Another fine anti-terror mess

Winston Smith

I have a feeling that there certainly was reason to arrest these men, however, as Melanie rightfully states, because of human rights, there was no grounds to continue. I find either two seriously bad situations here:

1. The Pakistanis were guilty, however some strings were pulled in Britain's ever increasing slide into Dhimmitude.
2. The Police are totally and utterly incompetent like their government and there not only needs to be a general election now, but also many heads in the police force need to roll.

However, what really worries me more than this farce, is that Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal is to address the House of Lords via video despite objections by the British government. It means that the man responsible for the continued attacks on Israel is to address our House of Lords, when Lord Ahmed made sure that Geert Wilders was refused entry into the country, who had never been involved with any attacks or religious hatred unlike Mashaal has and still is.
Why is Lord Ahmed not complaining about Mashaal's religious hatred and extremist views of Israel? It seems that our government has completely and utterly surrendered to Islam and worse still, is selling out its country in order to gain as many Muslim votes come next election by distancing itself from Israel and supporting Palestine. I wonder what Milliband thinks?

blue_&_white_avenger

The government's primary duty is to protect its citizens, both at home & abroad. The police are charged with that duty at home & discharge it much better than do the other agencies when Brits are attacked abroad.
There is a dictum in the Talmud that the welfare of the community takes precedence over the rights of the individual. As the IRA were known to say, they only had to be lucky once whereas the security forces had to be lucky all the time.
I think that our laws relating to Human Rights, expulsion of undesirables, the need for the prosecution to prove a 100% watertight case, the inadmissability of expelling to a country where, conceivably the suspected criminal might be mistreated and the right of the police to do their job without fear of retribution - all this needs to be re-worked in the light of the real threat which the enemies of the West and democracy pose.
A tragedy of 9/11 proportions only has to happen once here before there'll be an ugly backlash against the libertarians.

Nick

The ever-reliable Simon Jenkins hits the nail on the head as always:

"The British state, British tolerance and the British way of life are far more threatened by Lord West and his like than by any nutcase in a Pakistan madrasa. This abuse of the language of terror for political and commercial self-aggrandisement is disgraceful. It is precisely the cast of mind that Obama hoped to end. It strips the word security of all sense of proportion, and ends in the torture chambers of Guantánamo." Guardian, 22 April 2009.

It's a shame he doesn't write for the Spectator.

Trevor Padley

Winston Smith,you are absoloutely spot on,well said my friend.

steve

Melanie: If the police needed longer to make their case then why stop at 90 days? Why not give them unlimited time to find the evidence needed to charge terrorism suspects. That's the logic of the point you're making.

George

Winston Smith,

Good analysis but your last sentence needs refining. It would read better as "I wonder IF Milliband thinks?"

Herbert Thornton

British mainstraem politicians and Islamist extremism go hand in hand - the politicians because of obtuse lack of realism and Islamist extremism because it is entirely happy to take advantage of useful idiocy.

Combine that depressing fact with Britain's almost equally depressing loomimg economic collapse, and Britain's situation looks more and more like that of pre-Franco Spain.

Archie

We really have to nail this whole "human rights", out-of-touch judiciary, convictable evidence down tight! What, pray, does the so-called opposition have to say? Thought not!

Mark

I think Nick is correct: Simon Jenkins' article in Tuesday's Guardian is worth checking out as an injection of sanity. Here is one apt quote from him:
''Anyone who feels America or Britain is moving nearer to an Islamist caliphate because of a suicide bomber is a wimp who has no belief in the robustness of democracy.''

Austin Barry

In a sense, and notwithstanding the London and Glasgow bombings, we're in a 'phoney war' period with not yet quite enough public anger to force the politicians to abandon their fugitive surrender-monkey shibboleths of human rights and community cohesion. That will change with the next, inevitable, terrorist atrocity which I suspect will be something along the lines of the Mumbai attack. Perhaps the blood and shredded flesh of that event will force our weak masters to drop the white flag and adopt a more robust approach. But probably not. They are cowards.

elixelx

Ah! Yes! The Guardian...the one place to go to for truly cogent impartial criticism of the AMERICAN threat to Democracy, Liberty, and the British Way of Life and Death!
And the Dungeons of Guantanamo and the Dragons who do their foul business there!
And Simon Jenkins, who once accused Karl Rove on the Doha Debates of initiating a brutal Pogrom against Muslims in New York City, by scooping them up by the thousand without cause in the days immediatly following 9/11.
Shameless, both the man and his rag!
Now to the matter in hand...Who knew that Bob Quick would be carrying an exposed photographable list as he left the car? Who photographed it? Who photo-shopped and divulged it to the Media?
For the Guardian it would have been the work of the Mossad, surely?!
Nick and Mark above (were ever two names more appropriate for deluded fools!) haven't yet grasped that Islam's attack on Freedom and Democracy is being accomplished by attacking some of the branches of the tree with a scimitar, and then, when the defenders of the tree are busy staving that off, spreading poison on the roots.
Razzias, Mozarabes, Mudejares, Dhimmis (do look these up!)--these are not new words to Western ears. Here in Spain they were in daily use for 700 years before they were obliterated from the Peninsula, big battle after small battle after pitched battle after everyday battle for OVER 7 CENTURIES!
Those are the parameters of this WAR! In Spain too there were those who sought accomodation and common ground with the Islamist. They too were told "You will be assimilated; Resistance is futile"!
And now their spawn repeats the same monotonous threat to MY CHILDREN and YOURS!

