Britain's Quisling party

DavidO

If you are right, Melanie. And I'm sure you are, then the elctorate has a clear choice to make. That choice is between the only 2 meaningful alternatives on offer, UKIP or BNP.

If neither UKIP nor the BNP can make a decisive beakthrough at the next election, I desperately fear for the future of our country and its people.

cmp

Absolutely.

George Atkisson

From the US perspective, does this mean that all treaties, between the US and all former European nations, including NATO, are now null and void and must be renegotiated with Brussels? The formerly sovereign nations who signed those treaties no longer exist. Just wondering what the EU position is on this.

Henry Sidgwick

I agree with the criticism of the EU. However, it serves no rational purpose to call Mr. Cameron Quisling (just as it served no rational purpose the other day to complain of a verbal "pogrom"). Quisling had vanishingly little support among the people of Norway while Mr. Cameron is the leader of one of our largest parties. Quisling betrayed his country to the NAZIS. It is stretching a point to blame Mr. Cameron of betraying his country. If there has been a betrayal it has been committed incrementally and serially by many politicians over forty years. And it is surely silly at best to imply that the EU is in any way to be likened to the Nazis, even if it is also engaged in creating a pan-European polity. Talk of Quislings and pogroms is rabble-rousing.

Merlyn

I used to think the conspiracy theorists were fear mongers, but now I wonder where the buck actually stops
... is it The New World Order that Gordon so smilingly proclaims on Youtube?

The evil mess we are in now would have seemed unthinkable to most of us 50 years ago.
In fact most people do not even realize the reality of what Lisbon actually means...

True Bred Pomponian

Where's Walter Walker when we need him?

Onnalee

Brilliantly written. All very depressing.

David

Perhaps you could also explain how the Spanish government is irrelevant, or the German government, or the Danish government.

paddio

A population who cannot even begin to grasp the terms of the most important treaty their country has ever signed; a Prime Minister who cannot even begin to grasp his country's legal system; and a Chancellor of the Exchequer who cannot even begin to grasp economics. What s future for the UK!

Neil Turner

Well said

This is the first piece I've seen that describes the "meta-issue", or root cause. Just about every other crisis our beloved country faces right now results from our loss of sovereignty

Having had time to reflect on DCs words overnight, I believe he has missed the mark, and unless he gives me an "in or out" manifesto pledge then I'm over to UKIP.

The Gateless Gate

Fighting Afghans to give their people democracy - at the same denying democracy to the people of the UK?

Welcome to our "Alice in Blunderland" topsy-turvey country where Mandelson is the Mad Hatter and Cameron the dormouse in the teapot.

Why is the Lisbon Treaty like a raven or writing desk?

MartinW

A new job for Simon Mann - organise another coup, this time in this country!

Mjolnir de Jersiaise

Good morning everyone, and welcome to the New World Order! We will never persuade the three "mainstream" parties to undo this act of treason by pulling out of the EU; therefore the BNP, I'm sorry to say, is now the only party to vote for if we want to save our nation (UKIP are a waste of time). If we leave it too long we'll probably lose the right to vote at all and our last remaining lifeline, the BNP, will be closed down. Of course, I don't hold out much hope that the British people will wake up in time so I'm afraid it is a case of: "so long England, and Britain, it was nice knowing you - but all good things must come to an end!"

Chris

Well if as a result we abandon our quasi imperialist pretensions and stop invading places where we have no right to be then it may yet be a good thing. It's about time Britain gave up on its silly bullying past and grew up.

Andre

I completely disagree with this. It is no good dismissing Europe because of the straight banana bureaucracy in Brussels. The choice between staying in Europe and leaving - is all that is left and it is no choice at all. To survive culturally and politically we have to remain part of the European Union. However we, that is the British, have to make it work better. Having thrown wide the doors on the expenses fiddling and corruption in our own parliament let us do the same for Europe. Britain's best hope for defending its values, free trade, tolerance, democracy - that is resistance to political and theocratic (Islamic) dictatorship - lie in leading a strong Europe which affirms this. As a member of the EU I want to see a European-wide christian democratic party that I can vote for to defend my culture and my faith. Cameron's Conservative Party is not the one, I agree. I think I prefer the Bavarian CSU.

Ruth Padbury

Even if we did get a referendum and voted no, we would just get asked again untill we give the answer the EU wants

winston

Good. Goodbye 'Great' Britain. Good riddance.

LES SHUELL

Where's the Queen in all this or doesn't she have a say in what these traitorous members of her government and "loyal opposition" are doing to her people ?

Augustus

"Good afternoon. Good gloomy afternoon. Let me read you a brief statement on the Constitutional Court ruling of today. First, I have expected this decision of the Constitutional Court, and I respect it even if I don't agree essentially with its contents and its arguments. Second, I can't agree also with its form - with its judicial quality. The ruling of the Constitutional Court is not neutral judicial analysis, but tendentious political pleading of the Lisbon Treaty from the side of its supporters. It is visible on the absolutely inadequate confrontational way of elaboration and also presentation of this ruling. Third, above all I cannot agree with its content, because by Lisbon Treaty validation in spite of the political opinion of the Constitutional Court the Czech Republic will lose its sovereignty. This change today and in the future legitimates the part of our public which is not without care as to our national and state existence and independence, and which doesn't want to reconcile with it. Fourth, I cannot respect the Constitutional Court formula of president's obligation to ratify this, or any other international contract
without any delay referring to the law of the Constitutional court. It is a law that deals with the Constitutional Court function, but not with presidential rights, which are done only by the Constitution. Fifth, I declare that I signed the Lisbon Treaty today at 1500 hours."
-Vaclav Klaus, Prague, 1st November, 2009 (translation)

Clearly a broken man.

Sam ARMSTRONG

Just because Andre feels suicidal, doesn't mean we all do. This country does not NEED the EU. Britain's future lies with the rest of the Anglosphere, USA, Canada, NZ, Australia. These nations are intrinsically all the same and should join together. European ideas are not good for us. Europe is craven, socialist and authoritarian. The Anglosphere is the most free part of the world.

just Louise

We were duped, good and proper, by the unlamented Heath. In the process we betrayed the Commonwealth that sacrificed its sons for us in two world wars, those brave troops who with their descendents are now made to enter this Septic Isle through the "aliens" gates.
There's no point in the Conservative Party (except to massage "Call me Dave"'s ego). And the way things are going there will soon be no point in the Parliament of Westminster.
We are governed increasingly by faceless unaccountable bueaucrats, just like the USSR
at its worst.
Remember that song, "They're always be an England?"
Pah!
It's UKIP or perish!
Dave can renege on his promises, and party members like me can renege on ours.

Mr Commonsense

The Lisbon Treaty is a paper tiger.How can the spineless Brussel sprouts hope to rule Britannia.It's not over till it's over. The renaissance of British patriotism is now very apparent in Lord Pearson,Nick Griffin and all our fearless outspoken citizens.They will lead us as a people into the next election and put the Great back into our nation.Patriotism can no longer be a four letter word neither can it be appended by the lib/lab/con elitists.

Janis

It's easy to get lost in other countries’ politics and moods, but lots of what British commentators put out looks truly puzzling to me.

I'd be overjoyed if any of the major political parties in my country would formulate a policy similar to what Mr Cameron formulated yesterday. He aspires to put into practice (or at least to test) something Lisbon treaty itself spells out (Article 48(2) TEU) - namely, that is possible "either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties".

The Eurofanatics are already going all out trying to declare the very option of reducing EU competencies impossible. You must either shut up and accept every EU power-grab, or get out of EU altogether, they say in essence.

There can and will be doubt as to whether Britain under Mr Cameron will have enough leverage to bring to conclusion what has been proposed. The process is long and “other member states” can opt to obstruct Britain every step of the way just for the sake of it. But to suggest that there should be In/Out referendum straight away is, IMO:

a) the very act this article accuses Mr Cameron to have done - surrendering the battle to "repatriate" competencies before it even has begun;

b) validating what the Eurofanatics are saying - that no scrapping of EU competencies should be possible at all.

hippiepooter

"He said he would ... seek to pass a UK sovereignty Bill ‘to make it clear that ultimate authority stays in this country, in our Parliament’."

Melanie, in light of this dont you think you are overreacting? David Cameron disappoints on major levels to the point that the Conservative Party *has in my view gone AWOL and left us with a 'choice' of three social liberal parties, but I think this is one of the very rare ocassions I think you have been unfair to the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

Watt Tyler

From an above post "To survive culturally and politically we have to remain part of the European Union."

What a load of tosh. And I am happy to say that I think that Britons have finished feeling threatened by statements like this. Let me tell you something - you keep trying to frighten, and you will cause greater resentment. If you keep calling people who are concerened about their right to vote for their government "headbangers" then you will cause greater resentment.

David Cameron, if you keep trying to take the public for fools, you will cause greater resentment.

Vote UKIP

Graeme Thompson

DavidO
November 5th, 2009 9:19am

DavidO, if a single issue party like UKIP can make a breakthrough at the next election, it will be promising, if the BNP makes a breakthrough at the next election I will fear far more for the future of my country and its people than if one of the three social liberal parties get elected to continue apace the destruction of our nation through multi-culturalism. There are a good number of people who are not Nazis who support the BNP, but how they manage to blind themselves to the naked Nazi reality of the BNP is a testament to people's powers of self-delusion.

If Melanie and like-minded opinion formers can get a party together to stand in areas where the Nazi BNP are strongest and wipe them off the face of the earth, that would be great. If it can also defeat the three anti-British social liberal parties only the Lord making Margarat Thatcher 30 years younger would give me more joy.

James T

"What leverage will he have to bring back any powers"

The leverage he has - still has - is a referendum. That is precisely why we shouldn't deploy that now. As we now know, the only referendum we can effectively have is "in or out". And if you really believe we are better off leaving the EU, and we have a referendum which concludes "out", clearly you'd be happy with that.

But if you are a member of the "in Europe but not run by Europe" camp, those who believe that we should be part of a cooperative union of sovereign nations - which I believe is what most people in the country who call themselves "Eurosceptic" want - then just imagine what would happen if we held a referendum and the British public voted to stay in? Then the Eurosceptic cause would be absolutely toast. A British "yes" vote would see us bullied around for decades and eliminate any prospect of sensible renegotiation.

Cameron didn't make as much as I'd like of the "referendum in the next manifesto but one" point, but keeping our powder dry is the best hope we have of taking on the federalists and linking up with the many people from the centre-right across Europe who want a different sort of EU. This will be a long game.

EU Flautist

When is the referendum on continued EU membership?

More to the point, when is democracy coming home?

Are we all EU autists now, and if the Conservatives get into power, is this as useful as a band of one-armed flautists?

Dixon

I agree totally.

Jerry

The EU will fall apart soon enough. It is based upon the Socialist understanding of the Universe that includes special treatment for powerful people and groups. A true liberal democracy would apply Law to all comers equally. That is beyond the understanding of Europeans at this moment and perhaps for the brief future of their world.

alan stoddart

As I understand it things are the opposite of how Cameron wishes them to be. Far from legislating to make the UK Parliament the final arbiter on sovereignty, the EU, already deciding 80% of our laws, has the final say on any law passed by our own Parliament...such laws have to pass a compatibilty(with EU policy and ethos) test and if the EU feels the new law is unacceptable to them they could quash it.

Cameron seems to lack political judgement and nerve despite obvious indications from the mass of the public regarding policies. He is confused which way to jump trying to pander to all sides and creeds.

