Not with a bang...

Verity

"... provides a high-level platform for yet more mind-bending dissimulation." Indeed.

Geert Wilders is a hero. He is under 24 hour protection because he has opinions that the muslim establishment in Europe and Britain don't approve of.

And how willingly the Western media have allowed themselves to be whipped, while they cower with their tails between their legs, in countries that previously defended freedom of speech as a natural right.

The British press, that robust, outspoken, rollicking defender of freedom of speech uttered didn't print one cartoon. France did. Jordan did. Sweden did. Mexico did. But not Britain.

Anders Fogh, the prime minister of Denmark is another hero. He refused to meet with the islamic delegation that demanded a meeting with him to discuss how get an apology for the Danish press running the cartoons, saying words to the effect, "The Danish prime minister has no authority over the Danish press." Story. End. of. He didn't even give them the "face" of a show meeting with them. A simple "nej".

It is baffling how such a comparatively small group of aggressive individuals have been allowed to subvert ancient freedoms. I keep thinking there must be an agenda behind such a senseless,apologetic surrender of Western values.

A Chaffey

For once I very much share your main concern. There should be no compromises on freedom of speech. And aside perhaps from "A more stellar display of brazen sophistry on the one hand and intellectual cravenness" was there less over-blown language than normal?

ECS

My grand daughter, age 10, has already noticed how "certain other children" get away with murder in class because the teachers are scared of these kids and their fathers who turn up the next day to protest. So acting supine starts in school. One can imagine the hand-wringing grovel that went on in that conference. Hope that Geert's film is viewed by millions on U-Tube where he plans to launch it. we have a duty as freedom lovers to visit when it's launched.

JB

Every time you kick the can down the road, the price of appeasement increases. What happens when scientists are told evolution offends Islam? Will universities acquiesce and rein in academic freedom? What happens when governments are told homosexuality offends Islam? Will governments acquiesce and deny gays the protection of the law? What happens when legislatures are told democracy offends Islam, will elected representatives quietly abandon their posts and go home? The bell tolls for thee.

YA

sorry all, the subject of "freedom or speech" looks a bit.. childish. Let us call spade the spade, this is classic "softening" strategy - aimed at disrupting communication, keeping opposition not united and "masses" disoriented; next steps will be, an increase of "activism", disturbing and spectacular violence, and eventually, enforcement of appeasement/dhimmitude paradigm. Worked in Tehran, worked in Basra, worked in Beirut, worked in Gaza, Islamabad, you name it. Would it work in London, Paris? Who knows.. one thing is certain - it won't work in Jerusalem against Jews, because of one simple reason, a wall of repugnancy and distrust, - not a nice thing by itself but.. but body armor isn't Gianni Versace, you know..

London Calling

Oh well, I guess I'll have to shelf my latest film script titled 'A Jihad coming to a cinema near you',
a story about a man called Ji, who Had it coming to him, the realization that separation is a an illusion created by Man, and that to kill another, is in truth to kill oneself, this being the first law of respect in Gods Kingdom...... mmmm maybe I wont shelf it after all and be really brave.

David Lodge

Absolutely spot-on, as usual Ms. Phillips! Would that there were more commentators with your spirit, and yes, courage. I despair for us.

James Fox

Ah, Melanie. Another goody. I always open your blogs first before anything else. Your sharp, accurate descriptions seem so obvious. How come those socalled intellectuals either don't see it or just cave in?

Norm

The problem is real free speech doesn't exist anymore in Britain.

Roy

Good news in the form of the truth making headway and starting to filter through. It just takes a few stars to take the lead, print or play the part as they see it and not to be knocked down by the spurious Islamic mafia, and their pretenders.

alex

I wonder if YouTube will play the film. Didn't a Californian site already remove Wilder's site?

Janet

Douglas Murray wrote a good essay on this site a couple of weeks ago, do search for it if you missed it. As for "it comes within the orbit of cultural disrespect" what about disrespect of freedom of speech? Do you only get respect for freedom of speech if it comes with the possibility of death threats and rioting to back it up?

John

I don't agree with anyone defacing a religious book. However, I don't like the double standards with Islam. We let them do what they like here but try and attend or set up a Christian Church in their country and ...! I note that San Francisco (it had to be) had a Jesus Look a like contest recently. No one seems to be concerned but a different story would have emerged if it had been a Mohammed contest.

