Genocide with jam on it

Ann

I have long regarded Amnesty as a viciously antisemitic organisation, and Oxfam as only marginally less so. I will never have any truck with the latter again.

Jeremy Havardi

Indeed. NGOs, like Amnesty International and Christian Aid produce distorted, politically left of centre 'reports' which are then treated with a sickening dose of reverence. How often do you see the BBC actually question the political agendas of these groups? Sadly, we inhabit a world where victim culture and political correctness are now ubiquitous.

Tom

For those not in the know about Oxfam's attitude towards Gaza, do read this essay by its director Barbara Stocking. Many posters saw straight through her.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/02/01/do0108.xml

Mrs W

Well written you, we have been telling the BBC this for the last few years they are as thick as planks or anti semitic and Blair aint helping. Even some Baptist arab Christians think God is going to give the land to them He will not He will give it to those described in Ephesians 3 verse 6 it is the promised land not the maybe land.

Martin David

I am disappointed in Oxfam for taking sides in this debate. I could understand it if they were impartial throughout the whole thing, but the stance they have taken has put me right off supporting them.

Wahida Shaheen

I am truly lost for words after reading your unwarranted attack on the very agencies that are try to work towards peace between Palestinians and Israeli’s. Their outcry on Israel’s current and unlawful actions cannot be seen as anything but admirable and necessary by any sane person. Amnesty International, amongst the organisations, you have targeted, is respected internationally for its unbiased work to protect those people who’s rights are being violated. I would urge people to visit http://www.amnestyusa.org/By_Country/Israel/page.do?id=1011175&n1=3&n2=30&n3=925 for a more balanced prospective.

Benjamin

Worth pointing out four factual errors in this:

1) The blockade of Gaza was implemented in June 2007 after the Hamas coup but BEFORE Hamas began firing rockets. Hamas actually only began firing rockets at Israeli civilian targets in January 2008 after more than 50 of its militants had been killed in targeted killings.

2) Any civilised country would treat wounded enemy.

3) Israel has an effective veto over the Rafah border crossing: the annex of the AMA on Rafah was a trilateral one between Israel, Egypt and the PA

4) the humanitarian NGOs main concern is the lack of electricity, water and a sewage system - not basic food stuffs. None of those could be provided through the tunnel systems.

Quite an achievement for such a short article. Especially since the rest of it is padded out with foam-flecked madness.

roGER

"Such NGOs are simply dyed-in-the-wool, vicious and bigoted Israel-haters, and everything they ever say about that most beleaguered of countries is filtered through that vile prism." What an extraordinary allegation! Do you really mean "Anti-Semitic" when you wrote "Israel-haters"? If so, have you the slightest scrap of evidence to back up such a serious and wide ranging charge?

Barry Meislin

Amnesty (and its ilk) would appear to be saying that since conditions were far better when Israel was in control of Gaza, that Israel simply ought to re-occupy it to. And without a doubt, those acutely moral organizations would like to see Israel to reoccupy the Sinai as well. And even occupy Darfur. And Zimbabwe. And on, and on.... Not that they can actually say these things. They have their reputations to consider.

Joshua

Truly Israel has become the Jew of nations. At the very most, they will, with a sigh and an air of grudging acceptance, suggest that Israel has a right to exist. On the other hand, they reject all means Israel uses to defend itself. Of course, all this is rooted in anti-Semitism. Nothing else can possibly explain the insane double-standards or the obvious hatred of Israel. If Britain shared a border with a nation committed to her destruction and which sent out suicide bombers to murder and maim and shot thousands of rockets and other deadly missiles at her towns and cities, without a shadow of a doubt Albion would do no less to that nation than she did to Dresden and hardly a soul would raise a complaint.

phil

Wahida ,a blessing on you -that is the first word I have noticed from a Palestinian supporter that talks about a peace between both parties -it is so encouraging and I thank you for that -nevertheless I have no trust with these agencies whom I believe cause needless hatred with their distortions -We need more peole like you and I who really want peace and justice for both sides -my best regards to you

Sean Healy

Be careful Melanie: the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto were able to smuggle in weapons while starving. I agree with your general argument here, but you've left yourself exposed on that particular score.

jon

An aid worker has just described the rocket attacks on Israel,as "not constructive"!!(5Live,12.55pm,March 6th,'07);one just hit a synagogue,(thankfully empty)-http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e51_1204749520 - the BBC did give air to an Israeli spokesman who revealed that Gaza crossings get closed because they get attacked and fired upon;(rare BBC balance)

john doe

Shame on Sean Healy for comparing the Warsaw Ghetto with Gaza. Unbelievable ignorance! Educate yourself! Read, read and read. Or is that too much to ask? Don't you know what the Warsaw Ghetto was like? Why it existed? The scale and horror of it? Are you really saying that the Israelis are trying to annihilate the Arabs in Gaza? Insane! Are you really saying that the conditions in Gaza are comparable? Are thousands dying of starvation and disease? I'm appalled by this comment.

szeni

Amnesty, Oxfam and the rest of the charity industry are prostituting human rights to bash Israel. Like characters in a medieval passion play, they got hold of the Jew and won't let up, while the BBC is cheering the lynch mob on.

George

Benjamin, You really should check your facts... 1) Hamas has been shooting rockets at Israeli civilian targets since 2000. 2) I agree. How does that define Hamas and their treatment of Gilad Shalit? 3) True, but not relevant. Egypt doesn't want the border open. Also, there is a third border - the sea. 4) There is no lack of water or electricity in Gaza. Nor is there a lack of money to build a proper sewage system, unless of course the money is spent on unnecessary weapons systems and on padding the bank accounts of corrupt politicians. As our American cousins would put it, you are batting 0 for 4.

