The Edinburgh Bigotry Festival

hadrian

Mr Loach dares talk about genocide in relation to Palestine. Will he only be delighted when every last Israeli is extinguished? The girl's film should be shown, regardless of this shallow leftist oaf. Will he cry out against Turks for the Armenian oppressions? Not bloody likely.

Sam Armstrong

I see that the lovely leotard-wearing George Galloway is also involved in this disgraceful campaign.

In addition, I find the sentence that begins with: "I am ethnic English, whatever that is" to be racist.

These SPSC people are the enemies of freedom and democracy, on a suicidal power trip.

Jerry

Rational thought is a lost art. It consists of taking into account as much information as is available before reaching a conclusion, and certainly before taking any action. However, rational thought will not win political goals. Those who tilt to the Left have been taught the Marxian principle that goals must be pursued by whatever means is available. If the Left cannot defeat Israel on the battlefield, in the success of their social system, in the liveliness of their culture, they will defeat them through rumor mongering, lying, lying by omission, sarcasm, smirking, and group exercises in schadenfreund. That they create their own special earthly hell is of no consequence to them - only the goal matters.

Yehuda

What happened in Europe in the 1930's, what happened in Europe during the Great Plague in the Middle Ages, what happened in Salem in the 17th century, and ...one could go on.. amply demonstrates that humans of all levels of intelligence, of all levels of sophistication and education, can be barbarically irrational and immoral during certain conjunctions of circumstances. Much of the behaviour during those dark eras also demonstrates that personal gain, material or emotional, is often the motivator to irrational and/or malicious behaviour.
What the decent people of the world need to do is to devise methods of combating the apparently inevitable degeneration of some members of the species into vehicles of satanic maliciousness.

Jenny

I know many people who work in the arts. Their knowledge of the Gazans' jihad is at best patchy and is inverse in proportion to their desire to rant about it.

If I ever do meet anyone who supports Israel, they keep it very close to their chest. This is the new McCarthyism: "Are you now or have you ever been a supporter of Israel?"

When you're dealing with artistic cliques the answer you give to that question is very important because if you give the wrong one you can almost certainly expect to be shoved to one side.

Daibhidh

Ken Loach's tiresome brand of leftist 'politics' (read pathology)particularly where understanding Israel is concerned is typical of the playground level that it has descended to. He's made excellent thought provoking films e.g. Sweet Sixteen and My Name is Joe. On this note he should stick to where his talent and instincts lie: indulging fiction in film and not on real issues that he's ignorant of. He's nothing more than a pampered Western pseudo revolutionary.
Shame on the Edinburgh authorities for capitulating to ignorance and bullying. I take it that Loach would also make the same demand if a Sri Lankan grant was involved? Hardly. Frankly, I would've told Loach and his ilk to get lost.

Roy

The same methodical denigrations were placed on white South Africans before the unquestionable turn-around in circumstances in that country. Normal every day people, if they were white, were seemingly responsible for all the apartheid and discriminations slandered on them by the world’s media and so the world at large. When all power is eventually endowed on the indigenous people we start to see an improvement in this, but also see a slow deterioration in the countries political nous, the slow but sure export of competent people as their freedoms are expunged and their families despair. Many western countries all too eager to lap up this well educated and professional cream, these unappreciated that are moving on if they can, unavoidably leaving their life’s assets to the new administration. Forcefully contributing to the countries temporary financial upswing, just as the Nazis creamed off all they could before delegating the Jews to their death. This is the scenario that all too many of today’s radicals with their associated left wing media would delegate Israel.

Paul

No doubt that organisers made the decision in fear of the inevitable violent protests that would follow if this poor film-maker attended.

This country used to be great and proud. Now it just capitulates in craven fear to the wicked lies and lunacy of the extreme left.

May God forgive this nation and give us again people in positions of power and authority who have the eyes to see what is happening and the spine to stand up for what is right and true.

