Another axis of evil

Original Tony

Mel...this is an awesome revelation and is also uplifting to hear what Iranians think of Hamas.

I am longing to read how left-wing posters on this blog will explain this away?

It's not just Israel that finds it hard to deal with 'this arrogant race' but Iranians as well!

Surely Obama can't remain so blind? What is his true agenda?

Miranda Rose Smith

Its not surprising to me that Hezbollah is helping Iran.

Mailman

Come on, Barry knows what he is doing. After all, he is so intelligent and all that.

There is of course an interesting comparison that can be made here.

In the 80's President Reagan was only too happy to put the boot in to Communists when they ruthlessly attacked polish civilians. YET here we have an american President who is conspicuous by his absence.

Where Reagan was only too willing to come out on the side of the Polish people, Barry on the other hand has kept quiet.

Did American support of the Poles hinder the Solidarity movement? No...so there is no reason to believe that American support for Iranian protesters will hinder their drive for freedom.

If anything, Barry's absence is only strengthening the Mullahs hold as they can see how weak this president is.

The reality is this. What the world needs right now is a strong American President. Unfortunately we dont have a strong American President.

MV

Worth reading
http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2009/06/16/are-you-ready-for-war-with-demonized-iran/

Augustus

"Mark my words, it will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy...Remember I said it standing here if you don't remember anything else I said."
-Joe Biden, October, 2008

sean

"Worth reading
http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2009/06/16/are-you-ready-for-war-with-demonized-iran/"

... is not at all worth reading. Perhaps you got the Spectator mixed up with the New Statesmen...

Ronnie

If this is true then it is an error on the part of Hangmejacketup as it will weaken whatever popular support he has, within Iran, for supporting Hamas and also Hizbollah.

When the tide turns, errors start to accumulate.

MV

sean
I think you'll find that Chronicles (and Mr Roberts) are representative of a venerable conservative tradition of a kind not found at the NS (or, admittedly, in the not-at-all conservative Spectator). Your attitude, refusal to consider arguments and general lack of knowledge is indicative of the quality of debate here though.

Sam Armstrong

My heart goes out to the people revolting in Tehran. How awful Obama and the current policies of the West must look to them.

Frank P

sean (12.15pm)

Indeed so; and did you notice that the Professor who wrote the piece in question is a ringer for Jummah Cahtuh? He could be his love child I suppose, both through appearance and political proclivity. Must watch that MV person (pronounced poison). I think it has previous for misinformation.

Chris 9N

I can't comment on whether or not Hamas is involved in Tehran (though one would assume they'd be more concerned with the crisis in their own territory).

But is the basic proposition - Israeli newspaper with anti-Arab bias cites TWO protesters making bald assertions that Palestinians are in Tehran and therefore states that as the truth?

Journalistic integrity at its best. Well done Melanie.

steve

Sorry, but Iranians are quite capable of beating and killing other Iranians without any help from Hamas or Hezebollah. These allegations are silly. How would members of Hamas even get to Iran? The one sure way to truly inflame the situation would be for Arabs to be brought into the streets of Iran to attack protesters.

Paul

And starts the line (see some posts above) that his story can't be true because it appeared in a Jewish newspaper. No consideration given to the fact that the paper is part of a free society and bears a responsibility for what it prints.

There also seems to be a suggestion that Isreals grip on Gaza is so wickedly strong that poor old Hamas can't get to Iran in anycase.

Interesting responses indeed.

Mike

steve: I'm agreeing with you 100% so hopefully the Moderator(s)will let this through.....for a change!

The only point I would add is that there shouldn't be any interference or intervention by the US as implied by arch neo-con John Bolton yesterday.

Note the guarded, careful comments by the US President yesterday.

Penny

Chris - I agree with your point about there being only one source of information in Mel's article - although to be fair, there are some that will happily leap on a hint of a rumour in order to condemn Israel, much less a story in a national newspaper:). Still, we should not follow suit and further evidence would be necessary to confirm this story.

That said, the possible presence of Hamas/Hezbollah in Iran is unlikely to have anything whatsoever to do with Iran's inabiltity to cope and/or a need to draft in external forces.

Iran is, without a doubt, a supporter of both Hizbollah and Hamas, having sent both funds and manpower to them in the past. It is therefore likely that if these two factions have a presence in Iran during the current unrest, it will be in the form of 'brotherhood' and as a gesture of solidarity.

