The intolerable provocation of the truth at the Guardian

logdon

It's the only racism in Britain which speaks it's name.

My list of no-longer-friends over this issue is growing.

They hide behind the canard not Jews, Israel and become incandescent when challenged but it's still there.

However get them on the subject of a religion which can cause chaos and death over a few pictures and the ranks close and the Student Grant 'waycist' epithets flow like hot lava.

What is it with these people?

Philip

It's testimony to the venom and uninformed ire that seems to fill so many on the left these days (though not all); that so many of the comments to Evans's piece have had to be deleted by the moderator.

Bereft of argument or argumentative ability; and certainly factually-challenged when it comes to Israel - they indulge in the vilest ad-hom and childishness - then, again like naughty children, run away from the debate.

www.undjhimmi.com

Matt Seaton, Cif Editor

We admire Melanie's work so much that we had to nominate this blogpost as one of our 'best of the web' on Cif (Cif, please, Mel; not CiF).

I hope she won't feel too compromised by being included in our 'institutionalised intellectual and moral depravity'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree

stanley Jerusalem

It is so sad to air this ancient catchhphrase but even before the Talmud was written,[pre 135], Jews were accustomed to hearing it.
" Esau hates Jacob."
The more things change, the more they remain the same, and we call ourselves civilised and enlightened.

Groovy Times

Yeah,right Mr Seaton, and just like Jim Davidson, some of your best friends are black, which gives you carte blanche to peddle bigoted and offensive views the rest of the time. How magnanimous of you, but did see the post from your site - as highlighted by cifwatch - denying and excusing the role that Polish anti-Semitism played in the destruction of 3million Jews? It's the most unadulterated piece of Jew hatred I have ever come across in the mainstream media. Thanks, but no thanks Mr Seaton, your gesture - and your site - stink of self-righteous, self-serving, sanctimonious double stsndards.

Nicole S

Matt Seaton, your comment makes no sense and has no substance. That figures.

Carl

I do hope that you will give equal billing to Michael Lerner's comment on today's Guardian, in which he refers to "Israel's predictable choir of ethical cretins around the world" and reminds us of that well used tactic here of trying to get people to look at other Human Rights offenders than Israel (two wrongs don't make a right for those with difficulty grasping the idea). The comment is entitled "A war crime whitewash".

Truthtriumphs

Carl.

So where is the answer to the question I posed to you a few threads back?
Come on, let's here it.
What have YOU ever done to make the world a better place?
You're the hero from zero, aren't you?

Andy Gill

The proud motto of Cif is "Comment is free, facts are sacred". Where Israel is concerned however, it appears that lies are sacred.

The constant stream of anti-Israel articles on Cif have Goebbels himself nodding in approval. Matt Seaton has provided a public platform that singles out Israel for demonization, which he affords to no other country in the world. Cif has become a rallying point for Israel-haters and anti-semites, and Seaton deserves to be exposed and publicly humiliated for that.

Augustus

What Britain badly needs is a second golden age of British caricature (the original ran from 1790 to 1830). I can well imagine the fun, and more importantly, the positive political and societal impact that this would have on certain contempory themes: Political correctness, Eurabia/the EU, human rights, climate change, the list is endless. But they will not need to draw a cartoon of Richard Goldstone. He has made a caricature of himself.

Olaf Rye

Oh my, the comments on the CiF Watch website were really disturbing. I have not seen bile like that in a very long time, especially the almost gratuitous and offhand accusation that Israel is a racist nation and that their campaign in Gaza was somehow racist. With venomous fools like that against Israel, there is no wonder that Israelis and Jews in Britain are worried.

Gareth

Who cares what the Guardian thinks ? no one I know and I know plenty. They have identified the enemy : anyone who disagrees with Wedgie Benn or Polly Toynbee's decrees.
The thing is they hate. As I always say to people that way inclined - it's a bit of a giveaway when you say nothing at all positive about Israel. Like the national socialists and soviet socialists before them, it's that simple. You are good and they are evil.
There can be no debate.

