From enlightenment into darkness at Oxford and Cambridge

Philip Horowitz

Melanie, I'm glad you have written on these 2 affairs. The Benny Morris affair at least had been ignored by the mainstream press. I wonder if there will be comment on the OU one tomorrow. The blogger has as one of his conclusions "it seems that no Israeli official can expect to receive a fair hearing or to give a speech freely at a British University anymore". This would also be the case if one substituted "Zionist" for "Israeli official". And it will be soon be equally true if one substituted "Jew" tout court. It is unbelievable to me that there is no mainstream objection - pretty much other than yours - to this.

Worried

I live in Oxford and the city is so far to the left and so pro any entity that is anti Israel, you just throw your arms in the air when trying to explain the truth. Disproving a lie is like trying to prove that an event occurred that only you witnessed.

John.D

Sad times.

Chris Gillibrand

On 9 February, 1933 the Oxford Union voted 275 for 153 against : "That this House will in no circumstances fight for its King and Country".

Ecclesiastes 1:10
Nihil sub sole novum nec valet quisquam dicere ecce hoc recens est iam enim praecessit in saeculis quae fuerunt ante nos

10 Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new: for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us.

YA

Hundredfivethousandth time.
It's not self-generated.
It's payed by somebody.
As far as funding is continued, one can only expect more of that type.

Watt Tyler

From Deuteronomy 8:

As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

YossiUK

It is quite clear that the demented reasoning surrounding Israel and Jews that is so endemic in the Arab and Muslim world has reached and taken over many in Britain's intelligentsia. If this inversion of truth and reason could not so clearly be traced back to an ideological base, I would assume that these where the symptoms of some sort of undiagnosed psychosis.

What a sorry state the world is in.

Adam B.

I believe this meeting of the Oxford Union was open to members only, meaning that the individual who shouted "death to Jews" is a member. Will that individual be reported to the police by the union? If not, why not?

The ball is in the Union's court.

Jason from AZ

Across the pond in the USA we are a couple of decades behind you in merry ole' England in terms of blatant anti-semitism as the number of Muslims per capita is much less than in the UK. But like England, our campuses are a cesspool of leftist/Muslim hate for Israel/Jews.

Just the other day, student thugs belonging to the Muslim Student Union at UC-Irvine repeatedly disrupted a lecture on US-Israeli relations by Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren.

As far as campus life is concerned, where universities receive large grants for Islamic studies from Arab countries and where many Muslim students are in attendance, virulent anti-semitism is just as prevalent in the US as the UK.

el Yahud

Why are we surprised?
The "left" gets its emotional gratification from opposing (mostly from armchairs and podiums) real or imagined villains. Now, the "left" knows that it would get short shrift from genuine villains if it took them on, so they go after a far easier target, Israel.
In this they collaborate with the spiritual and political successors of Haj Amin el-Husseini, Hitler's adviser on Jewish affairs, who has remained one of Araby's most venerated heroes.
In the 1930's the"left' capitulated to fascism and nazism; in the 90's and now the 'left" has and is collaborating with the nazis' successors.

Brian O'Connor

This just makes me sick.

I've said it before but I'll say it again . . .

When I was growing up, the world was recoiling from the horrors of the holocaust. I can recall believing that if nothing else, the slaughter of 6 million innocent souls was an anomaly, albeit an unspeakably terrible one, but one so bad that it would mark the end of institutionalized anti-semitism, at least in the western world.

Alas, how wrong I was . . . the few short decades immediately following WW-II, a respite when the west was more tolerant of Jews, turned out to be the anomaly . . . and history has returned to where it was in the first two decades of the 20th Century.

God help us.

Don in the North Carolina mountains.

Thank you for your continuous courage. I was reminded of Edward Grey, 1st Viscount Grey of Fallodon, remembered for his remark on the eve of WW1: "The lamps are going out all over Europe; we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime."

David

Some context:
http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100207/OPINION/702069887/1080
"As ye sow,so shall ye reap."

Liz

Melanie, this situation is appalling but unfortunately, not surprising. I don't believe it has anything whatsoever to do with Israel or Israelis or even Zionists - but everything to do with Jews. Different age - same old story. However, King Solomon's also wrote:
'The sum of the matter, when all has been considered: Fear G0d and keep His commandments, for that is man's whole duty. For G0d will judge every deed - even everything hidden - whether good or evil'.
(Koheles XII 13-14)

Roy

Strange the intelligentsia, what is supposed to be the cream of thinking in the country, leads the way into the darkness. I always thought they were fundamentally flawed. Strange too, that at the same time, there should be a new definition of the word 'truth'. In fact the English meaning of many words; such as 'freedom' and 'democratic' have been truly messed-about-a-bit. To reply to these blogs, Melanie's and others, you have to relinquish your thoughts and feeling onto a new plain. A reestablishment plain, in order that it may with a bit of luck, get through the vetting process, to admit your comments into the fussy arena of public view. Always I have thought my views moderate to the extreme . . . but not so. They are expunged from the light of day by a moderators button as if they were formed in the devils den itself.

TomTom

the cream of Britain’s intelligentsia

Once, perhaps, but no longer. Much at Oxford is second-rate compared to the 1970s and the standard of student reflects the standards in schools; far less independent thought and much more Groupthink.

Don't put your faith in Oxford - 40% PPE students are now non-British. Just how do they comprehend British political institutions with no cultural or historical background ?

Margaret Muller-Johansson

It looks like Al Qaeda is in those British universities one person shouted kill the Jewish in Arabic why in Arabic? Is it because it is special language to use when people want to hate? now is name calling next time they want drop-out school to became suicide bombers and put bombs inside their underwear only the students from the British universities

Barry Meislin

David (5:47am), in addition to helping us ignore 1) that there does exist a Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and 2) that Hamas "governs" Gaza, and has been doing so for several years (ever since it violently threw out its Fatah brothers), and 3) that several offers have been proposed by Israel towards the creation of a Palestinian state, deserves utmost credit for helping us to understand why the Palestinians will never agree to a peace agreement with the Zionist Entity. Never.

