The US government forgets what country Jerusalem is in

Truthtriumphs

Don't fret.
Just under 2000 years ago the mighty Roman Empire thought that it had driven out the Jews from Jerusalem for good.
They were wrong.
Jerusalem is the capital of a sovereign Jewish state,and always will be, and the Romans have no empire.

JSPoint

Jordan

sarah

Welldone Melanie.

Obama is a great danger to Israel.

People in power like him remind us of Rabin, who brought about his own end through his lack of clear thinking.

elixelx

Astonishing? Well maybe to someone who expects this New Pharoah to act the same as the Old Pharoah.
The OP was a man of wisdom who saw what Joseph was and hired him immediatly to feed the world in a time of famine!
This New Pharoah doesn't recognise Joseph at all!
Ahhh History! There it goes again, repeating itself!

ATTS

Observations from personal experience:
1. The U.S. Consulate in Jerusalem is in an Arab neighborhood and the local employees are Arabs. (There is a small branch-consulatein a Jewish neighborhood but it is only for commercial matters.)

The State Department staff at the Consulate are often openly hostile to Israel. So much so that the consulate is often called The U.S. Embassy to Palestine.

One Consul-General retired from his post and went to work for the PLO, as a consultant to arafat.

A U.S. passport acquired or renewed at that Consulate gives place of issue as "Jerusalem" and will not put "Israel" on the passport.
When an American couple in Jerusalem has a child born a U.S. citizen, the Consulate documents will have "Jerusalem" as place of birth, and no mention of "Israel".

Congress has complained about this, but the State Department goes its own way.

Norman G.

Just another example of the insidious anti-Jewish, anti-Israel mindset that permeates much of the Arabist State Department. Now it turns out that the FBI is also accused of this same sickness underlying it's inexplicable campaign against AIPAC and two of its officials a few years back. This perversion of sanity must stop.

Stephen Rothbart

Well nothing surprises me about that. Was this a policy of the BO administration or was it the same under Bush and Clinton?

Incidentally, the British Consulate in Jerusalem does the same thing.

It seems both consulates consider themselves Palestinian.

Ian G

That seems to settle the matter. Israel does not exist. Presumably the USA has taken over the British Mandate and will renege on it also. Obama clearly favours a one-state solution, just not the Jewish State. Is it 2009 or 1948?

logdon

When the Washington Post reacts like this something is afoot!

Netanyahu, outfoxing Obama time after time, is playing a blinder.

From Arutz Sheva website

Obama’s ‘Hit Man’ Emanuel Splitting US American Jewry
by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu Bibi Denies ‘Self-hating' Quote

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has denied calling White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel and senior Obama advisor David Axelrod “self-hating Jews." The alleged use of that term is particularly timely as Jews mourn on Thursday the destruction of the First and Second Holy Temples; Judaism teaches that “causeless hatred” among Jews was the reason for the fall of the Second Temple.

Whether or not the Prime Minister used the term, increasing criticism by American Jews of U.S. President Barack Obama signals a split in the American Jewish community.

The trigger for the growing crisis between Israel and the U.S., and among American Jews, is the issue of “settlements,” which President Obama labeled as “illegitimate” in his speech in Cairo nearly two months ago. He later included Jewish communities in eastern Jerusalem as part of the “settlement” label.

President Obama revealed this week that his White House advisor Rahm Emanuel, whose father was an Israeli and part of the underground resistance movement under the British Mandate, tells him everything he needs to know about Israel.

Emanuel also is the man who choreographed the handshake between former President Bill Clinton, former Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin and Yasser Arafat on the White House lawn.

He has pushed the president into a head-on collision with the Netanyahu government, but there is a growing opinion that he has also left the president out on a limb. Emanuel’s strategy was to demonstrate that the pro-Israel lobby American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) no longer speaks for American Jewry.

Mondoweis Blogger Philip Weis, who continually attacks a Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria and eastern Jerusalem, wrote last month, “Obama's game is to defeat the Israel lobby from within. He could not defeat the lobby from outside it…. But now he is cracking it like a nut, and counting on Jews to do the cracking.”

That strategy has turned into a wall of opposition, both in Israel, where the president’s popularity rating is near-zero, in the U.S. where Emanuel has simply ignored opposing views of major Jewish organizations, and in the normally anti-settlement American press.

Washington Post vs. Obama

The liberal and highly influential Washington Post has criticized President Obama on his policy towards Israel, and an editorial on Thursday went even further. Under the title “Tough on Israel - Why: President Obama's battle against Jewish settlements could prove self-defeating,” the newspaper’s editors wrote:

“One of the more striking results of the Obama administration's first six months is that only one country has worse relations with the United States than it did in January: Israel. The new administration has pushed a reset button with Russia and sent new ambassadors to Syria and Venezuela; it has offered olive branches to Cuba and Burma. But for nearly three months it has been locked in a public confrontation with Israel over Jewish housing construction in Jerusalem and the West Bank.”

The editorial criticized the president for his “absolutist demand” for a freeze on all building for Jews in Judea and Samaria and eastern Jerusalem. “Palestinian and Arab leaders who had accepted previous compromises immediately hardened their positions; they also balked at delivering the ‘confidence-building’ concessions to Israel that the administration seeks. Israeli public opinion, which normally leans against the settler movement, has rallied behind Mr. Netanyahu.”

The newspaper warned that any compromise by President Obama may leave him “diminished among both Israelis and Arabs.”

The turning point against President Obama may have been the meeting in the White House earlier this month with American Jewish leaders. The Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations requested a discussion with President Obama, but Emanuel decided who would attend.

He used the opportunity to attempt to create an impression of solid support for President Obama and show off the relative new J Street lobby. Unlike AIPAC, it is active politically and endorsed and campaigned for Congressional candidates who fit their agenda, which includes Israel’s surrendering all of Judea and Samaria and parts of Jerusalem that were restored to the Jewish State in the 1967 Six-Day War.

At the same time, he excluded National Council of Young Israel (NCYI) and the Zionist Organization of America (ZOA), both of which support a Jewish presence in all of Israel.

The latest confrontation on a new project for Jews in eastern Jerusalem prompted Alan Solow, chairman of the Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, to state this week, "Hundreds of Arab families have moved into Jewish neighborhoods of Jerusalem and the same right should be accorded to Jewish residents to live wherever they choose in Jerusalem. No government of Israel has or can pursue a discriminatory policy that would prevent the legitimate presence of Jews in any area of the capital."

In response, five leftist groups, including Americans for Peace Now and J Street, criticized supporters of Jews’ rights to build in the area. It added, “Unilateral actions that inflame tensions, impair negotiations and make the ultimate resolution of issues surrounding Jerusalem more difficult are unhelpful and should be avoided at this particularly sensitive moment."