I am about to go surfing at G Land in Java (the worlds number 1 left hand wave, it is fearsome and takes no account of what you believe) and Guardian talk is all the rage in the mosques along the way. But like their friends in the "working class" UK, these people have nothing going for them and no voice, and blaming someone else is the easy way out.
They read few books outside the prescribed mob rousers, and it fills a hole they can't fill themselves.
So what is Polly's excuse? I suspect it is she has never been attractive to the opposite sex and that hurt her somehow. A good way to cover that up is to get serious about Other People's Problems. If you can claim the moral high ground then you make a lot of people suffer for passing you by.... for being so insensitive!
A giveaway is the lack of humour shown by these Uber-Angels of the left. Hate leaves little room for laughter, as they label everyone, bourgeoisie, toff, oppressor, etc....
Like Nelson Mandela said - it is not our weakness and failure which frightens us - it is our very potential and strength. To stand up for yourself and be loving is very difficult. And that is what Polly and her friends hate most about Israel - it is not any perceived lack of good - but it's very success she hates. An Oasis in a desert. The desert Polly lives in, with Yasser and Lenin. No music playing there (famously in Lenin's case) just the earnest desire to "better other peoples lives" and "dispense justice"
Better start with your own Polly and cut down on the wine which stains your teeth red - it's a bit of a giveaway.

Adam B.

Matt Seaton, what is the point of your rather smug but meaningless post?

Go back to your infantile and hate filled site.

Peter Burman

Thank you, Melanie. Where was Annie Lennox and pals during the Nato bombing of Bosnia -- was the US bombing of the Chinese Embassy an intentional war crime, as Goldstone says Israel did in Gaza? Annie Lennox, your silence on the bombings of Sderot were deafening.

JohnW

Philip, 5:14 - I've had exactly the same experience. We must recognise that ad hominem attacks by the left are inevitable - it's what they do. They have nothing else as they only deal in emotions and feelings - elements that pander to their natural constituency in the "victim" industry. Facts and reasoned arguments have no place in their thinking. This is all rooted in political correctness, aka cultural Marxism.

Frank P

As I always say, M. Better to be vilified than ignored. You've got 'em going again. Keep the aspidistra flying.

I saw Harry being interviewed by the ubiquitous Andrew Neil on one of his myriad BBC TV slots the other night. What a couple of cunning old sods they are! Evans excelled himself with this piece. Perhaps he'll start a trend!

Matt Seaton

Drumming up business? Times really must be hard at the Grunge. I often see it quoted, though,usually more in anger than sorrow. Must borrow a copy one day and see if it's as bad as it's reported to be.

The last good writer that worked for it was Melanie. Thank God she saw the light.

Guiteau

It's a bit overwrought innit? Still, you got paid to cut and paste someone else's work.

GeoffM

I've read a few of the Grauniad comments.

One has to conclude that all Left wing people must be quite insane. Simple facts and logic don't enter their tiny minds.

They are so immune to reason that they should not have the vote.

God alone knows what kind of dysfunctional genes or upbringing they must have to end up like that.

Surely, somewhere, someone has studied this mental condition.

gary ashton

alexi sayle was on an australian current affair program in sydney telling the live audience and viewers what an evil state israel is and how he does not support it as it was created by the west and acts in an intolerant way to it's neighbors. after his rant he stared at the ceiling for the rest of the show looking bored,
what an idiot he turned out to be.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Ms. Phillips: What IS the CiF?

J. Isaacs

Frank P - Matt Seaton is hardly drumming up business, since the Guardian, Observer and Independent are all going bust quicktime. The question is, which will be the first to fold? Seaton is looking for a new job, possibly at The Spectator, and fixing up his CV accordingly. Georgina Henry, by contrast, already understands that the Job Centre beckons.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Guiteau: Why do you use, for your Internet pen name, the name of the man who shot James A. Garfield?

stanley Jerusalem

Gareth, Polly Toynbee is the one who turned up on a TV news programme to criticise a BA employee for 'insensitively' wearing her small silver crucifix.
Also taking part were an Anglican priest, a Mullah and a Rabbi, none of whom could see what the problem was.
It's like Bernard Levin [God rest his soul], used to say about animal lovers. They don't love animals, they just hate people.

amie

It is all very well for Lerner to cry whataboutery- that mentioning greater atrocities is diversionary tactics by Israel supporters. But the fact that the Evans thread attracted several hundered comments whereas the thread on the same day on the aftermath of genocide in Darfur attracted a couple of dozen, does speak to a toxic obsessiveness with Israel which seems to correlate with a blind disregard of other issues. Its not that 2 wrongs don't make a right- the monomaniac focus on Israel is at the expense of concern for other severely troubled areas of the world.

Compare the fawning responses to the Goldstone's post yesterday, also running into the hundreds.

Muppet Pastor

It is fascinating when The Guardian presents the truth to its readers isn't it? Sometimes they do it with economics too.
The number of anti-Israeli articles is only matched by the number of articles saying Islam is a religion of peace. You'd have to be seriously deluded to believe that.

mostly harmless

Truthtriumphs
October 21st, 2009 9:31pm
What have YOU ever done to make the world a better place?
You're the hero from zero, aren't you?'

