'The regime's overthrow has begun'

Liz SA

And now we wait for the BBC to pay this matter the same 'equitable' attention as it does with matters affecting Israel.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Oh! how trouble, i want to cry now, is this what they do to their girls?

truthtriumphs

Tell it to people like Ben White, whose disgraceful book, "Israeli Apartheid", was promoted under the auspices of War on Want last week, at which event I was present.
We are witnessing a grossly unjust and obscene cult of hatred directed at Israel, a decent and humane country whose humanity is never acknowleged by such people, whilst brutal and barbaric regimes are not censured by the liberal "elite".
That is the world we now live in.
Disgusting!

Andre

If only for the sake of the oppressed, the hungry and the persecuted the West needs to start believing in its self and its historic values once more. Christ puts it succinctly enough. 'I say to you, what you did not do for one of these, the least of persons, you did not do for me.' We betray our very souls when we look away from the people of Iran.

Arik from America

Melanie,

I am a US Iraq veteran. Barack Obama campaigned in a way that took advantage of the the pain of American suburbanites who were 'mentally exhausted' from the constant news coverage of the war. They felt they needed a change. It seem that in the fashion world as well as American politics, people become fickle when the same names are repeated ad nauseum. Barack Obama was young, metrosexual and black. But what he can not see is a population that is truly exhausted from war. American victory is truly at hand if the West is truly ready to help this revolt.

Commondog

Liz SA

Don't hold your breath.

Ray

Iran? Iran? Oh, that was that place that was on the BBC news a few weeks back, but which no one in the MSM bothers to report about any more.

Augustus

This is unbelievable, but it had to come. It's the proof that
true political awareness has at last filtered through to the masses. And America, or Israel, has nothing to do with it. But Russia and China are the great allies of the Iranian regime. They were among the first countries to congratulate Ahmadinejad with his victory, and the people know that the Iranian military was taught by the Russians.

Why is Russia such pals with Iran? Because they earn really vast amounts from those stupid ayatollahs. Russian planes are all sold to Iran. They're old planes, not worth a penny, but they can still kill thousands of people. Russia also sells nuclear technology and weapons to Iran. Russia must now be thinking that if a revolution succeeds in overthrowing Ahmadinejad and Khamenei there won't be much room for them anymore in Persia.

So now the whole country is in a crisis not seen for thirty years. "People have lost their faith in the ruling elite, and the government must release all political prisoners", said Rafsanjani. He also spoke of the
victims of the last few weeks. So even Friday prayers are no longer safely in the hands of the rulers. So what is the next step in this intrigue? It will probably come when the Revolutionary Guard's top brass decide what the red line is beyond which nobody may go, leaders or opposition. When that happens power will no longer be exclusively in Khamenei's hands. The club of radical ayatollahs who wield the real power in Iran are the ones the West will have to deal with when it comes to Iran's nuclear ambitions. They are probably intent upon having the bomb, but the West must resist these radicals and follow the will of the people. They mean business and will continue to the bitter end. Perhaps the end of Islamic Fascism is nigh.

Joshua

Outrageous that Obama should compare himself with Abraham Lincoln when in reality he has far more in common with Neville Chamberlain.

steve

Liz SA: Actually, the regime in Iran kicked BBC reporters out of the country a number of weeks ago because it didn't like their reports.

Si, N

Lol; ‘The Jerusalem Post reported an interview with a serving member of the paramilitary Basiji militia’, and that’s sufficient to certify the militia man a ‘Basiji thug’. Yet days earlier, perfectly credible reports about Israeli militia men are dismissed by Melanie Phillips as ‘unsourced, unverified and unsubstantiated allegations and assertions by unnamed Israeli soldiers claiming appalling acts’.

Hang on there, how did The Jerusalem Post come about the damning interview with the militia man? ‘The interview took place by telephone, and on condition of anonymity. It was arranged by a reliable source whose identity can also not be revealed’. (The Jerusalem Post, 19 July 2009).

Er, go figure

Sam Armstrong

As another girl is raped and killed, Toynbee and co. still insist that we are better off not interfering.

Michael B

Si, N,

Your argument is qualitatively and substantively vapid.

Israel is a western parliamentary democracy, with a full slate of checks and balances, offsetting balance of powers and rights for all citizens, a full 22% of which are Arab. By contrast, Iran is a totalitarian or quasi-totalitarian state wherein even the semblance of voting rights applies only to lower level officials, not the mullahocracy and oligarchy itself, which has dragged the Persian peoples and their most basic human rights through the mud.

Drakken

Hey SIN
Just a little clarification for your ummmm slight misinformation. they are not Israeli thugs, they are Hezbollah thugs and thugs from Hamas. If your going to spout misinformation ya might at least try to be accurate. I really hope this helps you out.