Ann

On a grey day, light relief by reading the foam-flecked madness, ignorance and bias of Roger, Benjamin and Wahida. If you think the Jews are going to roll over and die for the likes of you, please tell us what planet you live on. It surely isn't earth. Maybe Cloud Cuckoo-Land. -- The screeching anti-Israel bias of Oxfam, Amnesty and Al Beeb is antisemitic by definition, since they don't exhibit such unremitting hatred towards China, Syrya and Iran. End of. Case dismissed. Next!

Steve

Benjamin: It is worth pointing out your particular biases in pointing out Phillips' 'factual errors'. 1. Is it your implication that prior to firing rockets Hamas made no terrorist attacks against Israel? It seems that this is what you want readers to think. Hamas has been killing (and trying to kill) Israeli civilians for years and the TKs are a proportionate response to this! Your time scale smacks of bias. 2. Yes you are right about this - civiliased nations care for the wounded enemy. But please do add that the country most civilised in this respect (maybe the only one in the area)is Israel. I am not aware of Hamas treating wounded Israelis when they get the chance. I wont go into what they actually do! 3.Israel has an effective veto because the PA nd Egypt have proved unable (and unwilling) to prevent terrorism against Israel. Recall the recent events at the Egyptian border - and the suicide bombing soon after. 4. Yes the NGO's are concerned about electricity water etc. but you fail to mention that Hamas has responsibility for these services as the ruling government. Why is Israel to blame for Hamas' neglect and their use of resources to wage terrorism? It is not implausible to think that Hamas want conditions to deteriorate for propoganda purposes. Hamas has no scruples about how to use the Palestinian civilians for their own purposes. They certainly had no qualms killing Fatah members when they wanted to gain control. Quite an achievement for such a short response to get so much wrong and to twist so much. Especially since the rest of it reeks of undeserved and self-serving righteousness.

alan stoddart

Why did they choose 1967 as the reference date, why not the date of Hamas' takeover? And for the BBC, it is not 'extremists' launching rockets, it is the government of Gaza itself. Apparently the Israelis are all leading 'recognisably normal lives' according to Jim Naughtie....since when has he been under constant rocket bombardment with 15 seconds to take cover?

Charities are supposed to be non-political but more and more they intervene in the politics of a situation by suggesting, or rather stating, what policies should be followed. Apart from the fact that they are unelected, this breaks their own golden rule because it puts their own people at risk because they can be seen as taking one side or the other in a conflict...here they probably feel safe as they know they will not be targeted by the Israelis.

Benjamin

George. Funnily enough I think that even you think I'm batting 2-2. And on the other two I'm actually right and you're wrong.

1) Hamas were firing rockets in 2000 but had not fired any against civilian targets since Israeli disengagement in 2005. The blockade began in June 2007 and precipitated the current humanitarian crisis i.e. before the resumption of rocket fire. I am right you and Melanie Phillips are wrong.

2)As militants/terrorists not as a civilised state. I was disputing Melanie Phillips's claim that only Israel would treat injured enemy combatants. She was wrong. You and I seem to agree that I was right.

3) I am glad you accept that what I said was true. However, the sea border is closed. As is Gazan airspace - both by the Israelis. Hence the general belief that Israel continues to exercise effective control over the Gaza strip (it's more complicated than that under international law, of course.)

4) Corrupt Palestinians. Better believe it! They are a terrible lot who treat their own people with disdain and arrogance. But again you are wrong to think that excuses Israel. The UN has reported that there are 275 000 people in Gaza without access to running water. The average electricity black outs are currently running at 8 hours a day. The sewage treatment works can't be carried out because Israel won't allow the concrete through the Karni crossing. None of which is to deny that Hamas is capable of both exacerbating and capitalising upon the misery of the Gazan people.

Ann - I do actually find it sad that you think that those who criticise the actions of the State of Israel are anti-semitic. I believe in a two-state solution. I believe that the actions of Israel (and the actions of Hamas) are undermining the possibility of that. In the long run the loser will be Israel - demographically Israel has only about 25 years before it ceases to be a Jewish majority state.

Edward

Hamas controls Gaza? Vous plaisantez, non?

London Calling

'Cheese with Pickle on it' more like. It is not a question of accusation, but facts, when organization's like Oxfam, Amnesty, Care International are all in agreement that the condition's in Gaza is a humanitarian disaster for its citizens, it cannot all be biased, are you all really in agreement, or denial? If making a nation suffer by having no access to a supply of, water electricity and food, how can you justify this by saying blame Hamas and that the above is making it all up? Yes Isreal does have a right to defend itself, but not to make all peoples suffer the consequences, this is not the way forward and neither will Israel gain support globally. These comments and Melanie's are completely biased in my view, I agree to disagree, but you can debate it until the cows come home, The grass is green not blue, with respect.

Ann

Benjamin, you do need to look urgently at your reading skills, which would fail a GCSE student. I never said that criticising Israel is per se antisemitic. I said, and will continue to say, that criticising Israel unremittingly while giving its Nazi enemies a free pass is antisemitic. Your selective reading is all too familiar, so don't pat yourself on the back for being original: the antisemitic BBC does it every day.

Ann

"None of which is to deny that Hamas is capable of both exacerbating and capitalising upon the misery of the Gazan people" - the usual mealy-mouthed nonsense from the woolly-brained moral relativists. They are not 'capable' of it: they are doing it, have been doing it from day 1, and it is their fundamental policy to do it, because that is their means towards their declared end, namely the destruction of Israel. The faint, apologetic half-criticism one hears here towards a self-declared gang of genocidal Nazis is utterly sickening.

