A crisis bigger than individuals

Mark

This is a bit desperate!

George

To take Mercutio out of context: "A plague o' both your houses!"

GaryO

Never trust a politician.

Ian G

You are right. It is a scandal for democracy and the whole system needs reform. My fear is that the reforms and punishments will not be just. It will do no good if the innocent learn that they will be hanged for wolves when they have been law-abiding sheep (no inference about their personalities or performance as MPs intended). We need the honest Michael Goves of all parties to effect a reform and give leadership to what will be a tranche of very new and green MPs. Please note that 'Blair's Babes were once new and green. Their is no guarantee that new MPs will be any better unless the tone is set by older, wiser and more experienced MPs. It is essential that people like Michael Gove are believed otherwise we will never have an honest political class. It is the responsibility, now, of the media to correct any false impressions. The innocent must be publicly exonerated and with none of the mealy-mouthed talk about 'lack of evidence' such as the Police are fond of using.

If this is not done, then a new collection of cynical politicians will simply be better at covering their tracks, no matter how thorough the system OR, and this will be much worse, we will have a collection of honest but paralysed political drones.

stanley Jerusalem

One is unsure of the purpose of focusing on Michael Gove amid the melee of more 'deserving' causes observed in this 'Parliamentary legalised trough feeding.' He has both insisted that his moving was entirely legal and without profit and more to the point logical for the well-being of his family and also that the benefits accruing from grants received as a result of his move are totally permissible under the present system. It therefore seems somewhat unfriendly to single out the only M.P. who has shown himself to be loyal to and supportive of the usual Middle Eastern themes discussed on this blog. So, in a word Melanie, why pick on Michael?

stanley Jerusalem

In the Bible, one of King David's Generals slanders one of his Ministers. The King expropriates the Minister's possessions and banishes him. The General makes a death-bed confession of his slander and the King reinstates the Minister and restores half of his property. Only the slanderer and the recipient know the whole truth. The bystander retains a residual mistrust and acts accordingly - in other words mud sticks. Please leave Michael alone.
Oh, it's too late.

phil

There are others like Michael Gove who are honourable representatives of the people but sadly there are too many who although within "the law" are outside the peoples definition of morality --what can we do ? I do not know as to throw them out would mean we hardly have a house of commons left.
For too long we have descended into a land full of spivs where the desire to have a good reputation has been replaced by the pursuit of monetary gain at reputations expense .We seem to have gone full circle from when to be an MP one needed wealth, to a time when it has become the attainment of that wealth that has motivated too many to become our representatives -as Obama says it is time for change .

Original Tony

Mel...why is the Tory party the 'dark side'?

I would have thought they are the searchlight in the darkest night of our history outside WW2. A night so black only Labour could have got us there.

Greg

"sadly jeopardised his claim to be a human being when he went over to the dark side by leaving journalism and becoming a Tory MP"

Are you kidding me? Journos are about as dark side as you can get. I'd rather my daughter marry an estate agent.

Louise K

What's "desperate" about it, Mark? Do you know anyone who believes a word from any MPs who have claimed anything?

It isn't enough that expenses were legitimately claimed any more. Just the fact that you have claimed them at all is likely to mean your damned.

Gove is being smeared with other people's horse doo doo regardless of whether his expenses claim was legit.

israel

This is just like the finanical crash in some way. These MP's saw others making money out of milking the system thought "well if they can l want some too". The claims are staggering from bathplugs to manure to swimming pools. It laso destroys that meme that Cameron was trying to put forward that the conservatives are no longer the party of the elites, though l am pleasently surprised that the torygraph threw some of their schoolmates under the bus on this. The cynic in me thought they would do their best to damp down what they did in these expenses claims.

Ian C

A crisis indeed, and therefore a real opportunity to bring the 19th Century British constitution up to date for the 21st Century.

If Cameron has half his wits about him he will see this too and he could become a truly transformative figure, if he plays it as he should.

Has he got it in him.....? And has he got enough good people around him to help him see the opportunity and seize it?

