Jihad in east Londonistan

DMDavies

The Hagia Sophia has in fact been a secular museum, not a mosque, since 1935

Franklin Evans

I don't want this taken as "blame the victims", but the question does come to my mind: why are they not standing up to the bullies, and using physical responses to their violence? Is it only because they are afraid? If that's true, then I suggest they take a hard look at that, and decide if their churches are worthy of being defended. It is too late to make that decision after the church has been burned down. Is it because they have no faith in law enforcement? That in itself is worthy of your comment, and should be shouted from the rooftops (as it were). Here in the US, we sometimes find it difficult to understand certain things that happen elsewhere. I would readily admit that this is due in some significant part to an arrogant myopia on this side of the pond. But we also have many things in common, including certain problems and ills. We have found (not always successful) methods of dealing with them. Perhaps your neighborhoods could learn from our mistakes and successes. Franklin Evans Philadelphia, PA

Eugene

Thanks for this, Melanie. Bloggers like me can pass the story around the globe.

Jan Maciag

First we can’t name the problem. Then we can’t celebrate Christmas...then we can’t see ‘certain’ cartoons or our soldiers can’t visit ‘certain’ areas of our culturally enriched cities. Now our priests can’t wear their dog collars in substantially ‘asian’ areas. What next? We will get rid of the cross of St George...design a culturally neutral coronation service…perhaps even replace the offensive way we count years since the birth of Christ. There is a long way to go but the journey has started.

N. Simon

Melanie, a great piece, as always, but it will get a lot worse, and it looks as though there's little chance of recovering our culture, traditions and civilisation, when the world is slowly submitting to the will of Islam.

Nu Labour have proved they haven't got the balls to tackle Islamism head-on and have made matters worse by appeasing Islam not mentioning Islamist terrorism by it's name - and claiming that all the violence is anti-Islamic! What hogwash they're trying to foist on us.

I find it hard to believe this country will ever recover it's own identity. We've become nothing more than a police state and are one of the Islamic colonies.

Louise

Unless my eyes deceive me, I see no mention of this incident - not even the merest hint - on the BBC News website. Now isn't that strange?!

George

Profoundly disturbing as usual, but I would like to point out as a Greek Cypriot that "Hagia Sophia" means in this case "Holy Wisdom" - although "Saint Sophia" would be written exactly the same.

alan stoddart

The BBC have reported this crime but seem to miss out the Islamic angle...the Canon was physically attacked and His attackers also jeered at him about his occupation, during the attack on Wednesday night. No mention of religious animosity or indeed any investigation of other attacks in the area. This was the same with the white boy, Henry Webster, who was attacked by a group of Asians...the BBC made no comment on the reports of racial tensions in the school. The BBC's continual portrayal of Muslims as victims and tolerance of their violence will lead to a backlash far worse than any the Liberal, guilt ridden apologists ever imagined....and it will be their fault...just as they extend wars by interference and ill-judged attempts to resolve them without violence or indeed they make the BNP look like an attractive vote by ignoring the White majority. The recent series on Whites in the UK was not done out of sympathy, the programmes were intended to show you that whites are deservedly ignored for their ignorant and racist views...the continual subtext is that these people would willingly embrace immigration if only they knew...

aram karibian

When the Moslem elements in England have attained a certain tipping point in power and influence, I wonder how they will treat others who make claims on their forbearance and understanding in the name of civic cohesion and the riches of multiculturalism. I guess you just want to wait and see.

Commondog

DM Davies I think you miss the point: St Sophia's is no longer open for the supply of bread, wine, human compassion etc.

Water

"The recent series on Whites in the UK was not done out of sympathy, the programmes were intended to show you that whites are deservedly ignored for their ignorant and racist views...." You could look at it like that or you could see it as a great way of playing British people at a time when they have just been robbed. The White series I feel was a way of diverting attention during Gordon browns great theft...referendum. I was talking to a Barber friend of mine who is a Muslim (I am not by the way, how controversial I know) he said many old people feel sickened by Gordon’s actions who also perceive this as a strategic move on the media/governments part. There are many people British Afro-Caribbean’s, Caucasians (who are most of the time white but can be brownish when they have tans) and Asians who feel robbed. Is it just a lack of solid British Identity which is preventing all communities working together and starting a revolution? Because after all most Asian people have no problem with Caucasian people (or Afro-Caribbean people) it’s just the small minority of idiots within otherwise great communities that are blown vastly out of proportion by the media…

Malcolm Lefcort

As ye sow, so shall ye reap

Water

Actually you have to applaud the government and the BBC in orchestrating the White season they really dropped the timing well (were it called the Caucasian season it would have been interesting, not that it wasn't mind you). What better way to rob people of the referendum and then turn their attention away from the fact they have been robbed and on to the minorities. The vast majority of British Asians are fine as are the vast majority of Caucasian people (who are not that ignorant).