Miranda Rose Smith

The Basiji thug's story was horrifying-and given what we know of Iran, probably true. Just to make sure, I think the Jerusalem Post should have done some fact checking-extend the same courtesy to Iran that we demand that the BBC extend to Israel. I'm sure they would have found PLENTY of FACTS.
Basiji sounds like "Basenji," a breed of dog.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Truthtriumphs: BRAVO!

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Si, N: If the Basiji thug had spoken out openly, the way any Israeli who wants to can, he wouldn't have lived very long, and neither would his family.

mona

As an Iranian I can say that the people had enough of their rulers a long time ago- but these events have given people the opportunity to voice their anger and need for change and democracy. I hope the rest of the world can still support us- Please don't forget us!
Note 25th July is United for Iran day and is taking place in many cities throughout the world- come and join us www.united4iran.org green=freedom from tyranny

Augustus

@ Mona

I understand that about 80% of the aprroximately 120,000 members of the Revolutionry Guard are conscripts, i.e. not regulars. Do you know how loyal that group is to the regime?

YA

Augustus: RG IS the regime, - modelled from the Nazi SS force.
Such organizations are very stable. German SS was violently defeated. Transforming Russia's KGB to an organization with acceptable level of.. what, bestiality.. took about 60 years. They are the only armed force controlling the country, and they won't give up power voluntarily.

I don't see any point in singing kumbaya with Iranian "opposition", as it might be 100% "democratic", "free", "technocratic" and even "progressive", being at the same time anti-Western, pro-terrorist, pro-nuclear, fanatical, and in an new way, oppressive. And in any case everything will remain under control of RG's fascists.

Or briefly, plague on your both houses.

Augustus

YA: It's true that an Islamic Fascist state depends for its very continuation on its prevalence above the will of the people. A free republic could never be a pure Islamic one, but this revolution appears
to be voicing opinions which are
against the pure political form of Islam under which the people live. Rafsanjani may now be taking sides with the opposition because he is himself in danger and suddenly favours reform in the hope that opposition to one group of fundamentalists will save him.

As regards the population itself, if you're going to protest against such a strict and oppressive ideology as political Islam and Sharia, you can only do so in a piecemeal fashion, such as, for example, male and female students in Tehran praying next to one another in the street; an act which is against Allah's laws which forbid men and women to pray together. They are supposed to be seperated at all times, including at prayers. It is only by chipping away at the fundamentalist setup that such a
frustrated populace can hope for an ultimate overthrow. I fear you may be right, however, regarding the incorruptibility of the RG.

Marcus

So, who, in the face of an indifferent world is doing anything to raise these appalling crimes? P Instead of venting hatred on their various pet hate figures on these obscure pages, perhaps bloggers might like to consider a more fruitful course of action - like joining Amnesty International,which right now features human rights abuses in Iran and Saudi Arabia on its website front page, attempting to bring those abuses to the front of the world's mind. But of course, according to Ms Phillips we should all be boycotting AI. Prejudiced ranting is apparently a better course than any kind of active contribution.

Mona

Joining Amnesty International is very worthwhile but in particular to Iran, please come and support united4 Iran Global day, this Saturday 25th July outside the Iranian embassy, princes gate sw1 . Rally starts from 1-4pm.
Incidentally AI are supporting this event as are 'Iranian League for defense of human rights', 'Nobel Women's Initiative', 'Shirin Ebadi 2003 Nobel Peace Laureate' and others. This unique event is taking place in more than 50 cities through out the world and is supporting the ongoing protests against the regime in Iran

Michael B

Amnesty International (AI) and Human Rights Watch (HRW) have done some good work and that should not be minimized, the baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater; however, the bathwater does need to be distinguished from the baby.

When it comes to AI's and HRW's Middle East and Israel related coverage and activism, HRW and AI are among the most ideologically coopted NGOs on the planet. I recall an Al-Qaeda in Iraq torture room discovered by U.S. Marines, wherein instruments of torture, dismemberment and death were discovered, wherein a lengthy pamphlet was found containing chapter titles such as "The Legitimacy of Cutting Infidels' Heads Off" - yet after the news broke AI and HRW failed to feature any advocacy or any coverage whatsoever. During the same period they did however pull their chin and furrow their brow a GREAT deal over Gitmo. That was two or three years ago.

Presently, suffice to say NGO Monitor has released commentary on both HRW's and AI's specious and highly distorted advocacy against Israel via the recent Gaza campaign and they're in the process of producing lengthier reports on both AI and HRW.

Who watches the watchers? In this case, NGO Monitor.

