The BBC's Arabic Service

phil

Melanie have you ever seen pigs fly?

GNO

Most of Al-Jazeera employees are former "beeboids".
Any wonder that it is difficult to spot the difference between the two organisations?

BBC Trust, an oxymoron?

Hereford

The BBC must be forced to publish a full English translation of every item they broadcast on their Arabic radio and television channels and to submit that translation to independent audit. Also, I wonder if there is a pressure group out there through which a boycott of the BBC (witholding licence fee payments) can be organised and enacted?

Ian C

It's surprising that MEMRI did not pick this up at the time. As a recipient of their published translations I do not recall seeing anything from them.

Nick Kaplan

Why does the BBC have an ‘Arabic Service’ is it not the British Broadcasting Corporation?

E Paddon

The BBC is a cartoon.

Joshua

A short while ago, I asked the following question here: At what point does a journalist become a terrorist? I do believe that question has now been answered.

alan stoddart

The Terrorism Act 2006 states:

(2) A person commits an offence if—
(a) he publishes a statement to which this section applies or causes another
to publish such a statement; and

(b) at the time he publishes it or causes it to be published, he—

(i) intends members of the public to be directly or indirectly
encouraged or otherwise induced by the statement to commit,
prepare or instigate acts of terrorism or Convention offences; or

(ii) is reckless as to whether members of the public will be directly
or indirectly encouraged or otherwise induced by the statement
to commit, prepare or instigate such acts or offences.

If Paxman can say this:

63. Let me say right now that some of the things of which we stand accused are contemptible. I can see no circumstances at all under which you can justify defrauding the public on a premium rate phone line. In fact, I can’t quite see why there aren’t grounds for prosecution.

about overcharging on phone lines then surely incitement of terror and anti-semitism should see someone in court?

Lexington

Hereford: Start a local pressure group yourself. That's how Revolutions begin. Taxation Without Representation is Tyranny! worked rather well, last time around.

osama

apparently Geert Wilders has put his film 'Fitna' onto the internet....haven't found it yet.

osama

Geert Wilders film at: www.liveleak.com

osama

Geert Wilder's 'Fitna' at 'www.liveleak.com'

Dave

"For example we were told that the bombing of an electricity station was a ‘crime’"

I'm geniunely interested. I thought this sort of collective punishment of a population for the actions of a group was illegal. Am I wrong?

Dee Ranged

Fitna the Movie by Gert Wilder

Find it here http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103

Lynne T

Nick Kaplan:

Why an Arabic Service for the BBC? Why, to provide a training program for future Middle East experts the Beeb can use on its English language broadcasts, of course, who can speak with even more authority than the Orla Guerins and Barbara Pletts, whose hearts bleed for the Arabs, but who are insufficiently ethnically diverse.

Alice

Hereford: and who would do the translation? The Foreign Office?

theodoric

Osama - A link to Fitna has been posted at jihadwatch.com - I've just watched it. Essential viewing but visceral content so be prepared

YA

fitna: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4ufyd_fitna-movie-geert-wilders_news. IMHO this movie is nothing more than amateurish collage. The most impressive moment is in the end, - the list of people who participated in creation. I had goosebumps when I saw it. Hats off, these people are risking their lifes for the sake of our freedom. Presently I think twice before exposing my e-mail and IP address to Guardian or BBC sites. Another good news are, that apparently more such movies will be published. This is another small move in correct direction, - to find a proper place for Koranic teachings in the range of moral values, namely beyond margins of acceptable human behavior.

Augustus

Osama, The film's on LiveLeak.com

david gibson

The film 'fitna' is on liveleak.com

Mike

Since I neither speak nor read Arabic I'm not in a position to judge if a translation out of Israel is accurate or not. Neither am I sure if Melanie or anyone else contributing to this thread is an Arabist either. However, since the BBC Arabic Service is designed to provide news and comment directly to millions of Arabic speaking people, and since the news gatherers and commentators are presumably either Arabs or Iranians, then it is perfectly reasonable for them to view all their news output in that light. Being mindful of Israel's own propaganda designed to present their view of the world in the best possible light, then perhaps both sides of the argument come out even. But whichever way one wishes to cut it, Israel can hardly be expected to come out of any of this mess 'smelling like roses'. I think Melanie and her acolytes should stop whinging and learn to take any criticism 'on the chin'. At the end of the day, what on earth do they expect? Tough!

Augustus

Re: The Film. It's powerful in its way ("throats must be cut, and skulls must be crushed") but nevertheless tends to remind one of a student type of effort. I understand that the main Dutch landmarks are still standing.

zoltix

You can get to the fitna movie via jihadwatch.org

Adam B.

Hereford, I agree, the BBC stinks. A lot of people aren't happy with the outdated licence fee, but pressure will only work if people withhold the licence fee en masse. Melanie points out that the BBC receives funding from the Foreign Office, (and as everyone knows, the Foreign Office doesn't like Jews very much). So much for BBC "independence."

alex

as you a regular part of the BBC radio programme the Moral Maze how do your views on that wicked institution known as auntie square with continuing to appear as a guest?

KateA

Mike: what a load of spurious twaddle.

Do tell.... WHERE, might we find "Israel's own propaganda designed to present their view of the world in the best possible light.."?

Do tell ... WHAT official Israeli media source have you uncovered that consistently spews out hatred and violence against ANY other religious, national or political grouping?

ANY reference would be appreciated.

I fear your 'dislike' of Melanie - I think I quote correctly from another site - "a Zionist" and in consequence "always wrong" - distorts your vaunted moral vision.

"When liberals join forces with people who train their children to become suicide bombers and teach them to call Jews ‘apes and pigs’, something is wrong."
(Denis MacE)

I am quite sure the author of the above quote - definitely British born, British resident, and an academic Arabist - will already be casting "a cold eye" over the offending scripts. I await with interest that (always scrupulous) analysis.

Frank Pulley

The BBC has always been a propaganda machine. Once upon a time the propaganda was for the benefit of Britain (and the rest of the Free World) and how successful it was. Now its leftist political propaganda (in conjunction with its newspaper arm the Guardian) is directed largely against Britain's and the Allied armed services at a time when they are in harm's way. Now they want to do it in Arabic? That was once called treason. It still would be if we were any longer a definitive 'nation'. We are not; we are a failed multicultural experiment and England is no longer recognisable as the country that we early 1930s brats were born into. Andrew Neil, on This Week (tonight) featured an item that asked, "Why are 'we' British so angry?" He needs to ask such a question? I think not! In one year's time I shall legally cease to pay the TV licence fee. At least that will be one strand of traitorous extortion removed from my yoke. But it is small beer when placed beside the demands of the multi-faceted Head Extortionist - the Govan Gargoyle with the rictus sneer. Today I paid as much for a tank of petrol as I paid for my first car. That is no yoke; it's a public scandal that nobody is addressing. Blaming the 'market' simply won't do - it is a cartel and the government is the main beneficiary. And some of the trolls who support this lot and buzz this blog from time to time have the audacity to demand that we are polite to them? F-f-f-fade away, you f-f-feeble f-f-f-fools! You should stand as an independent candidate for the London Mayoral election, Melanie. You would win by a country mile. Just submit Londonistan as your manifesto.