Helen Oster

Well, what a surprise.............I spend about 1 -2 hours each day, responding to hate-filled diatribes on "Yahoo Answers", from people who apparently believe that ALL the problems in the Middle East are caused by Israel & the Jewish presence. I try in vain to disseminate the facts - that the "Palestinians" as a nation of Moslems, were a creation of Egyptian-born Yasser Arafat, in 1964, with the main goal of destroying the Jewish people living in the Land of Israel. - still the defined goal of Hamas, Hezbollah & the government of Iran today. I offer facts & figures that detail how many disputed pieces of land which are claimed by the "Palestinian" Moslems, were in many cases not owned, but rented from absentee Arab landlords. The land was then purchased by Jewish philanthropists & charitable organisations, piece by piece from these absentee Arab landlords. I try to raise awareness of how the Jewish effort in the 1800s to revitalise the land attracted a large immigration of Arabs from neighbouring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions. There was never any attempt to "rid" the area of the few Arabs that there were, or of those Arabs that immigrated into this area along with the Jews. I focus upon how this contrasts with the actions of the governments of Morocco, Egypt, Iran (then Persia), Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon Syria & Yemen, who caused thousands of Jewish people to flee the homes that had been owned & lived in by their families for generations. They ended up in pre-State 'Palestine'. (Even a cursory glance at the general Jewish population of Israel today, reveals a majority of dark-skinned Israelis, bearing testimony to their Middle-Eastern roots). Nevertheless, I continue to read the same messages of hate, every single day. Not just from "Palestinians", but from people who ally themselves with the "Palestinian" cause. In Jerusalem, out walking with my children aged 8 & 10, I've had stones thrown at me by Arab youths, but we've come to not only expect that here, but to expect the face of the civilised world to turn against us. The writing is on the wall for Britain, too. By 2010, if current census predictions are accurate, there will be more Moslems in Birmingham - the UK's second city - than non-Moslems. Maybe in 3 or 4 generations, when ordinary Britons are being accused of having "stolen" a Moslem country, those who are currently blind supporters of Islam & detractors of Israel, will recall how it all began.

Water

Malcolm Lefcort you stated "As ye sow, so shall ye reap" I hope so for I love Britan and its people regardless of race and the only seed I am sowing is that of unity.

HighPlains, Seminole, TX.

Dear Helen: Don't get discouraged. You do have an impact, and many, many people are beginning to listen.

M Clyde

'Get behind me, Satan'. Last week our servicemen couldn't wear their uniforms because 'certain elements' were accosting them in public. Now our clergy can't wear their collars in the precincts of their own churches... I hope this serves to vindicate Bishop Nazir Ali's statement in January that there are no go areas for whites. The canon's wife claimed this was due to a minority of trouble-makers high on drink and drugs (sounds like non-observant Muslims?) which may well be the case. But when similar incidents occur to Muslims by white youths of a similar thuggish description, 'healing' missions are launched by white politicians and white police chiefs to reassure Muslims of the good intentions of the majority. I hope the good canon and his wife receives similar corresponding soothing goodwill visitations from local mosque committees. Or are forgiveness, compassion and atonement a uniquely Christian virtues?

Barry

Ahhhh . . . The beautiful fruits of liberalism. You liberals so hated Judeo-Christian values and wanted to destroy it. Well congratulations. You did destroyed them. Isn't it beautiful. Rallies that begin and end with chants of "Allahu Akbar". Support for people who think its moral to shoot up highschool children. Sharia in London. Beautiful. You have become the change you wanted to see, liberals. Congratulations and Enjoy!!!!

Doctor White

Imagine for a moment three white youths, loitering around a mosque causing a nuisance, when the long-suffering Imam comes over to speak to them and ends up punched to the ground and kicked in the face... well, there would be national, nay, international outcry, the Prime Minister visiting the injured party in hospital, a rapid response by the police, an immediate call for massive sentencing increases to deal most harshly with the offenders, new legislation promised, and quite possibly vigilante action, retribution meted out to white people, you get the drift. It would be the biggest outpouring of liberal self loathing since, um, the Shilpa Shetty race row attack horror fiasco - but even bigger - since the victim would have been a muslim. Well sorry folks, this is not newsworthy stuff. To make this incident known might tarnish the government's illusion of a multi-ethnic rainbow nation, the misguided dream of a liberally-ill mind. Native Brits, in case you haven't noticed by now, you count for nothing in this age of enrichment and joyous diversity. Your tyrannical history and culture must be deleted to make way for that great big rainbow I was talking about. And multiculturalism doesn't come cheap either, there are benefits to be paid and houses to be built for our more diverse communities. Education, health and welfare must cater to the multicult's every whim. There are well-paid jobs to be invented, and other wonderfully rich, diverse local authority posts to fill, to keep the dream alive. So, you dull, monocultural people of pallor, let's have a bit more understanding for our diverse neighbours and their monopoly on poverty and disenfranchisement. And keep paying those taxes.

James_in_ Chicago

TAKE CONTROL. This is YOUR ISLAND! I thought you Brits had some backbone! Having served alongside with the RN back in the 80's, I always had the deepest respect for my Brit Brothers. Take Care Of Business and excise the cancer! This will NOT happen here, Stateside.

Ravi

Helen, if you could provide a link to those idiots you have been educating about Israel on Yahho Answers I'm sure a few of us would be delighted to join your efforts

Christian

You idiots, if you do not wake up very soon, you will be living in a muslim dominated country. And you know what they do to people who are not muslims in such countries? I suggest you find out before its too late. Your government has a responsibility to protect its own people, and the English government is failing miserably. .

Dave

Helen Oster said: "The writing is on the wall for Britain, too. By 2010, if current census predictions are accurate, there will be more Moslems in Birmingham - the UK's second city - than non-Moslems. " I can assure you, Helen that that's rubbish. According to the Muslim Council of Britina (using figures from the Office for National Statistics) the Muslim population of Birmingham is around 14%. There is talk that the city will become the first city where the non-white population outnumbers the white population. But that's a very different thing.

jean breban

You let them in They will kick you out

J. Isaacs

Dave - you must be the dyslexic troll (fol-de-rol) whose opinion last week involved offering an imaginary author called "Dickins" for us all to read. Well, the three billy goats gruff have never heard of the "Muslim Council of Britnia" (sic) either. If they had, they would certainly not quote its fairy-tale statistics. Also, what is the difference between a "Moslem" and a "Muslim" as spelt in your comment? Dave-please stop falling off the wibbly-wobbly bridge.

