Who cares?

Jaz

Clearly you Mel, or else you wouldn't have bothered to write something denouncing them, would you?

EDDIE

It is really so sad because it shows how far hate exceeds logic

Kojak

The only thing missing was:

"We agree with Peter Obourne's assertion that the Israel Lobby unduely influence British foreign policy".

That must have been an oversight which no doubt they'll correct next time.

Ruth

Mel, why the surprise? Re-read Exodus 32:7.

VAT 69

Jaz. Try to be more allowing. Perhaps it was a hypothetical 'who cares'.

J. Isaacs

Caring Jaz. I care enough to be grateful for Melanie Phillips's information that the Jewish turkeys of IJV (Independent Jewish Voices) must be voting for Xmas again this year.

George

For those of us who live outside the UK, is it possible to post the full text of the advertisement and a list of the major signatories? Or maybe a link to a scanned photo of it?

RR, Uninvited Columnist

More and more these days I meet British Jews who pattern their outlook after Mr Micawber, or Dr Pangloss: Things are bound to get better. Those are the pro-Israel bunch. The Israel-haters regard Israel as a U.S. satellite which if it didn't exist--and in a world where American influence was slight-- all would be peace and harmony in the Mideast and South Asia.
In the U.S., Jewish anti-Zionists, in addition to blaming neo-cons and AIPAC for the mess in the Holy Land, single out "fanatical" and "fundamentalist" Christians who are trying to hasten the Second Coming by championing Israel, especially its Right wing pols. It saddens Jewish leftists-- many of whom consider observant Jews (or anybody who fears God, for that matter) to also hold "irrational" views--that they are not embraced by Islamists.

Tim Ottevanger

Who cares? you ask. Well, the signatories to that letter care. They care that Israel has committed prima facie war crimes against the people of Gaza through a totally disproportionate blitzkrieg (sorry if you don't like the German word, Ms Phillips - I can't think of another one) They care that Israel is perceived to be(because it is) an aggressive occupier and thief of other peoples'land. It's strange how you jettison accepted standards of behaviour when they are applied to Israel. Under your morality Israel is to be permitted self defence while a people whose land has been occupied illegally for over 40 years is not.

Liz

I have been told that Independent Jewish Voices and affiliated 'As-a-Jews' are collecting signatures calling on the Prime Minister to SUPPORT the Goldstone Report.
There is however an anti-Goldstone petition on the number 10 website at the following link
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoToGoldstone/
It is for residents of the UK and British citizens abroad only.
Children can sign-provided they have an e mail address.

Roger K

There will always be those who will become the Judenratt administration of the ghetto and somw will make excuses for them. As for myself, even though I am in my sixties, I would sooner throw my lot in with the similar fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

Brian Moshe

Melanie, although I recoil from the declaration in this paid-for advertisement, and share your view that the signatories represent only themselves, nevertheless I can't share your indifference.

Most of the signatories are in academia and other influential professions. Those who are professors and lecturers have the potential to have some influence on their students in the course of their lectures, seminars and tutorials.

I have to say that Melanie is lucky that none of the signatories appear (from her comments anyway) to be members of the congregation she belongs to.

I belong to the same Jewish congregation to which one of the signatories also belongs and has a senior role in. So for me there's nothing to yawn about unfortunately.

Herbert Thornton

The advertisement declared that British Jews do not speak with one voice.

I think that Mel is pointing out two things. First the declaration had about it the air of a presumptuous rebuke to Jews whose opinions differed from those of the advertisers. And second that it was boring, because to say that different Jews hold different opinions is no more than a statement of the obvious.

Nordheim

Melanie, if anything it's worse over here. Lot of our "Jewish" organizations are just left- wing activist groups composed mostly of people with vestigial connections to Judaism. As a result, a lot of people think of Jews as a nusiance. Go figure.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Ms. Phillips: It would be nice if you linked the advertisement, unless you think that would give it undue publicity. Chanukah is coming. Hag Sameach to All.

George

Tim Ottevanger,

Your use of the word blitzkrieg shows either a total ignorance of military tactics or a total ignorance of exactly what the IDF did in Gaza and and what speed.

just Louise

I know for certain that one of the signatories is a long-standing member of a Christian congregation. Her Jewish origins are invoked solely for the purpose of publicly castigating Israel.
I suspect that she is not the only one among the signatories who has severed all ties with Judaism and the Jewish community.