While Emanuel is trying to strengthen his position, he faces another challenge on the Obama administration’s health plan. Emanuel’s brother Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel is Obama’s “health czar,” and the plan is being widely panned in American media, leaving the White House Chief of Staff with two potential failures for the President.

David

It doesn't at all. If you knew anything, you'd know that embassies are located in Tel Aviv due to the disputed nature of Jerusalem, and the countries' consulates in Jerusalem are, in the absence of a current Palestinian state, where the main rep for Palestinian business is located.

This is nothing new, and is perfectly understandable.

Howard Smigel

It appears that the U.S. Consulate General in Jerusalem is the U.S. Embassy in "Palestine." One has to click on the box about Mitchell in order to find any mention of Israel. Israel has ignored, or allowed, this situation for too long. If they allow the U.S. to get away with it they will.

In the Wilderness in America

Melanie,

This is par for the course for Obamanation. Pretend that Israel doesn't exist and maybe it will go away. Make believe that Iran will sit down and talk and not castigate you and perhaps they will. Don't mention Hamas and Hezbolah when you have press conferences and give lectures to Muslims and undoubtedly they won't exist. For the realists out there,though, it's like the old song says: "It's a Barnum and Bailey world just as phony as it could be..."

Zachary

Melanie: Your point is well taken. What does the UK Jerusalem Consulate website show?

Robbit

Utterly scandalous and disgraceful.

Michael B

"It's as if Israel and its Jewish identity have been airbrushed from history altogether."

Indeed, that's precisely what is being attempted. This is of a piece with other reports, labeled "news," originating from NGOs, emanating from salons that cater to the politically connected and executives and legislators themselves, etc. E.g., Noah Pollak in a report titled "Double Standards and Human Rights Watch: The Organization Displays a Strong Bias against Israel," excerpt:

"Over the past two weeks, Human Rights Watch has been embroiled in a controversy over a fund raiser it held in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. At that gathering, Middle East director Sarah Leah Whitson pledged the group would use donations to “battle ... pro-Israel pressure groups.”"

(Whitson maneuvered that criticism with a "racism" charge.) Pollak continues,

"The facts tell a different story. From 2006 to the present, Human Rights Watch’s reports on the Israeli-Arab conflict have been almost entirely devoted to condemning Israel, ..., demanding international investigations into its conduct. It has published some 87 criticisms of Israeli conduct against the Palestinians and Hezbollah, versus eight criticisms of Palestinian groups and four of Hezbollah for attacks on Israel. ...

"It was during this period that more than 8,000 rockets and mortars were fired at Israeli civilians by Palestinian terrorist groups in Gaza. Human Rights Watch’s response? In November 2006 it said that the Palestinian Authority “should stop giving a wink and a nod to rocket attacks.” Two years later it urged the Hamas leadership “to speak out forcefully against such [rocket] attacks ... and bring to justice those who are found to have participated in them.”"

[...]

"Meanwhile, Egypt has also maintained a blockade on Gaza, although it is not even under attack from Hamas. Human Rights Watch has never singled out Egypt for criticism over its participation in the blockade."

Such is the "news" and such are reports by HRW, Amnesty International and other NGOs. Of a piece.

Thus the derivation of yet another "consensus" that is not to be questioned on pain of being subjected to browbeatings and sneering condemnations. "Consensus" via conformity, writ large.

MadridinNJ

Dear Melanie:

While you and your right-wing zealot Israeli counterparts are so vociferously condemning all things American regarding the way that we treat your precious Israel, would you mind conveying to your friends in the Israeli government the desire of 90% of thinking Americans that Israel return all the tax money we have given it during the past 40 years? After all, given your claims about how "anti-Semitic" and "anti-Israel" (Is there any difference for you?) you claim the Obama administration is, you would think that you would at least have enough self-respect to shun our money! Howsabout it?

John Edwards

The website reflects the legal reality of the status of Jerusalem and is very much to the credit of of the US administration. East Jerusalem is part of the Occupied Palestinian Territories. As has been confirmed many times by UN Security Council resolutions and most recently by the International Court of Justice in its advisory opinion on the Separation Wall.

East Jerusalem remains occupied territory despite the continual attempts to annex and colonise it by Israel. I expect it will also become the capital of Palestine eventually under the two state settlement.

Samson

The website is in English and Arabic only - not in Hebrew. I wonder why that is...

Samson

The UK website is similar. It also describes the UK position on Jerusalem:

http://ukinjerusalem.fco.gov.uk/en/working-with-jerusalem/uk-position-jerusalem

In response, I would recommend that Israel's embassy in London describe their position on London's status as the British capital as "final status pending."

Andre

The UK web site is just as bad - full of stories about giving money to gaza and the West bank and then a map showing Gaze and WB but no Israel - no sea, nothing else. Wow!

zkharya

Try and do an "Israel/Israeli" v "Palestine/Palestinian" search on their website.

twitter

The Twitter feed is even worse: http://twitter.com/USCGJerusalem

Adam B.

Madrid in NJ, on what poll do you base your assertion that 90% of Americans feel the way you claim?

Furthermoer, you are obviously ignorant of the intelligence and other benefits the US receives from Israel. The US gives billions to countries which hate it, including Egypt. You are unhappy they help a friend. Why not make Israel an enemy, then the US can have no regional allies at all - brilliant!

Or are you so naive that you believe the Saudis are your friends?

Augustus

"I reiterated to the Foreign Minister tate US policy favors -
with respect to the Israel-Palestinian conflict - a two state solution, which would have a Palestinian state living in peace alongside the Jewish State of Israel..." said Mr Mitchell under 2009 Statements.

But that solution depends entirely on Palestinians showing
a capacity to build domestic institutions that reject and punish terror against other Palestinians and their neighbours. Over to you Mr Mitchell.

Steve Brown

Mr. Edwards:

Your comment assumes that the consulate is in (disputed) East Jerusalem. A Google map, however, shows that the consulate is in an area west of the Old City, which, I believe, Israel held before 1967 (18 Argon Road). Consequently, the explanation must lie elsewhere. In any case, if the US State Department doesn't think that their consulate for the State of Israel, perhaps they ought to think about moving it eastward.

badile

Jerusalem is actually in two states: West Jerusalem is in Israel and East Jerusalem is in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

Norman G

Just another example of the insidious anti-Jewish, anti-Israel mindset that permeates much of the Arabist State Department. Now it turns out that the FBI is also accused of this same sickness underlying it's inexplicable campaign against AIPAC and two of its officials a few years back. This perversion of sanity must stop.