Grammar schools, all-woman selection lists, now climate change, Europe (Ken Clarke was a mistake) and no doubt soon immigration will be another...'well yes things are bad but....'.

Venerable Bede told us that the English, robbed of the flower of its young men, lost their fighting spirit and ability to look after themselves...relying on Rome(America) then the Anglo-Saxons(Labour's Immigrants) to save us, only for those new immigrants to attempt to subdue the Britons as they sent back to their homelands for more people as Britain was a rich and fertile land, but cowardly.

Who cannot make comparisons to the present day...Churchill, and others, believed we lost the cream of our youth and the most public spirited in the wars. We have always had a balance of the warrior and peacemaker, but that is now out of kilter with a preponderance of appeasers.

They forget where all these laws and rights and 'Western' privileges come from and how easily they are lost.
A failure to defend them means death of a nation and its culture.
Freedom is not free.

Cheeta Watch

The BBC includes in the list of changes: "Removal of national vetoes in a number of areas, including fighting climate change, energy, security and emergency aid." Climate Change? Security?? Why was our own government so insulting to us, it's employers, by failing to hold a referendum?

Bunnykins

I always wondered what was really meant by the words Perfidious Albion. Now I know...

Augustus

Re. above post, it should of course read: 3rd November, 2009.

As regards all this talk of European cooperation and large-scale politics, it's difficult to see why this is so much more efficient and better. To take just one example; the question of old-age in Europe with people living longer etc. Why is it not more efficient to tackle matters like that at a national level, or even a local one? To put it another way, if two people each have toothache, they don't try and find a solution together, one goes to his dentist, and the other goes to his.

There have been many menacing stages in the EU's progess which has dismayed a lot of previous Euro-romantics and Euro-enthusiasts. The treaty of Maastricht suddenly appeared, like a bolt out of the blue. Monetary union is all well and good, but the way that the Euro was introduced was a disgrace. Then there is the matter of how certain countries were admitted to membership without satisfying the convergence criteria. They should have been much more selective with the Eurozone. And since Maastricht, the Union has been overrun with directives, especially on social matters. Suddenly rules regarding the labour market have been pushed through by majority voting at EU level.

This striving for social and fiscal harmony, a kind of political answer to an original economic union, is heading for disaster. Governments intervening in the labour market is traditionally a bad way of going about things, and certainly on a supra-national level. It's simply unproductive,
because income levels of the member states are too variable.
Germans want to work less and have more free time, whilst Slovaks and Chechens want to work more and earn more. But the EU comes with labour rules to make the whole Union equal. From an economic point of view that is absurd. Then trades unions want to make agreements at EU level simply to be able to
snub their noses at multinationals and globalization. But the wages in Europe are already too high, one of the reasons for too high a level of unemployment. The more centralized the labour negotiating structure becomes, the more trades unions become super-powerful. Far better to let the trades unions compete at national levels, that way lies moderation in wage increases. That way they have got to be careful not to make demands which are not followed up elsewhere. Anyway, wages should be related to productivity. If all wages in Europe were equal, and there was
an equal distribution of labour and productivity, then there might be some sense in such wage equality. But that mobility
is not there, neither is the perfect distribution of productivity. But that's what the market is for, not the central government in Brussels.

Then there is the question of political power, power to control the lives of 350 million people. The Commission has powers equal to no other bureaucracy on earth. It has a monopoly on law-making. The European Parliament is the only parliament in the democratic world which cannot put proposals
for new laws to the legislature.
That is really unbelievable. We all know that administrators are far more likely to be lost in a sea of rules and regulations than politicians. The Commission has a lot of power, but little money. The only way to exploit that power without spending money is to conceive new laws. That is the essence of the pride and superiority of the European set-up. In that lies the great and ultimate danger: The loss of democratic accountability.

ahem

What future? The future is here.

EDDIE

There is no doubt that the British Government is now the equivalent to local Borough Council. In the U.S.A. the electorate votes directly for Congress. We in Europe have a system where we cannot directly vote for anyone in real power. The European parliament is merely a talking shop and a wonderful source of expenses of all sorts and sizes. The real power cannot be challenged directly by a vote. We might as well go for a Caliph and be done with it.

Raymond Douglas

"Power" for its own sake , and a desire to get THEIR feet under ministerial tables is all that drives the so-called conservative party ! They will do anything, say anything, to get their hands on the devalued keys of number ten ! Who on earth do patriotic Englishmen vote for now ? Democracy is dead. The age of European oligarchy has been re-born ! Please see David hathaway's "the rape of Europe " to find out the spiritual roots of this re-born Roman Empire !

By the right, quick ....

I am not sure the Quisling comparison is fair but otherwise I agree with every word. However, despite his lack of backbone David Cameron does have a purpose, it is simply to rid us of the appalling tribe which currently governs(?)the country. As to the EU, DC does not have the passion or the stomach for the battle to come. The Brussels machine will surely humiliate and defeat him, but once it has, like it or not he will stand aside and allow a real warrior to take the lead. David Cameron is merely the facilitator but he has a role to play. The thing I cannot yet fathom is whether the real leader will fight the battle from within the Tory Party, or at the head of it's replacement as the UKs foremost centre right political party. Maybe that will depend upon how long it takes the Tories to wake up and smell the coffee.

GeoffM

I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.
James Madison (1751–1836)

Gordon Neil

I went to London yesterday to visit the National Gallery's display of Spanish religious art. On my way back to the tube I noticed some commotion in Trafalgar Square. Curious about the RAF Banners and contingent of RAF personnel gathering, I discovered that they were there to mark the placing of a statue to a brave and canny New Zealander called Parks. A man who had led the Famous Few over London and the South East as they enacted the joint will of Parliament and the People of this nation to resist the attempts of an undemocratic european super power to claim the right to our sovereignty.

I then wandered down Whitehall, passed the great Offices of State, to view the Mother of Parliaments and ponder the fact that 70 years on Britain has a Government led by a Prime Minister never elected to that Office, who has refused to consult the People for fear they oppose him and happily transfered that once so precious prized sovereignty to a new European Superpower. The past is indeed another country. What the hell has happened to us ?

John Hall

Not a Quisling but a Halifax.

Apart from that, right on the money Melanie. Thank you for your courage.

steve

Right on, Melanie! And look at all of the British soldiers who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan because of EU control over the UK's foreign policy.

Neil Craig

I think it does have to be UKIP or the BNP (I very much prefer UKIP but their chances depend on which is stronger in the area). All 3 of the official parties have proven, by breaking abolute cast irn/manifesto promises which they would all have found perfectly easy to keep that there are no circumstances whatsoever under which any promise any election promise any of them make can ever be considered trustworthy in which case there is nothing anbody with any self respect can vote for. The total dishonesty of all the official parties is more important than even the EU question since it goes to the heart of how society functions.

logdon

"His announcement that he would not hold a referendum on the Lisbon treaty because it had now passed into law was not the issue. Of course it is pointless holding a referendum on a treaty which is no longer blockable. The real point is that, since it has now been passed and thus subsumed Britain’s ability to govern itself as a sovereign nation into the new republic of Euroland without the people having been consulted about the loss of their ability to govern themselves, the people must now be given the opportunity to say whether they wish to remain in the EU or not."

Melanie gets to the crux.

However letting off Labour who, lets face it are the true lying, treacherous villains of the piece by denying a manifesto promise is amiss.

I watched The Politics last night and not one of those europhiles expressed any true rage.

Neil, to give him credit, did totally demolish the Labour guy's (who he?) spluttering about how different the Treaty is to the Constitution but the wet infant Tory Boy allowed it to pass over his head.

Griffin is watching all of this with glee.

Augustus

The so-called Lisbon Treaty is just the second version of the European Constitution which the electorates of France and The Netherlands rejected by referendum in 2005. But Europe's
'political establishment' refused to take 'No' for an answer. So they simply repackaged the same Constitution
in a slightly different order, but without changing its basic content. This Constitution Mark 2 was called the Treaty of Lisbon, after the place where this new document was signed. It was then subsequently pushed through the parliaments of the member states without allowing any more referendums, except Ireland, which was obliged to put the treaty before the people
because the Irish Constitution required it. After the Irish rejected the treaty in June last year, their 'No' vote was simply discarded. They were made to vote again, and in October they succumbed, thus making Vaclav Klaus the last man standing in Europe.

Now the game has drawn to its close, and a treaty, so despised
by the people, and rejected by so many, has turned all of half a billion people of Greater Europe into genuine citizens of a supra-National European State,
which is empowered to act as a state in its own right vis a vis
all the other states and their own citizens. It will have its own president, foreign minister,
diplomatic corps, and public prosecutor. From now on, the only remaining sovereign power of any significance in Europe is Russia. Apart from Switzerland, Norway and Iceland,
the EU leviathon will have a genuine grip on every nation, whose own national parliaments are, in accordance with the Lisbon Treaty, obliged to
'contribute actively to the good functioning of the Union'.
i.e. to further primarily the interests of the 'new' Union, rather than those of their own people. So now we Europeans have a new throne, albeit an undemocratic one. A throne in Brussels.

GaryO

This is exactly the way Turkey will be heaped upon us. No one, not even the many Turks who oppose joining, will have a say in the matter.

What is the point in voting at the general elections anymore? We might as well all stay at home and watch a bit of Corrie.

phil

Henry Sidgwick
November 5th, 2009 9:37am --what the hell is going on now -this is the third time in a few days that I have agreed with you -I cannot see the point to this article apart from a good moan ,and what could DC have done anyway ? I cannot believe Mel is suggesting we go with the bnp ,so what is her solution ? Surely not that of king canute

I spend a considerable amount of time with Europeans and I will tell you they think the Brits are the most backward nation in Europe and we are becoming a joke ! .I greatly prefer to be British but we have no choice now because we are about to become isolated -Some should spend time on the continent and see their roads and the hospitals etc -they are not as daft as so many people seem to think -The idea that Johnny foreigner is inferior is just plain ludicrous -If we do not wake up soon we will drift into a dark age of our own making .--------------------------

Onnalee
November 5th, 2009 9:44am

"Brilliantly written. All very depressing-"--------------------why brilliant? although I agree its depressing

Frank P

At last! A conservative post on an allegedly conservative collection of blogs. What a pity we didn't get a conservative statement from the leader of the alleged Conservative Party.

Hope you do all your business with he Spectator by email Melanie. If you ever have to go to the office, give me a ring and I'll volunteer as tea-taster, just in case.

Happily the commentariat is overwhelming with you, even though the editorial staff seems entirely against you.

Your platform must be creaking, but if it collapses I'm sure you'll be head hunted immediately.

Can't you transfer to Standpoint? Might as well make it a family affair! Perhaps they can't afford you, but I'm sure the circulation would leap and make it worth their while to match your Speccie fee?

As always, your is the best judicial summary I've seen on Cameron's travesty (mind you there have been some cracking posts from the usual suspects among the punters, much to the chagrin of the trolls).

Verity

LES SHUELL - I have asked many times on The Speccie site, "Where is the Queen in all this?" No one seems to know.

