roadmap to Nowhere'

George Laird

Dear Logdon

Stop your petty jealously.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Duncan McFarlane

Gil - If there's such a lack of space and resources to support refugees in Israel how is it that the Israeli government gives a 'right of return' to Israel to anyone who is Jewish, or had one Jewish grandparent, or is married to someone of the Jewish religion? About the only requirement for a right of return to Israel seems to be 'No Arabs please, we're Israeli'

See the 'Law of Return' and its amendments on the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs' website -
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law+of+Return+570-t1950.htm

Gil

Duncan McFarlane, why don't you pick up a good book on Zionism and see for yourself why there is a 'Law of Return'? Hint: it's to do with antisemitism culminating in the Holocaust. When you show as much concern for the Jews who were chucked out of the Arab states after pogroms in which their relatives were murdered, and emigrated to Israel as refugees then maybe I'll take your comments more seriously.

Also, Israeli Arabs are citizens of Israel enjoying all the rights that citizenship gives including voting in elections and having their reps sit in the Israeli parliament. No other country in the Middle East has such a vibrant democracy.

So stop playing ignorant or people may suspect that you have an agenda.

Duncan McFarlane

Gil - I've read plenty of histories of Israel and Palestine including the Israeli zionist historian Benny Morris' 'Righteous Victims'. I've also read books by non-Zionists though.

I don't have to be against any right of return for Palestinians to have sympathy for Jewish victims of pogroms and the Holocaust either. Many Holocaust survivors - like Primo Levi - were also highly critical of Israel's wars.

Providing refuge for one group of refugees by making another lot of people into homeless refugees in the process is not justice.

Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority are also democracies. Israel is not the only democracy in the Middle East, nor does it have a better human rights record than Lebanon or the PA.

Israeli Arabs do have the right to vote - they don't have any protection from being shot dead by Israeli police, when demonstrating peacefully or, even, sitting on the balconies of their own homes, as they were in 2002 by the dozen, while not a round was fired at violent Jewish demonstrators. Nor were any armed police convicted over killings like that of Asel Asleh, an Arab Israeli peace campaigner
http://www.seedsofpeace.org/about/aseltribute

(see also Jonathan Cook's book 'Blood and Religion')

There are also plenty of Israelis critical of their governments' actions.

Duncan McFarlane

Stephen - you make wild generalisations about Israelis and Palestinians and Judaism and Islam which don't even come close to being true.

There are extremist Israelis and plenty of them - Baruch Goldstein, who gunned down a mosque full of Arabs and the murderer of Yitzakh Rabin being just two of them.

Many Palestinians support extremist groups as a result of
enduring extreme poverty and seeing their friends, family and neighbours killed by Israeli forces with guns, tanks ,artillery, bombs, missiles and drones. Most of them are just as much victims of political violence as Israelis who have seen their friends and families killed by rockets or suicide bombers.

That is not the result of ideology - the ideology is the result of the suffering, just as when unemployment rocketed in the North of England when textile mills closed a large minority of white people turned to the neo-fascist BNP and a large minority of British Asians there turned to Islamic fundamentalism.

Treat any group of people of any religion or nationality in the way Palestinians have been treated and they will become extreme in their views because their daily life is one of extreme suffering.

Kill them by the hundreds and thousands and a minority will call for calm and negotiation, just as a minority of Americans called for it after 9-11, but the majority will unfortunately demand revenge, just as a majority of Americans demanded revenge after the 9-11 attacks.

Henry Sidgwick

Gil,

Tell me, Why is it that people who criticise Israel are tarred with the anti-Semitism brush?

And did the UN really give the Palestinian Arabs a state? in part of Palestine? forty what per cent? and they weren't grateful?

Gilbert Belwether

To all those who replied to my comment about the T-shirts (except for Gilbert Ratchet, that is; I see no reason to converse with someone who calls me a moron): no, it is not the news story of the century. My point was twofold. First, that it's easy to imagine how Ms. Phillips would have reacted if it was a Jewish rather than a Palestinian woman, so that her double standard is evident. Second and more importantly, it's a worrying symptom of the creeping uglification of my society due to the ongoing conflict - a point I would have thought many here would sympathize with, since the "moral decay of Britain/the West" is such a favorite leitmotif on this blog. Endemic and increasing racism is one of the prices Israel pays for the constant state of war (witness Avigdor Lieberman), and these shirts are simply one sign of this. I realize this is of little concern to non-Israelis, though, so maybe this is the wrong forum for such observations.