Why don't you start with what you have done TT and then we can all compare and maybe do a league table.

just Louise

For sheer nastiness, some those comments come close to the anti-semitic obscenities made on U Tube about any video clip on which Mark Regev is speaking.
A recent "Jerusalem Post" carried an open letter to Obama from the well-known columnist Isi Leibler. He observes, inter alia:
'Instead of outrightly repudiating the Goldstone report, the US administration has in fact given the report credibility by publicly urging Israel to hold "independent" investigations of alleged war crimes. And just in case the US vote against the UNHRC resolution could be interpreted as being too slanted towards Israel, US National Security Adviser, General James Jones, has now reiterated the demand that Israel end the blockade of Gaza, even prior to Gilad Shalit being released.

There have even been vague hints that instead of vetoing the resolution at the UN Security Council, the US may merely seek to amend and moderate it. Or just as shocking, the US could use its veto power as leverage to force more unilateral concessions from Israel."
And concludes so rightly:
"The Goldstone report is not merely a vehicle by which those who defend mass murder in Darfur seek to delegitimize the Jewish state and transform it into the world's foremost pariah. It is far more dangerous. It is the vehicle by which the UNHRC is unashamedly and cynically seeking to embolden and empower terrorists attacking Israel and its civilians by denying Israel's legitimate right to self-defense."
(Leibler's articles are always worth reading for their sheer mastery of the situation).

Yaffle

@Matt Seaton,

"Cif, please, Mel"

Isn't that what you clean the kitchen with?

Seriously Matt, aren't you just a teensy bit embarrassed by the amount of anti-Jewish vitriol that lingers around your site?

Richard

Gareth,
Poll was a babe.

Frank P

Richard

Everyone starts off as a babe; unfortunately for some, they eventually turn out to look like 'Poll' and most of the other 'babes' of Leftern ideology: ugly as sin and twice as nasty. The politics of envy is a sad condition. But whatever turns you on buddy. They should supply you on the National Health for ladies who are suffering from the same deprivation syndrome as 'Poll'. Failing that, you could offer it as a private service in the black economy. They tell me gigging is a lucrative line. Or are you just fantasising? If so you need to take some advice from David Sullivan; He might have a cure for you. Either that or ask Jacqui Smith's husband; he obviously married his ball-breaker for political purposes and needed a bit of help with the other conjugal entitlements. He can give you a few tips about pressing urges, perhaps.

Maurice MD

It is striking in the Cif comments that the I-Hate-Israel brigade is forced to resort to out and out lies.
Israel has its shortcomings and has made its mistakes, but added up altogether they are lights years away from justifying this kind of obsessive loathing.

Therefore, it is necessary to imvent lies, usually obvious lies, to fuel the hatred.
This means that the commentators do not hate Israel for any rational reason. They start out with the hatred, and then invent the lies to justify it.
One may wonder about the comments that even Cif would not print. They must have been even more vicious.

Any Colour but Brown

Sometime prior to the incursion into Gaza, I read a post about the HRW and their lies. A quick google turned into several hours of trawling through any number of websites.

The abject and transparent lies about Israel far out number the genuine accusations. There are sites which demonstrate how so many of Gaza's and Lebanon's "harrowing scenes of carnage" were staged - you see the same faces and damage that could never have been inflicted in the way that HRW and others claim.

Sadly, the vast majority of the whingers are people who have heard these lies, second-hand, and take them as gospel. The very thought of checking how true it may be never enters their heads.

I deplore war crimes, no matter who commits them. I am beginning to think that propagating these sort of lies is coming close to being a war-crime.

Joshua

"Cif, please, Mel; not CiF"

The small "f" is most appropriate.

Jon_Boy

Can you imagine the brutality and tactics that Pakistan are currently using in their little self created mess?

Will we ever hear reports and condemnation from anyone about it later?

Israel's treatment by the Arabs, the UN and the so called developed and civililised nations of this world should be a warning to everyone that all the mental ilnesses and hatred and corruption that led to the butchery in WW2 are all still there and just waiting to be unleashed again.

And the most frightening thing is that all those people and institutions who profess to be our guardians against just such a repeat of history are those who cheer lead and will help carry it out all over again.

Neil Craig

To Matt Seaton, Cif Editor here all you do is prove what racists you & your paper are. Your paper claims not to allow racist comments. In fact, as reactions there prove, it is only those opposed to racism, those who do not lie to defend (ex-)Nazis publicly committed to genocide as your paper does, who get censored by you.

You cannot honestly deny either that the Guardian does support such (ex-)Nazis or that you do censor such anti-racist comments.

