Are these people serious?

Les.w

To the moderator:
could you please number posts consecutively as you put them up - this would make it easier for both posters and those trying to follow references back to previous posts. Some other blogs do this and it makes things much easier.
Thanks.

jose garcia

F*****G IDIOTS

Bill Corr

I'm an educated white male, no longer young, but adaptable and flexible.

If I can transform myself into an environmentally-aware black lesbian in a wheelchair, can I be fixed up with a safe Tory seat in the Home Counties?

Here's hoping!

Jono Lishman

Well said , Mrs P.

All we're missing now is the psychotic with a silly moustache.

Frank P

Just as I feared! It has been writ large in this magazine for some time.

Roger K

No this is worst than the Weimar Repbulic because it is not just the abdjication of classical liberal Conservatism but the complete surrender to socialism. Not surprising.
At the risk of promoting something I have been reading "Liberal Fascism" by Jonathan Goldberg a book which slipped under my radar last year. but would be one of the best books I have read in years. In it Golberg shows how fascism is a form of socialism and not the diagramatic opposite as we have been coerced to believe, i.e. push a conservative further to the right and he becomes a fascist. Rubbish.
No, totalitarism and state violence is innate to socialism. A liberal conservative who is confused and desparate for any power who is pushed too far becomes a socialist.

Terry

Well said. Politicians should be prepared to stand or fall on their stated beliefs and the policies that put those beliefs into practice. Instead, we get conservative pollies trying to sound like Labour voters in case anyone has the temerity to suggest that they represent conservatism.

I don't want to vote for a lable. Conservative and Labour are lables if they just tell the PC story of the day in order to assuage the punters.

The true test of political will is to stand up for one's beliefs even if there is a danger that they will be voted down.

Conversely, I reckon more people would vote for someone with a philosophy, a worldview and a policy framework, all clearly stated, than they would for the PC PR spin merchants who infest the political world today.

Tas

Is this the alternative? Where are all these people getting these ideas from? They must be all reading the same book or have gone to the same school.

Bhaskar

Even by Melanie's standard this post is astonishing. Further evidence of the promotion of women and ethnic minority conservatives? Really? She should refer to Alice Miles' brilliant piece in the times a few days ago. Miles referred to the picture of a triumphalist David Cameron at the end of his speech at the party conference in Cheltenham surrounded exclusively by white, public school educate men. The number female Tory MPs in the House of Commons currently stands at around 15. To those who insinuate that we mustn't lower standards to let in more women MPs, Miles points out devastatingly- are they saying there are no women in society more intelligent than Derek Conway? And anyway, what is wrong with promoting women and ethnic minorities provided this is done on merit? Boring white men do not have the divine right to rule. Even the American electorate have finally recognized this.
What is wrong with reaching out to gay rights groups? Is Melanie seriously suggesting that we should revert back to the bad old days of Clause 28 which stigmatized an entire section of our society? As a straight Tory (albeit an ethnic minority one) I feel ashamed that Clause 28 should ever have been passed by a Tory administration.
If the NHS is not to remain a top Tory spending priority, then what is the alternative?
Is Melanie seriously suggesting that we should copy the American model of health care where 50 million people have no health coverage?
Immersed in her vitriol, Melanie offers no viable alternative. One can almost feel her longing for a Britain which no longer exist. However, the blunt reality is this- the Tories cannot win unless they reach out to all sections of society.

David

Oddly enough, there was a particular group in Weimar that banged on about "normative" values.

Ronnie

Agreed, poncing around on the margins.

However, I would just say that perhaps they are keeping their serious ideas for the election, partly because they know that whatever substantial policies they publicise now will be stolen by this empty-headed government.

I hope that's it anyway.

Mark

Although I doubt Cameron will turn out to be nearly as decent as he is currently posing to be if he gets into power it comes as a great sense of relief and joy to know that Mel will continue to be impotently fuming away, ignored and unheeded on the sidelines.

stanley Jerusalem

Les.w
May 1st, 2009 1:25am
I'm sorry is that for the moderator alone or another suggestion for the Tory Come-back?

Dave

Hi Mel! Good to know as gay man you are keen to make sure the Tories keep me in my place! Would it help if I was Jewish?

Merlyn

Melanie, I think it is time we had some "real" women in power. How about you and Joanna Lumley. Wow!

Roy

What an opportunity they have, the mainsails are blown out and all they can think of doing is polish the brasses.

Andre

Cameron's conservatives are still not a party I can vote for. I feel divorced from the political system not only here but in Obama's America and across the channel. Oh for a Netanyahu-Lieberman pas de deux here.

Tommy

A party of principle now a party for donkeybums
The BNP will laugh all the way to the ballot box

Neil Turner

I think you've nailed it here Melanie.

WE are so desparate to get rid of New Labour, we haven;t read the small print on the Tory medicine bottle.

I like it that that they will give us a vote on Lisbon, but it seems we are in for more political correctness and Global Warming nonsense

I will certainly vote UKIP in June

Sam Armstrong

NOW was the time for the Tories to prove to us what they were made of - and we now have the proof, they are hollow and cynical.

Freedom was that party's mantra, and they have sold it for thirty pieces of silver.

Chico M

The really scary thing is that so many will be unable to vote for 'Tory-Lite' Cameron; they will instead vote UKIP or BNP.
This three way split of the vote will probably let Labour back in...

Robbit

Yes, Melanie. It is utterly hopeless. And not to mention the selling down the river of our national soveingnty to a mish-mash of endemicly corrupt, unaccountable and institutionally totalitarian supra-national quangos such as the EU, UN &c.

And this is all that our Tory strategists can come up with. Many of us are now utterly desperate.

And in desperation at our accelerating slide into this bizzare amalgam neo-Bolshevism and pie-in-the-sky utopian New-Age millinerianism, combined with the politics of resentment, grievance and "rights", I have long been on the verge of throwing in my lot with the Tories and even volunteering to work for them as as the only slim glimmer of hope. But I just cannot bring myself to do it. And what you summarise is exactly the reason why.

God knows what we are headed for.

GeoffM

If we wanted Labour we would vote for them. Which we plainly won't.

What are the Conservatives up to?

By attracting Labour voters and giving conservatives nowhere else to go they think they are being clever but its not about winning - it's about giving the electorate what they want.

The electorate want the government to repair the broken society:-

Close borders
Stop bogus asylum apps. and deport illegals
Crush Islamic Radicalism/terrorism
Defend the family
Tackle crime/drugs/trafficking
Preserve our hard won freedoms
Defend our country, people and way of life
Repair the economy and bring Govt spending/borrowing under control

Instead we have the Tories dancing around at Gay Pride and institutionalising discrimination against native Britons and men.

In a Democracy we should have a choice and representation.

It increasingly looks like the only Party that ticks most of the box's is the BNP !

Mainstreamm parties have abandoned the electorate.

Insanity is obviously contagious.

Thomas

Yes but all the serious issues will be decided in Brussels. This is all we have left.