Simply, if one can't beat the Zionists with weapons (though Iran/Hezbullah/Hamas would disagree---much to the shame of the Palestinian Authority, who, to be fair to them, haven't entirely given up the good fight), you can beat them in the court of global public opinion (by simply bandying about the same lies and fabrications with ever greater fervor...and admirable creativity).

davidker

No doubt the police are investigating and will arrest and charge the offender.

terence patrick hewett

Read John Pilger in the Fabian house magazine the New Statesman.

http://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2010/01/pilger-israel-palestinian-gaza

He libels the British academic community thus: “In 2005, Britain's Association of University Teachers (AUT) voted to boycott Israeli academic institutions complicit in the oppression of Palestinians. The AUT was forced to retreat when the Israel lobby unleashed a blizzard of character assassination and charges of anti-Semitism."

I attempted to reply:” Mr Pilger informs us of the important fact that he does not like Israel; that is his prerogative. However his assertion that the defeat of the AUT boycott of Israeli academic institutions was due to the activities of the "Israel Lobby" could not be further from the truth. It was defeated because no true academic would support it. Scholarship demands free debate; that is what it is all about. If we lose our academic integrity, then we have nothing. Those who wish to limit debate are totalitarian by nature and book burning is their natural activity. As Heinrich Heine so famously said in his play Almansor; 'They that start by burning books will end by burning men'. Those that proposed that boycott are a disgrace to the country and to scholarship."

But the New Statesman only hears what it wishes to hear, so it was somehow lost in the ether.

Andy Gill

If the student had shouted "Death to the Muslims", we would have had wholesale arrests by now, and Muslims threatening violence against the University.

TDT

@TomTom, the Europeans and other nationalities represented on the PPE course understand our institutions in just the same way that we British students understand theirs. You do realise that British politics isn't the be all and the end all of PPE but equal weight is given to French, German or American politics in first year?

Furthermore, your assertion that an Oxford degree is easier now than in the past is just untrue; probably a product of your belief in the inferiority of foreign students.

elixelx

Benny Morris is now a verboten historian to the Left...Michael Oren, also a historian, is ALSO Israeli Ambassador to the US, and was recently shouted down, one minute into his speech, at the Uni. of Calif. Irvine, and then shouted down again, and again, and again...until he left the stage in disgust, five minutes after he started...I believe it's on U-Tube...or posted on the "Human Events" Blog.
Here is a possible solution...in order to attend such speeches there should be a bond posted by putative attendees, say £100, which will be forfeit if that person disrupts the proceedings or is required to leave before the end! Then, like soccer hooligans, their names go down on a "verboten" list!
Please don't argue Free Speech Rights! Their Right to Free Speech surely ends where my Right starts!

John A. Davison

You have your Oxford and Cambridge. We in the USA have California, Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama. Harry Reid is already history.

Miranda Rose Smith

Someone should ask Mr. White "If Israel is so apartheid, how come they have no miscegenation laws?"

When that woman in the audience said that Jews should go back where they came from, did that include Yemen? Syria? What if they came from Jerusalem or Safed? Did she know that when 18th century anti-Semites said the Jews shoudl go back where they came from, they meant Palestine?

How could Benny Morris be guilty of racism when he's the same race as the Arabs?

D

Since when was the Oxford Union the 'cream of Britain’s intelligentsia.' Even if it wasn't known as the most publicity hungry organisation this side of Al-Qa'ida, it's just a bunch of gobby undergrads.

Miranda Rose Smith

Does anyone besides me realize what life in "free Palestine, from the river to the sea" will be like for the now-so-called "Palestinians?" (During the Mandatory period, hundreds of thousands of JEWS were Palestinians. The people now called the "Palestinians" are historically, liguistically and culturally ARABS.)Palestine will be a hellhole, torn apart by civil war between Sunnis and Shiites or between Hamas and Fatah. Would you rely on any of those people to collect your garbage? No garbage collection will mean rats and typhus. Would you rely on Hamas or Fatah to provide you with water, or electricity or sewer service? Any Arab who ever so much as sold a cup of coffee to a Jew will be subject to being shot as a traitor. Either Palestine will invade Jordan in revenge for Black September or Jordan will fear such an invasion and launch a pre-emptive strike. Either way, there will be a horrendous war.
Hundreds of thousands of refugees will be fleeing Palestine. Since they will have too much sense to expect any help from any Arab state, and since I think Greece will have too much sense to take them in, older Greeks had parents or grandparents who remember what it was like to live under the Turks, the refugees will head for Italy, France and Spain where they will set up terrorist states-within-states, the way the PLO did in Lebanon in the '70s.

TomTom

Furthermore, your assertion that an Oxford degree is easier now than in the past is just untrue;

Sorry TDT but my Oxford degree had much content than the sad ones today, and far fewer Firsts, and far better tutors.

Believe me, you are getting second best. I have seen what you are getting and it is A-Level standard not degree quality.

The Economics course is substandard and the Politics section is a hangover from 1968....

As for British Political Institutions I suggest you look at the Oxford Union and its function and layout....

religion of peace

Kill the.....
First it was the imams in the British mosques now the Cambridge and Oxford students

Chris S

'TomTom': I'd argue that the overall standard at Oxford is probably higher now than it was in the 1970s, not least because the cream of the state school (and female!) crop is now far better represented.

As to your second point, PPE is not so narrow a degree that it forces one to focus on specifically British political institutions; indeed, given how it's structured (most students drop one of the three subjects for Finals), it doesn't force one to focus on political institutions at all, beyond a bit of first-year grounding. I'll resist the temptation to take issue here with the notion that foreign students are somehow less capable of comprehending and writing about British political institutions in the first place, though I have about as much time for that as I do for the rest of your views!

Chris S

'Sorry TDT but my Oxford degree had much content than the sad ones today, and far fewer Firsts, and far better tutors'

On what data do you base these assertions? And if there are more Firsts than in your day (which was when, exactly?), one could surely use that fact to support the idea that the quality of students is actually *higher* in 2009 than in previous years.