Ted

Says London Calling: "when organization's [sic] like Oxfam, Amnesty, Care International are all in agreement that the condition's in Gaza is a humanitarian disaster for its citizens, it cannot all be biased". Why not? There is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, but that is the fault of the Palestinians' leaders. That is where the bias comes in. I'm not Jewish, never been to Israel and don't have any close Jewish friends but I'm stuffed if I'll swallow the claptrap that I hear from Oxfam, Amnesty and others who ply this drivel under the camouflage of 'charidee'.

Juliette Seibold

No Melanie, We are not vicious dyed-in the wool Israel haters. Some of us began our work in Israel in 1948 helping vulnerable holocaust survivers fleeing Europe with shelter, food and work. As a friend of Israel and the Palestinians you will note that we call on all sides to cease the violence and to resume negotiations. The borders around Gaza are controlled by Israel and therefore humanitarian goods cannot enter without Israel's permission. At present insufficient humanitarian goods are entering this narrow strip of land where 1.5 million people are de facto locked up: clinics and hospitals are missing 85 essential drugs; there's insufficient fuel to run hospitals, ambulances and homes; the water and sewage network is at breaking point because cement, spare parts and other materials are prohibited. The lack of fuel to pump sewage means 40,000 or more metric tonnes of sewage is spilling daily into the sea. This puts the coast lines of Gaza, Egypt and Israel at risk of serious contamination. Raw sewage is also bubbling up in the streets. Almost 2,000 children have dropped out of school because their parents - who are now largely unemployed as businesses have gone bankrupt - cannot afford to send them. The new school year started with shortages of textbooks and other crucial items due to the blockade. The once high exam pass rates in Gaza have tumbled. There is an 80% failure rate amongst children in grades four to nine and a 90% failure rate in Math. Children make up 56% of the population in Gaza and they didn't vote for Hamas. We have condemned outright the rocket attacks from Gaza against Israeli civilians. So too we condemn the violence and devastation wrecked on Gazans by Israel. Israel current strategy of blockading Gaza isn't protecting Israeli citizens and it isn't protecting Gazan citizens so the sensible response is change it: negotiate.

benjamin

Ann - I find it hard to stoop to your level, I'm afraid. If you really don't think that Amnesty ever criticises China, for example, then I am afraid your grasp of the current international human rights discourse is too poor for me to convince you that you are wrong. I would never pat myself on the back for being anti-semitic. Partly because I am not. Partly because I abhor anti-semitism. But I do pat myself on the back for being far better informed and far more intelligent than you are.

Steve makes some more interesting points but lets himself down with a needlessly daft remark at the end.

1) Hamas stopped attacks on Israeli civilian targets in December 2004. That lasted for about three years. But I accept your point that starting the narrative in June 2007 and then blaming Israel for everything that followed would be - is - indeed biased. I do not hold that view. But I did wish to correct MP's bald assertion that the humanitarian crisis was a direct result of Hamas rocket attacks. Israel could and should have done more to ease movement and access out of Gaza between June and December 2007. And opening the crossings remains a key element of defusing the current situation.

2) I am not convinced that e.g. the Jordanian government would be incapable of providing medical support for enemy casualties. But I am happy to agree with you that many governments in the region have appalling human rights records.

3) Egypt was unable more than unwilling to prevent terrorists moving over the Rafah border (incidentally the suicide bombers at Dimona were Hamas but from Hebron in the West Bank not from Gaza). Egypt could indeed open up the border to Gaza but its great fear is that Gaza would then become its problem not Israel's. And they have troubles enough with Islamic extremists. Israel is still considered (by the international community though not by the Israelis themselves) to be the occupying power in Gaza so has special (but far from absolute) responsibilities with regard to the humanitarian situation there.

4) As I said, I have no doubt (I'll clear this up for Ann who misunderstands the more subtle uses of the English language) that Hamas has deliberately exaggerrated and indeed exacerbated the scale of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza (though that crisis is real enough). But Hamas doesn't actually have the responsibility for the water and electricity supply to Gazans, Israel does - as the Israeli high court found in a ruling two weeks ago.

Ann - please don't respond to these cogent and adult comments with more of your childish invective. You are embarrassing yourself and undermining those on this thread who may strongly oppose the actions of the NGOs today but who are able to formulate cogent and considered arguments.

Ravi

Hang-on a minute!!! BBC is constantly broadcasting this report about Gaza facing the worst humanitarian crisis since 1967. (Not a very transparent agenda is it?) What happened in 1967? Arabs attacked Israel and lost and so Gaza was occupied by the victorious Israel Army. Egypt dumped Gaza and gave it to Israel. Then Gaza went through many prosperous years with Gazans working in Israel and for Israel farms and agriculture. Then comes the Intifadas and then the take-over of Gaza by Hamas. So its clear. Gazans have suffered by the hands of themselves. Did we have reports about "Gaza economy booming" when the Palestinians had the highest earnings per capita of any Arab country in the region? Did they suddenly fall into crisis due to some whim of Israel after 40 years of encouragement (despite the suicide bombings). I am sorry but I am laughing at the moment watching BBC news report on Gaza interviewing a man with ten kids complaining how poor he is! Does he see any connection? I know for a fact (because I watched the news conference live) that Abbas at his concvened meeting berated Hamas for the violence when two Fatah school-children were killed and just before Haniye returned with suitcases of money. He berated Hamas for firing rockets at Israel just as he was negotiating billions of dollars of investment from Japan from which the pulled-out. There is NO doubt in my mind that the Gazans are 100% responsible for their plight and anything to the contrary is Antisemitically motivated Israel bashing. Given the leftist nature of so-called "Human Rights" organisations and the proven Antisemitic bias exercised by the left in proposed Israel boycotts, the case can be made.

