The final solution

Indigo121

Yes, Fatah are the "moderates":

They only support terror attacks against civilians if it "serves the Palestinian purpose";

They support peace ONLY when Israel accepts the right of return: i.e. the two-state solution for one people- The Palestinians;

And they only express their real hopes in Arabic.

These are the "Moderates".

phil

more hate filled rhetoric from those that love to hate and fight ,they have fooled themselves for millenia and given themselves courage with threats ,if ever they espouse love and peace they may find the world is different for them .no doubt my words are wasted but I feel better for saying them .

Sam Armstrong

"the world is led by people who have given their brains a vacation"

Zaki's assessment is deeply embarrassing but correct.

Mailman

When will the MSM start asking why arabs have continually opposed the two state solution over the course of the last 60 years?

Or is that expecting just too much?

Louise K

And where is this in my paper? On the TV bulletins? On the current affairs shows?

Nowhere.

When the facts don't fit the anti-Israeli prejudice, they are simply ignored.

Israel, understand that in Europe and the US news like this is simply ignored. The mainstream media are willing your destruction.

Augustus

It is no surprise that another appointee of the Palestinian Authority has again tried to foment hatred of the Jews quite openly. The PA's chief Islamic Judge, Tayseer Rajab Tamimi stepped up to the podium at the Pope's recent visit to Jerusalem
uninvited, and urged Muslims and Christians to unite against Israelis who were allegedly committing mass murder and making Palestinians refugees. Of course, HIS goal is to commit mass murder and make all all Israeli Jews refugees.

To his credit, the Pope walked out and his office said the speech by Tamimi was not approved as part of the meeting,
and was the opposite of what interfaith dialogue should be. But it does illustrate to what lengths of rudeness and incitement Palestinian
spokesmen will go in their hatred of Israel.

Eli Tabori

And Tony Blair in his irresponsibility went to Washington to sell the idea to the U.S. Senate.
At the behest of whom?

Alex Bensky

Not infrequently I read that the PLO has dropped the sections of its charter that call for the destruction of Israel. This is taken as evidence that the Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist. Obviously the next step is more Israeli concessions.

Not that anyone in the msm is going to take notice, but in fact the Palestinians have never revoked the charter passages in question. They said they were going to, they said that the passages were non-operative, but they have never actually revoked them or agreed that they have.

But as usual, even-handedness consists of demanding words from the Arabs and deeds from the Jews. And as to Arab recognition of Israel as per se a concession--I live safely in the US and I wouldn't presume to instruct the Israelis on how to secure themselves but...in my opinion the time is long past when Jews should have to negotiate over their right to live, or that agreeing that we have a right to live as others do is something over which we have to bargain.

Dee Ranged

This should be required reading for Obama, Blair, Clinton and the motely crew. The Pope even!

Original Tony

This my second attempt at saying this, or are Christian viewpoints banned now?

Zechariah 12 verse 3 says that (and I paraphrase for ease of understanding)Jerusalem will become a stumbling block to all nations and that all nations will dash themselves against this rock.

This is a prophetic book and with or without realizing it Abbas Zaki has hit the nail on the head; Jerusalem is the key to doing away with 'The Chosen' people of God (the Jews)because if Jerusalem falls then Judaism dies and if Judaism dies then the enemy of Israel and its seed will be happy because it will make God out to be a liar...the very God that says the Jews will never disappear.

This so clearly illustrates that the middle east battle is spiritual in nature and all of us who post here need to realise this.

The spiritual aspect of this problem is as important as apple in an apple pie. You cannot divorce the politics from the spiritual in this case.

Adam B.

When "historians" like Irving question the Holocaust, they are rightly condemned and labelled extremist by the media.

Abbas writes his PhD at Moscow University denying the scale of the Holocaust, and he gets labelled "moderate."

Go figure.

ahad ha'amoratsim

"the world is led by people who have given their brains a vacation – the American administration" but, but, but the Democratic party promised us that once we replaced Bush with a Democrat, and especially Obama pbuh, the Muslim world would suddenly love the US.

Linda Smith

Arafat, hailed by the Fatah Palestinian ambassador to Lebanon as "the pioneering leader" of the PLO/Fatah which "has not changed its platform even one iota", claimed as his "hero" genocidal Nazi Al Husseini who, in 1948 on the declaration of Israeli statehood, incited : "I declare a Holy war my Muslim Brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!"

In 1946, aged 17, Arafat met Haj Al Husseini and started to work for him.