Laura Latini

On top of being the average Israel-bashing moron out of touch with reality (no wonder he has a Scandinavian surname and the standard upper-class-twit name), Tim Ottevanger does not know what "Blitzkrieg" means. It goes with his general ignorance that he should nonetheless insist that he should use that word and no other. Not only a dolt, but satisfied and proud to be one.

Observer

I just went on to the Independent Jewish Voices website.

They request that you add your signature providing you are Jewish.

How discriminatory, from those enlightened people. Melanie can you imagine the outcry if your blog was only open to those of Jewish Persuasion.

I copied from their site

"If you are Jewish and would like to add your name as a signatory, please email us. If you can afford it, please contribute £25 or more to this end; and if you can't run to that, contribute whatever you can. And if you can't contribute anything, please don't be put off. Sign anyway.

Ask your Jewish friends and relatives who might be sympathetic to add their names as well. If you would like us to approach them, on your behalf or anonymously, please let us have their contact details.

Please reply by email to: ann@barnowlbooks.com with

skydog

Tim:''They care that Israel has committed prima facie war crimes against the people of Gaza through a totally disproportionate blitzkrieg (sorry if you don't like the German word, Ms Phillips - I can't think of another one)''

Perhaps it was Zionist 5th Columnists who were firing Katyushas from Gaza into Israel Tim? Just as the Poles fired on Wermacht troops from the Gleiwitz radio station?

Maybe it would have been better all round if the Israelis had left Hamas to get on with it whilst continuing to provide them with free electricity?

skydog

Tim:''They care that Israel is perceived to be(because it is) an aggressive occupier and thief of other peoples'land.''

Check your history books Tim and especially the UN resolution founding the state of Israel. Check the geography of the proposed state of Israel at the time and then tell me what the map of the area would have looked like had the surrounding Arab forces driven the 'Jews into the Mediterranean Sea' as they wished to do in 1948. Woulkd there be a state of 'Palestine?' Don't fool yourself, the surrounding Arab countries would merely have carved up the region amongst themselves ... and then set to squabbling over the 'spoils of war' even whilst all those ousted Jews were frantically treading water in the Med. ;o)

Yehuda

We've known Jews like these before: we are about to celebrate the Festival of Hanukkah, when we recall, among other things, that it was a "Jew" who volunteered to desecrate the Jerusalem Temple in order to ingratiate himself with a Gentile power.

EDDIE

When I looked at this wretched advertisement I did not see who paid and sponsored it. Who is behind this thing?

Beedeekay

These pathetic people consider themselves intellectuals yet they are totally blind to the fact that no matter how little regard they have for the mainstream Jewish community, if our enemies came knocking at the door, their fate would be the same as that which would await the rest of us.

steve bronfman

The only time we hear people like this identifying as Jews (eg the "Stephen Fry syndrome") is to bash Israel. They never sign petitions proclaiming their Jewishness on any other issues and I bet they've all married out, haven't raised their kids as Jews and haven't been to a Shule (reform or otherwise) in 20 years. The only bright aspect of these "as-a-Jew" types is their offspring won't be Jews.

the non-prophet

i think this has reached a new low.
Yesterday, a 5-live report on
how the unite union was planning
to get palestianian flags distributed at a football match
in scotland vs an Israel team
"to show the israel team, (er!) our:-) feelings" and "the uk s solidarity in support of the persecuted palestinians"

must be the ever increasing anti- semitic muslim wing of the U.nited A.ssoc F.ascists

mostly harmless

I do and given that you cared to comment on it, so do you.

phil

Tim Ottevanger
December 1st, 2009 11:06pm
I suppose it is lucky for you that we as a people accept free speech even if it comes from sources similar to der sturmer ,,you know nothing of Jewish life or morality ,understand nothing of the wishes of the Israeli state and you had better believe I understand what you are about -I do care what that state does,and the highest standards that is its ambition , and I do not give a damn what those like you think ,and I am sure I am not alone -veshtaste!!!(I cant spell it but with your knowledge of German you will understand.)