Admittedly, she's now old and dealing with her country being ceded to a foreign power without a shot being fired may be too much for her to deal with, but then, where is Charles? Where are HM's advisors? What is going on around here?

phil

just Louise I am sad too but I am also pragmatic (I hope )-I see no way apart from joining Europe and making ourselves an integral and influential part of it -we can continue to moan but the millennium will pass us by and we will become isolated -an island cut off from the rest of the world and slowly sinking into a fifth class nation -that is not what I want even if I preferred what we had ,which I do .We do not have it now ,our Empire has gone ,the "backward" nations are overtaking us -India ,Brazil, China ,as a kid I could not think how many makes of motor cars we made ,now we hope to make them for other nations ..The m/c ship canal influenced half a million jobs ,mostly gone and now I cannot think what we actually manufacture ,can you ?

If we continue to bury our heads in the sand I worry what will happen to us .we preoccupy ourselves with immigration (me too)and yet countless thousands are leaving to live elsewhere ,the pound is plummeting and the national debt is going skywards -do you really think we are heading in the right direction (rhetorical)and the opportunists from the bnp are to be our saviours (again rhetorical ) .

Mel writes much that I admire but this article is a step too far with nothing constructive to say .I cannot wait for this government to leave us ,the Liberals are a waste of time apart from Vince C ,I know little about UKIP ,the greens are a joke and the bnp should not be mentioned in the same breath as the other parties ,so what is left ,only DC ,SO WE HAD BETTER BATTER HIS DOOR DOWN TO MAKE HIM SEE THE COMMON SENSE OF THE BRITISH PEOPLE -no more political correctness ,sensible immigration policies ,the hell with the stupid consequences of human rights legislation which so far only takes our rights away and is manipulated by those with bad intentions ,and out with the FSA who only manage to handcuff the honest ones and allow a free hand to crooks -Louise I have more to say but that's enough for now :)-

I really like to read your words and I hope mine are not too much for a cold evening regards Phil

Verity

Sam Armstrong, I have been saying for years that our strength is in the Anglosphere and British Common Law and the English language. It gets more important daily as India is now surging into the front lines. We should stick with our own kind. Europe and Europeans are fine, but they have different laws and a different mindset to us.

I have long asked for a formal Anglosphere set-up.

David Cameron is a weak man made weaker by his hunger for power. His intelligence is average. He has no qualities as a leader. He is greedy and self-seeking and hungry for a seat at the top table in Brussels. He fails to inspire, to say the least.

He has no qualifications to be the Leader of a once-great political party, which is diminished by his Leadership.

Shame on anyone considering the BNP

For all those saying we must now desert mainstream parties because of the Lisbon Treaty, and more emotively 'the only way to save the UK is voting BNP or UKIP'....
shame on you for even considering the BNP!
I wouldn't vote UKIP personally but I have no strong feelings. However with the BNP you are further peddling their lies and thinly veiled hate. You talk of an uprising against the Lisbon Treaty (a ridiculous notion as you are massively overstating its effect on British sovereignty which bifurcated about 100 years ago), yet the state would be torn limb from limb if the BNP even got to opposition in parliament let alone winning an election.
I am partly frightened by the frequency of the considerations for BNP on this blog, but then I think that the same people are probably too cowardly to support them publicly and just do it with their internet pseudonym to let out some of their hate.
we talk of radicalization in the Muslim community a lot, and how local communities MUST act against it. Well here is a litmus test for this (online) community with its own elements radicalized by a violent, supremacist and racist ideology.
we all know that it is important to practice what you preach!

Al Mackenzie

Very good, Melanie, but not quite correct. The UK lost its sovereignty after Maastricht. It just wasn't written in stone so clearly as it is now. Cameron is pathetic. Who would ever believe in such a superficial person ?

Les Hardie

From a Yank who once was a Democrat and is now a conservative "peasant with a pitchfork" ready to storm the Obama socialist castle: British cousins, remember our famous colonial flag from 1776: "Don't Tread on Me!" The words were under a picture of a rattlesnake coiled and ready to strike. We rebelled against a tyrant king in 1776; now it's your turn to rebel against the EU tyrant. Once time, your American cousins ( but not the Obamatrons) are on your side against the newest European oppression. Fight back!

Kittler

Melanie, please stop referring to the UK as a nation, it is no such thing. It does not have the characteristics of a nation, example, there is no national football team. Whoever heard of a nation without a national football team.

Herbert Thornton

Andre says that he wants to see a European-wide Christian democratic party that he can vote for to defend his culture and faith.

I’m afraid that will never be enough. What is needed is a European-wide Anti-Islamic democratic party dedicated to removing Islam from the whole of Europe.

The only sign of that on the horizon is the BNP. The policies of all the other parties vary from inadequate in the case of UKIP to foolish and worse in the cases of all the others.

Sergey

There is some consolation in thought that all previous attempts to create a new artificial nation (Napoleon, Stalin, Tito, etc.) failed miserably. EU follows the same path. Tsunami wave of nationalism swept all them. This happens when profligate spending and increasingly parasitic bureaucracy ruin financial stability and led to bankraptcy of the state, incapable anymore pay for all entitlements they promissed - and people revolted. This will not take much time for ageing European population. In fifteen or twenty years this superstate will implode.

Noa Zrk

The May general election offers no promise of an alternative to the present corrupt, intellectually bankrupt government.

We will simply see a continuation and extension of the EU dictatorship. The spineless and meaningless 'initiatives' proposed by Cameron will simply serve to distract a largely uncomprehending electorate from the largely complete political castration of the UK as a sovereign power following the systematic destruction of our system of constitutional government by Labour.

I never expected in my own lifetime to see the UK decline from being the leader of the British Empire to the status of an obscure off-shore Northern province of a socialist super state. Cameron himself will be no more than the equivalent of a County Council Leader.

I foresee a future of extreme political fragmentation and instability, the disintigration of the main political parties and the rapid rise of a charismatic national leader.

Jez

Shame on anyone considering the BNP;

"I am partly frightened by the frequency of the considerations for BNP on this blog, but then I think that the same people are probably too cowardly to support them publicly and just do it with their internet pseudonym"

"we all know that it is important to practice what you preach!"

You've just used a psuedonym.

Shame on anyone considering the BNP

Jez - i realised i used a pseudonym after i posted... however, as you're aware the use of pseudonyms was hardly the thrust of my comment!

That said, my name is Tom Durkin i live and work in London and also a student at LSE. If anyone would like to find me to try and persuade me of the merits of the BNP I am on campus everyday.

In fact, perhaps 'Herbert Thornton' and the others persuaded by the BNP could come for a public debate? Or at least tell their own colleagues their political views? How about post a picture of themselves at a rally on facebook??

Neil Saunders

Alan Stoddart

Your knowledge of history is a little shaky, to say the least.

The Anglo-Saxons about whom the Venerable Bede wrote WERE the English. Bede himself was an Anglo-Saxon.

Nice analogy, terrible history!

Verity

Noa Zrk - and it would not surprise me if that charismatic leader is Daniel Hannan.

St Bruno

Quote:
‘Jez
November 5th, 2009 8:22pm
Shame on anyone considering the BNP;’
That’s your opinion and you are entitled to it, though I find it ever so slightly pompous and patronising.
Who are you to say such a thing?
To me the word shame has some high moral tone. Shame on Gordon Brown, shame on MPs fiddling their expenses, shame on Britain to be involved in a endless bloody war, shame on Parliament for forcing unnecessary unlimited immigration on us, there is more shame than I have time or words. Britian has gone down the tube and that’s all you can say. I was once proud to be British and served my country in my own small way but now I have almost no country in fact each day just fills me with horror! Please don’t ever tell me to feel shame for considering the BNP. My vote is mine and I will do what ever I like with it; my ancestors are the only people allowed to look over my shoulder when I put my mark!

Tom Cobbett

March for England. We should gather in The Mall, from Buckingham Palace to Trafalgar Square, down Whitehall to The Cenotaph and along The Strand to St Clement Danes, but avoid and ignore Parliament Square and the House of Shame.

peter adler

Jeez, I have been reading the Spectator and Melanie's posts with enjoyment the last few years. But now it turns into a madhouse of little-englanders and not-so-crypto BNP supporters. Come on, Europe is needed becaseu national borders are getting less important as people, economies and movement become freer. And the Lisbon Treaty makes the EU more democratic.
Whereas you directly compare the EU with nazism ("Quisling").
And almost NOBODY reacts.
Total loss of credibility!

Wilhelm

Tom Durkin

'' i live and work in London and also a student at LSE. If anyone would like to find me to try and persuade me of the merits of the BNP''

Well , Tom , lets say, if you need a council house and you are put on the waiting list for say 10 years and then you see lots of third worlders getting council houses in your neighbourhood.

Wouldnt you get a slight resentment ?

Steve

David writes, is the German government irrelevant, or the Spanish or Danish governments? Of course not, any more than the governments of the US states or the Canadian provinces are irrelevant. The difference, David, is that Canada and the US have national governments to deal with national issues, and state or provincial governments to deal with more local issues. National issues, such as foreign policy, fiscal policy, and constitutional issues are handled by a national government over which we have democratic control. Europeans are being handed national governments which are reduced to local governments, with truly national powers vested now in unelected bodies. The national governments aren't irrelevant, just totally inadequate (at least, if you like democratic checks and balances). I think the best that the UK can hope for is a weak minority Conservative government with the balance of power held by UKIP. And people keep asking about the role of the Queen. I wonder too. Isn't the monarchy supposed to be the ultimate check on an out-of-control government? What could be more out-of-control than to surrender your national sovereignty to an unelected foreign body, especially after having gone to the people with a specific promise of a referendum, only a few years before? and then to have the "opposition" basically endorse this move? If this election goes wrong, Britons might as well save themselves the bother of voting in future, and those who can should consider emigrating to the rest of the anglosphere. What a weird twist of history -- so many Canadians and Americans died to preserve British freedom, only to have the British government commit hari-kari 60 years later.

Watt Tyler

Les Hardie: No Taxation without Representation! The Englishmen on both sides of the Atlantic of the 18th Century understood their God given rights. Nowadays, a supposedly sophisticated population struggles to understand. Britons for a free Britain embrace their American cousins. The Anglosphere stands against Socialism!

Wilhelm

Tom Durkin

''In fact, perhaps 'Herbert Thornton' and the others persuaded by the BNP could come for a public debate?

Well Tom, the sad fact is the dopey Unite Against Facist knuckleheads would turn up and cause a riot.

And we dont want that, do we ?

Verity

Where is our Queen?

Wilhelm

Forgot to add

At least England had a good run, a 1000 years at least, on its tombstone it will read.

England was sold out so that we could have a bit of duty free shopping at Calais.

Derek BLADES

Referenda are not a very British thing nor are they necessarily very democratic.
In Britain we elect our MPs to represent our views and, if they don't do so to our satisfaction, we have a chance to kick them out every four years or so.

The problem with a referendum is in phrasing the question. Membership of the EU is not a yes and no issue. Membership brings with it a host of advantages and disadvantages and without these being clearly explained on the referendum form the exercise becomes a farce and an opportunity for demagoguery of many nasty varieties. The recent Irish referenda provide a good example of the dangers. In the first vote a large majority were swayed by entirely spurious arguments into voting no. After due reflection those same voters recognised their folly and said yes.

Membership of the EU is exactly the kind of complicated mater where representative democracy comes into its own. We leave the decision to those who have access to all the pros and cons and the time to consider them in a balanced way. I see that David Cameron has apparently done this and concluded that leaving the EU is not a viable option for this country. He is right and Ms Phillips is wrong.