Frank Pulley

Alex

Melanie doesn't have to 'square' anything. She not only has a right but, as a journalist with integrity,a duty to appear as often as she can to counterbalance the leftist garbage that is spewed from this 'public service' organisation financed by extorting licence fee payers and taxpayers.

Bob Gray

Letters to the Telegraph,26th March.

"...According to independent surveys, BBC Arabic is regarded as the most trusted international broadcaster in the region. You do not win that hard-earned reputation without providing detailed, accurate and impartial coverage of news - without fear or favour - whatever the story."

Richard Sambrook, Director, BBC Global News Room, London WC2
I contacted the BBC, requesting information regarding the 'independent surveys'. At which particular point in my life should I give up hope of a reply?

Mike

KateA: Since I've not had the privilege of meeting Melanie, I'm hardly in a position to either 'like' or 'dislike' her. I've often said how brilliantly she commentates on many subjects, its simply that I disagree with most of what she has to say about the Middle East, Zionism and her support of the discredited neo-con Administration presently in the White House. Also I support Barack Obama's bid for the Democratic nomination although by instinct I'm a Republican. Finally, I oppose people who challenge Israel's right to exist, but firmly believe that Zionism is the real enemy of the Jewish people, and is the direct cause of much suffering on this planet. Also I believe it is responsible for the reported increase in 'anti-semitism' and the potentially tragic consequences that could arise therefrom. There are many outlets for present-day Zionist propaganda - one doesn't have to move too far away from what is written in Melanie's blog and others to find it! My desire is to maintain a 'fair shake' for the other side of the argument which, due primarily to the internet, is now with us after many years of media domination by the other. Perhaps the new BBC Arabic Service and Aljazeera-English are adjusting the balance. It is this, perhaps, that you are finding it hard to deal with. Melanie certainly is.

Geoff Miller

Despite much pressure from European governments and media crackdowns the Fitna film about Islam is on Live Leak.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103&p=1

Please distribute widely.

Dave

Still wondering. Is it legal to punish a population for the actions of a group. By say blowing up a power station?

Ricardo

Mike says: "However, since the BBC Arabic Service is designed to provide news and comment directly to millions of Arabic speaking people, and since the news gatherers and commentators are presumably either Arabs or Iranians, then it is perfectly reasonable for them to view all their news output in that light."

In other words, they have a right to be biased. Why?

We told the BBC specialises in "balance", which I find every hard to believe anyway, but why should this Arabic service be exempt from the journalistic criteria - no matter how shoddily adhered to - the rest of the BBC is supposed to follow?

If the Arabs want to pump out biased propaganda, that's fine, but why is this BBC service funded by the British taxpayer?

phil

Mike in an earlier post you told me you had spent many years in Arab lands in connection with your job and therefore had sympathy with their cause -since I believe you are a sincere man I suggested you take a holiday in Israel and thereby communicate with the population there ,and find out what those people are really about -I suspect you would get a surprise -for a start you would find out that Zionism is not what you think or you could try wikipedia (not as good)-It would mean to all of us that at least one soul might change his perception of the Jewish people

Mike

Ricardo: No BBC journalist has the 'right' to be biased, and no one can convince me that any professional journalist hired by the BBC Arabic Service or Aljazeera-English deliberately sets out to be biased. They report and comment as they see it. Obviously one side of the argument or the other will find some reason to criticise it either for saying something or not saying it. Talk to any professional journalist and they will admit that sometimes they are in a 'no win' situation. For example visit Philip Jacobson's report at http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/?storyID=25716 where he covers Shmuel Eliyahu’s recent comments. Jacobson also quotes a fellow rabbi, Gilad Kavi, who 'has pulled no punches in condemning Eliyahu's intemperate remarks, noting that "Jewish history is rife with extremists whose fanaticism brought disasters upon the nation while sullying its moral character."
Since these latter comments are clearly an indictment of 'Jewish history' is this reporting acceptable to you or not? Perhaps you would have preferred for these comments to have been omitted.

Gordon Neil

Questions that come to mind...On what basis does the British Government justify to the taxpayer the use of our taxes to create and maintain a specific arabic broadcasting service. ? Where does it publish the service's stated aims and objectives and how do they relate to the justification offered for it's existence ? What taxpayer-benefit criteria is the service intended to meet ? What journalistic and other related output standards is it required to abide by and by whom and how is adherence to those standards monitored ? How does it vet and monitor the service to ensure that vested interests do not use it to project their own agenda ? As a publicly funded service the BBC and FO must be held to account for their stewardship. A free parliament would be the obvious solution. Unfortunately we do not have a free parliament, we have a rubber stamping institution that simply gives spurious legitimacy to an elected dictatorship.

phil

Come on now Mike .you know I read carefully your posts -but the last one does stretch my credulity if you think orla guerin ,jeremy bowen ,robert fisk and alan johnson dont show bias -these people do no good to the cause of peace -they just inflame the situation and particularly to a group of people who have little access to the outside world ,the beleagured souls in Gaza have probably never met an Israeli and will see them as monsters because of the distorted images they are provided with -I have no truck with extremists from the Jewish angle either they bring shame on the vast majority of us and represent almost none,We need balance and then calm to begin ,and soon .

Ravi

Who can forget BBC 5Live phone-in "Should Israel exist?". I remember Richard Bacon giving Jerry Lewis a hard time but the Islamists on his program a free ride. I remember Babara Plett pletzing over Arafat's death. Orla Guerin's report from a Lebanese town showing how it was completely destroyed "not a building unaffected by bombs" while the Channel 4 broadcaster filmed hi sastonishment at the precision bombing that concentrated on Hezbollah position in the middle of the town but left the surrounding houses untouched. Bowen's rage at Qana - which proved to be a stage managed event with some claims that the bodies were from a mortuary. Melanie and I can attest to the rampant Antisemitism that was left to fester on BBC 5 Live messageboards until the Borad of Deputies had to step in and make high level contact at the BBC.

Adam B.