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Mr. Oy-Veh-Ger: Do you really want the precedent set that its a prima facie war crime to shoot back when Arabs are shooting at you? I guarantee, whatever country you live in, the Arabs will be shooting at it, by and by.
Disproportionate? I'd like to see your country, whatever it is, endure the attacks Israel has and stay as proportionate and continue to provide the attackers with water and electricity.
Don't insult out intelligence by saying you are sorry about the German word. Bliztkreig? Exactly when did Israeli soldiers, in Arab women's clothing or in Arab uniforms, parachute drop behind Gazan lines?
An aggressive occupier and thief of other people's land? There was a time-ever hear of the Balfour Declaration?-when GREAT BRITAIN admitted that that was Jewish land. Israel went in in self-defence after Jordan attacked it. (Or was Gaza part of Egypt, and the Israelis launched a pre-emptive strike because they got a little scared when Nasser was bragging that the Egyptians were going to push the Jews into the sea?)
The Gazans are as entitled to self-defence as anybody, and they know as well as anybody-as you-that if they don't shoot at the Israelis, the Israelis won't shoot at them.
"A people whose land has been occupied illegally for over 40 years?" It's illegal for Jews to want to stay alive? You don't count very well. The Israelis pulled out of Gaza in 2005.
Do you realize that the minute a person says that the Israelis are illegally occupying "Palestinian" land, he's admitting that Jordan is Palestine and that the now-called "Palestinians" (during the Mandatory Period, hundreds of thousands of Jews were Palestinians. It said so right on their birth certificates) are Jordan's responsibility? As I am sure you know, the now-called "Palestinians" are culturally, linguistically and historically Arabs, like the Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians-all the people who could have prevented the whole tragic "Palestinian refugee problem" from developing in the first place if they had either accepted the U.N. partition plan and refrained from attacking Israel or taken in the Arabs who were either expelled from Israel after five Arab states attacked it or left Israel voluntarily, figuring Israel would be defeated in a week and they could come back and loot Jewish property.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Beedeekay: BRAVO!!!!
Dear Ms. Latini: Don't say Mr. Oy-Vay-Ger has "the standard upper-class-twit name." I've known some nice Timothys in my time.

Anne Wotana Kaye

I find these "Voices" rather pathetic. Personally, "I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member." penned by the late Oscar Wilde. ...
Seriously, Stephen Fry? The late unlamented Harold Pinter? Not enough space to enter here why I wouldn't wish to be associated with the so-called intellectuals in this band of misfits.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Yehuda has put his finger on the key word: "ingratiate". That's what it's all about, sucking up to the "majority". There have always been such throughout our history.

What I don't understand is why these people do not formally sever whatever tenuous connection they may have with the Jewish nation and fully assimilate into the majority. Here are some suggestions: publish a Declaration of Severance in a prominent UK newspaper (Guardian, Independent, Times would be ideal), join one of the Christian denominations, in the case of males who have been circumcised - undergo an operation for reversal of that condition.

Baron

Tim Ottevanger @ 11.06:

I embrace your take on the conflict if you successfully carry out a simple experiment. Go to Gaza, stand on any street corner and shout ‘down with Hamas’. Then move along to any Israeli city, stand on a street corner and shout ‘down with the Zionists’. Better still, reverse the schedule.

For me, this is the test that determines everything, including the way Israel defends herself. If what Israel did turns out illegal, the system of governance enjoyed by the country has mechanisms to deal with it. May take time, and yes, on occasions, the wrongdoers get away with it. This is how democracies tick. Not perfect by any means, but bloody better than anything else. The Palestinian brothers in the leadership cannot even agree amongst themselves because they represent but themselves. And ordinary Palestinians suffer.
Go figure.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

A W Kaye, I believe that your quotation is from the late Groucho Marx, not Oscar Wilde.

phil

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)
December 2nd, 2009 11:17am ---No real Christian denomination would want to be associated with people who think like him -please do not wish him on them .

just Louise

I've long despised Stephen Fry -he who, according to his biography if I remember correctly, toyed with the idea of becoming an Anglican priest -coming out as a Jew solely for Israel-bashing purposes.
Just like my acquaintance the active Christian of Jewish birth, mentioned above.