Susan Hill

Melanie, not only could I not agree with you more - most ordinary people I know couldn`t agree with you more either. It just has not entered Cameron`s pretty noddle that people do not CARE about the promotion of the gay and green agendas . They may be happy to let gays just get on with their lives without making such a song and dance about it and they may not want to see total devastation of our rural landscape. They will do their bit to recycle, though they are not happy when they read about how much it costs and how most of it ends up in landfill in India. BUT, these are not their main or even their bottom-0f-the-list concerns. They want good education, which means teaching of knowledge not political correctness, they want safe streets, good clean efficient hospitals, out of hours GP care,fair taxes, an end to wasteful overseas aid and the scything of excessive government interference and bureaucracy. That is all. This green posturing by the rich and privileged who can afford to worry about putative Climate Change as a hobby, and now Cameron`s nonsensical decision to appear at a Gay Pride march, makes them very angry. If gays want to march, let them but what has it to do with Cameron - or you or me or anyone else ? Most people do not want discrimination but they also do not want the promotion of the rights of minorities.
I was going to vote Conservative. I will not now be doing so. It really is time someone in the Tory party told Cameron how he is viewed. I live in a very Conservative area and I have yet to meet anyone who finds him impressive.

Suffolbor

Spending on international development to be one of the Tories top concerns if elected ?
I thought that we were bankrupt .

I expect that Dave can always ask the Saudis for another sub in exchange for more influence for "The Magic Kingdom".

Sam Armstrong

Chico M says:

"This three way split of the vote will probably let Labour back in..."

This now looks like the best thing that could happen. One last disastrous term for NuLab, Cameron axed due to losing the election, and the country lurches to the right following BNP/UKIP protest votes. Tories subsequently find a tougher leader to begin the long-awaited repairs to our society.

I had a feeling that the shakeout would not begin this early. It just seemed too soon. It seems that the British are going to have to be brought to their knees again before voting for common sense. What a shame the Tories couldn't have elected a better leader who could have short-circuited this process. We are now going to be driven right back to '79.

David Cameron is a WIMP.

logdon

"Boring white men do not have the divine right to rule."

And thus Bhaskar reveals his very own prejudices. The pejorative, 'boring' is applied to 'white men' in an easy and by now common way with no thought of the reverse. Would he prefer the excitement of a black Robert Mugabe running things? Or the unpredictability of Pakistan style rule where the boredom is relieved by assasination of it's leaders and mass murder of it's citizens by suicide bombers? Come to think of it do we ever see those 'boring white men' in positions of power in Africa or Asia where it does seem that the 'divine right to rule' is the preserve of non whites? Britain is a majority white country and it's politician reflect that fact. That is what we call representative democracy. If I demanded that more whites be in power in Saudi Arabia I'd be laughed at out loud. And getting this straight, I have no problem with black politicians in Britain just as long as prejudicial anti British single issue partisanship is held at bay. However the signs are not good, judging by the lamentable performances of Lamy and Boeteng. As for the Muslims, Lord Ahmed's threat to storm Parliament with 10,000 angry young islamic males shows how easily the ways of the east can infiltrate our own societies. If Bhaskar wants to be subject to governance by non boring non white politicians the world's his oyster. Somehow I think he'll stick with the boring.

Sam Armstrong

Bhaskar:

"Boring white men do not have the divine right to rule"

You silly, silly person. Comments like these from ethnic minorities are the reason why vote after vote is slipping away to the BNP.

I might also contend that white men DO have the right to rule in Britain, since we are indigenous, just as Arab men have the right to rule Saudi Arabia.

London Calling

My Hamster Freddy said he could do a better job running the country, he has a point, he knows all about spin...:)

Fanny Herring

Another blast from the past. "I'm all right, Jack"!

Women are neither a minority nor "pseudo-victims" -- they are very real ones, and make up the majority of the poorest and most vulnerable. Justice for these people and others covered by the proposed legislation should be delayed because the lifestyles of the rest should not be discommoded?

"Us at the top will do best if you at the bottom continue to get trampled on" really only works if you philosophy has a very narrow and short-term definition of "best".

Our country will be in desperate need of all its brightest brains and hardest workers for some time to come. Refusing to open up better opportunities to those who differ from the standard model is not being prudent, it is being suicidal.

Mustapha Bunn

The Liebour Party under another name.
Time to vote outside the square everyone !

Lee laurie

Sam Armstrong at 11.09 you've said it in one.
As most of the British keep saying to our guests,'if you don't like it here close the door when you leave'.

Helen J

It is utterly, utterly staggering.

All the touchy feely posturing got Cam nowhere - nowhere - in the opinion polls.

Then we had the start of the financial crisis and Cam should have pulled away by miles, but no. Even that open goal was flunked.

It was only when the public realised that Brown's 'bailout' wasn't going to save everything that they turned to the Conservatives like people in a sinking ship might turn to a lifebuoy. They don't think the Conservatives will get them anywhere, they're just something to cling on to that's not the bad ship Labour.

This is not 1997. Touchy feely, whatever it was worth then, is worth nothing now.

Asks one lunatic poster: "what is wrong with promoting women and ethnic minorities provided this is done on merit?"

Nothing, but it plainly isn't being done on merit if it's being socially engineered, is it?

You're right, Melanie. We might as well be sat in the Kit Kat club in 1938.

Helen J

It is utterly, utterly staggering.

All the touchy feely posturing got Cam nowhere - nowhere - in the opinion polls.

Then we had the start of the financial crisis and Cam should have pulled away by miles, but no. Even that open goal was flunked.

It was only when the public realised that Brown's 'bailout' wasn't going to save everything that they turned to the Conservatives like people in a sinking ship might turn to a lifebuoy. They don't think the Conservatives will get them anywhere, they're just something to cling on to that's not the bad ship Labour.

This is not 1997. Touchy feely, whatever it was worth then, is worth nothing now.

Asks one lunatic poster: "what is wrong with promoting women and ethnic minorities provided this is done on merit?"

Nothing, but it plainly isn't being done on merit if it's being socially engineered, is it?

You're right, Melanie. We might as well be sat in the Kit Kat club in 1938.

Nicholas

With Europe at the helm Democratic politics in the UK is dead anyway. Left or right, Westminster is one big cabaret.

Sam Armstrong

It's worth noting that Baroness Thatcher, the West's first female leader of a nation, rejected feminism outright. She insisted that any woman of merit could and would rise to the top of her profession if she was strong enough to do it. She had plenty of criticisms of men, but did not allow a wedge to be driven between her and the opposite sex. There are and have been many, many successful women (including Melanie Philips) who oppose state feminism yet rise to the top of their profession. There are also many, many black, gay and disabled people who have done the same, through sheer self-belief and determination; things which taxpayer's money cannot buy.

stanley Jerusalem

Thomas
May 1st, 2009 10:38am
"Yes but all the serious issues will be decided in Brussels. This is all we have left."

You may well be correct but we have little or no control over what they legislate.So why do we need them? All we ever wanted was a free trade area and look what Mr Heath and all the others landed us with! Problem is, when is the right time to excuse ourselves and which of the wimps in Westminster has the bottle to do it? After all, what sanctions could they impose from which we don't already suffer by being a party to it?

