Not with a bang but a whimpering vote

E Paddon

Of such acts, wars are made. Which of the great powers in the European Union will be the first to cry: "Hold. That's enough!"?

Thinkster

Melanie, no one cares! As per The Times of yesterday, far too many have escaped to the peachy land of Prince Charlie, while the rest of the populace (most journos included) are plugged into the streams of addictive tosh emanating from our flat screen RDMs (Reality Distortion Machines.) I have not studied this subject, but I did once read that while Communism kept people in check through a combination of fear and restrictions on independent wealth (and therefore power), flawed implementations of capitalism achieve the same by keeping us occupied with more and more 'disposable' distractions and high taxes.

We really are being attacked on all fronts now. Goddam, how subservient the English are! No fire in the belly, unless it's bashing the industrious!

Gawd bless America, for she still understands the meaning of Liberty.

field

Parliament does not have the right to sell the rights of a free self-governing community. Al this legislation is illegitimate. As with the Soviet states who won back their independence, it can all be swiftly reclaimed within 6 months if the political will is there.

Roy

Isn't there so much similarity with the EU and Islamism? One it seems has swallowed the nation whole ( hope it gets indigestion), and the other has caused an incurable cancerous growth in it's internal organs. The beast that did the eating could have been shot, and the disease might have been prevented if it had been diagnosed early enough, by doctors with an atom of faith.

Kevyn Bodman

Melanie, Absolutely right. The politicians have lied to us and stolen from us our rights and powers as voters to give them partly to themselves and partly to Brussels. I urge every voter to vote against his/her MP if that MP voted against the referendum they promised. What I would like to do is withdraw my consent from the government, but how can it be done? An article like this from Melanie provokes 2 reactions, 1)Pleasure.Isn't it good to read such clear, and correct,thinking. 2)Despair.The fear that we truly have lost.

Neil

This has to be the greatest act of treachery in British History since the archtraitor Vortrgyn soldout the Romano-Celts to the invading Anglo-Saxons 1500 years ago Diogenes

John

We might as well have the shame this brings upon our country hastened as much as possible - since this will hopefully galvanise the sleeping populace that much earlier into open rebellion against the EU superstate of which we have now become a province.

Water

Time for revolution, we need an uprising. What in the hell is this, no matter what your color or your religion we must band together, we must rise. This is not what people died for in the World Wars

Ann

I agree with Field and Neil that the 'legislation' is illegal by virtue of being treasonable. It is perfectly possible, if people band together, to bring prosecutions for treason against senior politicians. Also with Paddon: I have long said that this will end in tears, if not in our lifetime then certainly within 50 years. Such bloated empires always collapse under their own weight, and in this case there are going to be more and more repulsive forces between the countries as they are pressed closer and closer together. Eventually, the sluggish English (and others) will have had enough and there will be a massive outcry to leave the EU, which I have been urging for years and which can be accomplished within months without any shots being fired. How will the EU stop a country leaving?

THX1138

How can you extinguish history it's happen. We still have 1000 years of British history. You can't change the past only the future.

Tony Allwright

It's a terrible step that the Commons has taken. Britain now depends on the Lords to save it, or failing that the Irish, the only people to be allowed a referendum. The treaty itself stinks. And it is deliberately unintelligible because the drafters are well aware that no-one who understands it would ever approve it. And since it takes some 36 hours of hard study to absorb it, you can be sure that no MP has done so. Read this from the Irish Times to see why no-one should vote yes. I hope the British will support Ireland's No campaign.

roGER

"One thousand years of British history have been extinguished without a shot being fired..." Really Melanie, I often wonder what language you would use if something truly disastrous happened - like foreign tanks rolling down Whitehall. For your information; our history goes on, whether you tell us its been extinguished or not...

phil

. I realise I am in a minority here ,and I am not advocating anything in favour of the EU ,but what I don't understand is why so many think a referendum will bring a better result for all of us -we have elected our MP,s to represent us and they have far more knowledge than our average citizen (please no cynicism) -why do you all want andy cap with his info from the sporting chronicle to decide our future rather than our Parliament -Not everyone is as well informed as the readers of this blog ,so my fear is that the future will be decided by a not to well read and informed country through emotion and not reason-arrogant ,I hope not just realistic -No doubt later postings will tell me to have more confidence and sincerely I would like to .We all want the best for our country ,but I believe many are just reacting in a way Great Britain seems to be evolving viz: distrust for our authorities and leaders .A good start would be to check out the value now of STERLING against the EURO ,then look back at where we started -does anyone think we are better off ?-I despise the way laws come down to us from Brussels but we do have an influence if we deal with the EU in a sensible way -maybe you can enlighten me ,so come on you guys tell me nicely where I am wrong .Please no insults ,I care as much as you

Ann

Err, Phil: would you also remove people's right to vote for their MP? All your spurious arguments would apply just as much to that, had they any merit.