Dave, Hamas is not just a "group" as you put it, it is the governing power in Gaza. The population of Gaza voted for this "group" that promotes (and acts on) the genocide of the Jews. Funny I never hear the left talk about the indiscriminate bombing of Israeli towns and villages by Hamas as "collective punishment" or "illegal". Your focusing on only one side makes me question your motives. If the law was truly your concern, would you not be examining the entire picture? Perhaps you can point to the law in question? By the way, I take it that you regard the British bombing of Germany in the Second World War to be "illegal"?

patricia

Here we go again...

Last week it was CAMERA, now its Trevor Asserson, the latest in a long line of Mel-Friends, whose single minded bias overwhelms their ojectivity.

When will Phillips stop pretending that lobbyists such as Asserson and Camera are in some say impartial?

With such extreme views it is hardly suprising that Phillips can only quote such clinically prejudiced voices.

But its transparently obvious and boring for those who come here to read serious journalism and not propaganda.

Frank Pulley.

Dave: You say >"Still wondering. Is it legal to punish a population for the actions of a group? By say blowing up a power station?"<

Perhaps you should spend some time wondering what you would do if your neighbour aimed high explosives into your back yard every day (it could yet happen). If it were me, I'd not only cut off their electricity, I'd cut off their cojones. The West is standing by and letting Israel take the flak as a safety valve for the rest of us and the BBC is backing the enemy. We need more proactive stuff, not less.

BTW I just received today's Speccy and have read that the article by David Selbourne who seems even angrier than I was in my post in the small wee hours on this thread; and he expresses it much more pungently – exquisitely, even. A must read folks if you haven't already. Seems the impetus is increasing. Be afraid - you current incumbents; and as for aspiring competitors, take note. The silent majority now has a clear voice. You had better resonate.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Mike, I am puzzled by your statement "Finally, I oppose people who challenge Israel's right to exist, but firmly believe that Zionism is the real enemy of the Jewish people." Zionism is the belief that the Jews (as defined by ethnicity, not religious belief) should have an independent self-governing nation state in the historic Jewish homeland, that -- at the time the movement began -- was a tiny and sparsely occupied part of the Ottoman Empire. There are only two possibilities. One, that you believe that the creation of Israel was a mistake but that the state, now created, should be prserved in order to prevent another mass slaughter of jews by those who prefer to see them dead or enlsaved. This is the position of, e.g., the Agudat Israel and much of the traditional Orthodox world, as opposed to the Modern Orthodox who have integrated Zionism with Orthodox Judaism, or the tiny and perverted Neturia Karta who conspire with terrorists to abolish Israel. The second is that you have not the slightest idea of what Zionism means, and have taken your definition of the term from the distorted propaganda of the extreme left, the extreme right, and the Nazi-inspired Arab propaganda machine.

Mike

Careful Phil. I don't need to vsit Israel to have a perception of the Jewish people. My admiration for their achievements, their contribution to the arts, music, film, medicine, the commercial world, (they can even play football) is boundless. As you know perfectly well Phil, my argument is with the policies of the State of Israel and the Zionists who implement same. Not the Jewish people at large. I've read Robert Fisk's tome, 'The Great War for Civilisation - The Conquest of the Middle East', and often read his column in the 'Independent'. In my view his prose is impeccable, and he reports fairly on what he finds in Lebanon and Beirut where he has lived for the past 20 years or so. Of course he has a view on the effect Israel has on his adopted country, but also that of Syria, Iran and its support of Hizbullah and the Shiites of the South. He also has a view on the Sunnis, the Druze, and not least the Maronite Christians of the 'Mountain'. He reports it as he finds it and enjoys friends amongst them all, otherwise he couldn't do his job, and worse his life would be worthless. Perhaps it bothers some folk that he rates the ethnic cleansing of the Armenians by the Ottomans the FIRST Holocaust and that of the Jews of occupied Europe by Nazism as the SECOND. One wonders where this places the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 1948? My words not Fisk.

Adam B.

Patricia, what on earth is "extreme" about Melanie's article?

Ricardo

"When will Phillips stop pretending that lobbyists such as Asserson and Camera are in some say impartial?"

Erm, excuse me, patricia, why don't you disprove the arguments put forward by Mr Asserson? 17 to 5 is quite clearly an imbalanced figure. More importantly, if somebody on the news says something about any government policy that plainly isn't true, you're supposed to challenge them. There is no US policy ‘to crush the Palestinians completely and to take all of their lands,' a fair-mined journalist would challenge this.

You bang on about "extreme views" and "clinically prejudiced voices" but don't provide a shred of evidence to support these claims – quite unlike Mr Asserson.

Mike, I've not asked anyone to sanitise Jewish history and nor would I.

You say the BBC Arabic Service and Aljazeera-English "report and comment as they see it". I'll ask you, too, where is this US policy document that says it is American policy ‘to crush the Palestinians completely and to take all of their lands'? Why wasn't the person who said this asked to justify it?

phil

patricia if you are bored here why come ?try the london calling web site I think you will love it ,and leave less for us to be bored with -but you love to come here dont you?its easy, say something nasty ,feel good and go .no cost ,no comeback ,wonderful -have a nice day
here

Frank Pulley

An admirer of Robert Fisk, eh Mike? You have done more to establish your credentials in that stanza than in the sum total of all you other previous rants. This blog is replete with Fiskites as no doubt you have noticed. To borrow one of Melanie's expressions of exasperation, "Ye Gods!"
Is masochism your bag?

Nick Kaplan

Mike; I would agree that it is (probably) “perfectly reasonable” for an Arab broadcasting company to broadcast news with an Arab perspective. However are you aware of what the acronym BBC stands for? This is a British “company” paid for by the British tax payer, and I don’t want my money spent on propagating views that seek to destroy my way of life. I find it an absolute joke that the BBC finds it necessary to waste my money on the various programmes it makes here even if I don’t want to watch any of them. But it’s an utter disgrace that it even has an Arabic service, given that it’s paid for by the British tax payer, which is just made worse by the horribly bias, verging on anti-Semitic, garbage that it apparently reports.

Ravi

I alway laugh at statements like Last week it was CAMERA, now its Trevor Asserson, the latest in a long line of Mel-Friends, whose single minded bias overwhelms their ojectivity.. What a waste of space and waste of breath. Don't MPAC UK or MCB have biased agendas with no objectivity? How about the Zionist Support Wing of Hamas? Heard from them recently? Ever tried to buy three cod with large chips and two mushy peas at Toys R Us? Guess what, organisations exist for their purpose! Doh!

