The nerve! Doesn't this man realise that black is white?

Carl

Well yes, I mean we really shouldn't challenge a boorish, loudmouthed Fascist who wants to plunge the region into war, should we?

George Laird

Dear All

"However, since it appears that in the theatre of the absurd that in Israel passes for a political system the Foreign Minister may soon get carted off to jail for corruption".

What is this?

High treason?

Melanie actually complaining about an Israeli?

I read this piece and not a single complaint about a Palestinian anywhere too.

Finally, congratulations to Melanie for crossing the rubicon and advocting jail for those Israelis who commit crime.

Took long enough but then the good weather has just started!

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

ps I wonder if her rent a mob will echo her thoughts on jail?

Original Tony

George Laird..."rent a mob" here, I heartily concur with Melanie.

Carl, why do you interpret self-defence as a desire to plunge the region into war?

All of Israel's wars have been defensive in nature, including pre-emptive strikes. But what would an armchair lounge lizard who has never been to Israel know about that?

YouCannotBeSerious!

Original Tony - How on earth can Israel's invasion of Egypt in 1956 be described as defensive?

Virginia Fettarappa

I'm looking forward to Original Tony's answer!

Robin

YouCannotBeSerious! - it's somewhat disengenous of you to describe the 1956 war as something kicked off by Israel alone. Have you conveniently forgotten that it was a Tripartite War involving British & French troops?

David Ossitt

YouCannotBeSerious!

"Original Tony - How on earth can Israel's invasion of Egypt in 1956 be described as defensive?"

I suppose; because that is exactly what it was.

George.

"What is this? High treason?
Melanie actually complaining about an Israeli?"

Come off it George; Melanie in my opinion, always sticks to the truth and the facts, if in making any comment this meant criticising the actions or lack of action by Israeli politicians
then she would still write the truth.

And surely we can all agree that their political system is rubbish.

Carl

OT - you know, you make rather foolish assumptions. Still, dream on of your pure land, cleansed of "mongrels".

Indigo121

Haber is one of the folks that named during the 90's the 700+ victims of Palestinian terror as "Peace victims".

He refuses to be fooled by reality.

Gert

If there's anything the Palestinians lack, it's firepower. It's the power differential that makes it possible for Israel, backed by the US, to for ever expand its borders and then blame the 'teggogists'!

But since as Melanie Phillips doesn't recognise the settlements are illegal under I'nal law, she will always give Israel a blank check.

Lieberman is the best news for the anti-Zionist cause since sliced bread.

blue_&_white_avenger

"Original Tony - How on earth can Israel's invasion of Egypt in 1956 be described as defensive?"
Israel reacted here to a) a vast arms build-up in Nasser's Egypt - this was when the Soviets came in big-time & built the Aswan dam 7 b) Israel got fed up with the incessant fedayeen raids into her territory which were a less sophisticated but more deadly variant of the current rocket attacks from Gaza.
The fact that Britain & France joined the fray didn't help Israel much.

Hysteria

'56 was NOT an Israeli war of aggression - it was a cock-up involving the last rolls of the dice of the dying British and French Empires...

Seva Gaft

"If there's anything the Palestinians lack, it's firepower. It's the power differential that makes it possible for Israel, backed by the US, to for ever expand its borders and then blame the 'teggogists'!"
If there's anything Gegt lacks, it's grey matter. But please, don't blame this piece of human gagbage for mocking some ethnic groups cliché-istic pronunciation of "r", let this creature have at least some fun....

George Laird

Dear David Ossitt

You know me, tell it like it is.

You are correct that Melanie uses the truth and facts.

You missed out something else which appears in her articles as well.

Subjective opinion, inflammatory language and character assassination.

I am sure that Melanie would want all her talents listed rather than those few that you highlighted.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Nicole S

Gert: How has Israel expanded its borders? The West Bank, originally allocated to Israel by the Mandate, was annexed by Jordan. Israel is committed to withdrawing from the West Bank, and unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005.

Nicole S

Gert: What exactly are 'teggogists'?

Alex Bensky

Well, out here in North Possum Holler, Michigan, we don't get out much but I'm not sure how giving up the entire Sinai and withdrawing unconditionally from Gaza, and pullbacks from PA areas is "expansionism." Must be something in that word you sophisticated Europeans see that we don't.

However, Melanie has for once missed the point entirely in her remarks about world approval. The world approved of Israel after Oslo because it expects deeds from Israel and words from the Arabs. In 1993 Israel performed actions and the Palestinians said things...including that by golly they were going to drop those little points in their charter about wiping out Israel. They've never actually done that, but they said they would and that's all the world expected them to do.

As to how to gain world approval today, Golda Meir understood it. She knew what the world wants: a progressive, liberal, dead Jewish people.

Adam B.

George laird, on which human rights issues in the Middle East do you campaign, not involving Israel?

You have repeatedly refused to answer this. I'm even beginning to wonder that the answer might just be...none.

Why is that?

Adam B.

What a joke - Carl complaining about racsim, when Carl has repeatedly refused to condemn the Hamas charter, which calls for the extermination of every Jew on earth. In fact, Carl has supported Hamas, this racist, anti-semitic terror organization.

What a hypocrite.

leo solomon

IF ALL THE VICTIMS AND POTENTIAL VICTIMS OF AGGRESSION WOULD DISAPPEAR THERE WOULD BE NO MORE WAR!!- AND THE WORLD WOULD BE WHAT!!?