Tom Durkin

'institutionalised intellectual and moral depravity of CiF'

I think the premise of comment is free, like any discussion board is far removed from Melanie's characterization. I have seen some repugnant comments on this blog re Islam (see Muppet Pastor @ 10.36), but that does not make me believe everyone here, or all 'rightists' are war mongering bigots. This would not be fair and I pride myself on accepting difference and avoiding categorisation where possible. On Cif I have read repudiations of outlandish or non-fact based claims, which should counter any bias towards ‘Guardianistas’ or 'all leftists' (or Marxists apparently?!? someone needs a lessons in basic political theory!!) as being inherently anti-Israel.
What I find truly disconcerting is the willingness to smear the ‘left’ and Cif as anti-semitic, which is actually quote a common accusation on this blog. I will spell out why, for my conscience, Cast Lead is not a black and white issue:

1. Israel had to defend itself, but…
2. Gaza is a blockaded area - where were citizens supposed to go?
3. Israel has an extremely effective and powerful military, vs. quite weak opposition
4. The number of deaths and damage to public institutions is not something I feel comfortable with.

I see no pre-judgment there, and no racism. I also fully expect Israel to investigate certain incidents otherwise in my mind its military is no longer accountable and therefore the country no longer democratic. I sympathize with an unwillingness to engage with the Goldstone process as it seems there is institutionalised bias but surely the simplest way to undermine it is to investigate internally and publish?
For what its worth I am not clear on where many people stand on internal investigations on this blog because I have not seen it discussed so I wont assume that anyone either a) does not think there is anything to investigate, or b) that there should be no investigation or punishment for individuals if they were found to break laws/morals in the operation.

logdon

Course they hate Melanie. Wonder why? Here are five reasons.

Popular Blogger Posts

* Most read
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1 Sinking fast - Melanie Phillips

2 Even perfidy is now gutless in Albion - Melanie Phillips

3 The intolerable provocation of the truth at the Guardian - Melanie Phillips

4 How 'human rights' have turned into inhuman wrongs - Melanie Phillips

5 The Tory response to the BNP - Melanie Phillips

Adam B.

Tom Durkin, the moderate terms in which you voice your concerns are not replicated at Cif. Much of the extremist and hateful language there is simply off the chart anti-semitism, disguised as anti-Zionism (and sometimes not so disguised) - for example, alleging that anyone defending Israel must be paid to do so (those Jews and their money you see). Cif is also utterly obsessed with Israel, to the detriment of other much more pressing human tragedies in the world (Congo, Darfur, Sri Lanka etc). One has to wonder why.

You say Israel must hold investigations of its own. How many investigations has Britain held into the conduct of her forces in Iraq and Afdghanistan (and how many UN reports have there been?) In both of these wars, there have been civilian losses far greater than during Cast Lead. Goose and gander come to mind.

As to Israel's army being pitted against relatively weak opposition, it's not that simple. If we were talking about combat on a battlefield, yes, you'd be right. However, irregular forces (especially when propared to use human shields, a tactic Hamas has repeatedly employed) often have the advantage in heavily populated urban warfare. And in such circumstances, a complete absence of cilvilian casualties is impossible to achieve. Unless of course your criticism is that Israel simply shouldn't defend herself, because to do so would result in civilian casualties.

logdon

Joshua
October 22nd, 2009 3:08pm

"Cif, please, Mel; not CiF"

You mean as in Pox, rather than PoX?

Linda Smith

What's happened to all those Tamils in camps we last heard of months ago. It's eerily quiet.

David

Tom Durkin
1. Israel had to defend itself.
Agreed
2. Gaza is a blockaded area - where were citizens supposed to go?
Gaza shares a border with Egypt.
3. Israel has an extremely effective and powerful military, vs. quite weak opposition
Yes. That is true. You would think that Hamas would recognise the fact too and focus on using the huge sums of aid that it has received (together with the land, farms and factories that it inherited in Gaza) on the economic and cultural development of Gaza and its population. Instead, their stated focus is on the complete destruction of Israel. That focus, and the daily prosecution of terrorism against Israel, will continue to harvest a lot of hardship for ordinary Gazans when Israel responds (See No.1 above)
4. The number of deaths and damage to public institutions is not something I feel comfortable with.
I agree…no one does. However, the comment is easy to make and far more difficult to act on. To prevent further death and damage, requires that Hamas recognises the state of Israel, ceases all terrorist activity and starts developing economic ties with Israel. At the moment however, Hamas prefers terrorism as the means of destroying Israel. They continue to fire many rockets into Israel from residential areas and to use hospitals and public institutions for the storage of their weaponry. And when, of course, Israel responds (See No.1 above) death and damage inevitably result, even when Israel warns Gazan residents of an impending response.
It’s a depressing cycle and its full context should be studied / understood more.