George

Benjamin, you state: "Funnily enough I think that even you think I'm batting 2-2." Obviously I don't, because otherwise I would have said so. If this is how you manage to misunderstand even a simple sentence, no wonder that you get everything else wrong as well.

Sean Healy

John Doe, I'm afraid you've misunderstood the purpose of the comparison. I simply wanted to demonstrate that Melanie had teed up a point-scoring opportunity for her opponents. In other words, if the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto chose to and were able to smuggle in weapons while also starving, surely it doesn't help that much to point out that Hamas is doing so in Gaza (where, I hasten to add, conditions are nothing like the Warsaw ghetto) because it allows Amnesty, et al to make this comparison in way that favours Hamas. See what I mean? The sounder argument (which Melanie also makes) is that Gaza also has a border with Egypt, where thousands of Palestinians recently chose to buy cigarettes and white goods instead necessities when that border was breached by Hamas.

Nick Collins

Benjamin - I have good news for you - Israel will still be a Jewish Country in 25 years time so no need to worry. While it is comforting that you believe in a two state solution, your monochrome view of the conflict and your complacent support for the NGOs suggests that you have no understanding of the true reality of this tragic conflict. If you can't understand that Hamas are entirely at fault in postponing the two state solution,and then actually blame Israel for starting the current round of fighting,then you are seriously incapable of truly grasping the deeper levels of reality that will shape the future of this small part of the world.

benjamin

Thank you George. I take it by the fact that you haven't responded to my detailed arguments that you are incapable of producing counter arguments. The reason I said 2-2 was because for (2) you wrote "I agree" and for (3) you wrote "true". Just simple arithmetic. I am sorry that I have to correct your maths as well as your politics and history. The burden of actually knowing something about the situation. But I accept it with good grace.

phil

Benjamin there is probably a lot of your conclusions that I don,t agree with ,but please do not assume that ann represents Jewish thought -she buzzes around like an angry wasp,turning on one and all -your points need to be replied to and by someone with better knowledge of the complicated points that you raise -most Jews will listen carefully to anyone who puts their point of view and does not just hate, so say what you will without fear . No doubt others will argue their points but hopefully without invective and accusations .

benjamin

Nick. Thank you for your reply.

It is not just me that is worried about the "demographic threat" to the Jewish state. It is a part of daily discourse in Israel. It is the driving force behind, for example, the route of the separatian wall and the proposed land-swaps under any final status agreement.

I have made clear that I do not blame Israel for starting the current round of violence. I do not think that trying to find the start of what has been an ongoing cycle is particularly useful. But I nor do I believe that Hamas is wholly responsible for the current escalation in violence. I would be interested to hear why you think it is (if indeed you do).

I certainly do not believe that Hamas is wholly to blame for preventing a two-state solution. They certainly play a major part: but so too does Israeli actions on the ground in terms of settlement expansion and movement and access restrictions in particular. Again, I don't think that it is a particularly controversial view that these are factors in the delay of the 2-state solution: they were most recently identified as such by e.g. President Bush and Secretary Rice. They are also identified as such by the majority of the membership of the Israeli Labour Party (though not its leader Ehud Barak). I'd be interested to hear how and why you claim to have a better grasp of the deeper realities of this part of the world. I presume from your use of "this" that you are out in Israel or the OPTs?

Harvey

Right! That's it! I'm joining Amnesty International.

benjamin

Phil

Thank you. I do indeed think that people like Ann (and Melanie Phillips to be honest) do a disservice to those who have a real reason to think that this NGO report is biased. Having worked in human rights for a long time, I would agree with anyone who said (in more temperate language) that the HR community has favourite targets to attack: not just Israel but also the US and the UK. In most cases I would say their criticism is justified but their focus on these countries - in place of e.g. Burma or Zimbabwe - undermines what they are saying.

I apologise if I have come across as in any way anti-Jewish. I am not. I live in Jerusalem and I have close Jewish Israeli friends. Some of them I agree with politically. Some I do not. But they are articulate, humane and persuasive. I certainly don't think I have all the answers - the invective and partiality that Ann and Melanie display has provoked me into assuming an air of confidence that I do not feel about the terrible situation here. I think at the moment I do tend towards a belief that Israel best serves its own interests - and those of the Palestinians - by taking a political risk on some form of engagement with Hamas, including ending the blockade of Gaza. I suspect that the Israeli government are coming to a similar view. I would not be surprised if in the next days and weeks we see some informal end to hostilities, deal on Rafah and deal on Shalit (brokered by a friendly arab country). I do not believe that Hamas (or more precisely the political leadership of Hamas) is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. It is in its charter. It has refused to recognise Israel. But its support is mainly nationalist and Palestinian rather than Islamist and Caliphate. If real peace were on the table I think that they might accept it. The PLO moved a long way in twenty years. But I accept that I might be wrong. And I accept that while I can indulge in such intellectual equivocation, a nation such as Israel may well feel that it cannot afford to take such risks. I also accept that many Palestinians hate Hamas as much as, if not more, than the Israelis. If Abu Mazen could wipe out every Hamas member tomorrow (or rather get Israel to do it) and get away with it, he would jump at the chance. The stories of brutality by Fatah-oriented security forces against Hamas militants in the West Bank are shocking. And I accept that if Israel does come to an accommodation with Hamas on Gaza, it could fatally weaken the Palestinian Authority and with it the peace process.