Roy

Yes, it will take a really well planned attack with a gruesome end to waken up the sleep walker officials of Britain. All the human rights king-pins and civil liberty zealots need to mention is 'police state' and this seemingly stops any police action in its tracks or melts it like butter. What Britain needs is more positive police action and less notice taken of the apparatus of spinelessness.

Sue

Of course we need 90 days to unearth all the stuff potentially held on computers, but we also need the chain flushed on the police and the security services who can now only animate themselves when they have something PC to say. I understand the fault for this lies with the government but the culture has totally wrecked the police and secret services. Too many top brass need the boot.

I wouldn't put Jonathan Evans in charge of a crayon.

Carl

Personally, I blame Beau Geste. Too many young Muslims in this country are bored underachievers, living mundane lives in mundane towns. In the absence of mental stimulation, they fall easy prey to militants who offer them the jolly adventure of going out to Pakistan and joining the "Jihad" or supporting it in this country.

What we need is education and stimulation, backed up with the threat of a big stick.

We also need to deal with the sneering classes who describe a raid and arrests such as this as a Government smokescreen, deliberately ignoring the attacks and security successes that have taken place.

Michael

Why not take two simple steps?
1. Stop issuing student visas to Pakistanis TFN.
2. Require all Pakistanis in the UK on student visas to check in with their local police station with details of where they are living and where they are studying.

Then repeat the exercise with other dangerous ethnic groups - Bangladeshis, Somalis etc.

Linda Smith

Carl: I'm gobsmacked! Strange how you advocate that Britain should weald "a big stick" but castigate Israel for doing the same.

HYPOCRITE

Vision Aforethought

@Carl: You have hit the nail on the head with a very big hammer. In fact, your comment highlights an issue that explains a considerable amount of the hate and bullying that goes on from the school playground to inter 'group' war and terror. If I may use the Jews as an example: They are fairly enlightened, creative and fun loving on the whole. This means they don't have time to hate by default, preferring to get on with life, business, community and more. I believe this to be why a certain Martin Luther was so envious - and triggered so much later attrocities thanks to his vile writings. "How dare they appear so confident and sure of themselves!"

I have always believed that the Arab and Muslim's best friend is Israel. A successful industrious Israel will employ and/or motivate it's neighbors (just as occurs between Western nations) offering them an alternative to their dull plight. Alas, the hard liners dislike our freedoms, that I admit, can be embarassing and cringeworthy at times, so reign in their youth, forcing them into a life of mediocrity and fear.

From my travels around the world (in particular California and London), the ideal is a mix of all races and nationalities - an arrangement that installs trust in people. Of course, such a scenario makes it easier for those few who decide to commit acts of terror on their hosts with so much ease thanks to the fact they blend in. I suppose that's why they built the wall around Israel. But then the enemy will just use rockets. Oh, wait!

What is really needed is the following:

a) The West to tidy up it's act and be a good example (can we start with the banks and celeb culture?)
b) Create a lifestyle the Muslim youths will prefer over their current options such that they will rebel and choose a more enlightened path while retaining the much needed (in all cultures) family values

Am I being too wishful?

Carl

Dear Linda, this is about the UK, not Israel. The fact that you are incapable of understanding the difference is a demonstration of your irrational hatred of Muslims.

Linda Smith

Dear Carl: your post today at 12:58pm is yet another demonstration of your double standards and hypocrisy.

Bobby G

Hang about....

after lengthy periods of surveillance, that can only have involved the highest level of intelligence gathering, there was nothing to charge these men with.

Nothing at all. Not even an incitement to racial hatred, the spreading of inflammatory propaganda. Nada.

Looks like they may well have been guilty of being Muslim.

I wonder, Melanie, what your attitude would be if this had been a group of young extremist Jews and not Pakistanis?

Augustus

How many terrorist training camps are there in Pakistan's North West Frontier Province? Of the 10,000 Pakistani students
admitted to study in Britain each year, how many are legitimate students, and how many are bogus and abuse the system by becoming illegal immigrants? It's no good just pulling aside the odd young man at an airport, proper control of the system is needed, from verifiable visas for studying at verifiable colleges, to helping the Pakistanis dismantle the training camps which plant the seeds of the terrorist plots in the first place.

It's a crazy world when the population itself is so closely monitored with cameras and databases and treated as potentially malevolent non-compliant subjects, and yet the real threats are so conveniently ignored until it is too late.

GaryO

Leaving the nuances of what went wrong aside, this debacle has a serious side effect of increasing the sense of victimhood amongst the muslim population. This episode will be added to many such incidents and brought up again and again by those who think that muslims are being victimised in this country and treated harshly, unfairly and prejudicially.

This seriously damages the efforts of those who, like me, have broader concerns beyond the immediate terrorist threats – of increasing islamisation of the West.