Gilbert Belwether

Ian G: As far as I can tell, the IDF has given no numbers as to how many of the "militant" or "unaffiliated" categories as children. It only says, "Of the 309 innocent civilians killed, 189 were children under the age of 15." There's nothing about the age breakdown of the other categories, nor did I say anything about it in my comment. I'm not the one playing games with facts.

Gilbert Belwether

David - Show me where I "sneer at the IDF for stopping the operation". My point was that they should never have started the operation, because (moral considerations aside) it was counterproductive and predictably so.

I do "argue for the cessation of ALL hostilities and rage about the deaths of women and children on BOTH sides". (Does Melanie?) When one comments on a blog post one responds to the points made therein. What would be the purpose of one more denunciation of Hamas in this forum, of all places? I have no interest in preaching to the choir.

Gilbert Belwether

Miranda Rose Smith - "Finish the war" in what way, exactly? Spell it out, if you would. Completely destroy the Gaza Strip? Deport all its inhabitants? What is the military secret weapon that you believe could have ended the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

There is no military solution to this conflict. If there is, it certainly isn't for lack of trying that it hasn't been found so far.

ahad ha'amoratsim

Henry S, the only ethnic cleansing that Israel has committed is the expulsion of Jews from the Sinai, Chevron, and various parts of Yehuda and Shomron.

Come back when you muster some outrage over the Palestinian demand that no Jews be allowed to live in the future Palestinian state and the west's tolerance of that demand. Or over the Palestinian law that makes it a capital offense to sell land to a Jew.

And thanks to the many posters who have pointed out that one can never trust anything reported by a Jew or an Israeli. Remind me again about the racism inherent in Zionism.

phil

For all those querying the right of return .it rather shows how little you understand of the reasons for that right -when the second world war was over there were so many who could not return to their countries of origin ,some went back to Poland and were massacred ,many countries wanted no part of them ,so where could they go -one place ,Eretz Yisroel a beacon of light to survivors of the Shoah , and a land that was seriously underdeveloped -

Jewish people all round the world paid for trees to plant in the Huleh valley to reclaim swamps .Kibbutzim were formed by those immigrants together with the Sabras and they fought a fight they did not want to hold on to the dream of freedom in a land where they would not be persecuted .This was the only land that guaranteed them a place to live ,;and who tried to keep them out and who sent those they could catch back to internment camps behind barbed wires .do you need me to tell you ? On the very first day the state of Israel was declared Tel Aviv was bombed and five Arab armies invaded with the intention of turning the Med red with the blood of the Jews .Despite all the rhetoric here that the Arab ,s were driven out ,that remains a lie and still more than a million live there in peace -Those lies will continue but all the twisting of facts will never make it true .I suggest for many who only have read sundries go and see the film "catch a giant shadow " about the life of the great Mickey Marcus .rip ,or even Exodus ,they will at least give some flavour of those times and will not tax anyone's brains too much .I wish Penny or some of our girls were writing this as they do it so much better than me ,but needs must

Duncan mcf writes screeds on many subjects , I hope he knows more about them than he does on this ,and that the humanity that he cares for includes the Jewish people too ,so far it has not been displayed ,nor has his answer to the most polite post I addressed to him earlier .It is those like you Duncan who bother me the most, not the carls and the ridiculous laird .You are educated and you do your homework and yet you still choose to write so much that is untrue -I have visited your web site and I know you can do better ,the other fools cannot so your burden is heavier .Both sides need help and compassion to bring about the world that I hope we both want .

steve

and while we're at it .. could someone get Alexei Sayle to apologise for his comments on Radio 4 last Sunday. He somewhat arrogantly claimed that he (and that Lennox person) were right all along about Israels' "war crimes" ... because he had read these UNSUBSTANTIATED allegations in the "Independent" ... sheesh! ... guess what? al Beeb didn't really chase up the allegations bit!

