Richard the lion-hearted

GaryO

He can talk until he is hoarse, but is anyone really listening?

Liz

Don't worry Mel. I'm sure as we speak, the BBC and other like-minded organisations are busy squirreling away trying to find some muck to throw at Col Kemp. It's only a matter of time.

Alex Bensky

It will do no good, of course. When Hamas, whose openly-declared tactics are to use civilians as shields and to put weapons depots and emplacements in hospitals, mosques, and schools, draws no criticism whatsoever, it's not likely that the criticism of Israel is based on misguided information that will now be corrected.

In the case of the Palestinians charges of Israel's battlefield barbarity are most likely what psychologists call projection--it's what they'd do if they could. But the Palestinians clearly don't fully believe their own propaganda--there are numerous reports that during Operation Cast Lead people would run up to the roof of a building when a gunship or airplane began to make a run. They would wave to show they were there and the aircraft would peel off and come back a few minutes later. Nor has anyone denied that the Israelis made thousands upon thousands of phone calls warning Gazans that their buildings were targets.

All this brings to mind Eric Hoffer's remark that Jews are the only people expected to act like Christians.

Worried

@GaryO: This is the problem with all that M writes and other noteworthy stories, such as the one today about the rise of anti-semitism in Sweden. Let's see if America can still rise to the challenge, else we are all doomed.

Woody

A lion-hearted soldier indeed. But the dark clouds are ever rolling in over Britain. Islam is about to cast its sinister shadow even over Britain's army college Sandhurst (where Colonel Kemp received his military training) withyet another mosque. Will Sandhurst soon be an annexe to that mosque?

paul

my political thoughts are not left or right wing i just try to seek out the truth, and part of that that truth for me is that israel as every right to defend herself against pure terroist evil along with the rest of the free thinking world, and we free thinkers now where the evil is comming from.

Ros

And now I see that the EU is about to issue a condemnation of Israel for having assassinated the terrorist, notwithstanding that there's no proof that Israel had anything to do with it. The sheer hypocrisy, spite and venom of this crowd is just appalling. It simply gets worse. I think that Richard Kemp is a man of principles but he'll no doubt have mud slung at him because of these. Even today, hidden during the BBC news this morning, it was reported that 21 civilians had been killed 'by error' in Afghanistan. Where's the outcry? The cries of 'War Crimes'? The Pallywood photos on the front pages of all the newspapers and Mads Gilbert decrying the 'genocide'? I'm giving up.

Johnnie Barleycorn

Speaking out does do good - the collective shoulder shrug simply allows the dark side to quietly carry on rolling up the righteous. The Wilders trial, the Swiss minaret ban, the Malmo revelations of anti-semitism are slowly wakening the West. Will the sluggard stir before Iran detonates its first nuclear bomb? Have we left it too late? I still beleive good triumphs over evil - Nazism, Communism, Islamism it's all the same struggle. Israel's cause is our cause.

PW Virginia USA

Alex Bensky...you are right on the money. This also happened during the 1948 war of Independence.Attested by no other than Abbas on the fleeing of his family from Safat because of feared Jewish action in response to the Arab atrocities of 1926...Also the brutality commited to the bodies at Gush Etzion. The Arabs feared that the Jews would behave just like them thus the fleeing from villages during that war..

Liz

Jonnie Barleycorn - what really worries me is that the Islamification of the West will increasingly make life more and more difficult for Jewish communities. They will inevitably be drawn, in ever increasing numbers, to live in Israel. And all time Iran continues with its nuclear programme unabated. Doesn't take too much intelligence to fit the pieces together, does it? Please Gd I'm wrong.

Merlyn

I see a lot of pessimism here about 'it will do no good'... however,the pen is mightier than the sword and this has become a war of propaganda.
It feels right to continue making our voice heard so that others can hear it, sense its truth and have the courage to stand with us against the tides of hatred. People will wake up if they are prodded.

Merlyn

There are many others who are battling with the Jihadists, such as the Sikhs [2 more were beheaded in Pakistan], Hindus, Christians in Egypt etc, these are our potential allies.

Isaac Bickerstaff

I am sorry to interrupt this thread, but this is an announcement for MICHAEL B.

Would MICHAEL B. please make contact to explain the meaning of the following:

"William Blake, in the words of Owen Barfield, among others, was a genuinely great if too often confused commentator. The telling irony is, your own comment reflects the very type of late modern idolatry both Blake and Barfield were attempting to illuminate. There is additional and still telling irony in the fact that it was Marx and Engels who suggested - nearly a century before the rise of Hitler, Stalin and Mao, et al. - that multiplied millions of peoples, due to their backwardness, would need to be exterminated. (I.e. your own comment, obviously enough, reflects an all too typical Marxian post-colonial analysis and set of assumptions..."