In order now to calm the more vociferous voices from the muslim community, the government and (worryingly) the police, will relent to even more demands from this community thereby increasing their influence even further.

So rather than protect us from terrorism in the short term, this fiasco has pushed us further into the arms of those who, in the long term, want to bring about an islamic order here.

Having said that, it is dangerous to willy-nilly deport people who have a legitimate right to be here. If these students have done nothing wrong then they should not be deported in such fashion.

We must fight tooth and nail for these students to stay or ask of our inept government to provide proof for their deportation. How our government and police treat these guys will one day be a blue print of how they will treat all of us.

I want to live in a free and fair society – not under fascism, even if it is made in Britain.

Prof. Ethan

Carl, what is irrational about wanting to keep Pakistani "students" out of the country when their religion compells them to blow up "soft targets" on Easter? You think these men chose Easter as the moment to strike by, um, accident? It was a planned attack on Christianity. And THAT came out of a certain kind of Islam. It is a kind that is growing like a cancer in Britain--do you deny it? You don't, because in fact the program you suggrested--backed, yes, by a big stick--is based on the fact that it IS growing.

In terms of Israel, you need to understand that the threat which Britain faces is coming from the same source as the threat Israel faces. Except in the latter case, it is far more well armed, and far more practiced in the techniques of suicide-bombing of "soft targets"--say, old people at a seder. The monster who did that--like the monster who bashed in the skull of a four-year old girl--are celebrated as national heroes by Palestinian Muslims.

That's the issue. Now it is coming closer and closer to Britain. These sorts of people exist, they are not fantasies of bigots, and there are more and more of them--as your own suggested program of reform indicates that you know.

logdon

"Winston Smith
April 22nd, 2009 8:48pm

Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal is to address the House of Lords via video despite objections by the British government."

Apparently the video link broke and it never happened! Either some sort of kharmic force in retaliation to the wanton destruction of the Bamiyan Bhuddas or maybe they used Police technicians.
As for the endless to and froing from Pakistan I feel that pretty soon our Gov will be forced to act. How many visa's issued to 'students' alone? Reading a cross section of reports this morning this one stands out. Pakistan is at the fork in the road. One way leads westwards with greater ties to trade, democracy, freedom of expression and gender equality. The other, a return to the Seventh century values of barbarism and mysoginy. Judging by the following I'm not betting on the former. Then what? Do we allow the free passage of ten of thousands into Britain, remembering that we are actually at war with the Taliban or will some sort of common sense prevail? There's also a good assessment on the STRATFOR site, too long to copy here but a great illumination as to how the recent arrests are viewed in the US.
https://www.stratfor.com/join/free?source=FreeWeekly

‘Next generation of dreaded terrorists will come from Pakistan’

* Report says fragile state institutions, weak leadership and inadequate resources limit ability of Islamabad to fight militancy

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: If Talibanisation of Pakistan continues at the current pace, the next generation of the world’s most dangerous terrorists will be born, indoctrinated, and trained in Pakistan, the Council on Foreign Relations, an American think tank, warned on Tuesday.

“Today, Al Qaeda’s top leadership is most likely based in Pakistan, along with the top Taliban leaders,” the report – titled From AfPak to PakAf: A Response to the New US Strategy for South Asia – said.

The report by Daniel Markey says that the ‘Talibanisation’ of Pakistan’s Pashtun belt is moving eastwards, creating new terrorist havens in once-tranquil places.

It adds that “Pakistan’s non-Pashtun extremist and sectarian groups, some of which were historically nurtured by the state as a means to project influence into India and Afghanistan, also have the potential to prove deeply destabilising.”

Groups like the banned Jaish-e-Muhammad and Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, according to the report, are well resourced and interconnected and some of these appear to retain influence in state institutions and enjoy public sympathy on account of social services.

It says over the past two years, the security environment in Afghanistan and Pakistan has taken a significant turn for the worse destabilising the Pashtun belt in southern and eastern Afghanistan as well as western Pakistan.

“At the same time, a range of other violent actors from Punjabi anti-Indian extremists to Central Asian warlords-operate in the non-Pashtun areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan,” according to the report, adding Pakistan and Afghanistan offer these groups an unusually hospitable environment, one that complicates and magnifies the danger.

The report by Daniel Markey also says that: “The geographic proximity of Pakistan’s nuclear programme to these sophisticated terrorists and the recent history of illicit transfers of material and know-how pose a unique threat.”

The report concludes that fragile state institutions, weak leadership, and inadequate resources limit the ability of Islamabad and Kabul to fight militancy in the near term or to foster moderation.

TrevorsDen

Is it to be seriously believed that NO evidence at all to charge these 12 people with ANYTHING has been found?

Were there any computers? Were there passwords or encrypted files? Did these suspects refuse to hand over passwords? If so is THIS not a charge, Obstruction, that could be used whilst there was a further search?
Indeed is it not possible in these circumstances to have a law where computers could be impounded indefinitely by court order?

In short this is not about 90 days. There is no need for 90 days 45 days or whatever. There already IS 28 days and this was not needed.