Yehuda

Anti-Zionists are deluded if they really believe that attaching the phrase, "according to international law" to every egregious lie and deception which they express will fool many people.
Israel, including Judea and Samaria, is a product of Jewish loyalty to the Land, Jewish sacrifice, Jewish labour,Jewish enterprise, Jewish initiative, AS WELL AS the recognition by...wait for it...international law as enunciated in the endorsement by the Council of The League of nations in 1922, of the Balfour Declaration, which recognised the Jewish Nation's claim to national self-determination in its reconstituted state in The Land of Israel.

Why, even the leading Arab figure of the time, the Emir Faisal, recognised this Jewish claim, only to be betrayed (as were the Jews subsequently) by Imperial Britain.
But today's pseudo-left, pseudo-liberals, pseudo-human rights activists et alii have once again taken up the fascist, racist cause of anti-Jewism.

They don't want the Jews to have a state where they constitute the majority, but they despise those exilic Jews who live among them as a minority.
The Arab war machine is for them a surrogate mechanism for the attempt to erase the Jewish identity, in accordance with the values of Hitler and Marx.

Those who don't accept these truths, too bad for you.

Ian G

Gilbert, are you really sayong that of the 320 'unaffiliated' some of them are children? This would mean that the IDF had ascertained that the other children were non-affiliated. It follows that there is a possibility that some of the 'unaffiliated' children could be terrorists. This is not good for the Palestinian Arabs as it is an admission that they might possibly be using child terrorists. Alternatively, the children have already been counted. It is interesting to note that the IDF count children under 15. Could it be that there are combatants OVER 15? Again, not good for PA PR.

What was thatabout number games?

C. Gee

Duncan McF,
A Palestinian "right of return" to Israel, despite noisy assertions to the contrary, does not exist in international law. No General Assembly Resolution of the UN (which would not reach the status of law, in any case), no Security Council Resolution (look again at 242), no international declaration, protocol, or convention delivers such a right to the Palestinian refugees. Repatriation is not a valid claim, as there was never a Palestinian state. Those who abandoned property may be compensated. As for the Law of Return, it is a law of the right of repatriation of Jews to their national homeland, whether they come from Brooklyn, Germany, Syria or Iraq. Please note, Non-Jews, including Arabs, may become Israeli residents or citizens under other statutes, which are similar to those of other nations.

Gil

Duncan, it's a sign you've lost the argument when you shift from topic to topic like a hyperactive teenager. Throwing soundbites around is no substitute for proper debate.

Henry Sidgwick, criticism of Israel and its policies is not antisemitism as such (per se). Why is it that critics of Islamism are tarred with the brush of Islamophobia?

Stephen Rothbart

Duncan, yes there are and have been extremists in Israel. And they behave atrociously. But as we saw from the TV cameras this weekend, the Israeli Police were out there protecting the Arabs, because Israel is a democratic country with a judiciary and a law that has to be enforced.

The Supreme Court there often intervenes in Israeli/Arab matters on the Arab point of view.

On the other hand, the Palestinians have no rule of law other than gang justice, that allowed Hamas leaders to throw handcuffed members of Fatah out of windows to their death.

Of course millions demonstrated throughout the European capitals and the Middle East against such an outrage...oh no wait... they didn't.

Original Tony

Carl, George Laird...not a single murmur from you about all the people muslims have butchered in Sudan...not a single murmur and thousands of them have been women and kids...surely worth more than the 300 odd killed in Gaza...a deafening silence from you and your ilk.

Henry Sidgwick

Yehuda,

You persist in your inaccurate description of the Mandate. In its attempt to fulfil its mandate, Britain proposed an almost democratic binational state (it offered the Zionists much more than proportionate representation), and cantons as in Switzerland, before falling back on partition giving the Zionist a disproportionate share of the land.

You also persist in your inaccurate description of the current state of international law. In respect of East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza it was set out unambiguously in the opinion delivered by the International Court of Justice.

Ahad,

The Yishuv/Israel carried out a very effective ethnic cleansing in 1947/48. It is a matter of record (for those willing to read the record without preconceptions).

Are you protesting that illegal settlers on Occupied Palestinian Territory would be required to leave the land they are squatting on as part of any settlement?

C. Gee,

Refugees have the right to return to their land after the end of hostilities.

I suggest you look more closely at Israel's immigration rules and their implementation.

George Laird

Dear Tony at 9.43 am

Not a single word by me on the problems I am having decorating either.

I can't fit everything into one day.

