Talking to terrorists

Alcuin

Point 3 is the clincher. But even when any rational people would acknowledge a stalemate, the likes of Hamas will not - their spite is so deep rooted that they would rather die than make peace. Such is jihad, and it may be that a solution along the lines of that which disposed of the Assassins is called for.

Powell is like Malloch-Brown, a complete waste of protoplasm.

Howard

Powell was and is right. Talks will happen with Hamas etc and may have already. I have mentioned this on your blog previously. What will not happen is the admission that they have. Your point about the IRA having a perfectly reasonable position also must logically apply to other organisations as well then? Your point 3 is complete rubbish as applied to the IRA. The IRA did not acknowledge the "war is over" when talks started and far from it. Also they took place at the Governments initiative not the IRA's. Also you fail to point out the the US were putting huge pressure on the UK to settle with the IRA in the 70's and beyond.

Thinkster

It gets worse...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7299888.stm

Sounder

To reward children while in a tantrum is likely not accepted by anyone, well, except for terrorists.

London Calling

We must embrace our enemies as our friends and yes indeed keep them closer, but this takes wisdom,patience and virtue, but most of all a new kind of mediation and intellect that mankind has never known on mass. There is nothing particularly controversial about Jonathan Powell's words, for if you put your ear to the ground you will hear the voices of the multitudes of peoples who want change also and a positive way forward. Who is brave enough to lead the way? let the brave rise and be heard before we shout them down, otherwise we have shut our ears to the truth.

Ian C

Why must we embrace our enemies as our friends, London Calling? If there is nothing controversial about Powell's views then why do the points made by Melanie and others have resonance? Explain yourself. You have stated a point of view without substantiation.

Ed Lancey

Howard, If I were you I would be wary of using the term "logically" as you are clearly incapable of understanding the non-negotiable aims of "Al Qaeda" or Melanie's 1st point. Indeed, if anyone should take credit for the NI peace process it should be "Al Qaeda" since before the dust settled in lower Manhattan the IRA knew their fund-raising and back-slapping tours of the USA were over.

phil

London et al -we all know that to make peace one must make it with ones enemies,not ones allies ,but please try to understand these people do not want peace, they would rather die -their words not mine -it would be used once again as propoganda that the useless west are crawling to these militants -sorry lovely idea a bit resonant of Neville Chamberlain

N. Simon

The IRA never promised world domination, nor did they threatened to obliterate any other religion off the face of the earth.

The Islamic terror groups ie Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hizbollah, Fateh, etc., ALL promise that when the Saturday people are finished off, then they will start with the Sunday people.

Frank Pulley

Ed Lancey; excellent comment; the real reason for the IRA capitulation is hardly ever emphasised. However, whether their 'capitulation' was good or bad for either Ireland or the UK is the stuff another debate. They are wielding more power in 'peace' than they did during the troubles and the resistance to their mafia-like cartel and their leftist ideology is no longer being resisted. The price of peace is often too high and one wonders who really capitulated.

Helena

I think it was David Trimble who wrote a pamphlet a while ago detailing why the IRA and jihadist causes are so uncomparable. Do check it out if you get the chance. It's pure cant to try to align the two. The fact that Powell was so close to a British Prime Minister and holds views like this is simply terrifying.

London Calling

Making peace with the IRA stopped the terrorist bombs in mainland Britain,did it not? and brought both sides to the political table regardless of the generation's of hatred towards British rule in Northern Ireland, and that was a major achievement and a turning point in our history. No one is saying paradise was acheived, however the bombing stopped and that was the ultimate goal for all those involved in the peace talks (behind the scenes). Ian C, the reasons the views of Melanie's and others resonate here is because you have given up hope and therefore do not see peace,even though you know of it. The biggest mistake Britain made,was to alienate the ordinary British Muslim's following 9/11 and 7/7 and the biggest mistake the British Muslims made was not speak out loud enough and denounce the Islamic Extremist's in their communities. The problem is more complex for me to fully express here, but if you take a closer look into the religious structure within the mosques across Britain, you will find that the majority of Muslim's are unable to voice their views to each other or their religious leaders for fear of being cast out from their communities or accused of disrespecting traditional Islamic teachings. Who better to embrace these people then,than us, the wider community? If pressure for peace cannot come from within then it must come from without. We should be supporting and demanding reconciliation and this is only achieved by talking,for we are stronger together, than apart. We need to make a case for peace first by resolving the current suffering on both sides in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict without judging the past. The first step in my view would be to help the ordinary Palestinians,as I stated in my previous post's, as this in truth is at the heart of the discontent felt by Muslims towards Israel worldwide. The Islamic Extremists have hijacked Islam by exploiting religious doctrine within the text of the Koran. I am sure if we decided to take the Old Testament apart we would also find a vengeful God who encourages the faithful to make war with their enemies and is against homosexuality etc. The commandments then contradict this by stating 'Thou shall not Kill'. Phil I do not follow the words of Neville Chamberlain, I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, because learning to love one another sure beats killing each other, Happy Easter to you. all