Adam B.

badile, the "Occupied Palestinian Territories" (when were they "Palestinian"?) is not a state - never was.

Adam B.

Edwards, when was East Jerusalem "Palestinian"? You may consider it "occupied", but it has never been deemed exclusively "Palestinian" by any world body. Do you consider the Jewish and Armenian quarters of the Old City as being exclusively Arab as well? To which legal documents do you refer?

Anyone who has ever been to Jerusalem knows that there is no "East" and "West" Jerusalem, but rather a New and an Old City - the Old City contains the holiest site in Judaism - a site denied to Jews during the Jordanian occupation of 1948-67 (when the ancient synagogues and cemeteries were systematically trashed to world silence).

The censoring of the word Israel from the website is merely Obama's attempt to disenfranchise the Jews from their holiest city.

Linda Smith

For the historically challenged

Jerusalem has never been "Palestinian". Resolution 181 decreed Jerusalem and its surburbs were to be a corpus separatum under the UN, not to form part of any Arab state. In 1948 Jordan invaded and illegally annexed East Jerusalem, evicted its Jewish inhabitants, and then barred worldwide Jewry from visiting their religious sites in the Old City. The world was silent. The UN was silent.

The hypocrisy is deafening.

Jews were
Why don't

Linda Smith

Please disregard "Jews were Why don't on the bottom of my last post. They are not code. I forgot to delete them.

Mary Ann

It is an Obamanation!! Our great country is on a serious downward trend. Just know that many Americans love Israel and what it represents.

badile

Adam B -

The Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention stated in 2001 that:

-- In accordance with a number of resolutions adopted by the United Nations General Assembly and Security Council and by the International Conference of the Red Cross and Red Crescent, which reflect the view of the international community, the ICRC has always affirmed the de jure applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the territories occupied since 1967 by the State of Israel, including East Jerusalem. This Convention, ratified by Israel in 1951, remains fully applicable and relevant in the current context of violence. As an Occupying Power, Israel is also bound by other customary rules relating to occupation, expressed in the Regulations annexed to the Hague Convention respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land of 18 October 1907.

The short form of this is that Israel is legally recognized as the occupying power of the Palestinian Territories, including East Jerusalem, and consequently any Israeli citizen transferring into the Occupied Paelstinian Territories does so in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Since those responsible for the Fourth Geneva Convention have decreed the Palestinian Territories to be occupied any claim to the contrary by "supporters" of Israel can only be described as a lie. In fact, those who deny the occupation are aiding and abetting a war crime.

John

I also noticed this from their web site "Serving U.S. Citizens in Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza". I really would be interested to hear how all those Jews who voted Obama would explain this one away.

Yehuda

MadridinNJ, if you think that American governments give money to Israel out of altruism, and get nothing in return, you are naive.The late President Nixon loathed Jews, but when Israel needed supplies during the 1973 war, he sent them, whereas the Jew, Kissinger, delayed the shipments because he wanted Israel to bleed as a lever with which to facilitate his diplomatic manoeuvring.
Today Jewish presidential advisers like Emmanuel act against Israel's interests, while tens of thousands of American Christians stand with Israel. Why? Because Emmanuel et al think first and foremost of advancing their political careers, while these Christians think first and foremost of advancing righteousness.

solemnman

MADRID NJ
Most American aid went toward the purchase of American arms: which helped the American arms industry,which were used to defeat Russian arms,which gave American arms credibility in battle, which helped remove Russia's giant footprint from the strategicly important Middle East, which helped drain the Russian economy, which helped precipitate the Soviet collapse!!!
I call it a pretty good return.

Philip

Think that's bad? You should take a look at ours!

http://ukinjerusalem.fco.gov.uk/en/

www.undhimmi.com

Nannette

MadridinNJ, would you please note that America gives Israel LOAN GUARANTEES, which means that Israel has to supply medical, military and computer technology in exchange for these guarantees.

It's the Islamic states which are GIVEN US taxpayers money - not Israel. And FYI Israel exports medical, military and computer equipment to the USA which is worth at least three times more than the US loans Israel every year! But it would be nice to see the USA paying top dollar for Israeli technology instead of getting it at bargain basement prices!

Mladen Andrijasevic

TO: MadridinNJ

You write “While you and your right-wing zealot Israeli counterparts are so vociferously condemning all things American regarding the way that we treat your precious Israel, would you mind conveying to your friends in the Israeli government the desire of 90% of thinking Americans that Israel return all the tax money we have given it during the past 40 years?”

MadridinNJ, fortunately, most Americans do not share your point of view:

Taken from: Raid on the Sun by Rodger Claire p 239

Like the ambassador before him, Irvy had take up his post in the large corner office of the embassy. Here he had spent much of the past week packing up his personal belongings, including his beloved collection of models of Israeli fighter planes, and various mementos and honors of his ambassadorship. Cherished among these was the framed, enlarged print of a postcard he had hung on his office wall., across from his mahagony desk , where he could se it whenever he looked up. For the general, who had been surprised and stung by the criticism of the Osirak mission hurled at the time by Secretaries Haig and Weinberger and Ambassador Kirkpatrick, the missive had a special meaning. The homemade postcard was actually a blowup of a satellite photograph (ironically, KH-11 spy satellite) of al-Tuwaitha taken from space in the days of the Israeli attack in 1981. Outlined by a huge rectangle of twenty-foot-high concrete walls and barbed wire was, unmistakably, the bombed-out crater of an immense dome, its once-shiny aluminum cupola crumpled, the concrete crumbling. It was all that remained of Osirak after the Israelis were through with it .

Handwritten at the bottom of the photograph was a short note, penned a week after the coalition’s successful invasion of Iraq in 1991. It read :

“With thanks and appreciation. You made out job easier in Desert Storm.”

It was signed: “Dick Cheney.”

Harry

Could somebody tell me why our Presidents rating in Israel is important? He is the President of America. Jews in America are Americans. I hope that there is no issue there. If you remember we interned any Japanese who might have had an identity problem. Without America there would be no Israel....grow up and be nore appreciative.

Richard Pearce

I think you will find that the US Embassy for Israel is in Tel Aviv, where it has always been.

adrian

when arabs build on jewish land its called "human rights." when jews build on arab land its called "occupation."

Linda Smith

Just clicked on Consulate General of the United States. Gives the address as simply "Jerusalem"; no mention of Israel or Palestine in the address.

Somebody must have got the message.

solemnman

I'd like to remind HARRY that the u.s. put an embargo on arms to Israel, in 48, with the hope and expectation that israel,despite America's affirmative vote for its existance,would not survive.It was the arms provided by Checkloslovakia ,at the behest of Russia,that did most to ensure israel's victory and survival.America did nothing to assist israel till well after Israel's victory in 67 .

