Everything is now illuminated

David Lindsay

Not "the Jews". Those named. Those named were very rich, powerful, secretive and manipulative. They were working solely in the interest of a foreign government. And they used Gerald Ronson as their enforcer. Charming.

The "foreign government" bit is the point. It doesn't matter which foreign government it is. It's the principle. Eighty per cent of Tory MPs are members of CFI? The Tories are currently driven back to their shire heartlands. How is CFI representative of that?

Even leaving aside that the Tories are supposed to be a force moderating the whole process in the cause of (among other things) national sovereignty, just as Labour is supposed to be a force moderating the whole process in the cause of (among other things) peace.

John Standing

If you denounce White pride and Jewish pride, you are a liberal.
If you denounce white pride and antisemitism, you are a Jew.

Rebel Saint

Does anyone know when the program exposing the links between Labour & Stonewall is being broadcast?!

Or how about this for a shocker - Unions lobby Labour party.

Brian

When old age shall this generation waste,
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe
Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say’st,
“Beauty is truth, truth beauty,” - that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

Proletarian

Since Peter Oborne was educated at Sherborne (posh boarding school) College and Cambridge (toff-dominated) University then one might be forgiven for assuming that he may well have quite a few 'friends in high places', too - were it not for the fact that he writes for a rag so deep-down in the gutter that's it's popularly known as the 'Daily Fail', that is;)

Jason from AZ

Too bad you don't have an Obama in the UK. Now, there is one tough dude who could resist the evil Israeli lobby in Britain, just as he does AIPAC in the US.

Baron Pipin II

David at 11.25: listen, enough’s enough. You’ve said it once before, just take a cold shower, put your feet up, and if you have to talk, just talk to yourself for a while, please.

Watt Tyler

Didn't waste my time watching the programme, so can't comment on it.

On the other hand, the logic is plain. How succesful can we judge ANY Jewish lobby to be based on the evidence of our own eyes? The answer: not very. I think it was Charlie Wolf (on his much missed radio show) who once described conspiracy theories as cascading waves of crap (or something like that) but i understand what he meant by it: if we applied the next wave of conspiracy required in this case - that the institutions that the Jewish Lobby influence have to mask their support for Israel by fiercely opposing it in order to maintain their cover - then it gets very silly indeed.

Hawkeye

Great post Melanie.

Jonathan Hoffman has deconstructed the Oborne Dispatches program over at CiF Watch:

http://cifwatch.com/2009/11/16/inside-channel-4%E2%80%99s-conspiracy-factory/

Merlyn

When Dispatches broadcast secret footage from inside mosques of Imans inciting violence against the Jews & kaffirs, C4 were prosecuted for religious hate crimes. Now C4 broadcasts a program inciting hatred of the Jews will they likewise be prosecuted for religious hate crimes? If not, why not?

Ben Serrurier

I am no blind supporter of Israel wholesale, but still, can we please stop refering to Israel as "the Jews"? There are a good many Jews that don't give a flying F about the Israel lobby, and in fact much of the powerful Israel lobby's funds come from evangelical Christian organizations. So Ms. Phillips, please stop painting with such a broad brush, you limit the debate in doing so.

Merlyn

Part of the EU's working definition of antisemitism is the following;

"Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions."
Check out the rest at;
http://www.european-forum-on-antisemitism.org/working-definition-of-antisemitism/english/

S.J. Israel

You are right! I always wondered why the UK was so pro-Israel. I had my suspicions but couldn't find the elusive Jewish evidence. Thanks Oborne and channel 4 for exposing the all powerful Jewish lobby. Maybe now the UK media can freely criticize Israel without interruption of these meddling pesky all powerful Jews. It’s just disgusting how a small group of Jews has controlled the UK media to a point that they cannot say a kind word in favor of the Palestinians.

EDDIE

I found the Dispatches programme really quite scary because I have never realized just how facts can be so distorted by people who should have a duty to inform and educate and not to abuse their postition to propagate their own prejudices.
There are these organizations like the Board of deputies of British Jews portrayed as some sinister variation of the Elders of Zion when I personally know that they are simply a totally ineffective talking shop terrified of rocking the boat, therefore not likely therefore to organize atrocities.

Gil

David Lindsay, not content with spouting your outlandish rubbish on Harry's Place where you received a good trouncing, you come here to do the same.

You are one obsessed individual with the Jews.

just Louise

Well, of course, Melanie, the oil's where The Lobby gets its "financial muscle" (Oborne's words) from. With all that financial power and all that clout, you mark my words, The Lobby will ensure that the next Tory Government adopts Halakhah for the UK, St Paul's Cathedral will be turned into a showplace shul, there won't be any more "bad hair days" because British women will all be wearing sheitels ...
But, seriously ...
The programme harped so much on the BBC's decision not to broadcast the Gaza Appeal, but never actually ascribed that in so many words to The Lobby. Good reason for that, methinks: Oborne failed to find a "smoking gun" indicating that The Lobby had demanded that the Appeal wasn't broadcast. But, hey, he just went ahead and smeared The Lobby by implication anyway.
Jonathan Dimbleby, he who authored a pro-PLO book long before The Lobby complained about Jeremy Bowen, is now being "investigated" by a "bullied" Al Beeb for complaining about its caving in to pressure! Puh-leese! And did you notice how Oborne's voice changed to a sniping tone as he paraphrased The Lobby's complaints about that poor "bullied" impeccably objective reporter, Orla Guerin?!

paul

What a damp squib! A complete waste of an hour. Oborne had to admit that there is no conspiracy and nothing resembling one. That was his conclusion. The whole hour was innuendo and allegation. Recent evidence of this was Britains failure to vote with everybody else in the UN over the Goldstone report. Wheres the beef???

Becky

"Does anyone know when the program exposing the links between Labour & Stonewall is being broadcast?!"

Good point, Rebel Saint. Since it's been noted that Stonewall are deliberately transphobic then it's particularly interesting to note that NuLab Harriet Harman's Equality Bill has *for some reason* gone out of its way to leave transgendered people out of legal protection to safeguard out human rights - and (despite much lobbying on our part) we are the ONLY group that's been left out!

Charles

Melanie Philips, sounds embarrased that the Dispatches programme was informative and well made.

I for one, don't want people with allegiance toa foreign country in power.

The Tories should be investigated for this, and the Israel Lobby in Britain given it's rightful status as a foreign agent. AIPAC destroyed AMerica, we won't let that happen here

Daniel

I just love it! This "opposite is true" world that we live in. Lets be honest here, Bicom is an absolute joke! A gravy train. You are never going to influence a journo. Tremendous post Melenie, I needed a good laugh. PS - How do I contact the pro-Israel lobby?

tiki

By comparing the Arab lobby, with their blackmailing "Oil weapon" and their "5th column" spread all over the world, (burning down cities if things don't go their way),to the Jewish lobby, is compairing the power of th "EAGLE" to that of the "SPARROW". Compairing the "power" of 1 BILLION muslims(of which 50/60 million are in Europe) to 12 MILLION Jews (of which 1 1/2 million are in Europe)) shows something about the mindset of the "program maker", NOT...the "influencial Jewish Lobby"

david elder, australia

David Lindsay: don't get your knickers in a twist. The Truth is about to be revealed. The UN is going to use Copenhagen to set up a global authority to control our environmental and international problems. (The draft for this was hacked out of a computer - great to be kept informed.) Yes, the UN. The one with Libya heading up the human rights section. They will speak the truth to power. Not even the omnipresent Zionists can stop them. And then my theory will finally be appreciated. I have said for years that the Israelis caused global warming.

Haldane

It's strange how two people can watch the same documentary and come away with completely different takes on the programme.

What I gathered was that there is a Jewish lobby, well financed and well organised that fights very hard to promote the Israeli point of view,using any means at their disposal, and that in some extreme cases, they have accused those that do not agree with Israeli actions of being anti-semitic.

