The humanitarian crisis in Gaza

david elder

Mel - Moses was right. It is a land of milk and honey!

Adam Lion Nordheim

Melanie, I don't see why Israel has any trade or border openings with Gaza. Gaza should be completely sealed off from Israel until Gilad Shalit is returned alive. It's not like Israel catches any breaks for its current humanitarian efforts.

dominic lennon

Well said Melanie

Noa Zrk

"What else comes through those tunnels?...We can all guess".
Israel is and remains the front line against the encroachment of the Islamic East against the Judeo-Christian West. If like Acre, it falls, then the main thrust of this war of conflicting ideologies moves to mainland Europe.

skydog

''At Nijma market, refrigerators, flat-screen televisions, microwaves, air-conditioners, generators and ovens filled the tents, all at inflated prices''

Surely not? Isn't the evil of capitalism distasteful to the followers of Islam?

Terry, Eilat - Israel

Oh, please, Melanie, what do FACTS have to do with anything?
Israel-bashing has nothing to do with facts, it has far deeper motivations, usually quite sinister & not in any way connected to reality, everything is a pretext.
Underlying the whole anti-Israel propaganda campaign is the fact that Israel exists, everything is aimed at delegitimizing the very existence of a Jewish state.
None of the specifics are in themselves of much importance, actual facts don't matter, what Israel does or does not do means nothing in this propaganda war.
If I may use a new verb, Israel is being ''Goldstoned'' .....

JohnW

Mel,

We shouldn't really expect anything else - poverty is all relative these days.

For example, we know that the victimisation industry run by the left has successfully managed to redefine poverty to include designer clothing and anything up to a 42" plasma TV, so why would their friends in Gaza be any fdifferent?

Mailman

Oh, I didnt realise Gaza had a border with Egypt. This is never mentioned on the BBC!

Pete Tiarks

This is silly. So you seal off the borders to Gaza and a small criminal class gets extremely rich from smuggling and related activities.

That does not mean that everything's tickety-boo.

It's like saying that everything in Zimbabwe must be ok, because Robert Mugabe's got a whole big fleet of cars.

mostly harmless

Do you begrudge the fact that under a brutal siege these Gazans are still getting on with their lives? I applaud their courage and inventiveness.

solemnman

I recall the time when Gazans crashed through the Egyptian border barrier and flooded into Egypt- bringing back with them the kind of stuff-that is now flooding through the tunnels -incuding ;EGYPTIAN BRIDES!!.One bride, interviewed by a journalist ,was asked -why she would want to live in,of all places, Gaza? She repied "BECAUSE THINGS ARE MUCH BETTER HERE THAN IN EGYPT".

mostly harmless

Mailman
October 23rd, 2009 9:45am
'Oh, I didnt realise Gaza had a border with Egypt. This is never mentioned on the BBC!'

Just look at a map, it's fairly obvious. Do you expect the BBC to tell you the world is round?

stanley Jerusalem

Propaganda, that's what's coming through the tunnels. After all, Egypt has blockaded their side of the border too. What? Didn't you know Egypt had blockaded her side? Now who's fault is that, the media's?
I wonder why.

Maurice. MD

To "Mostly Harmless" -- the point of this report, and others that back it up, is that the inhabitants of Gaza are NOT under "a brutal siege".

Necessities and humanitarian needs are brought in by way of Israel. Luxury goods are smuggled in by way of Egypt.

So what is your evidence of "a brutal siege"???

Truthtriumphs

mostly harmless,(and very dishonest).

Gaza under a brutal seige?
Don't think so.
You can't get away with that lie, for the huge numbers of humanitarian consignments are detailed and documented, that are going in from Israel, detailed and verified by international agencies.
Sorry if you don't like it that munitions intended to kill Israelis are not allowed across.

Last time I looked, Gaza had a border with Egypt.
Phone them up and ask them about the blockade from their side.

The answer is simple, if the Gazans want to continue with their lives, the Israelis would be only too delighted. Trouble is they are more interested in killing Jews, who are therefore forced to protect themselves, than they are in creating a decent life for themselves.

Carl

That is quite encouraging. Imagine how much better they would do if Israel was not subjecting them to a brutal seige.