Marcus

Mel's complaint is about the comments posted by the public on Comment is Free (she concedes that the original Harold Evans article published by the Guardian was broadly pro-Israel).
So, following her argument, where lies her responsibility for this site, which in the last week has played host to an invasion of BNP supporters and outright racist posts?

Truthtriumphs

mostly harmless (but very thick)

You ask what I have ever done to make the world a better place.
Many things, but in connection with the Israel/Palestine issue, I have , for example, often had fund raising events in my home to raise money for Israeli charities which benefit BOTH Jews and Palestinians.
It may interest you that the most recent was for a school for disabled children, which, BY ISRAELI LAW, has to have its quota of Palestinian children.
(An apartheid state?)

The reason you are thick is because you missed the point of my comment.
I and others like me on this site, do not pour out hatred against "the other".
You do.
I defend Israel against the onslaught of lies and distortions by people like yourself, motivated by hatred and jealousy, who profess concern for the supposed underdog, but in fact hide behind their fig leaf of concern for human rights (selective),to demonise Israel/Jews, at no cost to yourself.
The trouble is that your activities are anything but harmless, for they collectively, with others of a like mind, end up costing the lives of the innocent.

stanley Jerusalem

Linda Smith
October 23rd, 2009 12:45am

"What's happened to all those Tamils in camps we last heard of months ago. It's eerily quiet."
It will continue to be, Linda.
No oil, no western need for their natural products, no Islamic angle. Most of all no Jewish - sorry, Israeli soldiers present.
Oh and we all know why it's so quiet, don't we Folks?

EDDIE

It is bad enough that the shrinking Guardian publishes this vitriol on its web site, but for the life of me I cannot understand why CIF watch then repeats this garbage on its own site. What on earth is thew point of this daily passings of motions by CIF watch.?

Dixon

"Matt Seaton, Cif Editor
October 21st, 2009 5:41pm

I hope she won't feel too compromised by being included in our 'institutionalised intellectual and moral depravity'."

I believe he must be from the Gaurdian: he has attempted to create a sentence without a noun!

Max Gross

Folks, you fail to mention the main glaring fact: Israel occupies Palestinian land, not the other way round! In other words, Hamas is the David fighting an Israeli Goliath.

stanley Jerusalem

To paraphrase a 19th Century comment on religious belief, in order to incorporate the truth of the situation in the Middle East, " For those who believe, there are no questions, and for those who don't, there are no answers."
It has to be mind-blowingly tedious to find oneself re-iterating to the Carls, Blades and others out there, that the territory to the west of the Jordan river was seized illegally by the Jordanian Army in 1948 and recaptured by the Israelis in 1967, since prior to 1948 Jordan had no claim whatever on this area. And were you to say that the Jordanians are entitled to it by virtue of the fortunes of war, then precisely the same reasoning would uphold Israel's claim to the same territory. In other words, you can't have it both ways. This may assist [or otherwise] all of those who persist in saying that the League of Nations' and the UN's map of the Levant during the British Mandate years no longer has any legal standing.

Adam B.

Max Gross, what simplistic nonsense.

1. It is not "Palestinian" land, and never was, ever, at any time - period.

2. The "occupation" as you call it comes as a result of repeated Arab attempts to commit genocide against Israel's Jewish inhabitants. The attempt to exterminate Israel in 1967 resulted in a defeat for those who would, as openly decared at the time, drive the Jews into the sea. Withdrawals from "occupied" land, the last being Gaza in 2005, have resulted in renewed violence against Israel, rather than the predicted reduction in tension. Do you think further withdrawals would lead to peace, and if so, on what evidence, when the opposite has proved true?

Linda Smith

Sorry to be pedantic Dixon, but, err, isn't "depravity" a noun?

Max Gross

Adam B., you spout your own brand of nonsense. Who are the indigenous people in what we today call Israel? That's right Adam: Palestinians (or, if you prefer, indigenous Arabs). They were there before any immigrant "Israelies". Who predominantly lived there in 1948? Or are going to claim that the existence of squabbling Hebrew tribes of 3 or 4 thousand years ago somehow provides the current rogue state with the impunity it enjoys?

Soovey

I am a little late to this discussion but I was amazed that Matt Seaton lacked the smarts to post his personalised and ad hominem rant in his "official" capacity.

It was unprofessional, not to mention a grave error of judgement, but, given Georgina Henry's risible attempt to excuse Lerner's "ethical cretins" remark, perhaps these people lost touch with "professional" aeons ago.