The programme claimed that various Jewish organisations had been successful in effecting change in government policy and in opposition attitudes and there was a strong inference that this had been achieved by donating massive sums to the parties concerned.

I was surprised to learn that a organisation (I can't remember the name) that purports to be British, is actually run from Israel and one wondered why - but no big deal.

solemnman

When things go wrong -it's not because bad decisions were made by inept people or-that there were too many variables to get things right or-that the enemy didn't cooperate enough or-that it was just plain bad luck.It's because there is some sinister entity,behind the scene,pulling the strings.A consensus is starting to emerge that THAT sinister entity is in fact"THE ELDERS"...and-THEY'RE AT IT AGAIN!!
Those who are resurrecting this idea are,in increasing numbers,crawling out of the wood-work and presenting themselves for what the truly are.

phil

I am glad I did keep my powder dry

(see Phil November 16th, 2009 9:43am .) on the and so thread

Having just watched the programme I think I saw the reincarnation of the late great Benny Hill,it certainly looked like him and sounded like him ,and if it had not been a serious assassination of both Jews and Israel it would have been equally hilarious .

There are many comments here from people who write better than me but I have to post my utter disgust at channel four rather than just oborne .it is they that should know better,he is just another in a long line of those that wish to harm the cause of Israel and from what he has said ,Jewish integrity .His efforts were so poor I doubt that any but the real extreme minds would take much notice .

I hate being called a British Jew ,I am in fact a BRITISH CITIZEN BORN OF JEWISH PARENTS , and totally patriotic as I am sure all of us are ,We sympathise with the state of Israel and speak in support of it where we think fit and criticise where we believe they go wrong .its normal mr oborne .,does he not sympathise with the commonwealth nations and many other of our allies ?.

I do not think I have ever seen a more distorted view of facts than this ,it might have been produced in a far off land more than seventy years ago .Did I really see rusbridger suggesting he had never seen anti-Semitism on the CIF ? does he not even read his daughters writing? Did I also see that ten million pounds had been given over eight years to Israeli supporting groups ,not even enough to fund a channel four executives salary! Did we see one pro Israeli utterance ?,of course not .balance ?,you must be joking ,well maybe he was .

Oborne turned out a succession of Jews known for their shall we say differing views ,one of which I knew as a young man and a silly one at that , rabbi Goldberg ,he certainly has not grown up , but for me the lie that showed the programme for what it was occurred when he said a vast number of our MP,S from all parties supported Israel and were its friends ,for what reason ? a few shekels rather than the belief that it represents democracy and decency in the ME,what a pathetic comment on both them and our nation .

Emotive scenes from Gaza and the Lebanon,none from Jerusalem or Tel Aviv ,,and the final pathetic attempt to be "fair " with the never to be forgotten close -"-I am not suggesting a conspiracy "-sorry mar Oborne you have even upstaged Judas ,I hope you earned enough because your hour in the limelight will be remembered as an hour of infamy .

Kojak

I saw the programme and it looked as if the makers sought to find a conspiracy or illegal lobbying activities but they couldn't find one. The final sentance of the programme concluded that they couldn't find a conspiracy despite the inference of the preceeding hour that there was one.

It did amuse me that Peter Obourn was at great pains not to say the words Jew or Jewish for the first 25 minutes although it was quite obvious who he was talking about. It added a bit of much needed tension to the programme - giving the impresion he was he avoiding the elephant in the room because they were just too powerful even to be mentioned.

Having said all that I was releaved Peter Obourn didn't fall into the trap of presenting Israel as a powerful bully acting without provocation - which is the predominant image that is portrayed.

Z Siddique

There are a lot of elephants in the room (world) i.e. why did we go to war in Iraq when there were no weapons of Mass destruction. Why is every one so concerned about Irans nuclear weapons when Israel already has them. Why does the British government not acknowledge the Apartheid regime that the Palestinians live under and how can Israel carry on stealing Palestinian land a get away with it.
It seams the world is not governed by logic and reason but buy vested interests. When a programme like Dispatches exposes this it is for the greater good, be it the Israeli lobby or any other lobby group.

Penny

I'm afraid I didn't watch it - I was out, shape-shifting with the Elders. They do so love to show off to David Icke.

It's fun, but I believe that if we all spent a little less time shape-shifting, and a little more time lobbying, perhaps we could actually get that giant claws project underway. Y'know, the one whereby the claws encircle the world and squeeze all the oil and minerals directly into massive funnels in Israeli ports? Then Peter really would have a story worth the telling!

Henry Sidgwick

The response here to Despatches is disingenuous. Look back a couple of months to the clamour raised about an alleged Islamist lobby subverting Great Britain.

Every government tries to influence other governments by whatever means. Friends of every government likewise. Those with most money tend to exert most influence. Israel and its friends are very effective at this game (as for example is Saudi Arabia). As Mr. Oborne said: no conspiracy.

Harry

Poor old Alan Rusbridger. I thought he was going to burst into tears when he complained that the Israeli Ambassador had been to see him. He stated that no other country had ever sent its ambassador to complain to him.

Well Mr Rusbridger, what other democracy do you villify on a regular basis?

R Mitchum

Given the record of patriotism, hard work, and charity which the Jews have brought to this country, I would rather have them lobbying behind the scenes that most of the characters who have sidled up to NuLabour - and no, I am not a Jew, but have experience of many acts of unselfish kindness which they usually do not publicise - a rare thing these days.

phil

I suppose I should,nt be too shocked .I just visited dispatches web site and lo and behold amongst numerous tributes to the programme I only found one from a lady called Deborah who was complaining /am I cynical ?or do you think that maybe the complainers have been moderated//rhetorical -what a disgusting lot they are

Alex Creel

Unfortunately dispatches failed to apply proper journalistic rigour to its hypothesis hence the unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence given by interviewees and blatantly manipulative focus on Israel's armed conflicts. A poor piece of journalism regardless of your standpoint.

Jack R

I've just bought some Israeli tomatoes.
Am I part of the Israel lobby?

Steve bronfman

Z siddique;

Please get your facts right (I suggest you start in a library), Iraq not only had weapons of mass destruction used them (gas and chemical weapons) on Iran and the Kurds.

Also, 98% of Palestinians live under the rule of the PA and Hamas, not Israel.

Non Muslims can't even visit Mecca how about you complain on a Saudi website about Muslim apartied?

steve

israel has nuclear weapons,well yes, and has not used them,
iran hankers for them, with the idea to obliterate, in their blind hatred... israel, thats why

not recognize palestinian apartheid...lol, the totally self induced version, due to the written intention to, yup! obliterate israel, you mean.

stealing lol, er! palestinian land :-)please siddique your killing me, stop stop :-)

world governed by er!, vested interests, well maybe some agreement there, if the abusing OIC have their way you mean :-) remind me just what is their vested interest?

or even down to compensating the er!destitute :-)arabians when the oil runs out.

Suneira

steve bronfman,

I suggestt you take your own advice, and read up, instead of giving a skewered one sided version of history. you said

"Iraq not only had weapons of mass destruction used them (gas and chemical weapons) on Iran and the Kurds"

That was not the point, don't obfuscate, the weapons that the US was looking for were not those saddam had already used, they had already been used. In the next post, i'm going to post links showing how right wing Israeli's and neo cons in america fabricated the evidence. Melanei philips was one of the few Brits cheering them on.

Besides, others in the region, (Israel, and Suadi arabia) have WOMD too. Iraq was attacked because the neocons fabricated the evidence in Israel, using the climate of fear after 9.11

you also said

"Non Muslims can't even visit Mecca how about you complain on a Saudi website about Muslim apartied?"

Mecca is a theocracy, it doesn't claim to be a democracy like Israel does. Saudi Arabia is not a democracy nor does it pretend to be. It is a religious theocracy and as such doesn't allow non Muslims in Mecca nor Medina. for over 14 centuries no non muslim has been allowed in either city. Nor is that about to change ever.