Barry Larking

"he Islamic violence that erupted, the riots murders and kidnappings, did in turn inflame people against the Islamic world; but this was on account of what that world was itself doing, not on account of some drawings — which were in any event in themselves a protest against Islamic violence in the first place."

As I understand it the 'cartoons were produced by illustrators' who were asked by a Danish newspaper how they would have reacted to being asked to illustrate a picture storybook of Mohammed's life – a quest by the author to find artists having failed miserably, the newspaper stepped in. In one or tow you can see the cartoonists lampooning themselves.

The cartoons then disappeared from view for some time, only to be resuscitated by two mullahs who had been granted asylum in Denmark and taken on a 'world tour' of Islamic capitals.

Can anyone verify this account?

GNO

BTW, did Spectator publish the now (in)famous cartoon?

If not, why not?

Just like charity, does dhimmitude also begin at home?

So much standing up for free speech!

Stray Dingo

If I filmed a documentary in which I tore a page from the Bible and denounced Christ as an evil man what would the MSM reaction be do you think?

No one bats an eyelid when in the name of art someone paints a picture of Christ on the Cross and the urinates on it...in fact it gets put on display in a London gallery.

Ed Lancey

@Barry,

The "Danish" imams actually added a few more "offensive" cartoons that hadn't been published for their 7th century publicity tour, all the better to whip up some tolerance.

London Mike

It will be intersting to compare how easy it will be to view this film in a cinmema, compared with the up and coming film that galloway is assisting to make about the demonisation of the Jews.

Dan

How exquisitely ironic that a film about the fear of islamic violence is not being shown because of the fear of islamic violence.

Verity

ED Lancey - Yes, the original cartoons were so anodyne that they were judged insuffiently incendiary by the refugee imams. So they trawled through the internet to find some really juicy ones, printed them out and slipped them into the portfolio of the Danish cartoons. That's the portfolio they took to the "emergency" conference in Jeddah or wherever.

Lies and deceit are OK in islam. They've even formalised it and given it a name: taqqya and kitman. Anything goes, as long as it is in the cause of advancing islam.

John - Islamic thugs are already entering churches in East London and beating up vicars. I read that vicars in East London had been obliged to abandon their dog collars. Well, we don't want to offend the immigrants, do we?

James Fox - but the "intellectuals" and the left know very well what is happening. They are the ones facilitating it. Have you ever heard William Hague advising appeasement? John Redwood? Michael Gove? Ann Widdecombe?

Appeasement and destabilisation of the indigenous (and long settled immigrant) population, destroying their norms and their links with their history, in the cause of One Worlderism.

The joke, if such it is, is on them. Islam isn't tolerant, and non-muslims won't be spared, whether they were facilitators or not. They're still infidels. I think it will come as a surprise to them that they are not regarded as allies when the crunch comes.

Keith

Cultural disrespect.What rubbish, this is about intimidation and suppression of free speech.Is not Democrophobia about extreme and violent cultural disrespect? How can there ever have been true belief when there is coercion in recruitment and retention of members? Do the non religious have equal rights (including being offended) with the religious or not? Religion in the UK has changed from being a benign and beneficial influence to an imposition and an oppression and with Govt. support is moving towards a tyranny. There is no question that people do not speak out now because they are in fear that the NL Govt. thought Police will knock on their door. If this provocation of the non religious continues I wonder how long it will be before we see the first non religious suicide bomber The majority are becoming incensed about this and I suspect that at the next election being a religious Politician will be a serious vote loser.

Keith

But you can buy Mein Campf easily in the Middle East.

James Forsyth

Verity (2:24): I don’t think such generalisations are all that helpful.

Verity

James Forsyth - It is not my intention to be "helpful", a weasel, NuLabour, judgemental phrase.

However, in the cause of the debate, perhaps you could tell me which generalisation(s) you found "unhelpful"

If it was mention of taqqya and kitman, I am afraid you have no argument because this is a formal islamic term for lying and deceit in the cause of advancing islam. It is formally embedded in their teaching.