Jonathan Karmi

This is a respectful correction to ATTS. The Jerusalem consulate is on Agron Street in West Jerusalem. It's a Jewish neighbourhood close to the commercial centre. If this consulate is meant to serve the Palestinians, it should be relocated to Ramallah. The lumping together of Jerusalem with the West Bank and Gaza is certainly stupid and offensive.

Adam B.

badile, is that the same ICRC which refused membership to the Magen David Adom for several decades? I really couldn't care less.

None of this explains your claim that the Old City of Jerusalem is "Palestinian," nor your other claim that Jerusalem is in two "states."

Nick

It matters little.

Ask a random group of Americans what country Edinburgh is in and odds are 95% will say 'England'. Geography was never their strong point.

ATTS

Addendum to my earlier comment above, from a U.S. citizen residing in Jerusalem:

The US State Department forbids the Jerusalem Consulate to put "Israel" as place of issue for any US passport, birth certificate or other document.

This applies to US citizens in live in areas of Jerusalem that have always been part of Israel since the first day of Independence. It is not limited to the parts of Jerusalem that were illegally seized and held by Jordan from 1948 until it was liberated in 1967. (During whichtime it not only drove out all the Jews but denied access to Jewish holy sites to all Jews from all countries.)

So it has nothing to do with griping about alleged "occupation". It is about denial that any part of Jerusalem can belong to Israel.

C. Gee

badile:

You present these threads frequently with the "law" you believe has been established by the High Contracting Parties (not including Israel, or the United States) at their pow-wow in 2001 - at round about the same time that the UN's Durban jamboree passed the "law" that "Zionism is Racism".

Laws themselves can be illegitimate, illegally promulgated, or misapplied. The Convention's Arab-rigged declarations - which are based on a misreading of the Geneva conventions and their applicability to the Israel/Palestine conflict - is all three.

But then, those who have historically disliked a Jewish presence in their midst have judiciously passed laws that outlaw Jews, and thereby legalized discrimination, pogroms, expulsions, massacre and genocide against such outlaws.

The High Contracting Parties are following this proud tradition.

Polly Gamma

Michael B ~ I like your work!

Yehuda

Harry, you have become blinded by Arab propaganda.
The USA has a very mixed record with regard to justice in the Arab-Israeli conflict.
In the late 1940's the entire Pentagon and State Department apparatus hysterically opposed the idea of an independent Jewish state. If it hadn't been for one extremely influential man, President Harry Truman, the USA would have been one of Israel's enemies. When the Arab states invaded Israel, the US was effectively on their side by denying Israel armaments.
In the 1950's President Eisenhower and particularly his Secretary of State, Dulles, could not conceal their anti-Israel animus. Eisenhower threatened to send US troops to fight and kill Israelis in 1956.
In May 1967, even as the Arabs were massing huge armies on Israel's borders, and their fuhrers were spewing threats of genocide against the Jews, the USA "urged restraint on the part of Israel", as it habitually still does.
You're the one who needs to "grow up" and learn that international relations are not based on sentiment, friendship or altruism, but on hard, calculated self-interest.
To the degree that the USA supports Israel, it does so out of self-interest.
It appears that Obama and his American citizen of Jewish descent, Rahm Emanuel, have decided on a course of gradual disengagement from the US-Israel alliance. It is their right to do so, and I am confident that Israel will survive the eventual rupture.
In many ways, it will be beneficial for Israel to dispense with it.
Then the USA can more firmly cozy up to "allies" like the democratic Islamic states of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon etc etc Who knows, Obama and Emanuel might even embrace Ahmadinejad, as your Colombia University did recently. Good luck, Harry.
Oh, by the way, when the break comes, no doubt those intellectual giants of American academia, professors Walt and Mearsheimer, of the prestigious Universities of Harvard and Chicago, will be appointed joint Secretaries of State as a token of appreciation for their groundwork in the termination of what US leaders had once called "the US-Israel alliance."
Mazal tov.

gareth

The Dove Benedict XVI says an undivided Israelite Jerusalem is unacceptable. So does the Eagle Putin and Rooster Sarkozy.
Fortunately God fights with the sparrows, England and Israel, if history is anything to go by at any rate. I am strangely undismayed by the future and what it will hold.

james

Unfortunately, this is old news. When I was a student in Jerusalem in the mid-1980s the US consulate in East Jerusalem was for Arabs; the US consulate in West Jerusalem was for Jews.

badile

Adam B & C. Gee -

The High Contracting Parties responsible for the Fourth Geneva Convention have declared them applicable to the Occupied Palestinian Territories including East Jerusalem. Furthermore, the International Court of Justice - sister organ of the UN Security Council - has also declared the Fourth Geneva Convention applicable.

Consequently, it is a vile act of moral depravity to PRETEND that the Fourth Geneva Convention is not applicable. You are welcome to keep up the pretense as long as you like but doing so aids neither your argument nor your cause.

steve bronfman

I never liked Obama. I thought Bush has mediocre domestic policies in general but outstanding foreign policies (esp in aid to Africa and other aspects ignored my the MSM in their effort to demonize him). All the warning signs were there about Obama.

I was disappointed that so many American Jews (and others) voted for him but not really surprised, given US Jews liberal (and understandable in many cases) tendencies on domestic issues, however I was disappointed as I still believe McCain is the better man.

What I am surprised about, even shocked, is just how overt Obama's anti-Israel policies are. I thought he would at least try to be subtle so as not to put US Jews offside but he seems to be doing almost nothing right from a Jewish perspective (and American patriotic persective too). His policies on the middle-east have completely backfired in relation to Iran where he seems to be siding more with the regime than the people.

His Israeli policies also seem to have had the reverse effect from whats intended. S'audi Arabia has stated yesterday they won't negotiate with Israel. He has managed to unite Israelis behind Netanyahu because of his completely ignorant and imbalanced pro-arab policies. He has offsided a lot of his American Jewish supporters, all within the space of half a year.

Obama seems to come from the Dhimmi Carter school of US policy making. I hope he isn't as bad for the US and Israel as Carter, someone who's failed policies (eg Lebanon, Iran) we're still living with 30 years later and who seems almost obsessed with Israel bashing.

Yehuda

Badile, the hyperbole of your language and tone are dwarfed by your ignorance of the terms and applicability of The Fourth Geneva Convention, which in no way whatsoever applies to the situation of Israel,including Judea( where Jerusalem stands) and Samaria.
The Jews who reside in the communities of Judea and Samaria (west bank to you) do so voluntarily, not by compulsion; those territories were never part of a state, though they had been under illegal Jordanian occupation for 19 years to 1967; international law had required those territories to be part of the Jewish State that was the subject of The 1922 League of Nations Mandate, which the UN Charter upholds.
These truths are eternal, regardless of what politically motivated bodies say or do.