Sweetie

Once again, a gross example of jew and israel hatred. I wonder what Loach thought about the thousands of innocent men women and children (who were not all jewish or israeli) who were maimed or killed by murderous muslim suicide bombers. These people were not involved in a war environment but were merely going about their normal activities.

phil

what a sad commentary on our once great nation when things like this are allowed to happen .Free speech allows loach to say these things but responsibility and common sense needs to be exercised too when words like his are propogated .We seem to be sinking into a morass where the words of the loony left are allowed and the right wing which I abhor just as much are not ,both are deplorable but one seems to be fashionable -how sad

gary ashton

ha what a terrible state of affairs, the people behind this decision need to relocate to syria or iran and then they can live the lives they want. hypocrites!

stanley Jerusalem

The subject matter varies but, as always, Oscar Wilde was correct. 'Yesterday it was illegal, today it is tolerated and tomorrow it will be compulsory.'
We will all be taken to hell in a handcart by the Politically Correct and the Human Rights morons who drive our media and our NGO's.And who will save us? No-one has yet stood up to sound the clarion call of rationality. Absobloominlutely no-one.

Original Tony

Maybe the real people who are spineless are those of us who do not stand up and shout down this disgusting, anti-semetic bias that is springing up everywhere. Supporters of Israel need to take a leaf from the tactics used by Israel's enemies and turn it on them.

Maybe we too should make loud, aggressive noises and shout lies from the rooftops..it seems the only way to be heard these days.

Jeremy

Actually, I think the festival should be boycotted - but boycotted for its bullying persecution of a single independent filmmaker who happens to be jewish. What a disgusting thing for a film festival to have done, and what a betrayal of the freedom of artistic expression. I neither know nor care what manner of bitterness it is that motivates Ken Loach, but he has done his country and the arts a profound disservice by fostering this grotesque act. As a result, I would urge fair-minded people everywhere to stay away from the Edinburgh International Film Festival.

Suffolkbor

Ken Loach is the ultimate middle class Marxist prat .

He is searingly anti British as personified in films like The Wind That Shakes The Barley and others among his output .

Ken Loach and other left wing reptiles like Galloway and Livingstone purport to speak for working class British people which of course they do not .

Loach is fairly typical of someone brought up in a well off background who has never got so much as a grain of dirt beneath his fingernails in his life and who had the privilege of going to university at a time when only people from his self same background had such an opportunity and who then turn against their own country .

As for be an anti Israeli bigot that comes with the territory for the likes of Loach although the question has to be asked why he has so much influence at the festival .

The person who said "Ethnic English Whatever That Is " is a perfect example of leftist brainwashing .

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Lefties hate the white working class and the Jewish, lefties don't want to know and understand their real enemy are not Israels, white working class or Hindus, their one and only enemy they have and "love" is Islamic exterimists, some of the Scottish lefties seem to forget this but we all remember when a muslim try to blow up GLASCOW airport and it was not long ago, Helloooooo...

Wilhelm

Ken Laoach lives in a townhouse in Bath, far, far, far away from the multicultural ghetto.

Funny that, isnt it ?

K Mackay

What in the name of heaven has 'multicultural ghetto' got to do with anything discussed?

Wilhelm

Well Mr McKay

Im very glad you asked me that question, it has everything to do with it. Ken Loach pretends to be the chum of the working classes and ethnic immigrants, but he sure aint living with them, thats for sure.

Loach, Galloway, Madonna and Annie Lennox are always going on about the poor but dont live with them, Mother Theresa on the other hand lived with the poor, she wasnt living in the south of France.

K Mackay

Is that so Wilhelm?

Well I do live amongst the working classes and I agree with them on everything they say. Many Scottish people like myself have been for years past increasingly frustrated by Israels lack of will to permit the Palestinians to have a viable state. In the last three years with the Israeli state terrorism towards both Lebanon and Gaza I have been sickened at their treatment of their neighbours and by our governments failure to really condemn such atrocities, some of which, whatever you apologists say to the contrary, can only be termed war crimes. And more and more people are becoming aware of the injustice and inhumanity and also becoming so very tired of the knee-jerk cry of 'anti-semitism' to any type of criticism of Israel.

I am old enough to have boycotted and campaigned against South African apartheid when Nelson Mandela (that now universally considered saint-like figure) was still on Robben Island and still vilified and when voices like yours still condemned any form of sanction against the regime which held him there. People like me didn't listen to your type of cat calls then and we won't listen to them now and eventually your laager mentality will be overcome. We will keep boycotting Israeli goods individually, keep pressing for academic boycotts, keep pressing our governments to do more to bring about an equitable fully two state solution to your region. And voices like mine, including those like mine within Israel, will succeed eventually, just as we did with South African apartheid, just as they did with American segregation, just as they did abolishing the slave trade, just as they did for all human injustice throughout history. You are on the losing side.
And the designation is Mrs.