I happily ditched Economics at the earliest possible opportunity, but can vouch for the fact that the Politics course is modern, flexible and rigorous, and very much rewards the level of effort and application that students are prepared to put into it.

Michael White

"Andy Gill
February 10th, 2010 10:18am
If the student had shouted "Death to the Muslims", We would have had wholesale arrests by now, and Muslims threatening violence against the University."

And the whole of Europe would have known about it courtesy of the BBC. As it is, I didn't know about this until I looked at this site.

PS Dear BBC, I wonder how Geert Wilders' trial is going?

Neil Craig

A considerable fall form the days when the Oxford Union voted they would not fight "for king & country". And before anybody says that was dreadful they did fight but WW2 was for something bigger than king & country.

Anybody who shouts "kill the Jews" is unfit to receive a university education. The country is not stronger from having such people here.

Matthew H. Kramer

I agree that the cancellation of Benny Morris's talk by the students who run Cambridge's Israel Society was disgracefully craven. However, the students who run that society are witless undergraduates rather than the cream of Britain's intelligentsia. Worth noting is that Morris did speak at Cambridge -- at an event organized by adults, in the Department of Politics and International Studies.

Arkletten

Is this the same Ben White who is causing trouble for Dr Patrick Sookdeo, a Chistian author who also tells the truth about Islamism?

Radgie Gadgie

.and when so many of Oxfords 'finest' end up at the Foreign Office, its little suprise where that institution's sympathies lie.

Graeme

The woman who shouted that Jews should go back to where they come from should realise that this is where Jews originally came from and that they returned to their ancestral homeland in 1948 and before that date.The early Zionist settlers cleared large tracts of land where few Arabs lived and developed them. Few Arabs lived in the Negev, which makes up 60% of Israel's area. Few Arabs lived along the coastal plain because it was marshland as were parts of northern Israel. Israel now resembles the cheery, happy place of Old Testament times. One can just imagine Israel under Arab governance: It would go down the drain in no time.

alan stoddart

They're not anti-Jewish.

Victoria Derbyshire on R5 interviewing Mohammed Atif Siddique makes it quite clear...she tells us that his interest in terrorism had nothing to do with religion...there was no link...I'm sure she would like to make the same claim about the creation of Israel...it had no link to the Jews or their religion...it was just a coincidence that several million Jews turned up there...simple really.

Graeme

Further to my previous, I would like to add an additional comment. If Jews were to leave Israel, where would they go? Britain is the former colonial power in Israel, so what would the Govt. do if some six or seven million Israeli Jews were to arrive at Heathrow or Gatwick claiming asylum because they have been thrown out of their homeland? What would the politically correct, left-wing pro-asylum, open border lobbyists have to say about that one eh?

Worried

Good news, this just in from The Times:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7022010.ece

Adam B.

Graeme, of course you're right. The bigots' slogan used to be "go back to Israel." Now it's "leave Israel." Next they won't want Jews to live anywhere, or just to live at all.

The woman cited on "The edge of where" blog is a racist bigot, pure and simple.

More depressed than worried

Worried. I'm old enough to remember when the Times was a decent newspaper.
Anyway I hope Ayalon does press charges. But even if he wins, I doubt we'll hear about it.

Adam F

Dr Azzam Tamimi is going to be speaking at a conference at The University Manchester (not Oxbridge but still Russel group). Dr Azzam is a supporter of Hamas and has praised suicide bombers. He has spoken recently at the University of Birmingham. I am not at all surprised at the situation at Oxford as it seems indicative of British academia in general and life on our university campuses in particular. Thank you for your good work in this area Melanie keep it up

mostly harmless

So what about this character Danny Ayalon? I wonder what all the fuss is about?

Steph

I'd like to bring you up to date on what happened yesterday at UC Irvine in California. Eleven of the thugs who interrupted Ambassador Oren were arrested and charged. Their names were printed in the Orange County Register the newspaper of record in Orange County where UC Irvine is located. They all had Muslim names and one of them was the President of the Muslim Students Association. For their behavior they could face as expulsion from the University, if the faculty has the guts to do it. But they certainly didn't approve of their behavior judging by the Chancellor of UCI and the Chairman of the Political Science Department who both angrily denounced them at the meeting, saying they were embarrassed by their behavior and telling them that screaming invective to drown out the Ambassador was not free speech, but the very opposite. FYO this same Muslim Students Association is already being investigated by the FBI for giving money to Hamas through George Galloway's Viva Palestina. I don't know about the UK, but in the USA it is illegal to do this because Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization. The Muslim Students Assn. claims it "didn't know" where the money was going. They were just raising money to donate to charity. So fellow readers take some encouragement from this. These Muslim thugs aren't having it all their own way. There may be a price to pay, one that will damage their future job and educational prospects, unless they plan full time careers as terrorists. And a short life-span often goes with that career choice.

Kevin Cooper

I read the Spectator online on a daily basis, both for imformation and to confirm the wisdom of my desision to emigrate to Autsralia in 2001. Britain today is a country I do not even wish to visit, let alone live in. What's worse is I do not beleive David Cameron is the man to change things, I beleive he will be worse that that charlatan Blair. I do not see the next Margaret Thatcher on the horizon, and until that person finally does arrive, I pity the poor souls who can't get out, like my parents

Samir S.Halabi

The Arab student whom shouted out in Danny Ayalon's presence
'Itbah al Yahud' = 'Kill the Jews' should definitely be indicted for genocide threatening. He should be tried in a court of law when found guilty a prison sentence should be his reward, as a lesson to others who embrace that termonology when speaking against Israel in demonstrations etc.

Charles Barker

I do find these derogatory, anti-Oxford comments rather immature – especially considering the readers espousing them do not speak from experience. As an Oxford student, and member of the Union, I must point out that most of the heckling came from members of the Anti-War and Palestinian Societies, and their views are certainly not those held by most students here.

