The British police: a cry from the heart

Ian G

That would be an interesting election pledge -

I will instruct the Police FORCE to take back the streets. I will command them to arrest the criminals and not the victims. Etc. etc.

Of such stuff are dreams made.

John Edwards

I think Melanie might have got hold of the wrong end of the stick here. The problem in this case appears to have been that it was a "hate crime" rather than anti social behaviour directed against the disabled and it should have been treated much more seriously. If abuse of the disabled had been taken more seriously then perhaps this tragic situation could have been prevented.

Many people, including Melanie, mock "diversity" initiatives. But there is a serious underlying purpose as this case illustrates.

Boudicca

Firstly, we need to go back to the idea of a Police Force, not a Police Service.

What a sad indictment of our country and the pathetic attempts of the last Government to 'manage' the yobs who rule many of our streets.

We need to repeal the Human Rights Act and give teachers, the police and the courts the power to act against these young criminals.

JamesC

'Hate crime' means telling someone when they are doing something wrong and getting prosecuted for it. 'Diversity' means accepting people who undermine our christian based justice system. 'crime against disabled should be taken much more seriously', Why?. why should able bodied get a lesser justice. Edwards your full of it.

Pragmatist

Then of course we come to the ultimate obscenity by the Criminal Protection Agency oops sorry the Police. They are now giving the thugs who persecuted the woman and her child PROTECTION. Does anyone need any more evidnce hat the Police are useless 'yuman rites' tools and that the UK is in the grip of left wing insanity.

GaryO

Harassment, bullying, intimidation or any such distress inducing behaviour should not be tolerated in any environment, but you know I wonder if the actions of Leicestershire Police and the social services would have been different (existent even!) if the ethnicity of the victims was different.

Police, schools and social services can only do so much, ultimately it's the parents who should be made accountable for their children's behaviour. These kids, who traumatised the Pilkintons would not have behaved like little angles in their schools or at home – their despicable behaviour would have brought to their parents attention many times in the past and they should have taken steps to instil some respect and responsibility in their kids.

Feral kids are often the product of feral parents and it is the latter we need to concentrate more on and punish in order to make sure that they keep their sprogs in check.

Jez

John Edwards;

You really are missing the point.

A crime is a crime.

You are right in your conclusion though, that if this were labelled a 'hate crime' then the full weight of the law would come crashing around the perpetrators heads.

To label a crime (e.g. a 'hate crime') in this way, is to engineer a reaction regarding the wider community.

To engineer a reaction, then there has to be an underlying reason for this in the first place.

Let's see what the Police will have seen;

An elderly lady with a daughter being harrassed by youngsters.

Who have the 'rights' in that scenario?

The youngsters. Not the victims.

There is no underlying reason to label the victims anything by the police.

The victims are white.

They, or the police bring this up as a hate crime and they could be reprimanded, ridiculed or admonished.

If it was a non-white family in this area at the recieving end of such behaviour, then the regional police commisioner would have been getting an interview with the family outside their house approximately ten minutes after the first call was logged.

There are only cynical reasons why various industries label 'crimes' differently for differing 'labelled' people.

This is simply to further their own agenda's.

Dee Ranged

The police today represent the most visible function of cultural Marixm. They favour one group over another and do so using a perverted rationalisation (in this case a now emaciated bureaucratic legal system) which favours the interest of one group (feral youth)over the common good.

Police leaders should today hang their heads in shame for this manifest betrayal.

They have long abandoned their former motto of carrying out their duty "without fear and without favour".

All of this is thanks to a Government steeped in Cultural Marixm that has politicised the police like never before.

For the average bobby on the street pounding pavements (if at all) their independent professional descrection has now been supplanted by polically induced measures aimed to weaken their effectivness.

This is to acknowledge that the police have become the political puppet of a Government that never, ever, truly beleived in dealing with crime and the causes of crime.

That is one of the biggest lies of the century.

Norm

The Police and CPS go to huge lengths not to prosecute anyone these days. The latest wheeze, Drink Banning Orders, will allow anyone caught committing an offence under the infuence to avoid the courts by paying a 'fee' and attending a 'training course' No conviction required, no criminal record and some cash for the Treasury, which is what it's all about. The Police have been turned into a department of the Inland Revenue. Fighting crime just gets in the way.

phil

Now that TV makes celebrities out of "former gangsters" I was privileged to hear from " mad frankie fraser " that the only working way of deterring criminals is to make the price of being caught one that is too high -it seems he can get it right even if we cannot !!.These kids are not dealt with severely enough to deter them from their idiocy and this poor lady and daughter are far from the first people to have become victims of thugs .