K Mackay

Does my voice count because I live amongst the working class then? Or doesn't it count because I say things critical of Israel?

How many more of my posts won't be printed I wonder? How much for free speech and anti-boycott now then? This blog needs more alternative voices, and the powers that be don't seem willing to allow them to be heard.

Ronnie

Thanks Wilhelm :-)

Earl Mott strikes again.

Karen

I think the shock is more with censorship than simply him being against Israel and the festival capitulation.
A very interesting discussion about this can be found here:

http://www.pandalous.com/nodes/ken_loach_is_demanding

jiminycricket

Mckay: Charity begins at home buddy. Forget about the so-called palestinians and their ruthlessly cultivated victimology, and instead concern yourself over the rampant alcoholism, domestic violence and drug addiction that is crippling Scotlsnd.

Wilhelm

A neat little trick that Ken Loach does is he doesnt hire professional actors when making his depressing kitchen sink, garbage films, saves him paying them a lot of money.

stanley Jerusalem

Oh and by the way, with regard to 'Saint' Nelson Mandela, anyone with 400,000 hand grenades in their garden shed couldn't be all that innocent,could they?

Vanesa

Agree with K Mackay, you are not the only one - it must feel good when so called 'journalist' have the power to print twisted ‘truths’ and not allow dissent. Yeah, so much for free speech!

peter

Is Israel still prosecuting the Palestinian film maker Mo Bakri over his film Jenin Jenin which describes Israel's barbarity in the Jenin Siege of 2002?

Linda Smith

K Mackay: We will keep ....pressing our governments to do more to bring about an equitable fully two state solution to your region"
People like you persistently argue from false assumptions. The "Palestinian" Arabs represented by Fatah and Hamas do not want "an equitable fully two state solution to ?your? region". Fatah and Hamas are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Hamas is committed to world wide genocide of Jews.

I suggest you start demonstrating against Fatah and Hamas and calling for your government to boycott them.

Vanesa

Of course Melanie, here are some of the “left-wing bigots who hate Israel and tell defamatory lies about its behaviour”:
UN SC Resolutions: 242 (1967) 252 (1968); 267 (1969); 271 (1969); 298 (1971); 338 (1973); 476 (1980); 478 (1980); 681 (1990); 1322 (2000); 1397 (2002); 1402 (2002); 1405 (2002); 1435 (2002); 1544 (2004); 446 (1979); 452 (1979); 465 (1980); 471 (1980);1544 (2004)
UN General Assembly resolution: 62/108 (2008); 58/292 (2004); 62/181 (2007); 61/184 (2006); 59/251 (2004); 58/292 (2004); 62/108 (2007); 62/109 (2007):
International Court of Justice ruling on the wall on 9 July 2004

No only is Israel in breach of all this UN resolutions and but is also in contravention of the Hague Regulations: Article 43; 55; 49(6) and the Fourth Geneva Convention: Article 27; 53

You say “Yet simply because she was Israeli, and had received a grant of £300 from the Israel embassy to enable her to travel to Scotland”. That is your twisted version of the truth. Ken Loach asked for the money taken by the EIFF from the Israeli Embassy to be returned. That money gave the Israeli Embassy the right to be cited in the EIFF brochure as programme supported. That is the issue.

Israel is in breach of countless UN resolutions, are you going to deny this as well? The Israeli state wants to do ‘business as usual’, it wants to promote itself. Well, no, it wasn’t business as usual for Apartheid South Africa; it should not be business as usual for Israel, until they respect human rights for all and international law.

Sir Jeremy Isaacs, Melanie Philips, Alex Massie and co. not only you are confusing the issue on purpose but you expose the emptiness of your ‘arguments’.
The President of the UN General Assembly says it very well (of course for Melanie he would also be a “left-wing bigot” as Desmond Tutu, Mandela and others who dare to speak the truth): http://www.un.org/ga/president/63/statements/agendaitem16241108.shtml

Alf Tupper

Vanesa.

You seem to place a lot of faith in the integrity of the UN and its freedom from bias.

stanley Jerusalem

Vanesa
May 21st, 2009 5:23pm
The UN in all it's splendour managed to pass a resolution of a majority of its members at the time equating a 2,000 year old longing for a return of Jewish people to the Land of their Fathers, otherwise known as Zionism, to racism. Thus proving that they might, given adequate incentive and prejudice, vote that black was white and night, day. Yet you have the temerity to list UN resolutions castigating Israel with nary a word criticising Arab atrocities both in Israel and worldwide aimed at Jewish or Israeli targets. Oh I'm sure if pushed you might find expressions like 'regrettable' come to mind but always with the caveat that they are poor oppressed terr.. sorry, refugees.