Besides, nobody has been displaced from Mecca that can claim the right of return to it. A combination of events led to the Palestinian diaspora situtation. Israel is not soley to blame for this, i'm aware, but the early Zionists did have a campaign of ethnic cleansing which they said was necessary at the time.

Israel should compensate the expelled Palestinians for this, or let them return.

and before you mention it, yes i do support compensation or the right of return for Jews who left the arab lands in the last century for fear of persecution.

J. Hughes

So we now know that many of our MPs are getting financial back-handers and all paid trips to Israel from Israeli organisations like the Conservative Friends of Israel and B.I.C.O.M.
I thank Peter Oborne for lifting the lid on this can of worms to the UK public.

Liz

"It seams (sic) the world is not governed by logic and reason but buy (sic) vested interests." You're quite right there Mr Siddique, and there's no bigger vested interest than oil, is there?

Akiva

So "Charles", basically what you are saying is that the democratic will of the electorate should be null and void if it revolves around key democratic allied countries? That parties like the Conservatives can't have an opinion on foreign policy?

This is all complete lunacy. The program was absolute trash, typical C4 affair really.

Disappointed

Peter Oborne is a good journalist but it was a very disappointing programme. The daftest thing was the fact that they implied all this secret lobbying, while admitting that they found almost all of it on public record searches - so how can it have been secret?

Wilhemina Bothwell

Maybe a lone voice crying in the wilderness, but it is a right and wise one...the others will discover this when too late.

Michael Booth

Suneira

Following your arguement through, then the Turks should hand back Constantinople to the Greeks, or at least compensate them for taking it back in 1453... doesn't all this 'handing back' get rather messy?

Johnnco

Fantastic!
Well done Melanie!
Has to be one of your best!

Risus Sardonicus

Perfect response to a baleful broadcast, Melanie.

The pink footed geese just flew over.

Suneira

Michael Booth,

you said

"Following your arguement through, then the Turks should hand back Constantinople to the Greeks, or at least compensate them for taking it back in 1453... doesn't all this 'handing back' get rather messy?"

No it doesn't. We're not talking about 1400's, we're talking of modern times. The UN was established for this purpose.

Since the dawn of time, wars and right of might by fighting, are what established right to land.

Since we (world) agreed to a central body (UN) to play a part in solving conflicts that have not been settled, thats what we should concentrate on in these times. Solving conflicts that have not yet been resolved.

New conflicts shouldn't be encouragaged, and any right to land/compensation should be negotiated not fought over.

Augustus

"...the Jews have all the oil."

They don't need it!

From Haaretz:
"an Israeli company has developed a method of generating electricy from road traffic. The system works by using generators implanted in the asphalt that create energy when cars drive over them. each generator produces 2,000 watts per hour which is stored in batteries alongside the road."

Clever, or What?

phil

J. Hughes
November 17th, 2009 2:03pm thank you for your useful contribution
"I thank Peter Oborne for lifting the lid on this can of worms to the UK public."------ no doubt he let you out so that you could see what a pack of ignorant nonsense it was .You do appear to be a man that knows things so how about an explanation of how the TUC funds the labour party ,something I think is quite normal and ok ,don't you ? I don't object to you funding the bnp if that is your cause and I do not ask you which house of prayer you attend so would you object to me telling you to mind your own business ,I will contribute to whom ever I like so long as it is legal .You are also free to read all the other stuff I have written about this matter too -its a lot nearer the truth than the propaganda from oborne .Have a nice day and all contributions gladly accepted .

La Cumparsita

Are we going to see a programme about CAABU (who in the past have sponsored Mingis Campbell inter alia) or the Palestine Solidarity Campaign & the latter’s influence on British Trades Unions – both Andy Gilchrist & Bob Crow are patrons of the PSC.

phil

Akiva
November 17th, 2009 2:23pm like a number of people similar to charles they have been here before and in his case many times and always with something unpleasant to say ,you will not reason with him ,that is not his game, try suneira ,I do not agree with some of what she says but she does at least put forward opinions that need answers ,and I think I have said enough today :)

Michael Schneemann

Uh, Melanie:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/17/pro-israel-lobby-peter-oborne

It's just a drop of freshwater in the anti-Semitic ocean, I suppose, but -

Maybe listen to Ben Serrurier? Not all Jews are Israel supporters, not all Israel supporters are lobbyists, and not all Guardianistas are anti-Semites.

AKUS

Bravo, Melanie!

boxermk

This whole "Israel Lobby" nonsense is such a joke -- and it scares me that people I know actually buy into it.

Yes, there is an Israel Lobby, just like there is a lobby for everything else.

But to think that the Israel Lobby in Britain -- one of the more pathetic, ineffective, marginalized lobbies that exists on the planet today -- can be accused of being a shadow government-within-a-government, shows the level of irrationality dominating popular thought.

It's not really a bad thing that this tripe aired on TV. It's unpleasant and disturbing -- but most of all it is ridiculous, and I think there are enough people who will realize this fact in their gut and their minds.

David Lindsay

We need a ballot line system, so that voters would be able to indicate that they were voting for a given candidate specifically as endorsed by a smaller party or other campaigning organisation. Those organisations might be trade unions, co-operatives, peace and disarmament movements, civil liberties groups, or environmental campaigns. Or they might be fighting for Crown and Commonwealth, for national sovereignty, for the countryside, for traditional family life, for the Armed Forces, or against expensive and socially disruptive wars with no British strategic interest at stake. Among numerous other possibilities. Including both Conservative Friends of Israel and Labour Friends of Israel.

The number of votes by ballot line would be recorded and published separately. If a candidate owed either success or failure to a particular campaigning organisation, whether national or local, then he would know it. And so would everyone else. Including the voter, who may not be altogether comfortable voting for a candidate endorsed by those dedicated to the overriding interest of a foreign state in general and of that state’s violently anti-British minority in particular. Nor for a party, such as the Tories now are, eighty per cent of whose sitting MPs are so endorsed, which is to say bought and paid for. How is that not treason?

The Tories have not always been the party of national sovereignty; in office, they never have been since the War. But they certainly see themselves as such now. Even before Blair, Labour’s record as the party of peace was patchy in practice; the Tories’ was at least as good. But it certainly sees itself as such in principle. However, the truth is that if we want a body of parliamentarians who will moderate the whole process as much in the cause of national sovereignty as in those such as family values, and as much in the cause of peace as in those such as social justice, then we are going to have to contrive and confect those parliamentarians for ourselves. The existing parties are worse than a waste of time.

Peter Oborne for Watford, against the ghastly Richard Harrington? It’s a thought…

Stephen Rothbart

Akiva, what Charles was actually saying, along with most Guardian readers and Osborne fans, is that no one can have an opinion if it's not theirs. Please pay attention.

Augustus

Gosh! What a failed anti-Israel PR stunt. But possibly didn't match Ch4's alternative
'Christmas message' and putting their money on Ahmadinejad in the red corner, against Her Majesty in the blue. Guess who won that one?

Front man Obourne busily darts hither and thither trying to make a case for Pro-Israeli wheeling and dealing in the UK. Big deal! Not to mention trying to trip up the Opposition in the process. Goodness me! ever since Israel's founding and subsequent struggle for survival
there's been lobbying with the powers that be. Because not even
the most extreme revisionist historian denies that after Israel accepted the 1947 UN partition resolution, the Arabs rejected it. And that immediately Israel declared itself an independent state, the Arab League declared 'Holy War' on it, and publicly announced their intention of driving the Jews into the sea.
Historical moments like that require a good lobby for support. What was it that the Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha, said at the time? "This will be a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades". Heady stuff! But equalled by the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini's pronouncement: "I declare a Holy War, my Moslem brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!"

And there's controversy over Israeli support? What a world!