Mike

Ahad Ha'amoratzim: As it turns out the creation of Israel as a State was a mistake on the piece of real estate it now occupies. I've sat many times in the desert at night with Bedouin friends and looked up at god's wondrous night sky laden with stars of which we know so little, listened to the tales of the desert, of camel races and the code of hospitality of these Arabs (albeit through an interpreter) and wondered to myself what on earth are people from the centre of Europe, with all their foreign baggage, doing disturbing the peace by setting up their camp in a place like this. But Israel exists, its a fact, and it simply defies commonsense that it shouldn't continue to do so if it is necessary to prevent 'the mass slaughter of Jews' in the places from whence they came. I just wish Israel was making a better job of running their camp in the midst of their self-generated mass of hostility.
Ricardo: I've not asked you to 'sanitise' Jewish history. Please don't try and put words in my mouth.
Frank Pulley:Regrets but I can't deal with your invective. Try again - nicely!

Ricardo

Do me a favour, Mike.

The only person who tried to put words in someone's mouth was you. I never mentioned anything about Jewish history until you came up with this: "Since these latter comments are clearly an indictment of 'Jewish history' is this reporting acceptable to you or not? Perhaps you would have preferred for these comments to have been omitted."

You clearly wanted a reply to that, which is why you put a question mark in there, and I was happy to oblige.

PHIL

Mike I do admire your literary skills as portrayed here today in spades ,but nevertheless it only poses more problems without answering any of those that I have referred too -As for what I said ,Robert Fisks description of the Lebanese war last year was an abomination ,.Lebanese themselves have told me how untrue the tales of the bombing/massacres were and surely he knew it -if he didn't he shouldn't have said it -either way he was just plain wrong -He is smart enough to know that only hisbullah wanted that war ,I don't want to waste space here, we both know what I am talking about .His rating of Holocausts just shows what that man is about. who cares which came first or second? everyone is a condemnation of mans inhumanity to man and his league tables shame him .I,me glad you don't attempt to defend the others ,that would be too much . I have to say that your reply to Ahad rather shocked me -yes the one about the real estate-where on earth do you think they should have gone -it is of course where they originated .After the second world war I remember a song whose words encapsulate the whole situation that confronted the Jews -I will not ask you to translate from the Yiddish but it goes like this ---OH WHERE CAN I GO ,THERE IS NO PLACE TO GO ,EVERY DOOR IS CLOSED TO ME etc soulful yes ,but true and for Yiddish speakers vayhi zoluf gain etc.Lastly and once again I need to say that the word Zionist means the Jewish peoples desire to live in peace in the land of Israel ,no cleansing ,no aggression just life for a scattered people -look it up in Wikipedia -You have disappointed me today Mike because I see you as a sound and caring person and I suppose I expect better from you-NO COMMENTS PLEASE FROM THE LIKES OF PATRICIA /LONDON AND CO-I AM NOT INTERESTED -THIS IS FOR MIKE

YA

Mike, - your negative opinion on Zionism is well understood. Millions of people in Sudan, Iran, Indonesia and so on share this opinion with you. Majority of them are probably just happy with "apes-and-pigs" and "protocols" argumentation. You are more informed - Fisk, Guardian, Jewish Lobby, George Galloway. But does it really matter where you get it from? - as far as this view is correct and consistent..

Frumious Falafel

Dave -- it seems to me that an attack upon an electrical station is a fairly straightforward thing in war. I guess I'm not quite understanding your broader point about collective punishment.

I would understand your problem if bombs were dropped directly upon population centers with the obvious intent of killing as many people as possible. Certainly that would be a rather "direct" way of collective punishment (by death). But I guess I would ask, in a war, what exactly would you have Israel, or Hezbollah for that matter, do? Hezbollah tried to target their missiles at Haifa's industrial zone. And by the same token, Israel tried to target missiles at electrical power plants. I'm honestly at a loss to see how you would have either of them act differently. In a sense, isn't every missile strike a form a collective punishment? Whether that strike kills multiple people or industry, many people are "punished." Am I missing something? Would you have H3ezbollah and Israel send their missiles towards different targets? Please explain. Thanks in advance.

Geoff

"A 'fair shake' for the other side of the argument." Mike, this raucous caucus doesn't need your support and maintenance. It can rant and rave and threaten and condemn without your input. Perhaps if you'd spent less nights star gazing in the desert and listening to tales of camel races you'd be free of the romanticism that blinkers your view of the Islamists.

Mike

Dear Phil: Perhaps this link is the one of many to which you refer re Robert Fisk: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fisk/robert-fisks-beirut-diary-a-land-reduced-to-rubble-412568.html
When Fisk refers to the Holocausts in his book he isn't attempting to make a distasteful 'league table' but simply to emphasise the 'forgotten' genocide of so many Armenians in the 1920s. I think if you read his book you may understand better the humanity of the man.
The tragedy of the mass Eastern European occupation of Palestine immediately following the end of WW2, impacted upon a people totally unprepared to accommodate and accept such an 'invasion' of their lands. As you know Arab and Jew got along very well for the most part prior to this time. I don't have a ready answer to where the displaced Jews of Europe should have gone as a group for them to find peace and security but in the light of to-day many must feel it has been a mistake to end up where they are in the midst of such much virulent hostility.

Kennybhoy

Mike. Hello There.

"...and no one can convince me that.."

Please check out the link below

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prejudice

And

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot

BJ

I note from the sebsite of the Asserson campaign website that some of his supporters even object to the BBC referring to the Occupied Palestinian Territories as "occupied territories". Such inconvenient facts are not evidence of BBC bias or succumbing to "the Palestinian narrative. Anyone can see this is part of a pro-Israel campaign.
The BBC indeed has a virtually impossible task in maintaining balance while navigating Middle East conflicts. But if you don't like it you can always watch Fox News - now that really is biased!

Harvey

let's all die of shock...

*yawn*

Roy

It's time the British media bring into perpective and itemise the ammoral dablings with the truth the BBC have entered into. It's also time government ministers should have it pressed on them the facts of the case. Where have the noises of the press disappeared to? Isn't it time they started barking!!

Frank Pulley

Geoff: I like that - "The Raucous Caucas". Poetic! And it will travel.

God bless you, Mike. You do provoke a good rauc. Particularly when you mention the four lettered 'F' word ('Fisk' that is). How about some quotes from St. Pilger of Bondi? That would get you some attention. Keep it coming! I don't think I've seen Verity's response to your romantic world view yet, have I? You'll enjoy it immensely if she decides to give you the once over twice. It will make you tingle from head to foot and you should dine out on it for a week down in Queensway (over the sheeps eyes and sweetbreads). Allahu Akbar!
Difficult to say that with your tongue in your cheek... but not so difficult with a scimitar in your hand, I'm told.