That the Danish refugee imams trawled through the internet looking for genuinely offensive cartoons of Mohammad, copied them and included them with the inoffensive Danish ones is very well documented.

Vicars are indeed being beaten up in their churches. There was one the other day, in East London by islamic thugs saying that the church should be a mosque.

This isn't intended to be a confrontational post in response to your own, but I am honestly baffled by your charge.

Phoebe H

As I understand Geert Wilders he is not anti-Islam or anti-Muslim. That is to say he is not against the religion or its followers.

Mr Wilders' position is that he is anti-Koran. Once you've read The Koran and seen what's in it you may well ask why shouldn't he be?

Where is the cultural respect in The Koran's litany of contempt for women, Christians, Jews and other non-believers? Where's the cultural respect in: "Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate"?

How can people talk about cultural respect for this? Cultural respect is a two-way street. Cultural respect for such teachings is a contradiction in terms, and would be treated as such if similar sentiments were delivered outside of Islam, for example, by the BNP.

Why is there one rule for some and another rule for others?

How do you have equality of religion when a religion does not preach equality?

If Islam wants parity with the indigenous religion in Britain, then why is it not prepared to do what the indigenous religion itself did and reform itself - radically?

We don't have people practising Christianity in its 7th Century incarnation, so why should we permit Islam to hold the posture it did in the 7th Century?

It's no surprise that voices of dissent were so scant at this meeting. When you have a culture in which Basil Brush can be investigated for possible "hate crimes", it makes everyone fearful of speaking up.

How many ordinary citizens would even risk having to defend themselves in court with all the time, money and stress involved? Easier to keep quiet, isn't it?

One final thought, I recall the efforts the BBC made against a wave of criticism to broadcast Jerry Springer - the Opera. Personally, I thought nobody had any business trying to ban its critique of Christianity (I struggled to stay awake during it myself), but will the BBC be making similar efforts to broadcast Fitna at any stage?

I won't hold my breath.

DBCJohn

Phobe H 'we don't have people practicing Christianity in its 7th C incarnation'. There are such people - Orthodox Christians.

osama

The film is available online at
www.liveleak.com

Lynne T

Keith:

Yes, Mein Kampf numbers among the few books by non-Arabs that gets translated into Arabic, Farsi and Turkish as does "the Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and then we've got the president of Iran sponsoring Holocaust Denial cartoon festivals, but apparently that's OK, because the most outrageous slander against Jews as an identifiable group of people is an exercise in "free speech", but mocking Mohammed is blasphemy, and criticising some tenets of Islam is "Islamophobic", even if these tenets are in direct opposition to the Universal Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Roy W Brown

I share your views Mme Phillips. When speaking two weeks ago on the dangers of the Islamic States creating their parallel charter of Human Rights - which would undermine the universaluty of human rights as enshrined in the Universal Declaration, and would remove the protection of the International Bill of Rights from people living under Islamic law, I was stopped four times on points of order. On the last occasion the Pakistani Delagate said "It is an insult to our faith to discuss Sharia here in this forum". The forum in question was the plenary of the UN Human Rights Council. If we are to be silenced from criticising potential threats to the universality of human rights in the world's senior human rights body, we will be silenced everywhere.

Harry

DBCJohn, I've missed the contemporary reports on British Christians burning heretics.

Could you furnish me with a hyperlink for that?

Could I also please have a hyperlink for the Christians who've been walking on to tube trains with suicide bombs attached to them?

alex

It's a powerful film.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103

Norman McGreevy

Many web sites are now providing a link to Wilders' short (15 minutes) film. So, without endorsing - or completely disowning, for that matter - Wilders’ film, why don't The Spectator show it?

Gus Stralnic

The fanatics have ruled the silent majority down through history. Dr.Emanual Tanay -"A German's point of view on Islam"
said it well: "History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun."

Verity

The US site which was hosting the film , Network Solutions, has banned it.

Chilling.

Richard

Fitna is now released.

Can be caught on liveleak amongst others - or try littlegreenfootballs.

It tells the story, but will people listen.

look at the BBC article about it - typical!!!!

Martin Woodward

I have just watched Fitna by Geert Wilders and I believe that if we are to have free speech it inevitably means that we need to stand up to the plague that is upon us. And we can only do this by showing support for this work, which, whilst controversial, sadly shows the face of Islam they no longer even bother to hide.