Steve.W

Melanie – Cameron is making a pig's ear of things because that's all he's got to play with. As over 80% of our law now comes 'plug and play' from the EU fretting around the edges is the only thing possible. Serious stuff is done by 'follow my leader', so now we do as the Czech Republic wants, it's their turn to lead. All the EU Leaders snaking along in an obedient line together, don't like it? Then campaign against it.

stanley Jerusalem

Bhaskar
May 1st, 2009 6:46am
"Melanie offers no viable alternative. One can almost feel her longing for a Britain which no longer exist."
Melanie, though a philosopher, is primarily a reporter and as such, she reports.Should she give the impression that ''fings ain't wot they used to be' doesn't necessarily mean that they won't be improving, just that they could and ought to improve instead of deteriorating.
The position apparently taken by Cameron reveals his shallowness, his inability to grasp what is critical and his desire to curry favour with minorities which though deserving are not as deserving as the other 98% of us.
Moderator, please,what happened to the "Your comment" box at the foot of the posts?

stanley Jerusalem

Fanny Herring
May 1st, 2009 11:54am
"Women are neither a minority nor "pseudo-victims" -- they are very real ones, and make up the majority of the poorest and most vulnerable."
Chickens' teeth and rocking-horse dung!
What a load of rubbish!
Women who want to, do.
Women who don't, don't.
The rest is feminist posturing.
Were Maggie Thatcher and Golda Meir in drag till the last moment, perhaps?

stanley Jerusalem

Fanny Herring
May 1st, 2009 11:54am
I still can't believe what you wrote.
You aren't red, are you?

Ganpat Ram

You are getting boring, Melanie.

Like being stuck in the lift with Meldrew.

Anirban

there is nothing wrong if all these things are done in moderation. The problem with Mel is more with BNP than tories for obvious reasons. However Mel could go with Tories but can never go with the BNPs and currently has no choice . therefore it would be much better to change your outlook. Not everything you hate so ferociously is bad.

stanley Jerusalem

Ganpat Ram
May 1st, 2009 3:32pm
"You are getting boring, Melanie.Like being stuck in the lift with Meldrew."
Perhaps you wait for instruction.
GET OFF.

logdon

Every now and then I click across to Guido Fawkes.

It's not only for his illumination into the dank, dark and very fetid crevices of the Labour machine although it has to be said, what a coup? It's more the huge response and urbane witty banter which for the broad of mind can be hilarious. He sings off the same page as the Spectator as do his respondents but with a, shall we say, robustness and cheeky charm which sums up the difference. It's akin to Viz versus the Eye.

However one thing strikes, the lack of much female input. Same here with the obvious noble exceptions who more than contribute to the reasons why I come back.

So here we are, the free for all, any comers welcome of internet political interplay and what a dearth of women?

Continuing my little quest took me to Cif, thinking maybe the young educated left would throw up more equality but nope. The males vastly outnumber the females. No contest.

It's the same story across the board with very little differential in characteristics.

PJM has a few very feisty females who are quite brilliant, in fact one actually trounces the article she uses as the springboard, yet still the same old number thing crops up.

My belief is that the internet provides us with a valuable democratic insight into the demographics of this dichotomy. (Alliteration unintentional.)

It's not the hot house falseness of a preselected focus group competing on how liberal they all are, it's there in all it's undiluted and unfiltered naked honesty.

This then leads me to the question of all women shortlists and the madness of comrade Harman. She is tilting at the gender windmill like Quixote in drag but for what? If my findings are correct, horses and water spring to mind and I've yet to see a socially engineered mare.

So why Cameron is emulating this discredited stance beats me. How many original Blair Babes are there left out of that original crop?

When the motivational urge for equality relies purely on imposed numbers rather than the more natural test of merit and ambition we end up with Jacquie Smith running our Home Office or Margaret Beckett as Foreign Secretary. The classic square pegs of politics. And that’s not to mention the floating slurry of the quadrupal act that is Primarolo, Blears, Flint and Cooper.

We are supposed to be a meritocracy, fair, free and open to all. Quota’s in that milieu serve not one iota of purpose. Cameron needs to remember that or all we’ll get is a one term heir to Blair.

Then what?

Michael McGowan

Melanie, you must be doing something right. Ranged against you are (a) Bhaskar who apparently regards the sour and self-satisfied Alice Miles as "brilliant"; and (b) David, the smartarse-for-all-seasons, who with the tedious predictability of all left-leaning sneerers, drags the Nazis into the debate. You do end up thinking that if Hitler had never exised, the Guardian-reading classes would have had to invent him.

Gilbert

Onward Tory soldiers - to the middle ground!

Suffolkbor

Stanley:
If Fanny Herring is her real name then she is most definitely in a minority.

Perhaps she is the one that got away.

stanley Jerusalem

logdon
May 1st, 2009 4:04pm
"However one thing strikes, the lack of much female input."
How in Heaven's name can you tell? Do you have that good eyesight? Perhaps the intelligent ones have better things to do and the less intelligent ones can't think of any ripostes to your searing wit and percipience.

Carl

@ Stanley Jerusalem - Melanie a philosopher? I've heard it all now, still, it made me smile. What next, Rousseau a rabble rousing hack for a right wing rag?

stanley Jerusalem

Suffolkbor
Nah! I personally am acquainted with dozens of Fanny Herrings. At least that's what they tell me their names are.
Not like Tommy Beecham's; "Name?"
'Ball, Sir Thomas.'
"How very singular!"

Mark

I was mending a computer i found in a skip the other day and found its contents amusing.
The owner appeared to be a highly intelligent african woman with degrees in mathematics two languages and is/was a member of some interesting cambridge clubs charitable work etc.
All this according to her cv which she left on the machine by mistake i assume.
The temporary internet files contained the cookies for a dozen or so obviously pornagraphic sites presumably concerning mainly females, the sites were fairly obviously named except one called dad and boy...the mind boggles!
Boot and nuke soon saw to that kind of thing and the machine now sports a new os and is safe to connect to the network and internet.
However their is a side to camerons embrace of gay pride that could be interesting if he grasped the nettle and thought about gay iranians and their dismissal by our dear home secratary for immigration on the basis that if the iranian community chose to live very very quietly and discretely they would suffer no harm at all at the hands of the iranian regime.

EDDIE

The fact remains that the Conservatives have been out of power for so long that we have forgotten how awful they used to be. What we nee is melanie in the House of Commons to give them hell

stanley Jerusalem

Carl
May 1st, 2009 4:38pm
@ Stanley Jerusalem - "Melanie a philosopher? I've heard it all now, still, it made me smile."
Based on your record it's likely to be a rictus.

Winston Smith

When will people understand that the Conservatives are only so in name. They are Blue Labour. They haven't got a clue what's going on and from the proposals in the Article have continued to show why I won't be voting for them as yet again, they have forgotten totally what they're supposed to be doing as politicians and more importantly public servants.

Cameron, hasn't got the skill to control a football, let alone a country!

Helen J

Is Carl under the tutelage of George Bighead and his loonybin one-man band human wrongs campaign?

Winston Smith

Bhaskar,

You give people the job that they are capable of doing and doing well. It is nothing more than positive discrimination to give people of ethnic minorities and of a sex class. I find that disgusting. Worse still, while the minorities(you included) harp on about equality, when are you going to understand that as the minority you are certainly not equal. Worse still, as a member of the minority, you have to prove that you are the best person to do the job being up against the majority, who will outnumber you far more to get the job. If you truly believe that you there should be more ethnics and women in power, just because they are ethnics and women shows your blatant prejudice for the Indigenous majority. More so, would an ethnic in power want to run Britain for Britain or for his country he/she previously came from?