Richard Lawson

Hey, this is brilliant. Why don't we close down our sea and airports and transport all our exports and imports by foot through the Channel Tunnell?

Richard Lawson

Oops, that should have been Tunnel. Sorry.

mr melrose

The guy in the photo is obviously overweight and has two - count 'em- fish which he is flaunting at the camera. One fish is quite enough for anyone.

I suggest Israel 'puts them on a diet'!...Oh, hang on.....They have already.

Derek BLADES

Tunnels are fine for importing consumer goods of the kind mentioned in Ms Phillip's blog. The real problem remains the cynical refusal of Israel to allow imports of the heavy building materials and equipment needed to repair the damage deliberately inflicted by the IDF on dwellings and civilian infrastructure.

This looks very like collective punishment for the Gazans' impertinence in having democratically elected a government the Israelis do not like.

Derek BLADES

Noa Zrk, 23 October, made the astonishing suggestion that "Israel is and remains the front line against the encroachment of the Islamic East against the Judeo-Christian West."

The truth is surely the exact opposite. Israel's actions in the Middle East are at the heart of Muslim rage against the "Judeo-Chistian West". Achieve a fair settlement of the Israel-Palestine problem and we could all sleep more happily in our beds.

Alex Bensky

Yes, Mailman, somehow when we see and read reports of the crushing Israeli blockade it isn't seen as pertinent that Gaza has a border with Egypt over which Israel has no control. But this shouldn't be surprising to anyone who actually knows what's going on in the area. Construction equipment as someone mentions above as well as pretty much everything else could go through that border without Israeli permission.

But that would presuppose that the Egyptians and other Arabs actually have any interest in the development of the Palestinian areas and the well-being of the Palestinians. Since 1949 they have kept the Palestinians where they are because it serves broader Arab political purposes.

As to Mr. Blades's assertion that the source of Arab rage against the west is Israel and if the problem were settled--the Arab definition of "settled" is "no Israel," of course--the Arab Muslim world would turn in friendship and amity to the western world. There's no reason to think that and if you read what the Arabs actually say, that assumption will be found to be groundless. Israel and the Palestinians are merely a very convenient stick with which to beat the west and distract the Arab masses.

John

Oh, and you are quite right, of course, that Hamas are getting rockets through the tunnel that they are aiming at innocent Israeli civilians. Problem is that with the main Israel-Gaza crossings closed, no-one (including the Egyptians) feels they can close down the tunnel trade because it's become a humanitarian lifeline. Open the crossings and economics would mean that the ONLY goods (perhaps with the exception of benzene which is cheaper in Egypt than Israel) coming through the tunnels would be weaponry and then we'd all cheer when the tunnels were closed down.

As I say, I'm really not sure how encouraging an unregulated black market smuggling economy used by Hamas to generate revenue and import arms is good for Israeli security. But I'm sure your next perspicacious blog will spell it out for us all. Or not.

C. Gee

Derek BLADES:

You say:
"This looks very like collective punishment for the Gazans' impertinence in having democratically elected a government the Israelis do not like."

To be fair, their democratically elected government does not like the Isrealis.

Little Plum

Final question: It's not Polish plumbers is it?

Augustus

Derek BLADES - Democratically elected, you say. But the furthest removed from a democratic bunch of leaders which it is conceivable to be. After the Israelis moved out of Gaza, did Hamas seize the chance to demonstrate that a peaceful two-state policy might work? Of course they didn't. It was obvious that Gaza's only hope for any form of lasting prosperity depended on co-operating with Israel on trade.
No! Hamas wasn't even vaguely interested in improving the lives of 1.5 million Gazan residents coming under its control. Instead, it raised an army of 16,000 and built 50 kilometres of tunnels, and began smuggling in rockets from Iran. Then in 2007 it frightened off Fatah's supporters in a Pally v Pally violent struggle. Targeting Israel's population centres with rockets became Gaza's only foreign policy. And now, Mahmoud Abbas has called new elections for the West Bank and Gaza in January, and surprise, surprise, Hamas has rejected that call. So much for democracy. So much for claims for an independent state comprising both those territories. So much for moderation in Islamic fundamentalism. So much for Palestinian national interests.
Hamas can now be shown not to have been democratically elected at all, it simply hijacked the cause Mr BLADES.