Geoff Miller

This has been going on for years. I spent 7 years in East London and it was in the local news and talked about by locals all the time. My wife was stoned one day as she got off the DLR train and we were attacked by a gang of muslims when we took our dog to the vets on Mile End Rd in 2001. No national news coverage of any incidents though. I contacted the London Evening Standard at one point and they refused to cover them - they said it was "too much" - whatever that means. Around 2002 the Police had to set up a special squad to tackle dozens of violent muslim gangs in Tower Hamlets - that was reported in The Times but there has been no coverage of their progress since - strange that. We did once start up a web site where people could report incidents, comment on the activities of violent muslims in the area and , naively expected some offical action, but that got closed down pretty swiftly as the police didnt want people comparing notes and spreading the news - fortunately I copied all the posts and have them to this day! Anyone who thinks these incidents are "isolated" or recent needs to wake up to what is going on and being officialy hidden from the general public. Needless to say we left the area as soon as we could.

Dave

J. Isaacs: Sorry I'll clearly have to spell check rather than rush through a comment. And as for "Dickins" who knows what I was thinking about so apologies. But Birmingham isn't about to become a Muslim Majority city by 2010. It just isn't. Have you ever visited?

John

A total disgrace. The BBC, Government and PC brigade should beware. We are not too pleased with what they have been doing with our money and in our name. Giving away our right to self government. Destroying our culture and national identity. I live in the very North of Scotland and we are totally disgusted. I cannot begin to imagine what our neighbours in the south feel. Remove these pathetic weak fools from government and lets elect some politicans who have the courage to reflect the views of the population. The BBC needs sorted or now more funding. If they wish to be a cheerleader for multiculture of the world, let the multi cultures pay for them.

Frank Pulley

I heartily commend a wonderful piece on the latest rumblings from the mullahs wishing to employ legal means to stifle criticism of their barabaric fantasies and even more barbaric actual violence: http://davidthompson.typepad.com/davidthompson/2008/03/flattery-lies.html

David Weare

Louise Not only the BBC but also Guardian Unlimited have opted to ignore this story. David

David Weare

Keep up the good work Melanie. The Brain-dead liberals must be running out of time by now. David

Barry larking

"The Hagia Sophia has in fact been a secular museum, not a mosque, since 1935"
DM Davies

Still not a church then?

J. Isaacs

Dave - Apology gratefully accepted. Alas, I have not visited Birmingham since the days of the Bull Ring, but the Brummies were very kind. It is Inayaat (Bungle) Bunglawala's MCB, which I would caution against visiting. Melanie Phillips has written very clearly about him and it in "Londonistan." As an additional reading list on Islam in Britain today, may I recommend Ayaan Hirsi Ali's "Caged Virgin" and "Crimes of the Community: Honour-based violence in the UK" by James Brandon and Salaam Hafez, published in January.

Larry B.

HMMM? Just Maybe? Give Britian to Ireland, and watch this islamo-facist mess evaporate overnight. CHRISTIAN peace albeit Catholic will rein in the British Isles. If you are not willing to protect and defend your faith, pass it on to others who will. Your govt. will not help you thanks to multiculturalism and its evil laws. Grow cohones and fight back, govt be damned. Peace.

A Chaffey

Interesting to see some posters apparently hinting at some quite radical solutions here. I read "You let them in They will kick you out" (Jean Breban) to be suggesting that perhaps "we" should kick "them" out first. "Take Care Of Business and excise the cancer!" (James_in_Chicago) seems to be contemplating something similar, or perhaps worse.

Michael T

Bye Bye UK.

Helen Oster

You should all also be aware that Moshe Feiglin, head of the Israeli Likud’s Jewish Leadership faction, has been banned from visiting Britain. British Home Secretary Jacqui Smith recently sent Feiglin a letter informing him that his presence in the country “would not be conducive to the public good,” due to statements he made in the past calling for harsh measures against terrorists and Arabs who support them. [audio:123147] Feiglin responded with a letter informing Smith that he had not intended to visit Britain in any case. He expressed pride in being included on the list of Israelis banned from Britain along with former Prime Minister Menachem Begin and senior IDF officers. Given that Britain recently allowed senior Hizbullah leader Ibrahim Mousawwi to visit, he said, “I understand that your policy is aimed at encouraging and supporting terror.” Feiglin, who came in second place after Binyamin Netanyahu in the last race to lead the Likud, said that an investigation should be launched to “determine the reasons for this strange initiative against a political figure in Israel. This initiative constitutes yet another example of European interference in Israel’s internal affairs.” The most bizarre aspect of the ban was the fact that one of the “objectionable” quotes from Feiglin’s past article - "The Arab is not the son of the desert, but rather, its father" - was taken directly from the book "The Desert Yesterday and Today," written by British High Commissioner of Sinai, Sir Claude Jarvis in 1938.

Paul Lewis

The official/state response to this (if any) will follow that of 9/11 and the Tube bombings here in East London. The police, who will not get involved in routine criminality round here, will mobilise to ensure that the non existent backlash is suppressed.

Our local MPs will meet with 'community leaders', ie Imams and liberal left groupings to assure them that they are on their side. Money will be made available to bribe, sorry, alleviate the disadvantages of alienated youth.