If anyone else feels able to shed any light on this, their help would be welcome.

Thank you.

michael wilson

Remarkable,

Reading the BBC news on the Dinner and Colonel Kemps' address, we see an excess of comments questioning what "wasn't" discussed. The implication being that because no one at the dinner was prepared to "talk" about the ridiculous events mushrooming in Dubai, such lack of discourse indicates what...complicity maybe???

What about actually covering the event as it occurred??

London Calling

As soon as I heard the Taliban were using Afghan civilians as human shields, I thought of Hamas and I am pleased Colonel Kemp has spoken out in support of Isreal and is receiving assistance to deal with this threat of which Israel’s experience is invaluable.

If Gaza wants freedom and for the walls to come down, then Hamas must also lay down its weapons and agree to the right for Israel to coexist in peace. The Land issue is currently at the heart of the main dispute between both sides and should be resolved
And acted upon immediately. The citizens of Gaza have a future, they are resourceful people who have endured much suffering, as well as the citizens of Israel, its time to
end this suffering no matter what.

There is much written about War in the old texts in the Torah, the Old Testament and the third branch the Qur'an, however these texts were written for their time, not our time, and it is my hope that the greatness of knowledge and advancement that Islam contributed in our history can regain its rightful place in the trinity of one faith so that mankind can once again go forward and restore a greatness together.

Three in One is better than none…J

Baron

The country is indeed fortunate that men like Colonel Kemp have the courage and moral strength to stand up to the pseudo-liberal bullies.

Alex Creel

@GaryO - I for one have had my eyes opened and my sense of injustice tweaked by reading Mel's ongoing defence of Israel - keep up the good work and there'll be more converts like me every week!

J. Isaacs

If Colonel Kemp is a lion then Melanie Phillips is a lioness, Straw is a weasel and Milliband is a lemming heading for the cliff edge.

blue_&_white_avenger

Dear London Calling. I disagree with "the Land issue is currently at the heart of the main dispute between both sides and should be resolved
And acted upon immediately."

You are incorrect. What's at the heart of the issue is the arab's inability to accept defeat at the hands of the Jews & Islam's refusal to accept a non-Islamic presence in the Middle East.
They don't want land - they were given Gaza & chunks of the W.Bank. They yearn for, crave & strive for the demise of Israel. Unfortunately, there are quite a few fellow-travellers, useful idiots who also want that. A few are Jews, unfortunately; the majority are just regular antisemites.

Lenny

Do you have any idea where we can we get a copy of this Lionheart's speech?

just Louise

A man of courage, moral as well as physical. Richard the Lionheart indeed.
Would he be permitted to speak at Manchester University now its Students' Union has succeeded in getting the deputy Israeli Ambassador to cancel her speaking engagement there and their ban on all Israeli [and pro-Israel?] speakers?
Look at the video on the Jewish Chronicle website to see these "leaders of tomorrow" chanting "Palestine will be free/From the river to the sea" - a chant that implies the very destruction of Israel.
We need more Lionhearts - clearly, the Israeli Embassy is not among them if it just caves in and withdraws speakers.

Johnnie Barleycorn

Liz - I hope you're wrong as well but see the danger you point to all too clearly. Another cry I hear is that it is better to live in America than Europe. me, I believe we have to fight this thing where we are. Islam is an authoritarian, humorless abnegation of grace I believe we need to continue to point out its inherent contradictions. The West went through this with communism, moving from the uneasy view point that 'communists have a point,' to the Reagan/Thatcher/JPII view that it was in fact wrong and has no place in a developing world which makes, admittedly measured, progress towards universal freedom, democracy and economic opportunity for all. Let us stand by Jewish people where ever they are.

