The Goldstone show-trial

Jason from AZ

At this point in time, just like the Durban conferences, is there really any serious person or group with even a modicum of intelligence who still takes the UN and its findings seriously any more (aside from the Obama administration). Everyone knows the fix is in - it is always in when it comes to Israel.

It would only be news if the commission found that no war crimes were committed.

Of course, all this is a side show. What is really a threat to Israel and mankind is Iran and its nuke program. And the US, UK, and the rest of the UN are not prepared to do a darn thing about it.

James C

Where is the investigation into human rights abuses on Iran. The tortures,the murders the suppression of freedom of speech.

Tancred

Lets hope that Iran and the Taliban both get bombs soon.

The sooner we can stop messing about and wake up to the real threats to life, liberty and happiness the better.

Do they run courses in lieing, whining, whinging, victimhood and terror in all islamic schools.

Doesn't anyone understand that the UN is not an organisation of high moral standing - just a stage upon which nasty dictators can strut their stuff at the West's expense.

Shaun Harbord

Superb.

Stephen Rothbart

Well done Melanie for your exposing these charlatans.

It's interesting that many of the people casting judgement on the State of Israel, and especially the present administation in the White House, come from countries that are themselves occupiers and builders of illegal settlements.

Unlike the Jews of Israel, who always had a presence in the region and originated there, and who were granted the land of Israel by a UN charter, the United States was itself founded on no legal basis.

'Settlers' from all around Europe sailed to a land belonging to the indigenous people, and built settlements there. They attacked and stole land from the natives, and passed laws made by themselves, without any input from the real owners of the land on which they had settled.

Now 250 years later, a man without any history of connection to the local people in whose country he is now the President, has the nerve to tell the Jews of Israel that they cannot settle on land they have owned or purchased from the Palestinians, who themselves are originally from the Gulf region of the Middle East not indigenous.

Other countries, like Russia, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Egypt etc. also have colonised and invaded other peoples lands and also sit in judgement of Israel.

We all know that the UN and the HRW are institutionally anti-Semitic, so there is no surprise at the kangaroo nature of this 'Court' of justice, but it's time that these critics in the free world stopped being such hyprocrits. The only difference between them is the timing of their histories.

In Israel's case, a people were granted their land in Israel by legal means, 60 years ago. The other countries invaded and conquered their fiefdoms by decree of superior arms against weakened forces. Some did this also 60 years ago, some longer, some much, much longer, but they have all done it and prospered from it.

The Jews of Israel came to this former home of theirs because of centuries of oppression by the peoples of some of these countries I mentioned here. They wanted to live in peace. They were granted their land by legal means, attacked instantly but managed to prevail. The lands they won at war they kept because their enemies refused to make peace treaties with them in return for their land, so now the Jews are 'occupiers.'

The world does want to ever let the Jews live in Peace.

Jews are the so called 'Chosen' people, but it seems what they have been chose for is everlasting persecution from a shameless and hypocritical world full of bigots and racists.

DOV KORET

I've yet to see Factual proof that the State of Israel is occupying any else's land. Based on what? has any land mass become 'palestinian territory.'
Israel's weekness is both to allow these terms to be used & to use the terms themselves. DK

Augustus

The Goldstone mission to the Gaza Strip was exclusively accompanied by Hamas leaders and members throughout its time there. Hamas repeatedly refuses to adhere to the three principles of the Diplomatic Quartet: The commitment to non-violence; the recognition of Israel's existence; and the acceptance of previous agreements and obligations. They clearly violate these principles and policy.

The misconception, so clearly pervasive in the United Nations, is that culpability in the conflict between Hamas and Israel must be determined by simply comparing the amount of deaths and casualties on each side, and then reaching a verdict. Israel must be the guilty party because the numbers are always so much higher than Hamas casualties. But this absurd argument implies no quantity or quality of Israeli suffering from these terrorist crimes. Choosing to qualify Hamas rockets fired into Israel as 'crude' ignores the terror of ten thousand rockets fired by a terrorist group, sworn to Israel's destruction, and playing Russian roulette with its women and children. Which sovereign country in the whole of the United Nations would tolerate such agression? None.

