Mr Balls's secular Inquisition

Michael B

The "secular Inquisition" motif is supremely fitting, not in the least over-wrought.

Likewise, most university settings, in a wide range of departments, reflect a contemporary, secular form of Scholasticism. E.g., Peter Unger, in "All the Power in the World," refers to a "materialist Scholasticism" that pervades western philosophy departments.

Not all Scholasticism was or is inherently bad,it produces much that is valuable, nonetheless it reflects a dogmatically founded narrowing and a profoundly regretful state of affairs in university settings, in the larger society as well.

Nathan

The 'necessity' of contraception - moral necessity? I don't think that's in the bill. How to use it or how effective different forms are: these constitute factual knowledge, not norms of behaviour. If knowing how to do something can overcome moral tuition, it's not the knowing that's at fault.

Dixon

But dont you think it would be enormous fun to see the consternation among Islamist "educators" if they were forced to conform with these provisions?

Indeed, dont you think the only reason that other "faith" schools are likely to be exempted is that the politicians would never have it in them to attempt to force this on Muslim schools!

Roy

May I put this quote forward by Albert Einstein, November 20, 1950:
"The most important human endeavor is the striving for morality in our actions. Our inner balance and even our very existence depend on it. Only morality in our actions can give beauty and dignity to life. To make this a living force and bring it to clear consciousness is perhaps the foremost task of education. The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and actions."

just Louise

I'm afraid Liberal Judaism, which Jonathan Romain represents, is moving ever further away from any semblance of loyalty to Torah and to Klal Yisrael and into the realms of totalitarian political leftism. It seems to think that being a lefty - towards domestic and foreign policy (look at its jubilation over the court's JNF decision and its less than robust support for Israel) is the only legitimate stance for members of its congregations. Now Liberal Judaism intends to marry gays in shul, making a mockery of Torah and Jewish marriage.

Neil Turner

Dixon

Nice point, but no doubt that Islamists will be exempted.

This bill is aimed very much at the Church and our Christian heritage, whicj New Labour have worked so hard and so effectively to destroy

Peter from Maidstone

I have always thought that the persecution of the Church in this country would be perpetrated by grey men in grey suits doing things for the good of all - pretty much like in Stalin's Soviet Union. At some point, if this Government and intrusive way of doing politics is not swept away, we will have to start going to prison for our Faith.

Fergus Pickering

Nathan, what do you think about showing children, in science lessons, how to make bombs? I assume you are for it.

mark

I doubt very much that the Conservatives will overturn this. It’s a bit too late to complain about the “oppressive and illiberal” as well as “bullying”. The government has been running education by central diktat since late eighties. Labour’s policies have simply been the logical extension of what the Conservatives started, centralised control of education.

Another bill that was decried in similar terms was Section 28 introduced by the Conservatives. I suspect that those secularists who are hell bent on not allowing religious schools to teach sex-ed through their own philosophical viewpoint were (rightly) opposed to section 28. I also suspect that many who opposed section 28 are jumping up and down about the supposed authoritarianism of this bill. Hypocrisy crosses ideological boundaries.

I reckon the simple question to be asked is this? Can parents opt out of Sex-ed classes due to their deeply held religious convictions in the same way that sincere atheists are able to opt out of collective acts of worship?

If so fine. If not argue calmly and rationally for those rights

YA

"..amoral values prescribed by the state.."

Is "amoral" confused with "secular" here?

Isaac Bickerstaff

Would MICHAEL B. please make contact to explain the meaning of the following:

"William Blake, in the words of Owen Barfield, among others, was a genuinely great if too often confused commentator. The telling irony is, your own comment reflects the very type of late modern idolatry both Blake and Barfield were attempting to illuminate. There is additional and still telling irony in the fact that it was Marx and Engels who suggested - nearly a century before the rise of Hitler, Stalin and Mao, et al. - that multiplied millions of peoples, due to their backwardness, would need to be exterminated. (I.e. your own comment, obviously enough, reflects an all too typical Marxian post-colonial analysis and set of assumptions..."

If anyone else feels able to shed any light on this, their help would be welcome.