To suggest that the interruptions on Monday were part of systemic anti-Semitic feeling throughout the university is to apply the views of a tiny minority to all of us. Furthermore, any implication that Oxford has lost any of its intellectual nuance or panache over the past 30 years is also absurd – whilst I would agree that nationwide university standards have slipped, the hurdles to get into Oxbridge have only grown higher, and the standard continues to rise as competition increases.

Derek BLADES

Israel’s deputy foreign minister was invited to speak at the Oxford Union and a heckler who shouted “Kill the Jews” was thrown out of the meeting.

Two rather positive things on the face of it. As usual,Britain's finest university has not put a foot wrong.

What exactly am I supposed to get indignant about?

Derek Pasquill

Cream of British intelligentsia?

The cream soured a long time ago - what's left is the rancid curd.

Keith

The terrible thing for me in all this is that Jews and Arabs and some Aramaic's provably have exactly the same DNA.This is not deniable,the tests can be done again tomorrow and now this is known the knowledge cannot disappear. They are the same people but divided by unproven doctrine and brother is killing brother. Who is benefiting this fruitless conflict except the arms dealers.

Adam B.

Derek Blades, "Britain's finest University" also employs Tom Paulin, who called for "Jewish settlers to be shot". I'm sure that's perfectly acceptable to you.

mark

"So the Oxford Union hosts murderous anti-Jewish and anti-Israel hatred,"

Er no, Someone yelled "Kill the Jews" and was quite rightly kicked out of the meeting.

James Pawlak

MECCA DELENDA EST

It might be that the Oxbridge dons will understand the Latin of this.

Dissing

"Disinviting"? Disrespecting. Dissing. What torture our language has been subjected to by the trahison des clercs, to use Joseph Bend's cogent phrase.

stephen maybery

Being anti Israeli is an euphemism amongst the British intelligentsia for anti semitism. These people are too cowardly and morally dishonest to admit they do not like Jews, therefore they wrap their predjudice up in in critisism of the state of Israel, yet critiscise Pakistanis or immigrants and these self same arbiters of our moral probity would have apoplexy.

Augustus

To charge Israel with Apartheid is twisting logic. Whereas anti-Semitism has always aimed at refusing equal rights to Jews, critics of Islam want to restore equal rights (middle-ages concepts of inequality of women and unbelievers). Whereas
critics of Islam fight for integration (of Muslims), anti-Semitism fights against integration (of Jews). Therefore
criticism of Islam is the exact opposite of anti-Semitism.

Derek BLADES

In his 11 February comment addressed to me, Adam B is referring to an interview that Mr Paulin gave to the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram Weekly in which he ‘told the newspaper that Brooklyn-born Jewish settlers "should be shot dead" and that "they are Nazis, racists."’ (The citation is from Wikipedia.)

I can assure Adam B that I do not agree with Mr Paulin that shooting Brooklyn born settlers dead is an appropriate policy. They should however be asked why they have left a rather prosperous part of America in order to steal land from rather poor Arab farmers in a distant land to which they have no conceivable claim.

In the event that they cannot give a convincing answer, I believe they should either decamp to Israel proper or take the next flight back to Brooklyn. What do you think they should do Adam B?

Adam B.

What do you think Oxford should do with Tom Paulin, Deerk blades?

Land "stolen"? Are you sure?

Truthtriumphs

BLADES.
"A distant land to which they have no conceivable claim".
Is that so?
You mean such as Hebron, where Jews resided continuously since biblical times, until the Arabs threw them out in violent riots in 1929, or ditto the Etzion block, where the Jews have the title deeds.
The "poor Arab farmers" you talk about are not indigenous, but migrated from Egypt and Syria once the Jews arrived in the early 20th. century, and created the opportunities by reclaiming the land, that had lain desolate for centuries.
The Arabs, with the help of racists like yourself, get away with the myth of being indigenous because of the colour of their skin.

So, to sum up your leitmotif, to the Arabs/Muslims-- everything, and to the Jews nothing, and no place on this earth.
That is pure, unadulterated racism.

And, btw, what conceivable claim do upwards of 30,000,000 Muslims have to the lands of Western Europe in which they currently reside?

Richard

Once again, thank you, Melanie for bringing this to our attention. The "pro-Palestinians" are openly in favour of terrorism, genocide and against free speech.

Iosif Vissarianovich

I confess I was not at the Oxford Union for the event in question. However I can assure you that these actions were the behaviour of a tiny minority and in no way reflect the attitudes of the University as a whole.

For the most part students here tend to be Tory, but this is obviously not on a par with the rampant anti-semitism you describe.

Please do not extrapolate the actions of (in this case) one person to discredit the entire academic system of two universities.

Philo

"Truthtriumphs"
"The "poor Arab farmers" you talk about are not indigenous, but migrated from Egypt and Syria once the Jews arrived in the early 20th. century, and created the opportunities by reclaiming the land, that had lain desolate for centuries."

You have been told that this is not correct. You have been given references to confirm this for yourself. Why continue to repeat falsehoods?

"Truth" does not mean "whatever it suits me to believe".

Thomas

So the Oxford Union (rightly) invites one of the most right wing anti-Arab Israeli government ministers to speak, over 500 students turn up to hear him (despite the fact that, politically, he is far less important and certainly less high-profile than a great deal of speakers who come to the Union) and the presence of a few (admittedly rather rude) protesters, who were subsequently kicked out, proves that Oxford is anti-semitic? It was not the Union's fault that a small minority of members chose to disrupt the talk. Rather it should be congratulated for giving the guy a platform, as should the vast number of students who turned up to hear him.

Incidentally, Ayalon's thugs standing at the Union gates were some of the rudest people I've ever encountered.

Truthtriumphs

Philo.
"You have been told that this is not correct".

By whom, exactly? By arrogant people such as yourself who write their own script?
You'll have to do better than that.
I actually consult real history books.
Why don't you begin your education of the ME by reading Mark Twain's "Innocents Abroad". Or is he inventing it all?