Decay in personal insight or in the capability to judge how he may be perceived is a sign of great stress, but that doesn't excuse the Editors joining in with the below-the-line lunacy so common on Comment is Free.

Truthtriumphs

Max Gross (to Adam B.)
You spout your own brand of nonsense.

The nonsense and ignorance is one way--- from your own mouth.

If you care to look at the history books, it has been well and extensively documented, by Mark Twain and others, that the land was barren and deserted in the 19th.century, with a small indigenous population of Jews, and nomadic Bedouin.
As to the Jews, there has been a continuous presence since biblical times.
Indeed, the only time that the old city of Jerusalem was Judenrein since biblical times, was when Trans Jordan illegally occupied and annexed it ,an act recognised by no-one, including not a single Arab state, and then ransacked the Jewish quarter, including destroying the 58 synagogues there.

The mass influx of Arabs fom Syria, Egypt and Arabia occurred after the first and second influx of persecutad Jews in the 19th. and beginning 20th.century, from Russia in particular, which provided economic opportunities for them to escape the poverty they had known in their own indigenous lands. Many of them still have the Egyptian and Syrian family names, which is the real giveaway.
Indeed, it was the Jews who drained and reclaimed the swampland in the North, in which some of your "indigenous" Arabs live.
Just because people are olive-skinned, does not mean that they are indigenous to the area----even you should grasp that.

Why don't you provide facts and figures, instead of your ignorant rant.

Augustus

Adam B - I fear that in Max Gross you have come up against one of those ignorant people who still, after more than six decades after Israel's founding, aspire to see its actual elimination in favour of an historic Palestinian state where Jews will be reduced to a minority. Only this will be able to expiate the 'original sin' of Israel's founding. A GROSS act, built on the ruins of 'Arab Palestine', achieved through the deliberate and agressive dispossession of its native population. Max Gross, and others, forget however, that in Palestine, it was the ordinary Arabs who were persecuted and murdered by their alleged betters for the crime of 'selling Palestine' to the Jews. While ever since, these alleged betters, enriched themselves with impunity. Yes, ignorance can sometimes be contemptible.

PhyllisStein

"Seriously Matt, aren't you just a teensy bit embarrassed by the amount of anti-Jewish vitriol that lingers around your site?.."

Evidently not because they are still at it.

And as for his comment here, I reckon that Seaton has been reading the contributions of the mouth-breathing Guardianistas for so long that he's become one of them and doesn't realise it.

Not worthy of you, Seaton and very, very infantile.

Adam B.

Max Gross, you need a history lesson. The Arabs are not "indigenous" (you're sounding a bit like the BNP) but came with the Arab conquests. The Arabs rejected the partition plan of 1948 (which would have given them a state of "Palestine", a state which had never previously existed) whilst the Jews accepted the plan. The Jews ARE indeed indigenous, and some had never left after the destruction of the Temple...oh never mind, look it up if you have any intellectual curiosity. You're one of those people who speak in slogans - saves you thinking.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Truthtriumphs, you say that Trans-Jordan's illegal occupation and annexation of Yehuda and Shomron was "recognised by no-one". Wrong ! The British fell over themselves in their haste to recognise their puppet state's illegal actions.

Truthtriumphs

Ben Tzion harishon.

You didn't read what I said carefully enough!
I was speaking about the annexation of Jerusalem itself.

Whilst the British government and Pakistan, alone in the world, recognised this illegal act, they specified that they did not recognise the annexation of Jerusalem as part of that.
Check it out!

phil

Max Gross It has been said many times but bears repeating -there has NEVER been a Palestinian nation -They came into existence with ARAFAT .The indigenous Arabs could have stayed in the new state of Israel and in fact many did .We do not have to go back thousands of years 1948 will do when the new state declared its independence as per the free vote of the UN .Perhaps you do not believe Poland or Pakistan and the various African states should exist either nor the reunited Germany to name a few .

Read again what Adam B said ,his words represent the truth .Your comments are in fact Gross .

Max Gross

PHIL. You repeat, I repeat: there never was an "Israel" (no, not even Eretz Israel!)and Jews were a minority in Palestine for generations before 1948. They are still a minority. Your "truth" is mere zionist propaganda. Also, you seem to be denying indigenous Arabs - the native majority - the very thing the Israel lobby keeps howling about for Israel: the right to exist! And history has demonstrated which group is trying to push which into the sea!

Adam B.