There are no easy answers. If there were the many decent people on both sides would have solved this long ago. I suppose my ire was riled by Ann and Melanie's simplistic prescriptions. It is good to hear a calming voice like your own. Thank you again.

J. Isaacs

Harvey - You must be the Harvey who recently made a point of confusing the city of Hereford with the county of Herefordshire and used your confusion as a method of criticising Israel. Everything you say is about as believable as a rabbit in a black-and-white James Stewart movie.

Alcuin

A picture is worth a thousand words.

I have been an Oxfam supporter with a Standing Order in their favour for 30 years and was seriously considering a legacy. No more. I just stopped payment in response to this article by Oxfam's Director.

Find out who really ruined Palestine.

George

Benjamin, you take it wrongly. The reason I haven't answered is that you just aren't worth the time and effort, as all you are capable of doing is misinterpreting what people say and taking parts of sentences out of context (for example "True, but not relevant" becomes just "True"). So keep your incorrect maths, politics and history to yourself. I will carry on not only with the burden of knowing about the situation but also with the burden of living in it.

Ann

Benjamin, you do talk a lot of ignorant and infantile drivel, don't you? Does it make you feel all grown up? If so, you delude yourself, because you really do need a crash course in reading comprehension for 14-year old. I never said that 'Amnesty never criticises China', so this piece of waffle from your poison pen is completely wide of the mark (in other words, a pathetic smear). -- The fact (sorry, I know that in your looking-glass world facts are anathema) is that Oxfam claims mendaciously that it is an 'objective, non-political organisation'. But it is not, because its official pronouncements are biased, and always in the same direction. For example, it claims that this and that done by Israel is 'illegal'. Who appointed Oxfam to decide on the legality of Israel's actions? Is it an elected parliament? Is it an appointed board of legal enquiry? No, it is a self-appointed kangaroo court, originally an aid organisation but and more a soi-disant moral and legal judge on what Israel may or may not do. Utterly sick, utterly sickening. So Juliette, don't come and pretend that black is white.

phil

Benjamin thank you too it just shows that a kindly word does work wonders -and you have articulated your case so well -I am sad you dont like Melanie as she is a heroine to me and in the face of such nastiness from so many perhaps sometimes says things a little to strongly for some - you probably have shocked the lady ann by revealing your home and friends -she well deserves it-perhaps she might engage brain before mouth in the future .

Ann

Oh, Phil and Benjamin, do you have the slightest idea how absurd you are? First, who says I am Jewish? I may be or I may not. You have no idea either way, but you blithely and smugly assume you do. You see how biased and smug you two are? Furthermore, Phil, I don't live in Israel now, but I spent a quarter a century there, including during several wars. I have intimate knowledge of the country and its people and history and politics. Have you even been to the Middle East, Phil?

Ann

"I do not believe that Hamas (or more precisely the political leadership of Hamas) is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. It is in its charter. It has refused to recognise Israel. But its support is mainly nationalist and Palestinian rather than Islamist and Caliphate" --- a complete non sequitur (do look up this term, dear). It is perfectly possible to have "nationalist and Palestinian" support and be dedicated to the destruction of Israel (although I suppose it's difficult for you to follow the logic, and we shouldn't laugh at the afflicted). They say so, and they pursue a policy that says so. It is only ignorant Westerners of a certain type who know a little about the region but smugly think they understand everything about it, who say: "Ah well, they say so, and they have been doing everything they can for many years to prove that they mean it, but hey - they are only joking, eh, what?". Well, Israel can't afford to shape its policy according to the whims of smug people with no stake in the outcome.

alan stoddart

I see those lucky Israelis are leading what the BBC's Jim Naughtie called 'recognisably normal lives'.....
Four wounded as Qassam rocket hits Sderot home By Mijal Grinberg, Haaretz Correspondent and The Associated Press  Four people were lightly wounded Thursday evening when a Qassam rocket fired from the Gaza Strip struck a home in the western Negev town of Sderot. The family was home at the time of the attack, and the father, Genadi Polotkov, suffered light to moderate wounds. Three passersby were lightly hurt, and eight people were treated for shock. Flames engulfed the house following the strike, and firefighters rushed to the scene in an effort to put out the blaze. A second rocket fired in the same barrage struck a cooking gas tank next to an empty home, starting a fire, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said. A third Sderot house was hit by a Qassam rocket earlier in the day. There were no injuries in that attack, and Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip on Thursday fired a total of at least eight Qassam rockets and four mortar shells at the western Negev. One Qassam struck open fields near the city of Sderot and one of the shell hit an agricultural field in Kibbutz Ein Hashlosha, the site where an Ecuadorian volunteer was killed about two months ago. There were no injuries or damages reported in those incidents. Workers at Ein Hashlosha left their fields at the time of the attack. Also on Thursday, Hamas Radio reported that its militants opened fire on an Israel Air Force planes. No comment was available from the Israel Defense Forces. Meanwhile, the Defense Ministry on Wednesday finished erecting 120 fortified concrete bus shelters throughout Sderot, to serve as erstwhile shelters against rocket fire. Some of the shelters can accommodate people who use wheelchairs At least seven killed in terrorist attack at Jerusalem yeshiva By Jonathan Lis, Yair Ettinger and Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondents Tags: Israel, Palestinians At least seven people were killed and seven others were wounded Thursday evening when terrorists infiltrated the Merkaz Harav yeshiva in the Kiryat Moshe neighborhood in Jerusalem, a senior police official said. At least two terrorists infiltrated the yeshiva, possibly armed with explosive belts, and began firing in every direction. Some reports suggested the terrorists were shot and killed, while other reports from the scene said the incident was ongoing and shots were still being fired.  Advertisement A large number of police and emergency medical personnel had either arrived or were en route to the scene, with some 20-30 ambulances summoned. Police and Israel Defense Forces troops were searching the complex in order to determine whether one of the terrorists was still holed up inside the yeshiva, and were also going house to house in the immediate area in search of a terrorist who may have fled. Rescue personnel evacuated two people who were wounded, one of which was in serious condition and the other was in moderate condition. MDA declared the incident a "multiple casualty event." Police are having a difficult time keeping crowds of onlookers away from the scene, despite concerns there are still explosive belts at the scene that have yet to be neutralized. Jerusalem Mayor Uri Lupolianski told Channel 2, "It's very sad tonight in Jerusalem - many people were killed in the heart of Jerusalem.