Carl

Adam B, my best wishes to you for an enjoyable half term.

solemnman

There were the little matters,in 56, of the blocking of Israeli shipping through the Suez Canal and the Red Sea,the build up of Egyptian forces on Israel's border,the genocidal rhetoric from Nasser and the numerous cross border raids by Egypt's creation and surrogate the PLO.The 56 war was instigated by these gestures any one of which would have been sufficient justification for Israel's reaction.

anglicus

Nicole S. If people are going to post their comments, you would think they would at least use a spell checker! I love MP's column solely for the laughs reading spelling mistakes. Somebody said "Enjoy your half-term" Just about sums it up really, too may holidays, not enough education.

greg

Well it seems to me that that carl labeled everything jewish as the Fascist so no point to discus anything with this antiisemite also George Laird play same tune

Labhras

Just listen to the "eternal victims" singing in harmony.

Woe is us.We who the world hates.We who all evil is directed towards.We who are to be in eternal conflict because of what we are, and not what we do.

Nauseating--positively nauseating.

The scam is disintegrating --folks.

phil

solemnman it took a lot of posts before anybody said it like it really was- all you posters should read your post again and again even the indescribable carl -Israel has always had to fight defensive wars ,albeit strike before you are struck ones as in 1967.

Carl

Greg, I'm guessing that comprehension isn't your strongest point.
Phil, if you can support such a creature as Lieberman then you really need to examine your conscience.

Original Tony

Virginia and 'youcannoBeserious', other posters (above)have cleared up why the Israelis attacked first in 1956. They were being blockaded and Egypt had built up huge quantities of arms ready to Invade Israel. It is sound military doctrine to attack a superior enemy first, to take the edge off his advantage over you. Despite an initial attack by Israel the attack is still defensive in nature and anyone attending a military academy will tell you this. It is classified as defensive because the initial aims are limited and are not always strategic in nature. This shows that you have no knowledge of military tactics, nor terms and definitions used by the military.

Another little point needs to be made here, when Israel took back its own west bank in 1967, it offered that land to the arabs in august 1967 in return for a final peace treaty. The arab league issued a statement from khartoum shortly after; the statement being the infamous 3 'nos'. NO to negotiations NO to peace and NO to recognition of Israel.

So, for all the bleeding hearts out there, like Carl, the 'palestinians' were offered a two state solution in 1967 and they rejected it out of hand. Therefore, the land remains Israel (as it originally was) and the Jews can build whatever they darn well like there.

At least Israel has not kicked out the arabs in the west bank as Jordan did to over half a million Jews when Jordan was founded.

YA

..oh what a smell, what a joy, these gorgeous, familiar flocks.. Is this the wind from Guardian side, or it is from The Independent? Breathe deeper people, don't miss a molecule from that distinguished scent!

carl

OT - You are a kind of armchair Action Man owner.

stanley Jerusalem

anglicus
April 4th, 2009 11:03am

Nicole S. "If people are going to post their comments, you would think they would at least use a spell checker! I love MP's column solely for the laughs reading spelling mistakes."
It's so gratifying to know that this blog appeals even to the lowest common denominator.
Orthographers ov tha Werld Unight!

Adam B.

Carl, before you lecture phil, I would suggest that if you can support the bigoted, anti-semitic, anti-democratic, authoritarian violent terror group that is Hamas, you need to examine your conscience.

Adam B.

Awaiting your reply george laird.

In your own time...

blue_&_white_avenger

Hi Original Tony. Just to modify what you just wrote. 'The "palestinians" were offered a 2 state solution in 1967'. This is not correct - there were no Palestinians in 1967 - they were only invented by Arafat & crew after 1Yom Kippuy 1973 when the Arab nations realised that they weren't going to vanquish the Jews by military means.
In 1967, when Israel offered back the conquered territories, they would have gone to Egypt (as finally happened anyway except they didn't want Gaza, not surprisingly), to Jordan (who relinquished the West Bank bar border modifications) & Syria - which is the most hostile of the three.
It would still be much better to resettle the palestinian refugees amongst other countries who would accept them - there were over 1/2 million in Kuwait / S.Arabia before Gulf War I, but since they threw in their lot with S.Hussain, they were thrown out when the Kuwaitis returned to their homes....

Joan

Thankyou Solemnman and Original Tony - Keep on trying to get the truth out there - Do not think you will manage to help people like Carl and George. They have such a lack of knowledge and history but much sarcasm to hide behind.

al ramy

Investigators: Probe suggests Lieberman guilty of corruption :
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1076401.html

The corruption investigation into Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman is likely to produce charges of money laundering, fraud and breach of trust, police sources said Saturday, adding that questioning of the Yisrael Beiteinu leader was nearing an end.

Unless additional testimony is needed, the police will submit their recommendations on filing an indictment in the coming weeks, the sources said.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Carl: I'll ignore "boorish, loudmouthed fascist," but what makes you think Liebermqn wants to plunge the region into war?

Nannette

It's amazing that the Israeli left will only file "corruption" charges against those it perceives as "right" wing.

Olmert was one of the most corrupt of all Israel's ministers and wasn't carted off to jail, nor charged with anything - because he was willing to sell Israel out to the highest bidder!