Such was the case on the day that Al-Bashir was indicted for genocide and subsequently booted out 13 aid agencies: Hamas sent representatives to Sudan in a show of support for him and against the ICC.

Gil

Chris9N, so 2 eyewitnesses are not enough for you. How many would convince you, then? 4? 8?

Do tell what passes for credibility in your eyes and your methodology.

And when is the Left together with all the luvvies going to demonstrate against the brutality? Where's Tony Benn? Alexi Sayle? that bird from the Eurythmics?

sooli

I can't bring myself to believe this, it makes no sense; the Iranians don't need extra man-power, and certainly not for civil unrest. The source is fishy (JP).

Brian Moshe

The presence of Hamas in Iran terrorising and beating Iranian protesters is to me wholly believable.

Germany and Italy sent thugs into Spain during the Spanish Civil War and the British Left had no trouble believing that.

In recent years we've seen Irish Republicans fighting in Colombia and plenty of Muslims of various nationalities killing innocent people in Europe, the USA and all over the Asian continent and North Africa.

The idea that somehow the Iranian protesters wouldn't have any foreign Muslims helping to put down their protests is sheer stupidity or sheer naivity or both.

My heart is with the Iranian millions who are protesting and with those being imprisoned and killed for their courageous rejection of the obscene Ahmadinejad and the theocracy.

Ian C

How would members of Hamas even get to Iran?

From their training camp in Iran it would only be down the road. Open your eyes.Oh, and your mind - this time to the possibility that there are bad Palestinians who would do these sort of things for their paymasters. In the real world that most of us occupy it would be the sort of thing that happens.

MV

Frank P writes:
"sean (12.15pm)

Indeed so; and did you notice that the Professor who wrote the piece in question is a ringer for Jummah Cahtuh? He could be his love child I suppose, both through appearance and political proclivity. Must watch that MV person (pronounced poison). I think it has previous for misinformation."
Thank you for proving so thoroughly my earlier point re. q of d.

Carl

Yes, I mean Iran is just so short of manpower and just to be really helpful to Israel, they pull in those pesky Sunni Hamas from Gaza to help.

Penny

Sooli, you write:

"..the Iranians don't need extra man-power, and certainly not for civil unrest"

Of course they don't - but that doesn't necessarily make the story wrong. As I said in my earlier post, any presence of outside supporters (e.g. Hamas/Hezbollah) would have absolutely nothing to do with a lack of Iranian manpower but 'brotherhood', loyalty and shows of solidarity.

An example from the Washington Institute:

"Egypt has long been suspicious of the connection between the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and Iran, based in large part on Iran's longstanding strong ties to Hamas - an offshoot of the Brotherhood. The recent conflict in Gaza is likely to further arouse Cairo's suspicions. During the fighting, Iran was highly vocal in their support of Hamas, blasting the Egyptian government for its inaction. Hamas leader Khaled Mashal thanked Iran for its support of his organization, asserting that the "people of Gaza . . . have always appreciated the political and spiritual support of the Iranian leaders and nation." According to Iranian state television, Mashal reportedly said that "Iran has definitely played a big role in the victory of the people of Gaza and is a partner in that victory."

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=3014

Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood and also had a significant impact in the Islamic revival in Iran. Is it so unlikely that they would wish to join with their brothers now, not because they are desperately needed as manpower, but because of loyalty and a belief in the same ideologies and wishes promoted by Ahmadinejad? Hamas is far more in line politically with Ahmadinejad than with Mousavi.

I would also add that with foreign press now confined to their hotel rooms, all we can go by is eye-witness accounts. Heaven knows what is happening on the streets of Teheran.

Raymond in DC

steve writes, "These allegations are silly. How would members of Hamas even get to Iran?" Maybe the same way Iranian advisers move in and out of Gaza. Don't be naive.

Considering their history, I wouldn't put it past Hamas to repay the support they've been getting from Iran. But trust me. Iranians won't forget this. Once the mullahs are gone, Hamas and the PA will be cut off. Israel might even get their old embassy back (it was seized in 1979 and given to the PLO).

Joshua

If you cannot trust Jews in Israel or the Diaspora to tell the truth about matters concerning the Jewish state, then, in similar vein, how can you trust European non-Jews given the very long history of anti-Semitism on that continent?

