Terror in Wonderland

Shaun Harbord

Haven't you heard of criminals shopping others? It's an age old preactise and, sometimes, works but you are so intent on scorn that you speak first and think, if at all, later.

Alan Stoddart

The cloud on the horizon is Muslim hostility. To a superficial observer it seems that the Government, by deferring to the susceptibility of the Muslims, is encouraging their sense of aggrievement, while obtaining none of their goodwill.

Apologies to Robert Byron

Jeremy

"Terror in Wonderland"

A headline like that, plus an illustration by Sir John Tenniel, are rather wasted on a slight piece like this, Mel. You should have either saved them both for one of your more scathing and trenchant outings, or worked up what you had into something that would have done their use a bit more justice.

I'll wait until you're back into full-on Cassandra mode...^^

Tommy

Once again it shows that the security forces have been inadequately briefed as to what we are up against.

It no longer matters what truth is so long as islam can be portrayed as the victim

Suffolkbor

An convicted al Qaeda terrorist writing for the Guardian ?

You have to laugh don,t you ?

Kayson

The men's claim that they were tortured should be set in the context of the al-Qa'eda training manual discovered during a raid in Manchester in 2003. Lesson 18 of that manual, whose authenticity has not been questioned, emphatically states, under the heading "Prison and Detention Centres", that, when arrested, members of al-Qa'eda "must insist on proving that torture was inflicted on them by state security investigators. [They must] complain to the court of mistreatment while in prison" TELEGRAPH 30.01.05

Peterborough Paul

Response to Shaun Harbord:

Obviously Melanie has heard of criminals shopping others but here she is not talking about the likes of Burgular Bill and Hold-Up Harry - who are motivated solely by money and self-interest.

She is referring to Islamic Jihadists who are blindly and coldly driven by a violent Koranic ideology that loves death (i.e. their own death and the death of non-muslims) more than life.

Do you not see the difference or are you so intent on scorn that you speak first and think, if at all, later?

Sarah

Again and again, the allegations of 'torture' are being made by tainted witnesses.

These are people with a demonstrable history of dishonesty. Rangzieb Ahmed is a convicted terrorist, for heaven's sake. The press don't give credence to other ex-cons, so why this one? Binyam Mohamed admitted he was using a false passport when he was picked up, yet the British press core don't care about that or about the fact he won't answer questions on what he was doing in the Middle East.

In any other situation people like this wouldn't get an ounce of sympathetic reporting.

Yet, because they are Muslim and because the allegation is torture, Fleet Street drops its usual scepticism. All of a sudden the mainstream media isn't interested in their past history of dishonesty and doesn't question what motives they would have for fabricating these allegations - er, like wanting to destabilise our security services.

Such are the special privileges of the Muslim ex-con.

Ruairidh

Typical Melanie, takes the wrong end of the stick and grabs it with both hands.

It is incredibly obvious that the officers here (a) are being paraphrased by a convicted terrorist and (b) would have been speaking euphemistically in the first place. So for Melanie to then use the wording as an expression of incompetence or poor attitude by MI5 is simply absurd.

Kayson: Very good point. The manual you describe is authentic and other copies have been found in the UK and around the world. AQ are not beneath using our principles of decency against us.

Ruairidh

To Peterborough Paul, yes jihadists are different to normal criminals in many respects. Yet there are still informants within their circles and prison will remain a good place to recruit them. Therefore these entire blog post is completely unremarkable.

steve

They may well have been recruiting him as an informer. This sort of approach happens all of the time. I'm not sure why Melanie Phillips would find fault with that.

MIKHAIL SCHECHT

MS PHILIPS,
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAVE READ ANYTHING WRITTEN BY YOU. I MUST SAY THAT IT IS REFRESHING TO READ ARTICLES WRITTEN BY ONE SUCH AS YOU THAT DOES NOT BOOTLICK ANYONE AND TELLS IT STRAIGHT OUT AS A REPORTER SHOULD. WE SURE COULD USE A FEW LIKE YOU HERE IN THE U.S. TO OPEN EYES. THANK YOU
MIKHAIL SCHECHT

Mark

What can the spin doctors do with that I wonder...the power of nightmares. That is quite an interesting series if biased.

Sarah

Yes, Ruairidh, Shaun Harbord et al we know there are terrorist informants - but that is not the point of this post.

Let's read through it again in baby steps for you and all the other Guardianistas.

Rangzieb Ahmed: ‘They said they wanted my advice about tackling extremism' - that is an entirely separate point from being recruited as an informant.

Which is why Ms Phillips did not write 'how dare they recruit informants' and instead wrote this: "In a sane world, the idea that the British police and MI5 would ask al Qaeda for ‘advice about tackling extremism’ would be so absurd it would be proof positive that the man was lying through his teeth. In Britain, alas, it rings all too horribly, ludicrously true."

steve

Sarah: It is rare that an intelligence service or police force would outright ask someone to be an informer during an initial meeting. It is handled in a more subtle fashion and asking for his advice about "tackling extremism" is in keeping with such an approach. This was an ill-considered post on the part of Melanie in her haste to bash some of her usual targets. I should add that I happen to know some individuals involved in counter-terrorism in the UK and I trust their judgement far more than I do Melanie's.

Sarah

steve: “Sarah: It is rare that an intelligence service or police force would outright ask someone to be an informer during an initial meeting.”

No kidding. So what? When have I – or Melanie Phillips – said otherwise?

‘It is handled in a more subtle fashion” So what? I haven’t said otherwise.

‘Asking for his advice about "tackling extremism" is in keeping with such an approach.’ The approach – whether subtle or straightforward – has got nothing to do with this point.

The reason why Melanie despairs is because she wonders what the security services are doing asking a member of al Qaeda for such advice at all. She doesn’t dispute that it happened. If someone wants to shop some co-conspirators to reduce their sentence – that’s great. But what are the British security services doing asking a member of al Qaeda for advice on policy-making?

The only thing that’s been ill-considered on this post is the number of people who’ve come flying out of their traps saying that there are things in the post that clearly aren’t there.

I’m still waiting for you and your friends to point out where Melanie Phillips has said having informants is a bad idea.

You go on: “I should add that I happen to know some individuals involved in counter-terrorism in the UK and I trust their judgement far more than I do Melanie's.”

Add for what, steve? The fact that you know someone in the security services indicates nothing other than your appetite for self-aggrandisement.

You tell us you “trust their judgement far more than I do Melanie's” – but Melanie has never disputed a word either Rangzieb Ahmed or The Guardian has said about the security services asking his “advice about tackling extremism”. She has merely observed that the security services are now so dim that what Ahmed has said on this subject is almost certainly true. True. Remember that word? She used it in her post so you Guardianistas couldn’t get confused: “it rings all too horribly, ludicrously true”.

It’s the opposite of false. Or are you no good without an Alan Rusbridger to hold your hand.

Drakken

Wow I am amazed at some of the posts here. It used to be that you Brits used to have a set, but now it seems you have become more interested in a terrorists so called human rights than about your own survival. You folks on the left can take that high moral ground till they bury you in it.
The reason you folks on the left sleep peaceably in your beds at night is because rough men stand ready to do violence on your behalf!

Dixon

Go explain "takkiya" to them someone.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

The Guardian will be very soon the first "Sharia law" newspaper in Britain

David Raynes

It is quite, indeed very likely, that such a prison visit took place. (and it will be a matter of record). It is also very likley that words rather similar to the words Melanie complains of, were used at some point. Flattery and aggrandisment of a potential Human Inteligence Source would be one of a range of behaviours and techniques used by those tasked to recruit and get the confidence of informants.