I suspect that the signatories are a mish-mash of the following types:
- incorrigible leftwing "Non-Jewish Jews", who like Rosa Luxemburg care not one iota about the suffering and aspirations of their own people
- intermarried and/or converted Jews ambivalent about Jewry and Jewishness
- snobbish persons from old Anglo-Jewish Mosaic persuasion families keen to dissociate themselves from the Whitechapel-derived mob
- trembling Israelites of the Ostjuden-despising yekke-mould
- persons with a feint thread of Jewish ancestry, if through the maternal line so much the better
I'm sad to see Lynne Reid Banks in that camp; I'm showing my age here, but I well remember her stirring speech on behalf of Israel (and contemporaneous newspaper article) at the big pro-Israel Trafalgar Square rally at the time of the Yom Kippur War in 1973. She wrote at the time that the Jews and their "sliver of a country" should be supported for "all that we let them suffer in Europe". She was, back then, a terrific "philosemite". But perhaps a philosemitism based exclusively on the image of Jew-as-victim and not on any more positive precept is inevitably on shaky foundations.

Steve Bronfman, don't be too sure that the offspring with no shred of Jewish upbringing or yiddishkayt, whether halachically Jewish or not, won't rush to defame Israel on the basis of a little bit of Jewish ancestry. In Australia there is a notorious father-and-son team of that ilk, both academics.
The Celtic surnames on that list of signatories certainly suggest something of the same sort might be going on.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon) I stand corrected. I'm just going out, and haven't time to check through my books, but have an idea Oscar W also said something very similar. Phil was right, don't wish those creeps on anybody else.

Herbert Thornton

This is not an exact parallel to the discussion that Melanie's comments have produced here, but it is perhaps similarly interesting -

http://ezralevant.com/2009/11/calgarys-official-jews-as-stup.html

szeni

I have met two of the characters who signed the Times ad: a few years back one sat next to me at a bar-mitzva and another at a wedding party (for the curious reader - only one is a (sociology) professor, and neither is Alexei Sale). They both struck me rather as stupid than evil; the bar-mitzva guest wanted Israel to be 'more like Ethiopia' (to accomodate the Falashas); the professor went into a long rant about the BBC controlled from Tel-Aviv.
I will report here Alexei Sayle's views on Ethiopia and the BBC if I bump into him at the Islington Hannukah street party

hennesli

its good that there are organisations like IJV to remind people that there is are many different opinions in the Jewish community on the subject of Israel.

Indeed many of the greatest minds in history have come from the Jewish community. Marx, Trotsky, Freud, Chomsky, Soros, Pinter and Stephen Fry to name a few

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Hennesli: Trotsky, Chomsky, Soros and Pinter are among the greatest minds in history? I trust you're being sarcastic.

just Louise

Here's one I prepared earlier - apparently it was not transmitted properly ;~(

I suspect that the signatories are a mish-mash of the following types:
- incorrigible leftwing "Non-Jewish Jews", who like Rosa Luxemburg care not one iota about the suffering and aspirations of their own people
- intermarried and/or converted Jews ambivalent about Jewry and Jewishness
- snobbish persons from old Anglo-Jewish Mosaic persuasion families keen to dissociate themselves from the Whitechapel-derived mob
- trembling Israelites of the Ostjuden-despising yekke-mould
- persons with a feint thread of Jewish ancestry, if through the maternal line so much the better
I'm sad to see Lynne Reid Banks in that camp; I'm showing my age here, but I well remember her stirring speech on behalf of Israel (and contemporaneous newspaper article) at the big pro-Israel Trafalgar Square rally at the time of the Yom Kippur War in 1973. She wrote at the time that the Jews and their "sliver of a country" should be supported for "all that we let them suffer in Europe". She was, back then, a terrific "philosemite". But perhaps a philosemitism based exclusively on the image of Jew-as-victim and not on any more positive precept is inevitably on shaky foundations.

Steve Bronfman, don't be too sure that the offspring with no shred of Jewish upbringing or yiddishkayt, whether halachically Jewish or not, won't rush to defame Israel on the basis of a little bit of Jewish ancestry. In Australia there is a notorious father-and-son team of that ilk, both academics.
The Celtic surnames on that list of signatories certainly suggest something of the same sort might be going on.

just Louise

If my comment of 11.54 reappears, it's because I sent it again in error, not realising it was there ... red face and apologies! Off to Specsavers pronto!

