Back to basics

Paul L

For me, the biggest crime ever inflicted on the British working classes has been modern teaching ideology. It has been the biggest betrayal of fellow human beings this country has seen.

The baby boom of the 60s necessitated the building of an new school in my village. Modern in design, layout and teaching attitudes it took my brothers and sister while I stayed at the 'old fashioned' one. We later rejoined at the secondary school. Not one pupil from the new school in my year or the one below went to university. Plenty, however, were in prison within 3 years of leaving or dead through drugs, alcohol or glue abuse.

In the Wilderness in America

Mel, you got it right. Phonics works and has worked for generations, striving to be better works (the USSR didn't have that), moral values is essential (without them, it's a relativistic jungle), and "broken windows" policing has succeeded in America (just ask New York City and Los Angeles where Bill Bratton, Chief of Police in both, made an enormous impact on crime). If Britain adopted these, it would be a step in the right direction for its youth and its future.

Hysteria

How true and how sad. Have just spent the last few minutes re-reading my school magazine form my second year (1965) - a window onto a truly different world.

Roger K

Let's look forward to Sharia Law sorting this mess out and hopefully putting paid to those damn Socialist apostates.

Tas Walker

Not just teaching them to read, but teaching them to know the difference between right and wrong. But our elites no longer believe there is such a thing.

Terry, Eilat - Israel

Reduce the article to one word: Liberalism, years of liberal & leftist psychobabble that has infected Western society.

Andre

Nice remark from Roger K - but we have a much better law than the hand-chopping violence of sharia. Think 10 commandments and the Beatitudes. Among the many reasons for the descent of UK into near anarchy is the simple fact that we have turned away from our faith. Secular left liberalism holds few answers to the great questions - why am I here and what should I be doing. Along with this we have seen the systematic trashing of the very concept of authority. School teachers too often are managerial types or worried young women unable to keep order in class. Both institutions and families have been feminized - what do you want to do today, dear? I think in fairness to my generation (40-60+) we were reacting against the obvious abuse of authority by Hitler and the Nazis, Stalin and the communists and a whole sub class of puffed up men who thought humility was something to do with a weather forecast. We now know the abolition of authority - be it fathers, clergymen, army officers, ship's captains and capitalists in hounds tooth sports jackets - doesn't work. I do not have the answer to this. Nice Mr Cameron will win the election, I reckon, but he is no more a leader than Brown or Clegg. I cannot put any of these people in the same picture frame as Churchill, Gladstone, Palmerston or Pitt. It scares me. The first step in my life has been a return to the historic truths of the christian faith. We do not need the tyranny of sharia but we do need the Biblical idea of truth and justice - know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Terry

I can honestly say that I became an avid reader & managed to get an education DESPITE going to school. I'm only sorry I wasted so much time attending classes - although, I cut classes quite frequently so I could go to the library & actually learn something. My major problem in school was staying awake in class. The only thing that you could learn in school was to NOT want to learn.

Jon_Boy

I think there is alot more wrong with the system than just trendy and so called enlightened teaching methods.

There is also the problem of the complete fall in standards required across our educational system in order to achieve grades.

Then there is the problem of low quality individuals being recruited as teachers. Annicdotially I know of several individuals who have become secondary school teachers who I know were themselves average to below average students who then attended mickey mouse universities and who are now teachers.

I would have no confidance in any of these individuals teaching my children anything.

Not only is the academic ability of these individuals in question but I know some of them to be regular soft drugs users etc.

I know of some of these individuals are also teaching subjects like science as a result of teh shortages in such subjects when these individuals didn't study a meaningful scientific subject at their mickey mouse universities.

I contrast this with the situation of a country like South Korea where I taught english for over a year in their state school system. In that country you must have attended a top ranked university and pass a competitive entrance exam prior to being allowed to train and work as a korean teacher in their state school system.

But again this is alll meaningless as you can have the best schools and teachers in the world but this will not help the British underclass which has emerged from our insane benfits system. Much of this underclass would never take advantage of a decent and functional education system.

The good news is that trendy educatuionalists have a religious zeal for the havoc they reek and seek to propagate their inane ideas around the world. The USA is good at this as many Koreans who go to study education there come back filled with the rubbishthat is being pedalled. In this way they might be able to wreck all the world's education systems and therfore putting us back at competitive equilibrium. We just now have to start preaching to them the benefits of paying and housing their own drop outs and losers so that they too are weighed down by a massive underclass too.

mostly harmless

I wondered how long it would take people on this blog to blame muslims - gosh get a life.

On the new teaching methods I agree with a lot of what was said in the post.

Many parents see what's happening and supplement their children's education with exactly the type of education missing at school. It's when parents don't do this that we have a problem.

Can you imagine a generation of parents who have not been exposed to 'traditional' methods of teaching?

Richard

Andre says:

Among the many reasons for the descent of UK into near anarchy is the simple fact that we have turned away from our faith.

What is interesting to me about this line of argument, which is very central to Melanie's thinking, is that it offers a secular utilitarian justification of religious belief, rather than a religious one. Andre does go on to talk about truths, but still seems to mean secular truths about the claimed usefulness of religion in providing socially desirable forms of morality and authority.

Where does this leave someone who simply, and in good faith, cannot find a reason, intuitive or rational, to believe in God? It's an old question, but one that is strangely ignored by the advocates of this position, just as Richard Dawkins, on the other side, sometimes writes in a facile way because he seems not to understand the moral and emotional burdens of atheism - he writes as if it is easy, and merely an intellectual matter.

Do the advocates of religion for its social benefits have anything sympathetic to say to those for whom the problem is not the desirability of religion (though I'm ambivalent about that) so much as the seeming impossibility of finding sincere and honest religious belief?

just Louise

Butler's Education Act ensured that bright children of working- and lower-middle class social backgrounds could have a grammar school education leading on, perhaps, to university. I am a grateful beneficiary of that legislation. The grammar school I attended was opposite my house. It became a comprehensive in the 1970s, uniforms were abolished, the school honour boards (recording academic successes of high achievers who gained scholarships and degrees)were torn down, rowdyism flourished and discipline broke down. For the wheat was no longer separated from the chaff. What had been a fine school is now low on the totem pole of schlastic achievement, every year in the league tables. The 11-plus had its faults, but in the main Butler's Education Act got it right - it was one of the best pieces of twentieth century legislation, an emancipator of working-class and lower-middle class bright children. Its abolition has betrayed them. Bring back the grammar schools! And bring back traditional methods of teaching grammar, which enabled pupils to construct a sentence correctly, and also the traditional history curriculum, which enabled us to know our "island story", have a sense of cohesion between former generations and ourselves, and set the present in the context of the past!