Andre

Don't be fooled by the BNP - it is run by holocaust deniers, anti-Semites and racists - whatever the clean suited Nick Griffin may pretend. The touchstone issue for the right is whether or not it supports the state of Israel. As regards European christian democrats, Herbert Thornton, I accept what you say about Islam - it is a major threat and is what Europe should be uniting against just as we had to join together to beat Nazism and Communism. How about Gert Wilders to head such a party - a good egg and a regular visitor to Israel.

Gaspare

Sadly, I largely agree with Melanies analysis, especially when you bear in mind Cameron has apparently said he will not allow a referendum on whether or not the UK should remain in the EU.
He has deprived his negotiators of their strongest potential card.
Camerons insistence that the economy is the first priority makes sense but pretending that is not linked to European issues does not, and is he asking the public to vote for a party that can't do two things at once if it gets power?
And it seems our politicians of all parties are now so enfeebled that they cannot between them summon up any protest about a French politician making comments about Conservative policy which could be regarded as interfering with our electoral process.
However,if the Conservatives do not win the next election, the most likely alternative will be a hung parliament or more Labour rule, and who would want that?
Dave the mountaineer with bright visions of the future has now brought fresh gloom to politics.

Roy

If it is known that Briton has been pushed into the Euroland conglomerate against its will, (no public choice, no referendum) then it follows that a subsequent government will have full rights to call the whole agreement illegal, null and void. Just the same as many peoples have been given British citizenship against the will and backing of the people, can also be called illegal so null and void and sent packing. What is a scrap of paper against the full authority of the majority? It is worthless!

just Louise

John, great letter in yesterday's Telegraph!
Phil, I take your point, but Switzerland, for one, seems to be managing very nicely without being fettered by EU thraldom.

In my little town, the "Big Issue" sellers (one outside the PO, t'other outside the bank)are from a certain brand new member of the Club (sorry, Tyrannical Superstate). When they want a day off - one is a young mother - a member of their extended family is railed in from Brum to save the patch.
It sure takes chutzpah to migrate to a country and immediately hawk a magazine founded to highlight an unemployment problem!
It sure takes insanity to allow it!

Sixty-three per cent

"A new PoliticsHome poll has found that almost two thirds of the public would like to have a referendum on renegotiating the UK’s relationship with the EU following the signing of the Lisbon Treaty by Czech President Vaclav Klaus."

A poll that should give the Tories cause for concern.

William

Yawn. Snore

Jez

Hi Tom- AKA Shame on anyone considering the BNP*,

(*please note that I'm 'Jez' St Bruno)

Now you are obviously an active left wing student.

I'm going to hold back here (and i really hope Melanie, i can get this one in).

You, as a student think you know everything.

You know nothing.

I work on average 10 hr a day, broken up by escaping on things like the 'coffee house' at various times within this period. I work to support my family, which i want the very best for.

I live next to Bradford which is has been colonised by a hostile and expanding culture called Islam.

If i say anything in concern to this, then i am a 'racsist' in the eyes of people like you.

The New Labour Government has actively engineered the demise of my family and i, through plans to change the social fabric of Britain through grand plans of unchecked immigration.

The Conservatives in response haven't even acknowledged that this has happened.

They have sold us out.

I know this because i run building sites all over the country, from London to Glasgow and i can see this with my own eyes.

You talk about your Campus?

Pick up your student bus-pass and travel to one of our multicultural utopia's- and then live there- for ever. Then you'd be just like the OAP (who can't go nowhere) that's seen their manor, borough or overall area totally obliterated in a matter of a few years.

Tom. Listen to this.

You won't like 'listening' because you know everything- but here goes;

The day i walk onto a Campus will be to see *my* children as students when they're grown up because i'm going to do everything within my legal power to get them there.

And no culture that see's my daughter when she's 13 years old as an easy pickup because their medieval marriage rules have been dragged from the stone-age into this land or any ideology that would want to see my teenage lads as just a couple of anti-white racsist attack victims because they're now the odd one's out, are going to stop us (if i can help it).

That is why people vote BNP.

No Tom. Shame on you.

Do you understand?

Rebel Saint

The most depressing thing about all this is the fact that the vast majority of people will still go out and vote for the same old mainstream parties. People who actually turn out to vote are all very conservative (with a small 'c').

It's this innate conservatism which means we're stuck on this nauseating Conservative/Liebour merry-go-round.

I for one am getting of the ride and my vote will be going with UKIP or BNP

ChrisP

Only 1 problem with your point of view - we have to respect the facts rather than ignore them like most other countries. Spain has ignored fishing quotas, France state aid. Why should we implement anything we dont like?

If Cameron introduced a bill saying British law was supreme as per German Law, then we would probably not adopt any EU law for years due to legal appeals, and not knowing who to send it to in the last resort!

Your argument just goes to show why you are a journalist, reactionary, almost libellous, and Mr Cameron is a politican with long term strategic plans.

If you disagree then note the number of BNP supporting idiots saying that they are the answer in the comments.

Ernest Warrender

By excersing the inevitable referendum that even Europe cannot stop THE BRITISH GENERAL ELECTION The people of Britain will overwhelmingly support UKIP and these "professional" politicians will be taught a lesson

allan pond

generally i'm very much in sympathy with your comments and of course an unequivocal commitment to put the matter before the electorate would have been from the conservative point of view a sure election winner without a doubt. But please remember that a certain level of real-politique comes into this-Cameron has to try and keep his party united and a premature commitment to an in/out referendum as you suggest Melanie would have led to huge pools of blood on the carpet without any certain corresponding gain in the polls.
You ask what leverage would a Cameron administration have to repatriate powers-well perhaps the sotto voce threat that unless the Eurorepublic did agree to further negotiations, then indeed an enabling Act would be introduced to have a referendum on continued EU membership, which as everyone in Euroland knows, the 'outs' would win hands down. That would be a hugely effective bargaining chip sure;ly ?

phil

Shame on anyone considering the BNP
November 5th, 2009 9:00pm ----

Tom well said ! these threads are full of those that like to whine without offering constructive suggestions -Herbert has always been a rational and decent contributor and I never understand how he is deluded by the bnp -he like many others I am sure are just frustrated by our bad governments and would soon switch back were they to see some common sense .

At times here I feel as if I am in bedlam ,some are real "nutters " others write such bile .like the woman who despises Cameron,Brown ,Obama ,in fact I think most people ,she would probably prefer Attilla the hun and look forward to his resurrection with a champagne breakfast .Then we have the sensible Brits like Louise and Adam B together with our terrier Linda ,and in fact many others who I do not need to name as they know I have great respect for them ,but they are thinning out in the face of the nonsense that we see here sometimes -where is the cabbie and the wonderful Kate A ?,people who wrote stimulating posts -I try but I think it is a losing battle ,but my message if a long one is do not give up ,this country needs those like you .

phil

I am having a very confusing week (chance for a silly remark for wilhelm now),but I have agreed with Henry SIDGEWICK THREE TIMES and now for the first time ever I have read something sensible from - Derek BLADES November 6th, 2009 6:20am

Then a sad post from JEZ explaining his pain but then excoriating TOM D ,when probably we all have similar worries ,that is what the bnp has done to us -got us fighting amongst ourselves instead of trying to find our own solutions within our democratic system .Jez do you really want the klu klux clan here or those like david irving influencing our politics ?I suspect you just want a decent British way of life with sensible policies ,so we need to pressure our democratic parties to see that change is needed and I think they are beginning to get the message now .

Jez

Come on then phil.

What's your answer to the current problems (or things that actually are not problems in your opinion)

No 'get out of jail' card for you either eg. leaving for the political party's. They're on with lining their pockets/themselves up with positions of power within an EU superstate.

Come on then. What do you suggest?

Wilhelm

A friend of mine who's in his late 50s said to me that he's quite looking forward to death because he doesnt want to live in a third world country slum. Fact.

Wilhelm

Either the English people vote for the lib lab con

Who brought us the EUSSR, the third world invasion, ilegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Or the UKIP or the BNP who didnt.

Easy choice isnt it ?

Augustus

Derek BLADES, Nov.6th 6.20am -

Isn't the question of EU membership really a simple one?
A common European economic policy beween member states is fine, but do we want a common European political, judicial and administrative leviathon to rule over us? As far as I am concerned, and I suspect many people, the answer to the former is yes. But the answer to the latter is definitely no. It's really that simple. But, you might say, that it isn't that simple. That global power structures are changing etc. etc. Or climate change can't be tackled on a national level. Or the continent needs a big voice against China, and India, and the USA. Or without the EU umbrella we in Britain will be reduced to the status of a fossilized relic in a couple of decades. Many Europhiles have said similar things in support of the EUSSR. My only response is to say that I have more trust in the goodness of people generally than I would ever have in world powerhouses.

just Louise

Writes Derek:
"Membership of the EU is exactly the kind of complicated mater where representative democracy comes into its own. We leave the decision to those who have access to all the pros and cons and the time to consider them in a balanced way. I see that David Cameron has apparently done this and concluded that leaving the EU is not a viable option for this country. He is right and Ms Phillips is wrong."

Bit dangerous to "put your trust in princes" like that, Derek. It can lead all of us right down the road to serfdom. Remember how we put our trust in Ted Heath when he told us we were signing up for a Common Market? Or Teflon Tony when he assured us that Iraq had WMDs?

Jez

Thanks for feeling my pain phil.

"Jez do you really want the klu klux clan here?"

No.

"or those like david irving influencing our politics ?"

No. His conclusions on the Gas Chambers (now retracted?) I think are/were absolutely scandalous. Lots of other things i have looked into also, i would like to debate (his take on the Hitler/Horthy exchange 1944 etc, etc)

"(you/Jez) want a decent British way of life with sensible policies"

Yes. We will not get these from Lib/Lab/Con i think.

"so we need to pressure our democratic parties to see that change is needed"

I agree, this has been made possible by the BNP getting 1,000,000 votes.

What do we do?

phil, you need to come out with what you think will help the country.

Here's mine; 5 yr freeze of immigration- with UK referendum then for this lifting. A blanket ban on any more Mosques until i can build a church in Saudi Arabia. Ban on mass people movements within EU regard to work. Stregnthen trade with EU partners over China, Strengthen independance of states within the EU regarding internal politics, Vito on fighting wars on behalf of any EU partners (eg if clowns like Georgia get in), Israel in to EU, Turkey; no chance. Troops out of Afghanistan with unlimeted aid / air force / satellite resources to whatever Western backed outfit we've got in there, buy afghan heroin and use it all for health care.

To start with.

(vote for me)

Dave M

There is another, pragamatic angle to view it from. The simple fact remains if Cameron were to pull out of Europe now, he could isolate his country. Realistically speaking, Britain no longer has the industrial economic might to just go its own way and be independent. It seems far more logical to wait it out and see how the E.U. collectively gets along before other E.U. members start to rebel. I mean, if you're going to opt out it's far easier to opt out with other states and not in isolation.
Italy is is a case in point. Italy has already being dictated to over the use of crosses in schools and Italians are understandably furious. This is really an attack on Italian culture since the times of Constantine. It's not so much a religious issue as a cultural issue and it reveals the E.U. ideology for what it is. That is, the E.U. simply wants to turn us all into semi American States without protecting the cultural, unique identities of Europeans. More than likely it also aspires to incorporate Islam into the system, despite the fact Europe is not the Middle East.
My bet is the E.U. sooner or later will make a mistake and some State or other will pull out. Then will be a good time for other states to pull out as well.
For now, however, I think the Tories are taking the right path without allowing their party to be pulled apart by in-fighting.

workie ticket

Derek BLADES @ 6:20am
"Referenda are not a very British thing nor are they necessarily very democratic"

.and neither is rule from Brussels but you seem happy enough with that. a little un-British referendum is surely a small thing to concede to those with a contrary opinion to yourself.