Hamas committed a double war crime: They deliberately targetted Israeli civilians whilst hiding behind their own.
They and their Muslim sponsors were fully responsible for the tragic consequences of Operation Cast Lead.

It is precisely because it is so hard for sane people to deny that Israel acted in self-defense that the last refuge of those who have made it their mission to always blame Israel is to misuse the charge of disproportionality. But where were the voices of the UN Human Rights Council when those thousands of rockets were being fired, day after day for eight years? Where is the credibility of those who chose silence? The blame-Israel voices always deny self-defense under one or another pretext.

Jack Kuper

It would seem that Hitler is alive and well and residing at the United Nations.

Terry, Eilat - Israel

The propaganda war against Israel is not about facts, historical accuracy, impartiality, objectivity, or any concept of fairness. That's why it is called a propaganda war. No other country is subjected to this - the closest is perhaps the anti-Americanism that is similarly shared by the Israel-bashers of the world.
The basis of this is irrational, not different really from the medieval belief in the Devil. You cannot fight irrationality with facts unfortunately.

YA

People in the UK should be grateful to Israelis, as they show an example of fearless resistance to that modern Mordor. Especially for the widely broadcasted images of mosques bombed to rubble. To the contrast, Britain tolerates more and more of that stuff. Despite first thing every imam says in first cermon in new mosque is "we'built mosque here, it is forever. This is Islamic land". As things are developing in the UK, there will be "Gaza Strips" in Harrow, Birmingham and Luton very soon. Hate will be grown, people kidnapped, and rockets will fly. And then a realization will come whose land is "occupied", and how to appease these aggressors - in a tolerant, proportional, civilized way. Operation Cast Sh@@, or what else we can do.

EDDIE

I am convinced that the greatest enemies of the Jewish state are a number of Jews who pose a double danger because they can be turned out to
verify the veracity of many of the biggest libels cooked up against the Jewish people .

GeoffM

James C says:-

Where is the investigation into human rights abuses on Iran. The tortures,the murders the suppression of freedom of speech.?

Can I add to that list? Country and victims?

Iraq - Christians
Saudi Arabia - Christians
Egypt - Coptic Christians
Pakistan - Christians, Hindu's, Sikhs
Turkey - Orthodox and Roman Christians
Kosovo - Christians

Anyone see a pattern here? The perpetrators and the victims?

Where is the UN? More to the point where are the Western nations in demanding action?

Oh. They are all supposed to be our allies in the War on Terror. And yet they terrorise non-muslims.

What kind of a crazy mixed up world have OUR politicians created? We could, if we wanted, stop all the islamic violence in a couple of years by getting the big sticks out.

But no, we will allow these islamic countries to take the piss and walk slowly into our twilight as a race, culture and civilisation.

Ah well, I can always take comfort from the prospect of a world that will sink back into the slime after the West and it's people have gone from this world.

Perhaps the best punishment we can bestow upon the rest of the world - a couple of thousand years of post apocalypic hell.

Meanwhile Gordon Brown has asked our SAS to train the Libyan Special Forces.......The same people who funded and supplied the IRA campaign of terror in the UK.

You couldn't make it up.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

And Goldstone is a Jew. What a despicable creature !

roger

Gaza and the West Bank (whoops...I mean Judea and Samaria) are indeed occupied.....by Arabs.

John Richardson

Dear M.P.

'Jason from AZ' is correct you know.
I personaly do not think that sensible intelligent people have EVER taken the UN at it's (Officials) own estimation of itself.Er if you see what I mean.
You erudition is thus somewhat wasted on these wasters.

Might I gently suggest that Islamic hatred of Jewish people/Israel is impervious to even your detailed well reference prose ?