Ann

It is blind people like Roger who have brought us to this sorry pass: people who wilfully refuse to see that being ruled from Brussels, by a foreign power, IS the end of independent British history. -- I urge everyone to email Clegg (nickclegg at sheffieldhallam dot org dot uk) to express disgust at this cowardly and mendacious failure to honour a manifesto pledge by the 'party of different and honest politics', and promise to vote against his candidate next time.

phil

Ann i cant find anywhere in my posting that I wished to remove any rights from anyone READ IT -I also asked that people reply without insults -every post you make is filled with venom -Iasked for explanations to my reasonable doubts -do you actually have any -just try and be nice .you will feel better

Herbert Thornton

Try reading this link - with particular attention to these bits -

"governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

"whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government"

Read too this accusation among the others made against King George III -

"He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution".

Gordon Brown obviously has a lot in common with King George III. Even worse, he doesn't just ignore the principle of government by consent - he is governing in a way that he knows at least 80% of the people oppose.

Government in Britain is now even more rotten than it was in the time of George III.

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html

Ann

Poor phil: he writes some nonsense, others show why it is nonsense - and he thinks that is an 'insult'. Perhaps you need to look up the word 'insult'. Clearly, you cannot grasp the difference between attacking an opinion and attacking a poster. I did the former. You did the latter. And then you have the chutzpah to call MY posts 'venom'. What a loser.

Ann

PS. You also need to realise what you are missing by totally failing to grasp the concept of --irony--, phil.

Ann

Indeed, Herbert. That was what I meant when I wrote about treasonable acts.

alan stoddart

I see the Irish are probably going to announce a referendum on the Lisbon constitution next week.

Joe Strummer

We truly exist in such scary and dangerous times. The British people seem either lobotomised by a crass decadent culture or have meekly accepted their fate. The proud but equally modest Britain I knew has gone forever.

Roy

Well if not gone forever Joe, they will be unrecognisable. Like modern livestock bred for the table we will be culled and caressed to suit a ruling elite. Molly-coddled in an artificial environment like battery hens, three, four or five to a cage, to wake up one morning and find the feed trolley and mucking out machine are no more.

phil

Herbert thank you for taking the trouble to respond ,and in a civilised way ,unlike the fragrant ann . I watched newsnight yesterday and it was apparent that not only some of the panellists didn't understand the full context of the treaty ,and admitted it ,but also many of the audience -so that is my problem ,that the population will not be voting on such an important matter with a proper knowledge of the salient points.My feeling is that the MP,s are paid to understand this treaty and that is their job and expertise -joking apart they are educated and intelligent so I feel more comfortable accepting their judgement . I believe totally in democracy and the power of the people ,but sometimes I think they need to accept delegation -for instance our judges and law courts. I have no doubt I will receive further insults and invective from our co blogger ann ,but I am grateful for the input of others such as you ,so I will pay the price and smile

Betrayed Englishman

They,nulabour the EU mafia and its cohorts wont be able to stop "'till they've ground our bones to make their bread" !! We once believed in democracy, and for their sins, it died on Wednesday evening.

Herbert Thornton

Phil

Your argument reflects what Edmund Burke said in his famous speech to the electors of Bristol in 1774 -

"Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion."

That is a persuasive argument in most circumstances, but it pre-supposes that the representative is also a man of honour.

When our representatives promise that they will not make a decision that will profoundly affect their country's sovereignty without first consulting the electors - and then renege on that promise - then I say that they are not men of honour.

I say that they are in fact men of cynicism and deceit. Would Edmund Burke, on the basis of what he said to the electors of Bristol, and in these circumstances, have defended the MPs who voted against a referendum ? I cannot bring myself to believe so.

I believe that Burke would have said that the Members' votes refusing the promised referendum was not an honest exercise of judgment. He would have said instead that they perpetrated a monumental betrayal of the people who voted for them - a betrayal made even worse because it was perpetrated with full knowledge of the importance that electors attached to it.

Davyd Bowen

I should think that with 60 million plus Britons, a million or so from London alone would ring the Parliament buildings in silent contempt...and then turn their backs. Failing that, pass by and drop one white feather till only the clock remained. Some faded British traditions cry out to be revived. Tommorrow then? Or the day after perhaps.

PHIL

Herbert I take your point and have to say I agree with your sentiments but it does not alleviate my fear of the intellectual input or lack of it that will be applied to the voting -well time marches on and we will see what we will see -my best wishes to you and thanks for the trouble you have taken

Rob

Melanie - i won't comment on your silly anti-Euripean rant exceopt to enquire how "One thousand years of British history have been extinguished" when Britain only came into being with the Union Of the Crowns in 1603? To a Scot there's not much difference in being ruled from Brussels or London, except that Scotland has never fought a war against Belgium.