Philo

"Truth"triumphs,
Your contribution is once again beyond parody.

Mark Twain would be amused to have his comic travelogue cited as history.

As recently as January 8th you were given the relevant reference - by me. It is telling that you did not bother to follow it up. Don't let truth get in the way of your story, eh?

Henry Sidgwick

Moderator or Censor,
I am curious to know why Adam B. can ask about Tom Paulin's incitement to violence, but I cannot ask him in turn about similar incitement by rabbis.

Adam B.

Philo, it is a farce to pretend that every Arab person living in Judea and Samaria is descended from a long line of ancestors who similarly farmed the same land. It is simply a myth. You must surely acknowledge that there was widescale Arab immigration into Palestine, which occured simultaneously to (and as a result of) Jewish immigration. Mark Twain's description was by no means meant comically, as is apparent if you bother to read it.

My point to Blades was to highlight how typical it was of him to dowmplay a case of outright antisemitism which, in turn, demonstrated a wider truth about many in the Israel bashing lobby.

Thomas, I don't think Oxford is a very nice place to be Jewish at present. Look at the disgusting and one sided actions of Oxford City Council, the Oxford Union's recent discussion about whether the Jewish state has a right to simply exist on this planet, (a loaded debate if you saw the speakers), the frequent displays of anti-Israel hostility...It's a fantastic city, and a great university, but there are some nasty elements there. Just ask the Jsoc if you don't believe me.

Philo

Adam B.
..."it is a farce to pretend that EVERY Arab person living in Judea and Samaria is descended from a long line of ancestors who similarly farmed the same land..."

Up to your old tricks. If you argue dishonestly there is no point in arguing at all. I will remind you what "Truth"triumphs said: "...The "poor Arab farmers" you talk about are not indigenous, but migrated from Egypt and Syria once the Jews arrived in the early 20th. century..." (I referred him to serious history. He referred me to the great Mark Twain, who wrote his book as a tourist.)

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
Your point to Mr. Blades illustrates a persistent double standard in your comments here. Rabbis and extreme politicians incite violence and yet you appear never to rebuke them.

Your comments about Oxford are overheated. To criticise Israel is not to be anti-Semitic, as I am sure you know. The notion that Oxford is rife with anti-Semitism is a nonsense.

Adam B.

No Philo, no tricks. Of course, you don't address the substance of my post.

It is impossible to verify the exact time each Arab farmer's ancestors came to live in Judea and Samaria, as you well know. However, what is known is that there was large scale Arab immigration simultaneous to, and as a result of, Jewish immigration. Why don't you address that point? And why, indeed, do you seem to feel that it's fine for 1.5 million Arabs to live in Israel, but outrageous for 300,000 Jews to live in Judea and Samaria, land which you seem to (falsely) think was intrinsically Arab at some point in time? Why must these lands be Judenrein, like Saudi Arabia or Jordan?

Adam B.

Henry, double standard? Not at all, and here's why.

Since when have a handful of fringe rabbis posed a threat to society? Do you really think that religiously inspired hatred coming from Jewish people poses a wider problem for our society? Yes, I remember all those Jewish rabbis telling their congregants about the evils of the West, how they should killl in the name of their faith and don suicide vests to kill innocents on tubes and buses. The whole point of your very silly post is to try to downplay the evils posed by antisemitism, to pretend antisemitism plays no part in the obsessive Israel bashing we are currently witnessing. What happened in Oxford was a slipping of the mask. But of course, you won't see that.

Truthtriumphs

Henry Sidgwick.
So called citicism of Israel is largely antisemitism, and is in accordance with the EU's definition of it, for where Israel is singled out, as in the case of self-defence, which is something we would DEMAND of our government under far less provocation, then it certainly IS anti-semitic.

In any event, what you call criticism is,in fact, demonisation of the only Jewish country on the planet.

What a gift Israel is to people like yourself, who can wrap their anti-semitism around themselves as a cloak of righteous indignation against the "collective Jew", which is not only acceptable, but laudible in today's warped climate of Jew hatred.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
You have some difficulty in resisting the temptation to duck and weave.

""Britain's finest University" also employs Tom Paulin, who called for "Jewish settlers to be shot". I'm sure that's perfectly acceptable to you."
"What do you think Oxford should do with Tom Paulin, Deerk blades?"

You criticise Tom Paulin for urging Palestinians to shoot settlers. You are quite right to do so.

When rabbis urge the killing of Palestinians (most recently in a meeting with the US ambassador, but it is something they have been doing since the founding of the state), then they are merely "fringe" characters (since when were the rabbis among the settlers "fringe" characters?) - and no condemnation is required.

Tom Paulin urges the killing of Israelis:condemnation rightly required. Rabbis urge killing of Palestinians: no condemnation required. This is a double standard in action.

The rest of your "silly post" is an attempt to pump up a fevered illusion that Britain is rife with anti-Semitism. It is not. There is a section of the population critical of the behaviour of the state of Israel towards the Palestinians. I suspect it is a minority, possibly even a small minority.

I have never attempted to downplay the evils of anti-Semitism. It is a further example of your carelessness with the truth that you should assert that I have.

Henry Sidgwick

"Truth"triumphs,
This does you no credit. If you manage anything coherent, and preferably unflecked with spittle, I may reply.

Israel cannot use the excuse of self-defence for its assault on Gaza. There was a ceasefire in place and an extension was offered.

I note you froth at me but carefully avoid the question of the historical sources for your absurd comments on population.

Adam B.

No Henry, no double standard - IF (and I stress that word) any rabbi called for the unlawful killing of a Palestinian, (that is, not in self defence), I would of course condemn it - without any reservation whatsoever. However, I would like to know where you got such an allegation, and I would like to verify it. Such accusations have in the past proven to be lies. I assume you condemn the frequent calls to murder Jews emanating from the mosques of the West Bank and Gaza.