JOhn R

I too felt the same about Michael Gove. He does seem to have genuine integrity and a sense of personal morality. It is too easy (GaryO)to say "never trust a politican" as there are genuinely honest ones out there of which Michael is one. However, it also shows the extent to which many MPs (and the rest of us too)are prepared to abandon their own moral judgement for the standards set by the regulators. "I was only working within the rules set down by Parliament". "I was only following instructions". Individual standards of personal behaviour, judgement and morality appear to be related to the strength of a "culture" and likewise, inversely related to the number of regulators and rules. Is this decline in judgement and behaviour caused by the ascendency of moral relativism in a muti-culti society and do we need to become more judgemental? Can it be changed by encouraging individual responsibility - or is education the only way in which we can all be made fit and worthy members of society?

Ronnie

To be fair to Melanie (!), she is actually making the point that Michael Gove is indeed the victim of a feeding frenzy. It does seem that a lot of people are now realising that.

Ed Bell

Doesn't explain why we should fork out for his furniture if he can't be bothered hopping on the train from his constituency.

J. Isaacs

All this flipping brings to mind the words to the theme song of the well-known sixties TV series about a dolphin called Flipper. The words were:

"They call him Flipper, Flipper,
Faster than lightning,
No one you see
Is smarter than he."

ken Stevens

Vote ,in EU and General Elections, for anyone but Conservative, Labour or Liberal Democrats.
.. Or at least attend a polling station and spoil the ballot paper to register disgust at the political establishment.

simone bacchini

I was saddend and surprised too to hear about Michael Gove's "flipping". So, was it not really flipping but a genuine change of addreess? Has he ever herad of communting?
Still, this does not justify his excessive claim for a stay in a London hotel and claims for - among other things - fancy furniture for his flat, which he could and should have paid for with his own money and NOT with OURS!
He might not be the biggest culprit but sorry Mel, he can't be exculpated that easily.
In addition, when interviewed he came up with the same line as everyone else's, "the system is rotten". No Michael, systems are not rotten: people are, and remember you and your colleagues could have changed it at any time but chose not to.
So with sadness, when you came up with your lame excuse, I reached for the sick bag.

De Ranged

It is also abundantly clear the Speaker has to go too!

sweetie

I think that the solution to mps expenses is to give them a wage only. Government should buy a large block of flats or a
big hotel within walking distance of parliament. This would be staffed by people who are paid directly by the government. Mps would stay there free of charge with only their food to buy(why they claim for food is ridiculous when they would have to eat whether they are in London or at home.) If they are unhappy with this arrangement they could find some alternative accommodation but this must be at their own expense. This would remove the need for expenses from the "system".

Linda Smith

I vote for "Animal Farm" as compulsory text on secondary school curriculum.

stanley Jerusalem

Original Tony
May 12th, 2009 10:07am
"Mel...why is the Tory party the 'dark side'?"
She means he's abandoning the honorable trade of journalism for the dishonorable one of politician.
We usually light a yellow bulb when a joke is made en passant but evidently you weren't watching the road Mark.
Or to quote a more familiar source,"Come to the Dark Side, Mark,it is your destiny."

stanley Jerusalem

Greg
May 12th, 2009 10:20am
"Are you kidding me? Journos are about as dark side as you can get. I'd rather my daughter marry an estate agent."
What ever happened to good old Used Car salesman?

Nannette

IF there would have been an ounce of honour left in the House, Parliament would have been immediately dissolved and a general election announced.

Sadly, MPs these days have no honour, and no scruples about ripping off the taxpayer!

Ed Bell

What chance do we have when we have a speaker who can barely read. I mean it, listen to his speeches, he has remdial English skills.

David Raynes

Nice try Melanie, to do a favour for a mate. Gove is indeed one of those people who many people (including me) believed the best of. He has however apparently been "at it" here is an extract from the Telegraph:
INSERT>
Over a five-month period between December 2005, and April 2006, he spent more than £7,000 on the semi-detached house, which Mr Gove, 41, and his wife Sarah Vine, a journalist, bought for £430,000 in 2002. Around a third of the money was spent at Oka, an upmarket interior design company established by Lady Annabel Astor, Mr Cameron’s mother-in-law.

Mr Gove bought a £331 Chinon armchair from there, as well as a Manchu cabinet for £493 and a pair of elephant lamps for £134,50.