Archie

His films are rubbish, too!

Archie

Willhelm: don't forget that ghastly Billy Bragg!

Archie

Ah yes, the UN. That's the place where Third World "leaders" who ban free speech in their countries demand to be heard!

Worried

@K Mackay (Mrs). You talk utter nonsense. Israel is a democracy with such an open attitude, a typical day in the Knesset is like watching Boris dealing with his staff in London. Everyone has a different opinion and there is a lot of arm waving. (A good thing.) The country contributes masses to the world for it's tiny size, employs and empowers many rational Palestinians (whose voices remain silent unless you go live there and experience daily life), and the country is well managed enough to take care of it's people (despite the threats to it's existence from dry weather to surrounding enemies.) The Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere are in the situation they are in because their leaders like it that way - just like Mr. Kim in North Korea. Each time the Palestinians are given a (fair) chance at a deal, they either accept and then ask for more (just like the Taliban did in Pakistan a few weeks ago), or reject what is offered. The Palestinians are used as a tool by Jew (not Israel) hating regimes and individuals around the world. If it wasn't them, it would be something else. Proof? Those four thugs who were arrested in New York today who (for some reason probably associated with indoctrination at their local 'Mosque') blamed and insulted Jews for their thwarted deeds. (Even connecting Jews with the war in Afghanistan, that has nothing to do with Jews or Israel, and is - no matter your view - an oil grab by the West to stop nations further East getting it.) And how dare you compare Israel to South Africa! The Israeli policy is all about stopping suicide bombers - not punishing or harming the hard working Palestinian individual.

What do you think will happen to the Palestinians if Isreal is to vanish? (Answer: They will go back to living a way of life far worse and more medieval than they do today.) But you know what, hopefully, once genuine peace does 'break out', and Israel can blossom, the economic growth will spread across the region in the apres oil boom offered by a global solar economy.

Augustus

The lies perpetrated against Israel and the Zionists are successful because of two unfortunate relities: If you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth, and the world has been conditioned to cover up the murder and destruction of the terrorists in favour of its eagerness to believe the worst about the Jewish people. Joseph Goebbels would be gratified to see to what lengths anti-Semitism is still live today.

C. Gee

The film, "Surrogate", will be shown and "Embassy of Israel" is still listed as a supporter of the EIFF in its brochure published on its website - even if the embassy grant to the festival was returned. So I am not sure that this is the ideological triumph for the anti-Zionists that they hoped it might be.
This is not to say that this episode is not yet another example of what a mean-spirited, uncivil, irrational, ill-educated, snarling bully the British lefty artistic and intellectual elite has become.
And there's not much to be said for its talent, either.
And singular

Leslie

I see that some people are still bringing up the Jenin "massacre" lie.
Do some research,please,Peter.

Gil

Mrs. Mackay, it appears that your posts were indeed published so do calm down. Also, how long are you going to keep saying that every criticism of Israel is seen as antisemitism by supporters of Israel? That is a clear lie and an attempt to shut down the debate, a case - certainly in your case- of the pot calling the kettle black.

And stop pretending that the working class support your views on Israel, they don't. Only pseudo-liberals do.

Indigo121

What is wrong with Britain? Was it always like that?
I'm asking seriously.

Dave S

I think my cats would leave home if a Loach film came on the TV.
Forget about him Melanie. He is of no account and will have no effect on anyone but his fellow travellers into mindless gibberings.

Elizabeth

We understand and support Israel's defensive actions to survive against the constant bombings from Hamas. We will stand with Israel. We are non-Jewish and Christians. We want to be well informed in order to voice our support for Israel's input into the cultural recognition in the world. At least they will not be ignored except by the ignorant with no fiber of understanding the rights of the Jewish people. Immeasurable and indescribable gifts to the world. Where would humankind be without Israel? There needs to be boycotts of the works of Ken Loach and his fellow co-horts. We are educating ourselves in all matters that concern Isreal. Don't turn your backs!

David

Gil,

Way to go! Couldn't agree more!

C. Gee

Indigo121:
You ask "What is wrong with Britain? Was it always like that?"
Socialism.
The corruption set in after WWII. The body politic is now gangrenous.