"In Britain we elect our MPs to represent our views and, if they don't do so to our satisfaction, we have a chance to kick them out every four years or so"

..except they dont represent us do they? Liebour's manifesto promised a referendum (no semantics please on Constitution or Treaty) The Tories offered a 'cast iron' referendum but have reneged. the Libdems of course are just way too sophisticated to do something as crass as backing Britain. You have the solution though - vote for anyone but the big 3.

"The problem with a referendum is in phrasing the question. Membership of the EU is not a yes and no issue"

Who says there should be 1 question? Two would sort it out. In/out or renegotiate/re-examine everything that has not been put to the people. The only problem I foresee is a political class immune to the hard work this will entail.

The Irish. Vote No...big economic crisis..Brussels says no money if you vore No....Irish vote yes...

" We leave the decision to those who have access to all the pros and cons"

In my experience politicians and civil servants have a very very poor grasp of the workings and laws of Brussels. Ive worked in places where decisions are made and the bill comes in a year later with civil servants being unaware of the cost implications. Minister generally had only a tenuous grasp of the byzantine workings in the Justice Lipsius building. I remember the Commission in one of their rare attacks of conscience appealing to the Brits to keep an eye on the French and Spanish in various places as they 'negotiated' fishing deals in African an other capitals under the EU banner.

The problem with wanting to educate the public about Europe is that you would get an even bigger anti vote once the corruption, undemocratic practices, and rule bendings (hello Romania and Bulgaria) were better known. I believe thats why the likes of Straw bleat on about publicising Europe without actually doing anything about it.

Simon Denis

Alas, but this is nonsense. Whilst heartily concuring with any amount of obloquy directed towards Brussels, it strikes me as the epitome of injustice to attack Mr Cameron in this way. His promise, if you recall, was to hold a referendum on the unratified treaty. Now that it has been ratified a great skein of legal considerations makes any such manoeuvre irrelevant. He did the statesmanlike thing in publicising his recognition of this fact, rather than squirming for months on end and losing a hard won reputation for realism and decisiveness. It is Brown who signed the deal; it is Brown who sold out British democracy; it is Brown who betrayed the electorate. That betrayal being accomplished, we are obliged, for the time being, to live with it. Give Mr Cameron his due for carrying the Tory party over those rapids which have destroyed it at the polls three times in succession. Vote for him in preference to the real villain of the piece, Brown. Trust - and voting for someone always involves trust - that he will follow the conservative instinct to defend the interests of this country once he has the power to do so. The alternative offered here seems to me a counsel of despair.

John Thomas

Some of the posters here do make some interesting points: That it was Heath, more than anyone, who got us into the EU mess; That in time the EU may well implode, like others (USSR) before it; The the real "little Englanders" are those who think we are too small to be on our own (what about Switzerland?); That our best place is with "the Anglosphere" (good phrase) and hat the Commonwealth was betrayed cruelly. Heath spoke of the horror of war (he'd been in WWII) causing him to look to the idea of the EU as the way to end wars - that is just like how the pacifism that followed WWI (Vera Brittain, etc.) produced the appeasement that encouraged the rise of Hitler. I knew someone once, 1980s, who was convinced the EU would eventually cause a new war, in Europe - he seems more right, now, than when he expressed this view. Maybe military resistance will be our only way of getting out of the EU.

Dave M

"That said, my name is Tom Durkin i live and work in London and also a student at LSE. If anyone would like to find me to try and persuade me of the merits of the BNP I am on campus everyday."

You have to bear in mind they're a small, populist party. They started out as a very extremist party with many dodgy aspects, so to speak, but have had to modernise and change recently. This is due to an influx of ex-Old Labour people, former Conservatives and so on. Due to the fact the main parties won't consider the effects of massive immigration on democracy and western values, the B.N.P. has grown as a result in membership. However, you have to consider how small it is in the face of globalisation politics and the current ideology of profit and mass movement/cheap labour.
I think the days of a small bunch of shaven headed fanatics have gone and the new B.N.P., as I say, has some former Tory and Labour voters. I know of many ex Tories who now vote B.N.P..
I think the only equivalent I can give you is the Nation Party in the U.S.A. that Muhammad Ali joined. When Ali joined it was very extreme and radical but actually became far more peaceful after the death of Elijah Muhammad when it split apart into two factions. Ali joined the more peaceful faction and has also these days become a very moderate muslim with many Chriatian and Jewish friends.

just Louise

Here's some breaking news to cheer us all up! The Brown Government has appointed a "hardcore Islamist" - who believes passionately in the islamification of society, our society, albeit not by violent means - to turn hotter headed fellow-Islamists against calls for violence.

That, and Britain's craven abstention (along with most of the EU)during yesterday's UN General Assembly vote on the Goldstone Report is further evidence that the "leaders" of this once great nation have taken leave of their senses.
Australia and NZ were among the 18 countries with the moral compass and moral courage to vote against it the stitch up of existentially threatened Israel. Well done, those valiant states, daughter nations so much wiser than their mother.

gareth

We should stick with the commonwealth - Britain is not an ordinary little country - half the world speaks our language.
NZ used to have the highest standard of living in the world - until we sold them down the river for the EU - and stopped importing their excellent goods. We can increase trade tomorrow easily with Australia, NZ, SA, Canada , USA, Singapore etc......and build ships to carry the trade - it was our way of life before and can be again.

phil

Jez
November 6th, 2009 1:40pm -----Years ago when as a student we all postured with our new knowledge ,one of my friends quoted some legal case with great authority AS HE ALWAYS DID and this time I knew he was wrong and I blurted it out in front of a few of us -he went red in the face and exclaimed "I am not the Pope you know .not infallible"-I feel the same when you ask me what my conclusions are -truly it is difficult and much of what you say I cannot argue with .its probably what most of us want and I think can achieve but please not with the bnp ,they are pandering to prejudice and pain and in any case they could not do what they suggest -i.e pay immigrants to leave !!!how many do you think will volunteer -only the goodies -whites only-- 'I am sure you do not agree to that ,there is far too much soul in your writing for that -I think I will vote for you !!LIB/LAB/CON? -you do have some policies !
What I do find astonishing here is that unlike you ,most posters just ignore what others write and press on with their own opinions -I write a lot as you no doubt will have noticed and hardly anyone bothers to agree or criticise my points (chance for wilhelm again:)- If we cannot even debate here what chance have we got of progress in our society ?Well any how ,hope you will feel better soon ,some people do care .

C. Gee

Simon Denis:
Trust to Cameron's conservative instincts? His instincts are for self-preservation and self-promotion. His instincts are to hug-a-hoodie. He has a pash on Obama. He is treacle.
I counsel the British public to despair.
Some comfort though. There will be no immediate threat to the variety of ethnic restaurants which make Brits feel so good about themselves and which make the whole diversity and joining thing worthwhile.

Jez

Nice one phil!

I'll hopefully be feeling better soon (after a right stinker of a day at work)- it's a belated Bonfire night round' the local cricket club with the family and a few (or more)medicinal glasses of Red wine! ;)

All the best and have a good weekend.

Frank P

Just thought I'd clock up your latest century Melanie and ask you to kindly post on Fort Hood; the elephants are running uphill and the birds flying inland. Methinks they have read the signs, even if you blog colleagues happily tap away on the utterances of Alastair Darlink, while sipping heir shampoo for the drain.

paulg

You are wrong! David Cameron can promise a white Christmas and his promise is good so long as he has no power. Without power there is nothing to decide.

The Sovereignty Act and the Bill of Rights are an absolute guarantee of the sovereignty of the United Kingdom. It is precisely because we have not had these statutory mechanisms that so much power has leeched to the E.U.

The power of the E.U is illusionary and is based on ideals; These Acts are based on actual power, enforceable power.

David Cameron is positioning the U.K to outline an alternative vision of the European Union, one that see authority and power flow upwards not downwards as the present model dictates. A European Union that the majority of the peoples of Europe want, not this static bureaucratic outdated vision of Europe.

We must trust him or, I’ll personally provide the rope we’ll hang em all with.

Herbert Thornton

Andre – I am encouraged to see that you are among those who recognize the over-riding importance of the issue of Islam.

On the other hand I do believe that your impression of the BNP as being primarily “holocaust deniers, anti-Semites and racists” is one that now has only a tenuous basis and that is virtually entirely out of date. People with extremist views of that sort gravitate to other organizations like the National Front.

It is far more accurate to say that the BNP is now primarily concerned with the issue of Islamic immigration, with the issue of Britain’s loss of sovereignty to the E.U. coming close behind it. It is of course also concerned with the problem of all other categories of immigration, but that is not based racism but on the simple fact that Britain is already very much overcrowded.

This is why the BNP appeal more and more to a broad spectrum of people who are at heart fundamentally decent and who want to stop and reverse the obvious undermining and deterioration of their country’s make-up.

You have obviously not yet been converted to side, at least for the next general election or two, with the BNP, nor have other good people like Melanie and Phil.

But Britain desperately needs to move in a better direction and it is my earnest hope that you, they and others will, before long, be persuaded that the policies of the BNP are better than any of the other sad alternatives.

johnrobert

BNP!!

Verity

Pete Adler, so you think that anyone with an opposing view to your own is a (to use an incredibly dated term) Little Englander.

Presumably, an expansive, suave, cosmopolitan person like yourself is at home in many parts of the world. How many languages do you speak?

I ask because someone who would be, by your arcane definition, a "little Englander" is MEP and journalist Daniel Hannan. He speaks fluent French and Spanish. He was born in Peru.

Trite little knee-jerk insults gang aft agley, do they not?

southwood

I passionately want out of Europe. UKIP need to get real, to push their agenda harder, no compromise.
BTW I feel some little Englanders don't just want rid of the EU but also their Celtic neighbours judging by names like English Defence League and the use of English flags. Well, if you don't want our support, so be it but Europe loves your aid in its divide and conquer agenda.

Wilhem

''do you really want the klu klux clan here ''

Get with the programme phil, the whole of the liebour cabinet were communists, marxists, trots, leninists, CNDers, one world government types in the 1970s.

Although it would be nice to have Dixie as a national anthem, its a very uplifting tune, since the Confederacy went out of business, shame.

Suffolkbor

Herbert Thornton:

What is your opinion of Lee John Barnes?

Paulg:

I do hope that you have a reliable source of hemp available to you !

Has anyone noticed that David Cameron bears more than a passing resemblance to Commander Data from Star Trek The Next Generation?

Herbert Thornton

Suffolkbor –

I‘m unclear where you have in mind an answer to you question would lead – it seems, in some ways, rather like asking me what my opinion is of Suffolkbor, even though I’ve never met you.

Mr. Barnes is, I understand, a lawyer – a Barrister, I think, and not a Solicitor, though I may be mistaken about that. In any case, both those branches of the British legal professions have high standards. I have no doubt that Mr. Barnes legal skills are of considerable use to the Party – and anything that helps the Party (although I am not myself a member of it) is, in my opinion, to be welcomed.