Why not instead write about how pompus these mediocraties are ?
It might be fun.
Taking them at all seriously will just make you grumpy.
Best wishes.

Cynic

"Goldstone himself is utterly compromised by accepting the terms of this rigged mandate which is an affront to justice. "

Just as was John Dugard's UN mission.

Both professors of law in South Africa and a disgrace to integrity and honesty.

Cynic

Melanie,

You should have included more info about HRW and its operatives Stokes anti Jewish history and Garlasco's collection of Nazi artifacts and his wearing of t-shirts with "das Eisene Kreuz" covered in several blog posts by solomonia.com/blog, The Augean Stables and others.

Derek BLADES

Augustus, 11 September, wrote that a simple count of the casualties on both sides doers not reflect the "quality of Israeli suffering from these terrorist crimes. Choosing to qualify Hamas rockets fired into Israel as 'crude' ignores the terror of ten thousand rockets fired by a terrorist group, sworn to Israel's destruction, and playing Russian roulette with its women and children."

I suppose one aspect that Augustus might wish to consider is that those living in the villages targeted by Hamas are free to move elsewhere if they value the lives and well-being of their women and children. Before launching Cast Lead the IDF made certain that the Gazans would have no escape from their murderous dime and phosphorous artillery and the air and naval bombardments. I am sure that is one of the disgraceful tactics used by Israel that will feature in the UN Report.

Later in the same piece he claims that “it is so hard for sane people to deny that Israel acted in self-defense”. Not at all, Augustus. I believe that Cast Lead was an Israeli election tactic timed to coincide with the Washington inter-regnum. Truces had earlier been negotiated with Hams to restrain rocket fire and the same could have been done again if Israel was really concerned about Israeli lives lost to Hamas rockets.

Maurice, MD

It is my theory -- admittedly only a theory -- that the Professional Human Right Champions like to adopt clients who are in wretched conditions.
The Noble-Hearted can then patronize these clients from their own heights of superiority.
And feel very moral about it.

But they cannot patronize Israel and Israelis, whose accomplishments in many fields rank at or near the top of world listings.

And thus fit only to be attacked.

Augustus

Derek BLADES, I think we all know where we stand with your opinions, but I don't think we need worry about UN Reports concerning the firing of white phosphorus munitions. They were deployed as a smokescreen to protect Israeli forces from the Hamas anti-tank crews. The IDF's use of such projectiles, which are commonly found in the arsenal of other armed forces worldwide, is lawful for the purpose. However, Hamas have consistently breached the laws of armed conflict and war crimes:
- Deliberate rocket attacks against Israel population centres.
- Abuse of civilian sites as a cover for military operations.
- Misuse of medical facilities and ambulances.
- Booby-trapping of civilian areas.
- Blending in with civilians and using them as human shields.
- Exploitation of Palestinian children for war-mongering purposes.
- Interference with humanitarian relief efforts.

Joe

"Jason from AZ commented
September 11th, 2009 6:42pm
At this point in time, just like the Durban conferences, is there really any serious person or group with even a modicum of intelligence who still takes the UN and its findings seriously any more (aside from the Obama administration). Everyone knows the fix is in - it is always in when it comes to Israel."

Sorry must disagree on the above comment. It isnt just the Obama administration, but the BBC, Guardian and the entire liberal left establishment that hold any utterances by the UN
sacrosanct

John Richardson

.......and fuuurthermore !

I've just seen your article on BBC bigotry from 9th Sept.
You see ?
This is what I mean !
When I still sat up for 'Newsnight' it was hard to decide what was most annoying about it's output.
1) The pristine stupidity of ALL of it's
younger presenters/journalists.

2) The lazy,clunky, transparent propaganda.

3) The dishonesty.

Then I realised it was all three and continuing to subject myself to it became a reflection ON myself.
Here is a secret.
NOBODY IS TUNNING IN ANYMORE.
I remember hearing about 170,000 people actually watch 'Newsnight'(true).
When we consider the BBC employs about 3.2 million people in London alone,that puts it's 'audience' into perspective.