Dave

I'd like to say thank you to those who responded to my question. I think the "journalese" is usually that "International Law" (whatever that is) says this sort of collective punishment is illegal. Which appears to be the point that the BBC Arabic Service made according to Mel.
If that's wrong. Fair enough. Mel's correct.
But so far I'm not convinced. I didn't realise war had actually been declared between Israel and Palestine.
To draw the the usual trite analogy. I've been close to several IRA bombs. They've nearly killed me or members of my family on more than one occasion. Bad luck I know. But I'd never expect the British Army to bomb a power station on the outskirts of Dublin by way or reprisal. Indeed I'm sure that would be wrong.
What am I missing in Mel's "argument" ?

Mike

Phil: Once again I've replied to you, but it hasn't appeared yet. Must be coming via T5!

Ravi

BBC have often used spokespeople from MPAC UK. Asghar Bukhari and his brother for example. MPAC UK believes this "For the many tales of Jewish concentration camps we hear of, the Palestinians live in conditions, which I would argue are much worse" http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/4503/34/#jreactions

Ben-Tsiyon

Why do people like Phil bother to try persuading people like Mike to take a fairer and more balanced view of Israel's place and situation in the Middle East ! It's an absolute waste of time. Like so many of his indigenous countrymen (and the British Foreign Office), Mike has this rapturous love affair with the Arabs, coupled with a predisposition towards that oldest prejudice that he tries to disguise with his references to his "Jewish friends" and his professed "admiration" for the Jewish people. People like Mike, along with the biased foreign news media personnel, should not be welcome in Israel. Who cares whether or not these "Mikes" could "change their perception of the Jewish people"!

Commondog

Mike.
Re Your: March 28th, 2008 1:58pm

Your make no sense.
By that I don't mean you make a sense that I don't agree with. I mean the sentences do not go together to form an explicable argument.
Would you look at it again please and re-cast it so that I can grasp the direction of your ideas. I got all the stars/camels/exotic other bit, but all the rest?

ajmalkov

PS Mike, Jews are not interlopers "from the centre of Europe" who came to claim an alien land. That is a shockingly ignorant statement. I suggest you investigate the archeological record, if you are at all interested in facts. Furthermore, you sound just like Ahmadinejad. Interesting how the same libels keep circulating like poisoned air.

Note to Mike: what enrages us most are not the insults like "apes, pigs, dogs," etc. That enrages us are the obvious lies that Fiskies like you try to pass off as facts. This insults our intelligence.

Dee Ranged

A 17-minute documentary on the Quran, juxtaposing images of Islam's holy book with terror attacks and bombings by Muslim extremists, was taken down from a British video-sharing website, LiveLeak,com, after the organization reported "serious" threats to its staff members.

The documentary had been posted against the wishes of the government of the Netherlands by Geert Wilders, a Dutch MP and leader of the Freedom Party. His video is called "Fitna," an Arabic word meaning strife.

It appeared on the political party's website first, but soon disappeared because of "technical difficulties," reported the London Times. Then it appeared on LiveLeak.com, only to be replaced with an advisory.

"Following threats to our staff of a very serious nature, and some ill informed reports from certain corners of the British media that could directly affect the safety of some staff members, LiveLeak has been left with no other choice but to remove Fitna from our servers," the organization said.

It is now on YouTube in two parts.

Mike

After this exchange of views it would seem to some that the Palestinian/Israel issue seems to boil down to 'either you're with us or against us' - with no attempt to try and understand the other side of the argument. Unfortuantely, I have neither the itellectual reach nor 5000 years of history in my blood-line to comprehend the Zionist mind-set. But what commonsense and the history of Palestine in recorded time tells me is that Israel is in the wrong and the Palestinians are in the right. Claims of possession derived from a bad history, pseudo-biblical claims and false archeological conclusions defy belief. I'm out of this thread -the Boat Race calls. We must all move on.

phil

Mike I,m sorry to see you taking such stick I do not agree with some of your views as you know but I dont see them as venemous , as some here seem to .What i do think is that you have read from the wrong papers and books and it is understandable that your views are so influenced by Arabists -I just hope I have given you food for thought -you read Melanie as well as mr Fisk so we have made a start (lol)

Don

I am troubled by many of the responses. Surely the only issue should be requiring a news service to be professional. If it isn't, don't fund it.

Max Kaye

Melanie - please help put pressure on the BBC to publish the Balen Report. Attempts via the FOI act have, to date, failed.

Is there no honest BBC employee who can get his/her hands on a copy and leak it?

YA

Today, "Khartoum" on BBC 5. That doesn't look like coincidence, message is complementary to Fitna. Let us hope there is silent "resistance" inside BBC. I actualy underestimated Fitna, that combination of consistence and simplicity must be armor-piercing on Muslims. It should pose mental dilemma even for jihadis - "Koran is right, Imams are right, infidels got what they deserved - oops, eeeh, how do I justify that the message is offensive?". It is quite sharp - or I am that bloody pig, - if not, then Islam is that bloody garbage.

Rob

This from Mike is just nonsense:

"The tragedy of the mass Eastern European occupation of Palestine immediately following the end of WW2, impacted upon a people totally unprepared to accommodate and accept such an 'invasion' of their lands. As you know Arab and Jew got along very well for the most part prior to this time."

Arabs were rioting against Jewish immigration as early as 1920. In 1929 Arab extremists massacred the Jews in Hebron, where they had lived for centuries. And in 1935 a territory-wide revolt was launched by the Arabs to counter Jewish immigration and land acquisition.

And these were only the major acts of violence against Jewish immigrants. Rape and murder of Jewish settlers by Arab brigands was commonplace throughout the period of the British Mandate.

Such was the hostility between the two peoples that the Peel Commission, set up to inquire into the cause of the Arab revolt, saw partition as the only possible solution. Then, as now, the Arabs rejected the 'two state solution'.

The seeds of this conflict go right back to the early 20th century, when the Arab writer Neguib Azury predicted in 1905 that the Jews and Arabs were destined to fight each other until one triumphed over the other. One did.

jose garcia

I just read the speaker of the commons just spent 1.7 million of taxpayers money over 10 years "refurbishing" his residence, he is also bloking the publication of the MPs expenses.

Do we still expect ANY standards from any official institutions?

are we that naive?
the answer to the BBC is for it to go commercial, at least then it will still be biased but will cost us nothing.

BBC is biased
C4 is biased

nearly al media is like that this days

GaryL

"Arabs were rioting against Jewish immigration as early as 1920. In 1929 Arab extremists massacred the Jews in Hebron, where they had lived for centuries."