Marcus

Jon-boy admits his image of current teaching recruits is 'anecdotal'. This is indeed true. I teach on a university post-graduate teacher training course. Over the last few years the standard of our new recruits has gone up year on year, without fail. For several years now we have attracted students holding good first degrees from top institutions and a good understanding and professional workplace experience of their specialist subject. They are able to bring their experience and expertise into their classroom teaching. The idea that either schools or teacher training institutions are hot-beds of half-baked 'liberal' dogmas is a myth which is comforting to the preconceptions of bloggers here but bears no relation to what actually happens. I met this year's new cohort yesterday: bright, keen, focussed and gifted. The images being peddled here are laughable in face of the reality I encounter. The frustrations these eager and committed students face in their future careers derive not from some 'liberal' conspiracy, but rather from the constantly shifting goalposts and endless initiatives sent down from Whitehall.

Steven

Correct analysis in terms of our current situation but historically if you read descriptions of 18th and 19th century street life in London and other major cities it is hard to argue things have gotten worse.

Andre

Richard My apologies for over looking the obvious fact that so many are far from being convinced by the admittedly bizarre claims of Christianity. I think there are two points here. First it is arguably true Christians and Jews and Muslims too behave better. To sin is to offend against God rather than the local police force or our equally enfeebled peer group. This was an argument used by Billy Graham when in communist states – let people become Christians and they will in any event behave better and cause the state less grief. It was duplicitous admittedly in that the late John Paul II was of the firm view that communism was evil. This elides into point two. A system of living which is informed and sustained by a supernatural force has to be more powerful and thus work better. Look at Benedictine monasteries, Christian groups like Icthus and Emmaus. Should people who can’t see this, who have no revelation of faith, try and follow Christian morality anyway? I, tentatively, thinks so. Saint Augustine was once asked why he kept on using bad language and sinning. He replied that he wasn’t as bad now as before he became a Christian. In the final analysis I think you do need an experience of the living God to make this real and switch the lights on behind the various teachings of the bible and the church. What you read needs to be god-breathed as much as ones life needs God’s help. In Alcoholics Anonymous most followers pray as follows: I admit my life has become unmanageable and I cannot cure myself of this condition. The idea is to hand the problem over to God or one’s higher power. Whether it is the blessing of fellowship or the intervention of God himself many stay sober and live happy and fulfilled lives. So my answer is to give Christianity a try and be open to the revelation that God says he promises all who seek after him. I do not think there is anything rational or intuitive about faith, would that it were that easy. Like love itself faith will always surprise by its intensity and more often than not its inconvenience. Good luck in your search Richard, God bless you

Linda Smith

mostly harmless commented: "I wondered how long it would take people on this blog to blame muslims".

Western liberal education follows the Socratic method: "a form of inquiry and debate between individuals with opposing viewpoints based on asking and answering questions to stimulate rational thinking and to illuminate ideas. It is a dialectical method, often involving an oppositional discussion in which the defense of one point of view is pitted against the defense of another; one participant may lead another to contradict himself in some way, strengthening the inquirer's own point." (Wiki)

Islam forbids questioning and challenging its tenets. All inquiry and debate is shut down. Submission is the name of the game - Muslim ideologues have a lot in common with leftie ideologues, the thought police currently ruling our lives.

Augustus

"I wondered how long it would take people on this blog to blame muslims - gosh get a life"

Is that because Islam is such a dominant ideology? Unbelievers musn't teach their children; Islam musn't be equated with any of the other 'false' beliefs; Halal food musn't be cooked in the same containers as Haram food. In fact, their children must only receive the needs prescribed by Islam, with science, geography, and history concentrating entirely on the achievements, developments and wars successfully accomplished during the 1400 years of Islamic
history.Any other teachings are regarded as erroneous concepts of Western education. And the pollution and corruption of a child's mind does not cease in the classroom, as it also extends to the playground where it would be forbidden for girls to try and emulate actors or singers by revealing parts of their body. In short, the existence and control of Allah must be confirmed in all things
educational with no contradiction of Islam whatsoever. If at a later stage
in a childs education things such as: Capitalism, communist and socialist concepts, the doctrines of other religions, atheism, and patriotism, are to be studied at all, it is only for the purpose of exposing the trivial nature of such subjects. For the thoughts and behaviour of the youth everywhere must be filled only by those prescribed by the true Creator and Legislator Allah.

Linda Smith

Andre: "First it is arguably true Christians and Jews and Muslims too behave better."

When they're not killing, persecuting, burning each other at the state, ghettoising and/or dhimmifying each other in the name of their God and their religion.

Alex Bensky

The remark about children directing their own learning illustrates an interesting dichotomy in leftist thought.

On the one hand, perish forbid that the teacher actually direct her students or require anything of them. The assumption is that everyone, even young children, is basically inner-directed, knows what they need, and merely need the opportunity, and they will eagerly reach for the good and the beautiful. (I don't say "the true" because, of course, many of the teachers would deny the existence of "the true.")

On the other hand, adults are not capable of making their own decisions about important matters and those decisions therefore must be made by those who are smarter and wiser.

By the way, as to the teacher who wants her charges (I hesitate to say "students") to direct their own learning, I wonder if she allows her own children to direct their own approach to table manners.

Nicholas

"It became a comprehensive in the 1970s, uniforms were abolished, the school honour boards (recording academic successes of high achievers who gained scholarships and degrees)were torn down, rowdyism flourished and discipline broke down."

That is what socialism and its stupid adherents have done here. Destroyed what was good to replace it with something that they held was better by being "fairer" - but wasn't. Everything they meddle with turns out like this - everything. I'm still surprised that after so many decades of providing so many very clear examples of why their ideology and policies are complete shite so many people still believe in them. Never was so much crap peddled by so few swallowed by so many.

David Lindsay

The State failed in its duty to guarantee the economic basis of paternal authority in the family and the wider community.

That failure began during the Premiership of the erstwhile Education Secretary who had closed so many grammar schools that there were not enough left at the end for her record ever to be equalled, and who as Prime Minister replaced O-levels with GCSEs while presiding over massively increased benefit dependency and general moral chaos.