He also claimed for a £750 Loire table – although the Commons’ authorities only allowed him to claim £600 – a birch Camargue chair worth £432 and a birdcage coffee table for £238.50. Other claims in the five-month period included Egyptian cotton sheets from the White Company, a £454 dishwasher, a £639 range cooker, a £702 fridge freezer and a £19.99 Kenwood toaster.

Mr Gove even claimed for a £34.99 foam cot mattress in Feb 2006 from Toys 'R’ Us – despite children’s equipment being banned under Commons rules. He also charged the taxpayer for eight coffee spoons and cake forks, worth £5.95 each, four breakfast knives and a woven door mat worth £30. A claim for new patio furniture worth £219, including a four-seater bistro dining set, was turned down by Commons officials.

Some months later, Mr Gove moved house and transferred his second home allowance from the west London home to a £395,000 new property near Guildford.

In October 2006 he submitted a £13,259 bill for the cost of the move, including his local authority searches, fees and stamp duty. In between the house moves, he stayed for a night at the Pennyhill Park Hotel and Spa, charging the taxpayer more than £500 for a single night’s stay.

In 2007-08 and 2006-07 Mr Gove claimed the maximum amount of money permitted under the additional costs allowance: £23,083 and £22,110 respectively.
END INSERT>
Just why does he need two houses? ( I assume he always had two since it is the second home allowance he is claiming)Guildford is emminently commutable. Lots of people with much more onerous hours than Mr Gove do it. Would he have bought the new house without the allowance system and the flipping? I very much doubt it. Were his claims for furnishing items (those we know about) ALL reasonable and necessarily incurred in the public interest? Why was he putting in claims that were rejected? What moral compass (or maze?) inspired him to do that? Was the hotel stay needed? Like many others (Follett especially comes to mind) he just cannot need a second house in London. His constituency is commutable and on rare occasions he could take a hotel in London like ordinary folk who work late in the capital do. Has he been corrupted by the system or was he corrupt before he joined it? What a mess. Sadly my own (Tory) MP even bought horse manure for his Somerset garden. That annoys me on two levels, firstly he abused public money and secondly in most of Somerset, manure gets given away free and he appears too stupid to understand that. Whatever, they are all in it-that includes Gove, though he put up a stout defence. My advice to you is to stear clear of defending individual MPs-even your mates. Let the ordure settle.

Augustus

"All pigs are equal, but some bigs are more equal than others."

Connor Davies

"Don't Vote Tory" says Lord Tebbit.

Exactly. Don't vote Labour or LibDem either. Full of careerist opportunists. The time has come for the one smaller party with any credibility.

www.greenparty.org.uk

stanley Jerusalem

I have no idea who said it but

" First they get on, then they get honour and finally they get honest."

Margaret Muller-Johansson

You are right Melanie, The British are not polite anymore, politeness is in the Past...

SHAME!

Linda Smith

Connor Davies posted: "The time has come for the one smaller party with any credibility."

What is the evidence that the Greens would have acted any differently?

Original Tony

Stanley Jerusalem: 11:45...thanks mate, I'm not up to date with a lot of political innuendo. Lol

Thomas

Hmm, would this be the same `upright' Michael Gove who blagged a discount on his honeymoon on the back of his position as assistant editor of the Times?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2002/may/19/business.theobserver

Agha Ali Arkahn

This never would happen in Canada. In Canada, honesty is the rule.

we have done those things we should not have done

I am puzzled as to why Melanie should think Gove has been falsely and unfairly accused. I haven’t seen his statement, but I did see him on TV last night. A picture of embarrassment and contrition (or the nearest thing to it I’d seen), I thought.

It was clear he had claimed for things for which he now regretted claiming. But he seemed also to be acknowledging that he had made claims for things he should not have done.

Dave

*channels M&S*
Moats, Swimming Pools and Chandeliers. These aren't just MP's expenses, these are Tory MP's expenses.

we have done those things we should not have done

From David Cameron’s announcement today I note that, of the amounts to be repaid by various prominent Conservative MPs, the amount Gove is to repay is actually the highest.

Which suggests Gove may be among the worst offenders.

Perhaps as Melanie wrote in the Mail he is “displaying about as much ethical sensibility as the lumps of meat they have charred on (his) ill-gotten barbecues.”

we have done those things we should not have done

Melanie writes that:

"I did not think he was it was (sic) remotely plausible that he would have ripped off the taxpayer in this way."