"I'm a Journalist" explains M.P.
"I have to look see what they are up to !"
Nonsense.
Unless that is you can honestly point to ANY subject or topic that the BBC has enlightened or informed you about in the last few years.
See my point ?

The BBC is bad for you.
Give it up !

George

Derek Blades,

1) So if your country is being attacked, the answer is not to defend your country but simply to tell people to move?

2) Please explain exactly how Israel "made certain that the Gazans would have no escape from their murderous dime and phosphorous artillery and the air and naval bombardments". The last time I checked a map, Gaza had a border with Egypt.

3)The only connection between the timing of the Cast Lead operation and the new POTUS was the date it ended. It was obvious to all of us here in Israel that Ehud Olmert and Tzipi Livni would not let the fighting go past Inauguration day. The need to start the operation was dictated solely by the behaviour of Hamas.

Derek BLADES

John Richardson, 12 September, tells us that " …the BBC employs about 3.2 million people in London alone..."

That is an astonishing, even frightening, figure!

The total population of the 32 London Boroughs plus the City of London is now 7.7 million. According to John's figure, for every hundred men, women and children living in London, 41 of them are working for the BBC. Hmmm. Makes you think!

Derek BLADES

Augustus, 12 September, tells me that ".... white phosphorus munitions..... were deployed as a smokescreen to protect Israeli forces from the Hamas anti-tank crews."

White phosphorous is used to illuminate a battle-field not to hide things. It produces light not smoke.

I like your reference to "Hamas anti-tank crews". If there were any they cannot have been very effective. IDF tanks returned from Gaza with hardly a scratch on their paint-work.

Larry

"beyond the pale" doesn't begin to cover it. Goldstone's crime here is in fact as great as any "Jewish" traitor in history, simply unsurpassed.

Ann

"Derek Blades,

1) So if your country is being attacked, the answer is not to defend your country but simply to tell people to move?"

Yup. That's what Blades and all the other Jew-haters are telling to the Jews in their own country: if you are attacked, go elsewhere. And so on. And so on.

Blades is simply incapable of grasping the basic fact, that the Jews are not taking orders from him: they are taking steps to deal with their aggressive enemies. This is 2009, Blades, not 1942. Suck on it.

John Richardson

Joe 12-09-2009, 9:23pm

Hi Joe,
as for those you mention regarding the UN as sacrosanct two things occur.Well,they are entirely wrong about everything else that matters, so who gives a toss what they think ?
Secondly,they remain terminally partial i.e. who complains about China's forced abortions or Saudi racism regarding Mecca ?

I say it is spiritually dangerous to take these people at their own estimation of themselves.
You end up discussing 'gay' rights.
Or the 'debt of slavery' owed by the white world (usually only Britain and America).
Or America's 'carbon footprint'.
Or another form of twisted,inverted logic.
You will find yourself better informed(as I have),less stressed even happier if you simply stop the BBC habit.They lie.
As for the others you mention,I do not think they even take themselves seriously anymore.....but that's another story.

Cheers.

malcolm

Ann

Those who criticise Israel are not Jew Haters. Many are Jews. It is the damage done to Israel at home and abroad by its criminal government and its hysterical supporters such as yourself that we hate. Don t confuse the issue.

The absolute truth of events that minority groups such as yours seek to impress upon world opinion is nothing more than that. Propaganda.

Cast Lead left a cloud of international disgust over Israel's reputation. For god reason. Don t pretend that you can change that with your winging and your revisionist history.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Ms. Phillips: Once and for all, this isn't a kangaroo court. You want to know what a kangaroo court is, read Bret Harte's short story, "Tennessee's Partner." A kangaroo court is a procedure thrown together, on the spur of the moment, say by soldiers on a battlefield or convicts in a prison. This is a star chamber proceeding. I hope the idiot delegates in the U.N. General Assembly, particularly those from European states, realize that once they allow this precedent to be set, once its a war crime calling for a star chamber proceeding if ISREAL shoots back at Arabs, it will be a war crime calling for a star chamber proceeding if FRANCE or SPAIN shoot back at Arabs.