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Michael Schneemann: "Not all Jews are Israel supporters, not all Israel supporters are lobbyists, and not all Guardianistas are anti-Semites."

Ah, but are all Lobbyists for Israel Jewish? And all Jewish Lobbyists, lobbyists for israel?

What is this Jew-lobbyist connection? Is it like an anti-semite Guardian connection?

P.

"In the next post, i'm going to post links showing how right wing Israeli's and neo cons in america fabricated the evidence."

Don't bother. Simply Googling "Iraq WMD" will give you a zillion sites "proving" that "there were no WMD". And yet more sites scoffing at how half of the American population still believe that there were WMD. Fancy!

Is it not amazing that people are often prepared to flirt with the idea that 911 was an "inside job", yet at the same time pour ridicule on the notion that a psychotic dictator (who was obsessed with demonstrating his military power, had built WMD and used them without conscience in the past, and who had spent ages delaying and obstructing UN weapons inspectors) might just have have a WMD program? Perhaps it would have been better to wait and see the WMDs in action (the current Western approach to Iran) before stirring ourselves? Is that the "ethical" option favoured by all those who are so quick to shriek about how "Bush murders Iraqi children", etc.?

"Besides, others in the region, (Israel, and Suadi arabia) have WOMD too. Iraq was attacked because the neocons fabricated the evidence in Israel, using the climate of fear after 9.11"

...And how often has Israel used WMDs or tried to annex say, Jordan? And even Saudi wasn't as bad as Iraq under Saddam: Saudi may indeed have been exporting Wahhabism with its oil, but it is not (yet) ruled by a war-mad psychopath.

One can argue endlessly over how at the time the casus belli was made (or botched), but the only question that matters is this: was it right to leave Saddam in power to conduct business as usual?

phil

David Lindsay- Has all this oborne stuff caused you to take ill? from your last post it seems you have really lost it -you didn't mean me did you ? "may not be altogether comfortable voting for a candidate endorsed by those dedicated to the overriding interest of a foreign state in general and of that state’s violently anti-British minority in particular.""- sorry I cant understand any of the rest ,must have gone dyslexic

I do,not think I am allowed to tell you what to take but I would go and see someone if I were you ,but I must say thanks at least as I have not had a laugh all day until you posted .. ps it could be the after effects of the swine flu jab -doesn,t affect the Israeli lobby of course ,not allowed to use it .not kosher you know .

Madge hirsch

Oborne is a useful idiot for the Islamists. He appears regularly on the Islam Channel. He is incapable of any sort of objectivity

fletcher p k

I'm sorry but i can't see how our politics or any one else's can benefit from a situation where MP's can recieve "donations" from individuals or groups. This to me is just a form of bribery but dressed up to make it look half acceptable. It really is time that we got this sorted out because as we all know our politicians wouldn't appear to be too morally sound when it comes to money. The expenses scandal proves that, so lets just remove another grey area thats open to abuse and clean things up.

Then we wouldn't having this debate about foriegn groups influencing our govt. Not that Israeli extremists or Mossad or who else knows would seek to pervert the running our society for their own ends would then? Surly not

Because to be quite honest i don't care how you try and justify it What Israel don't to Those palistinians in January was out of order in fact it was a sickening war crime.

But thanks to their effective lobby i doubt there will be any justice. Personally i don't think of my self as anti-semantic, i don't really feel anything as such about the jewish religion or people just another set of punters really.

But the actions of Israeli govt really have at times offened my good old british sense of fair play and justice....although maybe such ideals have no place in the modern world.... so onwards and upwards ... anyone for another security wall ?

Brian Moshe

I am not going to comment on the programme as I am in the US and couldn't see it.

Could I point out that I post only under the name Brian Moshe and not just as Brian. So Brian:
who posted
Brian
November 16th, 2009 11:50pm
-----------------
please could you add something else to distinguish us from each other when you post on here?

A poster called Verity was recently quite rightly annoyed when someone appeared on this site calling herself Verity (etc).

So, I would greatly appreciate it if you could note what I say - I think also I have been posting on Melanie's threads longer than you have and was originally just Brian until another Brian appeared (perhaps you?).

At that point I added my name Moshe because two Brians is just confusing (like two Tonys: one was forced into becoming Original Tony) and so I ask you politely to identify yourself with more than just Brian even though it may well be your name.

MITNAGED

David Lindsay, you underestimate people's inclination to generalise from the "few" Jews to all Jews, particularly when they have an animus towards Israel (by which they mean Jews).

Despicable was this programme's too-ready representation of supposition and innuendo as fact.

Think about it - if the Israel lobby is so "powerful" how come the Foreign Office and other government ministries of whatever political stripe are so rabidly against her?

Ben Surrerier you must be intelligent indeed to be able to distinguish between Israel and "Jews." Most of Israel's detractors, and particularly her Islamist neighbours and Islamists here and elsewhere in the world, seem utterly unable to make that distinction and that seems to be infectious.

Phoenix

Great article Melanie. Superb irony and debunking of the Despatches programme.

However I must admit that I think that you may not have got your point acroos to all your readers. Some of them may actually believe you!

Tim Calvert

Augustus
Are you familar with the First Law of Thermodynamics?
Your roadside generator is really just stealing petrol from passing motorists - highway robbery if you like.

Mr R

Did no-one pick up on this: Suneira said "Mecca is a theocracy, it doesn't claim to be a democracy like Israel does. Saudi Arabia is not a democracy nor does it pretend to be. It is a religious theocracy and as such Did no-one pick up on this: Suneira said: Mecca is a theocracy, it doesn't claim to be a democracy like Israel does. Saudi Arabia is not a democracy nor does it pretend to be. It is a religious theocracy and as such doesn't allow non Muslims in Mecca nor Medina. for over 14 centuries no non muslim has been allowed in either city. Nor is that about to change ever." So, using that "logic", if Israel suddenly said "we're a theocracy, not a democracy" but did nothing else, then its so-called apartheid wouldn't be apartheid anymore?? This is precisely how the Arab world "wins" its arguments - by subverting the argument, overturning the basic premises but leaving the consequences that flow out of the original hypothesis to stand. Cunning and crafty.

cityca

Great article - 'the scales have fallen from my eyes...' is an excellent rebuff to this nonsensical film.

Unfortunately when one visits the Channel 4 website, it's amazing how many people have written in praise of what is at best an example of how not to prove a point.

How can these people be so lacking in discrimination as to take at face value Oborne's 'proof'. Unbelievable

Hoob

I am glad Melanie you got back into your senses; it is about time the Israeli hijack of the Guardian and BBC has been exposed. I am now concern that Channel 4 has been taken over by the Jews as well; as it allowed Ahmadinejad to give the 2009 New Year message; what a disgrace, a Christian festive moment hijacked by a JEW! I salute Peter Oborne for his Channel 4 Jews chasing, this is the real festive spirit!

Nicholas P

The programme was such thin, shrill stuff, but I was in despair when I realised it was by Mel's fellow Mail columnist Peter Oborne rather than some usual-suspect lefty, and open-mouthed at the unfairness of it. Pitiful though it was, the scary music and sub- Roger Cook doorstepping could have left the average viewer drowsing after their dinner with the impression they were witnessing the unmasking of some heinous conspiracy.

Or maybe not. I think the media underrate the intelligence of the public, and I think there will be a reaction against this kind of unfairness eventually. I watched it with someone who's strongly anti-Israel, and after a while even he muttered, 'I'm starting to feel sorry for the Israelis now'.

One thing I will say, however: the programme got great mileage out of the way Israel's defenders often tend to label Israel's critics as anti-semites, and it was the one thing that made me squirm uncomfortably and feel he had a point. I've done it myself, but it's counterproductive and should really, really be avoided in all save the most blatant cases. Hatred of Israel is often embarrassingly, shamefully reminiscent of anti-semitism, particularly when it comes to things like boycotts of Israeli academics and film-makers. But saying things like 'the opponents of Israel are the new anti-semites' looks unavoidably silly given that some vociferous critics are Jews and Israelis themselves. It's giving a gift to people like Oborne, and those defending Israel should learn to bite their tongues more. Be as calm as you can and just stick to correcting errors of fact. Over-quick accusations of bigotry are something I associate with the nutty left, and it's not something we should stoop to.