The kid in question can neither read nor write and Christian moral behaviour does not seem to appear on his cv -Should we blame the schools .of course not ,the blame lies squarely at the feet of the parents of these feral kids -as to the police ,their hands are tied and confusion reigns -I have no doubt that most of them are decent people and totally bewildered by the morass of rules that they have to abide by ,including looking after the family who are being blamed .

Most people of a certain age are well aware of the difference in the morality of our nation from when we were growing up ,an age when we did care what others thought about us -we live in an age where prisoners give interviews rather than hide their faces ,where gangsters are celebrities as I referred to earlier .Who do we blame for this ? Successive poor leaderships are surely partly to blame but we have our part too .

I wrote in a a post on "basics "last week of a possible solution for us to help these kids towards a better life not only for them but for us too .Nobody bothered to discuss the matter ,they preferred to argue with the ubiquitous sidgewick as to the meaning of fact -so do you not think it may be our own fault that our world is descending into chaos ?-Many have much to say but nothing to do ,just ask yourselves what are you doing ?-at least I am trying -

Lastly my sympathies to the family if any of that poor lady.,may her soul at last rest in peace .

phil

GaryO excuse my reiteration on your points as I wrote my post without seeing yours

Nicholas

John Edwards your post illustrates perfectly the type of convaluted thinking, that when applied to the simple basics of policing, has resulted in cases like these.

New Labour are guilty of dividing society into groups and applying preferences and prejudices to them. Unfortunately they have suborned the once independent police to this view of communities. The result is policing aimed at satisfying a political ideology rather than protecting everyone from genuine crime and disorder.

Long before your "hate crimes" focussed on particularly categorised "victims" there were perfectly adequate laws designed to protect everyone from crime and disorder of this type. Laws to protect the many have been replaced by laws to protect the few and the police pointed accordingly by their Marxist masters (and mistresses more often). The current "Anti-Social Behaviour Tsar" in the Home Office is one Louise Casey. Google her or start here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/louisecasey.

Her face tells the whole story.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Sometimes it is easy to say the police are useless or waste of space and I am wondering why can't they deal with the ghetto youths, maybe the police don't have enough power to do what they want, the kids from the housing states or "the project houses" who are living in every community are spoiled and bored, the liberal government gave their parents everything they need for free, and what they do when they are bored? they terrorise disable people, old people, they set fire to public parks, steal our bikes, vandalise peoples cars, they throw stones to buses and trains, where are the parents of this kids? in the pub or shopping somewhere with the money that the labour government gave them, it is easy to blame the police but I don't think the problem here is only the police the council and the government are responsible too they give housing states to this kind of people when the nice hard working citizens like teachers and nurses can't get any affordable accommodations to live, if the ASBOs don't behave better then they are now the council should give them warning, if they don't change they should remove them out of the community and replace them other council flats somewhere in mars...

Richard Buckley

I have long believed that parents should be absolutely liable for the actions of any of their children who are aged under 16.

Liz

Oy Nicholas! It looks like a marxist bulldog chewing a wasp!

Lizzy

Good post, Nicholas on
September 30th, 2009 11:26am.

Louise Casey is a yob for yobs, no? In the state of New South Wales in Australia, the government is putting its faith in "designing out crime" (laughable if money were not been thrown at this idea with great abandon) and in changing people's perception of crime and anti-social behaviour. It's all in the mind, you see, of those grumpy people who complain about yobbos... If they didn't complain, there wouldn't be a problem, you know. Anyone who challenges this thinking is contemptously dismissed as right wing by the public servants who follow this ideology.

It's a travesty.

Danny Lemieux

Too bad she didn't couldn't protect herself with a gun. An armed society is a polite society. A defenseless society is...prey!

Cuffleyburgers

Well worth reading "Wasting Police Time" by I-forget-who.

Hands-in-hair stuff.

The loonies really have taken over the asylum, the beat coppers themselves would know what to do. But they are not given the chance.