THIS is about police incompetence on a grand scale. To my eye 'no evidence' means 'no crime'. It means political ineptitude in managing the police. And worryingly it means whilst police swan around monitoring what are probably a group of numpties then maybe real terrorists and real criminals are getting away scot free.

Lets not forget the claims of plots in operation, plots foiled. If this is anything to go by - these claims are total moonshine.

phil

Carl
April 23rd, 2009 12:58pm

Dear Linda, this is about the UK, not Israel. The fact that you are incapable of understanding the difference is a demonstration of your irrational hatred of Muslims."""

carl I nearly fell off my chair when I saw your first post ,it was the first piece of sense I have ever seen from you !! but of course you spoiled it all by your ignorant message to Linda -it is of course you who has the irrational hatred -it really is 75 years too late for you

Stephen

Melanie,

I normally agree with most of what you write, however, in this case, I need to make an exception.

I have no way of knowing quite how chaotic or manipulated the events of the last few weeks have been. Having said that, I am quite open to the notion that it suits some people's agenda to have the 42 days detention period subject to further review upwards. Would I put it past this Home secretary and the Chief Constables to go about this in the manner that we have just witnessed? The answer is a resounding NO.

What is it about the government and the Police that requires them to set about making us so very frightened of anyone with a Muslim background? Why do we need to be cowed into accepting ID Cards, fingerprinting, logging of internal travel, etc.?

If any of the 12 arrested were in any way involved in terror attacks, how come the Police failed to use the 42 day detention period open to them? Why are they (11) being released only to be deported? Are we afraid of what they might have to say about their treatment (whether or not they are innocent)?

All in all, I am very worried about the role of our so called security forces. Not because they are so poor, but rather they are too good at trying to force us to accept yet another limit on our freedoms.

GaryO

@ Prof. Ethan
April 23rd, 2009 2:13pm

"Carl, what is irrational about wanting to keep Pakistani "students" out of the country when their religion compells them to blow up "soft targets" on Easter? You think these men chose Easter as the moment to strike by, um, accident? It was a planned attack on Christianity".

I presume you have some proof of that, Prof? In which case I urge you to hurriedly supply it to our so-called "intelligence" services, because the last I looked they are struggling to find any.

I concur with you though, on the increasing influence of islam on our way of life. But is it not possible to preserve our way of life AND remove this threat – instead of becoming a fascist state ourselves so that, oddly, we may remain free from this danger?

I don't know about you but kicking people out for no apparent reason gives me the nightmares.

Kevster

Never commented here before but I feel compelled now….

Trevor and all others pointing at police incompetence….

There is a huge gap between that which police suspect and that which can be proven in Court. The police frequently suspect many thing will happen, very strongly sometimes. This will be based on information collected and experience. Usually we can’t take action before the offence is committed.

When I see Wayne “the thug” heading into town on a Friday or Saturday night I strongly suspect that some poor sod will take a beating once Wayne is drunk. That is because I have dealt with him numerous times in the past and it is what he does. I know this but my “knowing” will, rightly, not stand up in Court. So what do I do? I keep an eye on him an arrest him for anything at my first opportunity. That will keep some poor sod’s teeth in their head.

The fact that none of these Pakistani “students” has not been charged means nothing. There must have been reasonable grounds to suspect an offence or they wouldn’t have got past the custody sergeant. Keywords used, coded e-mails received, Koranic quotes used to convey messages, human intelligence (spies) it goes on and on. In this case I would bet that built up a strong picture – there was a lot of reasonable suspicion (or else it would not have reached cabinet level) – that it was insufficient to be placed in front of a court or that no physical evidence was found does no mean that the suspects were not “bang at it”.

It just means that the level of risk - the danger of death to many citizens in the UK – became to great and the suspicion had to be acted upon to prevent an atrocity. Or would you prefer they were arrested after the event?

Dorothy Wilson

What we really need is for our borders to be properly controlled and for the government to get a grip on immigration.

And that includes immigration of a "temporary" nature such as those people allowed in as students. Why on earth do we allow people to come in to "study" at schools and colleges other than those recognised by the proper educational authories?

I'm sorry but you simply cannot have the kind of free society that we are used to without having proper control over who is coming into the country.

David Lindsay

No charges against any of them. Remember, you paid for this. And you will be called upon to forgo yet more of your liberty because of it. Apparently blameless, they will now be deported and their education ruined, all to save face.

But then, of British Muslims arrested as suspected terrorists, only twelve per cent have ever been charged with anything, and eighty per cent of those have been acquitted. That leaves about two per cent of arrests leading to a conviction, and most of those for nothing to do with terrorism: once the Police go rummaging through people's lives, then they can find all sorts of things.

Expect a lot more of this now that such matters are in the hands of John Yates, the master of high theatricality leading to absolutely no results.

Herbert Thornton

Simon Jenkins' assertion - "Anyone who feels America or Britain is moving nearer to an Islamist caliphate because of a suicide bomber is a wimp who has no belief in the robustness of democracy'' which Mark quotes with such approval is an argument so empty, that to assert it as if it were a complete answer to the Islamic militancy is quite dishonest. Of course a suicide bomber is not going to turn either country into an Islamic caliphate.