David

Suneira,
A couple of questions:
One: What is your definition of a neocon? (You refer to them repeatedly in your post)
Two: You say that “Melanei Philips” was one of the few Brits who cheered on as right-wing Israeli's and neo cons in America fabricated evidence against “saddam”. Actually, 297 members of US congress passed the “Iraq War Resolution of 2002” (297 votes against 133) for some 62 counts/reasons (for invading Iraq). Moreover, 74% of Americans supported taking military action to remove Hussein from power (Does that mean that 74% of the US population are neocons?) The Coalition forces found no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq but can you comment both on how the other 50 or so counts were fabricated? Also, when you said that Melanie cheered “them” on, do you mean that she simply supported the operation (like millions of others) or that she had some greater influence over the matter?
Three: You justify the fact that non-Muslims aren’t allowed in Mecca or Medina by pointing to the theocratic government of Saudi Arabia. By extension of that argument, would you agree that if Israel took a similar line on Jerusalem, then they would be justified in preventing any Muslims from residing in the city.
Four: You say that “the Zionists” had a campaign of ethnic cleansing. However, 20% of the Israeli population is Arab and they have the same rights as Jews. That statistic would indicate that the “ethnic cleansing policy”, which you accuse Israel of, was a singular failure. Would you agree or could you elaborate on the other factors which impacted on the decision of Arabs living in the war zone to leave?

Merlyn

Fletcher P K, you may be able to clean up politics by stopping 'donations', but then we still have the greater incentive - oil, or the greater disincentive - eg. Islamic violence...

solemnman

Whether Iraq had or didn't have weapons of mass destruction is irrelevant.Their intentions ,in the region,had already been manifested.They attacked Iran and used the chemical weapons they did have .The eight year war with 1,000,000 dead did not sate their appetite for expansion.They attacked and occupied Kuwait,risked and caused war with America and,when that was lost,waged a genocidal campaign against their Shiite and Kurd populations.If they had had the bomb -wouldn't they have used it on Iran.Wouldn't their defense have been-well,didn't America use it against Japan? Their is no doubt in my mind that Iraq would have reconstituted it's nuclear program and begin again its march toward hegemony.As bad as Saddam was,how much worse would his completely deranged sons,who would have succeeded him, have been.

Mervyn

Well done,Melanie.Such a truism at the end.It reminded me of Joel Gray singing to the gorilla in the film Cabaret "If you saw her through my eyes,she wouldn't look Jewish at all." Very scary,as is the invective on the C4 site.

Brookline, Massachusetts USA

Bravo, Melanie! Well written, but I have one concern: Will the "Osbourne Lobby" recognize the sarcasm or will they instead demand alternative sources of fuel?

Henri

Why mention the complaints to the BBC without mentioning the BBC's refusal topublish the Balen Report?
I was actually cringing whilst watching this hatchet-job.
Oborne should be ashamed of himself. This had no recognisable elements of balanced reporting

Leonie

I agree the programme was blatantly one sided, but then didn't you expect this? As for the EUMC definition of anti-Semitism - it's totally dangerous - to me it seems it promotes the idea that everybody is an anti-Semite until proved otherwise. People are scared to open their mouths even to legitimately criticise Jews/Israel. No wonder so many Brits (non-Muslim/non Jewish) are getting sick and tired not to mention resentful of such Stalinist legislation being demanded by a minority group. I'd like to know what was wrong with British Law before this excuse for a government signed us up for European human rights law. Multiculturalism/neo-liberalism has become the monster so many ordinary people feared.

Curious George

Goldman Sachs.

Stephen Gash

Jews in England and especially London must come to the SIOE demonstration in Harrow on 13th December to speak up for Israel and to point out how the atrocities commited against the Copts in Egypt go unreported. How the atrocities against Buddhists in Thailand, Chritstians in Pakistan and Indonesia also go unreported. They all go unreported because of the massive Muslim lobby, not only in the UK, but also by the biggest voting bloc in the UN, the 57 Islamic countries. None of these countries have signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but have their own Cairo Declaration which enshrines sharia law. This is ignored by Channel4 and the rest of the British broadcasting media, of course.
So come to Harrow and bring 1,000 Israeli flags.

Canon Jim Fry

Thanks Melanie.

I always find your comments honest and a balnce of both sides of the question/problem.

I have been following Honest Reporting for some time now. How can so many be prjudiced agains Jews/come the State of Israel ?
As a Bible bleiver I see that the aretz (land) was promised by God to the Israelites millenia ago.
After 1948 everyone except 'Zionists' have tried to get it back.

Canon Jim Fry [B.Sc., M.A., Durham. S.Th.Lambeth., M.A.,Kent]

E. Goldsmith, Chicago

Such a hoot to hear people talk about "Zionist ethnic cleansing." After 1948, hundreds of thousands of Arabs remained west of the Green Line. They became Israeli citizens and they are still there; their descendants are still there.

After 1948, the number of Jews east of the Green Line was ZERO. No Jews even remained in the Jewish Quarter (!) of the Old City. Nearly every Jewish institution and holy place east of the Green Line was desecrated or destroyed. All across the Arab Middle East, Jews were effectively driven out by a combination of government policy and/or mob action, leaving their properties and businesses behind.

Ethnic cleansing and apartheid on the part of Israel? Please.

Adam B.

fletcher pk

"anti-semantic"? Are you for real?

Are you aware that British forces have killed far more civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan than were killed in Cast Lead? What are your thoughts about that? And were 6000 rockets landing on Israeli civilians "out of order"?

Nigel

What I'd like someone, anyone, to demonstrate, is where and how these so-called Israel lobbies are actually successful. Because, as far as I can see, no matter how much money they allegedly have and put in the palms of politicians, etc, none of the leading Western governments, least of all the British government, demonstrates a Pro-Israel bias. While to an untrained mind, diplomatic speak may sometimes appear to favour Israel - although consideration of the full context almost always reveals a consistent failure to condemn PA/Arab actions - Britain's diplomatic *actions* (rather than words) reveal, if not anti-Israel bias, certainly pro-PA/Arab bias. Britain has consistently worked against Jewish statehood, certainly readily demonstrable since the late 1930’s.

So, please someone, anyone, demonstrate the success in practice of the so-called pro-Israel lobbies, and the value for money they are getting. If, indeed, they are successful, it can only be that they either pour huge amounts of money for few concessions in moderated diplomatic speak or pour very little money for very little in return. Or, is someone, anyone, suggesting that the Israel lobbies prevent calls for and decisive actions towards wiping Israel off the map? I don’t see any other choices, and remember that since the 1930’s Britain did all it could to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state, abstained at the non-binding UN vote for partition, and during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War actively “worked” for, with and alongside the Arabs to wipe a fledgling Israel from appearing on any new maps.

Indeed, if any deep investigation is called for, it should be in respect of Britain’s consistent perfidious actions against its promises to the Jews in respect of establishing a Jewish state, its consistent Arabist foreign policy, the ever-increasing Arab and Muslim lobby, especially the Saudi lobby, which has embedded its philosophy and personnel at the highest levels of British society, and is now quickly trickling its influence throughout British society in general. It’s sickening to say, but this latest attack on the Jews appears to be another conspiratorial smokescreen to divert attention away from the rapidly growing and demonstrably effective Arab/oil lobby and the inextricably linked Muslim (especially and most notably, Saudi Wahabism) influence.