Regarding women in power Bhaskar, tell me, has the UK not been utterly destroyed thanks to the incompetence of Jacqui Smith, Harriet Harman, Ruth Kelly, Hazel Blears and others from the Blair's Babes? There are women in power and they're showing they're destroying the UK, with their radical feminist and anti British beliefs.

Why do we need to reach out to Gay Rights groups? Do they not just want to be part of society, or do they continually want to be placed on a pedestal as 'special' within society? Do you really truthfully think that the latest "Gay protection" Bills to be passed in parliament have brought equality? Do you really think that a homophobic murder should be classified as more severe than a heterosexual one? Do you think that because people are Gay they should get preferences to jobs and accommodation over the majority Heterosexual population? Do you really not think that you are being somewhat prejudice?

Regarding the NHS, it could easily be solved, the crisis that is. All one needs to do is halt immigration immediately and remove illegals forthwith. That way you take the strain of the NHS. By removing illegals and those who should not be here, not only do you solve the burden on society/NHS, but you also free up jobs and job competition, meaning unemployed people back at work, thereby paying tax and keeping the services fully financed.

Why on earth should we be bending over to the ethnic minorities? Get with the programme, start integrating so you are no longer a minority and start seeing from the majority's eyes, just how futile your proposals really, truly are. You are in Britain and it does happen to be a White country. It means that nearly 90% of the Indigenous population is White. Am I making it crystal to you? Tell me, what happened in South Africa, when the Nationalist White Party, were creating apartheid? Do you want the same here? Should we all be making sure that the minorities are all working just because of their colour, because it's fair(in your eyes)?

People in the UK should be attaining jobs because of their skills, not because of their sex, race or sexual preference. If you ever decide to break that ideal, then it proves that you are unfortunately a very prejudice person and from your posts of late, it seems as though you are somewhat a racist Bhaskar, I'm sad to say.

logdon

stanley Jerusalem
May 1st, 2009 4:38pm

Stanley, If you care to visit the sites yourself you'll see the names. Not many men called coolchick or on this site, Verity. Or, for that matter, women with the Stanley moniker, unless you've been fooling us all. As for better things to do, you confirm Melanie’s stance perfectly. Why on earth try to force them into politics if they’d rather be doing something else? Maybe that is the real problem with our turgid bunch. I'll ignore your cheap shot third point which really is below you.

logdon

Actually, Stanley you answer your own point. And confirm mine. We're on the same page. Different way of expression.

stanley Jerusalem
May 1st, 2009 2:43pm

Women who want to, do.
Women who don't, don't.
The rest is feminist posturing.

simone bacchini

It is beyond doubt that the tories are desperate to regain power, and - thank God - it it likely they will succeed in ousting this arrogant, incompetent Government. The desire to widen their appeal is understandable, hence the various promises not all of which - we can be certain - will be kept. So, no "blue socialism" is to be feared, I believe.
However, what's wrong with wanting to promote a society in which all sectors are represented, provided merit remains a determining factor?
As a gay man (and although I can only speak for myself with certainty), I can guarantee that what I want is just equality and respect and not the end of the world as we know it.
I have no interest in playing the victim role, but having found myself at the receiving end of prejudice and intolerance I very much welcome a change of attitude (which I think has happened already).
I would not vote for someone just because he or she is gay, but what's wrong in encouraging gay men's and women's active participation in our public life? The same holds true for other minorities.
As for the NHS, it is perfectible but certainly not perfect. Let's improve it but I'm proud to live in a country that lookx after its members.
Furthermore, is it not possible to care for our environment and to advocate a better use of natural resources without becoming an eco-fundamentalist who opposes progress and modernity? I'm convinced it is and I hope that Cameron's Conservatives will follow this route (althiugh some of the signs, I admit it, are not encouraging).

I do admire much of what Melanie writes and share many of her concerns. I only wish - however - that she wouldn't so often end up caricaturing opposing views and positions for THAT is truly undemocratic and - ultimately - unhelpful.

Graeme Thompson

Melanie, clearly a vote Conservative this election will be a vote for nothing. Time to form a new political party that will hopefully jolt the Tories back into being 'Real Conservatives' fighting 'Real Labour'. I only see doom awaiting our Great and Proud Nation unless such a meaningful jolt is given to our political system. A broad alliance can be made from the progressive values of social conservatism and direct and straight talking on defeating the enemy at home and abroad at time of war.

John Savage

Melanie, I totally agree with you. There seems to be little difference between the two parties. What does Cameron believe in? It is all very well watching Labour implode but even the seller of a detergent knows that you have to offer some reason to buy their product.

Tweedledee and Tweedledum come to mind but perhaps it should be updated to Tweedledum and Tweedledumber.

Apostate Guardianista

politics have long since ceased to be about ideas or principles - The Camaroons will simply continue the same petty, authoritarian, mealy mouthed, nannying bullshit so beloved of nuLabour - I despair of my lovely country, as I do the west generally!

Archie

Even more pathetic than a Weimar cabaret act, Ms. Phillips! We can take comfort from the fact that it at least was doomed. Words fail me when thinking about that arch-loon Cameron and his ludicrous non-policies........... and they wonder why the BNP is gathering strength!

Archie

Bhaskar: Entirely and utterly WRONG! This is a country which was founded, populated, built, legislated by and for, boring white men.
A question for you: if you have complaint and seek redress at law, to where do you turn? To laws framed by boring white men. You really are stupid!

hadrian

Put like that, Mel, sadly one couldn't agree more....but very, very reluctantly!
We must just hope that good common sense CONSERVATION of our national values will prevail once they're in and lots of the flim-flam will get buried under the far more serious business that will insistently press in on them!
If they don't I'm definitely ditching them and going UKIP thereafter.

Sam Armstrong

simone bacchini asks:

"I would not vote for someone just because he or she is gay, but what's wrong in encouraging gay men's and women's active participation in our public life?"

You are encouraging them to participate BECAUSE THEY ARE GAY! You cannot promote one person without discriminating against another. Therefore, the state should stay OUT, and leave the ordering of a society to aptitude.

But as a gay man you should also realise that gays manage to get into all sorts of high profile jobs. They didn't invent the term 'gay mafia' for nothing. So the idea of gay men as essentially outcasts is bullshit anyway.

beowulf

This is what they should be concerned about. If this happens there won't be any gays nor anybody else for that matter.
Do watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

leo solomon

Cameron may or may not believe in what he is proposing. He does,however, believe that he has to get on the politically correct band-wagon to get elected.I would suggest an earing -or two-plus a few tasteful tattoos to give him the street cred he lacks.Obama has shown the way and Cameron feels that he must follow .

Lickyalips

As Cameron and other senior politicians of all flavours have passed through the treasonous ideology factory known as 'Common Purpose', then it should come as no surprise that you can't fit a fag-paper between them.
See: http://www.stopcp.com/

Kiran

The old jibe about Roy Jenkin's Social Democrats, that they were a political party by the media, for the media, seems to be true of David Cameron's Tories.
It is probably no coincidence that the issues the Tories are keen to appear concerned about - gay rights, ethnic minority rights, women's rights, saving the planet, international aid, single-motherhood, misunderstood 'yoof' etc, etc - are just the issues which the broadcast media are so very enthusiastic about.
Is this how democracy works these days? First win over the main broadcasters so that they will put in a good word for you with the voters.