Augustus

There must be something terribly wrong if, in this sad story, the police can say that they thought the mother had been overreacting (during a seven year period, no less), while these thugs had been actually shouting outside her house: "We can do anything we like and you can't do anything about it", and yet it was reported that yesterday you could barely move down the road where she lived for a uniformed presence, with the sole aim, presumably, of protecting the yobbos who caused her death.

It's about time we get administrators in this country who prioritize defence of the weak from persecution, break up the gang culture by making them scrub the pavements or whatever,
and get the police back from behind desks juggling with paperwork and on the streets where Sgt. Dixon once was.

Blueknight856

Ian, you seem to miss the point. Police should not be commanded by anyone to do anything. Their office (of constable) gives them discretion to arrest/not to arrest. It's that very independence that is being and has been whittled away.

The thing that is needed is warranted officers with powers to patrol the streets, walk the beat, have time to park up and walk, have time to deal effectively with situations.

Brian Williams

The real problem goes back to the interfering busybodies who prevented corporal punishment in schools. These kids receive beatings inconsistently in a meaningless way. School (usually) provided discipline in a consistent way. In loco parentis, you must have an ultimate punishment other than sending the kids home to inconsistent beatings. Policemen used to give these sort of kids a good clip around the ear. The three pillars of authority, parents, teachers, police, have been forbidden to give bad children effective punishment. Only the children of bad parents get beatings now in a way that will not deter bad behaviour. We now have a parental generation that did not experience structured discipline, and they are teaching their children not to respect education or the police who no longer have the ability to enforce it.

Geoff Miller

Edwards. It is people like you that create the confusion and make our country so unfair.

A crime is a crime is a crime.

Why should it be worse if the victim is black or disabled? Hurt and damage is just that. Why should some victims be place above others in a multicultural/diversity pecking order?

It is true what another post said - that if the victims had been black and not white the police would have been and sorted matters out - and in a high profile way.
This kind of intimidation is going on across the UK.

Some years ago my wife and I, along with our neighbours, were subjected to this kind of behaviour. Every night we sat waiting for it to start. Every noise had us on our nerves. Many sleepless nights were had.
Over years we complained and the police were, frankly, a waste of time.
At one point I contacted the Chief Constable directly and this happened:-

An Inspector visited my house, I sat him down to offer him a cup of tea and he then proceeded to threaten and intimidate me because MY complaint had made HIS life uncomfortable. Needless to say he picked on the wrong guy and he was sent away with a flea in his ear.

For two weeks we had patrols.

Afterwards the trouble started again.

One night I saw a gang of youths approaching my house and one threw a stone.

I ran outside and found myself amongst a gang of around 8 16-18 year olds, some over 6 feet tall.

Fortunately I was ex-TA, a keen weight trainer and VERY fired up.

I dragged the stone thrower back to my house and fought off his mates. There was the usual clutch of screaming, foul mouthed, girls in attendance.

But I got the upper hand, my wife called the police and the culprit was taken away (amazingly I wasn't arrested).

Thereafter we had no problems. They walked past our house in silence and on the opposite side of the road to avoid the "crazy man".

However, pensioners, the isolated, the weak, disabled and scared cannot do what I did.

The Police NEED to take back control of the Streets - starting today.

phil

Truthtriumphs you are probably right but there is certain vicarious pleasure in letting him know what a sick little s---t we see him as

Mr. Kwabi

One of my neighbors was been rude to the community, he was bringing his ASBOS friends from school to the neighborhood, they use to harass people coming back from work, one day I been approached by the same gang when I was coming back from work I couldn't go back to my own home because the Asbos was hanging around outside calling me names, I call the police, they told me to write it down the time and date when the abuse happens, they told me to call back after few more harassment because one is not enough evidence, when it happen 3-4 times I call the police again this time they come to my house and they ask me questions, I told all the information, they told me they visited the trouble maker home and he told them I was calling him racist names like the "N" word, how come I could call a black man a racist names when I was coming from the same part of the world he was from? I was treated like a criminal when I was the innocent person the police I just don't know what to say about them

Dave M

"We need to repeal the Human Rights Act and give teachers, the police and the courts the power to act against these young criminals."