You know as well as I that any such rabbis are indeed fringe (they do not represent mainstream Judaism, and violence carried out in the name of Judaism is pretty much non-existant.) Yet still you persist with your mantra that there is no antisemitism, that the Israel bashing brigades contain no antisemites, that it's all made up and the Jews of Britian live with an imaginary threat. How then do you explain the record rise in antisemitic attacks in 2009? The most ever recorded, with a sharp rise in violent attacks? How do you explain that Henry? And why do you act dumb when you can't see that the incident in Oxford betrays the true agenda of some of the Israel bashing lobby? Your downplaying of what is happening in Oxford (I gave you examples which you have ignored) is typical - you live in complete denial.

John.

Something curious has happened to the British in recent times - where formerly one of our salient characteristics was that of standing up to bullies and lairs, now we love to side with the bullies and the liars. Is it the result of years of left-wing conditioning, no history teaching in schools or what? The Jews may practise male circumcision but they donīt remove every bit they can of young girls' genital parts, they don't murder those who criticize their religion, they don't stone to death adultresses and homosexuals, they donīt murder apostates, they donīt clamour violently for their laws to become the law of the land nor do they procreate as fast as possible so as to be able to annex countries into the caliphate and yet we now lionize those who actually do all these things and attack those who don't, at every possible opportunity. Not an attractive feature. People go on about the glories of mediaeval Muslim learning and how the Muslims preserved what we have from the Greeks. Actually we would have far more had they not conquered Constantinople and made bonfires of all the books they could find, after the fall of that magnificent city. As for the modern contribution of Islam to the world of learning - there are, I believe three Muslim Nobel Prize winners and about a thousand times more Muslims than Jews. Jewish Nobel Prize winners run into the hundreds. Is it possible that we have got it all slightly wrong? I have learnt one or two surprising things reading these columns such as the fact that many, most? Palestinians are not Palestinians at all but descendants of Syrians, Egyptians and Libyans who came to Palestine to take advantage of the newly fertile land created by the Jewish people. And that originally all of Palestine, under the British Mandate, had been designated as the land to become the eventual Israel and that Israel comprises a tiny bit of what it should originally have been. Thes are things one doesn't often hear outside these columns - why?

charles soper

Thanks for posting this, Melanie.
I loved Oxford as a child, but it's tragic to see it and Cambridge becoming a vipers nest like this. Spinelessness and willful complicity with hatred.

Henry Sidgwick

adam B.
It is a comfort to know that you would condemn any rabbi inciting violence. It is unfortunate that you have perfected a method for not noticing when they do. I have seen how you fail to take up references, so I will let you put in some work yourself to acquire some of the basic education on this topic that I would have thought a prerequisite for commenting. Try the justification of the slaughter at Qibya to start with; and come right up to date with the rabbis impressing upon the US ambassador the need to use "Biblical" methods (they do not mean peace and goodwill to all men).

Of course these rabbis are on the fringe and therefore of no importance despite their influence on the violent behaviour of settlers. In this they clearly differ from Tom Paulin and the handful of protesters at the Union who are the lynchpin of a worldwide conspiracy to destroy the Jews by criticising the state of Israel in its actions against the Palestinians.

Double standards? I think so.

As a footnote, to help you to achieve honesty in your comments: you say I persist in my mantra that "that the Israel bashing brigades contain no antisemites". You know I have said no such thing. This little trick of indignantly condemning something I haven't said is tiresome as it is dishonest.

Truthtriumphs

John.
Thank you for that. Everything you said is true.
Re: the Nobel prizewinners, here are the accurate statistics.
Nobels for chemistry ,physics and medicine:-
Jews, 27%. Muslims none.
Economics:- Jews 49%.
Muslims, none.
Population:- Muslims, 1.5 billion worldwide.
Jews, 12 million worldwide.
And in the sciences the figure should have been higher.eg.
Einstein was only awarded one,instead of the 4 he deserved.
Lise Meitner and Rosalind Franklin were cheated out of theirs.
The Muslims would do better if they developed the vast lands they control, (largely through conquest and subjugation), and educated, instead of repressed their populations.

Truthtriumphs

Sidgwick.
Why do you uniquely demand of Jews that no matter what the violence perpetrated against them, they must never defend themselves, and should lay down and die?

That, according to the EU definition, is anti-semitic.

You can dress up your sentiments as you will, but we can all see through you.

PS. Do tell us when you are Sidgwick and when you are Philo.
Is it a mood thing?

Adam B.

Oh Henry, please... that "protestor" (rather, racist bigot) at Oxford was NOT simply criticizing the Israeli government, he called for the Jews to be put to death. That's the whole point! My point to you is that this demonstration is indicative of what many in the Israel bashing lobby think. The mask slipped. This incident is itself by no means unique. "Demonstrations" (anti-Israel hatefests) in central London have seen similar shouts of "Kill the Jews". The fact that such an utterance comes from someone studying at perhaps the most prestigious University in the land, or even the world, and a future potential policymaker, seems lost on you. This wasn't a mindless idiot, this is a highly educated and potentially influential individual.

Why do you downplay antisemitism? I notice that you studiously avoided addressing the issue of the sharp increase in antisemitic attacks in the UK, in fact a record number. How does this tally with your confident assertion that there is really no problem with antisemitism? How many other communities do you know have round the clock protection? Which schools, alone of any ethnic group in the UK, needs its windows bombproofing?

As for the fringe rabbis, what is your point? If they are fringe, as you admit, and the alleged violence they allegedly espouse isn't in fact a problem, what are you trying to prove by bringing it up? This thread is about a vile incident of antisemitism, demonstrative of a wider sickness taking hold in the UK, and you bring up what one extremist fringe rabbi may have said 1000 miles away - yes Henry, I see you can deal with the issue responsibly and sensitively.

Henry Sidgwick

"Truth"triumphs,
Your reply to me is without merit (very nearly without content); your reply to Philo, we still await, with bated breath and umbrellas ready.