Meanwhile our little (and not so little) backstreet mosques will continue to host a diverse range of visitors from all points north, south and east the 'vast majority' of which, of course, will be 'moderates'just like their congregations.

Our junior school takes their children to local churches, temples, and synagogues, to teach them about religion. The mosque trip however is to Regents Park, many miles away, i.e. not one of the local ones within walking distance - now why would that be?

Dave

J. Isaacs: Lovely. I'm afraid my typing isn't really as accurate as I'd like so picking up on every tiny typo will bog us down somewhat. You should really visit. But to put Helen's mind at rest there is no danger of Muslims becoming the majority by 2010 (and given current numbers any time after that)

Water

By virtue of the ‘British empiricists’ (not colonialists or imperialists that is different) who were a group of philosophers all we should go on in the formation of ideas is experience (if were to remain logical and realistic about matters) and this influences what I say next. As I have stated on other posts I am British Asian (of Indian ancestry), with relatives of Caucasian British orientation, Caucasian/Asian mixed race Irish orientation and American-Asian Muslim Orientation. Though I have never had the good grace of meeting my Irish relatives (with whom I’d love to meet) with the other two categories of my relatives our varying cultures have never given any cause for conflict and neither should it hear in Britain. Allow me a few stories if you will. You see I was over in Germany at a British army base; I was much younger at the time meeting with an Asian family member who served in British Army at the time. Whilst there in Germany I met Muslim Brits who served in the British army as medical officers and I can tell you from first hand experience that all British Muslims are not bad. As I have said before it is just a minority within a minority. Now Brits (Asian, Afro-Caribbean or Caucasian) cannot reasonably resent Muslim communities from growing like over in Birmingham that is just nature taking its course. If we as Brits want peace we must treat Muslims in a reasonable fashion if we want the future to be fashioned in a reasonable light because respect is a reciprocal thing. We must ask ourselves why people have come to this country; the simple answer is because it was once great and British in its incarnation and it is a haven for peace (largely) and so should it remain that way. Caution must be exercised in order not to mix up talks of race and culture, because it seems as culture is being used as a tool by which to cause racial tension and this cannot happen as it will lead to violence and this cannot happen. For what ever the result is it will tear Britain apart from the inside out… after all it is only little. But we do need massive change on a revolutionary scale. Where our weakness lays as Brits is in a lack of identity we need a new sense of identity by which all communities can relate, this is what is lacking. This lack of identity is what is causing fears of so called ‘immigrants’ and Muslims who on the whole are very amiable people. You see I found out about The Spectator magazine when I went to place called Cumberland lodge in Windsor. Whilst there I met Muslims and Hindus who went to a Church and looked at it and what have you and were still Muslims and Hindus when they came out but did not cause any conflict! Why? As they were treated reasonably and respectfully by the great people at the Church of England. Now it is true some Muslims as with those outlined in the article are bad, but it is not because they are Muslim that they are bad! It just happens that there are bad people in every community we must not blow this out of proportion. Now as some people feel that there are no go areas for whites in east London, I would not agree I have had friends who live Newbury park just opposite an army cadet establishment but is surrounded by largely Somalia Muslims none of whom give them trouble so what does this mean? It means that Muslim members of the community get on wonderfully there with the white community and it just so happened that after staring at the cadet post opposite his house my Somalia friend joined the army which showed that Muslims were again a positive testament to a Multicultural Britain. Also I have Caucasian friends in Leyton and Stratford who would say there are many naughty people in the area but that is spawned from inner city life not people’s religious orientations. If people have had bad experience then I sympathise but this is no reason to stigmatise a whole religion and its advocates. Also as an Asian who has grown up in a Caucasian area and has faced much racism (and still do) I do not harbour any resentment for the Caucasian community as it is only through talking and reasoning that we progress and by no other means. I have Asian Family who have grown up in Lewisham who have had a brick thrown through their window no exaggeration! By white youths but my two cousins still turned out to be successful (an actuary and one of them an astrophysicist) and slowly the area has improved (not that much but it has) why because at first their presence was feared but slowly people came to realise through gradual meetings that they were not as bad as their gut instincts would lead them to conclude. Though this period was very rocky for my cousins they are in no way racist. Just a few examples of multiculturalism working, though there will always be a few bad eggs everywhere Muslim, Christian, Jewish and of any faith.

Water

Thogh what I would say is that there are no go areas for people in general in east london. This is true.

jean breban

I said : You let them in, they will kick you out. I am not suggesting that you should kick them out. You just cannot. I am only saying that they will eventually kick you out.

Water

wih ref to my last sizable comment there is a small typo in the first sentance, after the word 'philosophers' should appear the words 'who thought'.

Water

And a few other typos I've gone through it at a blistering rate, my apologies.