Max Gross, what revisionist nonsense! Jews are not a minority - please, use facts instead of fantasies. Israel has accepted (and did so in 1948) a state for the Arabs (in addition to the state which exists as Jordan - part of Palestine until 1922). It is the Palestinian Arabs who refuse to accept a Jewish state, regardless of borders. Additionally, the Arabs are not "indigenous". The "drive into the sea" phrase actually comes from the mouths of Arab broadcasters ("we'll drive the Jews into the sea!") in 1948 and again in 1967. That's why that specific phrase came into being. Please do some reading before spouting.

Yowie from Australia

Linda Smith
October 23rd, 2009 12:45am

What's happened to all those Tamils in camps we last heard of months ago. It's eerily quiet.

They seem to be heading here to Australia. We have had 32 boatloads of Sri Lankan asylum seekers so far this year. Who knows how many Tamil Terrorists are on board. The Idiot Left just want to 'let them all in.'

phil

-Max Gross--- "there are none so blind as those that cannot see "
.

You wish to ignore facts and offer only untruths ,that's your privilege on these threads but how about telling me when the Palestinians came into existence as a nation ,when they had a government,and then why the UN voted for a new state of Israel (on a free vote ) -Oh sorry I suppose you will tell me the UN were all Jewish .I forgot

.You are one of a list of posters who come here to indulge their fantasies ,your leader blades and his sergeant sin do it all the time ,some respond I just laugh because the only ones who believe you all are your camp followers .The vast majority of posters here are intelligent and well able to see pure hatred rather than reason so although you are of course free to post you must expect to be ridiculed too when you post rubbish .

Groovy Times

Gross, you want to argue about history and the use of facts and evidence, yet you can't even make a simple mathematical calculation because your grasp of reality has been hijacked by bigotry. I'll help you, but I expect you to do your homework and at least attempt an answer. Then you can get back to arguing that anything that does not fit your progressive, humanitarian, peace-loving world view is the fault of a Zionist conspiracy and anyone who disagrees with you is an agent of, or has been duped by Zionist propaganda.

Here goes: Number of Jewish Israelis minus (Arab Israelis plus Gazan population plus West Bank population) equals a Jewish or Arab majority?

By the way, this is just a simple maths problem, and does not address inconvenient truths, like a recent survey of Israeli Arabs, 70 per cent of whom said they would not want to live anywhere else but Israel.

Groovy Times

Gross, you want to argue about history and the use of facts and evidence, yet you can't even make a simple mathematical calculation because your grasp of reality has been hijacked by bigotry. I'll help you, but I expect you to do your homework and at least attempt an answer. Then you can get back to arguing that anything that does not fit your progressive, humanitarian, peace-loving world view is the fault of a Zionist conspiracy and anyone who disagrees with you is an agent of, or has been duped by Zionist propaganda.

Here goes: Number of Jewish Israelis minus (Arab Israelis plus Gazan population plus West Bank population) equals a Jewish or Arab majority?

By the way, this is just a simple maths problem, and does not address inconvenient truths, like a recent survey of Israeli Arabs, 70 per cent of whom said they would not want to live anywhere else but Israel.

Max Gross

Oh please, no semantics! Some folks here present the bizarre argument that because there was no “nation” called Palestine that Palestinians – i.e. native Arabs – do not exist nor, apparently, do they have any right to exist. Interesting, especially considering that there was no nation called “Israel” either and that Jews (as opposed to ‘Israelis”) were – and remain – a minority.

In 1947 the international community arbitrarily decided to establish a Jewish state in a part of the British mandatory territory: Palestine. Got that?

During the Nakba of 1948, more than half of the Palestinian population of 1, 380,00 at the time were forced from their homeland by the Israeli army.

Israel’s narrow religious interpretation of history dismisses centuries of Arab life and disregards “non-Jewish” rights, presenting an alarming similarity between the Jewish political messianic trend and the rise of German Nazism.

Why is it that Islamic fanaticism is vilified in the West but Jewish fanaticism is ignored?

Fact: Israel can't absorb over 3 million Palestinians and retain its “god-given” exclusivist character, and it can't continue to hold over 3 million Palestinians as stateless hostages without becoming even more fascistic and, dare I suggest, “un-Jewish”.

It never ceases to amaze me how sections of the Jewish community and the Israel lobby in the U.S. and other Western countries, promote ideas of religious freedom and ethnic diversity in their own countries but adamantly reject these same values for Israel. A democratic bastion in the Middle East? Who are you kidding!

If anyone feels like continuing this circular argument, please join me at www.xenoxnews.com

phil

Max Gross from a quiet beginning you have descended into the world of the truly bizarre -your statements are the words of a deranged mind so I will sign off from you as I have no further wish to discuss this subject with a man who can compare Jews with nazis -as they say in showbusiness your words are not worth the paper they are written on .:just another crazy who comes here to indulge their fantasies .

phil

just to follow up I suggest anyone interested in what gross ahs to say .take his advive and google xenoxnews.com type his name in search and all will be revealed as to what sort of person he is -you will not want a second helping

Adam B.