Raymond in DC

Stephen Rothbart writes, "Was this a policy of the BO administration or was it the same under Bush and Clinton?"

That US citizens born in Jerusalem cannot have "Israel" listed as the country of birth on their passports is longstanding policy. (Canada follows the same policy.)

What's not as well known is that Arabs born to US citizens *can* have "West Bank" stamped on their passports as their country of birth, but Jews born there can't have Judea or Samaria - their historic names. Note that "West Bank" was a name created in 1950 for the area west of the Jordan seized in the war by Transjordan.

ATTS

Respectful clarification of Karmi, et al --

The US Consulate in Jerusalem has two buildings. The large one, where most consulate business is done, is in an all-Arab neighborhood of East Jerusalem. It is on Shechem Road -- named after biblical Shechem. The Arabs call it Nablus Road, because the Greeks called Shechem "Neopolis" that comes out Nablus in Arabic.
Although it does supply some Citizen Services to Americans, its orientation is strongly Palestinian.

The second Consulate Building is indeed on Agron Street in a Jewish neighborhood, but it is a small office that gives only limited services, mostly dealing with certification of commercial documents. Unless it has recently changed its fuctions it does not issue passports or birth certificates or give other citizen services.

C. Gee

badile:

Does the phrase "High Contracting Parties" give you a frisson?

Yehuda

One statement in my previous post needs the following amendment: the last time that Judea and Samaria (the west bank) were part of a state was in ancient times, when they were part of the Jewish State.
In the Middle Ages and modern times, however, they have never been part of any state, but provinces of various empires, and, between 1948 and 1967 they were territories occupied illegally by Jordan.
This is only one of the multiple grounds on which The Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply there. My previous post cited the others too.

Truthtriumphs

Badile.
Until 1948, the term Palestinian more properly described the Palestinian Jews as opposed to the Palestinian Arabs, who did not particularly like the term.
eg. The Palestine Post (Jewish newspaper, Palestine Symphony Orchestra (Jewish), etc. etc.
So, as you see, in the context of ownership the term is meaningless.
BTW, are you also saying that land legally bought by the Jews in the territories, such as the Etzion bloc in the early 20th.does not belong to Jews? Is that Palestinian land in your book?
Added to which possession of most lands is as a result of conquest. You don't seem to have a problem with other countries losing territory as a result of losing wars of aggression waged by them, such as Germany in WW11.
Why is your righteous indignation in this matter exclusively reserved for the Jews.

Adam B.

badile, can pretend that the Jewish amnd Armenian quarters of Jerusalem became exclusively Arab at some point, as part of a non-existant "state" (your word) called "Palestine".

Rewriting history for your political ends won't wash.

Adam B.

Truth triumphs, exactly so. Do the same voices which oppose Jews living in Judea and Samaria shout as loudly about the loss of Prussia to Poland?

We all know the answer to that!

Seth

This has been the case since the opening of the website, I have sent them numerous emails wondering why but they refuse to respond.

badile

Continuing the pretence, Yehuda writes:

-- Badile, the hyperbole of your language and tone are dwarfed by your ignorance of the terms and applicability of The Fourth Geneva Convention, which in no way whatsoever applies to the situation of Israel,including Judea( where Jerusalem stands) and Samaria.

The United Nations Security Council Resolution 799 states that the Security Council:

-- 2. Reaffirms the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 12 August 1949 to all the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem, and affirms that deportation of civilians constitutes a contravention of its obligations under the Convention;

In its 2003 advisory opinion, the International Court of Justice wrote:

-- 101. In view of the foregoing, the Court considers that the Fourth
Geneva Convention is applicable in any occupied territory in the event of
an armed conflict arising between two or more High Contracting Parties.
Israel and Jordan were parties to that Convention when the 1967 armed
conflict broke out. The Court accordingly finds that that Convention is
applicable in the Pa.lestinian territories which before the conflict lay to
the east of the Green Line and which, during that conflict, were occupied
by Israel, there being no need for any enquiry into the precise prior status
of those territories.

Those who support the Israeli treatment of the Palestinian people fly in the face of truth when they deny the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the Occupied Palestinian Territories including Jerusalem. In the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary it is a base lie to claim that they are not applicable.

Michael B

One of the first things to understand in terms of the U.N. is that since 1948 they have passed approximately seven-hundred (700) resolutions applied to the Israel/Sunni Arab conflict. Over one-hundred (100+) of those concerned the status of refugees.

In 1948 and thereafter there were roughly 750,000 Arab refugees, most of those as a result of their own volition (i.e. most were "refugees" of their own choosing). By contrast, there were more than 900,000 Jewish refugees from Arab Muslim lands and from Iran (Persian Muslims), and these latter were genuine refugees, as a result of often severe persecutions, oppression, extraordinarily violent pogroms, etc.

Of the 100+ U.N. resolutions concerned with refugees since 1948, all of them, 100% of them, concerned themselves with the aforementioned Arab refugees.

Iow, none - as in 0.00% - of those 100+ resolutions concerned themselves with the 900,000 Jewish refugees from Arab and Persian Muslim lands.

That serves as general backdrop to help understand the U.N.'s attitude toward Israel and the Sunni Arabs in question (they are predominantly Sunni Arabs).

Linda Smith

But Badile, Jordan was an illegal occupier of the West Bank and Jerusalem. The Mandate ruling still stands that Jews can legally settle ANYWHERE in territories and Gaza.

You did not respond to the point about Etzion which the Jews legally bought in the 1890s.

Yehuda

badile, in June 1967 Israel did not occupy any territories; it liberated from illegal Jordanian occupation the land known as Judea and Samaria (west bank to you). These territories had been intended by a binding League of Nations Council Resolution of 1922 to form part of the reconstituted Jewish State,(and they included Jerusalem), but had been conquered and occupied by the Jordanian aggressors in the 1948 war. During that war the aggressors had murdered and ethnically cleansed all the existing civilian Jewish communities out of Jerusalem and the rest of Judea/Samaria, destroyed their homes and synagogues.
The only "pretence" in our posts is your denial of fact and your out- of -context assertions. It appears that the Arab crimes which I have described above do not move you; for you, they simply did not occur.

kate b

I wouldn't worry about this, it's the way it always goes before kingdoms which take on Israel come crashing down, remember these>?

Egypt
Assyria
Bablyon
Rome
Ottomans

..... pretty good Hannukah song worth learning, tho in want of a few more stanzas, I think.