The terrifying fact which Mark and Simon Jenkins conveniently ignore - at least so far as Britain is concerned - is that Britain is indeed moving nearer to an Islamic caliphate - not because of suicide bombers, but because of continued Pakistani and other Muslim immigration and the difference between their birth rate and that of the indigenous British population.

Simon Jenkins' belief in the 'robustness of democracy' is very much mistaken too - democracy is in fact nothing like so inherently robust as Islam - as the example of Pakistan itself sadly demonstrates. Nor is it even very robust in Britain, as the present pitifully poor quality of British government and mainstream British politicians amply demonstrates.

Jenny

What is ‘Sir’ Simon Jenkins doing writing about Islam? Shouldn’t he be telling us all how his idea for a Millennium Dome was a success?

We all know suicide bombers won’t bring about a Caliphate in two shakes. They’re the bad cop in the ‘good’ cop/bad cop routine modern Islamists are so exploiting to perfection.

‘If you don’t allow Shariah Law and Shariah finance, there’ll be more bombers, you see. That’s the way, gently does it, let the noose go on slowly, a little legal privilege here, a little financial law there [with money going to Islamic ‘charities’ that, guess what, have been known to fund terror] and that’s the way the Caliphate creeps in the back door.’

Sir Simon knows this.

Why does he pretend otherwise?

stanley Jerusalem

Bobby G
April 23rd, 2009 1:25pm
"I wonder, Melanie, what your attitude would be if this had been a group of young extremist Jews and not Pakistanis?"
Well we Jews have been here since 1656 and we haven't done it yet and it looks as though you may have to wait a long time before we do so meanwhile back at the ranch.....

Lucy

‘Too many young Muslims in this country are bored underachievers, living mundane lives in mundane towns. In the absence of mental stimulation, they fall easy prey to militants.’

That’s right, Carl!

Pity Osama Bin Laden living the life of an international playboy. Couldn’t you weep for him?

That poor 7/7 bomber who mundanely had £125,000 in cash in his flat. Let us weep for him.

Let us weep, too, for the non-Muslims who died at the Gates of Vienna. Confronted with a murderous Muslim mob, they missed how ‘bored’ these Muslims were and instead, like the Muslim army, took the Prophet Mohammed at his word and thought the Muslim army wanted them and the rest of the world subjugated to Islam so that the word could achieve its full meaning and we would all submit.

If only they’d had feted Islamic scholar Carl there to tell them that the hordes of murderous Muslims trying to kill them were ‘deprived‘.

Surely it’s only a matter of time before someone pays for you to write a blog, Carl?

Winston Smith

Trevor Padley and George, thank you.

Winston Smith

Herbert Thornton,

Re your post : April 23rd, 2009 5:37am

Ironic as well, that as Britain's economy goes down the plughole, in comes Saudi with their billions of Sharia Compliant finance. And people continue to think that the UK is not on its way to becoming an Islamic State? Our foundations of Christianity and Judaism are being removed with the same skill and precision that the Saudis are reclaiming land from the sea and building a Utopia for themselves. Isn't it unbelievable how centuries of human enlightenment, that created the West has all been bought in favour of a totalitarian ideology?

Dave

Stanley: Well Jews have attacked British forces in the past haven't they?

Frank P

It was a badly organised fishing expedition. No fish! But the putrid smell of political red herrings hangs like a miasma over the whole affair together with the unmistakeable smell of incipient death - of a fetid and moribund government. May its members and its ethos burn (slowly) in hell.

stanley Jerusalem

Dave
April 24th, 2009 1:12am

"Stanley: Well Jews have attacked British forces in the past haven't they?"

Yes; so have Scots Irish Welsh and even Cornish. If you are referring to the hateful, two-faced mandate, driven by such luminaries as Eden and Bevin, then you are quite right, but not in the Jews adopted country of Great Britain. Never.We get on with life, not death. The Mandate troops tried to smother us, shrink us, terrorise us and could I say it, dhimmify us for their oil-rich Arab friends.But again, Dave, not in England,never. On the other hand, perhaps you might care to compare and contrast the contribution of Anglo-Jewry to the welfare and advancement of British life over the last 200 or so years compared with the vermin who take our welfare benefits, live in our streets and try to blow us up on our buses, trains and planes and in our airports and stations. Go on, it's your turn to clarify, Sunshine.
Their present generation, their minds poisoned by power-mad clerics,are hell-bent on destroying the fabric of our civilisation, providing the disaffected,under-educated and weak-minded with a violent and praisworthy [in their terms] goal.Gullible idiots like the 7/7 bombers, pathetics like Richard Reid and his shoe bomb, brain-washed like the Glasgow Airport doctors, though the brains behind that one managed to get off scot free [sorry Scotland!]What a gift they are to our society and the pillars of PC stand shoulder to shoulder to prevent the authorities from sending them back to where they would be terrified to say boo to a goose.And their defence when threatened with deportation is that they fear for their lives in their native countries. What a surprise!
72 virgins indeed. Who bloodywell checks them then?