J. Isaacs

The ghastly Jeremy Bowen is on BBC News 24 at the moment, crowing about how bad the Israelis will be feeling at the death of eight rabbinic students in a Jerusalem seminary at the hands of terrorist gunmen. As usual, no interviews with Israelis, just crass editorialising from him and another comfortable studio commentator.

osama

Gaza occupied? 30th jan 2007 The following is a near-verbatim transcript of today's noon briefing by Michèle Montas, Spokesperson for the Secretary-General, and the Spokesperson for the President of the General Assembly, Ashraf Kamal. Briefing by the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General /... ** Middle East Statement A statement attributable to the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General on the situation in the occupied Palestinian territories. The Secretary-General has noted today's announcement of an agreed ceasefire in Gaza, and commends Egypt for its continuing efforts to calm a volatile and worrying situation. He calls for all parties to abide by the terms of the ceasefire and to move quickly back to the process of national dialogue in the pursuit of national unity. /... **Questions and Answers /... Question: You read a statement about the situation in Gaza before and I know it's difficult to change terminology, but we have a new Secretary-General now, so let me try it again. A year and half after the last Israeli withdrew from Gaza, the UN system still refers to Gaza as an Occupied Palestinian Territory. The only people who are not Palestinian in Gaza currently are UN people. Do you mean that Gaza is occupied by the UN? Spokesperson: Definitely not. Question: So who is it occupied by? Spokesperson: Well… Correspondent: I think there are some Israeli soldiers on the border… Question: Not borders, who is Gaza occupied by? Spokesperson: Traditionally, this is the terminology we have used. Yes? Question: But the situation on the ground changed since Israel withdrew from Gaza. Spokesperson: I will look into this. Correspondent: Thank you.

alan stoddart

As the BBC's Jim Naughtie says 'Israelis lead recognisably normal lives'.

Four wounded as Qassam rocket hits Sderot home By Mijal Grinberg, Haaretz Correspondent and The Associated Press  Four people were lightly wounded Thursday evening when a Qassam rocket fired from the Gaza Strip struck a home in the western Negev town of Sderot. The family was home at the time of the attack, and the father, Genadi Polotkov, suffered light to moderate wounds. Three passersby were lightly hurt, and eight people were treated for shock. Flames engulfed the house following the strike, and firefighters rushed to the scene in an effort to put out the blaze.

At least seven killed in terrorist attack at Jerusalem yeshiva By Jonathan Lis, Yair Ettinger and Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondents Tags: Israel, Palestinians At least seven people were killed and seven others were wounded Thursday evening when terrorists infiltrated the Merkaz Harav yeshiva in the Kiryat Moshe neighborhood in Jerusalem, a senior police official said.

osama

Is Gaza occupied? DAILY(30th Jan 2007) PRESS BRIEFING BY THE OFFICES OF THE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE SECRETARY-GENERAL AND THE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY PRESIDENT

The following is a near-verbatim transcript of today's noon briefing by Michèle Montas, Spokesperson for the Secretary-General, and the Spokesperson for the President of the General Assembly, Ashraf Kamal.
Briefing by the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General /...
** Middle East Statement
A statement attributable to the Spokesperson for the Secretary-General on the situation in the occupied Palestinian territories. The Secretary-General has noted today's announcement of an agreed ceasefire in Gaza, and commends Egypt for its continuing efforts to calm a volatile and worrying situation. He calls for all parties to abide by the terms of the ceasefire and to move quickly back to the process of national dialogue in the pursuit of national unity. /...

**Questions and Answers
Question: You read a statement about the situation in Gaza before and I know it's difficult to change terminology, but we have a new Secretary-General now, so let me try it again. A year and half after the last Israeli withdrew from Gaza, the UN system still refers to Gaza as an Occupied Palestinian Territory. The only people who are not Palestinian in Gaza currently are UN people. Do you mean that Gaza is occupied by the UN?
Spokesperson: Definitely not.
Question: So who is it occupied by?
Spokesperson: Well…
Correspondent: I think there are some Israeli soldiers on the border…
Question: Not borders, who is Gaza occupied by?
Spokesperson: Traditionally, this is the terminology we have used. Yes?
Question: But the situation on the ground changed since Israel withdrew from Gaza.
Spokesperson: I will look into this.
Correspondent: Thank you.

Angela Mason

An excellent summary by Melanie, of the current unbelievable bigotry against Israel - I had to turn the radio off this morning because of the outrageous comments coming from the BBC - why don't they try some objective reporting for a change - it might give them some crrdibility.

