The Obamanable churchman

Brian O'Connor

One of the more self-destructive aspects of the American left is their inability to avoid double standards, and to deny them when pointed out. (Of course, the right occasionally falls into the double-standard trap too, but the left seems to have made dealing in double standards a form of art.)

The left has gotten away with it because the MSM is itself knee-deep in double standards, holding the right accountable but not the left.

So the left has pretty much gotten a "pass" -- indeed, one could almost say the MSM has encouraged them to go ever further out onto the proverbial double-standard limb by not holding them accountable. (I think the American right is far better able to avoid double standards because they know they'll get nailed by the MSM if they succumb to temptation -- and sometimes even if they do not.)

But I wonder if this isn't changing. The internet is here, and I don't think the MSM's success in looking the other way for "me but not thee" can continue unabated.

I think Mr. Obama has multiple problems.

Rev Goat Boy

Your got This straight from Christopher Hitchens over at Slate. Anyway Obama is going to win so big he won't need the Jewish vote. I love it that the next President of the USA winds you up so much is it anything to do with his middle by chance?

korova

...here begins the smear campaign against a black man hoping to stand for president. Melanie Phillips you are an utterly disgusting individual. And I am not even a fan of Obama.

Rev Goat Boy

You got This straight from Christopher Hitchens over at Slate. Anyway Obama is going to win so big he won't need the Jewish vote. I love it that the next President of the USA winds you up so much is it anything to do with his middle name by chance? Shouldn't have hit the button without checking.

korova

"....on the basis that those who are not middle-class are separated from other black people by *Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another. *Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons." Er, source please? Otherwise this looks like yet another ill informed rant (of which many of us are used to by now).

someone from US

Dear animal commentators (korova is a cow in Russian)! You belong to the other (left) side of this pasture - is it because the grass is greener on this side? Or you can only bash the author instead of giving a thoughtful comments? Thank you, Melanie! You're one of the few remaining glimpses of hope for the Great Country!

Adam B.

Korova, you attack Melanie Phillips for being "disgusting" because she does not share your views. What a fascist you are. And you say you don't support Obama. Are you a racist?

Brian O'Connor

Korova wrote:

...here begins the smear campaign against a black man hoping to stand for president. Melanie Phillips you are an utterly disgusting individual. And I am not even a fan of Obama.

Though I do not, I could easily concede that Mel is an "utterly disgusting individual." But what would that have to do with the issue?

Are the claims she made wrt Mr. Obama and Dr. Wright and their points of view true or not?

I value Korova's opinion highly, and am wide open to the possibility that Mel is incorrect, but I'd sure like something more persuasive than an (irrelevant) ad hominem attack upon her person and an argument by assertion that a smear campaign has begun.

Surely we can agree that if what Mel writes is true, whatever smear happens has been brought about by the principals themselves, no matter how "utterly disgusting" an individual Mel-the-Messenger -- or those of us who support her -- might be.

I guess the obvious question is this: should we ignore Dr. Wright's words and inclinations and Mr. Obama's close association with Dr. Wright, and if so, why?

Bob The Builder

korova January 8th, 2008 9:54pm The source is the Trinity United Church in Chicago's website. Melanaie said as much but reading and comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point. See here, you'll find what Melanie quoted and much more: http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html

Di

He's the media's darling no wonder why America is doomed. The American left is the most discusting body politic on the face of the earth. When the mullahs take over, they will be the first to be executed. How stupid are these people? Barrack, hell no! Keep up the good work Melanie!

Disgusted

The American left is the second most disgusting body politic on the face of the earth after the European left. I believe they think it's a joke that these 8th century barbarians will actual take over. Jokes on them, they will be the first to be executed in the new world order. Boy, do they deserve it! Keep up the good work, Melanie, exposure of the charlatan benefits humanity!