K Mackay

Gil: No, most of my views were NOT published. Only a couple of the now many posts I have made did make it through. Others who also voice criticism of Israeli policies face the same thing. Yet there is a plethora of pro-Israeli voices like your own. I do not find the proportion for and against to be the same on here as in the country as a whole. And you are offensive against the working class to claim all the working class support such right-wing politics as you try do.

And I say most criticism of Israel is called ant-semitism, because that's what most of those who wholeheartedly support the Israeli state do say almost continually to me and others. Being called an anti-semite as I have been has been THEIR attempt to shut down my debate.

Or on this blog what they do is just not print.

K Mackay

worried: The Germany which brought Hitler to power was also a democracy, so you argue from a very weak base if you claim democracy is the be all and end all. And those Knesset members who are Arab do not agree with your views of inclusion. Try listening to them sometime, instead of me.

Yes, the coutry does employ Palestinians, including the doctor who works as a fertility expert in an Israeli hospital and was such a long-time spokesperson for peace between both sides - yet he lost three of his daughters during the Gaza offensive, was abused on camera by strident Israelis in the hospital just after it happened, they supporting what their government had said - ie., that there were rockets coming from within the building and they had warning - both of which he denied.

You try to bring such a lot of irrelevant issues. And "how dare you compare Israel to South Africa! The Israeli policy is all about stopping suicide bombers - not punishing or harming the hard working Palestinian individual" The hard working Palestinian individual has sometimes hours to wait at roadblocks and checkpoints built by Israel on their own land. Thats freedom of movement to get to work or school or prayer made more difficult for a start. Then there is the blockade in Gaza, cutting the amount of equipment or produce that can travel freely. How do any of that support the hardworking Palestinian.

K Mackay

Gil: No, most of my views were NOT published - so far the going rate is 1 in 7 - but never mind I will keep trying, after all it has gone up to that. If it goes down to 1 in 100 at least I know I'm ensuring someone at the Spectator is kept doing something for their money.

Gil

Calm down Mrs. MacKay. We have all now had the chance see your views. Er...nothing but criticism and attacks on 'them' who are trying to prevent you from posting.

And being oh so chi-chi 'right on' BBC loving, Annie Lennox worshipping, does not make one working class.

You know nothing about Israel apart from what Lauren Booth has told you.

Adam B.

Mackay, just so you don't elaborate further on your victim complex, several of my posts have not made it through. I am a supporter of Jewish people, unlike you.

phil

k mckay "Many Scottish people like myself have been for years past increasingly frustrated by Israel's lack of will to permit the Palestinians to have a viable state"-------------

May I ask you how frustrated you have been over the years that the desire of the Jewish people to have their own state for two thousand years has been ignored and how bad do you feel that the result has been the massacre of so many millions of them ? How many protests have you made about that?-How do you feel about the many"Palestinians" living in Israel who live in peace and with rights to a proper life with health care and schooling and are not under any threat from the Jewish population ,nor are they threatened with expulsion -I suspect that the "many Scots " that you quote represent only a few left wingers who do not like Jews and probably have never met any -I am sorry that you do not get much published here ,could it be that what you are writing is rather nasty or possibly untrue ?I hope Pete will allow you to answer me as your thoughts will no doubt be illuminating .

Adam B.

Ken Loach is a Communist whose films are in essence works of propaganda. Whether its Britain bashing in the Wind that Shakes the Barley, to whitewashing Soviet involvement in central America in Carla's Song, he is a propagandist, with ne'er a bad word to say about any of the Socialist "paradises" across the globe. Ask him about the Gulag Archipelago of Soviet concentration camps or the political prisoners in Cuba.

What a hypocrite.

Mailman

Gil,

You may want to do some checking around Adolf. It was Hindenburg who appointed Adolf as Chancellor, who then appointed himself as head of state after Hindenburgs death.

So do please pay attention, if you should ever try to compare Demcratic Israel with dictatorship Nazi Germany, do at least attempt to inform yourself before making such ignorant statements in the future.

BTW, how many Jews are in Parliament in Iran? What about Saudi Arabia? How many were in Saddams Government?

Re your comment about the hard working Palestinian having to wait hours at roadblocks and checkpoints...well I dont know about you but I prefer someone having to wait hours at roadblocks or checkpoints than someone else having to die because a suicide bomber just detonated in a restaurant.

The uncontestable fact for you is that the security barrier has worked. Suicide bombers are no longer detonating on public transport or in restaurants.