EyeSee

In NI the Army had held their line, the terrorists got fed up with getting nowhere and the people were turning against them anyway. Hence admitting the war was over. At this point, ace opportunist and lightweight ne'er do well, Tony Blair stepped in and allowed them to save face, by giving them substantial concessions and power for no gain whatsoever. As far as global terror is concerned Blair had been trying to find someone to surrender to since the off. So, far from feeling that the strength of will of the West cannot be broken, they daily receive signals, such as Powell's (though other cowards abound in postions of power) that we will never consider fighting for what we believe in. Oh they might send soldiers to die, careless of their welfare, in foreign lands. But a Muslim murderer in our midst? We would be most worried that he wasn't getting all the benefits he could.

Tara

London Calling you are off your rocker – again. ‘Peace’ – if it could even be called that – was achieved by riddling the IRA full of informants and making its army virtually inoperable. This could never be said out loud because it was important not to get their tails up by rubbing their noses in it. While that left the political wing of the IRA, Sinn Fein, with little room for manoeuvre but to start talking it has not stopped the IRA from remaining as a vampire presence throughout Northern Ireland. They are a nighttime mafia whose presence the media would rather not acknowledge because that would be to undermine the ‘peace’. You certainly won’t get the residents of Northern Ireland to scream and shout about it because they’re terrified. Watch the door, as they (still) say. Moreover, Northern Ireland is about a piece of land. It was not about taking over Westminster, changing our laws, our finance industry, our attitude to free speech and everything else. This is why the nightclub fertiliser bomb conspirators referred to their would-be victims as ‘bitches’. As for this bit of drivel: “The biggest mistake Britain made was to alienate the ordinary British Muslim's following 9/11 and 7/7”. Wrong again. The reason why we have so many Islamist hotheads tearing about the place is because post 9/11 they were simply grovelled to. Of all the countries in Europe ours is the one that has done the most to accommodate Islamist hotheads (which is why so many of them head here in the first place).

Geoff Miller

I watched this robot on the Marr show and was amazed at the simplicity of his arguments. What is very worrying is that there are any number of "Student Grants" like him influencing government policy right now. The IRA, however vile they are, had a defined objective with which accomodation could be reached whereas Islamists will only accept our total surrender and subjugation to Islam. Any accomodation with these people can only lead to the loss of our freedom and, ultimately, the death of Western civilisation.

osama

There is no peace in Northern Ireland, the IRA, in one of its many forms are still active. Gerry Adams made clear that the struggle for a united Ireland is not over. It is a truce.

In 1972 there were 30,000 security personnel in NI, the IRA killed 148 of them in one year (contrast that with 5 years of war in Iraq and our casualties there...not look so bad now by comparison does it?)This was at a time when the government decided on unconditional talks with the IRA...who took that as a sign of weakness...and proceeded to carry out more attacks to intimidate the government more and to force more concessions .

It was only talks with pre-conditions that succeeded in the end...as David Trimble makes clear: Mr Trimble says the Government's approach has been bedevilled by a recurring weakness ever since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement: offers that were "replete with inducements" for republicans but lacking in penalties... Crucially it was soon made clear that there were conditions before they could be an official engagement. The key conditions were later formalised in the Downing Street declaration of 1993 as an end to violence and a commitment to exclusively peaceful and democratic means. Equally important was the government’s commitment to the consent principle and its refusal to act as a persuader for a united Ireland, which prefigured the outcome of the formal inter-party talks, the three stranded structure of which were defined in March 1991 and the key procedural decisions taken by the parties in 1992 in the absence of Sinn Fein. When they called their cessation of their campaign in 1994 republicans were, de facto, accepting these parameters for talks.

Also 9/11 had a tremendous effect on American attitudes towards the romantic Fenians as well as on the Irish government itself as one British senior intelligence source relates: The World Trade Centre bombing changed everything," said one. "It is inconceivable that the Irish government can continue to tolerate terrorist weapons bunkers."

The IRA ran out of Water.