Sadly, Israel has allowed this left-wing distortion to affect its legal system, justice system and political system. Which is why only patriots of Israel are made to suffer the weight of the law, even more so than Palestinian terrorists.

phil

adam B .carls only good for a laugh,---conscience ,comprehension -not on the menu ,and do we care ?well I don.t

Linda Smith

Gert (3 April): The British Mandate granted Jews permission to settle territory that included the region now called the "West Bank".
The Palestinians refused partition. Therefore, the terms of the Mandate still hold and the settlements are legal. The only illegal settlements are the ones for which Israel has not given permission.

Carl

phil, I hope that you can square your conscience with supporting a Fascist. Perhaps you believe that we too should demand people swear allegiance to the State? Try and answer honestly and perhaps intelligently.

wonderer

Original Tony, we're on the same side, so I'm sorry to have to tell you that your "half a million" is wrong. A well informed friend in Israel states: "Jordan was founded in 1948 when Transjordan invaded the West Bank.

Jordan first imprisoned all the Jews who had survived that attack and later expelled everyone of them........with no exception.

That is correct.........and several thousand were involved........but not half a million.

There were only 600,000 Jews in Palestine in 1948."

Adam B.

Carl, instead of demanding answers from Phil perhaps you would be so kind as to clarify why you support a racist organization which openly declares its intention to commit genocide against Jewish people?
To my knowledge, Mr Lieberman has not advocated mass murder, unlike Hamas.

Carl

Adam B, I regret to say that I do not feel any obligations to answer a question from you, even if it is to attempt for you to help a nice but rather silly contributor.

Apologise and condemn Israeli atrocities, then I might consider commenting on the translation of the Hamas Charter.

Andras

An additional reason to Israel's being part of the Anglo-French-Israeli invasion of Egyptian territory. Ever since the 1949 ceasefire Egypt prevented shipping to and from Eilat, the Israeli port on the Red Sea by force of arms. Given that the Gulf of Aqaba is an international waterway, this was an ongoing act of agression on the part of Egypt. Israel's action was justified, and also in that sense, in additon to those mentioned by others, yes, defensive.

Laura

What is it with this Carl fella?

Such a big mouth, but always so quiet about "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

I wonder why.

Viscount Boaz.

My word Carl! you are a slippery fellow.

Derek BLADES

Ms. Phillips writes "the world approved of Israel during Oslo because it thought that now Israel would never again use military force to defend itself, which of course Jews are forbidden by the world to do".

It takes skill to pack so much rubbish into one sentence. How on earth does she know what the world thinks about Israel? You are not omniscient Madam, and your knowledge of the world actually seems pretty limited. Just a few blogs ago you were placing Bulgaria at the centre of Europe.

And who forbids Jews from defending themselves? What most sensible people would like to forbid are the assassinations of Arab leaders, theft of Arab land in the continuing settlement programme, imprisonment of hundreds of Palestinian men and the senseless attacks on Lebanon and Gaza that have resulted in thousands of innocent deaths. None of this is about Jews defending themselves. On the contrary these actions increase the dangers to Israel. No-one has the right to forbid Jews from doing that but I do not know of anyone who has done so.

Linda Smith

Derek Blades: what most sensible people would like to forbid is the Talebanisation of Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon by Hamas and Hizbollah.

Adam B.

Carl, who are you then to demand answers from Phil, when you steadfastly refuse to answer a reasonable point put to you?

In previous threads, you have demonstrated clear support for Hamas. Why are you so afraid to declare your support now?

Adam B.

Still awaiting your reply George...why have you run away? Come on, don't be shy!

Dixon

It is really odd that after months...literally months...of various people asking him, Carl still refuses to denounce Hamas...even to perform some kind of word-play to imply that he doesn't support them, for purely debating purposes! He really must LOVE them!

Terry

Well said Melanie.

The FM's speech was founded on the Road Map. The Road Map (if any of the anitsemitic terror loving nudnicks in here care to look at it) is a PERFORMANCE based plan. it requires the pretend palis to FIRST stop antisemitic incitement and violence THEN Israel is to perform its part fo the bargain.

All the FM pointed out was that Israel is still waiting for the pretend palis to perform. Indeed, Israel is still waiting for large parts of the arab world to perform under Resolution 242.

Arab intransigence has always dragged Israel to war, not the other way around!!

That the FM's words are even controversial shows the immoral depths that Israel haters, together with Israel's discredited opposition have descended to. They are where german nazis were in about 1939. They see, they hear, but their fascist hatred of Jews is all powerful, so they just don't care about dead Jews, Jewish rights or good old fashioned justice.

phil

Carl
April 5th, 2009 4:09pm
"""
phil, I hope that you can square your conscience with supporting a Fascist. Perhaps you believe that we too should demand people swear allegiance to the State? Try and answer honestly and perhaps intelligently.""----------------
-------carl it is not possible to answer intelligently to one who cannot comprehend -your regular stance always reminds me of a disturbed person banging his head repeatedly on a brick wall.btw I do not mind the adjective silly being applied to me but do not call me nice ,that is a real insult coming from you !

Nannette

I see the regular anti-Israel/anti-semites who usually make comments on Ha'aretz have migrated over to Melanie's blog.

Obviously they've not got a proper job, or alternatively, they're paid for their vile propaganda!

Carl

phil, that we be a no then. Nice people you support.

Dixon, your previous posts demonstrate that you are not worthy of engaging with.

Original Tony

Wonderer and blue & white...Jordan was not formed in 1948 it was formed in 1946, with Churchill playing a large part in granting this state for Heshemite help in ww2.

I stated that the west bank was offered to the 'arabs' in 1967, I did not say the palestinians and I did not mention two states either.