Fran

Derek Blades

Can it really not have occurred to you that Israeli reluctance to permit heavy building materials to enter Gaza can be connected with Hamas' propensity to hijack supplies and use them, not to improve the lives of their hapless citizens, but to pursue their stated goal of murdering Israelis and destroying the Jewish State?

Derek BLADES

Fran

No. I must admit it has not occurred to that bags of cement, windows, doors, and bricks might be used for "murdering Israelis and destroying the Jewish State?"

Clearly I lack your imagination so please feel free to tell me how it works.

Adam B.

Derek Blades, oh please...

Hamas a democratic government?

Was it democratic when Hamas threw dozens of Fatah members off the rooftops to their deaths when they staged their coup?

Was it democratic when, during Cast Lead, Hamas shot members of Fatah in their hopsital beds at Shifa hospital?

Was it democratic when Hamas' leadership hid under Shifa hospital, using its patients as human shields?

Is there a free press, an independent judiciary in Gaza? Is there any social tolerance, equal rights for women or gays?

What a strange idea of democracy you have, but then again, as your former employer was the brutal dictatorship of Communist China, I guess you really aren't that bothered about democracy anyway. You really don't have any moral highground here...

Ronnie

Economic sanctions and a blockade creates a vibrant black market.

Gosh! My jaw has dropped.

What would we ever do without Mel?

Pessimist

@ Derek BLADES,
You said:
“This looks very like collective punishment for the Gazans' impertinence in having democratically elected a government the Israelis do not like.”

How can you have a democratically elected government and expect those who voted for it to be exempt from the consequences? It always amuses me when people say, on the one hand, that Gazans are innocent victims of collective punishment whose suffering is not their fault, and on the other, insist that Hamas was democratically elected ? So who voted for them? It’s one way or the other, I don’t think you can have both.

Noa Zrk

Derek BLADES October 23rd, 2009 9:59pm
Alex Bensky has already pointed out the fallacy of your argument. It is thanks in good part to Isreal, a continuously besieged and non territorially
aspirational democracy surrounded by Islamic-terrorist states and dictatorships, that you are able to sleep as soundly in your bed as you do at present.
The truth is surely the exact opposite. Israel's actions in the Middle East are at the heart of Muslim rage against the "Judeo-Chistian West". Achieve a fair settlement of the Israel-Palestine problem and we could all sleep more happily in our beds.

wonderer

Derek Blades, it's well known that Palestinian terrorists in Gaza have used construction materials to build launch pads for their rockets.

A major reason for Israel keeping the border with Gaza under tight control is to prevent a repetition of the Ashdod port bomb attack of 2004, which was carried out by terrorists crossing into Israel, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashdod_Port_attack . If this had succeeded as intended hundreds would have died.

Now that Hamas run Gaza the risk would be even greater.

jose garcia

CARL RANTED
"That is quite encouraging. Imagine how much better they would do if Israel was not subjecting them to a brutal seige."

well if they dont like so much it they can always resort to peace, (road map ,disarming terrorist hamas, acknowledging israel right to exist, ETC)

DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST AND HAMAS DISARMENT?

Because I never once heard you say it? so what side are you on?
it looks to me you are blind on purpose.

Fran

Hi Derek

You wrote "No. I must admit it has not occurred to that bags of cement, windows, doors, and bricks might be used for "murdering Israelis and destroying the Jewish State?"

Clearly I lack your imagination so please feel free to tell me how it works."

Always happy to oblige! Hamas hijack building materials for the tunnels that Melanie describes in this article.

As she alluded only briefly to 'what else' might be coming into Gaza through the tunnels, I'll spell it out. Weapons, explosives and Iranian-trained personnel. In addition, Hamas would dearly love to use the tunnels for a little export of their own into Israel - terrorism and kidnap, such as that of Gilad Shalit whose abductors entered Israel through just such a tunnel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit

Si, N

Noa Zrk is having a laugh: Israel is ‘non territorially aspirational’ is it?