Hereford

On reinventing the wheel:

Remember, it is only by the continuous reinvention of the wheel that we have moved from the log roller to the pneumatic tyre.

mostly harmless

Linda & Augustus

Glad you got that off your chest, I hope you feel better

Remember anger leads to hate and hate leads to the dark side.

mostly harmless

'it is not for nothing that our children go on to lead.'

ISAAC, methinks you have a superiority complex, best get it checked out.

John Edwards

Quite serious and thought provoking articles.

On the education question I do not envy teachers when children have lost a basic respect for the teacher.

I remember a former newly qualified teacher telling me how he was teaching a class of girls and writing on the board when a wooden board rubber hit him on the back of his head.

What action did the headteacher take? "Don't turn your back on them" she advised. Not surprisingly he went abroad to teach. There needs to be drastic change to get a grip on discipline.

On the other hand one should not idealise past eras. The system in the UK has always educated some people very badly. I remember the campaigns on adult literacy back in the sixties and seventies so the problems are not new.

Linda Smith

mostly harmless: when you went to school, didn't they teach you that a fact is either true or false. The truth or falsity of a fact is not determined by "anger" or "hatred".

I hope you're not a teacher.

mostly harmless

Linda Smith

'when you went to school, didn't they teach you that a fact is either true or false.'

Thanks for the lesson Linda, sounds like you went to a good school

Nick

Jon-Boy. I find it hard to believe you taught English for a year. Your comment is littered with spelling errors.

Poppy Kock

My children could read fluently within a few weeks of starting a private traditional education at three and a half years old. I had never tried to teach them to read, I’d only read to them and they had grown up with a colourful alphabet poster on the wall around the kitchen table from which they learned to pronounce the alphabet phonetically and phonetically only. I had followed good advice which says never refer to the letters in the alphabet using the letter’s normal descriptive pronunciation before your children have learned to read. It worked and their education got off to the best start it could possibly have.

When they were placed back into the state system a few years my son's new teachers were very put out by their super advanced reading skills in relation even to the advanced readers in the state school. I felt this went some way to proving beyond all reasonable doubt (to any realist) that the much vaunted progressive “Look Say” method was a hindrance to learning, but anybody who expressed puzzlement at this frankly weird method of teaching children to read was treated to backward glances of contempt usually by a cocky group of teachers piling into one car on a Friday afternoon, all pumped up and on their way to attend the next NUT conference.

Twenty odd years later and I have encountered numerous shocking examples of the impact of progressive teaching methods. Intelligent and maybe not so intelligent young people whose personalities were never going to take them into academia but who would have otherwise back in the day of traditional teaching methods acquired decent basic spelling reading and communication skills. Very recently a twenty six year old male in my employ who has spent most of his adult life in the catering industry blithely used the following spellings without any hesitation: - Chedder chess, Mug Tow, NoDDels, tuner. The items should read as Cheddar cheese, mange tout, noodles and tuna!

Linda Smith

mostly harmless: I went to a grammar school - I must confess, the same one as Peter Mandelson, although I never met him!

Liz SA

Linda Smith, presumably truth is fact, only when it coincides with your views.
Jon_Boy "There is also the problem of the complete fall in standards required across our educational system in order to achieve grades." HHmmmm...I love irony as much as the next person, but I would suggest that it ill behoves you to cast judgement on educational standards when your posting is simply hotching with basic spelling errors. If British educational standards are low, then how much lower must be those in South Korea.......

Corona Basso

The school near by where I live was tranquil today because the school have majority of muslim kids and many of them didn't go back to school since Friday and the reason is the parents of this kids are still celebrating Eid al- Fidre, I though Eid finished on Sunday, missing school for 3-4 days is not good, did someone said I wonder how long it will take for people this blog to blame muslims, no one is blaming muslims sir but sometimes I feel sorry for some kids coming from muslim background special little girls in primary school who are force to wear hijabs and most of the time busy checking if the hijab they are wearing covering their hair rather then being like any other child in their class and alot of this kids from this background could of be good and talented students if their parents try hard to integrate and learn the language of the country they are living so they could help the kids with their homework, sorry mostly harmless it is different story when you visit the schools who have high majority of students from India and China

Suffolkbor

"We don,t need no education ,
We don,t need no thought control".
I bet the lefties in the education establishment soothe themselves nightly into the arms of Morpheus with that little lullaby from Pink Floyd .

alan143

@ Marcus 12:19pm

Thanks for presenting your professional view of your own profession so clearly.

About a year ago I was with a schools inspector who was somewhat in his cups. He said that one day he might visit a wonderful school and next day visit an inner city hell-hole, where teachers did little but watch the fights while in class. The inspector felt obliged to tone down their failings greatly, to create the impression that he had visited some sort of "school".

How are we laymen to reconcile your unvaryingly wonderful opinion of your profession and your trainees and, presumably, your own lectures, with the opinion of a professional inspector who sees those same things dispassionately?

Must all teachers have prizes?

C. Gee

Alex Bensky and just Louise:

Well said. And in agreement:

Socialism desires equality of outcomes. Traditional education recognizes the hierarchies of intellectual ability and rewards achievement. Once socialism has attempted to correct for "nurture"-related differences by establishing comprehensive schools, doing away with competition, dumbing down both subjects and exams, instituting affirmative action, teaching self-esteem etc., there is still the residual "nature" of the intellect: intelligence. As there is no redistributing mental superiority, the socialists must content themselves with constraining the clever and promoting the dull.

Marcus:

Your confidence in your students is a professional necessity, I dare say. "Good first degrees from top institutions" are no longer warrants of ability, application, knowledge or proficiency. But since the professionalization of teaching and the unionization of teachers, these attributes are neither necessary nor sufficient. Understanding power relations - race, class, gender - and recognizing them in the classroom is now the basis for pedagogy (even in the private sector). The long march is over.

Richard and Andre:

I never minded hollering out a Christian hymn or two at morning assembly. It sent oxygen to a still sleepy brain and provided a little esprit de corps as unison activities do. "The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate, He made them high and lowly, He [somethinged] their estate .. ". Would'nt that be a wonderfully subversive way to start the school day?