Truthtriumphs

Philo/Sidgwick.
My time is too valuable to waste arguing with flat earthers.
The history of the region is well established, and well documented, and revisionists, like yourselves,
are laughed out of bed by serious historians.

Just one quote, though, by one distinguished Englishman:-

"So far from persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population".
Winston Churchill, 1939.
Please don't write to say that he was "in the grips of the Zionist/Jewish lobby" in Tonge-speak.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
Deep breath. You say: "As for the fringe rabbis, what is your point? If they are fringe, as you admit, and the alleged violence they allegedly espouse isn't in fact a problem, what are you trying to prove by bringing it up? This thread is about a vile incident of antisemitism, demonstrative of a wider sickness taking hold in the UK, and you bring up what one extremist fringe rabbi may have said 1000 miles away - yes Henry, I see you can deal with the issue responsibly and sensitively."

Let me remind you. YOU asked Mr. Blades what he thought of Tom Paulin inciting Palestinians to kill settlers ( as you say, about 1000 miles away). I asked you in turn, since you raised the matter, what you thought of not just one rabbi, but many over many years (- your ignorance remains a wonder -)inciting settlers to kill Palestinians. You slip in, I don't know where from, the assumption that the violence is not a problem(!) Well,yes, the violence is a problem, particularly to those it kills. You're answer is that these rabbis are merely a fringe. I take it that you mean by this that they and their incitement to violence and the violence that ensues and the deaths and injuries are not worthy of comment...whereas Tom Paulin is?

(The "fringe" rabbis, by the way, just happen to have influence in the influential fringe of Israeli society made up of settlers. And the violence they incite just happens to further the aim of the settlers to be rid of Palestinians. And, by coincidence, Palestinians are indeed being deprived of their homes, their livelihoods, their lives: this is not some phantom international conspiracy, this is what has actually been happening for decades to thousands and thousands of people. - But what are the lives and deaths of thousands when compared to the inflammatory words of Tom Paulin?)

For the absence of doubt, what the one (ONE) protestor shouted in the chamber is despicable as were the chants of those outside. Where we differ is in what we infer from this. To me, a widespread, but still minority, protest at Israel's aggression, plus a few despicable anti-Semites, some of whom latch onto the protest against Israel's aggression, do not equal an extensive international conspiracy against Jews. Any anti-Semitism has to be slapped down. But these outbursts cannot be allowed to insulate Israel.

You reserve the right to call anyone who criticises Israel an anti-Semite, thereby associating them with despicable views and neutralising, or attempting to neutralise, their criticism of Israel. This is not honest. Anti-Semitism is evil. Israel's behaviour towards the Palestinians is criminal. The two are separate (except in the fevered minds of a few bigots).

Henry Sidgwick

"Truth"triumphs,
I went back to your quarrel with Philo and can confirm that your quote from Churchill in 1939 is not strictly relevant.

What you said was:
"The "poor Arab farmers" you talk about are not indigenous, but migrated from Egypt and Syria once the Jews arrived in the early 20th. century, and created the opportunities by reclaiming the land, that had lain desolate for centuries."

Your statement refers to Ottoman times and asserts that there was no-one in Palestine tilling the land until Zionist settlers arrived. Churchill's comment refers to the Mandate.

There are approximate numbers available.

At the start of the Mandate there were 650k Muslims, 80k Christians, and 40k Jews (Jewish millet and Zionist settlers).

At the time of the Partition, there were 818k Palestinians in "Palestine", 438k in "Israel" and 100k in "Jerusalem", a total of 1.356m, for an increase of 706k or 108%.

At the time of the Partition, there were 10k Jews in "Palestine", 499k in "Israel" and 100k in "Jerusalem", a total of 609k, for an increase of 549k or 915%.

(I am no great arithmetician, so I do not vouch for my calculations.)

(The Christians seem to have been subsumed in the numbers for Palestinians by the time of the Partition.)

I have seen figures for the world-wide Jewish population before the War. I recall that there were approximately 11m in Europe. I cannot remember the figures for the US and elsewhere.

Churchill made many decisions of importance to the region, not always on the basis of good information or sound understanding, and certainly not with good consequences for the inhabitants, but then they were not his concern, which was rather with Imperial security.

Perhaps you should devote some of your "valuable" time to the study of history.

Truthtriumphs

Sidgwick.
I will not waste any more time arguing with cranks, other than to say that the West Bank is booming economically thanks to the Israeli economy, and the WB's trade with Israel.

btw, the "sttlers" only "occupy" 1.7% of the WB, on land, incidentally, which legally was theirs before they were evicted, and their land stolen by the illegal occupation of Trans Jordan, and earlier, by the marauding Arab gangs in 1929.

Adam B.

Henry, this is hopeless. You seem unable to distinguish what is said in THIS country, in Oxford (relevant to this thread - ie Tom Paulin - that's why I brought it up) with what is said abroad - not relevant to this thread.

I can't be bothered any more. You keep on thinking that antisemitism has nothing to do with the disproportionate, obsessive, fixated rantings of the Israel bashing lobby if it makes you feel better. My whole point is that the ONE antisemite's display at the Oxford Union is indicative of widespread antisemitism in the Israel bashing lobby (ie the examples in London, the record increase in antisemitic attacks - why do you think that is, Henry?)Incidentally, any violence from settlers which isn't in self defence (and which is totally unacceptable) is far outshadowed by the violence settlers face from Arabs in the West Bank. But never mind.

Henry Sidgwick

"Truth"triumphs,
You have not yet argued at all.

You have moved from the Ottoman era to the Mandate to the present day in a seemingly endless quest to avoid answering for any of yur outrageous assertions. At each way station in your tactical retreat you have deposited something of no worth: in Ottoman times there was no-one tilling the soil of Palestine; in the Mandate period, more Arabs immigrated to Palestine than there were Jews in the whole wide world; and in the present day, the West Bank is booming because of Israel's beneficence.

This boom brought to mind a thread from a few weeks back, when others were having an exchange very like ours. I eventually found it:

"This looks eerily like the US neo-colonialist blueprint in use for over a century. Those hugely impressed with the “West Bank boom” celebrated more than once on this blog will be familiar with some features.