David Singer

The international aid agencies in conjunction with the United Nations need to take the following steps to alleviate the humanitarian crisis in Gaza: 1. Each member of the United Nations should offer temporary shelter to Gazans wishing to leave Gaza and to indicate the number of people they are prepared to take. The 22 Arab States and 35 other Moslem member countries in the United Nations should be among those who first step forward to help their Arab Moslem brothers and sisters escape the horrors of Gaza. 2. Egypt should open its border with Gaza at a special “exit only” crossing point to permit Gazans to leave Gaza. 3. UNWRA and the relief agencies should set up a temporary transit facility to receive the departing Gazans and process and facilitate their emigration to the countries offering them temporary residence. 4. Any funds required to implement these arrangements should be levied on all UN members in proportion to the contributions they currently make to fund the operations of the UN. 5. If Hamas should seek in any way to prevent civilians leaving Gaza, the UN should send an armed force there to open up a safe passage to the Egyptian border to enable those civilians to leave. Stop bleating and do something positive to end the suffering or stand condemned as so often has happened in the past when civilian populations are left to the mercy of warring enemies.

TonyD

Sean Healy: If you can't see the difference between the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto and Hamas, then there's no point even starting a discussion with you. Extraordinary!!

Adam B.

I was in correspondence with Christian Aid several months ago, concerning the organization's unceasing hostility towards the Jewish State. I was told that "the occupation" had "caused poverty". When I got back to them, detailing with independently verified facts and figures (from the Spectator)how in fact the average salary in Gaza had, since Israel left Gaza, dropped to a tenth of that when Israel was actually occupying Gaza, there was no reply. During the war with Hizbollah in the summer of 2006, Save the Children and Oxfam produced publicity material which suggested that they helped ALL the victims of the war. When I made enquiries, it became evident that they only offered assistance to those affected on the Lebanese side of the border, and none on the Israeli side (Israeli childern don't bleed you see). A few years ago, Oxfam produced a poster calling for a boycott of the Jewish State, depicting an Israeli orange dripping blood, a version of the age old blood libel against the Jews. It is absurd to pretend that these organizations are not political. They have a very definite axe to grind, and it is wielded against the Jews with enthusiasm. It's shameful.

Adam B.

Benjamin, you are completely wrong. The rocket attacks started long BEFORE the Hamas coup, and BEFORE Israel closed its border. There is no Israeli blockade, unless Egypt and the Mediterranean count as Israel. It's worrying that people can sound so authoritative, and yet spout rubbish.

Terry

The NGOs aren't simply dyed-in-the-wool, vicious and bigotted Israel haters. They are dyed-in-the-wool, vicious and bigotted racist Jew haters. The UN conference to promote racism proved that.

Ian C

The aid agencies and charities on one side and the warring parties on the other have different interests in the whole matter that get immersed in very unclear and relativist thinking in the midst of the very real humanitarian problems that the situation inevitably throws up. The charities and agencies job is to do their best to relieve the humanitarian suffering as best they can with the resources they have. Their role is not therefore to publicise their own views, formed in stressful surroundings, about the rights and wrongs of what is happening. The UN agencies are particularly bad at this, as if they are a separate political entity in their own right, which they clearly are not. The charities are encouraged to do similarly by this inapproriate behaviour and as a result everyone gets noisily involved in the politics of situation, when they should do this quietly behind the scenes, if at all. The publicity they seek is not in the interests of resolving the dispute, that has now been raging for years partly extended by such behaviour because of the attitude hardening effects it has. At the end of the day the dispute will only be resolved by the two parties being able to live in peace beside each other. As human beings we all know what it will take and are appalled at the human costs being paid to get to there. At some point one side or the other must give up its position and compromise. The charities and agencies in the meantime should shut up and get on with the job in hand and stop pretending they can influence anything but the few lives they can touch. The necessary compromise has been too long deferred by such interference. One can be forgiven for getting the impression that the charities and agencies stir the pot for their own ends, in order to peretuate their existence, when the signs of their success will be when they are no longer needed.

Sean Healy

TonyD, For goodness sake, did you even read my comment? I explicitly said Gaza is NOT like Warsaw, except insofar as the inhabitants of both were able to smuggle in weapons - and the prisoners of Warsaw did so under much harsher conditions. I thought it worth pointing this out precisely because Melanie argued that the presence of weapons in Gaza meant that the inhabitants surely couldn't have trouble getting food if they wanted to. Now, I happen to agree with her on this point. However the argument becomes ineffective once you realise - as her opponents surely would - that the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto were starving AND managed to get weapons. Do you see the problem now? If people much worse off than the Gazans still armed themselves, how can the fact that Gazans are armed be marshalled to support the notion that they aren't being starved (which, I repeat, I don't believe to the case). It's just bad tactics. Just to be sure: Gaza is not like Warsaw, which is why people shouldn't make the arms smuggling argument to support the notion that Gazans are well-fed.

Lynne T

Alan Stoddart: It ain't any better on this side of the Atlantic, where the BBC's Canadian counterpart is airing Iris Mackler's reports from Jerusalem, which "contextualize" the attack on the Jerusalem yeshiva, as one being on a student body that includes lots of Jewish residents of the West Bank. Imagine, by contrast, the condemnations that would be sounded if an Israeli "militant" stormed into a religious school operated by Muslims with ties to Gaza/Hamas within Israel's borders (and I am sure there are some), and let loose with a hail of bullets.

Si, N

Shame on the lot of you for denigrating the work undertaken by these impartial organisations. The fact is that you would all be clamouring to cite these very organisations if the reports they produced were in any way favourable towards the ongoing occupation of Palestinian land and the attritional genocide of the Palestinian people. Do you have no sense of decency?