Helen Oster

Dear Dave I am also capable of the odd typo - it should have read 2020, not 2010. Birmingham 2001 Census: Muslim population in England 3.1% Muslim population of Birmingham 140,033 (14.3& of total population of Birmingham) The B'ham Chamber of Commerce website states: It is important to understand that many more young, Pakistani and Bangladeshi individuals of Muslim faith will comprise a greater proportion of the working population and local market base in the city. In terms of ethnicity, in 2001 the majority of the wards closest to the centre of the city have significant proportions of Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) groups, more specifically those of Pakistani, Indian and Black-Caribbean ethnicity. Those of Pakistani descent comprised the majority in seven of the city’s forty wards. This ethnic group has the second highest proportion of people below the age of fifteen in the city, which indicates that a relatively high number of individuals of Pakistani origin will come of working age within the inner city in the near future. From: hrxchange.co.uk During September 2000, the majority of children entering Birmingham's primary school system were from non-white ethnic groups By 2010 the white population of Birmingham is predicted to reduce by 60,000 and the black and ethnic minority is predicted to rise by the same amount By 2020 Birmingham is expected to be the first city in the UK and in Northern Europe which will have a greater black and ethnic minority than the indigenous white population. From: Paper for COMPAS University of Oxford by Dr Tahir Abbas, Senior Lecturer, Centre for the Study of Ethnicity & Culture, University of Birmingham " there has been a particular rise in the numbers of Pakistanis. This is both as function of high birth rates but also specific within-in group marriage practices. The Muslim and ethnic minority numbers have been increasing whilst at the same time the number of white groups have been diminishing…… Between January 1990 and October 2002, Birmingham City Council processed approximately 300 planning applications relating to Muslim religious buildings (including mosques and madrasas), compared with 245 relating to Christian buildings (including churches and church halls), 55 relating to Sikh Gurdwaras, and 12 relating to Hindu Mandirs. …………….." From: migrationwatch.com "…….the Pakistani population of Manchester, Birmingham and Bradford increased by about 50% between 1991 and 2001……. Between 1991 and 2001 the Pakistani population of Manchester, Birmingham and Bradford increased by between 46 and 53%. From www.danielpipes,.org "The Muslim birth-rate far exceeds that of native Europeans and Americans …….. Muhammad is one of the most common given names in the United Kingdom. Estimates point to the Muslim population of West Europe reaching twenty to twenty-five million by the year 2000. About a dozen Muslim states have chemical and biological war capabilities. Impressive capabilities to manufacture a wide range of materiel have been established in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, and Indonesia. Were it not for the Israeli strike of 1981, Saddam Husain would by now have his finger on a nuclear trigger………………. High Muslim birth rates already drive politics in the two non-Muslim states of the Middle East. Christians lost control of Lebanon after Muslims became a majority there. The challenge of maintaining a Jewish majority lies near the heart of the Israeli political debate; the local Muslim population keeps up a fertility rate of no less than 6.6 children per woman (1981 estimate). Muslim densities are particularly notable in some cities. London is home to a million Muslims and they make up ten percent of the population in Birmingham, the second largest city of Great Britain From: Jomhuri-ye Islami, (a Tehran daily newspaper), "Westerners have correctly understood that the world movement of Islam is the biggest threat to the 'corrupt Western empire………. Muslims must prove how the world movement of Islam can defeat the West". From: Ali Akbar Mohtashemi, (a leading Iranian hardliner), "The world in the future will have several powerful blocs. The Islamic power will play a decisive role in this.... Ultimately Islam will become the supreme power." From: Harunur Rashid Tipu (editor of a Bengali-language newspaper in England) "the leaders of the Young Muslim Organisation, seek ultimately to build an Islamic society here." From: a study by John R. Weeks, countries with large numbers of Muslims have a crude birth rate of 42 per thousand; by contrast, the developed countries have a crude birth rate of just 13 per thousand. Translated into the total fertility rate, this means 6 children per Muslim woman, 1.7 per woman in the developed countries. The average rate of natural increase in the Muslim countries is 2.8 percent annually; in the developed world, it is a mere 0.3 percent.

Bailey

To try and understand why we do not stand up to this kind of treatment by Muslims read this timely interview of....... Kenneth Levin, a clinical instructor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, a Princeton-trained historian, and a commentator on Israeli politics. THE WEST'S OSLO SYNDROME http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=210F9FFC-9E28-4D9C-84E2-527D6679B4A8

Water

Thanks for the stats Helen and the websites very handy indeed. The vast majority of the stats do not give much cause for concern (it is just natural to grow) but two things you said seemed to be rather poignant: (1) “Saddam Hussein would by now have his finger on a nuclear trigger” I could see why this would concern you but it hasn’t happened and he was a very bad example of a Muslim. (2) As for the comment from Harunur Rashid Tipu that "the leaders of the Young Muslim Organisation, seek ultimately to build an Islamic society here” but the point is that they would still be British so it would still be a British society. Also (and this is just a question I mean no harm to anyone) though they claim to represent all young Muslims do they really? I do not know but it seems to be a point worth pondering after all there are a lot of societies of Asian inclination that do not represent me in any way though could easily be misinterpreted as being somehow related to an Asian such as myself.

Water

Bailey nice article and because he is of course Kenneth Levin I do not claim to be an academic equivalent by any means. Also from what Sartre would say about the most common cause of all psychasthenic ailments being grounded in fear his points seems logically concise, as the old saying goes fear controls. But I would still disagree with him on the grounds that though attention needs to be paid to the few Muslims who behave in a harmful fashion that this is no way indicative of the Muslim community as a whole. On the whole I think the British public at least feel that way hence the reason why people act in the way that they do, not because their cognitive functions are impaired in any fashion.

Ann

"why are they not standing up to the bullies, and using physical responses to their violence?" - to all those who expressed similar sentiments, all I can say is: Quite right! If the police will not protect people, then something like the JDL can - and should - take its place.

Ann

And why not, Jean, pray? To state "You just cannot" is rubbish. One can. And as someone has said, the current situation simply invites a terrible backlash. --- Helen: yes, let's have some links. But I am afraid your accurate analysis will not convince Nazis and idiots.