Furthernmore, the 3 Nos were issued 1st September 1967.

Jordan gave up all interest in the west bank in a treaty with Israel signed 1988.

I agree that the people labelled as palestinians should 'go home' to Jordan/ Syria after being compensated. If it worked moving millions of people around in Pakistan and India why not in Judea/Samaria?

George Laird

Dear Miss Linda Smith

"what most sensible people would like to forbid is the Talebanisation of Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon by Hamas and Hizbollah".

Then surely the way forward is to rebuild Gaza and help to put back civil government.

No civil government has allowed effectively mob rule to emerge.

When are the Israelis going to realise that stupidity doesn't equal intelligence?

Being part of the solution gives the Israelis a voice in the process.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

phil

Carl
April 6th, 2009 12:28pm

phil, that we be a no then. Nice people you support.

Dixon, your previous posts demonstrate that you are not worthy of engaging with.-----------carl all the headbanging seems to have had negative effects on your ability to write other than in tongues ,and I am sure Dixon has no wish to be engaged to you-btw ,where did you find support for Lieberman in what I wrote -oh never mind you do not read to well either ,but do not stop at least you give us a laugh.

Carl

Laura, I guess it must be because I don't believe in talking rocks and trees.

Derek BLADES

In one of his many tedious postings Adam B told Carl (a voice of reason on this bigot infested blogsite) "To my knowledge, Mr Lieberman has not advocated mass murder, unlike Hamas."

Israeli politicians do not advocate mass murder. Intead they commit it. The Gaza and Lebanon casualties run into the thousands with the large majority being children and other non-combatants.

Linda Smith

George Laird: you posted " surely the way forward is to rebuild Gaza and help to put back civil government"

How do you propose "to put back civil government"?

Adam B.

Carl has gone strangely silent about his support for the racist Hamas organization.

phil

"
Derek BLADES
April 6th, 2009 9:30pm

In one of his many tedious postings Adam B told Carl (a voice of reason on this bigot infested blogsite)" ---------I don,t often stoop to mentioning your name sailor ,but I must compliment you on the best joke on this site for a long time-I bet Adam B cannot see for the tears of laughter -do you really think anyone can take you seriously after this ?.not that they did before of course .please stop the jokes now I cannot catch my breath either .

Linda Smith

In one of his tedious Israel bashing postings, Derek Blades wrote "Israeli politicians do not advocate murder. Intead they commit it."

Judeophobic genocidal Hamas and Hezbollah declared war against the Jews and Israel. If Hamas and Hezbollah prevail, they and their allies will be murdering millions of Jews, including "children and other non-combatants".

It is irrational to expect that a Sovereign State, Israel, should sacrifice its own "children and other non-combatants" to save the lives of the "children and other non-combatants" of its genocidal enemies' populations.

Carl

Linda Smith - have a nice cup of tea and calm down dear.

Carl

Adam B is obsessed with talking trees. I think it must be something to do with Harry Potter.

Adam B.

Derek Blades, (who promised he was leaving this blog but can't help himself) did the UK commit mass murder in WWII? I'd really like to know your answer. Particularly from someone who worked for the Communist dictatorship of China, and doesn't seem bothered that this government executes more people than the rest of the world combined every year - that's when the authorities he took a pay cheque from aren't mowing down thousands of unarmed pro-democracy protesters in Tianenmen Square.

Hypocrite!

Adam B.

Carl, when one refers to a woman as "dear", one is being misogynistic. Not that Linda needs me to defend her, (she puts your obsessive Israel hating in the bin every time)but such smug condescension is disgusting.

And why are you silent about your support for Hamas now? Do you think it may make you look bad?

You do anything but address the issue. Now you're going on about Harry Potter. What are you on?

Linda Smith

Interesting that Carl contributes to the debate by impersonating Michael Winner. Has Carl nothing legitimate to say on the subject under discussion?

groovy times

George and Carl, the voices of humanitarian concern, who just happen to be obsessed with Israel and the Jews. Their arrogance, belligerence, and contempt for the legitimate concerns that Jews voice regarding those who wish to destroy them, is a reflection of their own bigotry, and the spiteful delight they take in bating those who love and support Jewish sovereignty. Their criticisms are predictable, their stuborn silences when asked to clarify a position that dosn't suite them transparent, their eagerness to be the first to respond to a blog they despise, er.. a little embarrassing boys. But the interesting aspect is the psychology of the contemporary anti-semite who is in complete denial of their own hatred, and may help to explain why they do not register on their own morally sensitive barometers - the ideological, genocidal anti-semitism that is the corner-stone of Hamas, Hizbollah, and the Iranian regime.

Derek BLADES

Adam B asks me "did the UK commit mass murder in WWII?" I avoid answering questions from Adam B and his fellow Arab-haters on this blogsite because experience shows that they are looking for a fight not for answers. But Adam B is clearly obsessed with WWII so, just this once, I will put the poor fellow out of his misery.

Yes. The fire-bombings of Hamburg, Dresden and other major German cities during WW II would probably count as war-crimes by today's standards. They were deliberately aimed at civilian populations and the purely military targets were few or non-existent. They were in the nature of revenge attacks -much like Israel's assaults on Lebanon and Gaza - aimed at "teaching them a lesson" and to hell with who gets killed. Shortly after WW II there was a wave of revulsion in Britain at what had been done to the German civilian population and this is probably why "Bomber Harris" who led the strategic bombing wing of the RAF never received any of the civil awards or recognition that went to Britain’s army and navy leaders.