Miranda Rose Smith

So Christine Chicken thinks that the rocket attacks on Israel, in terms of scale and effect, do not amount to an armed attack entitling Israel to rely on self defence. When Arabs start shooting at London, how many rocket attacks will amount to an armed attack entitling England to rely on self defence?

Augustus

Derek BLADES, from Wikipedia:

"White phosphorus (WP) is a flare AND smoke-producing agent and an incendiary agent...The main utility of white phosphorus
munitions is to create smokescreens to mask movement from the enemy, or to mask his fire."
(BTW: phosphorus, not phosphorous)

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Imagine the UN and all the lefty organisations will have to look after the muslim people who been abused and badly treated by their own terrorist militia leaders who they voted for, the UN and all will have millions of refugee from Islamic countries to support in the future and that doesn't mean it is Israel's fault, don't blame Israel but blame Al-Hamas, Al- Shabaab, Al-Qaeda etc

Wm. Hazlitt

George,
1) It is widely acknowledged that sub-national groups in extremis have a right to self-defence. I refer you for example to the preamble to the UN declaration of human rights: "Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression..." Tell me why, in a given period, Israel's right to fire 14000 shells trumped Hamas' right to fire 3000; why Israel's right to kidnap thousands trumped Hizballah's to kidnap three; why Israel's right at any time to self-defence trumps the Palestinians'.

2) Egypt's craven role is often cited here as if it absolves Israel. You surely know that Egypt, like Israel, is a client of the US, and knows when obedience is in its interest. You surely also know that the regime in Egypt views the Muslim Brotherhood and its offshoots as a threat to its survival.

3) It is a matter of record that at the end of last year Hamas was observing the ceasefire and seeking its extension. This was confirmed to the Israeli cabinet by the security services (and confirmed to the Israeli press by individuals present at the meeting). It is also a matter of record that the Israelis were planning the operation in detail for months before they launched it while publicly admitting that the ceasefire was holding. The timing of the start of the operation had everything to do with when Israel was successful in provoking a casus belli (as so often in Israeli military history).

Wm. Hazlitt

Margaret Muller-Johansson, Could you clarify for me: is it that Hamas etc. are to be held entirely responsible for the blockade of Gaza, the destruction of its infrastructure, and the impoverishment and shelling of its people; that Israel only ever retaliates (even when it retaliates preemptively); and that the UN etc. are to look after the human detritus of Israel's retaliation, not because of humanitarian considerations but because of...what?

While I have your attention:

- How does a return to the 1st century help combat terrorism?
- How does atheism turn a person into a wall?
- When you said that you would prefer to believe any religion rather than none, had you studied the beliefs and practices of all the religions yu would prefer to atheism, and does "any religion" include Islam?
- When you discover a "Lefty" is secretly a Muslim, does said "Lefty" cease to be a wall, or do you simply cease to perceive said "Lefty" as a wall; and how do you tell the difference?
- How are agnostics to be distinguished from atheists and believers - they are clearly not fully human like believers, nor complete walls like atheists - are they perhaps trellises? How do you feel about classifying Ms. Phillips as a trellis?

There are other questions, but these are enough for now. If you remember, you informed us through your friend that you would answer.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Malcolm: "Operation Cast Lead left a cloud of international disgust over Israel's reputation. With god reason." I believe you mean "good reason," you (sic) man.
What good reason? Jews were trying to stay alive?

George

Mr Hazlitt,

1) The Palestinians have the same right to self defence as do the Israelis. However, I find it hard to define firing over 3,000 shells at innocent women and children as self defence.