Wilhelm

''Years ago when as a student we all postured with our new knowledge ,one of my friends quoted some legal case with great authority and this time I knew he was wrong and I blurted it out in front of a few of us -he went red in the
face and exclaimed "I am not the Pope you know. ''

So whats your point, phil ?

LOL

Verity.
Hannan is an ideal replacement for Brown. Something does not go his way and he has thrown his toys out of the pram and gone off in a sulk.
WOW....that really is the kind of stuff we need as our next PM.
DO GET A GRIP GIRL AND KEEP UP!!
While you have been waffling on for years the Conservatives are still ahead.

Craven

Sixty-three per cent.
"Almost two thirds of the public would like to have a referendum on re negotiating the UK's relationship with the EU"
That is exactly what David Cameron said he IS going to do if elected.So why would the Tories be concerned?
Please STOP listening to the media and listen to what comes out of the mouth of Cameron.
The media..just like the entire Labour movement DO NOT want the Tories in power because the Tories are bright enough to find where Labour have miserably and utterly failed.We only know the miserable failures that we have been told about...What lies beneath?
Remember for the duration of this dismal Labour government the media have been totally complicit!What does it tell you of their agreement with Labour in condemning Cameron for something he has NO power to address at present.
Once in power he can behave the way we all want him to WITHOUT all the bull that would be thrown his way.
The French AND sadly Hannan KNOW the British support for the EU gravy train is over and out.The ones with the most to lose will be the LOUDEST objecters to ANY threat to their nice cosy world.
What would be the point of Hannan if we pulled out? NIL!
Rationanal is needed.
THINK..work it out.Listen to Cameron's speech again with the idea he WILL pull us out, instead of listening for him to promise a referendum then 'going deaf'as soon as he doesn't.
Think of all the parties involved who will also be listening to him...he has to keep both sweet.
There were CLEAR indicators of his intention.

Merlyn

How much do we each pay the EU in tax?
I'm in the mood for a quiet revolution a la Ghandi, where we refuse to pay that precise amount.

Augustus

It's patently true that the people of Britain have had their hands tied over the Lisbon Treaty, due to the disgraceful blend of feebleness and disloyalty of the Labour Government. But it is difficult to see how David Cameron can now somehow stop the EU powers from drifting further into areas of UK domestic laws. On the one hand he won't seek a 'bust-up', but on the other he wants to negotiate a return of British opt-outs. Presumably a series of simple opt-outs, then a series of not-so-simple opt-outs, and then one or more complete opt-out(s). And all wrapped in a 'sovereignty Bill'.
And that's presuming he wins the election. I can't help agreeing with Melanie. All a bit of a pointless gesture from beginning to end.

John

Time for a second 1776 - this time in Britain itself.

Tom Durkin

hi all,

Besides the condescending 'I think I know everything because I am a student' speech it is good to hear people’s responses.

I am actually from Eltham, which is where Stephen Lawrence was killed many years ago, and down the road from Welling where there has been considerable BNP/NF presence over the years. They are 'skinheads', they aren't just anti-Islam, they are white-supremacists and no one knows how far they might go once holding the levers of power. You do not have to believe it 'a liberal lefty multicultural utopia' to oppose them and their ideas.

To clarify my view, I can see no grounds for condemning UKIP who have political aims. The BNP however is a foul organization with racial aims, and any claims of reform are totally bogus.

They use the sort of PR that gets derided from the main parties, rightly so. I implore people to open their eyes on the BNP. I would also recommend a crash course in Islamic culture for some people on these blogs, as on this issue, like multiculturalism in general, there is a middle ground. It is not a choice between open borders and cultural submission, and forced ejection of people based on their religion/race.

I firmly stand by my statement of shame on anyone supporting the BNP. If they came to power you can be in no doubt that you would have blood on your hands, the people of the UK will not let voters sleepwalk into hell and then claim innocence after the fact.

phil

AUGUSTUS ".On the one hand he won't seek a 'bust-up', but on the other he wants to negotiate a return of British opt-outs. " Why so negative? at least DC is trying to do something-I do not want to be under the yoke of Europe but I also believe we have to take part in much of what it stands for -commerce ,,open borders ,financial cooperation etc -what is your plan to avoid isolation and the descent into oblivion ?.

phil

Wilhelm
November 7th, 2009 4:43am -go to bed man ,you are suffering from lack of sleep and oxygen to the brain. Your preoccupation with me is putting you on a path to sensory deprivation -You are as usual the only one who does not understand what I said :)

Augustus

Tom Durkin - Ah yes, the BNP! A mixture of so much absurdity with so much penetration. Such violent ambition, and such fanaticism, with so much regard for national humanity and justice. Most extraordinary characters.

biggestaspidistra

@TD:"I implore people to open their eyes on the BNP."
I think you'd probably prefer people to close their eyes to the BNP and you may well have a point. But when it becomes a concerted and uniform chorus from the media and political elite naturally we smell a rat and become a little curious.

We already have blood on our hands, courtesy of New Labour, so that cuts no ice.

Can you tell us more about the middle ground on Islam please Tom? And the middle ground on multiculturalsim?

Derek BLADES

Wilhelm,November 7th,asks "So whats your point, phil ?

I gather from earlier posts that phil suffers boxing-related brain damage and for that reason I have refrained from commenting on his posts. I do, however, have one suggestion for him.

He currently writes in a stream-of-consciousness style without proper punctuation. He might well find that the discipline required to follow the normal rules of grammar would help him to organise his thoughts in a rational way. He might then find the debating partners that he apparently craves.

phil

Derek BLADES perhaps the only thing you do right in this world is punctuate ,but hell would freeze over before I wished to have anything to do with you -stick to wilhelm he is more on your mental level .,and that is no doubt without having entered a boxing ring --spelling ok?

Earlier this week I acknowledged that you had at last posted something sensible -my mistake ,obviously it must have been an impostor ,but why they used your name I cannot think .

Augustus

phil - DC may indeed be 'trying to do something', so let's just say he has become a hostage to misfortune now that the constitutional treaty has been ratified. The EU will now be honed and streamlined into a bona fide superstate. I have always thought that a common economic integration of Europe,
which is what I believe I voted for in 1975, is fine. But the socio-political superstate that it has become, and which will only continue unabated, smells of corruption, self-serving, and power-mongering. A behemoth serving half a billion, and yet representing no one. Guardians of states with no one empowered to guard the guardians. People like that have free rein. I'm sure it's not just the English who feel that way. Conservatives
(small c) all over Europe feel the same. Having said all that, I don't think the Conservative party really has any negotiating power left. That was really my original point.

Stephen Rothbart

I am normally with Melanie 95%. But here I don't see what Cameron's options are.

To go and say what exactly? If he says he will withdraw from the EU, his opponents will make that the one election issue and that will dominate the debate for the election, taking their failings out of the picture.

Let the Tories get in power first and then they can decide what to do with the EU based upon rational discussions, using the media and their position as the Government in power, to lead.

I was asked by an American a few days ago if the Tories will really win the next election.

I said it was their's to lose, if the EU debate is going to make them look divided.

Sadly the emotional response of many on the Tory right may actually condemn them to lose again, leaving a Labour/Lib Dem coalition in power.

After so many years in the wilderness, it is time the Party grew up and put the rest of the country first.

Get these freeloading Europhiles out of power first, then have an internal debate about how to deal with Europe, and then try to sell it, by referendum, to the voters.

That is the way forward, not an outright commitment, from the sidelines, to leave the EU, when people are worried about their jobs and have no trust in their leaders.

Augustus

Both Vidkun Quisling and Nidal Malik Hasan were majors, and both betrayed their country. Now sources in east jerusalem are saying that many resident Arabs their are jubilant that Hasan has mowed down his fellow soldiers. They say he should admired because he stood up for Muslims overseas, and that his anger was understandable against US 'aggression' overseas. and sources also say that the reaction is overwhelmingly in favour of the shooter there too. He would clearly be given a hero's welcome there. This is the religion of peace?

Samantha Jones

How has this travesty been allowed to happen? The rules of the Magna Carta distinctly say that Parliament cannot, under the Bill of Rights from 1688, cede ANY powers to foreign bodies.
It is NOT theirs to cede - it is OURS.
So what is going to be done about this act of treason because i'm sick of MPs pretending they care, when they've all signed away our country illegally.
They should be in jail not governmnet.

Wilhelm

phil
November 7th, 2009 6:28pm

'' I cannot think ''.

Nuff said.

Herbert Thornton

I see that Tom Durkin writes –

“I am actually from Eltham, which is where Stephen Lawrence was killed many years ago, and down the road from Welling where there has been considerable BNP/NF presence over the years. They are 'skinheads', they aren't just anti-Islam, they are white-supremacists and no one knows how far they might go once holding the levers of power. You do not have to believe it 'a liberal lefty multicultural utopia' to oppose them and their ideas.”

Sadly, that amounts to inflammatory rhetoric, in several respects. Mr Durkin refers to poor Stephen Lawrence’s murder and then in the very same sentence tries to smear the BNP by implying association with the National Front. Then, continuing his attempt to smear, he uses the word ‘skinheads’, itself a term of abuse, at least so far as he is concerned, and declares that no-one knows how far “they” may go.

I suggest that Mr Durkin should leave the sheltered environment of Eltham for a while and acquaint himself with some of the Muslim areas in cities outside London, especially in the North of England. And since he uses the example of Stephen Lawrence, it seems fair for me to respond in the same vein by saying that more recently than the murder of Stephen Lawrence, a white teenager was murdered by Muslim thugs only a mile or so from where one of my own relatives lives, in Farnworth. I would advise him however, if venturing into one of the no-go areas, to be aware that he risks being stoned or stabbed by the kind of extremists who frenziedly demand – loudly and in public that anyone who “insults” their prophet be beheaded. If he does venture in alone and he is is threatened, he might be glad of a bodyguard, whether they be National Front skinheads or respectable BNP members.

To paraphrase Mr. Durkin himself – you do not have to be a white, supremacist skinhead to believe is entirely reasonable common sense to oppose the presence in Britain of huge numbers of potential and actual Muslim terrorists and presence of illegal immigrants many of whom have a criminal past.

Jez

@ Tom Durkin.

Your either in or out of this nightmare.

Once you have kids, unfortunately (pretty severely) you're mugged 'to sh*t' by reality.

I won't speak with forked tongue.

Lots of terrible things have happened since 1993.

That does not though in any way diminish the outrageous injustice that Steven Lawrence's family have had to endure Tom.

You're fighting for what you think is right.

So am I.