'Yasser Arafat was interviewed by Al Sharq Al Awsat (London Arabic Daily) and reprinted in Palestinian daily Al Quds on August 2, 2002:

“We are not Afghanistan… We are the mighty people. Were they able to replace our hero Hajj Amin Al-Husseini?… There were a number of attempts to get rid of Hajj Amin, when they considered him an ally of the Nazis. But even so, he lived in Cairo, and participated in the 1948 War and I was one of his troops.” (Translation found on Palestinian Media Watch web site.)' http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/amin_en.html#part2

Al Husseini was a genocidal Nazi fascist. Following the unsuccessful pro-Nazi coup which he organised in Iraq, Haj Amin el Husseini arrived in Europe and was officially received by Adolf Hitler on 28 November 1941 in Berlin.
'Nazi Germany established for der Grossmufti von Jerusalem a Bureau from which he organized the following:
1) radio propaganda on behalf of Nazi Germany;
2) espionage and fifth column activities in Muslim regions of Europe and the Middle East;
3) the formation of Muslim Waffen SS and Wehrmacht units in Bosnia-Hercogovina, Kosovo-Metohija, Western Macedonia, North Africa, and Nazi-occupied areas of the Soviet Union; and,
4) the formation of schools and training centers for Muslim imams and mullahs who would accompany the Muslim SS and Wehrmacht units. As soon as he arrived in Europe, the Mufti established close contacts with Bosnian Muslim and Albanian Muslim leaders. He would spend the remainder of the war organizing and rallying Muslims in support of Nazi Germany.' ('http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/022.shtml)

On 1 March 1944 Al Husseini addressed Muslim SS Nazi troops from Berlin: "Kill the Jews whereever you find them. This pleases God, History and Religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."

In his memoirs after the war, Al Husseini noted that

"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab World. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours'."

Genocide, apparently, is still the goal of PLO/Fatah which "has not changed its platrform even one iota."

Bill M

OK, so he was honest. The truth is out there for all to hear, spoken by a representative of the PLO. He has clearly stated their intent and strategy which is the destruction of Israel. And this from the PLO, the "nice" Jew-haters, who is unlike Hamas---the not-nice Jew-haters.

Right? All set, then?

OK, world leaders, powers and principalities, go bury your heads back in the sand and pretend those remarks were never said. Actually, more to the actual truth, admit you are a bunch of Israel-hating anti-Semites and are working toward the same goal as Hamas and the PLO.

barackobama

Most Israelis support the two-state solution, according to a new opinion poll.
JERUSALEM (AFP) — Most Jewish Israelis want Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to back the two-state solution to the Middle East conflict, said a poll published on Friday...
Fifty-eight percent of Jewish Israelis think Netanyahu should support the two-state solution, according to the poll by the Rafi Smith Institute published on the Ynet news website...The strongest support for two states came from Israel's secular community, with 73 percent of non-religious Jews backing withdrawal from occupied territory in return for peace, it said...Religious Jews polled took a much harder line. Seventy percent of Israel's Orthodox Jewish community said they "did not agree with the idea of two states"...Younger Israelis were more hawkish than their seniors. Of those under the age of 30, only 46 percent endorsed a Palestinian state, compared with 63 percent among the over-60s. The poll was conducted among a representative sample of 500 Jewish Israelis and had a 4.5 percent margin of error.
The question that this column needs to answer is this: if the two-state solution is rejected, what's the alternative? There seem to be four:
1 Jordan and Egypt take over the West Bank and Gaza. Both countries have refused.
2 Population movements out of the West Bank. This is a probable source of war.
3 Israel takes over West Bank. This will make Jews a minority in Israel.
4 Let the status quo continue.
Answers please.

Michael B

Precisely so.

Likewise, the Bonanno family's protection rackets and other negotiated dealings reflect the 'moderates' as compared to the Gambino family's deal makers and enforcers. Precisely due to their moderate and more reasonable course, we should be realistic and give them official fiefdoms in the form of mayoral seats and police chief appointments. They've been around for ages now, they've earned it. Change the name from NYC to CFF - City of the Five Families - and, voila, peace, comity and brotherhood will reign. Some things will change (some banking and financial operations, some automobile corporations and dealerships, the definition of "science," for example), but progress demands progressive adjustments be made and all in all a new era of wonderfulness will have dawned.

All this talk about organized crime? Pah, a bunch of talk. We need to be reasonable, we need to be realistic. Does anyone think the present order, the police, the elected officials, are angels or something? The real problem is the oppressor class and it's time we moveOn and formally acknowledge that fact.

Linda Smith

Wm Hazlitt: the phrase "a shining beacon of exemplary virtue" was used by you, not me, in relation to Israel's ethos.

re legitimacy: A State is a human convention. Throughout history, States have been created by the human beings who had the power to do so. Human beings create a State by pegging out territory, forming a Government and calling it a State. Those human beings also determine the ethos of their State. Other Human beings/States will choose to recognise that State or not, depending on their own ideology. Thus Islamic States refuse to recognise the Jewish State of Israel because a Jewish State is antithetical to Islamic religious beliefs.