Stop writing nonsense.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Original Tony

Mr Hazlitt...you found a 'rare piece of humanity' on this blog, to the effect that a person should be allowed to live anywhere they like and not be disqualified because of their ethnicity.

Would you please post that discovery off to Hamas and every other terror organization in the world, telling them the Jews can now live in Israel.

Then, maybe just maybe, we will have humanity in place and world peace will follow!

Puke!

Gilbert Belwether

Ian, I'm not concerned with PA PR. I was reporting the IDF figures as they are, without assumptions or interpretations. You're the one making those.

Linda Smith

George Laird: a propos your response to Original Tony's point addressed to you "...not a single murmur from you about all the people muslims have butchered in Sudan...surely worth more than the 300 odd killed in Gaza..."

Your comment "I can't fit everything into one day" begs the question: why your fixation then on Gaza? Is it because Jews are involved?

Linda Smith

Henry Sidgwick: you can blather on about International Law till the cows come home but, in view of Jewish history of persecution, Expulsions, Inquisition, pogroms, Holocaust, the Jews in Israel are not going to do anything that puts their safety as a Sovereign Jewish State at risk.

Antisemitism is a state of mind - not land. But Jews know full well that they need their own land to protect themselves from antisemites.

There are no gas chambers in Israel.

Duncan McFarlane

Stephen - i'm not defending Hamas' armed wing murdering Fatah supporters (or Fatah's armed wing murdering Hamas supporters, which also happens. I don't see how either can make Israeli killings of Palestinian civilians right though.

It's also worth noting that the US, Israeli and Egyptian governments co-operated to arm Fatah's armed wing to carry out an attempted coup against the elected Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh - and refused to lift sanctions on the Palestinian Authority when a coalition government between Hamas and Fatah was formed in 2007, resulting in renewed civil war. There's been a very deliberate Israeli government policy of dividing the Palestinians to weaken them and make annexation of the west bank easier.

See sources for
http://www.duncanmcfarlane.org/Israel-Palestine/thecoup/

Original Tony - What do Palestinians have to do with war crimes committed by the Sudanese government? Or were all Christians responsible for the Oklahoma bombing too in your view?

Linda Smith

Duncan McFarlane (26 Mar 9:46pm): "....the ideology is the result of the suffering, just as when unemployment rocketed in the North of England when textile mills closed a large minority of white people turned to the neo-fascist BNP and a large minority of British Asians there turned to Islamic fundamentalism,"

No. Islamic fundamentalism is not the result of "suffering". It is the result of religious belief. Islamic fundamentalism has spread in Britain due to the Government's stupidity in allowing foreign religious fanatics to preach in the UK.

Ever visited the US. There are plenty of religious people there, Born Again Christians and all sorts. Go to Utah, a state full of religious Mormons. Do you think they turned to religion because of "suffering"?

PS Exactly what is a "large minority"? Is it large or is it a minority, ie small?

Henry Sidgwick

Linda Smith,

I would appreciate some clarification.

Are you saying that Israel will continue to disregard the rule of law?

Are you insinuating there are gas chambers in the US, in the UK, France, Australia, South America...? I doubt that you are, but why then raise the spectre of gas chambers?

And are you saying that giving back to the Palestinians a small part of what was taken from them would create a threat to the very existence of the state of Israel?

Original Tony

Linda Smith..9:51 pm...well said and my point exactly.

Linda Smith

Henry Sigwick: the whole world stood by and did nothing to stop the Nazi Holocaust. France recently admitted sending French Jews to the death camps of their own volition. The end of the Nazi death machine was a "by product" of the allied endeavour to free themselves from the Nazi threat, not to save the Jews. Jews know they stand alone.

Gaza was given to the Palestinians. They trashed everything the Jews left and, instead of making peace, decided to make war with Israel.

The "Palestinians" don't want peace with Israel, they want to destroy it.

phil

Gil
March 27th, 2009 8:54am

"Duncan, it's a sign you've lost the argument when you shift from topic to topic like a hyperactive teenager. Throwing soundbites around is no substitute for proper debate.--"""""2

Gil -duncan does not answer questions -he only makes statements -you should see his web site -if ever I have seen narcissism it is this man -I have asked him simple questions and he chooses to ignore them -no doubt because they are too difficult ,and I gave him the benefit of the doubt ,obviously I was wrong .He is the type who I find the most blame with ,he writes as an educated man unlike the laird and carl et al ,but his distortions carry more weight for the people who live with soundbites and is therefore more responsible for the ongoing problems by continuing to foment them .

phil

surely the laird did not write this -did he?