Almost certainly there were other actions by the Allies that would also count as war crimes today. The notion of war crimes that we now have was born in large part from contemplation of the terrible things that were done to ordinary human beings during the two world wars and from the determination by civil society – of which George Laird’s campaign group is an honourable member – to never again let such things happen. The world has moved on, Adam B. Using phosphorous bombs and dime shells in a heavily populated area and the deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure now counts as a war crime. Richard Goldstone has just been appointed as the war crimes investigator, with a mandate to look at what both sides did in Israel’s recent war on Gaza. Let’s wait for the outcome of his investigations.

George Laird

Dear Miss Smith

"How do you propose "to put back civil government"?

Peace talks for a start for a permanent ceasefire.

A Marshall style plan to rebuild.

Bringing in and allowing experts in various fields to assist the current government to function properly.

That includes both international and Israeli experts.

A return to the rule of law.

By wiping out the infrastructure of civil government the Israelis painted themselves into a corner.

The people of Gaza have nothing so rebuilding gives them hope and a future.

That puts direct pressure on Hamas to ensure that future continues.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Adam B.

Derek Blades, thank you very much - for proving my point.

Even though Britain deliberately targeted civilians on a mass scale, with the intention of destroying whole cities, this does not negate Britain's just cause in the war. One does not argue that Germany was the victim of Britain, or that Britain was the aggressor, having killed 10 times more German children than the Luftwaffe killed British children. In other words, we can debate Britain's methods, without questioning Britain's cause (let alone existence).

Israel does not deliberately target civilians, and if it did, the casualties on the Palestinian side would be multiplied many times over. Yet when you, or carl, make your points, it is simply to vilify Israel, not to question her methods. Indeed, you both go out of your way to delegitimise the whole concept of a Jewish state. Consequently, your mock "concerns" for civilians are nothing of the sort - rather, you actively seek ammunition to use against Israel, in order to further your agenda - which is that you hate Israel, come what may.

I notice that you remain studiously silent about your own past, taking blood money from a despicable regime which doesn't give a hoot about any kind of humn rights, thus further rubbishing and exposing the hollowness of your concerns for humanity. Still, I guess it's impossible to defend the indefensible.

Incidentally, I'm not in misery, as you seem to suggest, I'm extremely happy, especially following some fantastic personal news. So I'm not in need of you putting me out of misery, but thanks for offering.

Carl

Dear Adam B, I imagine him as a rather short sighted chap, always ready to take furious offence. I expect that he has the word "HYPOCRITE" on a shortcut key as he can scarcely manage a post without using it.

Adam B.

carl, to be called "short-sighted" by someone who can't see beyond his obsessive and irrational Jew hatred is a real laugh.

wonderer

Further to the points made by Adam B, an estimated 75000 French civilians were killed by allied military action in World War 2, including some 20000 in the Battle of Caen alone. They had no quarrel with the British and Americans and were not specifically targeted but their deaths were unavoidable if legitimate military objectives were to be achieved.

hadrian

Labhras-
It may have escaped your notice that the Jews died at the hands of 'civilised' Nazi Germans- some six million of them, in the most savage manner. Down the years they've also attracted many societies' envy and hatred because of their ability to succeed even in the most adverse conditions. One could hardly blame some of them for resenting bloody gentiles! However the amazing thing is most of them don't and just get on with it! If the Jews were as barbaric as the self pitying German Nazis who were their enemies they'd have destroyed the Palestinians years ago. Their restraint in the face of such hostility may not be perfect on occasion( none of us ever is!) but on the whole it is commendable.

Linda Smith

George Laird: Israel cannot have peace talks with Hamas as Hamas does not recognise Israel.

Next suggestion?

PS why don't you trot over to Gaza and talk to Hamas about their genocidal charter which has as it objectives the destruction of Israel and murder of world Jewry.

Carl

Adam B, your obsessive hatred of Arabs and apparently me speaks volumes about your mindset.

Adam B.

Carl, point to one sentence I have written which demonstrates a hatred of Arabs. This is a direct challenge.

One sentence.

You will find none, but then accuracy isn't your forte.

Truly pathetic.

phil

Carl you must not confuse yourself with an Arab .that is an honourable state ,and one that has produced many fine people ,very unlike you .One day the Jews and Arabs will find accommodation from the morass that has engulfed them,but neither will ever want to be compared to someone like you. I join with Adam B in his disgust for you ,that too is an honourable state .

Adam B.

wonderer, exactly so. Not that Derek Blades will understand.

Carl

Adam B - you condone Israeli brutality without question, demonstrating that you do not believe a Palestinian life has any value. That is my answer. Your slavish admiration of repeated Israeli brutality against Palestinians is truly pathetic.

Carl

phil, in the short time that I have been posting here, you have descended from being semi coherent. People like you disgust me, I am well aware of your hateful views on Arabs.

Adam B.

Typical Carl, unable to find any evidence to back up your claim that I am anti-Arab, you assert that the mere fact that one supports Israel is enough to condemn one as being anti-Arab. So I suppose all the Bedouin Arabs who volunteer to serve in the IDF are anti-Arab. Do you honestly believe you have presented a coherent or rational case to back your allegation?

Your reasoning is also very illuminating. Israel haters always complain that they get accused of being anti-Semitic, but you Carl have no qualms about flinging the label anti-Arab around even without any evidence.