Bhaskar

Am I missing something here? Has anyone mentioned the presumption of innocence? Not a shred of evidence has been presented against any of these people. For all we know, they may all have been genuine students who were looking forward to a Western higher education which is still valued highly in their home countries. Now their lives lay in ruin. On the other hand they may well have been up to no good. But we simply do not know and in the absence of evidence it is unethical and immoral to presume guilt. The presumption of innocence remains the cornerstone of all democracies. This is not just a question of West versus the rest since many non Western countries (Japan, India, South Korea, Israel, South Africa and most South American countries among others) remain democracies as well.
During the seventies and eighties, at the height of the IRA insurgency people of Irish extration were often treated with suspicion and in some cases the presumption of innocence was thrown down the drain and we all know what happened then- some of the worst miscarraiges of justice in British legal history which brought shame on this country. It is wrong to stigmatise an entire community (in this case muslims of Pakistani origin) whatever the legitimate security concerns. The irony should not be lost to anyone since this is mainly a pro Israel blog. Therefore it is legitimate to remind everyone- which community was collectively stigmatised around sevety years ago in many European countries?

stanley Jerusalem

Bhaskar
April 24th, 2009 9:11am
"The presumption of innocence remains the cornerstone of all democracies."
Absolutely, if your aren't at war with the bastards, and we are.Sadly, my friend, war shifts the goalposts. They try to as well,but it's our pitch and our ball.If they are shipped out, it may be unfortunate for them but nobody got hurt this time. That's the price we pay in wartime. If you want to be PC go and carry stretchers. Unfortunately you'll have plenty of work. Ask the New York police, ambulance and fire Departments if you don't believe me.

stanley Jerusalem

Bhaskar
April 24th, 2009 9:11am
"It is wrong to stigmatise an entire community (in this case muslims of Pakistani origin) whatever the legitimate security concerns. The irony should not be lost to anyone since this is mainly a pro Israel blog. Therefore it is legitimate to remind everyone- which community was collectively stigmatised around seventy years ago in many European countries?"
Are you a loony? The UK is not trying to exterminate the Pakistanis and people of Pakistani descent.There is absolutely no equivalent whatever here. Just sad victims of a perceived threat on the one hand and vicious and merciless killers in our midst on the other. The Jews of 1933 Europe constituted no threat to anyone at any time. Your analogy is specious and possibly even seditious. At best it is supremely naieve.

Geoff M

Whatever the facts of this case it is plain that our Human Rights, investigative and judicial systems are singularly not up to countering Islamic Terrorism.

The Islamists must be laughing like drains as they watch the knots we tie ourselves up in so as "not to offend", protect terrorsts Human Rights and avoid deporting people who are a threat to our nation.

Liberals behaviour across the board is proof positive that they suffer some kind of psychological malfunction - perhaps due to too much Marxist theory and pot smoking at Uni.

stanley Jerusalem

Geoff M
April 24th, 2009 10:21am
A group of psychiatrists having a quick drag outside the building in which their symposium is taking place witness a violent mugging. They stand looking down at the victim, who lies unconscious and bleeding on the ground and say " You know, the guy that did this needs help."
Another one.
Burglar cuts femoral artery and bleeds to death while while attempting to escape through a window he broke to effect entry. Householder charged with manslaughter.
Human Rights a la 2009?
Give me a break!

Bobby G

Yeah Stanley.

You get on with life. When it suits you like.

Not so much respect for adopted 'Great Britain' after all eh?

Good luck.

Winston Smith

Dave(April 24th, 2009 1:12am),

Well Jews have attacked British forces in the past haven't they?

This seems to be the precedent every time one mentions Islam. It's the same as when people mention the total barbarity of Sharia Law and there's always one that comes and mentions "What about Jewish Beth Din Courts?"

To equate the terrorism of Islam to that of Judaism is like comparing Myra Hindley to Mother Theresa. It simply boils down the continued pro Palestine and Anti Israeli propaganda that the Western Media likes to throw around as though it were going out of fashion. Our society is going into turmoil because we are abandoning our heritage and destroying our Christian/Jewish foundations, while adopting an Islamic one.
Don't get me wrong, there has been turmoil with Jews in the past, but then you also forget to see that Islam has been at war with Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and every other religion/non religion since its birth in the 7th Century. The other major difference here is that attacks in the past on the British in the early 20th Century were because of land and not because of religion. This 'war' with Islam, is all about religion unfortunately.

Carl

Lucy, forgive me my lack of historic knowledge. I had, until you told me, no idea that the forces besieging Vienna were unemployed youth of Pakistani descent rather than an Ottoman Army. Thank you for enlightening me.

stanley Jerusalem

Bobby G
April 24th, 2009 12:32pm

"Yeah Stanley.
You get on with life. When it suits you like.
Not so much respect for adopted 'Great Britain' after all eh?
Good luck"

OK, now you explain to me Ernie Bevin's sending a shipload of Concentration Camp survivors back to Hamburg from Haifa in 1946. Otherwise I'm missing your point. Mine is 350 years of positive and peaceful contribution to society not to be sniffed at either. What did your woad-clad ancestors give us then, Toad-in-the-hole, Morris Dancing or perhaps rolling a cheese down a hillside?
My lot had a thriving democratic society 3000 years ago[IN PALESTINE] while yours were chasing one another across Salisbury Plain waving clubs and possibly even missing Southampton's next home fixture.
[Pity about Rupert Lowe innit?]
We just happened to get in the way of the Roman Empire -
our bad luck your good luck
[till the start of the 5th Century].

stanley Jerusalem

Carl, darling; you said something intelligent, albeit simultaneously qualifying as the lowest form of wit.
What next? An answer to your reaction to Hamas' Charter?