2) I am fed up of hearing that it is solely Israel's responsibility to provide food, drugs, electricity, building materials, etc. for the Palestinians of Gaza. The Gazans are free to buy wherever they want. If Israel chooses not to sell to them, that's OK. Also, I somehow doubt that the US gave the Egyptians instructions to close the border with Gaza.

3) Well obviously Israel planned the operation in advance. That is the nature of military operations. However, I think that you and I will have to agree to differ as to who broke the ceasefire. However, from first hand evidence, I can tell you it wasn't Israel. Yes, I know - assertions again. You can choose to believe me or you can choose not to. I have no reason to believe that my son lied to me.

Simon W

if Goldstone is an israeli him self, he has an israeli citizen ship and teachs at israeli university how can the victims trust him?

Ann

"It is also a matter of record that the Israelis were planning the operation in detail for months before they launched it"

It's called being prepared. It's what military planners do: they are ready for all eventualities. I take it you have never been an army officer. I wonder whether you have ever even set foot inside a military installation.
Nobody is denying 'Palestinian' right to self-defence. Launching 3000 unprovoked rockets against Israel is NOT 'self-defence'.
Try again.

Stephen Rothbart

Well as we all know, the recent attack on fuel tankers in Afghanistan that killed many civilians and was ordered by German officers with US aircraft doing the attacking, along with the collateral human damage of Obama's drone attacks in Pakistan has also led to a worldwide condemnation, with HRW and UN people are going to call in Mary Robinson and George Galloway to conduct a war crimes enquiry chaired by Annie Lennox. Oh wait! Hold on, I have just heard from the BBC that no such war crimes enquiry has been ordered. It appears no Jews were involved. Sorry guys. But I hope for the sake of Goldstone giant Saudi backed salary, a further Jewish atrocity will come along very soon.

manuel escott

The true death and injury toll from the Gaza asault may never be known. But Israel' "official figures are questionable. Itdoes not have a good record on truth-telling.Understandably so. Nor would I accept the estimates of NGOs,the U.N..and certainly not Hamas. What does seem clear to me is that for political reasons(the run-up toa gneral election)Israel's rulers opted for lowIsraeli casualty figures. Thus the devastating airnand ground bombardment and the noted reluctance of Israeli commanders for infantry use. As for infamingfurther anti-Israel feelingGaza ,sadly, as alienatedthousands of Jews.

John Richardson

Hello Derek Blades,

I was joking mate.....obviously the BBC couldn't employ that many people...to reach that figure, they'd be obliged to consider white heterosexual English Men.

'n that ain't gonna happen.

John Edwards

The amusing aspect of this post is that Melanie cites the IDF as an authoritative source for the Palestinian casualty figures during Israel's attack on Gaza. Probably the most biased source of the lot.

Still no mention of the B'Tselem report on the 252 dead Palestinian children.

I note that a group of Canadian pro-Israel lawyers wrote a letter to Chinkin as well. Obviously another diversionary campaign going on with the usual ad hominem attacks.

I am more interested in what the report will actually say.

Questor

John Edwards says:

"The amusing aspect of this post is that Melanie cites the IDF as an authoritative source for the Palestinian casualty figures during Israel's attack on Gaza. Probably the most biased source of the lot".

Melanie sets out her reasons for believing the UNHRC and its upcoming report to be biased. She cites the IDF as a credible source and its report as being credible.
You say that you think that to be 'amusing' and so my questions to you are:

[1] I'd be interested to hear youe response to the specific points that Melanie makes about the bias of the UNHRC.

[2] Can you give specific reasons why you think the IDF's report is inaccurate or misleading? (Of course we know the Israelis are biased because we know that they're involved in a war! But that doesn't automatically mean that their reports are either innacurate or deliberately misleading). What is it that you know about the reporting accuracy of the IDF that Melanie doesn't?

When you reply, could I ask you to please stick to answering the specific questions I asked (i.e. Please no tangental accusations or commentary). I'm sure that you would more than likely give a straight answer to my questions anyway, but you'll probably agree that that doesn't always happen on these posts!
Thanks.