Chris 9N

Hello all,

@Gil - I am a lawyer; generally two random bystanders making bald assertions wouldn't give rise to a headline stating that a fact is true. An official view from Iran/Palestine and/or actual evidence of Hamas involvement would appear to be more useful.

Imagine two members of the BNP stating that all Muslims are crazed terrorists. Should The Times then run a headline "All Muslims are Terrorists?". Hardly.

Not sure what the reference to Leftie protests has to do with me.

@Penny - my comment is not directed against the JP because it's an Israeli newspaper, it's directed against the JP because it's the JP. I adore Haaretz and use it for my Middle East news (it's far superior to something like Al-Ahram).

As I said, I have no idea if there are Palestinians in Iran nor do I dispute that there are Palestinians who support the current (in my view fairly awful) regime in Iran. My point is that the JP article is fairly poor and Melanie's picking up of it naive (or at worst disingenuous).

Jane

They clearly are short of manpower, Carl, which is how the demonstrations got so far.

Sharon

Hamas is not only in Gaza
There are many of them in west bank and evne in Iran because they are training in Iran and speacially Hizbollah training in Iran
this is not problem to come with plane from Beirut to Tehran

Penny

I understand, Chris.

Although in my view, Haaretz is certainly not beyond sensationalising the odd event!

To be honest, 'truth' is often difficult to find and I'm not sure reliance on any one source of news is a good idea. Since reading Mel's article I've had a 'google' about and discovered Iran does have a militia force used to supress dissent. Who knows who is amongst them?

seb

Many Iranians don't like Arabs. Why? Centuries ago, Arabs imposed Islam through force on the already ancient civilisation of Persia. Iranians are Indo-Europeans. Racist views? True but, in today's circumstances, irrelevant. If the régime is employing Arabs to beat and terrorise protestors, they will without a shadow of a doubt infuriate much of the population far beyond the level of discontent seen so far.

Maximilian

I have my suspicions about the authenticity of this report. Neither the JP reporter nor anyone else, it seems, asked the two witnesses how close they had been to the alleged Palestinians nor how they could be sure they were Hamas. It looks as though Sabina Hamidi, the JP correpondent, may have cautiously put the "Palestinians" fairly low down, in her sixth or seventh paragraph, and then a less cautious editor in Jerusalem moved them up to the lead. If the JP were really confident that there was no doubt about the identification, why has this story been slipping lower and lower on the online front page?

MikeW

I think the counter-arguments about manpower shortages are silly. Iran trains Hizbollah and Hamas operatives in Iran already. These palestinians don't need to be transported to Iran to beat up restive Iranians. They are already there.

Adam B.

Chris 9N, your BNP argument doesn't hold water. Two members of the BNP clearly have a political axe to grind, hence their "testimony" would be questionable. Why would two Iranians have an axe to grind with the Palestinians?

Also, to say that the Iranian regime is "fairly" awful is, I hope, an understatement (considering public hangings of minors and women buried up to their waists to be stoned to death). Not "fairly" awful, but utterly despicable.

I'm not a lawyer.

Ben Waxman

I find it hard to believe that Iran needs to import Palestinians for this type of stuff. They have enough home grown butchers.

Michael B

"A successful autocracy rests on the universal failure of individual courage. In a democracy, abdications of conscience are never trivial. They demoralise politics, debilitate candour, and disrupt thought." Marilynne Robinson

Yet the current administration would have us believe in the gospel of self-sedation and relaxing critical faculties in general.

And Carl, they would not have had to import, ad hoc, from Gaza. It is probable that there is already at least a small contingent of Hamas associates in Iran for training purposes, perhaps for R&R respites, a fact that has been reported by security and intel agencies. Indeed, squelching the current uprising against the Mullah's and Ahmadinejad's electoral machinations and coup d'etat would dovetail perfectly with such training.

Gil

Chris9N, what is the relevance of you being a lawyer? So lawyers have some superior insight? And, pray, do tell, how is the law of Evidence relevant to the non-legal sphere of news reporting? Is there something in the White Book that we should know about?

stanley Jerusalem

So Chris 9N you adore Haaretz for its unbiased accounts of Middle Eastern news? It is a well-written left wing anti-establishment paper representing all that is worst in israeli political life today. This was sent to all Haaretz web subscribers this afternoon regarding an earlier news bulletin:-"Haaretz readers received an email earlier today calling for support for Barack Obama and his Mideast peace policy. We wish to make clear that the email contained commercial content and not editorial content, and was inadvertently sent out without stating this fact. The contents of the email do not reflect any official Haaretz editorial stance, and we apologize for any confusion this may have caused."
Talk about rose-tinted spectacles! Perhaps you would have adored the Daily Worker too.