Legitimacy" of Statehood is a human convention. "Legitimacy" and recognition will depend on the ideology of the bestower. From your frequent posts on the "legitimacy" of the Jewish State of Israel on these threads, I assume you question Israel's legitimacy as a Jewish State. Do you question the legitimacy of the Vatican City? Do you question the legitimacy of self-styled Islamic States? Or is only the legitimacy of a Jooooish State you question?

Sergey

Since alternatives 1,2,3 proposed by barackobama are not acceptible, let us embrass #4: keep status quo.

Shy Guy

barackobama
May 16th, 2009 7:29am:

Most Israelis support the two-state solution, according to a new opinion poll.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" (attributed to D'Israel).

I, too, was initially suckered in to this poll's results. However, read the same news item at INN. Here's the line you weren't deservant to read:

"Eighty-four percent of respondents were self-defined as leftist or center-left."

This is not the make-up of Israeli society. It might be the maku-up of Tel Aviv or Ben Gurion University's academic staff. And to them I say: stupid Jews!

Regards from Jerusalem.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Israel the land of G*d, if people wants to live there and worship and behave well they can, but if some people are saying it is no bodies land but the Palestinians, this is wrong and childish, my opinion is the land of G*d is for everyone especially the Israelis because they where the first to be close to G*d and worship one G*d, second they are polite and hard working citizens but anyone else is welcome as long as they got on with life don't start hating others and making bombs

Yehuda

The duplicity and deviousness of the PLO and of its successors,viz.,the "Palestinian Authority", Hamas, Islamic Jihad et al, has been an open secret since the PLO enunciated its strategy of staged reduction of Israel, slice by salami slice, until the Moslem world would be able to deliver the coup de grace. The PLO openly declared this strategy more than 3 decades ago.
The Israeli "left", however,ignored this duplicity because it suffers from the wishful thinking syndrome. The West ignored it because sacrificing Israel was and is in its eyes a low-cost method of appeasing oil-rich and other jihadist Arabs.

gary ashton

think we will read about this in the newspapers or see the bbc report it? ha, the worlds agenda is clear, israel is just to successful for them, a multicultural society that works, that is strong and righteous, a technologically savvy society that embraces culture and diversity. a population that shares the same vision and destiny. oh dear!
it's everything every where else isn't.
the cowards and hypocrites that deal in its destruction must be pathetic really when you think about it. i feel sorry for them.

gary

Half of the two state solution was accomplished 60 years ago. The phrase "two state solution" implies that Israel doesn't really exist because a Palestinian state doesn't exist.

fish

..it's a final solution. In German: die Endloesung? No! Then the wishes of his people are satisfied. Israelis may live happily on their soil, inside the 67 borders.

Well, I prefer Iran, Hamas etc, who want or think of a one state solution as the second step. A religious state is contrary to enlightment, allways, also in the case of Iran etc. Religion etc are not a matter of the state, but of society.

Seraph

To barackobama who gives us the following choices:

"1 Jordan and Egypt take over the West Bank and Gaza. Both countries have refused.
2 Population movements out of the West Bank. This is a probable source of war.
3 Israel takes over West Bank. This will make Jews a minority in Israel.
4 Let the status quo continue.
Answers please."

There is clearly a fifth option that has worked everywhere it has been tried: Unconditional Surrender.

As the recent events in Sri Lanka, the Russian assault on Chechnya, the Turkish suppression of their Kurdish insurgency and countless other cases demonstrate, it is possible to achieve victory. In fact, only if you are willing to pursue unconditional surrender will your adversary be willing to focus enough to sit down and negotiate with you. Otherwise, all you do is drag out a situation and THAT is what breeds hatred and helps recruit people to the radial's cause.

YA

So Hazlit where is your answer to Linda Smith? Is it only Jewish state that is illegitimate? United Arab Emirates, Syrian Arab Republic, Saudi Arabia, Arabic Republic of Egypt and so on - they are legitimate, eh? It seems like, there is no answer to this question there where you are, at the beacon of justice and legitimacy.

wonderer

Fish thinks Hamas and Iran want a one state solution. No doubt true, but a state where all the Jews have been murdered or driven out.

Even the "moderate" Abu Zaki of Fatah, in the passage quoted by Melanie said, "..we will begin to progress with our own ideology, Allah willing, and drive them out of all of Palestine".