Truthtriumphs

Badile.
As you are so exercised by the Geneva conventions, perhaps you would like to tell us something about what they say re. treatment of prisoners of war.
Gilad Shalit was illegally abducted across the border from Gaza, in a totally provocative act of war, by Hamas.
He has not been visited AT ALL by any official agency, be it The Red Cross, the UN, or the representatives of any neutral country. So, for the 3 years of his incarceration he has not been seen by anyone, against ALL the Geneva conventions.
Why are you silent about this, or is it because your callous indifference towards this unfortunate young man has something to do with the fact that he is a Jew?

N

Mel,

I checked the consulate website and you were totally right! I actually laughed when i read "Palestine" all over the website but not one "Israel" despite a) The consulate is IN Israel and b) Jerusalem is the Capital.

I did some research on wikipedia (ok, scanning, given that it's wikipedia) and the US Congress in 1995 declared that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. So, you are correct it is a bit weird that the the consulate website has no mention of Israel.

After reading several other posts, maybe the fact that the consulate is a Palestinian side of town makes a difference. Maybe being "pro-palestine" keeps the American and British consulates from getting bombed.

That definitely is an interesting catch Mel.

Mike Nagler

Quote:"In view of the foregoing, the Court considers that the Fourth
Geneva Convention is applicable in any occupied territory in the event of
an armed conflict arising between two or more High Contracting Parties.
Israel and Jordan were parties to that Convention when the 1967 armed
conflict broke out. The Court accordingly finds that that Convention is
applicable in the Pa.lestinian territories"

Why have they ignored the fact that since Israel and Jordan are "High Contracting Parties" who negotiated Res 242 to the conclusion that the land Jordan had annexed can then be ceded to Israel in return for peace - so predates any Arab-dominated contortion of history.

BTW - you ignored the statements in the same ICRC abortion that also stated that the actions of Palestinians in targetting civilians was terrorism.

Terry from Oz

Maybe Obama will invite Netanyahu to the White House for a beer with Hamas and sort it all out.

I fear the US electorate have elected a lemon.

GAS

It never ceases to amaze how badile and those other try-hard revisionists obfuscate historic facts and distort international law with their attempt at preying on innocent ignorance.

Linda Smith

Truthtriumphs: why is the Red Cross silent on Gilad Shalit? The boneheads who post here citing international law etc. won't get it through their thick skulls that all human beings are biased. Objectivity does not exist.

Jean

What interests me about the UK Consulate in Jerusalem is that it has huge barriers round it to stop terrorists getting at it...

Wm. Hazlitt

Truthtriumphs, Truthtriumphs? - would you be the same Truthtriumphs who made some confident assertions on a previous blog, insulted me for correcting you, and then ran away (the second time you have done so, at least to my knowledge).

"Gilad Shalit was illegally abducted across the border from Gaza, in a totally provocative act of war, by Hamas."

Several days before Hamas kidnapped Corporal Shalit from the artillery position where he and his colleagues were firing shells into Gaza, the Israeli security forces kidnapped two Palestinian brothers, one a student and one a doctor, both accused by Israel of being in Hamas.

The abduction was every bit as illegal as the abduction of Corporal Shalit. The brothers have disappeared into Israel's illegal prison system and have not been heard of since, like so many other Palestinians and Lebanese.

"Why are you silent about this, or is it because your callous indifference towards these unfortunate young men has something to do with the fact that they are...etc."

Linda Smith

Wm Hazlitt I wasn't aware that Truthtriumphs is the Red Cross.

Steve Brown

After writing the Consulate on Friday afternoon, I think I got to the bottom of this. The response:

"Dear Sir,

Thank you for your feedback on the U.S. Consulate General Jerusalem's Website. The Consulate General is an independent mission that represents the United States to the Palestinian Authority. We also provide services to American citizens in Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza. The Embassy in Tel Aviv is the U.S. diplomatic mission to Israel. The American Center in Jerusalem also provides information about the United States to the Israeli public."

So, apparently, the main function of the mission is to interface with the Palestinian Authority. Last I looked, their government was based in Ramallah.

Truthtriumphs

Wm.Hazlitt.
Your above post is all lies on stilts.
Where is your evidence?
It is you who runs away, for as far as I can see you STILL have not provided even one example of the successful negotiation with terrorists.
Your posts can only invite ridicule and derision, and the more you continue in this vein, the more you expose yourself for the Hamas apparatchick that you certainly are.

Truthtriumphs.

Adam B, Linda Smith and all the other good people.
I will be away for a week, so please ensure that the Israel-haters do not get away with their litany of untruths, not even one.
Thank you.

ahad ha'amoratsim

badile "In its 2003 advisory opinion, the International Court of Justice wrote" an opinion that has no legal standing because the court had no jurisdiction over the case, and no moral standing because the court refused to permit any defense on Israel's behalf, and the outcome was as much in doubt as in any trial in Brezhenv's USSR for political crime.

Michael B

Following up on a prior comment, The Big Arab Lie: The Political Abuse of the Refugee Issue is well worth a read.

Also, youTube has a (very good) five-part documentary covering the Jewish refugees from Arab and Persian Muslim lands (go to youTube and search on "The Forgotten Refugees").

Linda Smith

re Steve Brown's post, Why does the US think that Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel? The US doesn't have its British embassy in Birmingham.

Marcus from the USA

"
Jean
August 3rd, 2009 12:46pm

What interests me about the UK Consulate in Jerusalem is that it has huge barriers round it to stop terrorists getting at it...
"

Precautions need to be taken. Our brave British soldiers and diplomats have been the victims of Jewish terror and violence many times before in Palestine.

David

Wm. Hazlitt,

You claim: “Several days before Hamas kidnapped Corporal Shalit from the artillery position where he and his colleagues were firing shells into Gaza...”
That is factually incorrect. He was in fact a member of a tank crew that was hit by an RPG killing two other crew members (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit)

You also claim: “Israeli security forces kidnapped two Palestinian brothers, one a student and one a doctor, both accused by Israel of being in Hamas”.
That statement badly needs some context to help get a more balanced understanding .... Actually, the two men are called Osama Muamar and Mustafa Muamar. Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the two brothers were not members of the group, but nameless local Hamas activists reportedly said the pair were sons of Ali Muamar, a prominent local Hamas leader, and known to be members of the group. The brothers were transferred to Israel for interrogation and the information extracted formed the basis for the specific warning that militants would try to enter Israel through tunnels to kidnap soldiers (i.e. Schalit) stationed near Gaza.
(I'd be happy to send you the references for the above but there are so many that it really only takes a couple of seconds to verify those facts online).