Augustus

Poppy Kock, your story regarding the spelling mistakes reminds me of the immigrant New York warehouse manager on the Hudson river in the 1920s whose job it was to check packing cases before shipment. He decided to mark those which he had checked as being 'All Correct', but he thought that was spelt: 'Orl Korekt', and put OK on the cases. It wasn't long before well-brought-up people here were saying okey-dokey. But however it's used (and it is admittedly useful), OK is still a monument to timeless and blissful ignorance.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

THE PROBLEM I IS EVERYONE IN BRITIAN IS BECAMING LEFTY LIBERAL, THE CHURCH LEADERS, THE TEACHERS, THE POLITICIANS, THE HAIR DRESSERS and all, sorry about my English spelling

JAE

I started teaching in 1963 in a secondary school on a council estate. It was virtually unknown for a child to reach 11 years old and not to be able to read. One school also taught italic writing which stood the children who used it in good stead.
Ten years ago, when I decided to do a one year course to upgrade my diploma to a degree, I attended the local teacher training institution. The lecturers sauntered in night after night saying 'Shall we watch a video tonight or have a discussion?'. We were not required to read books but handed sheafs of notes with words which did not even appear in the dictionaries and which made no sense anyway because often the last couple of lines of each page had escaped the photocopier. We were also told none of us would fail the course. When I disagreed with the module on discipline ( never, having had a discipline problem in 20 years)I was told I was retrograde and penalised.... And these self same lecturers were of course school inspectors too ! Hug a tree but don't learn the name of it or how to identify it. Unfortunately laziness is endemic in us all if not called to account and that is what we see.

robbit

Nicholas, re. "I'm still surprised that after so many decades of providing so many very clear examples of why their ideology and policies are complete shite so many people still believe in them."

You must realise, dear chap, that the whole point of ideology is to render anyone who comes under its sway completely impervious to facts and reality. Every failure is simply proof that the ideology was not appiled and enforced thoroughly and rigorously enough. Every response is therefore more of the same old same old. This has been well understood for many years now.

Linda Smith

Liz SA "Linda Smith, presumably truth is fact, only when it coincides with your views."

Lordy, Lordy, Liz SA doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion.

A fact is either true or false. A view is an opinion.

I hope Liz SA isn't a teacher.

Marcus

Andre 143 - I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. If I said that the standard of recruits has improved over the last few years, then surely this implies that there was room for improvement? It would be rather unfair then todismiss my observations as starry-eyed. When I first started in the job it could certainly be said with some fairness that some of the trainees were there because they couldn't think of anything else to do. That really cannot be said now; they are a genuinely impressive group of people.

I'm not sure what your drunken inspector's remarks prove (leaving aside the fact that it is incredibly easy to become an Ofsted inspector, however poorly suited the individual). If anything has been proved over during the reforms of the last few years, surely it is that what makes a good school is a good head: bringing in a dynamic new leader is just about the only way to turn around a failing school.

I'm surprised that you seek to denigrate the idea of professionalism. I would have thought that the best way to attract teachers of high calibre is to make the job a respected profession: the years of denigration and undermining of teaching an honourable profession which went on under Woodhead and Blunkett had a damaging effect.

I'm also surprised that no-one here has talked about the external social factors pupils bring into school with them which teachers have to grapple with. How about 'Big Brother' et al?

To return to teacher training: I work on a part-time basis; what I see displayed by my hard-working full-time colleagues is a good deal of hard-headed realism, a determination to turn out sound and capable teachers, and a considerable work overload.

Liz SA

Linda, Sorry to keep you out of bed, sitting up waiting for a response to your enlightened postings. No I'm not a teacher - only someone equipped with HUGE crap detectors.

Noah Aaron Bashi

There is no discipline, broken homes, broken families, no respect for elderly, greediness, corruption it is all in the environment of Great Britain, the British lost faith, no believing G*d, education is entertainment going to museum trips and things like that, and also believing they are the best people in the world, it looks like 10 years from now the British people will became like the audience in "Jerry Springer Show"...

mark

What the article says about an ideology that holds that sitting students in rows and instructing them is far to didactic hits the nail on the head . This notion certainly goes against the grain of this soon to be ex-teacher. The last time I was confronted by this orthodoxy was a year ago. The person delivering the message was an OFSTED inspector. If you value your career you don't contradict these agents of government policy. Funnily enough the same inspector told me the same thing 13 years ago when the Conservatives were in power. Plus ca change.
The real reason such orthodoxy prevails is because the establishment (defined by me as governments of both hues, OFSTED inspectors, LEA officers and many school leaders) refuse to acknowledge the need for firm and effective discipline. You cannot teach properly if you do not have clear discipline strategies in place. Rather than do this the establishment invents a whole raft of "interactive" ways of "facilitating" learning, thus getting around the problem of not having the mechanisms to enforce basic norms such as students listening to a teacher delivering knowledge. Thus subjects such as Modern Languages have the greatest number incidents of ill-discipline because you simply cannot get around the fact that the class has to listen to the only language speaker in the room.

Jon_Boy

My apologies, my English in my previous post was indeed appalling. My excuses are that I was quickly speed typing, as I was running late for a football game, I am an engineer and also that I was educated within the modern British education system.

I am 32 years old and even when I attended school we were not taught English grammar as part of our English education. This impacted us often when trying to learn foreign languages and was seriously brought home to me when teaching English in South Korea. This I tried to rectify, out of shame, by the private study of English grammar books during my time in Korea.

When I tried to opt for a history GCSE, when I was 14, I was informed that not enough students wanted to study the subject, so I had to make do with Humanities. A subject which just seems to teach you about tourism and other meaningless bollocks. Therefore I subsequently had to learn all my history from TV programs.

As an engineer I was also later disadvantaged in not having technical skills in areas such as carpentry, metal work etc. This was because we were forced to study a subject called CDT instead which from what I remember mainly involved us doing tasks like designing new types of chocolate bars. It was only my love of eating food and a hard nosed mother that meant I had to teach myself to cook outside of school.

By all accounts I hear that the education system is even worse now and that the standards demanded of the students is even lower.

Funny enough I was greatly appreciated by my school in South Korea and they even asked me to stay on at the end of my contract. I think this was mainly due to the fact that I turned up on time, turned up sombre and was semi literate which was quite often not the case with many of my British and North American colleagues.

Somebody here made a remark which makes me think that they seem upset when I suggested that the Korean school education system is far superior to the British one. Well I am afraid it is true. They still teach the basics required for a meaningful education, they have far fewer children from broken and dysfunctional families. The teachers maintain discipline at school and are usually fully supported by the parents of any disruptive children.