Marcus

Michael B - the omission you claim by AI and HRW seems unlikely, but I'm open to persuasion on the facts. However - first - surely you can't be quoting NGO Monitor as anon-partisan source? And secondly, while it's great that you are generous enough to acknowledge the good work that Amnesty and HumanRightsWatch carry out, do you remember Mel calling on this blog for the complete boycott of the very same NGOs - I think she denounced them as 'evil'?

Michael B

Marcus,

You're open to persuasion? Then do the research and prove me wrong - or admit you can't find anything. The original report can be found at the The CounterTerrorism Blog.

Or, presently, take the example of the Kingdom of Jordan systematically revoking the citizenship of Jordanian Palestinians and a similar policy throughout the twenty-plus states that comprise the Arab League. Neither AI or HRW is reporting on this at all that I've been able to discover. Nor have they ever reported on this proscriptive anti-Palestinian policy.

By contrast, what do you think they'd be doing if Israel initiated such a policy against its Arab population? (And again, 22% of Israel's citizens are Arab and 14% are Muslim.)

And you're indulging silly juvenilia in one of it's worst forms. Ultimately, there are no "pure" or entirely objective or "non-partisan" sources, but I didn't suggest otherwise. So what's your point? Are you promoting AI or HRW as ideologically disinterested or "non-partisan"? If so, share your question-begging and stupefying ignorance with someone else. They are far indeed from being ideologically disinterested and nowhere is that fact illuminated better than when one looks at their history as applied to Israel and the Middle East. Further, given HRW's venality recently, begging for money from wealthy Saudis, it's not merely an ideological bias they're indulging, it's monetarily based as well.

Finally, when NGOs such as AI and HRW promote such a one-sided anti-Israel view and agenda, even promoting boycotts and lawfare campaigns against Israel and despite the contrary evidence - and given the stakes involved and the larger context - they are engaging in a type and degree of evil. Not the worst that the world has ever seen, but in general it reflects a qualitative evil nonetheless.

In general, you indulge too much question begging to be taken very seriously.

Marcus

MichaelB : your response - rather huffy given the temperate nature of my earlier comments, suggests you've been caught out in citing two extremely partisan blogs (blogs for heaven's sakes!) as reliable sources. There is, can I remind you, a real world outside the crazy realm of the blogosphere. As for your comments about AI and HRW - bizarre given that you previously praised them for the sterling work they do in supporting human rights and combating persecution across the globe.

Michael B

The correct CounterTerrorism Blog link. It's a single example only, one that illustrates the ideological and human rights imbalance of NGOs such as AI and HRW in any better grounded, normative sense - which is the "sense" they deem themselves to be advocating.

Michael B

Not huffy at all, Marcus, I was being descriptive. Your argument, such as it is, is constituted of question begging and deflections and little more, in lieu of cogency and engagement.

Also, the The CounterTerrorism Blog is authored by experts in the field, as is NGO Monitor in their own field, which perhaps is why you continue to avoid any truer engagement and opt instead for ad hominem styled arguments and deflections. Not "bizarre," in fact your commentary is all too predictable - and common.

Marcus

Hmm MichaelB - still piling on the abuse! I spent a happy half hour checking out the Counter Terrorism blog. Indeed, some well-connected contributors, but also a lot of links with the security industry special interests so familiar from Bush's Iraq.I'm curious - are you one of them? or just a bystander?

Michael B

Marcus, good grief, you're like a windup doll who walks around in circles. I've now forwarded several substantive points, several appreciable aspects of the discussion, and you've yet to address any of them on similarly substantive grounds. Instead, you continue to whine and forward ad hominem tactics and forms of misdirection in general. And no, I'm not a contributor to either of the sites in question.

Marcus

MichaelB; leaving aside the personal abuse(and ignoring the cod-academic use of 'ad hominem' etc.), our dispute seems in part to be about the reliability of sources of information. Taking your description of the Counter-Terrorism blog as 'normative': your normative is my extreme-right-wing blog with connections to vested interests in the 'security' industry - and of course my 'normative' presents similar problems for you.

To try to be engage more seriously, you started by acknowledging the good work done by NGOs like AI and HRW, then switched in one quick jump to calling them evil. Could it not the case that, like others here, an inability to hear any criticism of any aspects of Israeli policy leads you to a contradictory and untenable position, and ultimately to the absurdity of naming invaluable NGOs 'evil'? It is possible to be critical of aspects of Israel government actions but Not be party to a desire for Israel's defeat.

Michael B

It's proving impossible to have a coherent exchange with you, Marcus, you need to be able to sustain some continuity of thought in order to actually have an exchange and you're failing to do so. You still have not responded in any more substantive manner to anything I've forwarded.