It's clear why we're now in this sad state of affairs and basically I blame the Labour Party through and through. What's happened over the decades is while Labour has encouraged massive immigration, welfare has increased as a knock-on effect. To give an example, I know of many trained nurses who couldn't find work as people were being recruited from overseas. So, we now have a huge number of teenagers who have never worked or had a decent education but merely roam the streets without any purpose. So now we have huge anti social behaviour problems as a result.
The logical and only answer to the problem is as follows:
(1) To limit and control immigration so only skilled people are hired from overseas in cases where there are actual skills shortages (such as languages, medicine et cetera. Needless to say, under Labour anyone, skilled or unskilled can come here and work and then use the NHS and so on. This has literally put thousands on the dole. So much for Labour and it's supposed championing of the working classes!
(2) Create programs in education and employment for all those out of work and pay them a salary.
(3) In cases of serious anti social behaviour that's ongoing, conscript troublemakers into the army, possibly for non combat service but at least as ameans to learn self discipline.
Needless to say under Maggie Thatcher at least there were education programs for the unemployed or work experience initiatives. In fact, I know of many unemployed peole who could go to uni under Thatcher with a free grant which didn't have to be paid back.
The truth is the Tories back in the eighties did far more for the working classes than New Labour.

Sam ARMSTRONG

Melanie, I have to tell you about a friend of mine. The poor chap lives in a tower block in Kilburn, London and has been harassed by his neighbours for two years. He tried the cops, he tried Camden Council, he then tried Ms Glenda Jackson, his MP, who wrote a lovely letter on his behalf to the council, but needn't have bothered because the response was: "There is not enough proof". This is not just a Leicestershire problem, it's all over Britain. Needless to say the people downstairs who have been bullying my mate have not even been contacted by Police. It is so true that the Police, probably because they (a) are too afraid to face down thugs, and (b) don't want to admit to anything wrong in society as this would prove how useless they are, are refusing to accept that real, decent people are being killed, killing themselves, or going totally mad because the guardians of the peace have metamorphosed into limp wristed social workers. Rant over. Thanks.

Sam ARMSTRONG

Margaret Muller: absolutely right.

Frankly if I had my way I would block noisy residents from ever living on a council estate again, and if they had nowhere to go I would love to see them curl up in a sleeping bag underneath Blackfriars Bridge with no playstation and no skunk. See how they like it.

Sam ARMSTRONG

John Edwards: you are not making any sense at all. It was the mother, who was not disabled, who decided to burn herself and her disabled daughter to death. Therefore, if efforts had been focussed on the daughter, then the abled bodied party would have gone under the radar, which would have meant her depression would have gone unchecked, and her daughter would still be dead.

Your ideology sucks because you automatically assume that people who are 'different' are better. Whereas the truth is that REAL equality is about treating people equally. Therefore, you discriminate, and your ideology is baseless, empty and bankrupt.

Sam ARMSTRONG

Geoff: thanks very much for the story. I am pleased to hear about another man with integrity who faced down the thugs. I too am a big chap and just cannot BEAR to walk away from these things. I just can't, I have to defend. And like you, I feel deeply sorry for those who don't have enough supply of muscle and anger to keep themselves safe. It is of course a national tragedy that inteligent people have to resort to these ways in the 'birthplace of democracy'.

Fergus Pickering

I was educated in Scotland in the 1960s. There was corporal punishment and plebty of it. We had a French teacher, not a very good teacher but she knwe French, had a first class degree in it. We made her life a misery. She comlained to our form master. He punished every one of us with a belt, three ecash, very bloody painful. HJe said, 'I don't care who did it and who didn't. I just don't want to be bothered again. He wasn't. We were still nasty to the poor woman, but less nasty, not because we gfelt sorry for her - we were fifteen year-old boys, spotty, feral and disgusting (too much wanking, I don't know) but because we feared the form master's belt. Just an anecdote.

Frank P

Fergus Pickering (7.04pm)

If the typos in your comment are any indication, the memory of all that corporal punishment gets you very excited; this type of flogging often leads to sexual deviations we are told by the trick-cyclists. Could this be the explanation for your oft expressed and weird desire for the rodentia tamias, aka Hazel Blears. Or have you gone off her, following her political demise?

Joe Strummer

I've heard and read that the horrific ordeal suffered for years on end by that poor woman and her family was " an exceptional case". I beg to differ. Right now, up and down this country, in almost every neighbourhood, there will be good and decent families, who are a threat to no-one, enduring similar long-term malicious bullying and harassment by feral scum.