Ricardo

Yes, ECS. You’re not the only person to have become aware of the two-tier discipline system that seems to have unofficially entered our classrooms.

Teachers are now so in fear of being accused of discrimination, they end up discriminating anyway – just in a way that won’t be picked up on by the authorities.

It’s a complete sham and the children who are discriminated against by having their punishments upheld against them are perfectly able to pick up on it.

I wonder if this system that privileges some pupils over others will turn out to be appropriate training for an adulthood of dhimmitude?

Funnily enough, I didn’t see any mention of this issue being dicussed at the National Union of Teachers’ conference last week.

Instead they discussed getting Imams into classrooms.

DBCJohn

Harry - Orthodox Christianity did not go through a Reformation and sticks to the original Nicean creed (without a later addition). As I understand it their beliefs are those of Christians from about the 7th C. As suicide bombing is and was not part of Christian tradition it is not carried out by Orthodox Christians.

I am not sure about the burning of heretics, I seem to recollect the Byzantines went in for facial mutilation (sometimes to disbar the victim of becoming Patriarch of Constantinople), but I may be wrong. Anyway the practice wasdropped, and though they did not go in for mass killing, the Orthodox Church antagonised local Middle Eastern Churches so much that it probably helped the spread of Islam. Though the Orthodox Church in Russia and Greece has a bad attitude to non-Orthodox Churches in those countries, it is fairly humane. The point being that 7 C beliefs are not a necessary indicator of barbarity in the modern age.

Ricardo

DBCJohn, the plain fact is that Christianity underwent a huge reformation in this country so that its mainstream version now bears little resemblance to its many forbears.

You only have to see how divorced it is from the state to acknowledge that.

If the mainstream indigenous religion can reform itself then why not others?

And why not Islam?

DBCJohn

Ricardo - Thank you - religions can reform themselves when the need arises - which is why all encouragement should be given to those who want to reform Islam, otherwise Islamic countries will continue to stagnate.

Without wanting to be pedantic the indigenous religion of this country was what would be callled Orthodox Christianity (and Orthodox Churches in the UK venerate the memory of the pre Council of Whitby British Saints) until the Roman Church imposed itself in the 7C. It is interesting to speculate what would have happened if Britain had not become (Roman) Catholic but retained its British / Celtic identity - no reformation - no age of enlightenment - no industrial revolution - a country like Greece or the Balkans?

gary

never ban a book, ideas, no matter how vile or primative will take on a life of thier own once made forbidden fruit. In the USA mien kumph is in most libraries, it is viewed and dismissed by thousands, but, if it were forbidden the black market value would be out of sight

Verity

James Forsyth - With respect, I asked you yesterday which part of my post you found "unhelpful" and still await a response. I don't think it is fair to simply throw an accusation at someone and then fail to justify it.

I have a feeling that you know little about Islam and have adopted the conventional, centre-left view that it's basically just another form of Christianity and Judaism and that objections to some of its practices are, by some semantic ledgerdemain, "racist".

I would appreciate reading in what manner my entirely rational post, based on facts, was "unhelpful".

CP

The film is on 'Live Leaks'...well done them. All of the commentary comes from the Quran, the radical clerics, their own pictures and Dutch newspaper headlines. There are one or two unattributed written comments at the end. Clever editing, and a nice twist on page ripping, but nothing outrageous at all, other than what comes out of the radicals' mouths themselves. And as expected, they condemn themselves. Clever though.

Celestine

I've just watched Fitna on the web.

I think I've just seen my future.

Thanks Tony Blair, Gordon Brown et al.

field

It's not the most exciting film ever made on Islam but as others have commented it is cleverly put together to make it as difficult for Muslims (especially Jihadist Muslims) who see it to object. They can't object to Koranic verses. They can't object to news footage. They can't object to what their preachers preach. They can only object that it is selective - not exactly the same as blasphemous. Good on yer Geert says I!

You can be sure the Spectator won't show it just as they didn't print the Danish cartoons in solidarity.

The UK media doesn't believe in free speech solidarity.

Tancred

Fitna is now out on the web despite, one host having death threats, having been seeded across the globe in one day!