This is made all the more absurd by the fact that you support organizations which openly declare their racism, such as Hamas and Hizbollah. Still, I don't expect you to see the irony.

Carl

Adam B - thank you for proving my point. Now run along dear boy. People like you need to take time out to examine why they hate certain races.

I guess you are still smarting at the IDF humiliation by Hezbollah, causing them to attack defenceless Gaza in retribution.

Derek BLADES

Adam B.
April 7th, 2009 5:51pm
If I correctly understand your contorted reasoning, war crimes are OK if they are committed during a just war. Sorry, old Chap. Times have moved on. War crimes are war crimes period. Richard Goldstone will certainly not be taken in by the nonsense you espouse. He will look at what the IDF and Hamas actually did. Did either side commit what is now - not 50 years ago - considered by the civilised world to be war crimes? You surely know what he will conclude.

Adam B.

Carl, your point being what?

Adam B.

Derek Blades, do you have difficulty in reading comprehension? I said nothing of the sort.

My point, which you have singularly failed to grasp, is that one can have a legitimate discussion about methods of conducting war. This is not the discussion we are having. Instead, you seek to delegitimise the entire concept of a Jewish state, and use your bogus allegations of war crimes as a means of furthering your goal of vilification and delegitimisation.

The hollowness of your mock "concern" for human rights is underlined by your rank hypocrisy, having been paid by a Chinese Communist dictatorship which carries out the most horrendous tortures, imprisons political prisoners and prisoners of conscience, brutally invaded and carries out an ongoing suppression of Tibet and its culture, mows down unarmed students who deigned to want the same rights you enjoy exercising here on this blog, and executes more people than the rest of the world combined.

It is what makes you, Derek, a hypocrite of the highest order. And no matter how many times you repeat your hateful lies about Israel, nothing will change that fact.

phil

QUOTE
Carl
April 8th, 2009 3:11pm

phil, in the short time that I have been posting here, you have descended from being semi coherent. People like you disgust me, I am well aware of your hateful views on Arabs.---------------

-Carl are you now resorting to flattery as well as your regular supply of lies and false accusations ?I thank you for the flattery, semi coherent is the nicest thing you have ever said and from an expert on the subject it is most gratifying.I hope you will find it within yourself to offer such an award to Adam B whom I am sure would be delighted to read a pearl of wisdom from the pen of the amazing carl jones -have a good pesach my son ,we always keep a place open for a stranger and you certainly fit that description .

phil

Adam B.
April 9th, 2009 12:17am

Derek Blades, do you have difficulty in reading comprehension?---------------Adam B do you really need an answer to that ?:)

Adam B.

carl, not enough to falsely accuse me of hating Arabs (if you knew my personal circumstances you would know how absurd such a claim is), you now accuse Phil of the same. Please provide one quote which backs your obnoxious slur - I'm still waiting for mine.

You, on the other hand, really do support racist organizations.

Carl

Adam B - phil made a vile post about Arabs, I can't be bothered to find it but if he can, he can link. You condone Israeli brutality against Palestinians and so obviously support Israeli racism against them. As to your personal circumstances, they are of absolutely no interest to me, you are not the kind of person I would care to know more about.

phil

carl is this the vile post ?
phil
April 8th, 2009 11:52am

Carl you must not confuse yourself with an Arab .that is an honourable state ,and one that has produced many fine people ,very unlike you .One day the Jews and Arabs will find accommodation from the morass that has engulfed them,but neither will ever want to be compared to someone like you. I join with Adam B in his disgust for you ,that too is an honourable state .
you continue to lie ,what for I do not know because nobody believes you .the only hater round here at the moment is you -oh sorry with apologies to the blade .

Adam B.

Carl, convenient that you can't find evidence. You couldn't find it against me either - because it doesn't exist.

Never mind.

Israel is the most pluralistic country in the Middle East - and the most tolerant. Of course you ignore the fact that the bedouin Arabs, as well as the Druse Muslims, volunteer for the IDF - I guess they are all racist agaoinst themselves Carl, as is the Arab judge on Israel's supreme court, as is the Arab Israeli diplomat in the US.

Such hysterical nonsense about racism is rich coming from someone who openly supports anti-semitic and racist groups like Hamas and Hizbollah, who enshrine their racism in their official documents and charters - they are proud of their racism.

I notice you never respond to this point - but I guess you can't defend the indefensible.

hadrian

Carl- Can I just intervene here in all the mud slinging and ask if you think ANY action Israel were to take against those who indisputably want her 'wiped off the face of the planet' and have it in their charter..do you think, I say, they have ANY right of self defence? Or do you too long for the day of further genocide against the Jews? Because I for one certainly don't subscribe to this simplistic idea that retaliation equates with 'brutality'. How many rocket attacks would you endure and refuse to strike back to neutralise the threat?

Carl

phil - I can see why you don't link to your vile post , far too ashamed. Adam B, you continue with your hysteric nonsense.