Another overlooked factor is that there is a network of private schools or institutes in Korea, which most Koreans send their children to, both after and before their day in state school. In the UK private tuition like this is often financially prohibitive and requires money only the rich possess. In Korea they have managed to keep the costs down by having many of these after and pre school institutes, at a cost the vast majority of Koreans can afford, if they choose to. Of course this requires the children to be acting in a civilised manor and parents who give a shit and who are not simply just parents as a ways and means of obtaining state benefits and a roof over their heads.

Lets be honest the same sorts of people that destroyed our education system and filled it with many third rate teachers of my generation are quite often the same people that espouse all the other social policies that plague our society. In fact their triumph is so complete that even if we managed to turn the education system around the very social fabric has been destroyed, which would allow people to take advantage of a good education system.

Not only is the education system poor but in the higher education system it is damn right corrupt too. When studying a Masters course at a well known and respected higher education institute I was shocked to find that the admission policies were very far from transparent.

After careful observation and chatting with my fellow students I became aware of a few facts. These were that if you were from a company or from local government that sent or sponsored a number of students each year then the requirement of having a first degree before undertaking a Master¡¯s degree was not enforced.

If you were caught cheating and you were a foreign student paying higher fees then you were simply asked to resubmit work with no further punishment.

I was one of a lucky number of students to be on scholarship from the British Engineering and Science Council as the subject was deemed to be in demand and this body was funding us, I guess with view to us working in the public sector.

It was only later I learnt the bitter truth that local governments outside of London would only employ their friends and relatives. They would then send this same group of friends and relatives often with no first degree to study at places like the university I attended, at the local council tax payer¡¯s expense and never consider more qualified outside candidates who had already been funded by central government.

It was only later into the applications process for jobs that we learnt that local government in London was more open as long as you were from an ethnic minority background. An ethnic friend of mine on the course who was not an outstanding student laughed and concurred with many of us when he and another etnic minority person on the course were the only two people to be invited for interview in local government in London.

Henry Sidgwick

Linda Smith, Of a proposition (call it "x"): if it is your opinion that "x is true", then is x fact or opinion?

In the Wilderness in America

When did a fact become either true or false? A fact by its very nature and meaning is a truth. It happened. Or as the dictionary puts it "something known to be true."

There are people here arguing over the truth or falsity of a fact. Am I at the Mad Hatters tea party?

Linda Smith

Henry Sidgwick/Hazlitt: Of a proposition (call it "x"): if it is your opinion that "x is true", then is x fact or opinion?

Dictionary definition:

Opinion: the attitude that you have towards something, especially your thoughts about how good it is.

Fact: a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred; a concept whose truth can be proved; a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened.

You seem to have your semantic knickers in a twist.

Ian McGuiggan

Mel,

Can you say something about the health care debate in the States vis-a-vis the standard of care in the NHS?

thanks

Ian

GeoffM

The plain fact, Melanie, is that when you look at the teaching profession you do not see a group of professionals focussed upon the needs of children and fitting them for a happy and constructive life in Society.

What you actually see when you look at the annual conferences held by teaching unions are people who are motivated by politics, not professionalism.

Marxist politics at that.

The same goes for public sector unions generally, as well as quango's of course.

The Labour Party is at the centre of this web of malign influence.

If the UK is ever to get itself back on track we need a British Government that clears out such people. They have no democratic mandate so why do they exert such influence?

If marxism was such a good thing then why do marxists hide in the shadows or lie about their beliefs (our Home and Foreign Secretaries for example)

Until the threat is highlighted, action taken and rules put in place to ensure it never happens again, the British people will be at the mercy of marxists and their destabilising, dishonest, activities.

Poppy Kock

Great story Augustus thanks.

I wish I could say the chap mentioned in my post was an immigrant grappling with a second language. Sadly he’s English born and bred and was raised and educated in and around the leafy environs of an affluent south east suburb. Sigh.

Harriette Shoemaker

Sometimes when I go for a walk I see some students in central London who look a like nothing but ghettos, in some parts of the capital you could see children wearing veils and burkas at the beginning I was thinking those kids were going special religion schools but they were going to the local state schools or the church of England schools i read somewhere even though they were going western schools they fellow some kind of law and education system from 7th century Arabia, on the other hand you see kids from atheist left wing liberal background with weird funny hair cuts dirty wrinkle clothes those kids didn't look they care about education even they were from the middle class background, everywhere you go there is ghettos and it is sad really I don't know who to blame but we all know who created it, liberal elites refuse to listen,
the only people who could save Great Britain is the right wing conservatives

Linda Smith

Harriette Shoemaker: I find your grammar and punctuation quite extraordinary. Are you the product of the English educational system?

Henry Sidgwick

Linda Smith, The question is really quite simple: How do you distinguish what is fact from what is fact merely in your opinion?

Henry Sidgwick

Ian McGuiggan
September 24th, 2009 4:05am

Can I second Ian's request. It is an excellent topic to discuss here.

Linda Smith

Henry Sidgwick/Hazlitt, a fact cannot be "a fact merely in your opinion." You could assert that in your opinion the moon is made of green cheese, but that would not make your opinion a fact.

Nicholas

GeoffM excellent post hitting the nail squarely on the head.

phil

just Louise how right you are -I was brought up in a small street of two up two down working class people whose ambition was to enhance their children's lives -that street produced one professor (became a lord),one consultant physician ,two dentists,two chartered accountants,one lawyer and one optician ,none went to prison nor assaulted anyone and all went to the local grammar school-when we learn that trying to make everyone equal is a recipe for disaster we may yet have a chance to redeem ourselves -The real lesson is to instil a morality in those who are more fortunate in both intellect and acumen to understand charity and help for those less fortunate .

The children who did not pass the eleven plus were given a chance to compete on level terms and make a future for themselves without having to feel inadequate on a daily basis by competing with those who were blessed with more intellectual ability -There is nothing to feel ashamed about by being brilliant with ones hands rather than ones brain .just nourish a child's talents ,let him feel needed and admired for what he can do rather than squash their ambition by being bottom of the class and fighting the fight that they cannot win .