Sonsie

This is how the church's website used to look before they realized scrutiny was not going to help their "cause": Trinity United Church of Christ About Us We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian… Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community. Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts: 1. Commitment to God 2. Commitment to the Black Community 3. Commitment to the Black Family 4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education 5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence 6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic 7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect 8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness" 9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community 10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions 11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System 12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

J. Isaac

Rev Goat Boy and korova the cow are clearly from George Orwell's Animal Farm. Does that make Obama into Napoleon the pig? If so, look what happened to him.

Emmess

Keep your powder dry, Melanie

Frank Pulley

Looks like this post had a profound effect on the NH result. :-)

Thomas

I can confirm Sonsie's posting; I viewed that highly racist organization's website early last year and also viewed its bookshop selection which included books on the Nation of Islam and black supremacism. Within 24 hours of that book list being mentioned in the blogosphere, the dubious books had been removed from the listing.

korova

"korova January 8th, 2008 9:54pm The source is the Trinity United Church in Chicago's website. Melanaie said as much but reading and comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point. See here, you'll find what Melanie quoted and much more: http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html" Excellent work Bob. And yes, I did find the website and did understand what she alluded to, I had been hunting around and couldn't find the exact reference. Shame Melanie couldn't have done so in her text (that would require a more thorough piece of journalism). As for reading and comprehension, I suggest you re-read your own comment before casting further stones.

Harry Templeton

Melalnie You've gone and done it again. Another brilliant expose. I'm certain more is to come out that will certainly discredit Obama. A wolf in sheeps clothing, indeed! He's more dangerous than I had first thought.

Bob The Builder

So korova, will you now apologise to Melanie for accusing her of writing "yet another ill informed rant"? She doesn't "allude" to anything; she spells it out with sourced quotes from the horse's mouth. If I and others where able to find them on the "Church's" website you should have been able to too instead of insulting Ms Phillips and setting yourself up as some expert on journalistic writing. You an oaf, and boring with it.

Bob The Builder

Oh, korova, if you're going to come back here and post replies please respond to Brian O'Connor's comment of January 8th, 2008 11:42pm in which he asked you a direct question.

Howard Wolf

His handlers are doing a great job of keeping the media as far away from him as possible. He doesn't do well with difficult questions.

Frank pulley

A very worthy, well-sourced and interesting exposé. But while we are inveighing against Obama can anyone suggest who we should be rooting for to improve the ‘special relationship’ next year? Hillary, sadly, seems to have either directly or by accident been the beneficiary of the admirable and justified muckraking against Obama and I'm shocked that the waterworks display appears to have worked for her rather than against her. But has anybody any idea which if any of the potential GOP candidates has a chance of becoming President? In particular who is most likely to maintain our defences against Islamic creep and militancy; to proactively and relentlessly pursue and kill the terrorists? Seems our own government no longer has a stomach for the fight and as Melanie’s latest post indicates our Foreign Office seems to contain a sizeable cadre of traitors.

David Lindsay

"And how have the Democrats got themselves into a position where the choice they offer voters for the American presidency is between Hillary Clinton and this man?" They haven't. Why are you joining in the media blackout of John Edwards?

Phil

Black people should have representation. But so too should Whites. This is where the real double standards of todays society are unearthed.

Douglas

Christ I can't quite believe what a bunch of halfwits are posting here. You actually think Ms. Phillips' hysterical drivel is worthy of praise? Give me strength.

Brian O'Connor

Frank Pulley wrote:

. . . I'm shocked that the waterworks display appears to have worked for her [Hillary] rather than against her.

I share your shock.

But has anybody any idea which if any of the potential GOP candidates has a chance of becoming President? In particular who is most likely to maintain our defences against Islamic creep and militancy; to proactively and relentlessly pursue and kill the terrorists?

The short answers are, regrettably: who knows? I sure don't.

I take some comfort in the fact that some people are able to grow into an impossible job that would overwhelm normal people. I consider Reagan to have been one such person. With respect to the events of 9/11 and the options that were available to him, and granted all his faults, missteps and disappointments in this and other areas, I think Bush did too.