Furthermore, a deep investigation into the sources of funding/income of Britain’s leading media outlets will be most revealing to the British public, as will the focus of new British-based news services. For starters, look at the advertisers on BBC World, the sponsors of BBC World programmes, and the BBC’s latest news services, and you get a picture worth much more serious investigation than why it is, with all their alleged money and influence, the Jews are demonstrably failing dismally to win the hearts and minds of the British public via the words of Britain’s political and media elites, and the selected edited imagery coming out of the Arab-Israeli conflict shown on British TV screens.

Josh Bartak

The Jews have all the oil? What planet do you live on? Israel has next to nothing in terms of oil reserves compared to the vast control that Arab states have!

Josh Bartak

Oooooo Melanie you are being sarcastic lol sorry. My bad.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Nigel, bravo a thousand times ! Trouble is you're dealing with bigots who don't have the ear for anything other than anti-Israel propaganda and try to disguise the true nature of their bigotry by insisting that they're "only anti-Zionist".

Chris

More disinformation.

ANSELM ROTHSCHILD
"Give me the power to issue a nation's money; then I do not care who makes the law."

SIR JOSIAH STAMP, (President of the Bank of England in the 1920's, the second richest man in Britain)
"Banking was conceived in iniquity, and was born in sin. The Bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen, they will create enough deposits, to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers, and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits."

bob

What difference does it make who has the oil if you need dollars to buy or sell it. The only reason why Britain never adopted the Euro.

If you control the money printing presses you can subvert everything including controlling the media. Those hook nose money changers are behind every ill in society.

Mandy

Any goy read the Talmud lately?

Harriet Schultz

This satire is worthy of Jonathan Swift. Mazel Tov.
Hope you enjoy your growning Moslem population in the UK.

Martin Jarvis

It's interesting that there's absolutely no contradiction of the CONTENT of the program itself, nor the facts presented, nor any condemnation of the pretty unimpeachable Peter Oborne.

Just a lot of...er...insinuation!

Matthew

You need to read Douglas Reed's Controversy of Zion!!

It is essential for understanding our history and situtation. Go onto Amazon Right now, and buy a copy! And when you are finished with it, give it to a friend to read.

go and look up who Douglas Reed is, and why his book is so important today.

m abukhdeir

spot on! melanie

John of Canberra

Suneira: re Mecca being closed to kaffirs and this being justified by Saudi Arabia being a theocracy - last time I looked the Vatican allows non-believers to visit and it is a theocracy. I wonder why the difference? It seems your argument justifying Saudi apartheid on theocratic grounds is flawed, unless you accept that the Islamic theocracy involved is oppressive, bigoted and essentially fascist and antisemitic in its world view and that that's okay.

Benjamin Ketang

The world will always illumated through a loved meeting and happy-sharing about our life

If we are interesting to share and cooperation with someone that we love the world absolutly rise and SHECHINAH.

Suneira

David and John of Canberra
1-3 the answers are that in the wake of 9/11, the American neocons fabricated evidence which to justify a Pax America, look up PNAC, it was an Israeli far right outfit allied to American neocons. Saddam was a baathist regime no threat to the US or Britain, it was Al Qaeda that was the enemy and Saddam’s atheist regime was an enemy of Al Qaeda. In the climate of fear it was easy for America using the media to con people. After 7 years they can’t do that any more, Iran, so no Pax America .

“Three: You justify the fact that non-Muslims aren’t allowed in Mecca or Medina by pointing to the theocratic government of Saudi Arabia. By extension of that argument, would you agree that if Israel took a similar line on Jerusalem, then they would be justified in preventing any Muslims from residing in the city.”
No Sir, simply because it’s not due to spite that we do not allow Jews or others into Mecca or Medina, it’s because there those cities do not mean much religiously to non Muslims, so why do they want to go there? They do not regard Mohammed as the final Prophet so unless there is a reason, generally no none Muslim is allowed there. I might add that the Prophet himself didn’t ban Book people during his time in these 2 cities. But after his death that ban has been there and never revoked by any ruler, emir or King.
Also, the whole of the 2 cities are not off limits, only a five mile radius. Can’t we even have 5 miles to ourselves without being accused of intolerance? Did you used to allow non Jews into the sacrificial temples?
Regarding Jerusalem, Muslism DO regard Suleyman, Dawood, and all the Prophets as being Prophets, and the Torah as being divine, we see Jews and other Book People as being fellow monotheiests. We do love Jerusalem, and remember Caliph Omar ended the exile of Jews, the Byzantines wouldn’t let them into Jerusalem but he put an end to that. Therefore it wouldn’t’ make sense for Jews to ban Muslims. Whether they ban atheists or other polytheists, is up to them, but the Torah has same guidelines as Quran regarding monotheism. I doubt your Rabbi’s (who include Muslims amongst the Bani Noach monotheists) would allow idolators into the temple if it is ever erected.
What the Vatican does is entirely upto them. It has nothing to do with us, nor would we dictate to them, let Muslims into the Vatican. Jerusalem is sacred to Muslims.
Finally, Israel is a secular democracy, not a theocracy. Only in a theocracy can you justify banning people due to religious reasons. This is not apartheid. Jews and others are allowed into other parts of Saudi Arabia (which may not exisit in future) but whoever controls the Mid East, it doesn’t matter, Mecca and Medina have traditionally been there only for Muslims.
Do non Muslims really want to mix with Muslims who are going there because it’s the Prophet’s land? To them he is just an ordinary man so why?

Suneira

continued...To David and John Canberra

John, insisting that everyone follow your version of a democrac if they prefer a theocracy is in itself a form of facism.

It has nothing to do with Saudi Arabia, which is a modern monarchy that may or not survice. Mecca and Medina have ALWAYS been only for Muslims, since the Prophets death, and the first Caliph declared that the cities should only be for Muslims. It’s just as well, because even now, we have to wait 5 years for a Haj visa.
Traditionally Islamic societies have always beena theocracy. I think you need to realise that the Quran has always been the constitution of the Arabian peninsula.
“Four: You say that “the Zionists” had a campaign of ethnic cleansing. However, 20% of the Israeli population is Arab and they have the same rights as Jews. That statistic would indicate that the “ethnic cleansing policy”, which you accuse Israel of, was a singular failure. Would you agree or could you elaborate on the other factors which impacted on the decision of Arabs living in the war zone to leave?”

David, nothing is pretty in war, and I didn’t say the problem was exclusively the Zionists fault. The British rulers, Arab rejection due more to them thinking that they were not Jews returning (always welcomed in Arab lands if you know Islamic history) had a lot to do with it too. The arabs saw them more as European colonialists than the Jews who lived with them. They didn’t know what was going on at the time.

suneira

To P

“One can argue endlessly over how at the time the casus belli was made (or botched), but the only question that matters is this: was it right to leave Saddam in power to conduct business as usual?”

The welfare of Iraq was not the point. If so there are other more genocidal regimes in the world for America to invade and help.

We both know that had Saddam not been anti American he would have been allowed to carry doing whatever he wanted. Saddam was threatening to stop trading oil in the dollar, like Iran has done. that was one of the major reasons the neo-ons moved quickly, using 9/11 as apretext. Of course they feared the weapons of mass destruction, because Israel would lose local dominance. Also they had the support of the Armegedonites , Christian Zionists, (the biggest supporters of the Iraq war, for the Armegedon) that’s why Melanie Philips and the neo cons are always lauding them, and why America kicked out the Bush regime. The third reason was greed, for oil, Dick Cheny. Only he was a winner

The neo cons destroyed America, they now wanted to go into Syria and Iran, but the Americans saw thru their lies, and Blair was stupid enough to be a poodle, in the hope for oil contracts.

sylvie

correction: Zionnists, not Jews!