Hadrian - you disgrace the name of that Roman.

phil

carl can I quote oliver cromwell .s speech to the long parliament and used again by leo amery in1940 to neville chamberlain ,who btw was not a liar ,a racist or a hater---"“ ""You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go.""---we have just had your list of many that you hate is there any in fact who you like or love or respect or are you living in a darkened room alone festering with your hatred-I do not like you carl but believe me I am sorry for you ,perhaps you have been abused but there is no need to keep abusing everyone else ,it will not help -just try being pleasant ,offer a little respect and affection for others and maybe your life will be a happier one -The Jewish way of life teaches us charity ,prayer, contrition .love and respect for our neighbours and that one life saved is the most important thing(we will never agree on the tragedy of Gaza )-perhaps you should go and have a talk with a rabbi and find out what we are about -he may be able to deter you from this obsessive path of hatred that is consuming your life ,making a fool of you on a daily basis ,so in the spirit of Easter and Passover I hope your life may become a better one.---------

Adam B your arch enemy is the true face of Christianity,a man of compassion and care for others ,you would do well to emulate both him and Original Tony ,whose lives I am sure are enriched by those attributes .

Adam B.

Carl, your last post contained no substance whatsoever.

What is the point? You have nothing to say.

Adam B.

Incidentally Carl, do you know who Hadrian was - and the awful slaughters he ordered?

As you're uttterly ignorant about the Middle East, I guess it follows that you're ignorant about history as well.

Groovy Times

Carl, your bigotry, ignorance and spite are plain to everyone apart from yourself. You personify the current moral malaise in British society that hides it's hatred of Jews and Israel behind phoney self-serving and self-important slogans of anti-racism and anti-war. You project your own hatred onto others and using the classic tactic of the anti-semite brand the individual Jew (Adam B) and the collective Jew (Israel) as your moral antithesis, ie the carriers and disseminators of conflict and racism. Just as in the past the Jews were the moral antithesis of the Nazis - the carriers of Bolshevism and capitalism and the causes of war, so too, are they the moral antithesis to the modern anti-Semite - and that is why you have never condemned the blatant anti-Semitism of Hamas and Hizbollah. You won't or can't acknowledge it because you tacitly approve of it, and that is what makes your endless tirades on this site so cowardly and hypocritical.

To Adam B, keep up your calm, collected and indefatigable fight against the real enemies of truth and justice. I salute you.

Canopus

Is there no moderator hereabouts to put a stop to this boring and subjective exchange? For heaven's sake, give over, and get this thing back onto an objectively even keel if you must continue.

phil

Canopus of course there is a moderator -do you think we should sit quietly and be abused without a response at all .Most of us try hard to write objectively and truthfully whilst this man lies and abuses on a daily basis -perhaps that bores you, or is it our responses .If you can deter him please feel free or otherwise hold your peace and read something that will you will find more enjoyable .We will never again walk into destruction silently and I hope you would not expect us to -------------groovy T ,ADAM B is not Jewish he is a righteous gentile ,and rightly has our admiration .

Si, N

Hadrian, your defence of the Israeli massacre of 14,000 Palestinian people in Gaza is problematic. You ask: ‘[h]ow many rocket attacks would you endure and refuse to strike back to neutralise the threat?’ Your question presupposes that, in the face of a barrage of ‘rockets’, Israel, in the spirit of ‘charity, prayer, contrition, love and respect’ for its ‘neighbours’, meekly sat on its hands. It didn’t. Israel continued its policy of regular air strikes (targeted killings) in the occupied territories (yes that includes Gaza); and during the period of Palestinian rocket fire Israel fired in excess of 14,000 missiles into Gaza. For years now there’s been 100 Palestinian fatalities for each Israeli fatality. Any sane impartial person can see that in reality the Palestinians are the ones in danger of being 'wiped off the face of the planet'.

Your idea about ‘retaliation’ and “’brutality’” not equating is of course entirely ‘on message’ with those who promote “’brutality’”.

Equivocations abound, as do pointless denials by the likes of you. But the fact remains; those who would instruct combatants do advocate brutality ‘without mercy’. You’re familiar with the ‘charter’ (though you ignore or are unaware of Hamas’ acceptance of the Arab Peace Initiative), so recognising Palestinian “‘brutality’” is easy for you. But face it: defensive, offensive or retaliatory, “’brutality’” is “’brutality’”. When Rabbis such as Yitzhak Ginsburg, Shlomo Avinor, Chen Halamish, and Yavul Freund’, enjoin soldiers to ‘ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy’; make no mistake, they’re advocating “’brutality’” ‘without mercy’.

Your invocation of the Nazi Holocaust as a justification for Israeli atrocities mocks the dead. The implication that other posters might approve of such an event is disgraceful. The irony is that you probably support the fascists in the Knesset. I don’t see you complaining about that

Adam B.

Thanks Groovy Times - you said it better than I.

phil

HADRIAN it looks like the lovable si,n has finally blown a gasket and resorted to even more outlandish claims """Hadrian, your defence of the Israeli massacre of 14,000 Palestinian people in Gaza is problematic."" perhaps by next week he will increase to two million and will produce pictures of Gilad Shalit at a Hamas feast praising Hamas -this mans lies knows no bounds nor any shame for what he does -I have to admit that the laird does amuse me and carl gives me a chance to practice my comical side (I know it needs practice) but this si,n just fills me with disgust, all he does is deepens the divide and prolong the time it will take to bring salvation to the two hapless peoples . He is well named .

Si, N

typo: 1,400 Palestinians were massacred in Gaza, not 14,000.

Though with such overt fascists heading-up the knesset maybe it will be 14,000 next time.

Adam B.

Sin, it wasn't 1,400 either - unless you believe the Nazis of Hamas.

phil

Si, N if I hadnt caught you out -you would have left it there -its still a lie at your new figure as you well know ,and your choice of language is as usual bizarre -why you persist is beyond me as you know your views are held in contempt by the massive majority -march away with your ridiculous posters amid the great unwashed,most of whom will go on any other march in the hope of finding a bit on the side.