Peter

"Lucy, forgive me my lack of historic knowledge. I had, until you told me, no idea that the forces besieging Vienna were unemployed youth of Pakistani descent rather than an Ottoman Army. Thank you for enlightening me."

In that case, Carl, it's also going to be something of a shock to you to find out that the British jihadists, just like the Ottoman Army, shout "Allah Akbar" when they attack and that their purpose is the same as that of the Ottoman Army:

"Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate."

Since you're such an expert, Carl, you can enlighten us as to why British jihadists and the Ottoman Army share the same agenda.

Carl

Peter, I don't see how they can, seeing as how the Ottoman Empire ended some time ago. You are falling, like dear Lucy and Linda into straightforward Islamophobia.

As you seem to be incapable of understanding what this particular debate is about, it is concerned with anti terrorist operations in the UK in the 21st Century, not with Romans, Greeks, Turks or Jews.

stanley Jerusalem

Carl
April 24th, 2009 3:53pm
"As you seem to be incapable of understanding what this particular debate is about, it is concerned with anti terrorist operations in the UK in the 21st Century, not with Romans, Greeks, Turks or Jews."
Ah, I see, it's not about Israel at all! Gosh, silly us!

Bobby G

Grow up stanley.

In fact, go out, have a beer, do something. Make some friends. See what life's like on the outside rather than spending all your time playing the cyber warrior around here.

All the best.

phil

Bobby G grow your hair ,blot out the tattoos and learn some manners ,Stanley is a gentleman and an educated one at that -if you cant make your points without the ignorance it does rather negate your purpose .

Poppy Koch

Human Rights activists/Civil Liberty Groups/Shami Chakrabarti/etc.. etc..

The twits in charge are so busy getting mangled up in the manipulative agendas of the above that the indigenous population gets caught up in the wake of buffoons experimenting with pseudo-facism. Pathetic.

Drakken

WOW! I cannot believe the utter stupity of the folks on the left.. I call you folks suicidal. To give these savages an inch, they will take your arm.
When the savages engage in another 9/11 or 7/7 or mumbei massacre, you will see the folly in your ways, then you will see what I call the Serb option becoming a reality in Britain. Anyone up for a wager????

Jenny

Carl, you don't see what the Ottoman Army has to do with British jihadists?

Well, Carl, it would be that they're both jihadists, wouldn't it?

As well as your ignorance of religion and history, Carl, we can also add your trouble with handling a basic vocabulary. A phobia is an irrational fear.

There's nothing phobic about pointing out the consequences of what happens if someone carries out The Koran's instructions to "Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate."

If anyone has a phobia of anyone, it seems it might be the Prophet Mohammed has a murderous phobia of non-Muslims, only you have blind spot when it comes to that.

It is you, Carl, who fails to understand what this debate is about. It is about jihad, about the means to achieve that jihad (one instance given to you was the Ottoman Army and another was the more modern version of Islamic terror) and the ends of that jihad: cultural subjugation from everyone who is a non-Muslim to Islam. The means may indeed have been updated to terrorism but the ends remain the same they were since the Prophet Mohammed gave the world the account of what he says Allah told him.

The clue, Carl, is in the name of the religion. Islam means submission.

Herbert Thornton

Winston Smith - re your post of April 23rd, 2009 11:46pm - yes, the combination of factors actively undermining Britain is daunting.

(1) Most of the indigenous population now regard all forms of Christianity as outdated superstition and the Church of England has itself deteriorated to the point where its head Archbishop is no more than a politically correct buffoon;

(2) Saudi money is, as you say, being used with great skill (and the willing cooperation of an unscrupulous Prime Minister) to weave a web of indebtedness that ties Britain ever more tightly into the status of economic vassals of the Caliphate;

(3) Islamic immigration - even without the ingredient of extremist terrorism - is moving steadily, aided by high birth rates, towards dividing Britain into mutually hostile religious segments, and ultimately into an Islamic state;

(4) And then there is Pakistan. Pakistan is the source of much of Britain's Islamic immigration; it is probably the world's prime training ground for Islamic terrorism and extremism; it has a considerable stockpile of nuclear weapons, it has a security service that is sympathetic to Islamic extremism; and it has a weak government.

(5) And as if (4) were not bad enough, Pakistan appears to be tottering on the verge of a complete takeover by Islamic extremists led by the Taliban and Al Qaeda. If that happens - and all the signs indicate that it will happen, the consequences will be incalculable. India will have cause for the deepest alarm. So will Israel. And so will Britain, especially when we consider the many close links between the extremists in Pakistan and the many extremists of Pakistani origin in Britain.

(6) I have described Pakistan's government as 'weak'. But think on this - can a British government led by either George Brown or David Cameron, supported in either case by the present politically correct establishment, be much better? I have the gravest of doubts about it.