I have a copy (flv format) and will be disemminating it to evryone I know.

Wahida

After watching and reading a dozen of the interviews given by Geert Wilder I have one over-riding impression of this man, he’s a ranting buffoon, who has the most extreme racists views towards Muslims.

The main thread of his film is that Western culture is more superior than “the retarded Islamic culture”. And that Muslim should not be allowed to live in Europe and if they do they shouldn’t be able to practice Islam.

So this is the man you’re championing as your bastion for all that is good and right? Some of the blogs claim he is their hero, really? It’s all very worrying.

Jane

Wahida, the main thread of Geert Wilders' film is that Islamic culture believes it is more superior than the retarded Western culture - that's why it quotes The Koran.

Verity

Wahida, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "more superior". Superior doesn't work with a qualifier.

Also,you seem not to understand the word "race". There are five large races in the world, and Islam is not one of them. Islam is what, in English, we term a "religion" or a "belief system". The word "race" only applies to, well, race.

That the advanced, enlightened West is superior to all other cultures goes without saying. That is why other cultures copy us, but we don't copy them.

Magpie

What's your problem, Wahida?

All that Mr Geert Wilders has done is bring The Koran to a wider audience:

Surah 8, verse 60
"Prepare for them whatever force and cavalry ye are able of gathering

"to strike terror

"to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies"

Surah 4, verse 56
"Those who have disbelieved our signs, we shall roast them in fire

"whenever their skins are cooked to a turn, we shall substitute new skins for them

"that they may feel punishment:
verily Allah is sublime and wise"

Surah 47, verse 4
"Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers,

"smite at their necks and when ye have caused a bloodbath among them

"bind a bond firmly on them"

Surah 4, verse 89
"They but wish that ye should reject faith

"as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they,

"so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah

"But if they turn renegades, seize them and kill them wherever ye find them

"and take no friends or helpers from their ranks"

Surah 8, verse 39
"Fight them until there is no dissension

"and the religion is entirely Allah's"

Are you saying that these things aren't in The Koran?

Max Kaye

Crikey Verity! I'll have to get up earlier: you keep stealing my words... Your phrase: 'That the advanced, enlightened West is superior to all other cultures goes without saying' should be carved in stone on the portals of all the immigration halls in the country.

alex

Liveleak has pulled the film from its site because of threats of violence made towards their staff. Even the web's Liberty can be attacked....

Carolyn

FITNA, THE MOVIE

http://www.groepwilders.com/Viewdata.aspx?ID=65&CID=4

I feel that it gives a very balanced view on Islam. Everyone should have the opportunity to see it and I cannot imagine why anyone would object to its showing. Mr Wilders never speaks. No personal opinion is ever passed by him. Surely, Muslims should be grateful for his spreading the word about their religion?

I think that Muslims should do their own film, if they wish to dispute Mr Wilder's production, and publish it on the net so that everyone can see that Islam is the "Religion of Peace" that it quite obviously is.

Herbert Thornton

Fifty years ago, I would have endorsed, heartily, the idea that " the advanced, enlightened West is superior to all other cultures".

But now that the west is so infected with Political Correctness Disease and various other social ills, I don't feel quite so sure about it.

When, I look for example at Japan - a country with the good sense to allow virtually no immigration, where Islam has, so far as I know, no foothold, where streets are safe and where national tradition and culture are treated with great respect, I ask myself if the pinnacle of civilisation is, now to be found in the Land of the Rising Sun......

wahida

Magpie

If you want to go by history - we are shown that Jews are the originator of Holy War and murdered/pillaged/destroyed whole civilizations at the behest of God. Christians annialated the Ottoman society and the Crusades were bloodier than any other genocide (including the concentration camps of WWI).

Plus did you know there are sgnificantly more cruel and violent phrases and passages in the Bible than there are in the Quran.

On a positive note here is a verse from the Koran no one can disagree with:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion; truth stands out clear from error" (Sura 2.256).

Verity

Herbert Thornton - you bring up a very interesting point, because Japanese culture has been diluted by the West - in ways too many to iterate - not with people, but ideas imposed on them by the victors of WWII that freed them from Emperor worship.