Then why does Israel continue to ethnically cleanse Palestinians (Arabs, call them what you will) from territories in which they have lived for generations? Why does Israel continue to defy International law and global pleading (even that of its lame paymaster) by refusing to cease expansion of its colonial outpos…er, settlements in the West Bank?

Si, N

Noa Zrk is having a laugh: Israel is ‘non territorially aspirational’ is it?

Then why does Israel continue to ethnically cleanse Palestinians (Arabs, call them what you will) from territories in which they have lived for generations? Why does Israel continue to defy International law and global pleading (even that of its lame paymaster) by refusing to cease expansion of its colonial outpos…er, illegal settlements in the West Bank?

Si, N

Pessimist asks, ‘[h]ow can you have a democratically elected government and expect those who voted for it to be exempt from the consequences?’

Does it not then follow in his/her/its reckoning that the residents of Sderot are legitimate targets for Palestinian attacks?

I wonder if it ‘always amuses [him/her/it] when people say’ that Israel has the right to self defence.

Si, N

Khodray’s article merely tells us that which we already know: it is necessary for Gazans to bring goods into Gaza through tunnels because Israel (yes, and a whipped-in corrupted Egypt) has for the last 3 years imposed a murderous blockade on the brutalised Palestinian territory.

Melanie Phillips adds, ‘[q]uick -- call for Amnesty or Christian Aid to investigate these shocking accounts of destitution, malnutrition and extreme poverty in Gaza’. Disgraceful.

Currently in Gaza:

all 16,400 children (under 5 years of age) treated at the Ard al-Insan Child Nutrition Centre (25-30 new referrals daily) were found to be malnourished.

The Centre’s target group is children suffering the effects of second and third degree malnutrition - half the children are mildly malnourished - 32 percent suffer from second-degree malnutrition - the remaining 16 percent are third-degree malnourished.

10.7% of children in Gaza aged under five suffer stunted growth due to chronic malnutrition.

65% of children aged 9-12 months, and 35% of pregnant women are anaemic.

Chronic power cuts in Gaza have left 50 percent of Gaza’s residents (approx 750,000 people) desperately short of fresh drinking water.

The talk of ‘Gaza’s nouveau riche’…whether to laugh or cry…

Pessimist

Si, N
October 25th, 2009 5:46pm
(No need to struggle with all the pronouns, address me direct.)

“Does it not then follow in his/her/its reckoning that the residents of Sderot are legitimate targets for Palestinian attacks?”

You ask. No it does not follow at all. No Israeli civilians are legitimate targets until the IDF hides amongst them and launches rockets indiscriminately at Gazans merely because of a fanatical ideology they’re brainwashed into following.
In other words never.

You might not have read

“This looks very like collective punishment for the Gazans' impertinence in having democratically elected a government the Israelis do not like”

though I did quote it in my comment. Never mind, violent knee jerks do impair comprehension.

Mr. BLADES, who you’re speaking on behalf of, mentions collective punishment, implying that Gazans don’t deserve to suffer because of something they weren’t responsible for. They certainly don’t deserve to suffer the consequences of what Hamas brought upon them. But you can’t then use the democratically elected card as well. It’s not logical You can’t have your cake and eat it. They made their bed now they must lie on it, and other tedious homilies, meaning if they voted ‘democratically’, they’re responsible.

Have you ever heard anyone apply the ‘democratically elected government’ maneuver to the residents of Sderot - or, for that matter, any other citizens of Israel?
No, because it’s exclusively trotted out whenever their apologists are reminded that Hamas are actually Islamist terrorists. “Oh,” you go, moronically “What difference does that make? They were democratically elected.”
If Hamas should ever renounce violence, recognise Israel, and tear up their charter, then all their lives would improve. Simples.

And, why should it amuse me when people say that Israel has the right to self defence? Perhaps you can explain the joke.

Truthtriumphs

Si,N.

Back to your evil lies blaming Israel as usual, I see.

If there is malnutrition in Gaza's children, (and where are your verifiable sources?), blame Hamas, which steals the humanitarian aid intended for "the starving Palestinians",(well documented) and buys armaments to kill innocent Jews instead, in accordance with their oft repeated objectives.