Ian C

If there is anything to talk about with Al Qaeda and other other terrorists then their raison d'etre for being a user of terror will have ceased. So the idea that we have anything to talk to them about until then is only in idealistic dreams. Those who claim the guidance of Christ in this are needing a discerning moral compass of their own. I too am a Christian but Christ would not have us put our fellow men at risk by doing deals with the devil. It is our duty as human beings (and as Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims etc) to stand up for what we believe is right and confront those who have taken power in the communities where extremism is in charge. It takes courage, in fact it takes backbone even, but it certainly cannot require us to talk to anybody who wants a conversation and is prepared to blast and kill his way to the table. The danger is that the extremists acquire a negotiating hand - such as a nuclear capability. It is therefore a very real human requirement that this be prevented at all costs. If that means that we have to go on the offensive against those with such intent, so be it. And if we shy away from it the name of our religion(s), we will be letting humanity down. London Calling I am talking to you especially, but this is what Melanie and the few others with the backbone, the intelligence and platform to make it heard.

Andy Gill

Powell is a fruit-cake. The parallel is not like talking to the IRA, it's like appeasing Hitler -and we know what happened next. And how exactly does talking to Islamofascists support moderate Islam?

Ann

"sorry lovely idea a bit resonant of Neville Chamberlain" - yes, and why do you think his handle is 'London calling'? Says it all, really.

Joe Strummer

The Provisional IRA WERE militarily defeated by the British Security Services in the Province, despite what their British Leftist and liberal cheerleaders would say, and thank God for all of us they were. The IRA and Sinn Fein also were / are to this day STILL riddled with informers. This made their military capacity reduced from regular bombing and violent attacks on the British Army and RUC to random, sporadic long range sniping at patrolling troops. The Blair sops of removing the BA from the Ulster streets, dismantling the RUC, and releasing IRA terrorists helped the IRA save face from the truth of their total capitulation and assist them sell the Peace Process to the hard core remaining thugs in their ranks. However,what we should never forget about the IRA was that despite their supposed Leftist leanings ( for their Gruadian reading sympathisers only ) when back home in Ireland they were/ are an extremist Irish Nationalist Socialist gang with a sickening racist and sectarian agenda. Their mantra of One Nation, One Culture, One Language ( Gaelic ), One Religion ( Roman Catholic ) formed the backbone of the IRA's ideology and still holds true today in the Republican strongholds of Belfast, South Armagh and elsewhere. The IRA were also open collaborators with Nazi Germany during WW2, trotting back and forth to Berlin to receive their orders, their role in the trade off for Nazi arms and other weaponry, being the chosen henchmen to round up Ireland's tiny Jewish community when Hitler's hordes finally overcame British resistance. In fact, the senior IRA commander at the time, Sean Russell, died on a U-Boat off the coast of Ireland during WW2. The IRA were fascist then and still fascist today.

YA

Joe Strummer: you forgot to mention, "Allahu Akbar" means "Paddy is Invincible" in Gaelic.

London Calling

Visualize you have a cut piece of fresh lemon in your mouth (you have to imagine it)... hold that thought for ten seconds, by which time your mouth will begin to water, the reason being that (only if you have tasted a lemon before) your mind has just tricked the senses in your mouth into believing that you have a real lemon in your mouth, because your mind does not know the difference between what is real and what is not, that is why your mouth watered. The point to my story is that you cannot imagine the smell of the sweet rose and suck a lemon at the same time. Bitterness reigns sadly, whatever is in your minds is your making, I know what’s in mine. I have been accused of crawling out of the woodwork, having a Neville Chamberlin handle in London, off my rocker, giving Christianity a bad name. keep the Lemon pips coming my way, I can always plant them in the vineyard, next to my sweet rose.:) just remember, the truth will set you free.

George Steiner

Do you remember the dying words of VanGogh? Not that one, the one who was a bit cut up by a "youth" in Amsterdam, "can't we talk it over." Keep it in mind as you chat-up your terrorists.

R. Supwards

London Calling: "I have been accused of crawling out of the woodwork, having a Neville Chamberlin handle in London, off my rocker, giving Christianity a bad name." Don't worry about LC I think that Comrade Williams got there way before you did. This lot believe, quite rightly, that you cannot fight intolerance with tolerance. Do you really think it is better to turn the other cheek? Happy Easter.

phil

London the many Irish friends I have always tell me the IRA gave up because they realised they could not win ,not because we made peace that just followed logically -you tell us that you folow your religious teaching and we must respect that ,but to turn the other cheek is a wonderful idea ,sadly in these terrible days it does not seem to work.I accept if we all followed our religions we would be at peace but the militants do not concur. T he problem for the Muslim community is not us, most of us get on happily with them ,it is the militants who terrorise them and make them afraid to speak out -I JUST WISH THEY WOULD MARCH ON lONDON TO SAY "NOT IN MY NAME"in the same way they did against the war ,butI am sure fear will stop it .I go along with Ian C -his post makes sense to me .May I reciprocate your good wishes for a happy Easter

Commondog

Oi. London Crawling. You're brilliant mate. What I want to know is: why, when there is such a dearth of good comedy writers these days, are you not raking it in. I don't know about lemons, but your comments must be made, tongue firmly in cheek.
Do some more......aw go on

Joe Strummer

YA If you mean Paddy being the PIRA, well yes,Paddy May Be Invincible....but not enough so to overthrow democracy in Northern Ireland. Talking to terrorists, whether it be the IRA or Muslim fanatics only demeans the freedom loving and democratic and gives the fascist a credibility where none should ever be present.