Al

@WInston Smith
I agree with you that we shouldn't be bending over to ethnic minorities. If you don't want to integrate, then just leave and go to the country that is more akin to your origins rather than trying to subvert this country.

However, we know that many immigrants work in low-paid sectors (cleaning, etc.) while millions of white indigenous people sit on their sofas watching Britain's Got Talent and getting generous hand-out out of working taxpayers money. Getting rid of illegals and stopping immigration isn't enough, we need to revert to proper work ethic when white people want to work, even if they think the position is too low-paid for them. Because, as we know, work gives people dignity and we can't get this back if we don't encourage and coerce (by cutting generosity of benefits) people to return to work.

Mr Melrose

Hello Derek BLADES

Donald Rumsfeld is a dish and I want his babies. All hail the free market.

Hopefully that has got me past the moderator.

Mr BLADES how do you get away with calling 'her' an idiot and suggesting that some of 'her' writing may not be 110% correct.

Of my light micky taking re 'her' views or that of other free thinkers such as the esteemed 'D' - over 50% are edited out, and not due to personal attacks, bad language etc.

Any tips?

Fergus Pickering

Where is my post where I said you're all rabid, mad dog nutcases and nobody should listen to a word you say?

Pete Hoskin

Mr Melrose: sometimes comments don't get through due to technical reasons - not just moderation.

If one of your comments hasn't gone up - or you feel you've been unfairly moderated - you can always email me on phoskin @ spectator.co.uk and I'll happliy look into it for you.

steve

Just out of curiosity, could someone please tell me who constitutes the "indigenous population" of the UK? How long do you need to have been here to belong to that category? Is the Royal Family indigenous?

paul

These people are driving voters to the right ie BNP. We dont need another Blair. Labour policies have bankrupted us. We need another strong leader like Thatcher who can cut back this ludicrous profligate spending madness that seems to grip everyone in the Government today. We are no more than a banana republic. Our currency is already greatly denuded by these ridiculous policies. Come on Cameron wake up and be a man!!!! Grow some b---- please!!

logdon

steve
May 2nd, 2009 1:08pm

Good point. Would the London bombers be called 'indiginous'? Leader, Siddique Khan was born and bred in Beeston, Leeds and as far as I know Yorkshire has not yet ceded rule to Islamabad. The whole thing has a complexity this dumbass Government has still to work out. PC prevents open and frank discussion further miring the issue in layers of semantics.

Our Royal Family may be of German descent but they didn't scuttle off to Berlin at the onset of the two world wars. Rather, they were key in the British morale boosting activity needed to keep our chins up.

Therefore in the first instance indigenous counted for naught in favour of racial history and heritage.

In the second racial history and heritage counted for naught in favour of indigenous.

The dividing line is Islam and how it is interpreted by immigrants and offspring. Moderates know which side their bread is buttered and accept a majority viewpoint. Radicals knowing that they can get away with spouting hate and dissent in a multicultural environment fight the majority.

Indiginous is therefore a red herring. It all boils down to loyalty.

Sam Armstrong

Steve asks: "Just out of curiosity, could someone please tell me who constitutes the "indigenous population" of the UK?"

I assume that was a rhetorical question. If you can make it to the Spec website, I am sure you understand the word indigenous.

You cannot seriously be suggesting that people who hate Britain, and who have come here with a totally different way of life within the last 60 years are indigenous too!

Your childish Orwellian mind-bending is so '97, and is effective when dealing with the English, who have always understated their pride in their country. So to get a better understanding of the word indigenous, maybe ask a proud Russian, or a proud Afghan, or proud Nigerian what indigenous means to them, and tell them that you think THEY are not the natural peoples of THEIR country.

Of course, you wouldn't dare, you self-loathing bully.

The Diva

Bill Corr, you are educated white male and you don't like three things gay, black and disable, what is wrong with you? if you are educated you would of think better way, when I read your post i only see racist old f*t white man, don't you know racism is dangerous and very old fashion?

kevin gault

Couldn't agree more Melanie, want to stand for leader ??

stanley Jerusalem

Fergus Pickering
May 2nd, 2009 12:58pm
"Where is my post where I said you're all rabid, mad dog nutcases and nobody should listen to a word you say?"
It was published so that even you could see how apposite it could have been, Steve.
Quite taken the wind out of your sails, hasn't it?

D Mac

Yawn! utterly predictable.
What a political journey I've been forced to take so far:
*I used to be an active supporter of Militant (Ted Grant, Peter Taffe, Tony Mulheron and Derek Hatton etal)
*I was also a member of the Labour Party.
*I dropped out of Militant
*I then dropped out of Labour
Reason:I was inching towards supporting the Tories
*Just as I was getting near to marking the box blue come June, I've wavered, thanks to the breed of liberal minded infested 'Tory' wets and their worthless ideas that have recently surfaced. Now I find myself by-passing this useless shower, following my wife and daughter and thousands of others instead towards giving the BNP a good listening to. What a mighty shift - left to right (And I thought the rightward shift terminated at the Tories)
IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT MANY OF US THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY ARE NOW TAKING THIS FURTHER RIGHTWARD PATH THE TORIES STILL DELUDE THEMSELVES INTO THINKING THAT WE'LL VOTE FOR THEM IF ONLY THEY GET GENDER, RACE AND GREEN BALANCE RIGHT
WE THE WEARY COMMON SENSE MAJORITY DON'T GIVE A F....ABOUT THESE SOCIOLOGICAL NICETIES, BUT HOW OUR QUALITY OF LIFE AND SECURITY CAN BE ENHANCED
Where is Cromwell, the only leader with any guts in history, when we need him

Eagle

This is the circus of the reality (politics)of current times. I can posit that the "islamists" want to come to this country because it's broken and (they conclude) we desperately need them to fix it for us.

With tweedledum and tweedledumber to guide us, our way to a "paradise" of shariah will be assured. Keep talking Melanine, we need your voice of sanity in the "Circus of the Reality".

Albert

What we now have, in most major industrialized countries, is de facto one-party rule. We get to vote for the various factions vying for power.

Winston Smith

To Al(May 2nd, 2009 10:53am),

The careful destruction of the UK was well under way long before the immigrants started pouring into the UK in the 70's. The plan was already afoot, with the Business leaders uniting together, rubbing their hands with glee, as they knew the plan they'd developed was a winner for them. The plan was simple, import immigrants, from third world economies, meaning that even if they work for under the minimum wage they'll be more than happy as one week's pay is the equivalent of a years salary back home.

Look back in time go back to 1990 almost twenty years ago; a pint in Scotland was under a 90p, cigarettes were about £1.65 a pack, and rent was around £25 a week. I was earning £3.20 ph as a barman. Now look at the situation - a pint £3(up 300%+), a packet of fags £5.78(up nearly 300%), rent £100 pw(up 400%) and yet the minimum wage has risen to £5.52 ph ( a rise of around 72%).
In a nutshell the cost of living has risen by around 300% while our minimum wage has only risen by a 1/4 of that.