What have YOU ever done Si,N to help the "starving Palestinians"?

Do tell us--- we're waiting!

John Edwards

Particularly desperate stuff from Melanie.

Good comments from Si N and Derek Blades though.

Black markets always thrive under these siege conditions.

Adam B.

Sin this ridiculous claim about "ethnic cleansing" is without any substance. If people are being "ethnically cleansed" it follows that they are being "cleansed" TO somewhere. Where? Where is this mass movement of people you are talking about? Furthermore, the Arab population inside Israel, Judea and Samaria and Gaza has increased year on year. A very strange looking "ethnic cleansing." Meanwhile, the Jewish populations of several Arab and Islamic nations have been eradicated. Isn't that real ethnic cleansing Sin? But we won't hear a peep out of you about that one, because it doesn't fit your world view.

Adam B.

John Edwards, why not contribute to the debate instead of simply cheerleading your knee-jerk Israel hating friends?

Tess

Black markets in seige conditions! lol

For basic food stuff, maybe. But flat screen televisions and $10,000 motorbikes?

Yeah, right.

sebastian

I'd be very surprised if Israel didn't know what was happening and was permitting it. Why? Because this sort of private enterprise will help to break the monopoly Hamas has on the Gazan economy. And where people have independent or semi-autonomous, Hamas free incomes, they'll protect them. Profit leads to "politics". Who wants to pay a Hamas "tax" for ever? Which self sufficient crooks want endless control by other crooks?
According to this report, much money is involved. It's worth looking after. Will Israel be offering clandestine banking to these profitable traders so they may export the funds to a hidden safe haven away from Hamas' grasp?
I think they should.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Tess maybe the motorcycles are Ducati or Kawasaki, not vespas

Tess

A propos of the jihadists winning the propaganda war, American Thinker has this to offer:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/losing_israel_1.html

I agree with that, but then who is allowed to talk about Islam these days?

The mainstream media can barely bring themselves to touch it, let alone admit that it drives political policy.

Penny

Gaza is most certainly in the clutches of a brutal regime - Hamas.

In pretty much the same way that the Berlin wall was a one-way route (i.e. out of E. Germany and into the West) I don't think I've ever heard of desperate Israeli Arab citizens trying to smuggle themselves through the tunnels and/or over the wall in order to get into Gaza/West Bank and out of the 'clutches' of Israel.

Also worth mentioning is the rescue operation Israel mounted in 2007, saving Palestinian's from Hamas.

Khaled Abu Toameh writes:

"....In the summer of 2007, when Hamas launched its “military coup” in the Gaza Strip, it was Israel that saved the lives of hundreds, if not thousands, of Fatah members and their families.

“These Fatah operatives first tried to run away toward Egypt, but most were blocked by Egyptian security forces, which sent them to knock on Israel’s door for help. Israel was the only country that sent ships, ambulances and helicopters to save Muslims from being slaughtered by their Muslim brethren, to save Fatah from being destroyed by Hamas.

“Today, it is Israel’s presence in the West Bank that is preventing the collapse of Fatah and a Hamas takeover. Ironically, if Israel carries out what Fatah is demanding in public - a withdrawal from the West Bank - Fatah will be the first to vanish."

http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/10/hamas-and-fatah-what-are-they-really-fighting-about.php

Derek BLADES

Pessimist addressed a comment to me on 25 October. I have read it forwards, backwards and sideways but I cannot make head nor tale of it.

He/she seems to think I am making some comparison between the inhabitants of Gaza and Sderot. I would certainly not do that. The people living in Sderot do so from choice and are free to move out of range of Hamas rockets if they find them too tiresome. The Gazans on the other hand have nowhere else to go.

Adam B.

Classic one from Blades - the rockets which maim and kill and force thousands of people to spend days in shelters may be "tiresome." The working class of Sderot can simply up sticks and move away. Well that's OK then.

I think your default anti-Israel hatred is rather "tiresome".

phil

Pessimist,the fact that blades cannot understand the plain language you have written to him says a lot for his lack of comprehension of many things that happen in the ME . He never seems to understand anything when it does not suit him -your message is sound and sensible.

workie ticket

Blades, your reference to Israeli civilians thinking being rocketted as being merely 'tiresome' is foul.