Augustus

By any measure BBC, and other British and International news reporting, is invariably shaded to the detriment of Israel. They focus obsessively on Israeli violence. The Gaza blockade and its consequences for the civilian population with on-the-spot empathy reports
are a favourite theme. As is settlement expansion in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. If rocket attacks from Gaza are mentioned at all, they are vague
and reduced to general references. And the weapons smuggling, foiled terror attacks, extremist statements from Hamas and in the Palestinian media are never reported, neither are the positive reports from Israel like the thousands of Palestinians who are treated each year in Israeli hospitals. But numbers of deaths resulting from Israeli actions are reported time and time again, but without giving the context as to who started the fighting or even mentioning whether they concerned civilian deaths or militants. Then there are always the strong accusations about Israeli cruelties as reported by ordinary Palestinians, UNRWA employees, and various Hamas spokespersons without even an Israeli reponse amongst them, and without a reporter checking their accuracy. But Israeli critics of their government's policy are bound to be featured in reports and interviews, with no one there to support the government. And as for the reporters themselves, they naturally are duty-bound to voice strong criticism of the obstinate Israeli government, while, of course, being mild towards an 'increasingly pragmatic' Hamas, and a perfectly 'moderate', and 'never-in-your-wildest-dreams-corrupt' Abbas government. And so the 'facts' and 'opinions' of the media's biased reporting go on from year to year, without a fair hearing for the Israeli side. Increasingly Israel is being compared to the Nazis and accused of ethnic cleansing, even of a 'new Holocaust'. Gaza is a prison, a ghetto, and even a concentration camp, and the Jews themselves have morphed into the Nazi 'herrenvolk'. In this twisted media world, Israel was created 'at the expense' of the Palestinians, the Palestinians are the ones paying for the Holocaust, and the victims of it are now its perpetrators. To speak of anti-Israeli derangement is to describe it exactly.

cityca

Well said Colonel Kemp, and well done Melanie Phillips for writing it up here.

There is no doubt that the UK many of us grew up in is no longer the same country.

A combination of deference to the EU, the disaster of Nu Labour and the coincidence of aggressive Islamism has turned the UK and most of Europe into nodding and apathetic cyphers, only too willing to accept the diktats of unelected but supremely well rewarded EU Commissioners, Special Representatives, human rights lawyers, the politically correct police and the main stream media.

On the basis that everything is cyclical, how long before the millions of worms turn and take back what has been taken from us, notably, the democratic process that existed before the EU, and in the UK, a public broadcaster that acted on behalf of the public and not on behalf of its vastly overpaid senior management and their celebrity friends, all of whom seem to have forgotten the raison d'etre of the organisation, namely to educate and inform, not to fawn and politicise?

Come to think of it, the most effective way we could all show any government our displeasure with them and with the present state of the UK, is for mass civil disobedience - everyone refusing to pay their licence fee.

Or will the coming election see 60+ million people write 'None of the above', on their voting cards.

just Louise

As an aside re the BBC, it and the Open University have made a series on "Syrian Schools", shown on Monday evenings from 8 to 8.30. I was startled to hear a voice at the end of tonight;s show, as the credits ran, inviting people who want to "twin" their school with one "in the Arab world" to go to their website and click "Syrian schools".
What's this initiative but another piece of BBC propaganda, to bend young minds to the Arab/Muslim viewpoint?

Adam B.

Like Melanie's last sentence, I am optimistic. Whilst the elites of the country are in thrall of the Israel bashing lobby, it is worth remembering that there is a huge disconnect between most ordinary people and the ruling and chattering classes. There are many people who aren't yet indoctinated despite the best efforts of the BBC and co. We have a battle on our hands to bypass these ruling liberal elites in order to reach the middle ground. As Melanie says, with admirable people like Col Kemp, it's game on.

Frank P

Peter Taylor's 'Generation Jihad', in which the utter arrogance of the Muslim activists (aka 'moderate Muslims'); the complete Dhimmitude of the British Police and the depicted evidence that so many provincial cities have already been lost to the enemy, has been utterly blood chilling.
Tonight's episode is not yet on the iPlayer or You Tube, but it's a must watch when they put it up, for those who missed it.

Frank P

btw I wasn't ignoring Col Kemp's spirited defence of Israel, which I heartily applaud; merely pointing out that we have already lost the war here - Israel perhaps still has a chance. At least they are prepared to defend their country bravely, against the odds.

Perhaps Col Kemp might address our country's capitulation next. Except nobody seems prepared to convene a seminar to discuss that, least of all the Leader of HM's Opposition. Too busy importuning the Muslim vote, perhaps?

Roger K

Good on Col Richard Kemp and i have news for Hamas, Britain, the EU and the rest of the conspirators.
Purim is coming.
Haman (Hamas) and his ilk will be hanging from their own high scaffold.

Graeme Thompson

@ michael wilson
February 22nd, 2010 3:24pm

Excellent point. I noticed that the BBC reported Col Kemp's comments on "dark forces" very differently to how Robin Shepherd reported them. I would be very interesting to know what M/s Phillips' recall is?

Lee Jakeman

You mean there are actually some intellectuals among our ineffectuals?

Heather Kennedy

Congratulations, Melanie -- a fine piece!

cityca

Just Louise
I caught that last night and thought exactly the same.