Yisrael Medad, Shiloh, Israel

Pay attention to one of the programs at the Consulate, this one: Abraham Lincoln Incentive Grants Program West Bank/Gaza 2009-2010. Investing in the Future of Young Palestinians

AMIDEAST is now accepting applications for the Abraham Lincoln Incentive Grants Program, funded by the United States Department of State through the Middle East Partnership Initiative and the Consulate General in Jerusalem. The program will provide grants (financial assistance) to promising, academically qualified but economically challenged students who will be in grade eleven in the academic year 2009/2010 from both Gaza and the West Bank to assist them in competing successfully for scholarships to pursue their undergraduate studies in the United States.

And what is the basic acceptance requirement? This: ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS
...a student must meet all of the following requirements:
* Be a Palestinian resident of the West Bank, East Jerusalem or Gaza Strip.

Is "Palestinian" a definition of a geographical residency?
Or religion?
Or ethnicity?
Or race?
Or national status?
Can I ask any lawyers out there: can a Jewish resident of one of these areas apply? And if not, is that discrimination? You know, like in...racism?

Or another program there: Consulate General staff and Dr. Adel Yahya, Director of the Palestinian Association for Cultural Exchange (PACE), met to commemorate the first grant given to Palestinians under the U.S. Department of State’s Ambassador’s Fund for Cultural Preservation. The project will assist three historic villages in the West Bank – Beitin, Aboud, and Al-Jib – to preserve their cultural heritage and promote tourist destinations, while also raising awareness among residents of the villages about their cultural heritage, assisting local specialists and curators on the methods of cultural preservation, and educating the communities on the illegal procurement and sale of antiquities.

Al-Jib, you should know is the Israelite Givon and Beitin is probably Bet El - ancient Hebrew, i.e., Jewish, sites.

Can we get grants for Jewish culture? Or, at the very least, stop Arabs from destroying that heritage like at the Temple Mount or Joseph's tomb?

Michael B

Yisrael Medad's point in well taken, again pointing to a massive imbalance in how Foreign Offices and State Departments conduct their affairs in the M.E.

As to fostering historical cultural awareness, following are some numbers that broadly reflect upon another conspicuous cultural identity in the M.E., the numbers reflecting the Jewish population in the respective countries and years:

Yemen, 1944: 55,000; 2004: 100
Iraq, 1944: 150,000; 2004: 160
Egypt, 1944: 80,000; 2004: 400
Libya, 1944: 38,000; 2004: zero
Tunisia, 1944: 106,000; 2004: 1,500
Syria, 1944: 27,700; 2004: 26

Other M.E. countries could be listed in a similar vein. (All information reflecting the research of Prof. Maurice Roumani, Co-Director, Center for Middle East Studies, Univ. of Oklahoma)

Wm. Hazlitt

David, We may be talking at cross purposes. I know some of Corporal Shalit's colleagues were killed when Hamas attacked. I know I am inaacurate in calling a stationary tank an "artillery" position. The question is, What was the tank doing in the days and weeks before Hamas attacked?

On the Muammar brothers, I did not make myself clear. Corporal Shalit is a soldier in the IDF kidnapped by Hamas. As I understand it, no state of war existed at the time, so the kidnapping was clearly an illegal act. At the very least, Corporal Shalit should be treated as a POW. I think all decent people will agree he should be returned to his family without delay. The Muammar brothers are alleged to be members of Hamas, possibly even members of its military. It is illegal for Israel to kidnap them. It is illegal for Israel to interrogate them in Israel. There have been thousands of Palestinian Arabs and Lebanese processed in this way through Israel's illegal penal system.

I was replying to "Truthtriumphs". I agree that context is necessary.

Wm. Hazlitt

Yehuda, "Badile, the hyperbole of your language and tone are dwarfed by your ignorance of the terms and applicability of The Fourth Geneva Convention, which in no way whatsoever applies to the situation of Israel,including Judea( where Jerusalem stands) and Samaria.
The Jews who reside in the communities of Judea and Samaria (west bank to you) do so voluntarily, not by compulsion; those territories were never part of a state, though they had been under illegal Jordanian occupation for 19 years to 1967; international law had required those territories to be part of the Jewish State that was the subject of The 1922 League of Nations Mandate, which the UN Charter upholds.
These truths are eternal, regardless of what politically motivated bodies say or do."

You will remember from earlier discussions that what you assert cannot be sustained by the historical record. It is odd that you repeat it all again as if it is beyond dispute.

George

Wm. Hazlitt,

You ask what the tank of which Gilad Shalit was a crew member was doing prior to his kidnapping. The answer to that question is very simple. It would have been providing support to the infantry unit that was patrolling the border between Israel and the Gaza strip - in a purely defensive role.

Wm. Hazlitt

George, My information comes from Human Rights Watch and the journalist Jonathan Cook. HRW is resolutely non-partisan. Jonathan Cook is a supporter of the Palestinians.

In the period September 2005 to May 2007, but mostly after April 2006, the IDF launched 14600 shells into Gaza, killing 59 and injuring 270 mostly civilians. The Palestinians launched 2700 rockets into Israel, killing 4 and injuring 84. IDF rules of engagement permit preemptive strikes and "area denial" (in the military jargon. Corporal Shalit was one of the soldiers engaged in this operation.

Adam B.

Wm Hazlitt
Human rights watch non-partisan? I needed a good laugh...

You may be interested to learn about their recent fundraising spree in that bastion of Human rights, Saudi Arabia. One of their "selling points" was how they criticize Israel. So there you have it, there's money to be had in attacking Israel.

Wm. Hazlitt

Adam B. Read their reports and you will find they make every effort to be impartial. You seem to imply (although I am not sure you intend) that anyone who criticizes Israel's behaviour towards Palestinains and Lebanese must by definition be partial. In this instance, I doubt whether the Israeli authorities will query the figures.

George

Wm. Hazlitt

My information comes from personal knowledge. I served in a combat unit of the IDF and both my sons are currently serving as officers in combat units of the IDF.
Gilad Shalit was inducted into the IDF in July 2005, As such, he would have been in basic training until January/February 2006. Most Israeli army units rotate every four months, so the longest he could have been on the Gaza border was four months, and it could have been as little as two weeks.
All shells launched (sic) into Gaza in this period would have been from aircraft. Tanks are not used in that kind of shelling and artillery was not in use at that time.The purpose of tanks is to provide support for Israeli infantry patrolling the border, in a totally defensive role. The tank would only be permitted to open fire for one of the following reasons:
1) It was fired upon
2) The infantry unit it was supporting was fired upon
3) A unit of Palestinians was discovered in activity which could result in a threat to IDF forces (for example, laying explosives close to the border fence as part of an ambush attempt)
All these activities are purely defensive. Gilad Shalit is a soldier who was engaged in the legitimate defence of his country's border. Any attempt by you to suggest otherwise is without any basis whatsoever in fact.