Murad

Bravo Albion, GB, UK. So selfless and altruistic country I have never seen in my life. People from all over the world are coming and grabbing their acres, one at a time. Mind you, this is my place and others, except Muslims, are not allowed to treaspass. This EXCELLENT policy is achieved in Britain only after the politicians shed the mantle of Christianity and its EVIL values. This is a PROOF, excellent proof that democracy works and only in the WEST. Bravo Britain Bravo. You are going to get daffodils and poppies for your unimaginable achievements. Can Saudi Arabia, The Backward Country, do that. NO. NO. NO. Because they are stupid and undemocratic. And treat their women badly. Only in a democracy your country slips away while you are sleeping. Oh dear. I know I know you would not have let Britain be grabbed by YOUR enemy had you had enough wits. But there is no cure for stupidity. Mrs Patterson, a British professor, who taught English in Baghdad in 1960s, would say: You don't have to eat the whole egg. to know that it is gone bad. Only a portion is enough. That is what Britain is doing. Losing one church and one vicar, is enough to turn things around. They have cold nerves and sharp minds. Bravo Britain. Are you leaving to reside in other countries? Oh it is because darkness never leaves GB. Oh sorry small, teeny-tiny England.

Austin Barry

So here we are then, London 2008. The tipping point comes closer.

Water

With ref to Murads comment “Can Saudi Arabia, The Backward Country, do that. NO. NO. NO. Because they are stupid and undemocratic.” But we are talking about British Muslims who. British Muslims are very different ‘on the whole’ who have grown up in a democratic environment and appreciate the democratic way of living. If you are going to judge a community look at the whole not the few and on the whole the Muslim community in Britain is good. “And treat their women badly. Only in a democracy your country slips away while you are sleeping” I do not think people are sleeping the very fact that we have talks like this are due to the fact that people realise there are a ‘few’ trouble makers. Though these trouble makers are few in number compared to Muslims on the whole who are good natured because they are religious. “Mrs Patterson, a British professor, who taught English in Baghdad in 1960s, would say: You don't have to eat the whole egg. to know that it is gone bad. Only a portion is enough.” She sounds like a wise woman but these days you do not need to eat the egg at all because we have advanced as a society. This said regardless of what ever screening process you put in place to route out such people a few will remain. This is not to say we should let such people off likely they need to be routed out. But Britain/England is by no means lost to Muslims; the numbers of Muslims are few in comparison to the rest of the Christian populace (some of whom are Asian as the Daily Mail article quite clearly shows) in the British Isles. To relate back to the original article in the Daily Mail (as understood by the link above) "Clearly the Muslim community is very shocked. These individuals were under the influence and this was a random act" if it can be admitted that Muslim people are shocked then this shows that such behaviour is not condoned by the Muslim community and therefore on the whole they are not bad people. Also this comment “Losing one church and one vicar, is enough to turn things around” it is true that the man shouldn’t have been hurt on any grounds and my deepest sympathies are with him and his family. But in the spirit of staying in touch with the facts the man has not been lost he has not been killed, this of course in no way justifies the act but the man has not been lost he is not dead! Of course he took a beating he did not deserve (and that is illegal and in no way justifiable) but he has not been lost or killed, being a man of God he is probably very much found. Also in hope of remaining fair and true to the facts the article also states: “The Bishop of London, the Rt Rev Richard Chartres, said clergymen who were part of the community were ‘vulnerable’ to attacks. ‘Over the years we've had murders, we've had assaults on clergy,’ he said. ‘Therefore we have over the past few years been beefing up our security and operations.’" But if you read the article it does of course infer there have been murders in the vicinity of the church in question but there is no comment which explicitly relates the murder to being in any way “faithhateî” crimes. When the reverend states we have had murders you have to ask yourself does he mean with relation to the church or within the community that he stands for? Because he does go on to say (in a logical fashion that) “of course if you go out into the streets, if you belong to the community, if you're a part of it, then you are vulnerable” vulnerable yes to the youths within the inner city community as a whole, not a whole faith of people! The ‘youth’ of today whether they call themselves Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews and what have you are increasingly becoming more morally devoid within inner cities and out side to boot! Lastly of course Britain is small hence why as brits (and even those who are not and are here) need to be very careful not to handle her in a blasé fashion because the smaller a thing is (when it is fragile) the easier it is to damage.

James_in_Chicago

You are lost. My condolences. You gave up. I no longer acknowledge my english ancestry. Your once proud ancestry, from the PICTS, ANGLES, JUTES, SCOTS, ANGLO-SAXONS, PLANTAGONATES, NORMANS and yes, immigrants that ASSIMILATED to WESTERN values. But no more. You have let the invaders dictate to you how to live and where not to go. How sad. FIGHT BACK! Vote out the appeasers. If you don't, you will be oppressed in the future.

M Clyde

Larry B writes: 'Give Britian to Ireland, and watch this islamo-facist mess evaporate overnight. CHRISTIAN peace albeit Catholic will rein in the British Isles. If you are not willing to protect and defend your faith, pass it on to others who will. ' Dream on!!! Dublin is host to the European Institute for Fatwa Research, a Muslim Brotherhood front linked to Yusuf Al Quardawi. This is an Islamist Trojan horse with an agenda to Islamise and colonise these isles with their retrograde 7th century non-Christian faith. As I have been warning of for some time, Islamists are using the Celtic fringe to infiltrate these islands, the aim, I guess, to undermine the UK, but they won't stop there. Why don't you kick out this Institute in Dublin? The Irish government are as pathetic liberals as here.