How ironic that the BBC in concert with the Open University are inviting more bending young minds to the Arab/Muslim viewpoint as if that's the only game in town.

No invitations to schools in Sderot to twin I notice.

YA

cityca

Among "BBC Languages" (online courses), there is no Hebrew. But, there are "Luxembourgish" and "Icelandic".

In "BBC World Service", there is no Hebrew either. But, there are "Hausa", "Kirundi", and "Kinyarwanda".

steve bronfman

Kemp's great! Col. West in the USA is also amazing;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgZppLvjvaE&feature=player_embedded

DeeJay

I was privileged this morning to watch a recording of the recent speech to the House of Commons by Sir Gerald Kaufman MP, the distinquished Labour Party politician and, close friend and confidant, of numerous Israeli prime ministers. It must have taken considerable courage and soul searching to make a speech which passionately criticised recent Israeli war crimes in Gaza. It gave me great hope that there is at least one person searching for peace in the Middle East.
It is a measure of the significance of such remarks, made by an individual of such a background, that to its credit, the YouTube website carries the speech in full.

YA

New York Times:
"Blasts Kill Civilians in 2 Afghan Provinces"

Financial Times:
"Nato air strike kills at least 33 civilians"

Ok I got it. Afghan civilians are killed by Nato and by "blasts".

..reading more..

Mirror.co.uk:
"Nato apologises for botched air strike which killed 27 civilians".

Any apologies from "blasts"?

Frank P

Heather Kennedy

I read that as 'Helena' Kennedy for a moment, so when I read your comment I fell off my chair in shock. :-)

Michael White

Col Kemp and his stance represents a beam of light in a very dim United Kingdom at the present time. I just hope he is not carried away like Gert Wilders.

Raymond Douglas

God bless you Mr Kemp ! You are truly a "righteous" among the gentiles !

Graeme

YA,
I had never really given it much thought about the fact there was no BBC Hebrew service but there were services for minor languages. I know that Arabic was the first foreign language in which the BBC broadcasted in January 1938 or 39. This was to counter the propaganda broadcasts to the Arabs by Nazi Germany. Now the BBC does this job of transmitting anti-Israel propaganda to the Arabs.

Liz

YA. I noticed that there was no Hebrew option on the BBC website and emailed them to ask why not. That was over a year ago. The silence still deafening.

Isaac Bickerstaff

Israel has every right to hire Col. Kemp, just as the UN had every right to set up an inquiry under Judge Goldstone. Judge Goldstone had some difficulty getting the Israeli version, because Israel declined to give him it. Col. Kemp has the advantage of talking to the IDF. They will have been able to tell him why they thought they were at war; why they thought it a war of self-defence; how they decided what munitions were appropriate; what their rules of engagement were and how they were put into practice down the chain of command; they will also be able to present to him their version of the incidents they considered controversial (I don't think there were many). He, of course, is at liberty to believe them or not. His fee was no doubt not tied to the conclusions he came to. I am not sure however how he could assess the evidence, since most of it is in Gaza. Did he manage to visit Gaza to try to corroborate the Israeli version?

Frank P

Steve Bronfman

Thanks for the Col West clip; haven't seen anything of him before on Fox News.

If only there were those in public office here in the UK who would take the same line.

It's an inspiring hard-hitting call to common sense about the war on Islam, for those of you who may not have seen it; here's the link again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgZppLvjvaE&feature=player_embedded

Neil Craig

Tbhe number of arabs, both civilian & military, killed in the Gaza war is much less than the civilians killed by us bombing Yugoslavia to help the KLA. It is less than the number of Kosovo Serbs & Gypsies killed by the KLA, in the uniform of NATO police. Indeed it is probabnly less than the numbber of civilians dissected while still alive by these "police" to provide organs for western hospitals.

Because of the horror of that action & our direct involvement if the BBC were unbiased that would have 100 times as much coverage as Gaza. I suspect it has hed under 1/10,000th. If there is an explanation for this disparity that doesn't involve racism & indeed Nazism I have yet to hear it.

cityca

YA, Graeme, liz and others,

The BBC News and Current Affairs has shown bias for as long as I can remember but I've never realised that it's educational arm does the same. I wonder if we can indeed start a movement to get the BBC to offer Hebrew language courses. I can think of a load of excuses why they can't, but no good reasons that aren't discriminatory.

If they can offer "Luxembourgish" and "Icelandic", and the takeup for those two cannot be vast, why can't they offer Ivrit to a potential multi million audience?