The youngsters who we complain about mostly have nothing to feel proud about ,they lost their way at school,learned to be hopeless and sought solace in drugs , drink and crime .Is there a solution ? I believe there is but it needs a large investment in education and services for youth such as the youth clubs that I was fortunate to attend, where we competed with kids from different backgrounds and religions ,where we learned not to hate ,but to enjoy the difference in ethnicity -We learned pride in competing for our clubs ,to win with dignity and lose with good grace , a smile ,a glass of pop and a butty ,whilst telling our opponents we would beat them next time was all that was needed to make friends for life ,but nowadays it seems to be a knife or a gun for even entering a district next to ones own ,and it is fear of the unknown and frustration that drives it

.These solutions may seem simple but they are not being tried ,the charities who do make the effort are not being funded -It surely would not be impossible for the football clubs to allow facilities for young people to become members and for the stars to to give their time to front these clubs ,or how about asking Ricky Hatton ,Amir khan(who I think is doing it ) and Joe Calzaghe etc to help teach the kids some pride ,those boxing clubs do a tremendous service to our society ,kids from 11 onwards compete with each other and I have seen with my own eyes how they sit with their opponents afterwards ,arms round each other drinking pop and eating butties ,so many when they become adults will happily tell anyone who will listen how their lives may have gone on a different journey had they not learned pride in their own names and that of their clubs .

Well Louise that was a long speech but maybe someone will take notice of what both of us have tried to say -I do not know much about climate change but I do know that what we have written about has a much more visible effect on our current lives .

Linda Smith

Phil, you used the word "morality" in your comment. What has happened in the last thirty years is that the moral framework has changed from one based on Judeo/Christian values to one based on extreme relativism.

Human beings have to organise the society they live in, to decide how they want to live and what rules and sanctions they need in order to sustain that society. It is unnecessary to believe in a divine origin for say, egalitarian Judeo/Christian values in order to prefer them to discriminatory supremacist Islamic ones.

Dixon

I spy the mentality of teachers at work on this thread...."what is a fact". If you want to be precise, never use the word "fact" and only cite data, then the issue ( purely a semantic one ) never arises.

Wittgenstein would reach for his poker!

benjamin

Considring the nummer of speling mishtakes in this blog, for once I tink Melanie is rite.
Well, you people should move to horrible nasty socialist liberal France. My two children are in school here and I'm pleasantly surprised that they have an old-fashioned system involving learning poetry off by heart, homework from the age of six, major emphasis on learning to read and write and on mathematics. Children are expected to be able to read an write by 7 years of age. The teachers seem to be highly-motivated intelligent people and are generally well-respected by the pupils.

Trudy W. Schuett

I remember in my high school days here in the US we had an official publication entitled, "Guide to Great Britain" or something of the sort, and I was surprised to see that the literacy rate of the day (1965)was claimed to be 100%. I knew it wasn't close to universal in the US then -- somewhere in the 70% range.

So sad to see this happening.

Henry Sidgwick

Linda Smith, You seem determined to avoid the question, which can surely be understood despite any obscurities in my way of phrasing it.

Dictionary definitions (OED):

Opinion. What one opines, a judgement resting on grounds insufficient for complete demonstration, belief of something as probable or as seeming to one's own mind as true, what one thinks about a particular subject, a judgement formed, a belief...

Fact. Something that has really occurred or is the case, a datum of experience, something that is alleged to be or might be a fact, truth, reality...

So it would appear that an opinion can be defined as what you believe to be a fact (although there are, I grant you, other connotations as well).

So, how do you distinguish between fact and opinion? How do you go about determining whether a "fact" is true or false? And do you hold your opinions in the understanding that they are neither true nor false, or hoping that they are true while recognizing there is a chance they may be false?

Dixon, I don't think it is so easy to sidestep the question and I don't think Wittgenstein, at least early Wittgenstein, would try to sidestep it as you suggest. The question is in any case not that deep, although I have made such a meal of it. It is simply how Linda Smith manages to be confident that she can separate fact from opinion in the context of the topics discussed in this blog.

phil

LINDA -"The view that truth is relative and not absolute. Truth varies from people to people, time to time and there are no absolutes"-relativism ?

My preference is to accept what my own reason tells me and I need no help from any religion -God gave me a mind and what passes for a conscience -we have written here for quite some time so I believe you know how I think -what interests me more is a practical solution ,rather an indulgence in semantics . People need to go out amongst these youngsters and see what motivates ,they are not born evil ,they are a product of our generation,s lack of nurture .

I have written to both major parties and received elegant replies from newly qualified graduates thanking me for my suggestions but of course offering nothing ,the best was from two brains dept which was totally unintelligible ,perhaps he never went to grammar school .

I mentioned in my last post what Amir Khan had tried to do in Bolton (it was shown in a Tv series )-I wonder if he was ever offered any help to continue his efforts -I really doubt it -he taught young offenders of different faiths and districts pride in themselves ,some gave up but others had a new start -what a cost effective way of giving youngsters a chance in life ! how can we not help people like him ?

For those of you who spend too much time here insulting one another and teaching spelling -how about using your undoubted intellects to come up with some solutions to our problems -I know you will feel better :)

phil

Dixon-if Wittgenstein were here today I think he would ask the inveterate writer of long essays HS ,what is your purpose here ?do you have anything logical to add to our discussion ,in fact any practical solutions ? I do not know whether W had a sense of humour ,but he could not but be amused at the lengths our writer goes to,only to tell us nothing -I see I have not taken my own advice in my last post :)

Matthew

Statement: Pianos fall towards the ground. Anyone who thinks they don't must prove their point by standing beneath a piano. No one exists who truly holds that it is a fact that pianos don't fall towards the ground. All agree, therefore, that pianos fall to the ground. Experience dictates what the facts are. Opinions are merely judgements made where relevant experience is incomplete.

Furthermore; all brides are female (ignore any recent exceptions to this); this is an unequivocal fact. There are statements like this which are absolutely facts i.e. true without a doubt, and then their are facts like the first example of the falling piano, which are facts to everybody with common sense when thinking in the common world (as opposed to philosophising).

This toti-relativism may not be the only reason for the apparent inability of some teachers to accept that fact exists and is worth teaching about (I have experienced this myself). It may be that years of socialist dumbing down has lead some of these teachers to think that there hasn't been over 400 years of modern philosophy, much of which justifies the notion of fact and spits at relativism, in whatever form it takes. Also, maybe they are the product of a political dogma that chooses to ignore modern world history which shows just how powerful fact - the offpsring of science- is, for good or for worse.