Terry of Oz

Melanie, I didn't even rad this article. Not because I disagree with you, very much ot the contrary.

The biggest step forward the world can take towards re-establishing civilised standards, at this moment in time, would be to wind up the evil, neo-fascist un. Close it. Shut down its institutions. Sack its useless bunch of Jew hating, antidemocratic pen pushing neo nazi wastes of space.

Israel should leave this circus right now. If the western democracies have any backbone left, so should they.

Wm. Hazlitt

George,
1) I am glad we agree that the Palestinians have a right to self-defence. Where we disagree is that Israel's actions are always provoked and always in self-defence and always carefully targetted.

2) A look at the policies of Egypt and Israel ought to be enough to convince anyone that the people of Gaza are not free to buy the necessities of life wherever they want. It has been the deliberate policy of Israel for several decades to make the Palestinians dependent on it. What you say strikes me as wilful ignorance.

On relations between Israel, Egypt and the US, read a US Congressional Service report of February 2008, "The Egypt-Gaza Border and its Effect on Israeli-Egyptian Relations." This reflects the official story, but still provides sufficient hints of the truth.

3) I think there is a difference between the general staff preparing contingency plans and preparing and implementing an actual campaign. It would be expensive and detrimental to Israel's defence to have its forces mobilised to meet each and every contingency all the time.

On who broke the ceasefire, I do not for a minute doubt your son's testimony, I do question whether he is in a position to say. Many things led up to hostilities. They are difficult to piece together and we have to rely on such evidence as there is from many different sources, including the Israeli security services and cabinet as reported in the Israeli press. Was Hamas guiltless? - of course not. It was clearly culpable as well as rash. Was Israel guiltless? - of course not, as the evidence confirms.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Terry of Oz, hear hear ! on all your remarks about that gangster org. the UN, particularly the recommendation that Israel should quit !

John Edwards

I think the mainstream human rights organisations have rather more credibility than "investigations" by the IDF. For example, the IDF has refused to provide B'Tselem with the list of fatalities to back up which their claims that most of the dead in Gaza were militants involved in resistance activities.

The IDF did not collect evidence or interview witnesses in Gaza. For example, the military claimed 89 minors under the age of 16 died, whereas B'Tselem visited homes, gathered death certificates, photographs and testimonies relating to all 252 children under 16 and has the details of 111 women over 16 killed.

On the question of the UN HRC Fact Finding Mission. I have a copy of the mandate in front of me. It states "to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law that might have been committed at any time in the context of the military operations that were conducted in Gaza during the period from 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009, whether before, during or after."

In other words the mandate is quite different from that which Melanie alleges.

As Richard Goldstone stated on his appointment "It is in the interest of all Palestinians and Israelis that the allegations of war crimes and serious human rights violations related to the recent conflict on all sides be investigated. It is my hope that the findings of this mission will make a meaningful contribution to the peace process in the Middle East and to providing justice for the victims". A very reasonable statement.

Contrast that with Ehud Barak who declared "The state of Israel does not need an investigating committee it knows it has the most moral army in the world".

A reasonable person might ask Why does Israel not co-operate with the Mission if there is nothing to hide?

Mailman

John Edwards,

Simply because the outcome is already guaranteed.

Israel will be found guilty by the commission.

Mailman

Questor

John,

There must surely have been some methodology to the IDF's own research?! How else could they have arrived at a figure?

Anyway, I appreciated your response and will look out for your posts in future.

Thanks.

Augustus

John Edwards, if in international humanitarian law Israel would, in retrospect, be accused of making too little distinction between military and civilian targets, would you not agree that such a charge would be bound to be contradicted by the well-known and diverse Israeli efforts to spare civilian lives? In such a densely populated area as the Gaza Strip, surely many more civilians would have been killed
if Israel had not made these efforts to warn civilians, use expensive high precision weapons, as well as gathering information on Hamas targets well in advance of the operation, and by initiating
daily ceasefires.