Harvey

A few of these " voices" were present at the Bloomsbury Babtist Church which was hosting a PSC event last night. I'm pleased to have added to the small but vocal protest outside the main doors but must admit to being somewhat intimidated by a slightly deranged Deborah Fink in full alto soprano mode giving her abhorrent version of 12 Days through a megaphone.
It was hell in the trenches but she eventually gave up.
The church should of course be held in utter contempt for staging a political event in association with a group which has links to Hamas, a rabidly antisemitic terrorist entity.No different in fact from the church in pre war Nazi Germany .
Utterly disgusting!

Maximilian

@ The non-prophet (at 10:04 am)

Harry's Place has a fascinating post about tomorrow night's Celtic v. Ha-Poel Tel Aviv match, including this:

Hapoel Tel-Aviv fans are part of the international Alerta anti-fascist movement, which reaches around two dozen clubs, including Celtic and St Pauli . They bear “Say No to Racism” banners at games, in both Hebrew and Arabic

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/12/02/stuc-looking-for-rent-a-demo/

just Louise

Miranda, I think hennesli is winding us up. Not only are there numerous "Non-Jewish Jews" among those he cites, but Marx was a nasty antisemite and a racist regarding black people to boot!

Frank P

Miranda Rose Smith

"Dear Hennesli: Trotsky, Chomsky, Soros and Pinter are among the greatest minds in history? I trust you're being sarcastic."

I trust, Miranda, that Hennesli is taking the piss big-time. If not, some very strange people are visiting this blog.

phil

hennesli
December 2nd, 2009 2:06pm Que pasa hombre ?? you missed out hitler ,stalin and pol pot -they secretly davened in a North London Bes Hamidresh disguised in beards and peyas but later were thrown out after being seen eating prawns out of a back copy of der sturmer at a Millwall match -please no spelling lessons !!

non-prophet

Max,
this is also something i heard about y/day, re-the Israelli team, that just makes, this ,(if of course it goes ahead) even more gauling.
Apparently this was mentioned later on in the day on beeb 5
but, the rep from Unite, was totally oblivious, and apparently unconcerned,even when the question was raised about possibilities for hostility
(that bears all the hallmarks of all recent United Assoc Fascist
behaviour),
i have to admit i did not hear the later piece, i wonder if you or any did

C. Gee

just Louise:

Your argument seems to be that the signatories are not true Jews.

The definition of who is a Jew differs according to the purpose for which that identity is being claimed.

Those who claim to be Jews in order to discredit the nation that embodies that identity - are self-parodies. Groucho without the humour.

J-Street Jews claim that Israel is corrupting true Jewishness.

Tony Judt and others like the idea that Jews can lead the way to a post-national polity.

Rather than bother with defining who is a Jew, let us take notional Jews on their own terms. The Goldstone Report signatories, J-Street, Judt et al, can make only one public gesture as Jews that makes political - and logical - sense: publicly renounce their right of return to Israel.

Everyone goes home happy.

Joe Strummer

Maximilian- You may be aware that Celtic FC's Roman Catholic supporters are virulently anti-Semitic, ask the ex-Celtic Jweish player Eyal Berkovic, and will be flying Hamas and PLO flags in Glasgow tonight when their football team plays their Israeli opponents Hapoel. Their Glasgow rival supporters of Rangers FC, however,always have the Israeli flag in attendance at their games at Ibrox Stadium.

Truthtriumphs

My comment has fallen in your black hole. Could you find it please---- I spent valuable time on it?
Thanks.