In the Wilderness in America

To Linda Smith:

A fact is reality. Yes, people may believe that what they say or do is a fact, but the fact that there really is a reality out there, may make their perceived fact false and not a fact. The perceived fact still does not negate the fact that the real fact is a fact. Enough semantics for ya. Hope that hasn't twisted your semantic and reality knickers, or as we say in the states: "How's them apples?" (for an example of that idiomatic expression, see Matt Damon in the movie Good Will Hunting)

Augustus

mostly harmless - You say that hate 'leads to the dark side'. That's as maybe, but I prefer to call it anti-submissiveness.
To take an example, and in a sense related to children: An immigrant who bring his four wives to this country (or elsewhere in Europe) need fear no legal consequences. Because Polygamous marriages (legal in Islamic law) are accepted in the West, with all the social benefits available for each wife, some Islamic legal experts
now argue that, because of this,
it is only logical to accept the rest of Islamic law, lock, stock, and barrel. This surely is the positivism of the looney bin? Because parts of it are already applied, Sharia ought to be applied even further. How long then before amputations and suchlike become acceptable?
The mind boggles. If, as it it often claimed, Sharia law aims to promote moderate Islam by offering an alternative to that of the militant Islamists, we don't need it. A truly moderate Islam would be able to cope with Western laws. If it can't it is suicidal to allow it.

phil

mathew and wilderness you are just illustrating the point of what a useless load of semantics are being perpetrated upon us with no relevance to the meat of this thread -we want a better world guys so in the words of the wilderness get real .learning the meaning of the word fact is about as useful as our government/opposition is now

Lance Grundy

"...teaching five year-olds to read."

The Labour government wants to teach "five year-olds" plenty of things - as THIS article from the Daily Telegraph illustrates. Reading isn't one of them.

C. Gee

Henry Sidgwick,

You ask Linda Smith:
"Of a proposition (call it "x"): if it is your opinion that "x is true", then is x fact or opinion?"

This is not hard. A "proposition" is a statement of proposed fact. To say that a proposition is true is to state that the proposed fact is a fact. That statement is an opinion. The proposition may a statement of fact, in which case the opinion that it is true is also a statement about the factuality of the proposition. The statement that a proposition is true does not alter the factuality or truth of the proposition.

If you had defined x as a statement of fact, rather than a proposition, your question would have been been unnecessary.

If you believe that there are no facts, only propositions or perceived facts, or - as leftist intellectuals would say - "narratives", there can be no debate about truth, only competing propaganda.

The interesting philosophical problem is whether facts can be reasserted in a world of narrative which denies them. Can reality mug a leftist? And will he acknowledge it?

raymond

To paraphrase old Tone, it is marriage, marriage, marriage !On the whole, generally speaking, on average, it us married folks who are keeping this country educationally on the road ! You would think then, that our governing classes would want to encourage more of us to join the married club ! But no. They disparage us, ignore us, take us for granted ! Meanwhile more and more of our hard earned taxes get shovelled at lifestyles that promote disorder. True? You know it is !

Linda Smith

Henry Sidgwick/Hazlitt: you posted

"Fact: something that has really occurred or is the case...Opinion, what one opines, a judgement resting on grounds insufficient for complete demonstration...It is simply how Linda Smith manages to be confident that she can separate fact from opinion."

As a fact is "something that has REALLY occurred, it is backed up by empirical evidence. That is why I am confident that I can separate fact from opinion. I always provide references/sources for my factual statements in my posts or when requested.

If you wish to challenge the veracity of a "fact" on which I base my arguments, it is for you to provide evidence to back up your challenge. Your default position is to cry "Zionist" source as if this in itself is sufficient proof of duplicity.

As you find yourself unable to credibly falsify the facts on which my arguments are based, you now resort to attempting to deceive Spectator readers by asserting that there is no difference between fact and opinion. But all you are doing is pointing up your own duplicity.

I note that your own antiZionist comments are short on fact, and long on hyperbole.

Nicholas

Has this thread somehow mutated into transcribed excerpts from the recorded conversation in a polytech staff room?

Henry Sidgwick

C. Gee, ...okay, so you're not very good at philosophy either...a primer on philosophy of logic might help...

Henry Sidgwick

Linda Smith, "...you now resort to attempting to deceive Spectator readers by asserting that there is no difference between fact and opinion." ...? It is borne in upon me that you really, genuinely just don't get it - and you with a university education too!

I think Nicholas has probably got the measure of us. Sorry, Nicholas.

Polly Gamma

No Nicholas it's Sidgwick/Hazlitt doing is normal thing - diverting attention away as best he can from Melanie's acute observations. Yawn.

Henry Sidgwick

Nicholas, Look away now...

Linda Smith, There is the question of What there is (ontology) and there is the question of What we can know about what there is and how we can know it (epistemology).

Your attempt at a put-down - "Lordy, Lordy, Liz SA doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion. A fact is either true or false. A view is an opinion." - does not begin to address the question of how you distinguish between what is a fact and what is in your opinion a fact, that is, the question of when you can be confident in your identification of a proposition as expressing a fact. The difficulty in answering this question should instil a little humility.

Polly Gamma is correct that this is a digression. It was prompted by Linda Smith's rather too confident put-down. I aplogise to Polly Gamma and Nicholas, and will now stop.

phil

Am I the only one who is bored to the state of stupefaction by the daily nonsense being sent in by those that wish to argue as to the meaning of a fact.This thread is about real problems that affect our lives not those of disgruntled "professors" attempting to show how clever they are -let them read my attempts at solutions and then come up with better ones if they can be bothered ,but at least spare us from their well massaged egos -as for HS himself, facts have never deterred him on so many other subjects , so why is he so bothered about a definition now -maybe he admires Nero

Linda Smith

Henry Sidgwick/Hazlitt: if, in your opinion, you are uable to "distinguish between what is a fact and what is in your opinin a fact" I recommend you desist from posting your scurrilous attacks on Israel until you are sure your accusations are based in fact, and not merely a figment of your biased antiZionist imagination.

In the Wilderness in America

Does a bear defecate in the woods if you don't see it, hear it, touch it(eew!), smell it (double eew!)or taste it (triple eew!)? That is the question. If the jury is out as to the answer in your mind or you say that the bear couldn't have without any witnesses, then you will probably treat facts as true or false. If you treat the fact as a reality separate from our knowledge of it, then true or false doesn't enter into it.