DeeJay
FYI, most British Jews would not piss on Gerald Kaufman if he was on fire.

What he is NOT doing is searching for peace - he is a self seeker who, after the recent MP's expenses scandal will be out on his ear come the election, if there is any justice in this world.

YA

Isaac Bickerstaff:

Sure Col. Kemp was hired by Israel. Oh and BTW he is actually a Jew.

Nevertheless, let us consider his thesis about usage of IDF tactics by British army:

"Britain’s alliance with Israel ..has been used to help save the lives of British soldiers."

One can't just dismiss this thesis as lie, because usage of tactics is verifiable fact.
So, the question to you:

If IDF tactics is immoral, why have British army accepted it?

Adam B.

just Louise, I caught "Syrian Schools" and was appalled at the relentless and hateful nature of this piece of propagandistic garbage. Children and teachers spouted the most vicious antisemitic (not just anti-Israel) sentiments which were described as "emotional" by the BBC voiceover. Of course the rantings were never challenged in any way. It was possibly the worst example of antisemitism I have ever seen from the BBC - and that's saying something.

Adam B.

just Louise, Teachers TV did something similar a year ago, supposedly following a school day in the West Bank. Of course it turned into an Israel bashing hatefest, with unsubstantiated allegations made about Israeli soldiers. One allegation was an obvious lie. When I challenged it through Ofcom, I was informed that such allegations didn't need to be investigated or challenged by the programme makers, because it wasn't a news item. So if it's a documentary, any Israel bashing lies can be broadcast without a problem.

Great, isn't it?

cityca

Adam B

I keep saying, unfortunately to no effect so far, that what we need is a dedicated legal force to challenge these slanders against Israel - a new form of law fare but with us taking the initiative.

Law graduates who can't find training places, a legal firm who can offer them desks, backup and guidance and a sponsor who can pick up some of the cost and we could have a new weapon to use against the anti-'Zionists' who get away with murder because they are not challenged.

And for the graduate students, some of these cases could really put their names on the map.

Anyone interested?

anna

The relativists (the Left to you and me) will excuse, rationalise or endorse any atrocity if its perpetrators are anti-America/Israel (when are they not?. It makes no difference to them that our freedom is at stake. Salman Rushdie put it well:
"So much of the left always seems to fall for fascist bastards pretending to be speaking on behalf of the masses. They've done it before with communism in its various forms, and here's another bunch of fascist bastards claiming to be speaking for the downtrodden masses, and they're falling for it again."
Don't expect the religious establishment to rally to the cause, either. They showed their hand over the Danish cartoons. We're on our own in this fight, and more than jihadism is going to go down in it. It will be our great pleasure to dispatch political correctness, cultural relativism and anti-Semitism along with it, once and for all. In fact, those last three are the things we need to defeat first. This stupid PC doctrine is the real fifth column. Nothing softens the spine like it, as we know.

Isaac Bickerstaff

YA
"Sure Col. Kemp was hired by Israel. Oh and BTW he is actually a Jew."

"This is not the first time that the Roman Catholic Col Kemp has spoken out in support of Israel...."

- although I am not clear what the relevance is meant to be of his religious affiliation.

"If IDF tactics is immoral, why have British army accepted it?"

You have certainly raised an interesting question - although I don't think the answer is the one you are looking for.

Archie

Well, arresting comments indeed from the good Colonel, Miss Phillips. What a great pity there are not more of his ilk.

In the Wilderness in America

Terrific article, Melanie.

Colonel Kemp should be praised and thanked for his standing up for Israel and for honor and inegrity.

We in America and you in Britain need more men and women like him instead of totally political hypocrites who see which way the wind blows or are deluded ideologues who have lost their humanity.

Melanie, keep fighting the good fight for Israel. You, like Kemp, are that "morally decent, emotionally balanced, lion-hearted Englishwoman who will defend freedom, truth and justice to the death and will never sacrifice the vulnerable to their enemies."

Adam B.

cityca, I agree completely. This is especially true in light of the fact that the Jihadists have now hijacked the British legal system - witness Hamas terrorists providing "evidence" to British lawyers belonging to lobby groups in order to put out arrest warrants for democratic Israeli politicians. However, I'm not a lawyer, so I would repeat your appeal to anyone who is.

Adam B.

Isaac, as you are obviously a military expert, what tactics do you propose the Israeli and British army use in fighting genocidal and fanatical terrorists? You have a problem with the current tactics? What's a military alternative?