just Louise

C. Gee: "Everyone goes home happy."
(Except me ;~[ )

Seriously, far be it from me to apply an halachic test (I'm not a rabbi, and I'm not Orthodox) but from a sociological perspective I do think alot of them are deracinated from Judaism and all meaningful involvement with Jewish life. I know one or two personally. Certainly, some are propelled by Judaic notions of justice into taking the side of the Palestinians, and I'm open to the argument that there should be a divided Jerusalem (with East Jerusalem part of an eventual Palestinian state) and that the settlements must be frozen. I worry that Abbas is not being given any carrots by Israel, nothing to show for his apparent moderation, and that this plays into the hands of Hamas. However, I see all too many of the signatories as people who identify as Jews only in order to bash Israel and defame Zionism. In other words, "non-Jewish Jews", to use Sir Isaac Deutscher's term and meaning - people with no empathy for Klal Israel as a whole, let alone Medinat Israel. I know that some members of IJV and JfJfP believe that Israel should abolish itself in favour of one state for all. I don't predict a long lifespan for such a "Utopia". It's what Peter Hain used to argue in the 1970s - alas, I'm old enough to remember that well - (and why I hope he never succeeds Gordon Brown as Labour leader, for I doubt he's changed his spots).

Laura Latini

Miranda Rose Smith: I've known some wonderful Scandinavians, too - including one or two who actually saw through the PC filth that they had been fed all their lives. Alas, they are a minority. And this person seems to have all the worst traits of PC and upper class twitdom, united in one execrable marriage.

Adam B.

One has to wonder why a Jew signs his/her name on an ad in the Times, saying that they're not like other Jews. What is the motivation for this, other than to say "look, I'm an acceptable Jew, love me!"

I think that there are Jews who, when they view the deluge of hate and bile heaped upon Israel and the Jews in general, find it so painful to associate themselves with the object of this relentless hatred that they try desperately to distance themselves from it - not just to make themselves acceptable in the eyes of others - they also do it for themselves, because they have no self-esteem. For them, joining the Israel bashers resolves the illogical and irrational hatred; by making it "rational" and "logical", they can again make sense of the world. It is extremely sad - but they don't mind selling out their fellow Jews for their temporary respite.

ahad ha'amoratsim

George "Your use of the word blitzkrieg shows either a total ignorance of military tactics or a total ignorance of exactly what the IDF did in Gaza and and what speed."
But that was not Tim Ottevanger's goal. And there are otherways to say Blitzkrieg -- one can even translate it as lightning attack. TYim Ottevanger was not trying to describe what Israel did. He was trying to link it with Nazi Germany, the better to delegitimatize it. That the comparisons are false matter not, just as it matters not that his remaining charges are canards as well.

Maximilian

@ Joe Strummer (yesterday at 7:42 pm)

Why in Glasgow but not in Liverpool, I wonder? You have an equivalent Catholic-Protestant split there as well. But you don't see Palestinian flags at Goodison Park and Israeli flags at Anfield. Or do you?

Merlyn

Mel have you noticed Israel has critisised Sweden for its draft resolution, due to be discussed by EU foreign ministers next week, to divide Jerusalem between Israel and a Palestinian state, accusing them of trying to push through an important shift on EU policy.
We need to keep an eye on the EU now as our governments lose their say.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

"An advertisement signed by left wing Jewish in support of Goldstone report" if this lefties don't shut their mouth they should get beat up by Shavorakou stick

Wilhelm

''Que pasa hombre''

Congratulations for speaking some sense, not in English of course, but thanks anyway.

Wilhelm

''you missed out hitler ,stalin and pol pot -they secretly davened in a North London Bes Hamidresh disguised in beards and peyas but later were thrown out after being seen eating prawns out of a back copy of der sturmer at a Millwall match.''

Its a word salad, son.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

just Louise, Abbas's "apparent moderation" ?? The man who has repeatedly stated that the Jews are not a nation, that they have never had any historical connection whatsoever with the land of Israel, and that he will never, ever recognise Israel as a Jewish state ?? Really !

Have you fallen into line with the 'international community' (Britain in the lead) in its "hear no evil, see no evil" policy where the so-called 'Palestinians' are concerned ?