This is all about greed Al. It's not our workforce that's lazy, far from it. It's all about exploitation and a slave wage. Tell me, would you like to work your arse off 40 hours a week, to come home and have no money left for yourself after paying bills? At least in the past, the working man could go down the pub and have a fag and a pint, with the few measly pennies he had in his pocket - no more however.

Two things need to happen on top of the end of immigration and vast removal of those who shouldn't be here, who were given passports far too easily. We should removed all unskilled immigrant labour immediately and return them to their own lands to boost their economy. Foreign governments need to look after their indigenous population and not the UK. Anyway, what I'm saying is this two alternate things need to happen and that is either:

1. The minimum wage is increased to equate with the cost of living and the rise of goods. So instead of a minimum wage of £5.52, it should instead be £9.60.
2. The alternative is a drop in cost and bringing the price of pints, fags, rent etc down by 225%

Once this happens and you give the British people back their dignity with a decent working wage, then they'll do the jobs.
The minimum wage is what it is because it's an easy way of companies making increased profits, with minimum wage output. It's about the destruction of the UK and this is what needs to change - either almost a doubling of the minimum wage or bringing down the cost of living drastically. The government has allowed the cost of living to run far ahead of what workers earn. That's not on and certainly well out of order.

Henry

Peter Hitchens continues the theme set out by Melanie.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1176607/PETER-HITCHENS-Mrs-T-defeated-miners--replaced-homophobia-outreach-workers.html

The Conservatives have two wars to fight, the first is economic, the second is cultural.

Few of the Conservatives even seem to know that they have had the rug pulled from under their feet on the culture war, but it is the most important of the two theatres of war, because it is only there that jihad can be defeated (and thereby aids the financial war where shariah finanace is posing as an 'ethical' alternative to capitalism - Osama must wet himself laughing when he gets this month's zakat contribution from whatever 'charity' front has had its share of shariah finance spoils).

Simply hoping a bit of free market economics will do the trick is not good enough.

Everything must go - else Britain is financially and culturally bankrupt.

David in America

Melanie has got it right again. I wonder why the conservatives, on both on both sides of the pond, are so disconnected from traditional conservative values. Perhaps real conservatives will have to create new parties to represent them.

Derek BLADES

Mr Melrose (2 May) asks me
"...how do you get away with calling 'her' an idiot and suggesting that some of 'her' writing may not be 110% correct."

Good question. A couple of suggestions. First, I think the monitor has been briefed to censor obvious mickey-takers. The occasional one slips through like a real genius a few weeks back who advocated expanding the border of Israel to include Iraq. (Unbelievably, this actually generated serious debate among some of our resident Talmudic scholars!) Generally speaking though the monitor seems to insist that people express opinions sincerely held - even though many border on lunacy as you will have noticed.

Second, my posting often generate a number of replies from the old-timers and I assume that Melanie and her handlers keep a close eye on the comments score. So if you can figure out what will tick off the likes of Adam B, stanley Jerusalem, logdon, Original Tony, TruthTriumphs and suchlike, the monitor may cut you a little slack. Good luck anyway.

Poppy Koch

Is there a glimmer of hope with Michael Gove?

stanley Jerusalem

Derek BLADES
May 3rd, 2009 9:03am
Drek, you flatter yourself, but then who else would?

Derek BLADES

D Mac (2 May) wrote (or SHOUTED rather) "THE TORIES STILL DELUDE THEMSELVES INTO THINKING THAT WE'LL VOTE FOR THEM IF ONLY THEY GET GENDER, RACE AND GREEN BALANCE RIGHT"
Steady on old chap. The fact is that most voters in Britain rather like David Cameron's sensible stance on social and environmental issues. That's why the Tories have such a large lead over New Labour. The old Etonians have rightly concluded that pandering to xenophobes, homophobes, misogynists, and climate vandals will frighten away more educated voters than they can gain from among the like of you and your chums.
(They are wrong of course because with their innate commonsense the British electorate will reinstate New Labour - though with a reduced minority. Any takers for a side bet on this?)

Winston Smith

Henry,

Thatcher was a disaster and many people always state how bl**dy wonderful she was. What I find most laughable about Thatcher and her administration, is that she removed corporal punishment from schools. It wasn't labour before hand, they realised, although as bad as they were in office that removing discipline from school was only asking for trouble. In effect, the disaster that Britain is in socially with Chavs and Neets is all down to her. There's no excuse really. Thatcher's government looked good for the simple reason that any government would look good after Callaghan's time in office in the 70's.

Tancred

Thank God I left to live in France 5 years ago.

The UK has become a complete joke.

Governments sucking up to communities that foster terrorism, Human Rights legislation that only ever gets utilised to protect bad people, open borders, militant minorities, trashed economy, broken society, surviellance, intrusion, brainwashing of schoolchildren, persecution of people who hold/express different opinions, discrimination against white people and men.

The list goes on and on.

No government would be better than the shower we have now.

And yet the Conservatives want to emulate them.

They just don't get it.

The working classes will vote BNP and so will many middle class people now.

They are giving them no other choice.

Lets hope democracy works at the next election and that someone, anyone, steps up and gives the people what they want.

Winston Smith

Tancred wrote:

Thank God I left to live in France 5 years ago.........Governments sucking up to communities that foster terrorism

And you think that France is any better? They may have given London the title of Londonistan but France's history with the Arab Nations and the subsequent mass immigration into the EU was all done by them. The French colonies in North Africa, caused them untold problems and when they collapsed, many of the people moved to France. Why do you think the terrorists are in the UK? How do you think they got here? Does the Channel Tunnel ring a bell? France has let hordes of Islamic terrorists from Islamic states into their land, just so they can head to the coast to hide under lorries, on boats and to get into the UK.
If I was ever going to leave Britain, the last place I'd dream of moving to is France. It will be an Islamic state by 2040. That's guaranteed with Muslim demographic growth rates.
Looks like you'll be moving back to the UK, sooner than you think

Winston Smith

David in America(May 3rd, 2009 2:01am) wrote:

I wonder why the conservatives, on both on both sides of the pond, are so disconnected from traditional conservative values.

Simple, because they're not Conservatives. If you saw a sheep would you say, I wonder why sheep no longer look like goats? No you wouldn't would you?
If the Republicans or the Conservatives were truly conservative in their outlook then they'd be promoting and instituting conservative policies. If they are promoting socialist policies then what does that therefore make them?
The point is that they have turned into BluLabour for the simple reason that they are NuLabour. They do not want to rock the boat in the world of politics and be conservative for fear of not getting elected. They are all so desperate for power, but more importantly the benefits and the high flying living that go with it, they have forgotten what it means to be servants of the British public.

Conservatism in the UK is dead. I don't know about America, but it's been dead in the UK for a while now.

Anth

The "Weimar cabaret act" says it all. You're often wrong, Melanie, but this one's pure inspiration - with a touch of wormwood.

James C

I had been hoping that Cameron had ditched his more extreme Lib Dem policies, but more fool me.
It's obvious that the Tories will be no improvement on the gangsters currently in office.

An American

Tancred,

Are you sure you aren't describing the USA in your last comment? Because these very same issues are now in full bloom under Obama's administration.

The more our economy tanks, the more Obama shows how giddily euphoric he is...all the more reason for him to continue to take over and socialize our private industries and fire their CEOs. He is turning over a good portion of these industries to unions and screwing the stockholders by giving them just 10 cents on the dollar for their investments. Obama's aim is to destroy Capitalism and its working.