To rally the Arabs to riot against Jews their leaders didn't appeal to any sense of nationalism or anti-colonialism. They pretended the Jews intended to demolish the Mosque. Nationalism or self-rule was a meaningless concept for them.

In 1908, before the British, and before the Balfour Declaration, Arabs rioted against Jews because some of the new Jewish towns had organized their own defence. That was viewed as an outrageous over-turning of the natural order. Jews had no right to defend themselves. They had to pay Muslims for that.

GaryL

This is an example of an absence of logic - "Unfortuantely, I have neither the itellectual reach nor 5000 years of history in my blood-line to comprehend the Zionist mind-set. But what commonsense and the history of Palestine in recorded time tells me is that Israel is in the wrong and the Palestinians are in the right. Claims of possession derived from a bad history, pseudo-biblical claims and false archeological conclusions defy belief."

An admission of ignorance of history and communal identity across the ages, being used as an all-encompassing argument that the same history and identity is false. It's fortunate that some among us base our thoughts on knowledge, rather than insist that one person's ignorance should be everyone's criteria for judgement of rights and wrongs.

He calls it "common sense". It's commonly called nonsense.

Mike

Rob: I wasn't around in the 1920's when the indigenous Jews of Palestine didn't see the need for a Jewish State and also reacted negatively to Zionism. I spoke earlier of 'bad history' and your quotation, in part, is an example. But I was around in 1948 and 1967 and lived in Arab and Iranian lands of the Middle East from 1971 to 1979. Hence my reference to Jewish immigration after WW2 and the consequent ethnic cleansing of what was Palestine and the desperate plight of millions of refugees ever since. What did the Zionists expect to do with these often brutally displaced peoples?

Leslie

Mike,where do you get your information about the "ethnic cleansing of Palestine"?I know you say you were "around" in 1948,but that proves nothing.I was "around"in 1948 too,and my conclusions are in opposition to yours, because there is no proof at all of what you are saying.

Rob

Mike, you're wrong on so many counts that I hardly know where to begin. In the 1920's, Palestine was ruled by the British under a League of Nations mandate that specifically called for the creation of a Jewish national home in the territories administered. It was for that reason, based on the Balfour Declaration, that Britain was given the Mandate.

Under that Mandate thousands of Jews came to Palestine for that purpose, knowing, as they did, that Europe afforded them anything but a safe haven from persecution. Many had of course come earlier, in the days when 'Palestine' was a dusty, neglected province of the Ottoman Empire. They bought land, usually at exhorbitant prices, from absentee landlords in Beirut and Cairo, who sold them swamps and sand dunes, little thinking they would (as the saying goes) 'make the deserts bloom'. But this they did.

No-one was displaced. On the contrary, Arabs from the regions around flocked to Palestine to take advantage of the economic growth and wealth generation of the Jewish settlers.

The British had an idealistic dream: that even though the Palestinian Arabs hated, feared and resented the Jewish settlers, they would (so it was thought) eventually become reconciled because they, too, would benefit from the prosperity the Jews brought to the land. Well, they did benefit, but they were not reconciled.

The die was cast well before 1948. The position of the Arabs has not changed in a hundred years. They want the land back, and the Jews out.

Rob

Coda: And I don't think you've registered, Mike, that the findings of the Peel Royal Commission in 1937 proposed partition (i.e. a two state solution) long before the second world war and the Holocaust, and that they handed the Mandate back of the League's successor organisation, the UN, with thir recommendation that it was the only viable solution for both the Arabs and Jews. Thus giving the lie to the oft-cited calumny that Palestine was given to the Jews as compensation for the Holocaust. Read a little history, even if you weren't around at the critical time (neither was I).

Mike

Rob: Regrets but we're entertaining this evening which means I can't deal in any depth with your latest. Suggest you visit: http://www.cactus48.com/earlyhistory.html and then we can exchange views if you wish.

Leslie: Read Ilan Pappe's 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' where you will find ample evidence that 'Around a million people were expelled from their homes at gunpoint, civilians were massacred, and hundreds of Palestinian villages were destroyed. Though the truth about the mass expulsion has been systematically distorted and suppressed, had it taken place in the 21st century it could have only been called 'ethnic cleansing'.

In haste.

Leslie

Mike,if Pappe is the only source of
proof you have for ethnic cleansing,am not impressed,sorry.

Mike

Leslie: Why are you not impressed by what Ilan Pappe writes? He is an Israeli historian and senior lecturer of Political Science at Haifa University. He's also Academic Director of the Research Institute for Peace at Givat Haviva, and Chair of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies, Haifa. But since you haven't read his detailed book based on meticulous research, including recently declassified Israeli archival material, then I suggest you are not competent to judge what actully happened in 1948. Meanwhile, I do hope you obtain this book, and perhaps you may wish to refer me to any published material which refutes the evidence for the basis of his book. I would be very interested.

Leslie

Mike,Pappe no longer resides in Israel,he teaches at the university of Exeter,I believe.
Now,a couple of his quotes:
" I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings"

"Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers."
My source :Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America

Commondog

Mike
You're entertaining EVERY evening.

George Steiner

You fellows like to go around in circles don't you? But you live in a real wold so stop moaning about it not being ideal. The BBC has an Arabic Service because there are over 300 million Arabs and Britain would like to think that it has some influence over there. The Arabic Service must be biassed, otherwise the Arabs will ignore it. But the service is for the Arab street, the ruling elite knows differently. To the question, "is bombing a power station collective punishment" the answer is this. Of course it is to the Arabs. To the Israeli military it has strategig value as well as punishing these nice peacefull palestinians a bit. Only the British military does the softly softly. Others take war seriously. Those of you who have a benign view of Israel should not get so exercised by this Mikey fellow. He will always find some source or other to suport his views. His favorite attack of questioning your source or credentials is the mark of a pretentious but feeble intellect. You may want to keep this in mind. The one billion or so of the Muslim world generates about 1,600 dollars of wealth per head. The Infidels excluding the Asians and South Americans generate 35,000 dollars per head of wealth. The Muslims are poor SOB's literaly and metaphorically.