The reality is, if Palestinians would step away from violence the wall would come down and prosperity would florish in their lands. The fact is, Palestinians are incapable of stepping away from violence because they have been indoctrinated to hate Jews.

Until Palestinian society changes, there will be no peace in the Middle East.

Thirdly, if Im not mistaken Gaza also has a border with Egypt. One that you and the BBC seems to have missed somehow...yet it is only Israel that is held accountable for material that cant get in to Gaza (which is then promptly coopted by Hamas to kill Jews).

Perhaps if you stopped blaiming the victim (Israel) and concentrated on the guilty (Palestinian terrorism), which might actually start to get somewhere in this world!

Finally...link to palestinian doctor or it never happened (I know, Im a bit of a pedant like that, demanding evidence to support statements you make as fact. I can be picky like that!).

Mailman

Gil,

My sincerest apologies, my comment was aimed at K Mackay, not you.

Regards

Mailman

keith bryer

"Middle class Pratt". "Pampered Western pseudo revolutionary."
"This country used to be great and proud. Now it just capitulates in craven fear to the wicked lies and lunacy of the extreme left".

These are just a few of the phrases in this string I have read today. It gladdens my heart to know that there are still intelligent, articulate people who recognize BS when they see or hear it. All is not yet lost. We are not alone.

Susan Hill

This is the sort of control exerted by extreme fascist and communist regimes who would have guard even over people`s thoughts. This sort of posturing by the left over everything they think none of us should support is disgusting. It reminds me of all those idiot actors who used to refuse to eat south african apples and once stopped a production at the Royal Shakespeare Theatre because it was supported by Barclays Bank who had S African investments.
It is also posturing which is entirely self-regarding and self-flaunting. 'Look at me and my impeccable conscience. !'The Edinburgh Festival has absolutely no business to involve itself. He can do what he likes.
It`s also anti-semitism of course but I wonder if he would accept that ?

Penny

I've been posting on Mel's blog on and off for about 6months.

I try to be polite and,as far as I know, have never written anything that could be construed as being offensive or against any law. However, like Adam B, several of my posts have not made it through.

As nothing I wrote was worthy of censorship, I've just assumed there was a logical reason - a technical glitch, an oversight, the mods missing it or perhaps they'd just gone home...who knows? I haven't a clue how these things work, but it's a little paranoid to jump the gun and assume you're being shut up for expressing a view.

I've seen some really vitriolic points expressed here; I've been on the end of one that was just appalling but they've got through.

Penny

Just a thought about the security wall and Gaza in general. Out of curiosity, does anyone know how many Israeli Arabs are trying to go over the wall or otherwise get into Gaza?

It would give an indication of whether Israeli Arabs prefer living in Israel or are desperate to be ruled by Hamas or Fatah.

By the way - Kuwait ethnically cleansed 400,000 Palestinians whilst Jordan killed 20,000 - in one day. Syria's record with the MB Palestinians and Egypt's record with the Yeminites is similarly appalling.

The surrounding Arab nations don't actually want the Palestinians. In part because they want to continue enforcing this refugee status in order to use the people as a weapon against Israel. Some don't want them because....well....they just don't want them. Google the recent statements by the King of Jordan who doesn't want them because they would "change the character and identity of his country."

Pete Hoskin

Penny: if you feel comments are getting lost, you can always email me on phoskin @ spectator.co.uk and I'll do my best to look into individual cases.

Penny

"The hard working Palestinian individual has sometimes hours to wait at roadblocks and checkpoints built by Israel on their own land. Thats freedom of movement to get to work or school or prayer made more difficult for a start. Then there is the blockade in Gaza, cutting the amount of equipment or produce that can travel freely. How do any of that support the hardworking Palestinian."

Well, you're right - it doesn't help but I think you have to look a little more closely at the reasons why the wall and so on is there. It's not 'apartheid' as some would claim - that's silly.
The fact of the matter is that some people were crossing into Israel for one reason - to kill. I narrowly escaped one such incident myself when I was there. Any country threatened in this manner - and truly, you might want to visit so that you can actually experience it - is going to defend itself. It's not as if those intending to bomb are obvious and can be screened out - and so all the people have to be checked.

Heaven forbid that we should ever experience this in the UK, but if we did, how would you want the government to protect you? Look at what we have to go through at airports these days or, to a lesser extent, places like Wembley Stadium!! And our situation is nowhere near as dire.