It remains monocultural, which has allowed it to take foreign lessons on board and benefit mightily from them - and develop them further without any social destabilisation, and which the world was happy to pay for, because they were good. But Japan is monocultural. It has not been forcibly infused with another religion which is antithetic to their own.

Your thought, Herbert Thornton, is very interesting, because it shines a bright light on a culture willingly accepting new ways of thinking and profiting from them, and the multicultural gestapo forcing an alien religion - backward in our terms - down the throats of long established, and long civilised, British and Europeans. And we must ask ourselves, "why"?

We musn't forget that around 1/3 of the globe has as its basis English Common Law. Because it is the freest and the fairest mankind has ever come up with.

I offer this thought.

phil

Wahida if you spent more time complaining to your fellow muslims rather than the rest of us who just wish to live in peace with you , we would all be a lot better off - I seem to remember times not so long ago when there were no troubles between us ,where religion and race did not raise their ugly heads ,then our friend osama decided he would declare war on us and hijack your religion-I repeat he did ,not us and ever since them Muslim news fills the pages every day. attacks by them ,insults to them ,sharia for them,foreign policy offends them ,they fight each other all over the world killing and maiming-do you really think we have no cause for complaint .Most of us just wish you would all get together with us and live peacefully among us as you did before that crazy man ruined both your world and ours -Geert Wilders is a product of your wars against the west not a symptom of racism -you are welcome in my house but sadly I dont think the reverse applies ,so until we change that balance people like Gert will have their say .I complimented you previously in another article for what I thought was your vision of peace but you disappeared into the ether without even an acknowledgement,sometimes a small gesture is a true beginning .

Michael Woodman

All Geert Wilders has done is to show some relevant passages from the Koran; show how these passages underlie incendiary speeches by senior muslims in recent times; and show the implementation of the beliefs inspired by these words in the brutal actions of muslim activists. These are simply facts and yet, due to the very intolerance and brutality to which the film refers, western leaders and commentators are doing their best to evade the obvious truth of the film's conclusions. The muslim anger and threats are not the most depressing aspect of this affair, it's the craven submission to terror and the willingness to see lies displace truth that mark a new low in western civilisation.

Commondog

Wahida
You, in the manner of most history teachers, leave out the best bits of history.
The Crusades were not pre-emptive. They were embarked upon in a desperate response to escalating violence against pilgrims to the Holy Land.
The Ottoman Empire, built through war and pillage, subjected the 'infidel' peoples of Eastern Europe to hundreds of years of suffering.

Both of these truths stand well clear from error.

Belisarius

Wahida: Sura 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion" was superceded by the Doctrine of Naskh (Abrogation) by the Sword Verses of the Koran (Sura 8 "Booty" and Sura 9 "Compulsion"), specifically 9.5: "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." Verse 9.29: "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax (Jizya) and know themselves subdued." Verse 8.39: "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief of non-Moslems) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone in the whole world." In confirmation with these verses of the Koran is the Hadith of Bukhari: "I have been ordered by Allah to fight and kill all mankind until they say 'No God except Allah and Muhammad is the prophet of Allah'". So, too, Hadith Bukhari Vol 9, Book 88, No 174: "I heard the Prophet saying, 'Islam cannot change.'"

Astonishing, the number of Moslems I run into on comments pages who do not appear to know their own Koran and Haditha (which have revelatory status with the Koran according to all five main schools of Islamic teaching).

Verity

From her illiterate English usage, it is obvious that Wahida is not a regular Spectator reader and has been bused in to try to lessen the value of the film made by Geert Wilders, a man of achievement. There is no point in responding to trolls because they come to threads with a mission to caper around and distract attention from the argument.

Belisarius writes: "Astonishing, the number of Moslems I run into on comments pages who do not appear to know their own Koran and Haditha."

It is not so amazing given that the Koran is supposed to be read only in Arabic. How many of these jerks can read Arabic? As we know, they are completely dependent on their imans to explain their Koran to them and many of those imans are themselves ignorant people. The most vivid illustration of this is these Islamic girls who insist on wearing the niqab on public streets and refusing to remove it even to prove their bus pass - and other - identification. They say it is a direct command from Mohammad. Some controlling imams who want women to wear niqabs has filtered this ridiculous notion into their "minds".