Mike

Back to Melanie's original blog:
Try this:

‘Reporters, and in general Westerners who have been inspired by the Western “grand narrative” of freedom, have a natural sympathy for the underdog, those in misery, poverty, dispossessed or rights and decent life. Free journalism played a key role in creating civil society (e.g., in the American and French revolutions of the late 18th century), because it willingly attacked those in power on behalf of those disempowered by them. In that sense all modern journalism is, by natural predilection, “liberal,” and journalists often view their role as bringing information to a larger public that will permit society (now the global community) to right wrongs before or while they happen (e.g., if only the world had known about the Armenian massacres, or the Holocaust, or Rwanda…)’.
Quote from the SecondDraft.org

gurbach

Somebody should mention the real ethnic cleansing that took place in 1948. The cleansing of Jews from Arab land. Jews, who lived in Arab lands since before they were Arab, were expelled en mass. All Jews were expelled from Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Yemen, Morocco, and Tunis, Libya and later from Iran. Also - Jews were expelled from the Jordanian occupied territory of Judea and Samaria (also known as the West Bank). Mike should check the numbers - and compare the number of Jews in Baghdad 1947 and the number of Jews in Baghdad today. Compare the number of Arabs in Israel 1947 and the number of Arabs today. Mike is an ideologue who is trying to make a point and who disrespect the truth.

Mike

Commondog: As the man said, 'You 'aint seen nothin' yet'.

Leslie: As you know perfectly well CAMERA is a 'Group devoted to monitoring and challenging perceived anti-Israeli news coverage'. So 'they would say that wouldn't they?' I think you have to do better. In fact far, far better. Meanwhile, I've e-mailed Ilan Pappe and asked him what he had to say about these alleged comments by CAMERA. More later.

Leslie

"Leslie: As you know perfectly well CAMERA is a 'Group devoted to monitoring and challenging perceived anti-Israeli news coverage'. So 'they would say that wouldn't they?' I think you have to do better. In fact far, far better"

I wonder how I knew this would be your response.
When you decide that you want to start thinking for yourself,Mike,maybe there could be intelligent discussion.

phil

Mike I am reading with interest all your exchanges and it seems to me you are going up a blind alley and cannot find the answers to the questions posed to you have got involved in matters that you have a superficial knowledge of and now seek to defend your opinions -it isn't necessary !! you can admit without losing face that some people know a lot more on this subject than you -I DO NOT DOUBT THAT YOU ARE AN EXPERT IN YOUR OWN FIELD BUT THIS IS NOT IT. Pappe is nonsense and I think you know it and now cant back out -you are unable to answer gurbach about the ethnic cleansing because there is no answer suitable for your cause -I know its true as I have lifelong friends who were victims from Baghdad and Cairo-I actually attended the Ethiopians when they were re settled in Israel many years ago as a young charity member-They came from caves -Falashas -check it out -ask Pappe or Fisk ,you don't have to take my word for it . Rob has made valuable points on a number of issues which you are unable to refute -Maybe my judgement of you is wrong I,E that you are a reasonable and deductive person -I hope not ,I am usually perceptive -If I am right please think again as it is possible that you are wrong you know, and in the end from experience the gentle man and one who can admit mistakes is the strongest -I am not mad at you just disappointed that you are continuing these unwinnable arguments , regards to you ps I HOPE YOU WILL LOOK AT THE* NOT WITH A BANG BLOG* -AND SEE i HAVE BEEN AWARDED DHIMMIE OF THE MONTH BY THE FRAGRANT VERITY-i,m not sure what she means -i dont think she does either ,but i have accepted it and await the trophy.

Mike

Leslie: I've already admitted that 'I have neither the itellectual reach nor 5000 years of history in my blood-line to comprehend the Zionist mind-set'. I'm neither a political analyst or historian nor an idealogue, but hopefully one who recognises injustice when and where it exists. To my simple mind the Holocaust before and during WW2, and the consequences of militant Zionism on the world stage today are the most significant in recent history. I'm not at all sure if the Holocaust would have taken place if the internet had existed at that time. The world would have been alerted to what was happening long before the Soviet Union's Red Army entered Auschwitz in January 1945.

George Steiner: 'A name I think I can do business with'. I agree with the early part of your post on the BBC, but I would take issue with you about a 'feeble mind'. There is so much information, views and comment available to-day at the touch of a button, there isn't much time left to think, unless one is deep in a desert or mid-ocean sea in a small boat! Both of which appeal to me right now. How about you?

Mike

Phil: For my part nice to see you back again. I'd be a complete idiot not to see that what I've been trying to express from my point of view is unwinnable. But for me it's not a question of merely winning but to try and get to the truth. I know that thousands of Jews were expelled from Arab countries as thousands of Palestinians were expelled from Palestine in 1948. I'm fully aware that many Jews in Israel have been killed by Palestinians, and both sides continue to extract reprisals almost daily. For every argument put up by one side, there is one from the other. As George Steiner says 'we go around in circles'. If I hear from Illan Pappe I'll return to Leslie, meanwhile I think it would be more sensible for me to retire to the safer, quieter haven of 'The Independent Jewish Voice at http://www.ijv.org.uk/

phil

Vaya con Dios Mike .I know you mean well -please dont give up just adjust -these blogs need people like us who will listen and not just emit hate - it is us who need to win

Rob

Mike's lost me:

"To my simple mind the Holocaust before and during WW2...."

What part of the Holocaust took place before WW2? The Final Solution (the estermination of European Jewry, rather than their expulsion) was decided upon in 1942, more than two years after the war broke out.

Ben-Tsiyon

Where in heaven's name does Phil get the idea that people like Mike "mean well" ! They are dangerous disseminators of a poison that fuels those who are predisposed to bigotry and the ever increasing spread of the anti-Jewish/Zionist conspiracy theories. As for the rest of you guys, why continue these exchages with him ! He said at one point: "I'm out of this thread....We must all move on.", but he didn't drop out, which just goes to show how much he relishes the repeated opportunities you give him to spout his dangerous propaganda.

Mike

Ben-Tsiyon: Your invective invites me to return to this thread. It always indicates to me that I'm ahead. I don't understand why you work yourself up like this unless you are trying to defend the indefensible. Or else in complete denial of a truth; a truth which is all I'm seeking
in pursuing the Palestine/Israel issue. The reason I need the truth is because it is, for me, the very first requisite in the search for reconciliation and peace.

Mike

Phil: It is easy for me to admit that many people know a damn sight more about the Palestine/Israel issue than I do. Here is just one example. Visit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByZwc9SIUms and try and find the time to watch this talk thru' completion. When you have done so, kindly refer me to any book, video, or any other narrative that refutes all that he has to say. Regrets but it isn't enough to say he is talking 'nonesense' or make any other comment designed purely to denigate him personally. Also I don't think one can dismiss a journalist/historian like Robert Fisk or any other journalist, BBC or not, who is critical of Israel from time to time, and indeed is just as critical of Lebanese and Palestinians.