To me, there are three overarching issues: first, whether or not a candidate considers the GWOT to be a law enforcement problem or a military one. Second, the extent to which the candidate has bought into a variety of the reason- and fact-ignoring multicultural trendiness that has lowered western virtues to the level of non-western values. Third, whether or not a candidate understands that nations have interests, not friends, and whether or not s/he understands that working to gain the affection of other peoples is destructive on many levels, but working to gain their respect serves everyone well.

But any one of Giulianni, Thompson, McCain or Romney, it seems to me, is better than either Obama or Hillary. (I've ruled Huckabee out -- he's a carbon copy of Jimmy Carter when it comes to foreign policy.)

Between Hillary and Obama, I'd pick Hillary if only because however cynical, corrupt, power hungry, leftist oriented and grossly misguided she is, I believe she has some touch with reality, or at least an appreciation of "cause and effect." I don't think Obama does -- or if so, I haven't seen it.

A major problem with both of them is that neither has executive experience, and I think that's really important. Being able to run a committee successfully and to develop compromise solutions is a necessary skill, to be sure, but not all decisions should be the product of compromise. It takes, I believe, a very astute person with solid executive experience to know when to compromise and when not to.

The problem with the repubs is that none is good across the board: McCain may be best about the GWOT, but he buys into AGW, was for McCain Feingold, fought for open borders, against the tax cuts, etc.. All that points to his worst sin: he is unpredictable. (Having an allegiance to an ideology isn't all bad -- it provides a framework for one's decision making. I'm not sure what McCain's ideology is, and at times it almost seems like he's making it up as he goes along.)

Having said this, he's about the most courageous person on the campaign trail, and his leadership is proven (compromise was not an option when he was a POW).

Romney would consult the lawyers before responding to another 9/11 style attack . . . I find that a real turn-off. Otherwise, he's a wonderful executive and manager. Inconsistent on some things, yes

Giulianni's leadership is unquestioned, and he'd do well in the GWOT. But I'm unsure of his commitment to closed borders, his counter-factual position on gun control, and I worry about spending issues, despite the fact that he talks incessantly about how many times he cut taxes in NYC. (Look at the spending record of GWB -- who would have guessed?)

Thompson, too, lacks executive experience, and that's a big deal to me. Also, he's accused of being lazy (the same accusation was leveled at Reagan), and his campaign does seem to be disorganized. But he says the right things.

So where does that leave me?

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

In answer to "Why are you joining in the media blackout of John Edwards?" Perhaps because he embodies the politics of resentment and class warfare, promissing to take money from the evil rich. Perhaps because he has grown rich by using the courts to destroy business and industry. Perhaps because he is a populist demagogue who has so much wealth and power that he no longer has anything in common (except feigned resentment) with those he presumes to champion, but whose jobs and economy he would cheerfully destroy to increase his own power. Perhaps because his response to people who want to commit acts of war on the US is to have the US fight them in court instead of on the battlefield. Perhaps because enough of the Iowa and New Hampshire voters saw through him that he has pulled out of the race.

Brian O'Connor

Douglas wrote:

Christ I can't quite believe what a bunch of halfwits are posting here. You actually think Ms. Phillips' hysterical drivel is worthy of praise? Give me strength.

I'm open to the possibility that I am a halfwit and that Ms. Phillips' post are hysterical drivel, unworthy of praise.

Would you care to support your assertions, or are you so elevated, so above the rest of the cretinous world, that we should all defer to your pronouncement?

And while you're at it, how did you manage to achieve such a state of perfection that you can indiscriminately tar all who post here with one negative stereotype?

Vay

Wait, you're calling OBAMA racist??? You bloody hypocrite! This article made me sick. You are a truly twisted, vile, cowardly woman.

Brian O'Connor

Vay wrote:

Wait, you're calling OBAMA racist???

I found her case persuasive. What about it did you not?

Michael N

Vay - thanks for providing so much detailed and rational analysis. Your logic and detailed citations have utterly demolished Melanie's critique. Brilliant contribution to the debate!