Yes, Obama is beside himself with joy. It's all coming together so easy, even he can't quite believe it...

I'm sure that Obama is breaking Constitutional laws by some of his actions, yet the destruction of my country continues.

Universal Health Care will be voted in shortly with not a single vote from the Republican Congress. Reid and Pelosie will institute the short vote to get it done. No matter that the money is not there, nor is there ever going to be enough future competent government doctors and nurses. Why would a young person invest large amounts of money and time to work long hours for a modest government salary? This forced health program will bring about poorer third-world health care for most Americans that won't be able to afford expensive private care, if Obama even allows private health care. But you can bet that the same politicians that voted this in, won't be waiting in queues to see their doctors.

Social Security is tanking, no matter the money is not there. Obama will stop SS payments for people who have good retirement plans even though they were forced to pay into SS for 50 plus years. Obama will tell people to work until they're 70, then hope they drop dead. That way, they will have paid into the fund for 50 years but won't be taking anything out of it. All the more reason for him and his cronies to spend it elsewhere. Politicians in Washington unlocked the SS lockbox decades ago and spent the money on other projects. If it were anyone else, they would be put in prison for fraud.

Yet, the fraud continues...with far left politicians spending trillions that is not there, which will bring about inflation, which means the dollar will go the way of the dodo bird. I wonder what it will feel like to be reduced to spending Chinese yens by the wheel barrel full for a loaf of bread?

Obama wants income taxes to pay for everyone to go to college even if many of our poorly educated, liberal-brainwashed students can't pass the SAT entry exams or be able to utilize a college education afterward. Most probably, he'll do what Europe has done by opening our borders even further to entice even more Mexicans and South Americans laborers to do the work that most Americans will feel they are too good to do. These millions of laborers come from socialist countries and will continue to vote for the left and the freebies the lefties promise.

Our taxes, including federal, state and sales are going to sky rocket to 70% or more except for the people that pay no taxes...they'll get a big fat refund each year, a reward for being losers and continuing to vote for Obama and his handout.

The government no longer works for us, we work for it. Obama wants to turn the American people into government's slaves. He and Michele must find that notion incredibly amusing.

And what does our government do for all that tax money? Not much. Obama swore a presidential oath to protect us from outside invasion, yet he's has slashed the DOD budget and has undermined the CIA in its ability to interrogate our enemies in order to stop future attacks on our homeland. Obama's administration is using the FBI to spy on American conservatives and returning soldiers who disagree with his socialist agenda. It is already happening. We had obvious non-media government people taking pictures of us at our recent Tea Party. My face and sign is now on record somewhere.

There is no one more discriminated against than the white American male. He is portrayed as a buffoon in all our media ads. The white male has been bypassed in our schools with plum job opportunies going first to women and minorities.

Miss USA recently said she was for marriage between a man and woman. She is being castigated in the the ugliest of ways day after day and may lose her Miss California crown.

So much for free speech in America.

Conservatives no longer have any right to voice their opinions or beliefs and when they do, are screamed down with the most venomous of language by the far left which the liberal media can't wait to report.

Liberal Congressmen are trying to silence conservative talk radio and may sometime soon try to pass a bill for equal time for liberal moderators. Fox and conservative radio is our only outlet and they plan to destroy it.

Obama is busy destroying all symbols of Christianity. He recently had a symbol of Christ covered with a black triangle at the Jesuit College of Georgetown...and they let him do it. Notre Dame invited him to speak at their commencement even though Obama has voted for late term abortion...sucking the brains out of a living, viable, innocent baby and letting an aborted live-birth child die without intervention. Yet Catholic Notre Dame will bestow a doctorate on Obama. What's next? The killing of America's elderly citizens who outlive that 70 retirement age?

Christ is now out and is no longer politically correct even though our country was founded on Christian Judeo beliefs.

The only thing that will save us is for things to become so bad while Obama is president that there will be a voter's backlash against him or an outright revolution. But, I don't believe that will happen.

Obama will be allowed to quietly go about unlocking America's back door to Socialism and Fascism that will in the end, destroy the greatest Republic ever created by men.

I'm bereft....`

Dave

Lets face it. Mainstream political parties are just an EU dominated cartel. They aspire to administer on behalf of the EU, making a big production of slightly modifying basic EU polices.

George Laird

Dear All

Yet again the Tory Spectator has allowed a poster to abuse me without allowing me to publish my retort.

"Is Carl under the tutelage of George Bighead and his loonybin one-man band human wrongs campaign?"

This is another example of the social divide which I have been commenting on.

Poor people get less rights and less opportunities than rich people.

To borrow from Ali G and amend slightly;

Is it 'cos I is black (working class)?

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Stu Fagin

Are there any "troublesome young men" among today's Tories? If so, who are they?

Jenny

You've been censored, George?

Good, I've been censored trying to respond to you so it's nice to know the moderator blocks you as well.

Winston Smith

George Laird,

I see you work for the Campaign for Human Rights in Glasgow University. Don't you mean the Campaign for Minority supremacy over the majority? I'm still trying to fathom Human Rights because so far, all I've seen of Human rights is legalised persecution of victims, especially here in the UK. I think many people here in the UK are beginning to realise that Human Rights is in fact just a smokescreen for minority rule in favour of ethnics and non heterosexuals. More importantly I also think many people here in the UK have seen that the Campaigning for Human Rights has managed to successfully destroy everything about the UK. The "finger seems to be controlling the body" as such thanks to Human Rights. The campaign for Human Rights also seems to be the foot that stamps down on any debate on uncontrolled immigration and the right to export terrorists out of the UK.
With all the above, do you not feel ashamed, even mentioning you have anything to do with Human Rights? Do you really think the British people are so stupid as to not see that Human Rights, is nothing more than a cancer within any society?
There are many countries in this world that actually do need Human Rights, predominately Muslim and Communist regimes, but the last country or even civilisation, to ever need them is the Western one, as it has been the advocate of Human Rights through its society and government policy, before the Human Rights courts were ever invented.

To borrow from Ali G and amend slightly;
Is it 'cos I is black (working class)?

Why did you mention this please? Are you black? Are you oppressed(not saying that anyone is in the UK, apart from the majority by the minority that is), or are you just dropping into conversation killing on discussion of the minorities, with the usual racial slur lambaste?

Kershan

"from the safety of an unchallenged speaking spot in front of a sycophantic audience" ... so nothing like writing for the Daily Mail, then.

Tancred

Winston Smith chunters on about how bad the French are but I can tell him that life in France is infinitely better than life in the UK.

Yes they do have a muslim problem, apparemtly 75% of the prison population is muslim (a combination of a high crime rate in muslim communities and a low crime rate in the indiginous population), but it is confined to specific localities and doesnt spread across the country like in the UK. Remember, France is 4 times the size with the same population. The French are also proud of their history and culture and have no truck with multiculturalism. Any preachers of hate are expelled by ministerial order - contrast that to the sorry affair of Abu Hamza who actually had police protection whilst regularly blocking a road to preach his islamic hatred.

I know the UK.

I also know France. You sir do not.

Tancred

To "An American".

Well said.

The problem is no longer just about ideology as if in a vacuum.

We need to look at who votes, who they vote for and WHY.