Nowhere did Mohammad order women to wear Hallowe'en fright outfits. All he ever said is, women should dress "modestly". He gave the same ruling to men. So this niqab, burqa wearing is absolute rubbish and has no basis in the Koran.

I'd like to propose Phil for Dhimmi of The Month.

Belisarius

Verity, Wahida et al: One need not know Arabic in order to read either the Koran or the supporting Haditha (be warned, the latter run to many volumes, Bukhari ('the gold standard' of Haditha) comprising at least six volumes: it can all be read, in English, with the three most authoritative translations, on the Internet which brings me to my favourite subject: the failure of formerly mainstream media to address honestly and openly the doctrines of Islam and the example of its one and only 'prophet,' the warlord Muhammad. It is the Internet which will deliver the coup de grace to Islam which will not last out this century as either a threat or an ideology of influence. One would scarcely know it if one depended only on Western self-loathing, leftist-agenda driven media, but across the Internet millions are educating themselves about Islam and former Moslems as well as Christian clerics are challenging Moslems constantly, exposing the facts about Islam and subjecting it to the devastating critique and analysis which is necessary to assist peoples presently under Moslem domination into freer states of mind and, hopefully, societies. We will win this 'clash of civilisations' through those rights which our civilisation has repeatedly avowed and fought for: freedom of speech and freedom of conscience.

Verity

Belisarius, thanks for that. I had understood - and please correct me if I'm wrong because I want to argue from an unassailable position - that muslims believe no one can truly encompass the spirit of Islam unless it is read in the original Arabic. That is why so many of them memorise it without understanding a word. That is also why they have competitions for reciting the Koran in Arabic from memory - presumbly hoping to understand it by osmosis, and get extra points for rather violent emoting. I've seen some of them on TV and they make Sarah Bernhardt look like Maggie Smith.

Many in the West have not read the Koran in any language, depending rather on ignorant imams to throw them little nuggets. (This is not to say that there are no scholarly imams. There are.)

You write: "We will win this 'clash of civilisations' through those rights which our civilisation has repeatedly avowed and fought for: freedom of speech and freedom of conscience."

Really? Des Brown wants to start "negotiating" (read "surrendering") with the Taliban. It is the twisted left that will be the end of our civilisation (if we allow it), not Islam.

phil

Thank you for your award verity I am pleased to accept it even from the dummy of the month .Which words can you not understand ,I did write in English I believe ,so one would have expected that even a world champion dummy can realise that the only way out of our rotten situation is to find peace with ones opponents -Insults are from your playground and so far I have seen nothing other than that -How about a little constructive suggestion just to get the ball rolling ,.rather than massaging your own ego -an act that must have gone on for quite some time . I have seen some awful remarks here from time to time from both sides of the arguments but yours are really quite the most disgusting and do nothing to advance your cause .You have managed all on your own to turn Wahida from a person defending her culture in a reasonable way into a raging bull.what did you accomplish ?Take a little advice from your award winning dhimmie .use tranquilisers and try to be pleasant , you may actually achieve something.I assume you will now try to insult me but you need not bother as I am only ever hurt by people for whom I have respect

phil

Wahida I am intrigued -please tell me why you always respond to the likes of verity and those that wish to insult both you and your culture ,but then ignore my peaceable efforts to engage -I do find it strange ,they seem to have turned you into a very angry lady -your remarks about Jews and holy wars are off this planet unless you are talking about biblical stories from a time so long ago -the crusades were nearly 1000 years in the past by fanatics -I really think the west has progressed since then .It is now that we need be concerned with and finding a way to accommodate one another,not continuing the insults with the likes of those you choose to respond

Herbert Thornton

It will be very gratifying if my suggestion that pinnacle of civilisation is now exemplified by Japan leads to more introspection about whether the west is as civilised as it used to be.

Having raised that question perhaps we should also ask ourselves how China grades us.

If I were Chinese, I think I would look at the state that the west is descending into and ask myself - how can these barbarians presume to lecture us about human rights? I would probably acknowledge that the standards of my civilisation needed to be improved, but I would be as wary of my country being infected by the poison of political correctness as I would be of its infiltration by Islam.