Michael B

In point of fact, Britain owes WWI and WWII era Palestinian Jews a great deal of thanks for their sacrifice and aid during WWII, to some extent during WWI as well. Aaron Aaronsohn is perhaps the foremost example in the latter case (his sister, Sarah, as well!!), while the instances of Jewish heroism in support of Britain and the allies during WWII are many. Moshe Dayan's action against the Vichy French in Syria, the action wherein he lost his eye, is but one example.

It's an unsung piece of history.

Isaac Bickerstaff

Adam B.
I think what I said is misleading. We don't need to get into tactics and methods for protecting soldiers from attack, which speak to the question of professional competence as much as morality. The British Army and the IDF simply have no business attacking Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon or Gaza.

Nicholas

Isaac Bibblewib: "The British Army and the IDF simply have no business attacking Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon or Gaza."

A ridiculous statement, both wrong and partisan on so many levels. The deranged lefto-fascist-jihadist equivalent of writing "On 6th June 1944 the Allies had no business attacking France".

Adam B.

Thank you Isaac. The reason I asked you was to expose the agenda behind your statement. You just did that very well.

Most obsessive Israel bashers complain about this report or that incident, when really their agenda is just anti-Israel under any circumstances. I wish they were up front about it.

Adam B.

Isaac, what business did Hezbollah and Hamas have attacking Israel? What business did Afghan based Al-Qaeda have attacking the West?

Isaac Bickerstaff

Michael B.
I cannot understand why you avoid clarifying what you said. To remind you, you said that it was Marx who foresaw the need to for "multiplying millions" to die because they were backward, and you said that my statements were "post-Marxian" (or some such". So are you saying that Marx endorsed the death of multiplying millions? Are you saying that I endorse the death of multiplying millions?

Isaac Bickerstaff

MickleAss,
"The deranged lefto-fascist-jihadist equivalent of writing "On 6th June 1944 the Allies had no business attacking France"."

Er...no.

So, not wrong on that level. Let us haer about a few more of these levels.

Isaac Bickerstaff

I should perhaps make clear that my criticism of the British Army is no reflection on Israel.

Mr. I. Rondel

Col Kemp should be given the highest honor for being a honest brocker, in this unfair
and biased world.

Adam B.

Isaac, you haven't made anything clear.

Isaac Bickerstaff

Adam B.
"...really their agenda is just anti-Israel under any circumstances..."

- and yet here is an instance where the agenda is anti-British establishment as well. So maybe it is not Israel that is criticised, but whoever behaves in this way, whether Israel, the UK, the US, Russia, China...(And before you reach for your standard retort, this is a site that lauds Israel's behaviour towards the Palestinians, so it is only natural that Israel should be the subject of any criticism here more often than, say, China or Sri Lanka or Russia or whoever. And since the UK and US are frequently cited here in support of Israel's behaviour - they do it, so it must be okay for Israel to do it - the US and UK are next most frequently criticised here.)

Adam B.

Isaac "here is an instance where the agenda is anti-British establishment as well. "

What agenda, and whose? The subject of the thread is Richard Kemp and his observations.

Do you mean your agenda?

Isaac Bickerstaff

"Perhaps the most arresting observation Col Kemp made, however, was that when he was faced with the phenomenon, hitherto unknown to him, of suicide bombing as a tactic used against his men in Afghanistan, he received invaluable advice from the Israeli military on how to combat this threat, advice which formed the basis of official British army guidelines used by soldiers on the ground there. In other words, not only is Britain’s alliance with Israel of critical strategic importance but it has been used to help save the lives of British soldiers."

"The subject of the thread is Richard Kemp and his observations..."

Not just Col. Kemp's observations.

I know you're spoiling for a fight, but surely you can find or fabricate better grounds than this?

Anyway, I'm done with this.

Adam B.

Isaac, I simply don't know what you're getting at - if anything. You made one remark which was hiding an anti-Israel agenda by your own admission, then scarpered.

Try being up front about what you mean next time.

Nicholas

Isaac Bibblewib: "Er...no. So, not wrong on that level. Let us haer about a few more of these levels."

Er...yes. You are another of those who manipulates language to impose your own version of morality on the narrative. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were liberated not attacked. The Israeli Army did not attack Lebanon or Gaza but only the vile terrorists occupying those places. As far as I know the British Army has never attacked Lebanon or Gaza in recent years.

So, Bibblewib, re-read your own sentence, it is wrong on so many levels. For each supposed point there is a counterpoint - something you lefty islamofascophiles dislike and try to eradicate through neat little wheezes like PC.