PHIL

suneira
November 21st, 2009 2:12am------- /WOW !!!! PERHAPS YOU SHOULD WRITE A BOOK .Maybe even take up painting as you certainly are inventive .Your explanations regarding Mecca and Medina are outstanding they would make you a number one target for the new labour spin machine .WE cannot go there but you can go wherever you want is a feat of gymnastic magnificence that I have never before witnessed .
I understand your revisionism of the reason for the Americans war on saddam as I was in the company of Arabs when they told me the Israelis flew the planes into the twin towers and that no Jews had gone to work that day .Strange as friends of my family actually died there ,perhaps they changed their religions as it was happening .Only the deranged can conceive thoughts like that ,and those thoughts have led us down a path of mutual misery

Do you really think BUSH was defeated because of the Iraq war?HE was defeated because he showed himself to be not the smartest man on the block and the vast majority of the USA remain steadfastly behind their troops and the commitment to decency in the ME ,our definitions of that decency will have to remain a bone of contention but until those like you discard the brain washing that you have been subjected to we will remain in this terrible state of conflict.That is not my wish ,I WOULD PREFER WE WERE FRIENDS ,but I am not hopeful that the Muslim world will ever stretch out a hand of friendship and tolerance to the west .

Israel and the Jews are a sideshow as is aptly demonstrated on a daily basis by the atrocities carried out on Muslims themselves all over the planet ,an end to the Palestinian problem would merely shift the emphasis elsewhere .The crazies amongst you would find another minority to focus on and off it would go again .Solutions ? yes excommunicate the militants and show the world that Islam is the religion of peace that so many of you claim ,I prefer to believe you but the evidence is certainly not there is it ?

Open your eyes Suneira we are all in this together ,AND TOGETHER IS THE ONLY WAY TO SOLVE OUR PROBLEMS -stop the naming ,blaming and shaming and look towards the future not the past .That past is only a guide as to how bad it can be .I do realise that I am probably wasting my time but my British/Jewish upbringing tells me to seek peace and offer respect in the hope it will be reciprocated .It is the reason I write so much ,I hope to influence our society to move in a better direction and those that do not ,deserve the society they inhabit .Too many on these threads just offer invective and accusations without any attempt at construction so I suggest that you try my way -you never know it may really help all of us .

Suneira

Phil,

If you're thinking I belive in anti-semitic theories you're wrong, I don't blame Jews, the neocons are fringe loon element, but that;s all you need to subvert. They're a fifth column in the USA, even the AMericans say it, Neo Cons are the far right extremist Jews and Christian Zionist extremists. THey believe in a greater Israel and the Christian Zionists in the ARmeggedon. They formed an alliance of convenience though they don't like each other. Neither group represents the majority of Christians or Jews in the USA, but they did subvert US policy. Netanyahu is on record for saying that 9/11 was a godsend for Israel. He is a rightist too.

You're in denial, my guess is because you think covering the sins of the neo cons will case diversion from their aims.

The neo-cons did mislead Bush, The Guardian, BBC and other mainstream media have exposed the role of the neo-cons.

They don't represent all Jews, nor do I blame Jews, (Melanie Philips's neo con views are rejected by mainstream Jewry in England and the US)

Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda are two differnt things. the enemy of the USA was Al Qaeda, not the Baathist regime of Iraq. After 9/11, there was genuine fear in the USA, which the neo-cons used to fabricate evidence.

This is not a conspiracy, Cheney played a large hand in this. I cannot post a link here it doesn't allow me, but do a search using "neo con plot" and "general wesley clark" the nato commander. He is on record for having saying that on that morning he received a request from someone in the Bush administration telling him to find something to invade Iraq.

This is not a conspiracy Phil, Al Qaeda had nothing to do with Iraq, but the neocons, using the media in the US, and the Christian Zionists who believe invading Iraq will bring the Armageddon by raising Israel's borders "from river to nile", and Dick Cheney for oil.

Oil greed, ARmeggedon, and Israeli neo cons were responsible for misleading the US into Iraq.

PNAC was not a conspiracy Phil, it was an organisation created by neo-cons, and it had an Israei far right branch, which fabricated the evidence.

This is not a consiparacy, and the Iraq War enquiry will now put it under the spotlight.

Blair is guilty of being a poodle, i don't believe he was disloyal to the UK, nor Bush, but Bush was misled by Dick Cheney and the neocons.

phil

SUNEIRA--"if you're thinking I believe in anti-Semitic theories you're wrong," I believe you ,but I still think you have been brainwashed .If you think there is such a thing as neocons ,why refer to them as Jews of any description? Should I refer to hitler as a Christian or just the crazy evil man that he was ,he certainly did not represent Christianity and extremists never represent Judaism ,only themselves .

Do you like the idea of the Muslim militants being seen as representing your religion .I hope not ,so forget all this labelling ,there are goodies and baddies in this world ,so if you read again my last paragraph we may start to get somewhere better for all of us .. The position I take here is often a lonely one as so many write her with outpourings of hate and lies with no thought for a future of peace and a meeting of minds .I have said that I wonder sometimes why I do it ,it seems such a waste of time when I get back such negativity .

Grant Carlson

Perhaps some Spectator readers would care to read of this recurring madness from a Canadian perspecctive.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/21/george-jonas-the-bomb-is-just-the-beginning.aspx

logdon

Talking of oil it appears that the Saudi's are preparing plans for compensation for loss of income when it runs out.

No doubt the UN will agree.

No mention of where all the previous money has gone of course. No sending in the bailiffs to recover the assets. No confiscation of all the global property Saudi Wahabbi's have funded.

Just keep up with the jizya, kappish?

http://patcondell.com/index.html

However the main thrust of Condell's piece is the growing acceptance of a ban on criticism of Islam.

We certainly live in strange times when on the one hand Oborne can spout such drivel, yet pretty soon one word of non acceptance of a Pakistani culture taking over in a place near you will land you in the nick.

How much longer will we put up with this wholesale dismantling of our democratic State?

What is the tipping point when we say, enough is enough?

Yes, there is a conspiracy but it's not the one in Oborne's fevered imagination.

In fact it's precisely the opposite.

Obama bows and genuflects towards Islam whilst simultaneously having the chutzpah to tell Israel when and where it can build in it's own capital.

That’s enough to tell me where things are headed.

Suneira

Phil,

I am not brainwashed, and I am politically aware as well as being able to speak a number of languages.

I made it clear that the neocons don’t represent all Jews, nor are they all Jews, Dick Cheney isn’t Jewish, and most of them are Christian Zionists, but the fact is, they would not have been able to do what they without the Zionist elemetnt. Since Zionism is linked to Jews, Jews cannot deny this like you’re doing, you should accept and do something about it. Much like we Muslims are responsible for the Islamic terrorism done in Islam’s name. We cannot pretend that Islam has nothing to do with it, when they are using Islam it’s up to us, to put a stop to it, by educating them, and dealing with them.

The neo cons are ones who created the fabrication “Judeo Christian”, even though the two religions are completely different, and Rabbi’s and Priests reject that term. They did that to create the illusion of a common cause of a greater Israel and a war against Islam because they don’t recogise Israel. The have a concerted effort in convincing people that their enemy is the West’s enemy and after 9/11 that worked. The Christian Zionists in America who were the biggest supporters of the Iraq war, did so because of the Armeggedon, and the Jewish neo cons couldn’t have pushed all that without them.

Do you get my point or do you think I am still brainwashed?

Answer this, why do you think people like Melanie Philips, who doesn’t represent British Jews ( I know they opposed the war) was cheering on the Iraq war, she even propogated a fairy story about the weapons being in Syria, because that’s where the neocons were headed to next, if they hadn’t badly miscalucalted the Iraqi response, and how the enemies, (al qaeda and baathists) joined together to defeat them they would set up bases in the Mid East, with Israel as the figurehead, with no immediate threats. In a way, it’s good Iran is getting the bomb, it will a wonderful payback for them.

And do you think it is a subversive fifth column movement or not? You need to follow American and Zionist politics carefully( the left, right and Kahanist version) before you accuse me of being brainwashed. Nobody brainwashes me, and I’m an intelligent lady. I know what is going on.