Bart Roozendaal

I canceled my membership of Amnesty International after their pathetic one-sided 'war crime' slur on Israel after that country's military defence action against Arab terror from Lebanon in 2006. I would urge any responsible person to do the same now. Enough is enough.

Andrew James

Benjamin, the claim that Hamas didn’t fire rockets until January 2008 is a blatant lie that doesn’t stand up under any microscope. According to Haaretz Hamas was firing rockets at Israeli civilians at precisely the time when the so-called “blockade” began in June 2007 - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/879161.html That's not an allegation. Hamas itself claimed responsibility in July 07 for firing Qassam rockets at Israel from the Gaza Strip. Fact is that in any event and contrary to the garbage these aid organizations and you would have us swallow, Hamas is the military occupier of Gaza yet hasn’t lifted a finger to prevent deliberate murderous attacks on civilians across the border since its putsch in July. The aids groups are simply its willing helpers and that's shameful!

Adam B.

Si, N, did you not read Melanie's article? You still think these organizations are impartial, despite the fact that they never offer assistance to a Jew, only to the Arabs? Was the blood libel poster produced by Oxfam "impartial"? The fact that you accuse Israel of genocide, but think these organizations are "impartial" says it all really. You aren't capable of impartial thought yourself, and it is people like you who support these Israel bashing NGO's.

Rob

Andrew James == Hamas is the military occupier of Gaza == Actually Hamas is the democratically elected government of Gaza overthrown in an Israeli-backed coup. But don't let the facts get in the way of your ranting.

Rob

Steve: not wishing to dignify your rubbish with any more of a response that necessary, but you get a Hasbara point for the first occurrence I've seen of the abbreviation "TK" for "indiscriminate slaughter of civilians living in the same country as someone we'd rather like to murder". By that logic, if Osama bin Laden claimed that he was trying to hit President Bush, the attacks on 9/11 would be a TK. breaking news, Steve: they weren't. And neither are any of the murders in Gaza.

Chana

So sad, but unfortunately so true!!!

C.S.

This is an answer to Benjamin: I think you don't have your facts right! 1) the rockets have been "flying" way before Israel deported its own citizens out of the Gaza strip. 2) no comment. 3)& 4) the "so-called" palestinians (no such people really exist) want to be separated from Israel, so why don't they just do that? Why don't they build their own infrastructure? Why don't they supply their "people" with employment? On one hand they kill the Israelis and make their life a living hell, on the other hand they expect the Israelis to provide them with employment, water, electricity, food and medical care? It's like biting off the hand that feeds you. And just for your information, all the facts in the article are 100% correct!

PHIL

more good news from the well informed rob -*hamas have been overthrown* thank you rob peace is now only round the corner.perhaps you can also tell us where osama is, and where mengele is buried -you really are a treasure -more please !!

Rob

Apologies Phil - I meant to say "overthrown in the West Bank". (Obviously not in Gaza, where they remain the elected government). Thanks for the correction.

PHIL

ah well rob -maybe you will now get the rest right -but thanks for the courtesy

Adam B.

Rob, Hamas took control of gaza in a coup, by throwing fatah supporters off the rooftops. Some democracy.

Linda Rivera

Response to Juliette Seibold: Why do you selectively ignore that Gaza has a border with EGYPT? Why do you not insist that Egypt and the 22 huge Arab countries possessing fabulous oil wealth should help their Gaza brothers? Not, tiny, global jihad-embattled VICTIM Israel. Economically depressed, poverty stricken, daily rocket barraged, war stricken, terrorized Sderot citizens and other needy Israelis would be overjoyed to receive the many truck loads of food and other assistance that Israel regularly gives to Gaza's hostile residents who celebrate in the streets by the THOUSANDS, dance, and pass out sweets when Jewish innocents are maimed and murdered by suicide bombers. You ruthlessly demand that Israel negotiate with her sworn enemies when polls consistently show that 75% of Palestinian Authority Muslims support suicide bombings of Jewish innocents.

Linda Rivera

To Benjamin - Taqiyya! Please don't mislead the public into believing that rockets only started to be fired at Israeli civilians in January 2008. A Sderot leader stated: "Over the past seven years, Sderot has been hit by close to 7,000 rockets, and the frequency has increased considerably of late. Thus far into 2008, it has been struck by more than 400." http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14102&Itemid=86 Before Gaza's Jewish residents were cruelly expelled and rendered jobless and homeless, their Jewish towns were hit by thousands of rockets.

Rob

Adam B: foolish and ignorant as ever, I see. Hamas is the elected government of both Gaza and the West Bank, however unpalatable that may be to you. Fatah siezed power in the West Bank in a coup. They tried the same stunt in Gaza, they got creamed. Tough. Yet another example of your imagining a history all your own and then pretending it actually happened.

Gerry

is the world ignoring the facts? All the tourmoil in the World was caused by the British. They ruled Mandates after WWI and split the Populations by RELIGIONS. When they were driven out all those countrys split and became enemies. Look at India/Pakistan look at Cyprus, Palestine, Iraq, Even Ireland ! If any country in the World would experience what tiny Israel is experiencing, they would have used a Death penalty for Murderers and hit back irrespective of who gets it. Israel feels in the limelight of the world, where 20% of the World Population (Moslems)vote against tiny Israel in the UN and call it "Democracy" Its time that Israel ignore the Biased Amnesty International and others and revenge murders !

tom

"lo, for it is well-known that easu hates jacob."

what else is new? but it is remarkable to find such truth in a british publication these days.