Ghetto fabulous

Great Britain very dangerous country to live, the British liberal fascist left only care about few things, make money, own second home south of France or the English country side, shopping, buying expensive wine, holiday, they forget their poor working class people, they don't know what is going on in their neighbors, they live their cities like tourists they don't know if it is rainy day or sunshine day, what disgust me when I walk their streets I see very poor disadvantage people next to professional architect or the media workers wherever they call themselves, when you ask the trendy British people what they do they will say architect, I notice many people are trying to be like Norman Foster or Richard Rogers, "you wish" I don't like modern Architect I don't like posh people, British middle class and working class need to get real and go to church
Amen.

Aldamir

Henry Sidgwick

"Your attempt at a put-down - "Lordy, Lordy, Liz SA doesn't know the difference between fact and opinion. A fact is either true or false. A view is an opinion." - does not begin to address the question of how you distinguish between what is a fact and what is in your opinion a fact, that is, the question of when you can be confident in your identification of a proposition as expressing a fact. The difficulty in answering this question should instil a little humility."

Henry, I think your lectures on humility would be more credible if you demonstrated some of it yourself.

Henry Sidgwick

Aldamir, You are of course quite right.

I said, "The difficulty in answering this question should instil a little humility."

The difficulty in coaxing Linda Smith into recognizing that there is a question caused me a little exasperation, for which I apologise.

Mr Melrose

Hello Moderator!!

Ronald Regan was a God. George Bush shall sit at his right hand, John Wayne at the left. Ted Nugent shall lie at his feet and serenade the collected throng. And they shall they dump mighterly on the liberals. Oh yes. Amen.

Just Checking this is still working.

Stuart Rose

The "progressive ed" approach that includes the dogmatic belief in decentralizing instruction in the classroom has been tried in many cities here in the U.S. As a teacher who was forced to place my students in learning groups(where, supposedly, they would intellectually feed each other as well as learn social skills), I can testify to the colossal time wasted and the failure of many children to learn how to read and think and acquire a body of basic knowledge and cultural reference points.
The Conservative Party ought to be leading the charge against the decades of decay "progressive" ideas in education have wreaked on Britain. Fortunately, there are journalist such as yourself, Peter Hitchens, Harriet Sergeant
telling the public of the folly and awful consequences of these policies.

Linda Smith

Henry Sidgwick/Hazlitt: "There is the question of What there is (ontology) and there is the question of What we can know about what there is and how we can know it (epistemology)."

I suggest you have a chat with the Holocaust denying Ahmedinajacket. He seems to be a man after your own heart.

By the way, how do you know you're not just a brain in a vat?

Henry Sidgwick

Linda Smith, Still you don't get it, but that is okay. What is not okay is your reversion to obnoxious smears by association: "I suggest you have a chat with the Holocaust denying Ahmedinajacket. He seems to be a man after your own heart." Limited intellect is something we all suffer from more or less. Unthinking malice is something you ought to be able to keep in check.

In the Wilderness in America

Phil,
Way to go! You are absolutely correct. This arguing over the nature of a fact is tedious. Phil, you're not the only one
"bored to the state of stupefaction by the daily nonsense being sent in by those that wish to argue as to the meaning of a fact." Count me bored.

Even though I'm here in America and don't know the details of your problems in the classroom, I think, Phil, that you have some excellent practical solutions to solving the educational crisis in Britain. I especailly like having sports celebrities getting involved with money and time to help the kids.

What you are calling for is a moral imperative when you say:

"People need to go out amongst these youngsters and see what motivates ,they are not born evil ,they are a product of our generation's lack of nurture."

In addition, duplicating programs that work (of which you mentioned a few)is just sensible and powerful. In America, we suffer from the same Balkanization of programs that work. There are educational successes in Harlem, South Central Los Angeles, and South Chicago that are never duplicated throughout the system. It is a tragedy that need not happen, and the powers that be (school administrators and unions) sit on their hands and let the system deteriorate in front of their eyes.

Phil, keep up the dialogue. Thanks.

Linda Smith

Henry Sidgwick/Hazlitt, I get it all right. The Holocaust is a fact. I am certain. Are you?

phil

In the Wilderness in America
September 27th, 2009 5:16pm -----------
thanks for the approval -sadly nobody else felt it necessary to make a comment -just more rubbish about what is a fact or an opinion -maybe they think that coming to an agreement on that will ensure a peaceful life for all of us :) even the well meaning Linda seems to have been battered into concussion by the imposter who hides behind another persons name -messrs sidgewick and hazlitt would turn in their graves if they could see what they were being attached to .

Linda Smith

Dear Phil, Sidwick/Hazlitt's philosophical gaming is aimed at bamboozling the unwary into accepting his proposition that no-one can be certain that a fact is not just a personal opinion.

His method: patronising putdown
His objective? Israel bashing.

That's why I bother.

I'm still waiting to hear if he thinks the Holocaust was fact or opinion. I think on this occasion H/S has been hoist by his own petard. Touche!

phil

Linda-the man is not worth the effort -he is the only one who believes (or not) what he says -he is the epitome of one who reads everything and knows nothing .save your powder for something important .

Fergus Pickering

My elder dauhter had a dyslexic problem. And don't any of you flat-earthers say there is no such thing. I now better. She onstantly spelled 'the' and 'teh' and 'het', spelled the same word three different ways in a couple of lines etc etc. She was unable to read until she was nine. The school did not teach her. My wife and I did. And she taught herself. My younger daughter decided she ought to read before she went to school and taught herself from a couple of old ladybird books when she was four years old. I am not slagging off the primary school. My elder daughter had two excellent teachers over her final three years and got into the grammar school, went from there to a good university and has a good job which she is extremely good at. But the school did not teach either of my girls to read and thebooks used for the purpose 'Roger bloody red hat, were termionally boring, much worse than the ones I had in the 1950s which featured a farmer called Old Lob and his menagerie. The books were big and had lovely pictures. I've no idea what system they used but we did a fair bit of chanting. 'I am Old Lob. I am Mister Dan (his dog). I am Mrs Cuddy (cow). I am Mrs Hen. We are the chicks. I am Percy, the bad chick'. Percy was a star. He was also black, though I think for purely pictorial reasons. There was, incdentally, no racism at the school.There couldn't very well be. There were no black or brown children. I don't know if every child learned to read. In a class of forty-five I was a bit hazy about even who some of the children actually were. But I think most of them did. Anyway, Old Lob and Mrs White taught ME to read, and pretty quickly too. We progressed to Story Books of different colours and I to William books, Biggles books, books about Railway Trains and the regrettable Bulldog Drummond. I found the story books rather boring actually.