Verity

What Samantha Jones said.

just Louise

Both Tom D. and Herbert make powerful points.
Herbert, I described on another recent Melanie thread how a young Hindu post-grad of my acquaintance had been gratuitously beaten up by Muslim thugs who encountered him in a side street in a little market town (of all places!) - just for the crime of being Hindu. It's been many years since I was in his Midlands hometown, but he told me that there are entire streets there that non-Muslims walk at their peril.
The major parties are either in denial about this state of affairs, or muzzle public ventilation of it via the label "racist". In numerous cases - perhaps the majority - the label is a libel, as you've indicated.
It's not only "indigenous" Brits who want to claim this country back; the burgeoning demographic and environmental menace affects people of all ethnicities who love this country that we call Home. So many people of "immigrant stock" descend from people who came to this country precisely because of its culture and values: its liberalism, essential decency, fair play, justice system, and comparative gender equality. They have an equal stake in this country's future, and they are as sickened as anybody by its betrayal by the morally bankrupt political classes who have sold it out to Brussels bureaucracy and who appear unfazed at the prospect of a concrete jungle where there is standing room only, the rampant crime and cynicism overcrowding brings, and the looming spectre of a governance straight out of the Dark Ages. (I always think it's no accident that some of the Free World's loudest voices against mass Muslim immigration have been and are female - like Oriana Fallaci, the two Brigittes (Bardot & Gabriel) and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - because women are among those with most to lose.)
As far as I can see, so long as we remain in the EU we will have to suffer more of the same - for having lost control of our borders we can't decide who should settle here.
We need a party that is not afraid to put the issue of mass immigration and its consequences at the forefront of debate and to campaign on a platform of withdrawal from a destructive tyranny which benefits faceless tinpot Diktators in the shape of bureaucrats and superannuated politicians rather than We, The People!
That party can never be the BNP, with the Blut und Ehre outlook that shuts out (let's face it, it does) ethnic minorities; with all its faults, there's surely only one choice for us all at present - and that's UKIP.
As a paid-up member of "Call me Dave"'s party it pains me to say it - but I think it's true.

Bill

gareth
November 6th, 2009 3:03pm
"We should stick with the commonwealth - Britain is not an ordinary little country - half the world speaks our language.
NZ used to have the highest standard of living in the world - until we sold them down the river for the EU - and stopped importing their excellent goods. We can increase trade tomorrow easily with Australia, NZ, SA, Canada , USA, Singapore etc......and build ships to carry the trade - it was our way of life before and can be again."

Sorry Gareth, I'm a Kiwi and that ship has sailed.

As someone born between VE and VJ Days, I recall well those days . . . Vauxhalls and Velocettes, BSAs and Bedfords. And ten pound immigrants.

But, as you say, Britain sold us down the river. Up yours to the fellas who faced Rommel at El Alamein, bugger off to the Battle of Britain boys.

All so you could cosy up to the French and the Germans. The bloody Krauts for chrissake.

Anyway, as it turned out, best thing you ever did for us. If all was now sweetness and light between former enemies, then Japan could take Britain's place. And it did. Pretty soon, every second ship in the Waitemata Harbour was something Maru; and, guess what, they carried quality goods, a nice change.

New Zealand producers, for their part, had to get off their arses and chase markets . . . and do something about their own quality standards — we were selling to discerning customers now.

Taken all round, it's worked out well. Instead of being Britain's farm, shipping basic food in bulk, we're the world's farm, more and more aiming at the top end of the market.

As things stand, your bed has been made. Forget the Anglophone sphere; that's a non-runner. And it's not because of Britain joining Europe; pulling out of that madhouse won't change anything.

We don't need you. And we don't want you. And although no one will say it out loud, your loony immigration policies have killed any possibility of a deal.

Individually, OK. There's always space for skilled immigrants. But throw our lot in with Britain in some sort of formal arrangement? To quote Eliza Doolittle, Not bloody likely.

phil

Augustus thank you for your thoughts I mirror your worries about corruption and the waste of money ,but they ,for me , are the by products of a much more important entity and hopefully eventually will be reduced -we should be hundreds of millions cooperating in the search for a better world where we have a chance to improve collectively rather than remain suspicious and defensive .

As to our politicians I do also worry whether they say what they really believe or do what they think will get them the vote .I am more inclined towards Ken Clarke than DC as I believe he understands economics way beyonD any of his colleagues .

The referendum is not something I have ever thought is sensible and the reason is ,I do not trust my future to the whims of a public including myself who have so little knowledge of the crucial factors involved of making that decision. We elect a parliament who we trust to do their best (ok ha ha )to make informed decisions and hopefully come to the best decision based on rationale rather than the idea prevalent in many places that foreigners are idiots -they are not . For me the sporting chronicle in the back of someone's jeans are not the best help for deciding the future of our nation .Even here on these threads we read the demented views of some of the posters and I do not mean those that have a different view to me -sometimes they give me sport but I have no wish for our futures to be determined by them .I respect your views even if I do not always agree with them ,but that is what we are here for isn't it ?

Denis Cooper

Surely the point of the Tory party is to prevent the election of patriotic MPs of a right wing disposition?

Just as the point of the Labour party is to prevent the election of patriotic MPs of a left-wing disposition.

And should either of those two fall down on the job, the Liberal Democrats are there to prevent the election of patriotic MPs of any disposition.

Alfred of Wessex

Kenneth Clarke, when Chancellor of the Exchequer in John Major's Conservative government, wrote: "I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe" (International Review, 1996, Vol. 23, No 4).

With the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, his dream has become a reality. England is now a vassal province of a EU Empire (soon to become the Islamic-Socialist Caliphate of Eurabia thanks to the Euromed process).

We are now ruled by a collective Nebuchadnezzar in Brussels (the European Commission and the Council of Ministers), which generates 80% of our laws, rubber stamped by both the European "Parliament" (Congress of Peoples' Deputies would be a better description) and the Westminster Parliament.

These are then gold-plated by the Satraps (Senior Civil Servants) in Whitehall whose sympathies (loyalty for those who are members of the new secular freemasonry called Common Purpose) lie with Brussels. The same goes for all Senior Local Government officials, ACPO (the Police), and the BBC.

Ever since the Traitor Heath took us into the "Common Market" in 1973 the British people have been betrayed by the entire political, administrative and media elites of this country.

Since the election of the Cultural Marxists of NeueArbeit in 1997, the people of England have collectively been subjected to the political equivalent of being bent over a desk and gang-sodomized by the senior ranks of the above-mentioned elites.

And you have the nerve to suggest that the damage to our collective anus and lower intestine will somehow be repaired by voting for one of the parties responsible for betraying and violating us! God forbid!

To quote part of La Marseillaise:

What! Foreign cohorts
Would make law in our homes!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would strike down our proud warriors! (repeat)
Great God ! By chained hands
Our heads would bow under the yoke
Vile despots would become
The masters of our destinies!

phil

Alfred of Wessex who are you suggesting dr spock or darth vedar ? you could end up someone known as the blade and wilhelm as minister of justice :)

Baron Pipin II

The key problem we are facing lies in a new phenomenon that hasn’t attracted full attention yet. In the recent past the mainstream parties abandoned ideology as the key underpinning for their existence. This has, in part, led to the society to segment along a different set of ‘identifiers’ that the FPTP (first-past-the-post) voting system has been unable to either offer a home to, or to satisfy. To put it cruder: we are no longer left or right, Tory or Labour, in favour of private or public ownership. The alignments now form around new single issue ‘belief systems’ that seem to exhibit reasonable durability: climate change, Europe, multi versus uni culti, centralized versus devolved powers. The success of the single issue parties, and the inherent inability of the three mainstream parties to by and large accommodate the post-ideological shift furnishes ample evidence of the constraints that the FPTP voting system imposes. Those voters who genuinely switch alliance to any of the small parties that capture the new identifiers lack any representation, and feel frustrated and impotent. Worse still, many who abandon the mainstream parties do so not because they endorse the policies of the single issue parties. They move as a protest against their former ‘political homes’ that struggle to unite views that are irreconcilable. The problem gets compounded as all the three main parties broadly follow a single orientation. They are all, to a lesser or greater degree, pro-Europe, and in favour of the global warming creed, the multi-culti, and the centralization of powers.

Unless the economy bounces back mightily soon tranquilizing the pain of the expense scandal, the huge public debt, the two wars, and the Lisbon’s induced transfer of power to an even less democratic institution, it’s hard to see either the Tories or Labour getting a chance to form an administration on their own.

just Louise

Alfred, all too true, and absolutely distressing. We can clearly see now why NuLabour abolished the Treason Act, and why the traditional British history curriculum, which gave successive generations of children a clear sense of their heritage and identity, has been long since kaput.

phil

This mornings reading has much to admire from the eloquent piece by Louise who mirrors so much of my own thoughts ,to Herbert,s words to Tom even though much as I have always admired Herbert,s innate decency I cannot persuade him that the bnp should never be the vehicle for his expressions -Tom,s words along with those of Jez were expressions of the pain they feel in the circumstances we find ourselves in and should not be a cause for attack ,rather we must understand them

I found the picture of Griffin on a NF march with rage all over his face enough to tell me that the man has no place in the politics of our nation. We are all aware of the atrocities being carried out all over the world and that people do not walk in fear of vicars, priests and rabbis but that does not mean that every Muslim is our enemy ,they patently are not , and this for me is what the message of the bnp has brought upon us -normal everyday people fighting amongst ourselves instead of putting our heads together to try to find a solution .

Prior to 9/11 was the word Muslim on your lips every day ?Did Osama enhance their lives ,and abu hamza and his idiots ?-Rhetoric questions ! they have ruined the aspirations of so many immigrants and us along with them and the bnp are loving it
.
Militant Islam is the major problem in this world not the recession which we will overcome .The real need is to face up to what is causing it and for one it is not Israel and the Palestinians ,they are killing one another all over the globe with not an Israeli in sight ,any solution for those two beleaguered peoples will not be a blip on the landscape in the fight to eradicate the militancy .The bnp has stepped in as opportunists even suggesting that they support the Israelis when their support is unwelcome ,the massive majority of Jewish people want peace with the Muslims and a solution to the terrible consequences of the ongoing troubles and apart from the token Jew the bnp have found I doubt that they could produce even a fistful of members.

Do I have a solution ? yes i do .it is for the Muslim people to stand up and proclaim "not in my name "and march on London to peacefully emphasise that fact .Also to try to join in with the activities of the British people ,learn our language and customs and practice their religion quietly -they may get an enormous surprise at how quickly they will be accepted as friends and citizens .Have I said anything racist ? I sincerely hope not but if it is seen as such then I see little hope for any of us .

Derek BLADES

phil, November 7th, addressed the following witty reply to me:

"Derek BLADES perhaps the only thing you do right in this world is punctuate ,but hell would freeze over before I wished to have anything to do with you -stick to wilhelm he is more on your mental level .,and that is no doubt without having entered a boxing ring --spelling ok?"

Like your manners, your spelling is impeccable. I was grumbling about your poor grasp of grammar. Below is my suggestion for how you should have written this sentence. Notice that I make use of the full-stop. This is a helpful device for separating bits of text containing main verbs. You will also see that I have eliminated the spaces before the commas. In polite company the space comes after them. Please also note that my time is precious and this is the last time I will help to make your posts intelligible. Study this corrected version with care and try to apply these lessons in your future comments.

This is what “phil” should have written:

“Derek BLADES, perhaps the only thing you do right in this world is punctuate, but hell would freeze over before I wished to have anything to do with you. Stick to Wilhelm. He is more on your mental level and that is no doubt without having entered a boxing ring. Is my spelling OK?”

The reference to a boxing ring makes no sense as written but I have only promised to help with his grammar. Phil’s thought processes remain a mystery to me and to many others.

Herbert Thornton

Phil - You say - "Do I have a solution ? yes i do .it is for the Muslim people to stand up and proclaim "not in my name "and march on London to peacefully emphasise that fact."

That, alas is not a solution, Phil. Advocating that the Muslim population should do that falls either on deaf ears (in the case of the extremists) or in the case of the others, falls on ears that range from being disinclined to listen to being terrified to listen. I repeat – terrified - to listen.

If the Labour and Tory parties were to constantly call on Muslims to do what you advocate it would at least show that they were beginning to understand that there is a problem.