Linda Smith

Dear fish, please could you decode your comment.

matt

i'm in a model UN class and my country is the UK. we are talking about this issue in class now. i was wondering if the UK is in favor of a one state solution, or a two state solution.

just Louise

Meanwhile, the Sunday Telegraph (17 May)reports: 'Mr Obama's hand in confronting Mr Netanyahu was strengthened last week by a new Zogby poll revealing that voters who backed him in the election overwhelmingly support a policy which amounts to "get tough with Israel" - ending illegal Israeli settlements within Palestinian territory and establishing a Palestinian state. Jewish voters, 78 per cent of whom voted for Mr Obama, are among the strongest supporters of the plan....
The Obama administration [is] calling for Israel to declare and give up its weapons arsenal, said to number around 50 warheads. A senior State Department official said the US wants Israel to sign the nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty and commit to disarmament. What he has not done yet, is query the $3 billion in military aid which US taxpayers send Israel every year, although that could yet happen given the straitened times.'
Not looking good, is it?

Michael B

The Sinhalese of Sri Lanka are perhaps the most apt and most illuminating near-parallel to what Israel continues to face in their Sunni and Shi'a Muslim inspired enemies - together with the wide and varied base of western leftward/populist support those Muslim inspired forces receive. (As with Israel, there are even specious and acrimonious archeological disputes within the Sinhalese/Tamil strife, disputes in turn that receive support in western academic circles. Though that is one tell-tale indicator only.)

The Sinhalese have been resolved to withstand the suicide/homicide attacks, the assassinations, the systematic terror, the trafficking (e.g., sex trade, drugs, arms, abductions for ransoms, murder for hire) and other illicit activity, ethnic cleansing, etc. the Tamil terrorists and insurgents have deployed. (The Tamil Tigers were the originators of the suicide/homicide belt, only later adopted by Islamic and Islamicist factions based in Gaza, the West Bank and elsewhere. They also indoctrinate children from the earliest ages and forward into a particularly virulent hatred of the Sinhalese. The parallels are prominent.)

As of this month, May, 2009, the LTTE (Tamil Tigers) may be on the verge of defeat - precisely because of the sustained vision and resolve the Sri Lankan govt. and population in general (including some among the Tamils) have been willing to hold to over the long haul, for more than two decades now.

Israel faces a far more daunting and established set of enemies, a far greater array of strategic and ideological/propagandistic challenges: from the soft left to the hard Left, from Muslim inspired religio-political and ideological support to Islamicist/jihadist inspired militancies. But the lesson is essentially the same: the ability and willingness and resolve to see through the fog of the ideological war and all the propagandistic bombast - on through to a realistically conceived stability and more soundly based peace.

h/t Dissecting Leftism blog

Kiwi

matt wrote: "i'm in a model UN class and my country is the UK. we are talking about this issue in class now. i was wondering if the UK is in favor of a one state solution, or a two state solution."
Surely that's a question better answered by HM's government. However, I am sure most correspondents here would be keen to know the UN position, as revealed to you by your class tutor. Perhaps you can enlighten us?

James

Just proves that if you want understand the Arab/Israeli, conflict, do not waste time with the BBC/Guardian/ Independent et.al. If you want to understand Arab aims, listen to what they say to each other.

barackobama

Shy Guy. Thank you for the correction. I thought the figures looked wrong too.
But what's the alternative to the two-state approach supported by some/quite a lot of Israelis including President Peres?

barackobama

Shy Guy. I checked the story in Inn and found there was something you in turn didn't mention (I relied on the incomplete AFP report):

Quote: 63 percent of rightist respondents, or centrist and leaning towards the right, support the two-state solution, 62 percent of self-defined right-wing Israeli Jews are opposed.End Quote.

So if the rightist and centrists polled represent all rightists and centrists, it would seem that there's a majority there too for the two-state solution. Even 38 per cent of "self-denied, right wing Jews" don't oppose the two-states, according to this poll.
So it seems, from this poll, that there is at least a substantial minority in favour of two-states. It seems that President Barack Obama is also reading Israeli opinion polls which suggest that a large proportion of the Israeli electorate might be persuaded to support two states if the Palestinian state was stripped of the capacity to inflict harm on Israel, which is another way of saying if Palestinians were stripped of the capacity to inflict harm on Israel.
So the Palestinians might get their state if they stop behaving like idiots.

wonderer

barackobama, the trouble is it only needs a handful of Palestinians to behave, as you put it, "like idiots" for enormous loss of life to occur.

There was a near miss in the case of the Ashdod port bombing, when the terrorists intended to cause hundreds of casualties - see /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashdod_Port_attack> .

And once the IDF leave the West Bank, Israel may as well close Tel Aviv Airport. Otherwise, terrorists will be on the hilltops firing missiles at aircraft taking off and landing.

Michael B

wonderer,

Well, agree, but as you are no doubt aware, the history reflects far, far more than "a few idiots," it reflects an on-going and systematic and never interrupted design to eliminate Israel and murder Jews, with an enculturation and indoctrination of hatred from the earliest ages and forward, in all stratas of society - and in a manner that is more pervasive (in fact, far more pervasive and far more widely accepted and far more systematic and institutionalized) than was true in 1930's Nazi Germany.