Frank Pulley

Oh dry up, Water! Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

Thomas

It was smart to put the Hagia Sophia in your piece. Constantinople was a holy, majority Christian place until the Ottomans took over, and now the minority Christian population gets harassed constantly. I hope this doesn't happen in London

Water

Frank Pulley you’re irrefutably fabulous! If you consider me a gentleman then I can ask for no more. As per your wishes I will pause, for even I need a breath after fathoming all this water. Though in the immortal words of Governor Schwarzenegger “I’ll be back” darlings ;)

Naomi Bevan

'Pinch yourself. This is Britain.' Is Melanie Phillips aware that Britain is now a multicultural society? and that its economy thrives on the input of immigrants from all over the world? including muslims? her heavily biased article neglects to inform that muslims are persecuted too, on a daily basis all over Britain. Racism comes from all colours, creeds and religions. Something miss phillips, and the rest of us, would do well to remember.

Naomi Bevan

oops my comments went on wrong article!

Jon_Boy

Please Naomi Bevan try and develop some sense of self preservation. For when this all goes wrong other countries eg USA will not come to your rescue. Also I will not lift a finger to help you either. In fact I will advocate a change in policy before it is too late and if that doesn't work try my best to up sticks and move to a country that has a small and insignificant Muslim population. By the way I will not expect you to try and take my ticket out either. In fact Naomi I think you and others of your opinion should be made to hand in their passports and sign a lawfully binding contract that will prevent you or your imediate descendents from ever claiming asylum in another country. I mean if you advocate something then you should at least be made to put up with the consequences of that decision.

Bob Gray

Don't worry Naomi - stupid comments are irrelevant to any article.

Dave

Helen Oster:AAhhh, 2020. Fair enough. Still does seem amazing that the majority will be Muslim in Birmingham by 2020. From 14% to over 50% in just over ten years. Really? A majority non-white population quite possibly. But there's still a strong White-English culture here. And perhaps things will have be revised in the face of a huge number of white Polish immigrants! ;-) Come and visit. From your posts one could draw the impression that Birmingham is about to become a city where the calll to prayer rings from the rooftops and all the woman have to wear the hijab. It's not the case at all.

Helen Oster

Dave I lived & laughed & loved in Birmingham; I studied at University in Birmingham; I worked in Birmingham - and I watched the changes through the late 70s & 80s. I moved to London in the early 90s where I met my husband, & then out to St Albans. One July morning my husband was running late & missed his usual Thameslink train into London. Thank G-D he did, because otherwise he might not be here now.... We now live in Israel, where believe it or not, we actually feel safer! So, now you have a picture? Rampant Zionist? Land stealer, maybe? Whatever; the point I am so desperately trying to get across, is that Muslim fundamentalism is not confined to the Meddle East, it is not all the result of Israel's actions - and when push comes to shove, the fact that blessed "multicultural Britain" welcomed in people with a sworn determination to kill & maim all those who disagree with them; all the efforts by the politically correct establishment to remove Christ from Christmas (along with Christmas lights & Christmas cards); all the hand-outs of benefits, housing etc won't make any difference. Whilst I appreciate that for many people the mass immigration of Poles may be viewed with horror, it may be a last chance to grab back and re-establish some Christian values in Britain.

Wasim Ashiq

Muslim bashing again. The article doesn't mention what religion or cultural background the youths came from. Please act like a proper and reposinsible journalist, at least sometime. This is very poor journalism indeed.

wahida Shaheen

This story of youths picking on a group becuase of their religious orientation reminds me of when I was a child and went to mosque ater school. My brotehrs, I and the other Muslim kids were regularly subjected to a chase and sometimes beating from kids we knew from our respective schools. Our parents complained to the school(s) as we could identify the kids, but the school refused to take action becuase the attacks happened after school. The police was regularly called, but often didn't turn up and when they did told the Imam nothing could be done, becuase no one was caught in the act. So the Imam regularly waited outside the mosque to esnure our safe passage. The reason I relay this story is becuase even as a child I knew that the conduct of this minority didn't constitute in any way the view of the majority. So stop trying to stir up hatred amongst a successfully diverse East End community its loosing battle Mel. And which reports suggests the youths were Muslim? You making things up again? Stop Muslim bashing its sad and ridiculous.

Ann

Thanks to those last two comments, I have seen the light. Of course: it was those pesky Jews and Buddhists joining forces and ganging up on vicars. After all, those two groups are notorious in Britain for being violent thugs. And was that a pink elephant just flying past my window?

Helen Oster

Ann My heroine!!! Helen

Helen Oster

Wahida / Waseem and of course, Jews & Hindus make a practice of charging up to vicars screaming: "This should not be a church, this should be a mosque, you should not be here”. Maybe you didn't actualy read Melanie's article?

Herbert Thornton

Larry B's notion of giving Britain to the Irish might have been more plausible in an earlier era. One of my Irish friends assures me that the state of Catholicism in Ireland nowadays is not what it was. He tells me, for example, that most of the nunneries have been converted into homes for unmarried mothers.

Perhaps a better solution would be to ensure that Turkey joins the EEC and then invite the Turkish army to expand and impose secularism throughout Europe?