Arthur

Looks like you've got the brainwashed unwashed rattled, Melanie. Keep up the good work! x

Jakemeister

Pretty hypocritical Melanie. Keep talking in vague terms like Democrats getting aneurism and media isn't investigating, when it is the GOP who began injecting their Cracker Christianity into politics and those wonderful Xtians, the ones who believe in the Rapture and Fire and Brimstone, are the ones most prejudiced against Mormons like Romney. So if the MSM, that vague amorphous mass that all right wingers hate because it doesn't sound like Sean Hannity stupid rants, started trashing Obama's church, we would hear a hailstorm of insults from both the right and left babbling about demeaning religion and spreading racism. Actually, listening to those rihgt wingers who love to inject religion into life by fighting the War on Xmas, are now the ones talking about keeping politics secular, with only a smattering of hypocritical, greeting card religion here and there.

Andrew

Congrats, smears like this have made factcheck step up to the plate. http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_obama.html

Michael N

Jakemeister - was there a point being made in there somewhere? I'm confused - you approve of black-supremacist religious racism?, or you have facts which make it clear that Obama has no such connections? Or was it just a broad-brush simplisitc rant that fails to address the detail of the post, instead suggesting that commentators have to take a sweeping stand either for or against religion in public life, regardless of the contents and beliefs of the particular religious doctrine in question, or risk having you and people like you call them hypocrites?

Michael N

Andrew - it's nice to see, for once, someone who disagrees with Melanie actually providing evidence and argument, and an alternative reading of the evidence, addressing the substance of a debate rather than resorting to crude name-calling and ad hominem attacks. Thanks for the link.

Rex

As I’ve said elsewhere, in my view, the most alarming parts of Obama’s Church’s “10 Point Vision” are 4 and 10. “4. A congregation with a ‘non-negotiable’ COMMITMENT TO AFRICA” (emphasis in the original). If I offer to sell you my car for $30,000 and I tell you that the price is “non-negotiable” that means that either you pay me $30,000 or there’s no deal–take it or leave it. “Non-negotiable” leaves no room for ambiguity. “Non-negotiable” means non-negotiable. Therefore, since there’s NO DISPUTE that he’s a member of the “congregation”, and that the congregation has a “non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA”, it is impossible for him to faithfully take his Oath of Office as a United States Senator, President, or any other public office for that matter. Toward that end, there can be little doubt that the interests of the United States and the interests of any one of the nations of Africa, or any other nation, are perpetually in dispute, at one level or another. By definition, you can’t have both a non-negotiable commitment to the United States and to the continent of Africa. If the words “Black” and “Africa” were replaced on Obama’s Church’s website with “White” and “Germany”, this man would be labeled a “White Separtist” by the media, and his political career would immediatly be over. “10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY” By definition, economic parity means communism–plainly. So, in sum, Mr. Obama belongs to a Black Separatist Church that is working toward communism. It’s their words, not mine. This ought to do a lot to allay the fears of people who believe that Obama is a left-wing radical (sarcasm intended).

Mike Homfray

At least there's a better chance of something other than fawning acquiescence with the illegal actions of rogue state Israel

Gabriel

Andrew, that link does not answer melanie's post, but an unrelated e-mail. Obama belongs to a chuch with a theology that can best be described as black supremacist and espouses an agenda far to the Left of what Obama claims to believe. All your link answers in return is that the church accepted a white professor as a member. You will find that the professor in question is a proud Left-wing radical with self-hating views all too common on some sections of the Left. So Obama's church is not quite as bad as the Nation of Islam, it is still very bad and any member of it is patently unfit to be President.

Michael N

Mike Homfrey - the contest for the most hackneyed, second-hand, empty-headed, rhetorical teenaged sloganeering is on another thread altogether, you've stumbled here by mistake I presume.

Makes you wonder

Why did the Church change its website?? If there is nothing wrong as to what they believe or what the swearing from the pulpit pastor preaches then why the change? Are they ashamed?