YA

This plot is so obviously a hoax, designed by jihadis to deceive police and play victim card. Now, if these "innocent students" aren't convicted and/or deported, that would mean that their activity is "lawful" in toto and they have carte blanche to continue. If they are convicted/deported, this will produce an "oppression of innocent Muslims" pretext, which is convenient for threatening by mass riots and other types of "resistance". One victimizer is already here on in this blog. This is win-win intimidation strategy and a proof that jihadis look for more confrontation with Government and non-Muslims in general.

Dixon

If I may add some seasoning to this historical digression ( my last two attempts at a posting never appeared ) I should like to point out that the Ottoman army was mostly composed of slaves seized as children during expeditions for that purpose into Christian parts of the Balkans and raised as vassals of the state.

In particular, the Spahsis and Janisseries, the most elite Turkish forces were comprised entirely of such converted Christians. In fact, the Ottoman empire was completely based in slavery, captured and Muslim raised converts running not only the military but all arms of the administration and regional government. That is the most extraordinary thing, they actually occupied positions of authority yet remained loyal to the system that had been their substitute family since childhood.

I don't know that this tells us anything about bomb-plots in the UK, but it says a great deal about the twisted history of slavery as it is customarily presented.

stanley Jerusalem

Dixon
April 26th, 2009 3:20am
Nice people to do business with, eh?
One must hope that their watchword was ever " Verbum meum pactum."
It certainly ain't now, is it?

Winston Smith

Herbert Thornton
April 25th, 2009 7:50pm,

Totally agree, well said!
To add to your points:

1. Thanks to the Frankfurt schools of Marxist Theorists, our society has been undermined thanks to Gramsci's hegemony. It is not just that our Indigenous population now regard all forms of Christianity as an outdated superstition, but they have been made to feel guilty for the Empire, being told only the negative, when the positive greatly outweighs it. They have also been successfully indoctrinated to hate Britain, Britishness, British culture and history. This place we live in may be called Britain, it still looks like Britain(well with exceptions) but our younger generations are most certainly not British, but a new people called 'multiculturalists'. The C of E is a joke and the Archbishop is more of an Imam than a man of the cloth. He should be removed forthwith and I'd like to see Nazir Ali take his place and so would many no doubt.

2. Sharia Finance is comes with many clauses and the British people just do not realise this. This is very worrying. You spoke of Pakistan being the main training ground for Islamic Extremists, but the Generals all come from Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is the brain of Islamisation. Sharia finance lays the foundation of the caliphate and just looking at how many of our institutions are being paid for by the Saudis is frightening. They control our Universities.

3. Demographics in the UK show that by 2050 the UK will be predominately Muslim. This will not just be from Muslims of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Somalia and other Muslim lands, but thanks to Islam now moving into the state education system, it will fill the vacuum created by the death of Christianity here. All one has to do is look at Shahid Walik's speech at a Labour conference, speaking of Islamisation within 40 years and a Muslim Prime minister. If that isn't a warning I don't know what is really.

4. Pakistan is going to be one of the main threats to the West. Put that together with Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and you have a nice collection of Countries, totally anti western and hell bent on Isamisation.

5. Pakistan will become an Islamic state, along with Bangladesh, Afghanistan and every other Islamic land around it. People think that we are seeing the rise of Extremism, all we are seeing is the true nature of Islam as put forth by their prophet Muhammad. Once the West realises that Islam has always been political, from its very birth, can we combat against it. The other worrying aspect of the break up of Pakistan is not just control of Nuclear weapons, but also the fact of refugees. There will of course be those who do not want a Political Islamisation, well, so they say and how many will flee here under the guise of asylum, when they are in fact fifth columnists, to promote and instigate it here?

6. "I have described Pakistan's government as 'weak'. But think on this - can a British government led by either George Brown or David Cameron, supported in either case by the present politically correct establishment, be much better?" Nope!
Tory is simply Blue Labour and they are saying nothing on Islamisation and uncontrolled immigration. Although I've been a Tory all my life, I've seen Conservative change into a Social Democratic party, no different to the Liberal Democrats. In fact, Dr David Owen of the SDP was more conservative than any in the Conservative party of today. The people in the UK are being duped by what they believe to be a party that wants to conserve the UK.

Shiva

Hello Bhaskar:
I can see from your name that u are of Indian origins and most likely Hindu. So I'm sure the threat that Hindus face today in India from the Jehadis, a threat that WILL wipe out an entire ancient civilization and a very REAL threat. I'm sure u may be aware of what's going on in India. See all those Hindus of Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Kashmir who have been decimated..And the same Jehadi virus has now entered the portals of the West. And u are talking about PC drivel of presumption of innocence till proven guilty. Amazing indeed. U are no different from those Dhimmi-Hindu politicians of India, the likes of Lalu Yadav who openly side with Jehadi elements in India hellbent on shredding Hindu culture and establishing a pan-South Asian Caliphate by force, all for the block votes that the Islamic community secures for them on their road to power.

War is Peace

PC drivel of presumption of innocence? Any educated person who doesn't believe in this tenet is the definition of a fascist.