The electorate isn't homogenous.

In the UK the people who vote Labour tend to be public sector employees, the underclass, benefit claimants, minorities, single parents.

Conservative voters tend to be professionals, the self employed, the progressive working class, traditionalists who believe in family, country and culture. The hard working, law abiding and self reliant.

Labour has assiduously bribed its constituency with open borders, toleration of intolerant groups, minority preferences, unearnt benefits and a campaign against traditional family life - single parent families, for example, are not self reliant - they need the State.

On the other hand they have soaked the working, wealth creating, section of the population. Not the mega rich you understand - they can avoid tax - but the middle class and progressive working class.

Now the house of cards created by the socialists has collapsed.

Obama, like Brown, was a prime mover in "easy money" for people who could not/would not repay it.

Now the people who only borrowed what they could afford to repay are being expected to bail out those who took out sub-prime mortgages or borrowed 4-6 times income and ridiculous mortgage to value.

The people who lived within their means to save some money and build up a pension have seen their savings interest slashed and their pensions written down.

Note that none of this affects most Labour voters. Benefits are still paid, public sector staff still get paid and have a gold plated pension to look forward to. Amidst high unemployment Harriet Harman is now legislating against white men being employed.

The ultimate outcome is bizarre.

Work hard, look after yourself and generate wealth and you are punished. Sit back and be spoon fed by the State and you are OK.

Socialists have changed the demographics of the UK (as in the US) to favour their own position.

The end result will be poverty, loss of freedom, crime, unrest and economic collapse.

The people of the UK are now the watched, criminalised, "hemmed in" people in the West.

Anyone who speaks out against socialist policy is hounded out of their jobs, financially ruined and criminalised.

The UK is now more like Communist East Germany.

It's not surprising so many of us are leaving.

And all the Conservative Party can do is try to be Blue Labour.

Titanic, iceberg, deckchairs?

Raymond Joseph Douglas

The Who once sang , "meet the new boss , same as the old boss " So Cameron will give us the same PC anti-marriage , pro homosexual rights that mad Hattie and her crew would visit on us ! But perhaps this is our fault . We as a nation , have turned away from the things that gave our nation cohesion and stability. We trash our Christian faith ,we play fast and loose in our relationships, seeking our own needs before those of our children. So, perhaps we get the "Conservatives" we deserve ! In saying that, I long for a decent tory to lead the conservatives. Until I get one, they will not get my vote !

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Tancred, I agree with you many people in Britain are better off living in France and their are a lot of British refugees out there all ready, France has a better Law and order then here, Winston Smith I think you are just a liberal, or just a British man who don't want to see the reality, my personal experience the muslims in Britain are more rude, ignorant and demanding, they are more different then the ones from Marrakesh, Casablanca, Djerba etc, those north Africans kind of integrated, I see those guys working hard in Paris, and I mean Paris not the suburbs of Paris, on the other hand London has the most mosques in Europe and some parts of London they already practising sharia law

Neil Saunders

OK Al, let's say that YOU find yourself out of a job, and have to take whatever is offered to you. What's the minimum wage that YOU will clean toilets or empty bedpans for? I suspect that it's very unlikely that you will ever find yourself in that position, and that consequently it is all too easy for you to pontificate to the indigenous working class of this country how THEY should be prepared to compete with immigrants for starvation wages.

Immigrants have clearly been quite deliberately brought over to this country to undercut the indigenous workforce, since a very low wage for them over here represents a huge improvement in their material circumstances compared to those in their country of origin. For the hapless indigenous worker it represents a drastic fall in their expectations, and many, quite understandably, refuse to compete in a labour market so clearly rigged against them.

Over the last thirty years an informal coalition has arisen between the free-market right and the politically-correct left. Immigration is one area where the interests of both elements of the coalition are clearly served. The free-market right gets a low-pay, low-skill imported workforce/welfare-dependent labour surplus; the PC left gets a client-base of ethnic "minorities" as fodder for the social re-engineering of our nation into a multicultural, "diverse" utopia. It's despicable.

Since I detest their crude, cruel criminal justice policies I cannot personally support or endorse the BNP, but I can completely understand why many white working-class Britons, utterly disenfranchised by the barely-distinguishable mainstream parties, will flock to them in droves come June 4th.

Winston Smith

Tancred,

Forgive me. I just happen to know about the French. I happen to know of Monet, who created what is the EU. I happen to know that it was the French who want to destroy every Nation state in Europe in order to create one big SupraNation, one European government, one leader, one currency and of a conglomeration of states with a party of untouchable, super elite, politicians. I happen to know a lot about France's history and its downright hatred for the British. I happen to know that France's resentment at Britain having an Empire, conceived a plan to create it's 'own' under the guise of a European Super nation.
Now I don't know where you live in France, it really does not interest me in the slightest, for the simple reason that I live in the UK, I see the mess and I haven't fled the country I was born in, to live as an ex pat in another land while harping on about how terrible Britain is. You're a Frenchman now. What happens in Britain should no longer concern you as you've turned your back on it. And one final thing, why not do some research on De Gaulle, especially on how he made sure that Britain had given up every perk in trade with its commonwealth countries in order for it to join the EU. This was all about French gain and they have been since they put pen to paper on the creation of the EUSR.
France will be the first Muslim state in Europe. No ifs, no buts, just a matter of time.

And Margaret Muller-Johansson, I'm not a liberal.
One thing that really amazes me are all the 'so called' British people who moan on about the UK, when they've fled. You have, alas, no leg to stand on. Integrate into your new country, for Britain should no longer hold any interest to you anymore.

Alexandrovich

Tancred, you say that France is four times the size of the UK.

France: 543,965 sq km.
UK. 243,073 sq km.

Although I'm sure, as you say, you do know France.

Fergus Pickering

Who IS this bleeding moderator? He blocks me as well amd everybody knows I'm a pussy cat.

Pete Hoskin

Fergus: sometimes comments don't go up for technical reasons, not just moderation. If one of your comments hasn't shown up, you can always email me on phoskin @ spectator.co.uk and I'll gladly look into it.

An American

Hi Pete Hoskin,
My last comment to Tancred didn't make it in either....

I haven't lived in either Britain or France...but in my last visit to the UK, the British restaurant food had certainly improved...of course, we mostly ate in French restaurants. But must say one of the most memorable desserts I've ever had was a meringue with fresh garden raspberries with double cream....mmmmm yummy!

Derek BLADES

Winston Smith's (May 4th, 2009 1:20pm) belief in a French conspiracy theory is alarming but, regrettably, it seems to be shared by other poorly educated bigots who support "conservative" politics. The French quite rightly fight for their own interests in Europe as does every other country with a sensible foreign policy – the UK included.
Winston-Smith is entitled to wallow in his petty-minded francophobia but he has no right to forbid Tancred and Margaret Muller-Johansson from commenting on the UK because they do not live there. French residents of whatever nationality enjoy full rights to freedom of expression - something that would apparently be lost in the nightmare scenario of a country ruled by Winston Smiths.

Barry Larking

Power by any means possible.

Original Tony

The Tories sound like an Obama clone...dear lord what is happening to us??

Tancred

Alexandrovich, you spotted my typo.

Well done

France is 4 times the size of England. Thats the important statistic. As you well know.