"Stop writing nonsense.

Yours sincerely

George Laird--
----------------
obviously no mirrors in the lairds cave .

Henry Sidgwick

Original Tony,

Melanie Phillips writes in defence of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Contributors respond to her defence of Israel. It would be a non sequitur to respond to her defence of Israel by talking about Sudan, or Sri Lanka, or Kashmir, or Tibet. Your point exactly...?

Henry Sidgwick

Linda Smith,

So you are saying that Israel will continue to disregard the law, or...?

And you mentioned gas chambers because...? Perhaps as a way of silencing debate?

And who is it "gave" the "Palestinians" Gaza?

And was it the "Palestinians" who hired the IDF and their bulldozers?

Maybe instead of assuming what "Palestinians" want, Israel should try talking seriously to Palestinians.

Israel has spent sixty years looking for ever more extreme counter-parties to decline to negotiate with on principle while annexing yet more land. The longer this goes on, the more brutalised Palestinian society will become under Israeli oppression, and the more difficult a settlement to achieve. This appears to be deliberate policy on the part of the Israelis to achieve complete victory. They may well succeed, but as Tacitus said of the Romans, "they made a desert, and called it peace.

Linda Smith

Henry Sidgwick, arch Arab apologist, your comments attacking Israelis (Jews) for not making a settlement with the Arabs are just another load of inversionist antisemitic bilge. I quote here Truthtriumphs comment to Alanadale on the The Durban II Controversy thread (29 Mar 09 11.43pm ). For "Alanadale" substitute "Henry Sidgwick":
"Creating a Palestinian state would make it a 23 state solution instead of a 22 state solution which obtains at the present time. 22 Arab, 1 miniscule Jewish one.
Considering that Jordan is an entirely artificial entity, AND its populace comprises 70% Palestinian Arabs, I'd like to have an answer from our resident sage, alanadale, why that country is not called Palestine.
Methinks, I know the answer.
As a prominent MAB member articulated on the BBC, (btw MAB is the British outpost of the Muslim Brotherhood), on the subject of a Palestinian state---- we do not need another Islamic state, we just don't want a Jewish state in our midst.
So there you have it!"
Yes! there you have it Henry Sidgwick.

Henry Sidgwick

Linda Smith

Was that intended as a reasoned response?

And still you use the tawdry trick of accusing everyone who disagrees with you of anti-Semitism.

I have to infer from your comments that your idea of a just and peaceful settlement is to complete the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their land.

phil

Linda Smith this man persists in a similar way as a lawyer who has a really bad case by answering everything you say with "we require further and better particulars"-he twists facts to suit his agenda ,so what is the point on threads like these in arguing with him ,he will never change his view .it sustains him ,eventually his hatred will consume him and he will not change even one persons mind --I come here to learn from some amazing people ,also to try and put my view across in the hope of a better world and sometimes to amuse ,if only myself -those like sidgewick /hazlitt /alandale -just waste our time and you are worth more than that -at least the laird provides a little fun and carls opinions are long since ignored -I assure you when nobody responds to their nonsense they will disappear-the independent will love them .

Linda Smith

Henry Sidgwick posted "I have to infer from your comments that your idea of a just and peaceful settlement is to complete the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their land."

You are irrational as ever.
How many Arab Israeli citizens have been "ethnically cleansed" from Israel since the end of the War of Independence?

Henry Sidgwick

Linda Smith

The answer to your question is a few thousand here and a few thousand there.

The more interesting point is that "transfer" is again, as it has been throughout the history of Zionism, a topic of serious discussion in government circles, among the military, and academics such as Benny Morris. It is seen as the only way to solve the problem of demographics.

Linda Smith

Henry Sidgwick: Seems the Arabs have made a pretty good job of ethnically cleansing Jews from their countries - around 800,000 so far since 1948, not counting the ones they've murdered.

What Just and peaceful settlement do you recommend for the Jewish refugees?

phil

Linda Smith-WHY? he just continues to pull you into his wicked web of deceit .please stop demeaning yourself by responding to his nonsense .