D.C. Thornbray

Those of you who have identified the issue of Jewish self-hatred are spot on. These types in previous generations would have converted. " Good" examples are the fathers of Marx and Disraeli. Those two identified with their " Jewishness" by either vicious anti-semitism as in Marx's " The Jewish Question" or cloying sentimentality as in Disraeli's writings. Today there is no need to convert to another religion in order to succeed. But a form of conversion still takes place, and that is in order to succeed in their world, i.e. arts, media, academia etc they have to be more liberal than the liberals, more anti-zionist than they anti-zionists. They need to show the world that they are "Juden frei"( or Fry?) and they desparately want to be liked by the world who will still only accept them if they bend the knee. As dispicable as they are I feel a little sorry for them. Too Jewish for the world they want to be part of and suck up to. Not Jewish enough to be with their brothers and sisters. Nebech!!

just Louise

Ben-Tsiyon, please be gentle with me (I've got a whopper of a flu-like cold!).
I just wanted to demonstrate to C. Gee that I'm not an automatic rejecter of compromise, having been "sat upon" by "he who must be obeyed at home", a much more dovish person than I am.
However, my operative word was "apparent". I like to think that I'm a realist, and I do distrust Abbas; I believe he has expounded Holocaust Denial in the past. Thanks for telling me what Abbas has said; I have to pass that on to my domestic dove.
My broad position is very similar to Isi Leibler's.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Congratulations, D.C. Thornbray. So very well put !

Mr Melrose

Serious Question - Why do 90% of the posters on here believe that most of the population of the planet hate the Jews?

As far as I can see the list of 'Jew Haters' includes everyone from Hamas, Arabs generally the British, the BBC and the printed press to most Jews themselves (especially the liberal wing), the Red Cross, Amnesty International and Shelter.

The latest addition would seem to be 'The Scandinavians' (apart from 'one or two')

Is this the true situation?(personally I have never heard anyone abusing the Jews - (plenty of anti black and Muslim comment though), or is it just the rantings of a small far right/Zionist group?

It really is all getting a bit repetitive 'This weeks vile anti-Semitic Jew Haters are ( fill the blank) etc etc....

Interested to know.

phil

Wilhelm
December 3rd, 2009 11:41am -do you need a translation?-;)

Wilhelm

''Serious Question - Why do 90% of the posters on here believe that most of the population of the planet hate the Jews?''

First of all, it aint a serious question, its a comical question. Get with the programme, son. Do we have to spell it out for you ?

phil

Mr Melrose
December 3rd, 2009 2:04p
I feel at times that my hand moves to my keyboard a little like Dr Strangeloves arm (key for Wilhelm here),maybe its in the genes as so often it is us who are the target for those that hate -Maybe naively, I do not think most people hate Jews ,in fact I believe just the opposite ,but enough of them come here to make snide remarks somewhat like you have just done ,and am I wrong but have you not been "critical" before ?.

Forgive me if I confuse you with someone else ,your name seems rather familiar .Would it be to much to hope for that your post was written with an expression of inquisitiveness rather than that of a smirk ? , .

Wilhelm

Phil ''do you need a translation?-''

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.

Wilhelm

'' I feel at times like Dr Strangeloves arm, key for Wilhelm here.''

Nihil est--in vita priore ego imperator Romanus fui.

Linda Smith

Just Louise, you say you would be happy to see East Jerusalem become part of a Palestinian State. Are you aware that the Old City is in "East Jerusalem". Are you happy to see Jews prohibited from their Holy Sites again under Muslim rule as they were between 1948 and 1967?

Adam B.

Harvey, well done for opposing such drivel. That church is a disgrace. Wish I could have been there!

phil

Wilhelm
December 3rd, 2009 4:04pm

Phil ''do you need a translation?-''

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
Wilhelm
December 3rd, 2009 4:16pm

'' I feel at times like Dr Strangeloves arm, key for Wilhelm here.''

Nihil est--in vita priore ego imperator Romanus fui.

WILHELM I AM SURE WE ALL WOULD BE OBLIGED -gracias en anticipacion

just Louise

Linda, I wouldn't be at all "happy" to see it, but I'm "open" to considering the argument that it might be a solution; that's my dove's influence again.
Believe me, I take your point.
As an Aussie rabbi (not hitherto known for attachment to Zionism) remarked regarding a proposal that Jerusalem should be divorced from Israel and place under UN jurisdiction: "How can a body live without a heart?"

Wilhelm

Just for you Phil

The Latin translations are

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.

If Caesar was alive today, you'd be chained to an oar.

Nihil est--in vita priore ego imperator Romanus fui.

Thats nothing, in a previous life I was a Roman Emperor.