The problem is coming from those who want to kill in this manner. I don't think you can blame Israel for protecting itself.

Where I think your point is valid is that the ordinary Palestinians are suffering - but I think you have to take an honest look at their leaders. Are you aware that Arafat built a casino in Jericho with money he said was for a hospital? Money that people around the world probably gave him in sympathy for the Palestinians. Worse, that casino was opposite a refugee camp. He owned a private jet and his wife's spending sprees were the stuff of legend. Arafat is just one - look closely at the others.

After Gaza, Hamas levelled very serious accusations at Israel, including the word 'massacre'. And, as you know, Gaza received considerable sympathy and billions in aid, Yet, on the day that Al-Bashir was indicted on charges of of genocide in Darfur, and on the day he threw out aid agencies, leaving thousands without the medical care and water supplies that they desperately needed, what did Hamas do? They popped two representatives on a plane and flew them out to show their solidarity and support for this man. These leaders often play us like fiddles, I'm afraid.

Perhaps read Khalid Abu Toameh's work - he's a Palestinian journalist who worked in Gaza during Arafat's time. I find him fair - he criticises who he thinks deserves it, be that the UK, USA, Israel or Palestinians.

Penny

Cheers, Pete!

It hasn't really bothered me. I've probably just been waffling anyway);

War is Peace

Just a point there, Penny. You stated: "...you have to look a little more closely at the reasons why the wall and so on is there..."
You explained the reasons for the wall, but not the 'so on'. The so on consists of settlements, house demolitions, settler-only roads, and many checkpoints within the West Bank itself, crippling internal travel, institution-building, and economic development. The security argument doesn't cover these issues.

In anticipation of the usual retorts from some posters here, you can make your own assumptions about my degree of interest in other conflicts around the world, my opinion of Hamas, or even whether I am anti-semitic or not. I don't care. I ask this question to the impassioned supporters of Israel rather than the bigots.

Stephen Rothbart

Did anyone see Noa and Mira Awad singing on behlf of Israel in the Eurovision song contest last weekend? Two women singing in public, one an Israeli Jew and the other an Arab. Singing, 'there must be another way.'

Can any of you Israeli haters tell me which other country in the current Middle East would have a Jew and an Arab singing side by side on TV? Perhaps Lebanon, if the Jew had suicidal tendancies.

If anyone is going to harm Mira Awad, you can bet it would be a fellow Muslim.

This to me says it all. All most Israelis want is the peace to be left alone and get on with their lives. Apart from a few loonies in the settlers' camps who see some land as the Biblical right.

And even that land most Israelis would give up if someone could guarantee that no one would attack them from there like Hamas and Hezbollah did as soon as Israel ceded over the lands they had won in exchange for a promise.

How do people like Loach deal with this? With twisted logic and hatred, that's how.

I have circulated to everyone I know who cares for justice and for peace to boycott Loach's new film about Cantona. So far I have had a good response. Hopefully those that disagree with hsi bigotry will urge their friends to do the same.

ahad ha'amoratsim

Tell me, K McKay, which came first: restrictions on Palestinian movement, or shooting and bombing attacks against Israeli civilians, with special emphasis on women and children, by terrorists operating out of Gaza and the West Bank? The security barrier, or Arab suicide bombers blowing up Jewish civilians in restaurants, supermarkets, buses, discos and religious halls? Do you have any sympathy for the victims of these attacks? How about restriction of the movement of ordinary Israelis, who must wait in line to be wanded and scanned whenever they go into a store, an office or a public place?

If you are the age you say, you are old enough to remember that Israel acquired these territories in a defensive war against better armed and more numerous forces of larger and more populous enemy nations who had pledged to destroy Israel. You may also recall that shortly after the war, Israel offered to withdraw from every square cm. (except Jerusalem, which Jordan had occupied illegally for the past 19 years, after illegally expelling all Jewish residents, and thereafter illegally barring any and all Jews from entering). Do you remember the response of the Arab world? No peace with Israel, no negotiation with Israel and no recognition of Israel.

Israel has done more in the past 16 years to pave the way for a Palestinian state than any Arab country -- or the PA -- has done in the past 100 years.

ahad ha'amoratsim

Actually, War is Peace, security DOES answer the settlements, the Israeli-only roads (not "settler only" - they are open to all Israelis, Jewish or Arab, and settler or dweller within the Green Line), the checkpoints and even the house demolitions.