PHIL

Mike I have been to the u tube site and watched mr Pappe ,and what it did surprisingly prove at least to me that far from ethnic cleansing being done by Israel,it was desperately tried by the Arabs in 1948 and fortunately failed -these are by his definitions ,not mine .he rambled on for nearly 10 minutes saying little or nothing ,so I went a step further and listened to him engaging with the disgusting galloway ,a man with the gift of the gab but little admiration for the truth -I ADMIT TO GIVING UP BEFORE I WAS SICK -I really don't know much about this man Pappe ,but its seems to me he needs treatment in a psychiatric clinic as I am sure he is totally deluded-I said nonsense earlier and I cannot change my mind now-If you really want the truth ,read the old newspapers of the time (any),you will surely see who was attacked ,who was to be pushed into the sea,and who would be the beneficiaries of the violence -not the Jews Mike !!-- As for mr fisk ,you will have noticed that I do not issue invective to people just because I do not agree with them-if they tell the truth as they see it I probably will try to dissuade them but when they so distort the facts as he did in the Lebanon conflict,then I have no respect for them at all.I have to say I do not denigrate journalists who criticise Israel per se only the ones who tell lies and have a different agenda to you and I----just for Ben-Tsiyon.i understand your passion and frustration ,your loyalty too ,but we cannot win by insulting people who engage us -its those that do not, we need to worry about ,I just think Mike has gone up a blind alley and is too embarassed to get out ,so Mike please believe I have been involved in this history a lot longer than you and in fact mr Pappe, so I think its quite possible I know a lot more at this time -regards to you both M and BT

Mike

Phil: May I share the 'sick-bowl' with you? I couldn't agree more about Galloway. In fact I don't want to watch that video. However, what I really would like to see is a debate between Dr Pappe and Melanie Phillips, but not on 'YouTube', but at prime time BBC 1 or 2. Now that would really be something! How about it Melanie - if you're listening? Which reluctantly brings me to the point Phil. What I'm awaiting is evidence contrary to all Dr Pappe has to say about 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine'. I'm looking for a definitive rebutal of all he says and has written. Believe me, I've searched and searched but can find nothing but the usual invective rubbish. To do this it is necessary to watch all parts of his talk, and ideally to read his book. I hesitate to say it, but one shouldn't be side-tracked by his chat with Galloway. Finally I don't know you at all well, but my guess is that invective simply isn't your style, and hopefully it isn't mine either. Thank god we are agreed on that!

phil

Mike do you remember Kevin Keegan,s famous outburst about beating man utd *i,d love it * well if we could arrange that debate with Melanie and Ilan Pappe !!!!!!!!!!!!come on Melanie the beeb would love it too .But Mike on your other point it isnt possible to prove a negative .although all my younger life I knew the ethos of Israel was to *be a light unto nations*and that is the one I used to visit -idealists ,a land of kindness and patriotism -times have changed them as they have been under attack for 60 years ,they are tougher and more defensive now, which I have said before I know ,but repitition does not change the truth -Isaw Brian Keenan on tv tonight (BBC)castigating Israel for the Lebanese war ,blaming them and not Hisbullah,not even the Islamics who kidnapped him ,and chatting to your friend Fisk accusing them of being torturers and people who love to kill-how do you think Israelis and their friends react to this sort of thing .make them more loving?.I believe he is a very disturbed man and who wouldnt be after what he went through ?,but the BBC didnt need to put this out and further fuel the hatred-We saw the bombed out villages and pictures of the dead no one said this was Hisbullahs territory of tunnels and rocket launchers and no mention was made of the dead and deformed in Israel -I only mention this because I am trying to persuade you how much propoganda and untruth is fuelling this debacle It is actually a great example of the difference in rhetoric of both cultures with the Israelis losing hands down by trying to deal in facts -on this very site we read Wahida and Verity pouring out their vitriol from both sides -hate abounds and we all suffer -even when Iappeal for less of this I am awarded a dhimmie of the month(whatever that is) by the ludicrous verity -really what chance do we have when people like that have no wish for accomodation, just a cheap jibe to fuel their own egos and at what cost to ourselves -well I have been a busy boy today so I think I will go to bed now and maybe say a prayer for peace for all -recuerdos amigo

Mike

I also watched Brian Keenan's story of his return to Beirut, and it brought back a lot of memories for me, but not being held as a 'hostage' thank god. I don't want to dwell on your criticism of this programme since it would only fuel this debate in entirely the wrong direction. But I'm sorry old chap you still haven't answered my question. If we are to return to the halcyon days of both our youths, then the truth must be admitted before reconciliation and any chance of a permanent peace could be achieved. Perhaps, someone else could respond to my need to prove conclusively that Dr Illan Pappe's version of Israeli history in 1948 is a total fabrication based on a series of lies. If this isn't forthcoming then one can only conclude that Zionism is still 'unfinished business' in so far as the Palestinians are concerned.

Paul

Israel gave up long ago joining in a debate that seems to argue whether or not it has a right to exist.Israel today is a modern,thriving country and in the same way that we don`t sit around debating whether the English or the French have a right to exist nor do they.
In this sense perhaps it`s not so much that Israel is doing a poor job in arguing it`s case but more that it ceased to see itself in those terms long ago.
Meanwhile the cut and thrust of debate is alive and well as can be seen from the lively correspondence on this sight.
Reading all the views etc expressed I sometimes feel it`s easy to loose sight of what to me is at the very core of any debate concerning Israel.
To put the whole thing into some kind of perspective I think it`s important to focus on the fact that Israel is a tiny country [about the size of Wales I believe...] and is the only country in the world where Jews are able to live without the historical baggage of anti-semitism which has been their lot throughout so much of their troubled history.
In contrast to this,there are many Muslim countries where a Muslim can live amongst their own and there are many Arab countries where one can live as an Arab and enjoy all the benefits that that entails-,so come on guys give the Jews a break why don`t you.....?

phil

Mike I have tried hard to explain why we cant prove Pappe,s words are untrue .If you look at a piece of cloth that most of us have learned is red and you see it as green we have a problem - I cannot prove to you that what he says does not exist , nor do I see him as a beast,just deluded and on a roll and selling books and lectures -I don't think he would make very much on tour supporting Israel -do you ? Mike I have given a fulsome explanation on a number of blogs as to what Zionism is (check it on wikipedia)and yet you still denigrate it ,so it seems to me that you perceive it as something else -am I right ?If my description is correct why would anyone speak against it-I WILL ANSWER THAT FOR YOU -ITS BECAUSE THE WORD HAS BEEN CORRUPTED BY THOSE THAT WISH TO CORRUPT -so lastly I will ask you to check out its real meaning before we become exhausted .

Mike