Adam B.

No Hazlitt, I'm saying that if you read HMW's critique of human rights in Saudi Arabia, it is all rather vague and non-committal. Israel is, of course, another matter, and HMW comes out with the usual hysterical hateful screeching of left wing NGO's. But this is hardly surprising in light of the recent scandal about their fundraising in Saudi Arabia. They know which side their bread is buttered (and you also won't hear any cries about the work of the Saudi lobby. Apparently only Jews have lobbies). Check this out:

http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/the-path-to-prejudice-how-once-respected-human-rights-groups-lost-their-way-and-found-an-enemy-in-israel/

Steve Brown

To Linda Smith:

The U.S. doesn't view Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel. Under a law signed during the Reagan era, the U.S. recognized Jerusalem as the capital and committed to place its embassy there. However, a point in the law allows the President to sign a waiver, delaying the implementation of that law (ostensibly for foreign policy purposes). Sadly, every president since the law was signed has availed himself of the waiver. In any case, your question is a fair question, given the location of this particular consulate.

badile

The 2009 Human Rights Watch World Report opens its chapter on Saudia Arabia with:

-- Human rights conditions remain poor in Saudi Arabia. International and domestic pressure to improve human rights practices remained feeble, and the government undertook no major reforms in 2008. The government systematically suppressed the rights of 14 million Saudi women and an estimated 2 to 3 million members of minority Shia communities, and failed to protect the rights of foreign workers. Thousands of people received unfair trials or were subject to arbitrary detention. Curbs on freedom of association, expression, and movement, as well as a lack of official accountability, remain serious concerns.

The Annual Report opens its chapter on Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) with:

-- Israel's blockade of Gaza and restrictions on movement to protect illegal West Bank settlements, along with indiscriminate Palestinian rocket attacks on Israeli towns and serious abuses by Fatah and Hamas against each other's supporters, were major components of the human rights crisis in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories in 2008.

It seems to me that HRW somehow manages to muster much harsher criticism of Saudia Arabia than it chooses to muster over Israel. The reality is that, without the watchful eye of human rights NGOs like HRW and Amnesty International, Israel would have completed the ethnic cleansing so desired by those who believe Greater Israel to be the Jewish birthright.

Wm. Hazlitt

George, Thank you for interesting reply. It is good to have someone with direct experience keeping these debates honest.

"To shell Gaza between September 2005 and November 2006, the IDF used an Israeli-modified version of the US M109A3 howitzer called the Doher. The original US-built M109 was produced in 1963; Israel introduced its model in 1993. Seven crew members man the 28-ton, self-propelled artillery, which has a ground speed of up to 50 kilometers per hour. It is normally fired as an indirect fire (out of the line of sight) weapon. In most cases, the crew fires a marking shell and adjustment shells until they hone in on a target. It normally fires one shell per minute, but can fire up to four shells per minute for up to three minutes.[140]
The IDF's most common ammunition for these howitzers was a 155mm high-explosive artillery shell, usually the M107. Israel Military Industries, a state-owned arms producer and exporter, produces the M107 shell, although Israel has also imported 155mm shells from the United States. The M107 shell weighs about 44 kilograms and measures about 60.5 centimeters in length and 155 millimeters in diameter at its widest point. It has a range of up to 18 kilometers. If loaded with TNT, the shell spreads about 2,000 fragments in all directions. Some shells do not explode on impact and become potentially explosive duds.[141]
M107 shells are extremely deadly weapons. The expected lethal radius for a 155mm high explosive projectile is reportedly between 50 and 150 meters and the expected casualty radius is between 100 and 300 meters.[142] IDF officials have said that the error radius for a 155mm shell is usually 25 meters.[143] Therefore, if shells are lobbed as close as 100 meters to populated areas, as allowed under an IDF policy discussed below, or even closer, as sometimes happened, it greatly increases the likelihood of civilian casualties.
The "definite military advantage" offered by the 155mm artillery strikes against rockets was often dubious.[144]..." HRW "Indiscriminate Fire" (A report on the activities of Palestinian militants and the IDF, which concludes that both acted in 2006 in ways that breach international law.) I have also read reports that Israel used gunships as well. Aircraft at the time were said to be used to create sonic booms but not to launch missiles (I do not know whether that is so or not).

I would obviously not pretend to have your close personal experience of the IDF. Just as an example, I would not know whether the term "tanks" in the reports I was using refers to "self-propelled artillery" or not. I was relying on the work of HRW and others, not on any personal knowledge of military hardware and procedures. I do not intend any personal slight whatsoever when I say that I still do not know whether your particular personal experience outweighs the wider research of such bodies as HRW. 14000 artillery shells seems to the layman an awful lot in a purely defensive action against fewer than 3000 Qassam rockets.

Could I just repeat, for the absence of doubt, that I think Gilad Shalit's inhumane captivity should end immediately and he should be returned to his family.

I would welcome your thoughts (but well understand if you do not feel like pursuing the matter).

Best wishes,
"Wm. Hazlitt"

Adam B.

badile, your charge of "ethnic cleansing" is without foundation. The Arab populations both within Israel and in Judea and Samaria have continued to grow unhindered - a strange kind of "ethnic cleansing". However, the Jewish populations in many Arab countries have all but disappeared. Iraq once had a large Jewish population (a quarter of Baghdad was Jewish not so long ago) - now there is not one single Jew in the whole of Iraq. Those who start screaming and claiming that Israel is "ethnically cleansing" are usuallly completely silent about the ethnic cleansing of Jews - yourself included.

Wm. Hazlitt

Adam B., I have looked back over previous threads, and notice not for the first time that you abandon discussions in a whim (or when the going gets tought?) and then reappear in another thread as dogmatic and aggressive as ever. Is this deliberate strategy or just the exigencies of work etc.?

Michael B

Wm. Hazlitt,

Physician, heal thyself.

As to HRW being "resolutely non-partisan" (sic!), NGO Monitor has completed its own report, here is a summary of some of the more salient points and a link to the report as a whole.

Charles de Lafayette

Nobody here,
except we Jews.

Wm. Hazlitt

Michael B. As you have walked away from a debate more than once I am not sure what you mean by your "Physician heal thyself" remark.

Are you putting forward NGO Watch as an impartial arbiter who will prove that HRW is not impartial in its reports on Israel and the Palestinian Arabs?

Wm. Hazlitt

Michael B., ...Hello...Are you there? ... I rest my case.

Adam B.

Derek, whose law should apply in so called "East" Jerusalem (which includes the Jewish and Armenian Quarters, if not Israel's?

Adam B.

Sorry, wrong thread!