Carl

phil, you are hysterical! How many Jews did Adam B save from the Holocaust, or are you just cheapening another term?

The language here grows more outlandish by the day, scarcely a post can be made with "anti-semite", "Jew Hatred" and "Nazi" featuring. You Apologists have a poor argument anyway, made worse by your hysteria.

Carl

phil, you "caught" Si out with a comma, a punctuation that is clearly beyond your ability to use.

Si, N

What you mean is my ‘views’ are ‘held in contempt’ by a handful of partial people on a pro-Israel blog. In the greater reality of world opinion a ‘massive majority’ agree with my ‘views’.

‘[W]hy [I] persist’ is ‘beyond [you]’ because Palestinians are of no concern to you – all you care about is you and yours. The single-minded un-listening petulance you display is dangerous - no good will come from it. Very elderly are you – passed caring? Please remember, the generations in your wake are done a terrible disservice by your blind spite.

‘[Y]our choice of language’:

‘si,n has finally blown a gasket’;

‘produce pictures of Gilad Shalit at a Hamas feast praising Hamas’;

‘si,n just fills me with disgust’;

‘all he does is deepens the divide and prolong the time it will take to bring salvation to the two hapless peoples’;

‘if I hadnt caught you out…its still a lie at your new figure as you well know’;

‘march away with your ridiculous posters amid the great unwashed...in the hope of finding a bit on the side’.

Outrageous comments about posters’ mental health frequently pass the moderator on this blog so no surprise there – shame that you say such things though.

Sympathising with Gilad Shalit is easy (http://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions_details.asp?ActionID=561)– though your use of his plight is more cheap sloganeering. I remind you, in direct violation of Article 76 of the Fourth Geneva Convention; which prohibits the detention of prisoners in the territory of an occupying power, Israel currently holds in excess of 11,000 prisoners (‘bargaining chips’) - 548 in administrative detention – yes, allowable under International Law, but with restrictions – flagrantly abused:

‘Israel's use of administrative detention blatantly violates these restrictions. Over the years, Israel has held Palestinians in prolonged detention without trying them and without informing them of the suspicions against them. While detainees may appeal the detention, neither they nor their attorneys are allowed to see the evidence. Israel has therefore made a charade out of the entire system of procedural safeguards in both domestic and international law regarding the right to liberty and due process’. (B’Tselem)

This doesn’t concern you because, like I said, all you care about is you and yours – the noises you make about bringing ‘salvation to the two hapless people’ are wholly hollow.

This ‘disgust’ that ‘fills you’; you really ought to know by now, hatred is seriously frowned upon on this blog – you’ve been lucky so far, none of the usual hate-spotters seem to have noticed. Do try to curb that poisonous emotion though - it’s incompatible with the ‘salvation’ you say you seek.

Q. Rather than my attempt to assert a little balance/objectivity; isn’t Hadrian’s selective use of the record far more likely to ‘deepen…the divide’?

Correcting the ‘lie’:

‘an estimated 1,300 Palestinian were killed, as many as half of them thought to be civilians... [t]hirteen Israelis were killed’, (Telegraph, Dina Kraft, 20 Mar 2009);

‘an estimated 1,400 Palestinians dead, most of them believed to be civilians’, (Times online, James Hider, 24 March 2009);

‘Palestinians say more than half of the more than 1,300 Gazans who were killed were civilians, a figure disputed by Israel’, (Mail online, Matthew Kalman, 20 March 2009);

‘The Israeli Army says 1,166 people were killed - it said that about a quarter were noncombatants…[t]he Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza says that the number of dead is 1,417, of whom nearly two-thirds were civilians’, (New York Times, Isabel Kershner, 30 March 2009)…

…pick whichever figure you’re the most comfortable with – so widely cited are those variations on the Gaza fatalities only a person in acute denial will say you are lying.

About the ‘great unwashed’, and ‘finding a bit on the side’ - do we really need such squalid language on this blog?

phil

sin I do not have words to express the deep contempt that I feel for you and the lies you continue to tell here -that is truth and truth is allowed here .You are obviously deeply affected by those that tell you what they think of you ,so be it you deserve it.---------

.So far in all the history we have here you have never said a kind word about anything Israeli or Jewish nor have you ever suggested a solution for the regional problems ,my words reflect respect for the majority peaceful Muslim society and yours merely seek damage and insult -I believe you are demented ,sorry but that is your profile and I will not stand by and read your disgusting comments without putting them in the place they deserve -if you do not like them ,do not read them .You could just enjoy the ridiculous carl ,who humiliates himself on a regular basis -I do not understand it but there are many things I do not understand like hanging from a rope with an orange in one ,s mouth,perhaps carl likes safer pastimes like writing nonsense and worrying about commas -each to his own .

Labhras

Phil, I believe Si,N challenged you with some of what he believes are facts.

Do we take it that your reliance on personal insults is evidence that you cannot dispute his "Lies".

Shooting the messenger holds no sway in the court of world opinion.

You have accused him of lying.It is up to you to prove he is, or retract your accusation.

Carl

Labhras, phil frequently resorts to coarse personal insults, I guess because he can't present either facts or logical arguments.

phil

Labhras whatever sin thinks or says have no relevance for me nor does anyone else who mimics him ,and if you are one of his followers the same applies to you -I debate with those who want a way forward not those who make false accusations as a way of life .