There are now two armies in the West Bank. One is under the supervision of the US State Dept. and manned by Palestinians. The other is run by the CIA, under no supervision whatsoever. These armies ensure, by the means standard among militias trained by the US, that Palestinians do not threaten Israel's security while it continues its annexation. In return for their services, the Palestinian forces get a little bit of power and a little bit of wealth. The “international community” ensures that its aid flows through the hands of those in nominal command of the Palestinian forces. Israel relaxes the economic noose to a degree in some urban centres. And lo, we have the prosperity that so impresses propagandists for Israel. There are expensive cars, restaurants, boutiques. Some of the newfound wealth “trickles down” in true new-classical fashion (or more accurately in classical Gangster Capitalism fashion). The world can be persuaded that the Palestinians are quite happy and prosperous in their ghettoes and do not need any of the land and resources Israel has annexed. They do not need a peace agreement: peace already reigns. The consequent immiseration of the bulk of the population is a routine feature of such pacification (as in the Philippines, Haiti, Central America...)."

So much for your boom.

You add an interesting statistic, which I believe you have used before. But tell me, when you add up all the settlements, all the agricultural land, all the military bases and land allocated to the military, the roads and roadblocks,the security areas and areas out of bounds to Palestinians etc. etc. - what percentage of the West Bank does this add up to? And what percentage are Palestinians actually allowed on? And how much of this is contiguous? I see. So, in short, your "statistic" was deliberately misleading.

Adam B.

Henry, amazing, isn't it, how a thread about antisemitism and the tactics of the Israel bashing lobby turns into a concerted attack on Israel. I guess you can't help yourself.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
So you challenged Mr. Blades with what Tom Paulin said, not because of what Tom Paulin said, but because of where he said it...um. The fact that it was the West Bank he was talking about, inciting Palestinians to shoot settlers (where settlers routinely attack Palestinians, when the IDF or the courts won't do it for them -which is rarely-) was of no relevance - the West Bank had nothing to do with why you raised the question of Tom Paulin and what he said, and therefore should form no part of our discussion...um. The notion that Israeli settlers suffer worse than the Palestinians (in terms of wealth, health, danger to life and limb?)...um. So,I suppose, if you hope to salvage any credibility, you have to fall back on this one anti-Semite at the OU and his fellow idiot in London. This is a novel form of induction: there is one black swan(or two, or twenty, whatever), therefore all swans are black. Okay, maybe you are right - you had better give up before it gets any worse.

...And now your latest attempt is that a thread about "Israel bashers" cannot discuss the hypocrisy of Palestine bashers insisting we talk only about "Israel bashers"...oh, dear!

Adam B.

Henry, this thread was about antisemitism. You have twisted it into yet anothet concerted (and predictable) attack on the Jewish state. We have had many other threads to talk about the issues you raise, but then your tactic is to always attack, never defend. Because you can't defend the tactics of the Israel bashing lobby, you take the opportunity to kick the Jewish state again.

Unbelievable! It's an unhealthy fixation.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
We can't let your final righteous inexactitude pass unremarked. It should be brought out into the light and celebrated for what it is.

It is you who first raised the subject of shootings in the West Bank. Derek Blades out of courtesy replied. And the priceless "Truth"triumphs took up the subject of immigration to Palestine and ran with it, in a remarkable series of non sequiturs and random factoids from his propaganda manual. In each instance, I responded to subjects raised by you and by him. As ever, he came blustering out to fight and slunk away with a whimper and then silence. You, as ever, seek to gloss over your defeat by twisting and turning in ever decreasing circles of righteousness and misdirection.

Adam B.

Henry, defeat? Is that what this is? You win, well done.

Now you can go back to the playground.

I raised the subject with Blades because his post was dowplaying an instance of antisemitism, an instance, which you still don't recognise, is not a one off, not unique, but indicative of a sickness which motivates many in the Israel bashing lobby. Such a downplaying of this disease, which you seem to think hardly affects anyone (although you haven't been able to tally it with the record level of antisemitic attacks in the UK last year) is despicable.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
I have resolved to give you the last word you so evidently crave, but first I must point out that once again you misrepresent the case and present a dubious inference as indisputable:

"I raised the subject with Blades because his post was dowplaying an instance of antisemitism, an instance, which you still don't recognise, is not a one off, not unique, but indicative of a sickness which motivates many in the Israel bashing lobby."

What Tom Paulin said is not anti-Semitic. It is an outrageous risposte to the murderous acquisitiveness of Israeli settlers.

I have nowhere said that any anti-Semitic attack is a one-off. I have suggested that you take every instance as an opportunity to make tendentious allegations about opinion in this country. A sharp increase in incidents from mercifully very few to still very few is a matter for regret and prompt action by the police, it should not be an excuse for politically-motivated, unsubstantiated and offensive claims.

I have never asserted that there are no anti-Semites criticising Israel. You have presented absolutely no evidence that anti-Semitism is the prevalent motivation for critics of Israel, not even for many critics. Indeed the only evidence you have ever presented is of these isolated incidents involving individual idiots or very small numbers of bigots or poliitical or religious zealots.

You lose an argument when you fail to substantiate your claims and fail to address the arguments of your opponents. You fail badly and with a bad grace when you have to resort to misdirection, misquoting, and the constant blare of unwarranted righteousness.

It would be a wonderful thing if in your final comment you could finally attempt honest argument.

Adam B.

The evidence for antisemitism being prevalent in the Israel bashing lobby is clear to all except those who are blind. Why is Israel singled out? And before you protest, please see Melanie's blog about what is going on in the Congo. The ONLY explanation is antisemitism. I'm glad you think that there a few antisemitic incidents - it's nonsense of course. Yesterday I passed a synagogue with guards outside. Jewish children go to schools with bomb proof windows. And if you think what Paulin said isn't antisemitic, you are living in la la land.

Blind.