People in Sderot can move? Well some probably have but why should they? Have they rocketted Gaza? NO.

Have the Gazans attacked Sderot? Yes.

Have the Gazans nowhere to go? They dont need anywhere - they just need to stop the rockets and suicide bombings.

Augustus

Derek BLADES - Is that because there isn't anyone in Sderot with any 'get up and go'?

Joe 90

It's quite pointless trying to argues rationally with Derek 'BLADES' and his ilk who pop up with monotonous regularity to explain to the rest of us thickies how raining rockets down on Israel is somehow good and how measured retaliation by Israel is obscene, over-the-top, arrogant etc etc. Perhaps Mr BLADES could explain how he would feel if the England failed to defend itself, against attack from... let's say um...somewhere like ,,,Germany, for example. Oh hand on a minute....
Let's face it folks, Mr BLADES hates Israel and every thing she stands for and no amount of rational argument will ever persuade him to think otherwise - even the fact that Israel is probably all that stands between him, his family and suicide bombings. There's just no pleasing some people.

Pessimist

derek BLADES
I did address a comment to you, but the particular one you are referring to was addressed to your colleague Si,N. The amusing pronoun routine was the giveaway. It was hilarious the first time, not so much the second.

Admittedly the subject was your illogical theory that the voters of Gaza were innocent victims, while insisting, in the same breath, that Hamas was democratically elected.

Try understanding it again, in any position you like. ( It’s tail, not tale.)

Talking of positions, could you flesh out your cunning strategy of moving out of range to accommodate terrorism. It sounds rather good. Where would we all end up I wonder. Probably all crouching together in some corner or other.

The Gazans, what are they to do? Have you forgotten your very own strategy so soon? I suppose even if they moved to one of the unpopulated areas of the Gaza strip, you know, the ones people pretend not to know about, their democratically elected freedom fighters would no doubt be in hot pursuit, fearlessly launching their home-crafted little ineffectual rockets from under someone’s burka. You just can’t win.

Try standing on your head.

Si, N

Pessimist, no thanks - I prefer the distance. Though I will note a few of things:

1. I’m not a proxy for Derek Blades – he can respond perfectly well for himself using his own words (as opposed to ‘Chosen Words’, or trite bites of hasbara)

2. I did indeed read, ‘“[t]his looks very like collective punishment for the Gazans' impertinence in having democratically elected a government the Israelis do not like”’, but I recognised that as a citation of DB (doing OK on the comprehension so far…)

3. I then read, ‘[h]ow can you have a democratically elected government and expect those who voted for it to be exempt from the consequences?’. These I took to be Pessimist's (probably ‘Chosen’) words and that is what I responded to.

4. At no point prior to Pessimists response to me did Pessimist mention the Hamas hide amongst the populace therefore we’ll just kill anything that moves canard.

About indiscriminately killing civilians - I wonder does Pessimist know of ‘the liquidation of Hamas activist Saleh Shehadeh in the Gaza Strip on July 22, by means of a one-ton bomb that killed 15 civilians’. (The High and the Mighty, Vered Levy-Barzilai, Haaretz, 21 August 2002) That's a 1 ton bomb dropped on a densely packed neighbourhood in the dead of night. Indiscriminate?

Perhaps the Dec 2008/Nov 2009 indiscriminate IDF slaughter of 1,400 (mostly civilian) Gazans escaped Pessimists attention.

A Givati Brigade soldier remembered the random slaughter thusly:

‘[a]nd then I try to explain to the guy that not everyone who is in there is a terrorist, and that after he kills, say, three children and four mothers, we'll go upstairs and kill another 20 or so people. And in the end it turns out that [there are] eight floors times five apartments on a floor - something like a minimum of 40 or 50 families that you murder. I tried to explain why we had to let them leave, and only then go into the houses. It didn't really help. This is really frustrating, to see that they understand that inside Gaza you are allowed to do anything you want, to break down doors of houses for no reason other than it's cool’. (Shooting and Crying, Amos Harel, Haaretz, 20 March 2009)

Pessimist talked of a ‘fanatical ideology they’re brainwashed into following’.