But the main parties remain deliberately silent. It is becoming more and more evident that they are utterly blind to the deterioration of British society and to the looming existential danger. Worse, in the case of the Labour Party, the evidence is that men like Gordon Brown and Jack Straw are eager to make the deterioration accelerate.

The BNP has evolved into a genuinely moderate party, yet the "arguments" of those who oppose the BNP continue to consist almost entirely of mindless abuse and insults.

Some people have begun to write of the possibility that as the situation worsens, a charismatic man will emerge who will form a new party altogether that will displace the BNP and be a virtual reincarnation of the Nazi Party.

If that happens people who have been throwing mindless abuse at the BNP will find their minds wonderfully employed in worrying instead about the New Nazis major public works program involving the construction of gas chambers. Or, as such shallow people are often inclined to do, will suddenly become eager to get employment as concentration camp guards.

Senior American

This is exactly the direction that America is headed in, too. I do believe it is part of the New World Order, something that we haven't heard about for sometime now, but it seems to be rearing its ugly head again.

Obama is currently taking us down the road of socialism with his horrendous health insurance bill, something that is being touted as helping 47m mericans, which in fact represents over 20m illegals that will eventually get amnesty and can remain in our country (a political move to get their vote). That leaves about 10% of the population without coverage -- a number representative of the poor that can't afford it along with the lazy ones that feel that government OWES it to them. In America, insurance is not a RIGHT but a privilege! But the government insists in "enabling" those to look to the government for everything, instead of getting off their lazy butts and helping themselves!!!!

Wilhelm

Picture the scene Phil.

You are having a dinner party, someone knocks on your door unannounced, wanders in, sits at your table, eats your dinner, insults your wife, children, your taste in wallpaper, your Abba record collection.

Then wanders upstairs to have a kip in your bed, then stays for the next 9 months without paying any rent.

Once he leaves, he puts a bomb in the cellar to blow up your house. Then he goes off his merry way.

Would you get a resentment ?

Think about it Phil.

phil

Herbert Thornton -Herbert my point was that it was a possible solution. I never said it would happen, that is a mere hope -

I suppose you read the blades joke -the last teacher that tried so hard with me was my woodwork master ,who said one day ."leave my wood alone and bring your comics son "-The good lord gave him a warning soon after when as his hobby was beekeeping ,one got up his trousers and you can imagine the rest ,no commas no full stops just a sting on his wilhelm .I suppose I should be pleased as whilst he is giving me the benefit of his grammar we are not getting his unpleasant political opinions

Wilhelm

'Have I said anything racist ?''

Only the other day, you called me a lederhosen wearing, country yokel, leaning over a wooden fence with a piece of straw in my gob, watching
a heard of cows go by, tinkling their cowbells
as they pass by.

Verity

Herbert Thornton, your comment amazes me. "It is becoming more and more evident that they are utterly blind to the deterioration of British society and to the looming existential danger."

What I have been saying for years has been insouciantly confirmed by the Neather report. The socialist government used mass immigration as a weapon against the British people. It was a deliberate assault on our country, our way of life and our Judeo-Christian roots.

This was done with great malice aforethought. Probably the wickedest betrayal in the history of the human race.

They even took care that if they got away with it with this generation, they wouldn't have to worry about the next generation as they have robbed them of their heritage and sense of who they are by removing history from the curriculum in favour of sex education and internet skills.

Neather seems to have thought all this a good idea and was surprised by the reaction to his revelations.

phil

Herbert I didn't want to take the spotlight away from the blade in my earlier post ,but I did want to say that if we are looking for a seriously charismatic man it certainly will not be Nick G ,and I need not worry about him associating himself with the nazis as he has no conviction for holocaust denial and Irving is past his sell by date now .lee barnes ?

The only top man I see at present is Vince Cable and he definitely does not fit into your worrying vision of our future .maybe in the January window the Tories can make a bid for him --Oh -I forgot to give the blade a thought maybe he is the man of the future ,but I rather think his future is in the past .,although we could appoint him overlord of the ministry of full stops and commas ,Brussels are thinking seriously of it as a new quango :):)

phil

Wilhelm
November 8th, 2009 5:26pm ---nah! I would have told him he had the wrong address and sent him to see you .

phil

Wilhelm
November 8th, 2009 5:47pm
willie I was flattering you !

Derek BLADES

Senior American, 8 November, writes "In America, insurance is not a RIGHT but a privilege!"

Hard to know what this means exactly. My car insurance is a privelege? No. It is something I have to buy each year in order to drive my car.

Perhaps SA means that health insurance is a privilege. That is an even more curious suggestion. Here in Europe we have accepted that citizens as a whole have the duty to support each other in times of sickness. Quite a nice idea in my view and I am delighted that President Obama looks like winning his battle against the insurance companies and types like Senile American.

America - welcome to the 20th century! (You will be admitted to the 21st when you stop your barbarous practice of judicial murder.)

Tusculum USA

Yes, it does look bleak for the individual citizen, with a gathering concentration of power in unchecked bueaucracies, just as it does in my USA, but often I find that turning to British sages of the past brings some well-needed balance and light...archaic spelling and all...

Something from 1646, by Samuel Bolton, at Westminster:

The Sinfulnes of Sin: Held Forth,
IN A SERMON PREACHED to THE Honorable the House of Commons, at Margaret’s Westminster,

Upon their late Solemn day of Humiliation,

March 25, 1646.

By Samuel Bolton, Minister of the Gospel

"And as we beg to be saved from spiritual sins, so we are confident it will be your endeavour to save us from all state and Common-wealth enormities.

Possibly there may be some doubts among many, whether there be clear rules laid down for the governing of the Church, and the regulating and reforming of the evils therein.

But none can be ignorant of plenty of rules, touching the administration of civill justice: we finde enough in the word, to bound the exorbitancy, and set banks to the pride and injustice of state. And not only such as are genreall, Isa.1:17 but such as are speciall and particular. I will name some.

We read there is to be no tyranny in the throne, Micah 3:1 to the 5.

Princes are not to rule as they please, but in judgement and equity, Isa. 32:1

Princes are not made for themselves, nor the Nation for them, but they for the nation, Ezek. 45: 7,8,9,.

We read there is to be no oppression in Courts. Courts of justice, and places of judgement should not be the Assemblies of violent men, Psal. 86:14 their end is not to draw forth men’s estates, but to relieve their troubles; not to be racks of men’s estates, but reliefs of men’s causes: judgement is not to be turned into wormwood, nor righteousnes into hemlock, Amos 6:12.

There is to be no corruption on the bench, Exod. 23:6,7,8. Levit. 19:15. Deut. 1:16, 17. Deut 16: 18, 19. Prov. 18:5.

There is to be no bribing at the barre, Amos 5: 12. Isa. 33:15. Job 15:32. 1 Sam. 8: 3. Psal. 26:10. Isa. 59:4.

There is to be no crying in the street, no extortion, oppression in justice one to another, Levit. 25:14. Jer. 30: 20. Ezek. 22:12. The Apostle sums up all in one rule, 1 Thes. 4:6. Let no man go beyond, or defraud his brother in any matter, because the Lord is the avenger, of all such.

And as you have made it your care to save us from some of these, so we are confident it will be no lesse your work to deliver us from the rest. That judgement may run down like water, and righteousnes as a mighty stream, Amos 5:24. And as God hath honoured you to lay the first stone of this great work, and to carry up the building to this height: so it shall be our prayers that you also may lay the roof upon it. That as it was said of Zerubabel, Zech. 4: 9. So it may be said of you: Your hands have laid the foundations of this house, and your hands shall also finish it."

Herbert Thornton

Verioty - That you & I think along similar lines doesn't amaze me because I think we do - or have I missed your point?

Herbert Thornton

Verity - I apologise for mis-spelling your nom de plume. Haven't yet had my mid-morning coffee.

Boris Rheinhart

I'm surprised everyone here argues for either 'in or out'. There is a third way that allows Britain all the benefits of the EU and none of the downside; being a member of the Agreement on the European Economic Area (EEA). Norway, now head-for-head the richest and most successful country in the world, is not a member of the EU but is a member of the EEA, which gives it all the benefits of trade and commerce as any actual EU member but is not subject to any of the legislation or federation nor makes or recives any financial contribution. This is of course what the old EEC was originally intended for and I don't know why this isnt banded about more as a way for Britain to go.

James

Seems to me Europe does a better job of running the UK than our own politicians.

Verity

Herbert Thornton, good morning, and I'm on my first breakfast tea!

Yes, indeed, we do think along very similar lines.

Verity

Derek Blades - "You will be admitted to the 21st when you stop your barbarous practice of judicial murder."

What an infantile remark. You don't think cancer should be excised? How very odd.

James says, "Seems to me Europe does a better job of running the UK than our own politicians." So you think the EHRA is a good idea, then?

Derek BLADES

Verity asks me "You don't think cancer should be excised? How very odd."

I have just had one excised and am all in favour of it. What does that have to do with judicial murder?

The United States is one of the few countries still maintaining this barbaric practice. Others include China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Sudan. Who was it said we can tell a man's character by the company he keeps?

Philo

"Verity", To be clear: you are likening human beings to cancerous cells?

phil

Tusculum USA something from 2009 too-

UNITED ,UNITED ,ROONEY, ROONEY -- seems to make more sense than the incredible mutterings of our illustrious verity----"What I have been saying for years has been insouciantly confirmed by the Neather report. The socialist government used mass immigration as a weapon against the British people. It was a deliberate assault on our country, our way of life and our Judeo-Christian roots.This was done with great malice aforethought. Probably the wickedest betrayal in the history of the human race."""

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I seem to remember hitlers invasion of Russia 1941 ,Pearl Harbour and the holocaust for starters ,more and more tosh is arriving these days on our threads ,but her fight with the blade is enthralling -I usually look for a worthy winner but this time two losers will bring a smile,and I need one .

Mark Solomon

It is utterly amazing the way the UK media - including people with whom I usually agree like Melanie - and people get worked up into a high lather about the latest bit of Euro-nonsense which is entirely meaningless and can be ignored (because all the other countries will ignore any part of it they do not like) yet the real abuses and scandals - the bottomless pit of welfare benefits dominating government spending; a third world health service; the unrecognised mortal threat of Islam are all far bigger threats to UK 'sovereignty' than the pretty useless Lisbon Treaty. The OTT language is quite laughable.

What UK sovereignty is there anyway in the real world out there, with a fully globalised world economy? Already outside the Euro, this latest recession has shown how dependent the UK is on outside events. What hope would there be for the country on its own, with blocs consisting of India, China, USA and 'Euroland'? What sort of patriotism is it to advocate such a ridiculously damaging strategy? Shared sovereignty in the EU is the only hope - yes, some reduction in independence in some areas, but punching way above our weight in most others and with a gang of partners behind us.

The Anglosphere doesn't work and has never worked ever since Imperial Preference was rejected by the Dominions over a century ago. Get real or die.

Mark Solomon

Oh and don't make me laugh with 'meaningful choices' being the BNP and UKIP - both parties of swivel eyed-fanatics, UKIP is the party of the only convicted fraudster elected representative, a single-issue bunch of little Englanders living in the past who would take this country to economic doom, while the BNP are fascists, with all that that implies - an ideology we fought against in WW2.

Far more sensible to vote for the Monster Raving Loonies than either of these parties. A vote for either of them is a closet vote for Labour, because that is Brown's only hope of a hung Parliament, that enough potential Tories are diverted by the siren voices of the BNP/UKIP.