Philo

Adam B.
Is this thread not also about the Israel's "critical strategic importance" to Britain (presumably in the "war against terror") and also about the behaviour of Britain and Israel in pursuing what they describe as their "war on terror"? Are Mr. Bickerstaff's comments therefore not every bit as relevant as anyone else's here. And Mr. Bickerstaff criticised Britain as well as Israel - so not just "anti-Israel under all circumstances". Presumably if Israel did not behave as it does against the Palestinians, these would be circumstances in which Israel would not be criticised. You clearly want to have a go at Mr. Bickerstaff because he is on the side of the enemy, but in this instance you seem to have struggled to find something to huff and puff about.

Isaac Bickerstaff

Mickle-arse,
(This playing with names is such fun for puerile prats like you and me!)

If you think the Allied invasion of France comparable to the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan your version of history is idiosyncratic at best.

The attack on Iraq was a war of aggression. The attack on Afghanistan likewise (otherwise the UK would be justified in attacking Eire, Spain France, Spain Morocco, Nicaragua the US, the Lebanon the US, Iran the US, Cuba the US etc. etc.)

The notion that the IDF attacked not Lebanon and Gaza but vile brutes there resident is casuistry of the sort that does supporters of Israel no credit. (The water works, sewage works, the power supply, the transport system, infrastructure in general and the population that depends upon them are not "vile terrorists"; the millions of cluster bombs dropped as a ceasefire was imminent were not aimed at "vile terrorists", the doctrine applied by the IDF called for comprehensive damage to the Lebanon and Gaza, not just to vile terrorists - the list goes on).

If there are other "levels", be good enough to tell me what they are.

On a stylistic note, I would advise you to avoid locutions such as "deranged lefto-fascist-jihadist" and "lefty islamofascophiles ". They leave you open to ridicule and convey an impression of inarticulate, impotent, puce-faced rage, when I suspect you were aiming more for dignity and reasonableness, for a put-down at once firm but fair.

Guy De Boer

Colonel Richard Kemp is why we, on the American side of the pond, choose to believe that there will always be an England. We, and the world, are better for it that men such as this stand in the breech, stout-hearted and clear of vision. We salute you, sir!

Adam B.

I see Philo, thank you for explaining Bickerstaff's position, as he was unable to do so himself.

My question to him, which he was unable to answer, was if you think Britain's and Israel's tactics against terrorist entities are so utterly awful, what would you propose instead? What tactics should we be employing to protect ourselves? Perhaps you can answer that? Bickerstaff's position is that we shouldn't do anything. Do you think the same?

Adam B.

Just as I thought - Philo and Bickerstaff - it's easier to say what you're against than what you're for. Great at criticizing, not so great at coming up with a viable alternative...

Isaac Bickerstaff

Adam B.,
The question you asked me, with your usual sarcasm, was: “Isaac, as you are obviously a military expert, what tactics do you propose the Israeli and British army use in fighting genocidal and fanatical terrorists? You have a problem with the current tactics? What's a military alternative?”

To which the answer is that the military has no right to be in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Lebanon or Gaza, so military tactics are not to the point.

The question you now tell Philo you asked me is: “My question to him, which he was unable to answer, was if you think Britain's and Israel's tactics against terrorist entities are so utterly awful, what would you propose instead? What tactics should we be employing to protect ourselves?” “Bickerstaff's position is that we shouldn't do anything.”

You say both that I do not answer this question and also that my answer is to do nothing. I suspect you can tell that both cannot be true.

I suspect also that you can tell that the question you asked me and the one you reported to Philo are not the same. The question you reported to Philo is a better question. The answers are so well known that I am not sure whether to take your show of ignorance at face value.

On al qaeda, the experts on counter-terrorism say the best that can be done is good police work, not “war”.

On Afghanistan, the US and its allies should get out. It is not clear why they should take sides in a civil war that is ethnic more than Islamic.

On the Lebanon and Gaza, the answer is negotiation. I have seen you ignore the arguments for this so often that I am not going to rehearse them for you again.

Adam B.

Bickerstaff, the "experts" say police work is the answer? Which "experts"? And wasn't that the route we took pre-9/11, the one that completely failed?

As for Hamas and Hizbollah, you say the answer is negotiation.

Negotiation about what? Neither Hamas nor Hizbollah has shown any willingness to negotiate - and there is a reason for that. They are rejectionist Islamist movements. Hamas openly derides any notion of talks, or compromise, in its founding charter (in-between calling for the extermination of every living Jew on earth). They state that the ONLY way is Jihad. These movements are pure evil - they are racist, antisemitic, misogynistic, anti-democratic, anti-freedom, hateful towards homosexuals and the infidel. They rule their respective areas with an iron fist, employing torture and every tactic of the despot. They are modern day Nazis (ever seen their Nazi salutes?) Would you have advocated talking to Hitler?