Herbert Thornton

This gave me the impulse to speculate on whether George Brown too would be inclined to hire Hezbollah and Hamas thugs to help him stay in power.

However, like Iran, Britain has its own plentiful supply of religious extremists, & some of them may already be in the Police, so perhaps he'd have no need to recruit Palestinians?

Can we take comfort from that?

porkbelly

It has also been reported that Chinese experts in crushing popular anti-government movements are advising the Iranian authorities. Isn't it wonderful that the current crisis has brought together all the lovely people we are trying to "engage"? I think I also detect the fine hand of Kim Jong-Il's tailor in Ahmedinejad's wardrobe.

Richard Lawson

O have seen tweets indicating that the brutal and murderous militia are Arabic or Palestinian. Police are saying "We will not hurt you, but run from the militia".

Things are not quite as black and white as some commenters here assume. I am a Green Party activist, deeply critical of operation Cast Lead, yet I am also rooting for the Iranian democracy movement.

The experience of brutality brutalises people. Period.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

The Iranian government is weak and will be weaker in the future, that is why they are importing the Islamic terrorists like Hamas and probably others who are from other parts of the world for a support, President Ahmedijajid, What is his name again? I can't even say his name right, he has to move on

Adam B.

Richard Lawson, can you explain why the Green Party supports a disgusting boycott of the Jewish State, but not of Iran, North Korea, Syria, Sudan or Zimbabwe?

Dixon

Mel omits to mention the really shocking story doing the rounds. That its not just Hamas that is lending a hand but thugs sent by Hugo Chavez.

Maximilian

Confirming what Richard Lawson said, here's a twitter feed from Tehranbureau:

[quote] Call from Iran: Today police telling protesters: "We won't beat u, but escape from Palestinian death squads." #iranelection #gr88 [end quote]

http://twitter.com/tehranbureau

Pip

The mention of Hezbollah being in Iran is constantly being mentioned by twitters in Iran.
http://twitterfall.com/

Btw I am disgusted with Obama's stance on this, the Iranians aren't too impressed either. Saying all that, Obama's shocking lack of backbone, is not really a surprise to many who know this man's background.

My thoughts and wishes of great strength go out to the people in Iran.

George

Chris,

According to the Bible, two witnesses are enough to convict for murder.

Archie

Why don't the protesters just threaten Ahmedinajad with a couple of barbers? Scare him to death!

Mike

Pip: I'm not a little puzzled by your 'Obama's shocking lack of backbone, is not really a surprise to many who know this man's background'.

No doubt,you will have read his life story.....'Dreams from my Father' so I'm further puzzled how you are able to claim his 'lack of backbone'.

Leaving aside his present stance vis-a-vis Israel and the Palestinians, what would you have him do with the Iranian situation?

Perhaps you believe there is nothing to learn from the errors of the last neo-con dominated Administration derived from their view of how the world should be........not as it is.

Chris 9N

@George - ok, still not sure why that's relevant. Surely it's the veracity of the evidence that's important? And bald assertions of "x killed y" are hardly enough for the bible or in current society.

@Stanley - shall we just admit to our own biases? I like Haaretz because it's supportive of Israel but reports from a wide spectrum of opinion. I also understood it to be Israel's oldest newspaper (from 1918?). Though I'm sure you're better versed than me being 'in Jerusalem' whilst I am sadly just 'in London'.

@Gil - sorry, shouldn't have mentioned I am a lawyer. I think I meant it in the context that bald assertions from two people of unknown motivation whilst being questioned by a reporter of a newspaper that (for legitimate reasons) hates Hamas is not the best source of news. I don't even mention the fact that sub-editors/editorial staff have probably fiddled the story too (As mentioned by some others here). Also, doesn't the law apply to news reporting? Nice White Book comment. Very funny.

@Adam B - I don't know why two Iranians have an axe to grind. Neither do you, neither does the JP. The JP has an axe to grind though, which was partly my point. How about this example, two randoms on the street allege that all the jobs in a local town are taken by Romanians. The Daily Express prints an article "all jobs go to Romanians". Probably not true and many axes grinding away.