Truthtiumphs

Adam B.
It's not that the Israel haters so much "view the deluge of hate and bile heaped upon Israel/Jews", as that they are the most ardent purveyors of it.
Some of them do it because they are third rate in their field, and so it gives them a platform that they otherwise do not have.
Others cannot forgive providence for their misfortune in that they were born into what they see as a despised race.
You are quite right that they seek acceptance of the non-Jewish majority by distancing themselves from their despised Jewish brethren, (except those of their viewpoint).
Others are gullible and ignorant, and believe the claptrap and lies put about by these people.
To get a better idea of what they are about, why not go to one of their meetings ---- Jews for Justice, IJV, etc.---all the same people in various guises, to witness vicious hatred of Israel and to hear her portrayed as unremittingly evil? That is, if you have the stomach for it.

anglicus

Jerusalem June 2009 - Israeli police fired water cannons at thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem who threw stones in protest on Saturday against the opening of a public parking lot they see as a violation of religious law.
Obviously Jews do not speak with one voice in Israel either.

David

Who cares? I'll bet many Israelis and Palestinians do.

The Goldstone report accuses Israel of war crimes, and so is historic. This goes beyond the usual anti-Israel rhetoric, into actionable legal consequences that, if upheld, would damage the nation severely. A big deal I'd say.

In Israel, smug vilification of Goldstone has been universal and seemingly oblivious to the real implications (as you seem to be as well). For a growing organisation Brit Jews to side with Goldstone and put their money into a public record of solidarity with Palestinians against Israel, is saying something. It is a big deal.

Goldstone's work will not disappear, and more likely will spur Jews in other lands tom make similar repudiations of Israel and gestures of support for justice.

phil

Wilhelm
December 3rd, 2009 10:40pm thank you Wilhelm ,much obliged , and if CAESAR were alive you would be in a boxing ring ,no doubt shouting "let me put my shorts back on ,you hold him back ref and I will do the counting "

phil

David
December 4th, 2009 5:16am

From your post it would seem you are both young and naive and with little grasp of reality-You seem to think that those that support Israel have no regard for the plight of the Palestinians and maybe there are some amongst us ,every side has its nutters . My experience is that the vast majority of us wish for peace and justice to ensue and that both peoples can live full and happy lives alongside one another .Israel has had that ambition for more than sixty years and has been under attack for all of that period and consequently has had to defend its citizens .

They have made peace with both JORDAN AND EGYPT and have accommodation with them .Sadly both hamas and hesbollah refrain from recognising Israel and retain the ambition to obliterate the state ,do you really think Israel should not defend itself and its people ?

You are too ready to make accusations of war crimes particularly without mention of those crimes that are committed against Israel ,I have no doubt mistakes were made in the heat of battle and in Israel,s case I believe they are dealt with, as in any democratic state with a rule of law ,I just wish you critics would impose the same standards on the other side.

You are of course right in saying that there are Jews who are anti Israel ,some think they will be better received for so doing ,hitler proved the fallacy of a similar argument .I along with countless others exert whatever influence we can to make sure the morality of the Jewish people is upheld by the state of Israel but by slagging them off continually and without constructive suggestions you merely show a naivety that does you no credit .

I assume perhaps wrongly that you are Jewish from your remarks, and if so I suggest you remember the upbringing that at least most of us have had ,to be a kind and gentle people with respect for others ,to be charitable and to try our best to make this world a better place .Your words show that you are trying but your conclusions are way off the mark .

Truthtriumphs

David.
Goldstone himself condemned his "report" by saying that many of his allegations wouldn't stand up in a court of law.
He further said that he wouldn't be embarrassed if it turned out that many of his allegations were proved to be untrue.
Unsurprising, since his "evidence" was based only on the testimony of Hamas, the proscribed terrorist organisation that cynically engineered this war.
He refused to accept the testimony of Colonel Richard Kemp, who testimony related to the care Israel took in protecting civilians in a theatre of war, and praised Israel, because the outcome of the report was decided in advance, and that was to condemn Israel.
As to your supposedly growing number of Jewish groups against Isreal--- WRONG.
The signatories number some 600, and are always the same people.
The Jewish population in the UK numbers some 270,000.
The vast majority are overwhelmingly pro-Israel, and want her to survive as a Jewish state.

Peter Burman

Thank you, Melanie. Thank you for your standing up for Israel and against those who seek its destruction.