And just as I thought... you have no answer to the military problem, other than to gripe about the best efforts of British and Israeli soldiers.

Isaac Bickerstaff

Adam B.
The long history of the police work before 9/11 and the way it was compromised by the games of the CIA etc and choked off by higher authority is in the public domain.

That Hamas and Hizballah are unwilling to negotiate is simply false.

The answer to the military problem, as you know I have said already, is to cease the illegal assaults and invasions.

Your response is, as I expected, devoid of serious comment or argument.

Adam B.

Isaac "simply false"? On what do you base this assertion? And is it ever moral to talk to racist antisemitic genocidal terrorists who oppress women, gays, Christians and Jews?

Tell me, are you a pacifist? Under what circumstances is military action ever justified? aND DON'T YOU THINK hAMAS AND hIZBOLLAH BEAR THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR FIRING THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS AND LAUNCHING SCORES OF SUICIDE BOMBINGS DELIBERATELY AIMED AT CIVILIANS? Are they blameless?

Devoid of argument? Yours is devoid of morality.

Adam B.

Furthermore, it was the view that terrorism is simply criminal activity, rather than a war aimed at destroying civilization, which directly led to 9/11, 7/7 etc.

Adam B.

Isaac, which "experts"? You haven't provided the all conclusive "proof" in which you so ardently believe.

Isaac Bickerstaff

Adam B.
" "simply false"? On what do you base this assertion?"

"which "experts"?"

The answer to each of these in the public domain. I think you should make the effort to do the research for yourself.

"...it was the view that terrorism is simply criminal activity, rather than a war aimed at destroying civilization, which directly led to 9/11, 7/7 etc."

What I said was that police work is the best we can do to thwart terrorists, that is, police work free from the shenanigans of spooks, crooks and politicians. Police work is never entirely free of these (and certainly wasn't in the handling of al qaeda by the CIA and FBI), so there will always be the risk of atrocities. However, I cannot see how financing the resurgence of warlords and drug barons and carpet bombing parts of Afghanistan, killing thousands of civilians and risking starvation of millions more, can be considered a more effective way to counter terrorism (as opposed to perpetrating it).

Am I a pacifist? No, military force can be justified as a last resort in self-defence.

Is Hamas blameless? Is Hizballah? No, I do not think they are, which is why I did not assert that they are.

Is it moral to negotiate with Hamas or Hizballah? I don't know, but it is practical, as Israel has acknowledged by negotiating with them. All it need do is negotiate in good faith, with the US as a genuine (honest) honest broker able to hold the parties to their agreements.

"You haven't provided the all conclusive "proof" in which you so ardently believe."

...?

Adam B.

Bickerstaff, "military force can be justified as a last resort in self-defence." Precisely. That is what Israel has done. Glad you agree.

How convenient your so-called "experts" are in the public domain - one can argue any conspiracy theory by claiming some "experts" in the public domain say so - so it must be true. But then it's all the fault of the CIA - yes, Al-Qaeda is a police matter, the Taliban's use of Afghanistan as a centre for terror training was obviously a police matter too. Send the bobbies in to sort it out.

La la land.

Adam B.

By the way, your silence about the conduct and nature of Hamas and Hizbollah is deafening - just as much as your knee-jerk simplistic obsessive fixated Israel bashing.

Shameful.

Isaac Bickerstaff

Adam B.,
If you regain your composure sufficiently to manage some reasonable remarks, I will certainly try to give them whatever attention they deserve.

Isaac Bickerstaff

Adam B.,
In fairness, I should spell out what I have said. Police work is the best tactic we have in trying to contain terrorism such as Al Qaeda has perpetrated. The last ten or twenty years have shown as much. However, I should not let the fact that resurrecting warlords and drug barons and bombarding Afghanistan wasn't the best choice of tactics in 2001 obscure the implication of what I have said, that military action is permissable in certain circumstances. In this instance, for example, if the Taliban and Pakistan had refused to make any effort to destroy Al Qaeda bases in their border country, there would have been the option for the international community to take military action. Nor do I claim that the assault by the US did not briefly and at the cost of the lives of thousands of innocent civilians create the opportunity to rescue Afghanistan from two decades of hell. I should also make clear, so that you can no longer use a misapprehension to fuel your righteous indignation, that I agree that radical Islamism has mutated into a significant threat to the West and a bane to Muslim countries around the world.

Pertus

GaryO must be writing of itself.