Oh dear Max Gross, we're not talking semantics, we're talking facts. The ONLY time the region has been independent was as Jewish state.

Please explain (with figures and sources) your bizarre claim that Jews are in the minority. And incidentally, Jewish refugees from Arab lands outnumber Arab refugees.

Augustus

Max Gross's history is definitely skewed. Obviously, on purpose, to subscribe to an agenda all of his own making.
In the days before partition the
Palestinian Arabs never did view themselves as having a seperate identity. When the 1st
Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted: "We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it
at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious,
linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds."

So for centuries part of the province of Syria. And the Arab representative to the UN General Assembly in May 1947 said so, and that "politically,
the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a seperate political entity."

David Blackburn

Groovy Times,

I've been through the system and I'm afraid we have not received your response to Max Gross. I fear it may have been lost in the ether.

phil

David Blackburn too much beer methinks -it is in fact gross who cannot find the answers to my questions.nor groovy ,s ,and in any case it is not the real max gross it is an impostor -he has flown as they usually do when confronted with truth .
Just nipping in for a cheap jibe were you ? we do not mind you know but please get your facts right first -ok ?
Groovy -well done !

Max Gross

Phil, I responded a couple of times that have not appeared as posts. Pretty much sums up the "debate" here. See you at xenoxnews.com if you have the stomach for honest debate rather than simply regurgitating Israeli government propaganda. Cheers, comrade!

Adam B.

Nice way of avoiding the question, Max Gross.

Are you a Communist? If so, how disgusting.

Groovy Times

David Blackburn, thanks for searching for the comments, and Phil, thanks for the encouragement. I'm going to try once more, even if the passage of time has left my opinion somewhat redundant.

Gross, it comes as no surprise that you never cease to be amazed by the audaciousness of someone having a different opinion from your own.

Very few people on this site argue that the Palestinians have no right to define themselves as they see fit, that they have no right to self-determination, and most would agree with your one lonely fact that they cannot be indefinitely subjugated under Israeli control. This is why Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, offered 98 per cent of the West Bank - including East Jerusalem to the Palestinians less than a decade ago. Both of these were met with violence and rejectionism by Palestinians.

Your failure to acknowledge these facts shows you are not qualified to analyse the conflict because you are incapable of placing it within its proper context.

Your accusation that Israel represses religious and ethnic identity and worship is a fantasy plucked out of your own sanctimonious head as a tool to promote an anti-Israel agenda.

Rather than illustrating Israel's supposed racist, fascist, fanatical tendencies, you expose your own, borne out of an ignorance of history and the real politik of the Middle East, and fuelled by bigotry towards Jewish collective identity.

Max Gross

OK. I'm not proud: I'll take the bait. Here, read this:

Jewish settler arrested over terrorism
JERUSALEM
November 3, 2009, The Melbourne Age

Israeli police have arrested a US immigrant, a West Bank settler, and charged him over killings and terrorist attacks over the past 12 years, including the murders of two Palestinians, the bombing of a leftist Israeli professor's home and the maiming of a boy, 15, who belongs to a community of Jews who believe in Jesus.

The suspect, Jack Teitel, 37, a father of four and a computer technician and website designer, was born in Florida. He emigrated to Israel in 2000. The murders with which he has been charged took place in 1997. Teitel is also charged with attacks on police.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/jewish-settler-arrested-over-terrorism-20091102-htdk.html

Your turn, sheeple.

Groovy Times

Gross, your last posting merely reaffirms your intellectual impotency. You seem incapable of participating in real debate, choosing instead to substitute evidence, reason and counter-argument with cheap sloganeering and name-calling.

Highlighting the arrest of the Jewish terrorist in Israel teaches us nothing we did not already know. It serves only to expose – yet again – your innate prejudices and illustrates to what extent your moral compass has been degraded by bigotry.

I shall explain why: A bigot who scapegoats a racial or religious group will always seek to find an example that justifies their animus towards the wider collective. A racist in Australia, for example, would post newspaper cuttings of the arrest of an Aborigine on charges of theft, drunkenness, violence or murder to ‘prove’ the inferior and dangerous nature of Aborigines per se to Australian society as a whole.

Your example is motivated by the same visceral prejudice and hatred.

Max Gross

Groove-thang, I'm not anti-Jewish, I'm anti-occupation. You can't even tell the difference between oppressor and oppressed!