DBCJohn

There are at least two gangs of young Bangladeshis who hang out near St George’s in the East, one based around Cannon Street Road and one just across The Highway in Wapping. They are racist little thugs who delight in assaulting middle aged white men. One friend of mine has had dealings with them, I have been kicked and spat at by them (until some older Bangladeshi youths chased them off and came over to see if I was ok), and I have had one patient who was assaulted by a similar gang in Stepney Green. These louts are as much into Islam as black youth gangs are into Christianity. They do not dress in an identifiable Muslim way, owing more to ‘rapper’ fashion sense. It is entirely possible that they or similar were behind the assault and their anti Christian taunts were gratuitous insults rather than evidence of an impending anti-Christian program.

Dr AF

As a christian asian I know this is not reflextive of all British muslims and I have many muslim friends who would be very angry about this. The only way to stop it happening is for Imams and the parents of these youths to denounce strongly this behaviour. You get bad apples in all religions. However in east London unemployment is high and this leads to gang membership, alot of the street violence in London is due to frustration rather then anything else.

Ann

"The only way to stop it happening is for Imams and the parents of these youths to denounce strongly this behaviour" --- or, perhaps, for the police to take strong action? Or would you rather we continued to pussyfoot around these disgusting thugs and treated them with 'tolerance' because they are not white?

MissJ

This is no surprise. I have been following British blogs for five or six years and this type of incident was being reported on these blogs long before they ever hit the out-of-touch lamestream media. One website used to track incidents of this sort regularly but was shut down a few years ago, probably because of fears of the webmaster being prosecuted for non-PeeCee thought. Looks like it's okay to vandalize churches and assault churchmen in England these days - it's just not okay to talk about it. As for the people who are asking why the Christians don't fight back -- why would they? They could get accused of "racial incitement" and sent to prison for seven years. They know that the incitement laws really only apply to white Christians. How many "British" Muslims have been charged under the incitement laws again? Thousands marched in your streets with signs screaming "Kill the infidel" and nothing happened to them. Yet I read of stories all the time where white Christians are arrested just for looking cross-ways at a Muslim. For god's sake, save your country and your culture! You have given more to the world than the Muslims, that is for sure.

Vivas

Yet more poorly researched nonsence from Melanie Phillips and an opportunity to have a cheap shot. If you had looked into the story in greater depth you would know that the youths that attacked the Canon were all drunk at the time. In fact the Canon's wife is on the record as stating as saying that the attack was not racist but the result of the youths being drunk and violent. To put a racist slant on it like you have done, has completely changed the story. But then drunken youths attacking someone isnt a story any more, is it? The fact is this story shows that we need to being doing more to reign in the youths in this country whatever their race or creed.

Wahida Shaheen

Let me bring some balance to this debate, before the Muslim bashing gets any more grotesque. Muslims and mosques are also under regular attack. In this link http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/muslim-leaders-warn-of-mounting-islamophobia-after-attacks-on-mosques-498493.html an Imam explains how vandalism of mosques has got much worse over the 40 years he has been in the UK. So, do I start blaming Christian or Jewish delinquents? No, even though they could be Jewish or Christians who just hate Muslims, I take the sane view that if you are disillusioned enough to attack a place of peace and worship, you need help.

DBCJohn

I agree with Vivas, check the story out on the East London Advertiser web site. The youths were drunk and / or on drugs, all round strong condemnation and call for police action, information to be given to the police etc. from mosques and other Muslim groups. Drive on folks, there’s nothing to see.

Geoff Fox

Wahida Shaheen, stop making pathetic excuses for these people. They hate Christians and want to turn the UK into an Islamic state, period. Such attacks on Christian clergy are coordinated and are a stark warning to us all: the Islamists are here to conquer and subjugate.

malcolm

I forgot, can someone please tell me, why the UK is allowing this sort of immigration to occur in the first place? Oh that's right "diversity is our strength".

HebburnLad

Wahida Shaheen: The link you posted was from July 12th 2005. Five days after a group of Muslims killed over fifty people in the English capital. And why suggest only Jews or Christians might be responsible for these attacks (from three years ago)? How about pagans, polytheists, gays and apostates? Or secular humanists, atheists and feminists? Okay, you can forget the last lot as they'd be too busy blaming themselves, but you get the picture, don't you? Islam's enemies are many and varied. It created them.

Dave

Helen Oster: Well I'll take that as an admission that your facts are wrong. And what sort of "changes" did you have in mind when talking of 80s Brum? Must be lovely to live in Israel. Great weather! I don't judge you for it. Removing the Christ from Christmas? "Merry Christmas Birmingham" strung up in lights all over this great city a few months ago. And our St George's day parade is rather fantastic too.

London Calling

The youths who attacked Canon Michael Ainsworth were more likely to be British Hindu's and not Muslim. Its no more easier to pick out a Muslim or Hindu in asia than it is to pick out a Christian in Europe or America, therefore it has been 'Assumed' these youths were Muslim and sounds like someone saying that everyone who has black skin is a mugger.
Dont be so Ignarontus people, these youths are everywhere on our streets in Britain and they don't care about anyone or anything, this attack was rare, but lobbing stones and smashing windows and damaging property is widespread and yes churches,mosques and synagogues are no exception. Sad but true.

Ludvig

DMDavies: Museum: yes, secular: no.

Benjamin Sefton

Where are the police? Filling forms in or stopping motorists. We have the police we deserve. The country is fast becoming a bannana republic. The government can't govern, the police can't police, the NHS can't cure, schools can't educate, parents can't parent etc etc etc

dave

I hope that the next time a gang of drunken white lads beat up a man of the church Melanie will write a piece about how white people are turning on the church etc etc. Or, she could consider that some people are just drunken, violent idiots and a mild mannered man of the church makes an easy target, regardless of race. A sad story, surely, but not a portent of doom.