There has been some discussion of the Geert Wilders video 'Fitna'. So I think there may be similar interest in this -

http://www.groepwilders.com/Banners/belgium.html

London Calling

I have just viewed the film 'Fitna' by Geert Wilders on YouTube. The stream of video clips throughout the film of 9/11, be heading's etc can be easily obtained and edited from youtube and could be put together by anyone, nothing we don't already know. What makes this film different though is the exposure of teachings from the Koran and the ideology that is exploited by Islamic extremist's from these teachings. The end of the film whereby the sound of a page being torn from the koran invites Muslims to remove the page and denounce the teachings, the killing of non-beleivers, jews, christians, (monkeys, swines)etc, pretty unholy reading, but in the Koran no less. I don't know what Geert Wilders hopes to achieve from this film, I found his approach to the subject if he wants it discussed
rather backward thinking and quite reckless if we are to take his views seriously. I don't believe Muslims will tear out pages from the Koran, and if we are to discuss the teachings within the Koran we must do so intelligently. Its not about using democracy to offend and disrespect to get a point across and Geert Wilders film ends with
the same images that created the deaths of one hundred people when the Danish cartoons were published, what was he thinking?
Liveleak.com the British based video streaming site removed the film from its site following death threats to their staff, meanwhile the film has reappeared on Youtube.

Herbert Thornton

London Calling asks what Geert Wilders hopes to achieve through the video "Fitna".

In asking this, I take it that LC means that he doesn't believe it will advance dialogue with Muslims. Looked at in that light LC is absolutely right - but not because of any deficiency in "Fitna". "Fitna" won't assist reasoned dialogue with Islam because such dialogue is impossible.

"Fitna", is addressed to westerners. It is intended to help them understand that Islam cannot be reasoned with.

"Fitna" is intended to help non-Muslims grasp this inconvenient and very unpleasant truth. The other video that was shot in Belgium helps to highlight the direction in which western incomprehension of Islam is leading us.

Verity

Phil addresses me with: "You have managed all on your own to turn Wahida from a person defending her culture in a reasonable way ...".

No. I am assuming she is English (or British). Therefore her "culture" is British. She was defending a backward, alien and aggressive culture, and doing it very ineptly with errors in fact.

London Calling notes of Geert Wilders's film, with some disapproval: "Its not about using democracy to offend and disrespect to get a point across."

Quite right! It's much more courteous to fly planes into buildings and blow up Madrid railway station and London Transport and a nightclub in Bali and try to drive a flaming Jeep into Glasgow Airport.

London Calling

Herbert Thornton - Westerners already know that Islamic Extremists (not Islam) cannot be reasoned with, we don't need 'Fitna' to educate us. If we in the west consider ourselves less barbaric and more intelligent, why do we need cartoons and amateur films to make our point and express ourselves?. I would much prefer to be educated without the violins playing in the background,from a Dutch MP who presents his point like a
propaganda film for the Jihad is. Would you like our MP's in Britain to act accordingly?
Thearte is the correct place for Drama and creative expression, not politics and the media.

Verity

London Calling - Do you believe in freedom of expression? Freedom of will?

Mr Wilders chose to make a film. Are you saying that you or anyone else should have the power to stop him? Are you saying that you or anyone else should have the power to prevent people watching a film in which they are interested?

Mr Wilders clearly knows a great deal more about Islam than you do. He has been under 24-hour protection for years. Apostate Hirsi Ali has also made a film about Islam -- a follow-up to the one she and Theo Van Gogh made before Theo was shot riding his bike in Amsterdam, and a threatening note pinned to his dying chest with a long knife promising Hirsi Ali would be next. Hirsi Ali went on to write a book about Islam today. Are you saying she had no right to do these two projects?

You close your somewhat confused post by saying, "Thearte is the correct place for Drama and creative expression, not politics and the media." Are you accusing Mr Wilders of being "creative", as in inventing facts? You are saying the media - including the internet - are not the correct place for "Drama [your capital] and creative expression"?

Your post is confused curiously emotional. Do you think that Mr Wilders, being at the heart of the Dutch Parliament, may know a few things about events that are not known to you?

As his film is free, he clearly didn't make it for personal profit. And, being one of the most high profile people in Europe under round-the-clock police protection, I don't think you could think he needs the publicity.