Just ahead of the 2008/09 Gaza massacre – about the Chief Military Rabbinate’s advising IDF gunmen to behave as above described - Haaretz reported this:

‘[t]he Chief Military Rabbinate's behavior "harms the delicate fabric of relations between the nonreligious and religious in the IDF," a senior officer told Haaretz. "In a number of cases it is religious brainwashing and, indirectly, also political [brainwashing]," said the officer’. (Israel Military Rabbi Under Fire for 'Brainwashing' Soldiers, Amos Harel, 23 October 2008)

And a word about human shields: Johnnies.

Si, N

Pessimist, no thanks - I prefer the distance. Though I will note a few of things:

1. I’m not a proxy for Derek Blades – he can respond perfectly well foro himself using his own words (as opposed to ‘Chosen Words’, or trite bites of hasbara)

2. I did indeed read, ‘“[t]his looks very like collective punishment for the Gazans' impertinence in having democratically elected a government the Israelis do not like”’, but I recognised that as a citation of DB (doing OK on the comprehension so far…)

3. I then read, ‘[h]ow can you have a democratically elected government and expect those who voted for it to be exempt from the consequences?’. These I took to be Pessimist's (probably ‘Chosen’) words and that is what I responded to.

4. At no point prior to Pessimist's response to me did Pessimist mention the Hamas hide amongst the populace therefore we’ll just kill anything that moves canard.

About indiscriminately killing civilians - I wonder does Pessimist know of ‘the liquidation of Hamas activist Saleh Shehadeh in the Gaza Strip on July 22, by means of a one-ton bomb that killed 15 civilians’. (The High and the Mighty, Vered Levy-Barzilai, Haaretz, 21 August 2002) To be clear, that's a 1 ton bomb dropped on a densely packed nieghbouhood in the dead of night. Indiscriminate? There have been hundreds of these ‘targeted killings’ in recent years.

The Dec 2008/Jan 2009 indiscriminate IDF slaughter of 1,400 (mostly civilian) Gazans may have escaped Pessimists attention.

A Givati Brigade soldier remembered the random slaughter thusly:

‘[a]nd then I try to explain to the guy that not everyone who is in there is a terrorist, and that after he kills, say, three children and four mothers, we'll go upstairs and kill another 20 or so people. And in the end it turns out that [there are] eight floors times five apartments on a floor - something like a minimum of 40 or 50 families that you murder. I tried to explain why we had to let them leave, and only then go into the houses. It didn't really help. This is really frustrating, to see that they understand that inside Gaza you are allowed to do anything you want, to break down doors of houses for no reason other than it's cool’. (Shooting and Crying, Amos Harel, Haaretz, 20 March 2009)

Pessimist talked of a ‘fanatical ideology they’re brainwashed into following’.

Just ahead of the 2008/09 Gaza massacre – about the Chief Military Rabbinate’s advising IDF gunmen to behave as above described - Haaretz reported this:

‘[t]he Chief Military Rabbinate's behavior "harms the delicate fabric of relations between the nonreligious and religious in the IDF," a senior officer told Haaretz. "In a number of cases it is religious brainwashing and, indirectly, also political [brainwashing]," said the officer’. (Israel Military Rabbi Under Fire for 'Brainwashing' Soldiers, Amos Harel, 23 October 2008)

And a word about human shields: Johnnies.

Pessimist

Si,N
“I will note a few of things.”

So will I.
1. The ‘of’’ is superfluous.

2. You must be a proxy for BLADES since you are answering for each other.

3. Of course I choose my words. Don’t you? Maybe yours fell into your computer at random. I did wonder about that when I read the first part of number 4.
However, the rest of your comment is comprised entirely of chosen words of your own.

So good you named them twice.

George

Si, N,

You are obviously unaware that "Shooting and Crying, Amos Harel, Haaretz, 20 March 2009" has been totally discredited. Just reading it, it is obvious that it is a total fabrication by people who were saying what they thought the listeners wanted to hear. Let's take the figures of the Givati soldier as an example. He talks of murdering 40 or 50 families in just one apartment building and implies that this happened more than once. Given that the average family size in Gaza is probably no smaller than 6, then in each apartment building at least somewhere between 240 and 300 people were murdered. Compare that to the total death toll and only a fool would insist that this report was true.