Joe Strummer

I don't believe a word from any of the MP's who've casually pocketed taxpayers cash in that they are genuinely "sorry". They are only sorry that they've been rumbled by an increasingly angry electorate. They'd all still be claiming anything and everything they could get their grasping claws into. We know that as do they. From The Speaker downwards they have all had a good laugh literally at our expense.

someone got the wrong end of the stick

Melanie says Gove has been "falsely and unfairly accused" and then stanley Jerusalem accuses her of picking on him (ie Gove).

Well gosh, that's some picking on! What a bully, eh?!

On the contrary I thought Melanie might be defending Gove for precisely the reason sJ objects to his mention - viz that Gove "has shown himself to be loyal to and supportive of the usual Middle Eastern themes discussed on this blog."

But what do I know.

D.Smith

Sorry Melanie I just don't buy it re Gove
The Tory party will not govern with legitimacy if it has as ministers any single MP or Lord who has abused the system. They must retire from public life -paying back their ill gotten gains is irrelevant.
Only this can preserve our democracy.
New men and women untainted by this abuse of power must rule.
Only such people deserve to be listened to and to have the privilege of power

Roy

Blame their wives. They might well have been pestering the bread winner to throw his net more effectively. The tea parties are a get-together to discuss who gets what and hubby gets told to put in a claim. Who's betting?

George Steiner

Don't blame the system fellows. The system is fine. It is the people who are rotten.

stanley Jerusalem

someone got the wrong end of the stick
May 12th, 2009 7:49pm
No son, you got the wrong stick.

Agha Ali Arkahn
May 12th, 2009 4:28pm
"This never would happen in Canada. In Canada, honesty is the rule."
Guard : Duncan the King is slain!
Lady Macbeth: Not in my house!

wrong stick

In reply to someone-got-the-wrong-end-of-the-stick - me -stanley Jerusalem wrote:

No son, you got the wrong stick.

I’m rather entertained by this, by some measures, almost perfect post; it’s angry, patronising and devoid of content, and it hints at a tangent that’s never made explicit.

But will stanley tell us why to acquit Gove is actually to pick on him?

stanley Jerusalem

wrong stick
May 13th, 2009 1:32pm
Thank you for your admiration.I always feel a sinking feeling when complimented in such circumstances as though I haven't seen the quicksands notice.
My wonder is why Melanie chose to highlight the obvious flouting of the regulations with the example of this particular MP rather than light upon more egregious examples of which there are sadly many.

Robin

In all this furore about MPs and their allowances, I find it interesting to look at what happens in the US with regard to pay & allowances for members of Congress.

Go here for details: http://www.rules.house.gov/Archives/RL30064.pdf

Robin

Connor Davies: "The time has come for the one smaller party with any credibility.

www.greenparty.org.uk"

You're having a laugh, surely.

phil

someone got the wrong end of the stick-------
May 12th, 2009 7:49pm --did this discussion have to degenerate into "who supports Israel"-one notices that there is no cynical remarks by you about others like bob marshall andrews who takes a different view ,and would one be wrong in being suspicious of your motives -just thought I would ask .

David Raynes

Gove "gets it" or says he does.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/15/michael-gove-mps-expenses

Rhys Burriss

The baseline 'primum mobile' of all this is the capture of Parliament by the - 'never worked in a real job' - class - people with degrees in PPE and 'experience' as bag carriers or 'researchers' for Party HQ. Over half the present Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet can be so described.

Therefore only acceptable reform is for all parties to hold OPEN PRIMARIES off their members plus any members of the public prepared to sign up as broadly supportive of the party's stated ideals (sic)..

Sitting MPs can compete with other potential candidates in 'Question Time' type debates and see who emerges as the candidate for the party - hopefully persons who have for at least 20 years made a real contribution to society as policemen, shop assistants, doctors, bricklayers: whatever.

The ludicrous business of teenagers and 20-somethings with connections being chosen as candidates must stop.

People who know what the struggle to put bread on the table is really about would be less likely to have the unjustified sense of entitlement which is how this has all arisen.

OPEN PRIMARIES NOW - that's the cry - will Melanie Phillips do something useful by supporting it ?

Carl

Caught with his snout in the trough - I really hope that we prosecute these grasping swine.