The Pilkingtons may indeed have been an "exceptional case" to our social liberal elite who will never see up close and personal the damage they have inflicted on this country which has spawned the epidemic of lawless and fearless young criminals. I also know that when the Inquest into the deaths of the Pilkingtons is over we will hear and read the cringeing and trite phrase of how " lessons must be learned", which of course they won't. Well not until the next time......

skydog

GaryO:'Feral kids are often the product of feral parents'

Gary, 'parents' is a misnomer, these are merely people who met (often on only one occasion) and produced offspring. At best, they are people who have children. 'Parents' they are not.

Geoff M

Skydog.

I like your comment.

It reminds me of a comment that Jeremy Clarkson made when some woman was priding herself on giving birth to a child, as if it made her something special.

His reply was "Yes, and spiders can do that".

So many people who call themselves parents are no better than spiders. They just produce offspring and have no idea about parenting, socialising of even being decent human beings.

Just like spiders.

And, like spiders, we should just stamp on them.

Linda Smith

Phil (30 Sep 11:17) I wrote in a a post on "basics "last week of a possible solution for us to help these kids towards a better life not only for them but for us too .Nobody bothered to discuss the matter ,they preferred to argue with the ubiquitous sidgewick as to the meaning of fact -so do you not think it may be our own fault that our world is descending into chaos ?-Many have much to say but nothing to do ,just ask yourselves what are you doing ?-at least I am trying -

Whether you like it or not, the philosophising of people like the "ubiquitous sidgewick" is the crux of the problem. Every social system is predicated on an underlying philosophy. Ours presently runs on extreme relatavism, of which Sidgwick/Hazlitt is a proponent. The mantra is that as there is no god's eye view and we are all subjective, therefore there are no facts, only opinions. Hence, because none of us can be certain of anything, no individual can criticise the ideologies, religious or otherwise of anyone else; all must be respected as equally valid.
The extreme relativist searches for universal aspects of human life; these are in the main physical - if you cut me do I not bleed - to make universal ethics and rules/law to live by. These they call human rights, eg the right not to be killed. Context/reasons/motives are irrelevant. The body count is all that matters - hence the criticism of the Gaza conflict predicated on numbers killed. Whoever kills the most people is the baddie.

Extreme relativism ordains that no-one can judge anyone else from their own moral framework, or impose their own moral framework on anyone else, ie make rules that may impinge or conflict with the moral framework of the other. We land up with the mantra: "we mustn't be judgemental." even if the moral framework of the other is supremacist and threatens our own freedom, eg if we can have nuclear weapons, then so can Iran.

In the extreme relativist philosophy that paradoxically reigns supreme, no valuesystem/moral framework has any more value than any other, so no-one can criticise/judge anyone else's behaviour from a moral point of view, only the restricted framework of "human rights".. Teachers (and the police) fear being seen as judgemental, so they act in the manner of non-judgemental counsellors. Teachers are barred from exerting any form of authority or discipline over children who have been given the "rights" of adults to choose their own moral framework and way of life. So we end up with sexually active children and schoolgirl mothers. Anyone acting with authority is perceived as behaving like a nazi, treading on personal freedom and trouncing their "human rights".

Solution? Attack the underlying philosophy and expose its fallacies - "Look! The emperor has no clothes."

phil

Linda I can but admire your scholarship ,but mine is founded on mere common sense and caring about others -I do not care what HS thinks he is an irrelevance to me and pretending to be philosopher from the past shows me what a poser he is .At least we write in our own names.

YOUR
"Solution? Attack the underlying philosophy and expose its fallacies - "Look! The emperor has no clothes." ---I fear the feral's cannot read nor write so reasoning with them will avail nothing -mine which is only a suggestion is at least practical and so far as usual has been passed over in order for others to insult one another or offer opinions that are nothing to do with the subject matter-I feel at times that I am in a mad house here where most run around throwing things at one another and do not take any heed of what is said -There are of course notable exceptions like yourself TT and CG and others of course but I note Adam B and Kate A and many other caring souls have disappeared -I wonder why -btw I have quoted "the king has no clothes etc " many times recently to my friends,I find it very apt ;)

I have said before that I write because I believe we are responsible for the society that we create and I am trying to effect change for what I believe is a better one ,one where people care about one another regardless of colour or creed -It is not very rewarding as I am sure you will have felt yourself when you read the efforts of edwards ,marcus from the USA and HS and at times I feel it is not worth the effort -I know you defend vigorously both Israel and the Jewish people and I applaud you for that ,but honestly I do not care what they say nor what they think of us ,they were never there to help us when we needed it ,so what they think of us is also an irrelevance -I do not seek their admiration -

I said last week that both Israel and the Jewish people must never deviate from the path of goodness and we must stay strong in our belief of the ultimate outcome of that policy .