SHIM

We have tried to kill them slowly through malnutrition and economic blockades, lower their resistance and increase illness, these tunnels must be closed and you are right to point to their existence.

Si, N

Ah, another SHIM dropping - its honesty is refreshing - it's the only pro-Israeli voice on here that actually tells Israeli policy like it is.

Adam B.

Sin, you seem incapable of detecting (inaccurate) sarcasm.

Si, N

SHIM's is not '(inaccurate) sarcasm' though is it? Like I said, it's an accurate account of Isareli policy.

As Matan Vilnai said when promising to visit a 'bigger shoah' on the Palestinians in March 2008:

"[w]e're getting close to using our full strength. Until now, we've used a small percentage of the army's power because of the nature of the territory."

Cut to the 2008/09 Gaza massacre - 1,400 mostly civilian Palestinians indiscriminately slaughtered. Vilnai's word was good.

About starving Palestinians; Dov Weisglass explained in 2006,

"the idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet but not to make them die of hunger."

A sample of the effects of that diet:

all 16,400 children (under 5 years of age) treated at the Ard al-Insan Child Nutrition Centre (25-30 new referrals daily) were found to be malnourished.

The Centre’s target group is children suffering the effects of second and third degree malnutrition - half the children are mildly malnourished - 32 percent suffer from second-degree malnutrition - the remaining 16 percent are third-degree malnourished.

10.7% of children in Gaza aged under five suffer stunted growth due to chronic malnutrition.

65% of children aged 9-12 months, and 35% of pregnant women are anaemic.

No, Mr. Barbarian, SHIM tells it as it is - yes he's off message (using his own words rather than the 'Chosen Words') - but he speaks the truth.

C. Gee

Si, N , Oct 28, at 12:57:

Malnourishment of body and mind for Palestinian children.
Take a gander at Hamas Children's TV. Clear message: Jews are pigs, be a martyr and die killing 'em.
Why should you, or any of us, care more for Palestinian children than the Palestinians do?
Without friends like you, of course, giving Hamas (and the PLO/PA) hope that their violence and cruelty to their own people is justified in the cause against Israel, that the first and only national concern should be exterminating Jews, the Palestinians might have started to build infrastructure, a justice system, and an economy - in other words, a state.

Adam B.

Sin, you really need to learn that not everyone who disagrees with you is a "barbarian."

Heard of differing views? I don't think you're used to hearing anyone disagree with you. Must be nice to live such a sheltered life.

Any malnourishment (and I remain to be convinced) is the result of Hamas' terrorist policies. You need to realize that the Palestinians are responsible for themselves, and they could use the aid money (more than ANY susaharan African country) more wisely.

ISAAC

SHIM speaks well, if bluntly. We need to be clear about Israeli strategy here. We do not blockade those squatters for fun. This costs us greatly. We have a clear long term objective in the area, and it does not include their continued existence on our land or the provision of so called human rights to them.

stanley Jerusalem

Today's news reports indicates that the democratically elected govt. of Gaza, Hamas, to you, has warned their electorate aginst supporting Mr Mazen's Fatah.
Just what do you imagine this warning entails folks?

phil

Adam B maybe shim could clarify whether it was sarcasm for sin -or maybe its just an impostor posing as an Israeli-it wouldn't be the first time would it?

C.GEE said it exactly how it is ,and indeed what I have said many times .those like sin encourage the militants and the innocents from the comfort of their armchairs and prolong the suffering of both peoples -he is a very brave man sitting where he is .

SHIM

phil please explain for what we are doing with the squatters in gaza ? what exactly is our long term plan there in your eyes? our lives are being lost for the purpose of a strategy that is well connected and thought out. Mrs Phillips understands and supports this.

phil

SHIM
November 1st, 2009 10:47pm

I really do not understand what you are saying ,you are writing in riddles and if I could understand I would reply to you -If you are an Israeli surely you cannot agree with anything sin says ,we have had his demented ravings here for years .never with any solutions ,just inventions and hatred -Please tell me what exactly you are trying to say and you will get a civil answer. ----confused phil