I’m curious, do you support the neo-con agenda? And why do you think Bush was so hated? It’s because they realised too late, that he was a stooge of the neo-cons too stupid to govern himself and that’s why the neo-cons had a campaign against Obama, because he is smart enough to see through their garbage and lies.

Grant Carlson

Suneira, your post is so riddled with nonsenical labels, such as "Neo-cons", that it makes no sense whatsoever.

Can you make an effort to eliminate these meaningless terms and re-submit your opinion? Perhaps you might have something of value to contribute.

Barry

England will sink for good. Syd Vicious was a visionary, no future for England indeed.

Shoshana

Suneira,

If you know as little about the rest of the world as you know about America, no wonder you get everything WRONG.

The "Bush Regime" was not kicked out of anything. THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION does not permit anyone to serve more than two terms as president. GET IT?

The Republicans lost for a number of reasons, most of them domestic, not due to foreign policy. GET IT?

As for your fancy dancing about the apartheid in Saudi Arabia (where Jews CANNOT enter, nor can anyone with an Israeli stamp in their passport), it rings hollow. Why not just admit the truth? Your religion preaches supersessionism (look it up), you believe yourselves to be superior to the dreaded "kufr," and that nothing decent, sensible people say to you will change that.

PHIL

Suneira!"Do you get my point or do you think I am still brainwashed?" If you want the truth I have to say yes !!-If you tell me you are clever ,I must accept it ,all the more astonishing that you have written so much that is off the wall.
You keep referring to Zionism ,something you have not got a clue about (I have explained it here have I not? )-When I read what you said about Israel wanting to front the "neocons " in the ME ,I actually began to think that perhaps your sanity was in question,but I will accept it is only brainwashing ,what onearth could Israel want to be involved with dominating a Muslim world .Even recognition of Israel is not important for me ,just leave them alone ,or better still make peace .

I am not A NEOCON WHATEVER THAT MAY BE I support MAN UNITED !!
As far as Muslim are concerned ,I had much to do with them prior to 9/11 without ever considering what their religion was and vice/versa,some stupid kids may have called them a word associated (to them ) with coming from Pakistan but otherwise we had no problems with one another .The idiots associated with Muslim extremism changed all that ,did they not ?

For what it is worth Jesus was a religious Jew and Christianity evolved from Judaism and its basis is exactly that so the words Judeo/Christian have meaning at least for us ,if not you .Nevertheless and just for you ,I am not religious at all,I care about all human beings and if you were the same we would not be having this silly conversation ,whether you like it or not you will become the same dust as me and accountable to the same GOD ,so may I suggest that whilst you are here you start doing something to make life on earth a little more peaceful.

You have said that you are not racist and I have accepted that ,but you need to stop listening to the crazies who claim they spread the word of the Prophet ,they do him a great injustice by instead of representing a religion of peace ,they continue to murder people of all religions all over the world
.I am sick of the red herring of the Palestinians ,you need to explain why they kill their own in vast quantities and how this represents the wishes of the Prophet
.
PS READ carefully what Shoshana said about Bush ,I forgot to say that my self.

Suneira

Shoshana

“The "Bush Regime" was not kicked out of anything. THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION does not permit anyone to serve more than two terms as president. GET IT?”

Shoshana, I agree with you. I meant to say the neo con party was thrown out. But now YOU’RE being disingenious. The US economy was in tatters because of the Iraq War. I’m aware of two terms for President but I didn’t mean Bush personally. I meant that the Republicans are the party of the neo cons, that’s why they had to do. There is a backlash against the Christian Right in America because they were the biggest supporters of the Iraq war, capped science and tried to change the constitution to achristian one. America was founded to keep state and religion separate. The Neo cons see the Christian right as useful idiots because their Armedggon belieffs mean they support a greater Israel.

even Melanie Philips cheers them on here, but in actual fact the new generation of Evangelicas are dumping the faith because of its bigotry and hatred against other religions.

It's ironic, are you Jewish? American Jews are at the forefront in fighting this menace. Most American Jews are Dems, the neo con scourge is Republican at the moment, but they trying to sneak into the Dem party now.

Bush was just a figurehead, it was Cheney, wolfowitz, Rumsfeild, Kristol, who mislead america. The Republicans could have won with McCain if they policies were not so abhorrent.

“As for your fancy dancing about the apartheid in Saudi Arabia (where Jews CANNOT enter, nor can anyone with an Israeli stamp in their passport), it rings hollow. Why not just admit the truth?”

Jews can enter Saudi. I know of some who have been. I said that no Non Muslim is allowed in a five mile radius in Mecca and Medina and that is all Non Muslims not just Jews.

“Your religion preaches supersessionism (look it up), you believe yourselves to be superior to the dreaded "kufr," and that nothing decent, sensible people say to you will change that.”

Shoshana answer this, was it suppressionism that only Kohanim could enter the temple? If a temple is built now, is the Rabbinate going to allow everyone to enter it? Why don’t Jewish Kohanim allow/allowed the dreaded non jews and goyim to enter the temple? The Rabbinate have forbidden Jews from even walking on the Temple Mount because they in impurity.

To enter Mecca and Media you have to be in a state of purity (prescribed for a Muslim, but we can’t impose it on non Muslims). If someone desperately wants to go, I’m sure they’ll be admitted and given permission, but it’s not a place for tourists.

suneira

to Phil and the other gentleman who left a comment for me, i hope these posts answer most of your qu's because i'm pressed for time, i cant write a lot,

shoshana,

you said my religion preaches "supersessionism" I presume you mean, that we consider the previous book religons as obselete ? Not so,

The traditional Islamic view of the previous Book people is that thye are fellow monotheists. You do not have to believe in Mohammed to be righteous, but you do have to be monotheist. so we don't preach supersession as do say, some Christian religions who say that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved. We believe Jesus to be a man and Prophet only, not God.
and you save yourself by following the laws. That said, some Islmic sects do believe in supersession but they are a minority, and they are intolerant to their own too, that's why you hear of sunni shia fighting. They're intolerant and wrong. but you have them in Judaism too, look what the ultra orhodox are doing in israel, a minority, but they attack the hiloni Isralei's jews. beath the women, even set fire to their houses. so you will get extremists in all religions.
Traditonal Islam recognises all monotheists who follow any of the Prophets from Adam to Mohammed. That is why even those Jews who belived in Prophets we don't believe in (bar kocba, shabtai zvi) were still within the bounds of faith.

Kashrut is Halal, and Muslim men can marry book women in their religon, so Islam does not practice supercession. If you want an indepentant proof of that, when the Rabbinate in Israel suggested making Israel into a Theocracy, 85% of the Israeli Muslims supported it.

Phil,

About the Palestinins killing each other and what that has to do with the Propehts teachings, the answer is Palestinan struggle is a secular nationialist movement, much of Arafats top brass was Christian, Sabeelis a Christian group, and Sami Kuntar was a Druze.

The struggle is about land not religon. If it were about religon, Jews wouldn't have preferred to live in Islamic lands and your golden age came about in the Caliphate.
REad
"The Jew as an ally of the Muslim" and "Jews in Arab lands"

phil

Suneira
November 27th, 2009 8:07pm Again you write in a pleasant way but you have not answered any of the remarks that I made .I am intrigued as to why we still keep hearing "kill the Jews" if the argument is over land rather than religion .I agree the land question must be settled but you never hear Jews shouting "kill the Muslims".If the rest of your people had what seems to be your peaceful position we would not be in such a mess ,as for my people ,I can assure you they want peace ,justice and a proper life for all of us .

Brian Fileman

Witty and satirical. Unfortunately the British public is now so anti-Israel that this will be read at face value by many and viewed as support for the Zionist-conspiracy theory.

Leslie Peterson

If you denounce Israel faithfully and support Arabs ceaselessly, you are a BBC reporter.