Linda Smith

Phil, the problem is that the stuff Sidglitt spouts is taught in universities:"competing narratives" and "images of oppression". That is why the Britain we grew up in is being destroyed.

Verity

Geoff M - Why on earth would you stamp on a spider? What on earth could a spider do to you that you should kill it before it even has a notional chance to try?

Save your energy for stamping, one way or another, on the feral scum in Britain's public housing.

Stamping on spiders is a horrible idea. Why?

nearly run over four times but im getting used to it

It is a rare occassion indeed when the police take back the streets but it does happen. one occassion was omnths ago when officers charged towards a crowd of youths outside asda (the supermarket i call the caliphate because they allow staff to wear headscarves). the youths panicked and squealed a bit but asda got a broken window a few eeeks later. Theyve had mysterious fires - must have been one bill baileys british rail biscuits exploding out of boredom or something. Two broken glass doors. Some interesting verbal exahnges in which when i comment on islam i get shouted down with the insult paedophile or the threat want jihad.
i was nearly used to it by now and it happens outside pipash restuarant somehwere i never eat, neither do i shop inasda despite its inherently weird interest on this score alone, since i bought a micro wave and gotr stopped as a possible shop lifter.
How i ask you do you get a microwave in your pocket im just dying to know.
Cambridge is psycho jihadi correction zone, its is designed to scorrect you into being a passive jihadi.
Long live free speech and long live the police that have balls rather than bureacracy....i didnt know they had it in them!!!

nice acoustics
they got a louder endition of my opinions concerning their friends than tesco and ive dropped more food on the floor than i did at tesco when the black headscarves turned up for a short spree of dhimmi mocking that ended quickly so my supermarket boycott is relaxed but not at asda...i dont shop there anymore they can keep their bl**dy jihadi sh£& and good bl**dy luck.

my name is harry palmer

Quite a few shops get their windows broken in cambridge but the most pro palestinian go absolutley untouched.
I have a theory...

GeoffM

Verity.

Calm down dear.

My mention of spiders was to make a comparison between the low life scum that infest British streets and similar kinds of inhuman insect (yes, and I know spiders are not strictly insects) - not launch a Jihad against them.

However - if you lived where I do you stamp first and ask questions later. They can be poisonous. One of my neighbours had to have his hand amputated after a bite - and thats only in France.

They will be over in the UK soon, I hear, as your weather warms up.

Be careful whats lurking in your woodpile!

Can I still say that? Or is it hate speech?

phil

Linda Smith it has not gone unnoticed that these stupid unworldly professors have led the boycott of Israeli universities and teaching hospitals ,their union has been hijacked by idiots like that so is it any wonder that impressionable young people are influenced by them ?.They continue to feed lies ,although it may be that they are so unworldly that they actually believe that what they are saying is true -It cannot take much of a brain to realise the futility of constant war to the Israeli people ,but maybe it comforts our purveyors of knowledge ,whilst drinking their never ending pints ,to think it is the desire of Israel to fight endlessly , .This is somewhat off the point of this thread but I feel like saying it !

Drakken

I am just wondering when Britain will arm itself again? When the police can't protect you of yours, it is up to you to do it. Thank God we in the states have the 2 nd Amendment and know how to use it.

geoff bamsey

The comments of the former police officer must reflect the views of any who served when the police 'controlled the streets'. Is there no-one left commanding the 43 forces or amongst those in the office of Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary who remember those days, or is it not in their interests to say so ?

geoff bamsey

The comments of the former police officer must reflect the views of any who served when the police 'controlled the streets'. Is there no-one left commanding the 43 forces or amongst those in the office of Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary who remember those days, or is it not in their interests to say so ?

quadratus

Frightening!