@Penny - thanks, though I'd suspect Iran's militia would be made up of Iranians. Who know though.

I feel like a bit of a troll (I'm the opposite of those rabid right-wingers who post on the Guardian CiF), so I'll leave this thread be.

Tommy

It is great to see so many Persians uniting,they are the hope for the future of what was once Persia
I will never forget their candle-lit vigils for the dead of 9/11 while many of the islamic world celebrated

Quote....
"His hope, he added, was that Israel would ‘come to its senses’ and ruthlessly deal with the Palestinians. When asked if these militia fighters could have been mistaken for Lebanese Shi'ites, sent by Hizbullah, he rejected the idea. ‘Ask anyone, they will tell you the same thing. They [Palestinian extremists] are out beating Iranians in the streets… The more we gave this arrogant race, the more they want… [But] we will not let them push us around in our own country.’....Unquote

If only Obama had the same grasp of affairs

Maximilian

Twitter spam alert: A list of twitter sources in Iran either known or suspected to be pro-regime spammers/agents provocateurs:

http://twitspam.org/?p=1403

Alex Bensky

OK, Chris, I'm a lawyer too. Now we're even.

Using "Ha'Artez" as your source for Israeli news is a little like relying on the New York Times for coverage of American politics. As Stanley points out, it is (by Israeli standars) hard left. You will see a great deal more balanced coverage (that "more blanced," not "balanced") on the Jerusalem Post or, even better, YNet. (YNet is an English site for the newspaper Yediot Akhranot; I no longer know Hebrew well enough to say what differences, if any, are on its Hebrew site.)

I notice the story states that this is what two people told the reporter. The story doesn't assert that this necessarily represents broad and deep sentiment among the protest crowd.

As to why Iran might import Hezbollah or Hamas...perhaps the regime suspects that some Iranians might hesitate to open fire on other Iranians.

Adam B.

Chris, you missed my point, which is surprising, in light of the fact of you being a lawyer n' all. My point was that Iranians wouldn't have an axe to grind - unlike the example you provided of two BNP supporters. You then accuse the JP of lying. On what evidence?

Is that the same Haaretz whose editor said Israel "needs to be raped"? Are you impressed by that?

karen USA

Melanie - Obama is not deluded, his goal is one in the same, he simply lies that it is otherwise.

Ronnie

Dixon! Where on earth have you been?

Actually I heard, and please keep this to yourself, that Idi Amin had sent some troops to help Hangmejacketup to hang-on.

John Birch

The Revolutionary Guard in Iran are true fanatics and would be more than happy to kill Iranians. The government hardly needs either Hezbollah or Hamas to do its bidding. The one sure fire way of turning the entire populace of Iran against the government would be to send out Arabs to kill Iranians.

As for Obama, he's handling the crisis perfectly. The Iranian government is desperately trying to tie the protests and opposition to the U.S. government for reasons that have to do with past American involvement in Iranian affairs(the 1953 coup, support for the Shah, the Bush administration's covert efforts to overthrow the Iranian government) and general Iranian paranoia about foreign interference in their affairs.

mark

So, we know that money the west gives to the people that historicaly do not exist, called 'Palestinians' goes to Hamas, feeding their terrorist compaign against Israel.

Now we find that the west is funding the fanatic regime of Iran also.

I do hope the west wakes up soon.

Mike

Perhaps nobody has noticed but this is a great opportunity for the 'Fisk-haters' to have a real 'go' at him. He's not writing about Sabra or Chatila, Hezbollah, Hamas or anything at all to do with Israel and the Palestinians, but observing and reporting what he sees and is told, first-hand on the torrid streets of Tehran as we speak. He's not sitting in some comfortable arm-chair waiting for researchers to provide him with material, but working as a proper journalist should........out there...getting the story, as it happens...to his editor.

You know where to find his reports.

beloved

"Mark my words, it will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy...Remember I said it standing here if you don't remember anything else I said."
-Joe Biden, October, 2008

and he said that it would not be apparent at first that they are correct.--Biden

beloved

Steve: How would members of Hamas even get to Iran?

Me: the US just gave them a billion dollars, plus useful idiots among the collective in the US and UK sent recent "charity." They are loaded with new wealth. Big Injustice Industry is a lucrative business. Obama won't talk them into letting go of it, especially for something as abstract as "peace."