Verity

George Steiner - Excellent point. Very telling.

say no more

When they say we must "talk to" Hamas, they really mean "give money to", as we do with Fatah and have been doing for years.

Mad Mike

An Israeli intelligence officer had dealings with Irish Special Branch. His interlocutor was a big, rugby playing fellow who immediately observed 'don't you worry, we know about terrorism from the Provos'. The Israeli asked what the PIRA thought of first when planning a mission. 'Their get-away'. After some reflection on Hamas and Hizbollah suicide bombers, the Irish detective concluded: 'No, we'll keep the Provos, and you can keep Hamas and Hizbollah'. How very, very worrying that supposedly smart men like Jonathan Powell still operate under the delusion that they can bargain with Al Qaeda- a syndrome that extends well into the FO and MI6 too.

Ann

Powell isn't 'smart'. Powell is a typical apparatchik with a university degree, hardly the same thing. He has the sort of low political cunning combined with sharp elbows that gets other wastes of protoplasm (Livingstone, Prescott, Blair - both of them, .....) into positions of power. That is far removed from being intelligent.

Lynne T

I find it very heartening that German Chancellor Angela Merkel, in her address to the Israeli Knesset, not only spoke of the special obligation owed by Germany to Israel's security, but also took the position that it was Hamas's continued rocket barage that was standing in the way of any peace negotiations and not Israel's refusal to negotiate with Hamas. And boy, to be a fly on the well when Ahmadinejad gets wind of her speech.

London Calling

Commondog I am deeply honored to be compared to something that has 'crawled out of the woodwork', as my home on a disused river barge in the London Docklands has an extremely good view of my London, But I think you fail to appreciated how hard it is for a worm to wiggle his way up Canary Wharf and into Elsie’s office and then head bang away my messages on Sebastian’s keyboards whilst he takes a quick smoke break., just to educate you guys from a street level , I’m gutterly proud. For your information I do write comedy, my latest masterpiece is titled ‘No Parking. No Smoking, No Laughing,’ The only problem is, by the time I get it to ‘The Kings Head’ Islington with my wiggle, ‘No Laughing’ would have already been passed through the House of Lords. The joke’s on you buddy……He who laughs last, laughs the loudest ….. On a more serious note (yes Worms can be serious) I think you have misunderstood my expression of embracing ones enemies and talking to terrorist's, so re-read my posts and you will find that the ordinary Muslims are not our enemies (although many perceive them to be) and it is them we should embrace as friends, is what I meant. Regarding talking to terrorist, (mediators) must attempt it, how else are we to get close enough to the enemy to infiltrate their weaknesses and networks,that is why we must keep them closer. Honestly, you guys need to take more Omega 3,6,9, with your star bucks.

field

I'm sorry to have to employ the Nazi analogy but I really feel it is relevant. I've just seen JP speaking on TV. He seems to have little understanding of AQ ideology. He seems to think their demands (e.g. Western troops out of Saudi Arabia and re-establish the Caliphate) are disconnected and unrealistic. He offers no evidence for that view. Of course these demands aren't disconnected and are in fact simply a reflection of standard Islamic teaching about the Land of Islam and the Land of War (i.e. the land outside the control of Islam). So they aren't disconnected. Are they unrealistic? Of course not. They actually achieved the removal of troops from Saudi Arabia (which only goes to show that it was never a single defining grievance, since AQ terror campaign continues). There is nothing implausible in the idea of a ruling supranational Caliphate. If the West were to withdraw from the Middle East, there is no reason to think AQ couldn't retake Afgahnisatn with the Taliban as allies, gain a major base in Iraq, and topple Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, enabling it in effect to re-establish the Caliphate. No doubt in the 1920s Hitler's demands seemed a little disconnected. But eventually we saw there was a connection between say reclaiming the Saar and murdering millions of Jews.

Wake Up

Let's see if i've got this right. There's some guy sitting in a cave somewhere, getting his turban in a twist over some cartoons. What a loser. Why would we waste time talking to him ?