The terrorist attacks began decades before there were settlements. 95% of the settlements are within 5 miles of the Green Line. Total setttlements occupy about 5% of the captured territory. The earliest settlements were build on high strategic points overlooking roads, at points that Arabs had frequently used to ambush Israeli motorists with guns, molotovs or boulders, former Syrian artillery bases that for 2 decades had shelled Israeli farms, or areas that could be (and had been) used as attack routes by the Jordanian or Syrian armies.

The checkpoints did not go up overnight. They were a response to terrorists inflitrating from Arab villages in the West Bank and murdering Jewish civilians.

The house demolitions were a carryover of British law and I believe (but I may be wrong) of Ottoman law before that. It's hard to deter someone who is willing to die in the course of slaughtering innocent civilians. And people who do die that way are often encouraged before and celebrated after by their families. The demolitions are meant to make the would-be murderer think about the consequences to his surviving family. There has been more than one documented case of a family tipping off the authorities to a planned attack in order to preserve their home from demolition. Harsh? Yes. Harsher than letting innocents be murdered?

Leya Alsousani

Stephen Rothbart, I agree with you, if you see a muslim women get hurt it is not from the Jewish, Christians, Zulus, Buddhist, or atheist but it is from muslim men or people, this is the biggest problem, I am muslim woman feminist I understand my culture and religion because of my experiences
K Mackay, thanks for supporting us I understand you are very liberal, but you have to understand muslims don't have war with only Jewish or Americans but with themselves as well, are you with me K Mackay? are you willing to support muslim women who is getting hurt, abuse, disrespect or you are willing to support those machos or machismo muslim men like the hammas etc?

Please let me know, thanks

Bill Ducker

The film should be shown. I ask the Directors of the Festival to allow it to go ahead as had been planned.
Please show compassion to this young film maker allow her to show her work here."Righteousnes exalts a nation"

Katie

This opening out by Ken Loach of anything remotely connected to Jews to the Israeli/Palestinian issue continued in another vein on this week's Newsnight Review on BBC2 Friday 22 May.

The usual bunch of nincompoops were discussing "Inglourious Basterds", Quentin Tarantino's anti-Holocaust film, when Guardian writer Sarfraz Manzoor came out with a line that told you everything you need to know about him and so much about the BBC that loves putting him on shows like this: "I did wonder how it would play in Ramallah."

Excuse me?

Watch it on the iplayer at 5mins 25 seconds in:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00kmlzn/Newsnight_Review_22_05_2009/

My jaw was in my lap. I'm forced on pain of going to prison to pay this man to say this sort of thing via my licence fee.

What do I do next time a Qassam rocket lands in Israel killing people? Wonder how it plays in Ramallah - and then what? Adopt that as my reaction?

Unbelievable.

Adam B.

Katie, I noticed that throwaway comment as well. So there you have it, all artistic endeavours which may involve a Jewish subject needs to pass the acid test of "how it would play in Ramallah." Ironic when you consider that a book such as The Diary of Anne Frank is banned in most of the Arab world. Perhaps we should ban it as well, in case it offends the anti-Semites here.

Schindler's List was banned in Malaysia as being "Zionist propaganda." If relatively "liberal" Malaysia is like that, it is quite clear that any film with a Jewish subject matter (unless Jews are depicted as drinking the blood of children) wouldn't be shown in Ramallah anyway.

You're right - unbelievable is the word.

phil

it seems to me k mckay has no answers ,only accusations -sad

wonderer

ahad ha'amoratsim, when you say "Israeli-only roads", do you mean branch or spur roads leading into Jewish settlements/communities? When I was taken from Jerusalem to Psagot last December, most of the journey was on a high quality main road used by both vehicles with Israeli reg'n plates and others with Palestinian Authority plates, though in the case of those with Israeli plates you wouldn't know which were driven by Jews or Israeli Arabs. I understand that such roads bypass Palestinian towns for a number of good reasons.

There was a minor road leading off the main road into Psagot on which I saw only Israeli plates, though I understand that in less turbulent times this road would have been used by Palestinians carrying out work in the Psagot community.

John Edwards

I notice that a few days ago a Palestinian Literary Arts Festival in East Jerusalem was closed down at gunpoint by the Israeli military.

Melanie Phillips of course has nothing to say about that but it illustrates perfectly why the return of the sponsorship money to the Israeli Embassy wss entirely justified.