Adam, UK

I see this article as yet another disgraceful piece of pro-Israeli/anti-Palestinian propaganda and an insult to anyone with a modicum of intelligence or humanity. The simple fact is that Israel DOES still dominate and oppress Gaza and ALL the Illegally Occupied Territories.

I wear my colours with honour and stand with the growing numbers of brave humanitarian people including millions of Jews from Israel and around the world, who denounce the Illegal, Racist, Brutally Oppressive and Unjust Israeli regime of Apartheid and Collective Punishment of the Palestinian people.

Keeping Gaza sealed is one of the most inhuman, sickest political acts I have seen in my lifetime. All because Israel thinks they elected the wrong people who must be deposed - and Israel says they support democracy.... apparently only when the right people are elected...

Larry D

the truth will out, and this obviously has certain people worried

no justice, no peace...

wonderer

Wm. Hazlitt
September 14th, 2009 10:07am. In para 2 you say Israel's policy was to make the Gazans dependent on it for the necessities of life. You forget that an advanced market gardening industry was left in place in Gaza when Israel left. The Palestinian response was to loot and trash the lot, before the Hamas coup btw.

Truthtriumphs

Wm.Hazlitt.
Why do you think that one of the first acts of the PA, after the Israeli unconditional withdrawal from Gaza, was to destroy the income-producing greenhouses left behind (and paid for by Jewish donors), as well as trashing a whole urban infrastructure inherited from the settlers.
Hardly the behaviour of the starving and impoverished, wouldn't you say?

And while we're at it, what happens to all those billions of dollars of foreign aid and monies from NGOs, and an assortment of international charities, which, if actually spent on those for whom they were intended, would suffice to buy each Gazan a mansion with swimming pool.
So where is that money, where?
Or will you blame Israel for its embezzlement too?
And while we're about it, don't you remember that Egypt placed the blame for the war squarely on Hamas for refusing to stop the rocket attacks?
But then why should Hamas not rocket Israel when it knows it can rely on the substrate of western antisemitism, especially in Europe, to give it the propaganda victory it craves.

You might find that you are scoring an own goal, for one day, when the Muslims in Europe are numerous and powerful enough,(in the very near future) it will be you and your children who will be their next target, and then expect no mercy from them, for you won't get any.

gambino

goldstone, such a genius, how did he figure it all out? they shoot rockets, we do nothing, then we eventually do something and then we're wrong for trying to stop them. Brilliant legal mind. lol.
Effen liberal dope.

Derek BLADES

George, September 13 wrote to me "So if your country is being attacked, the answer is not to defend your country but simply to tell people to move?"

I would certainly not advocate anything so silly. Please read again what I wrote.

I was making the obvious point that the situation of those who live in the villages under fire from Hamas is better than that of the people in Gaza under fire the IDF. The first lot can move out and avoid getting killed; the second lot are obliged to stay put.

I thought you would have spotted that important difference but my apologies if I have over-estimated your grasp of the written word. I will try to be clearer in future.

George

Derek Blades,

A simple answer to the question would have sufficed without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

Si, N

Moderator, please would you let me know why my post is being blocked?

David Blackburn

Dear Si, N,

I've been through the system and we didn't receive your comment. Probably some cyber cock-up. Please re-send it.

Many thanks,

Si, N

Thank you David.

Wm. Hazlitt

Derek Blades, George is unfailingly polite, without sinking to sarcasm or abuse. I think he deserves the same in return.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Adam, UK, stop foaming at the mouth, man! As a dedicated supporter of the 'Palestinians', you should get out there and join a hamas crew at the rocket launchers !

Allen Stern

Excellent article.

Candice

I think the post above made some interesting points, on a related side note I found a used version of Legal and Ethical Considerations for Public Relations which is directly related to this topic for less than the bookstores at http://www.belabooks.com/books/9781577665540.htm