Thank you.

elixelx

I remember teaching at a "progressive" Junior High and I do mean "high"!) in Canada some 30 years ago, when a Metro Police Info. Officer, brought in to lecture the kids about the dangers of drugs, turned his back on his sample case, containing all the hallucinogens, exhilirants, intoxicants, for just the briefest of moments--and when he turned back, it was half-empty...
The school was locked down, lockers searched, kids patted down--Nada!
I wonder! Will the Govt. Sex-Ed programme have course (coarse!) materials--diaphragms, dildos, fisting instructions--in sample cases which the sex-facilitator (read "government-employed pervert") will actually encourage the kids to steal?!
The self-proclaimed omniscience and certainty of the government on such issues makes me want to repeat this joke told by George Will at the recent CPAC conference:
The teacher was walking around the classroom of 5-year-olds looking at what they were drawing, and stopped when she came to Susie:
"What are you drawing, Susie?"
"A picture of God, Teacher"
"But Susie, nobody knows what God looks like!"
"In 5 minutes they will, Teacher!"
This government has all the brazen neck, impudence, impertinence of that 5-year old!

Philo

Surely a liberal education should not simply inculcate doctrine, but encourage inquiry. Would it not be possible to teach young people about "secular values" while still bringing them up in their faith?

Indeed, would it not be possible more generally to teach children all the main religions and their histories, and some obsolete religions, and also the arguments for a secular way of life. Many of us have experience of the emotional power of the faith we were brought up in, which suggests that being brought up in a faith does not necessarily put us in the best position to judge of its merits.

Philo

"Fergus Pickering
February 24th, 2010 8:35am
Nathan, what do you think about showing children, in science lessons, how to make bombs? I assume you are for it."

Children could learn how to make bombs, therefore do not teach them about contraception.

Arguing by analogy doesn't always produce the best results...

Miv Tucker

I was in the same class at school with this Romain: I thought he was an idiot then, and nothing in his subsequent - dismaying - career has disabused me of my opinion.

As someone else more famously said, Will no-one rid us of this turbulent priest?

DougS

I couldn't state my opinion better than Philo already has.

I bow to his eloquence, brevity and common sense.

Alice

Melanie Phillips - it's so good to hear someone telling it like it is. More power to your elbow! As for the Catholic Education Service, they're a disgrace.

BTW, it's artificial contraception the Catholic Church opposes - not NFP (natural family planning).

Dixon

"DougS
February 24th, 2010 11:30am
I couldn't state my opinion better than Philo already has.

I bow to his eloquence, brevity and common sense."

You wouldn't say that if you read most of his other posts.

Sergey

It is high time to separate state and school. Nobody should dictate teachers, principals and parents the curriculum and methods of education. Education is a parents right and government obligation, not other way round.

JohnAnt

"the real divisions lie not so much between religions as within religions: between orthodox exponents of the faith who uphold fundamental moral laws and ‘liberals’ who repudiate them."
I think many other Catholics will agree that you've got that absolutely bang on the nail, Melanie.
ourselves.

blue_&_white_avenger

Just Louise:
I heard the whole programme.
I was dismayed / flabbergasted / livid that Romain was put up as a "religious person" & the voice of Judaism.
He is the antithesis of a religious Jew and represents virtually everything that the Torah describes as an abomination.
By his title (I dunno where he got it), he legitimises the desecration of all that Jews (I mean real, G-d fearing Jews) hold precious.

J.A.Evans

Re Romain, it's the BBC again stupid , they don't know the difference between Orthodox and Reform. Or do they?

Iftikhar

Muslim parents teach their children to respect their teachers. From a very young age, we are taught that Islam teaches us that after our parents, our teachers are most deserving of respect.
It must be an extremely confusing time for the Muslim parent in Leytonstone, London. For up to 30 parents may face prosecution for withdrawing their children from school, disobeying the teachers in the school, simply to secure a decent moral upbringing for their children. The school had decided to have a week of lessons about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender history. Part of this was a special adaptation of Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet retitled Romeo and Julian as well as fairytales and stories changed to show men falling in love with men. Rather than filling the heads of impressionable boys and girls with fatuous drivel about gay penguins, schools should be ashamed of the fact that they are sending children out into the world barely able to read, write and add up properly. Muslim children are leaving schools without learning their cultural roots and linguistic skills.

The action was being taken against the parents as part of a policy of ' promoting tolerance'. So why not tolerate parents, who, for sincerely-held reasons, consider their children too young to be taught about gay relationships? This isn't education, its cultural fascism. A record numbers of pupils persistently played truant in 2006-07, with around 272,950 pupils persistently absent in 2007, missing more than 20% of school. We rarely see councils prosecute the parents of these persistent truants. Yet, the parents who removed their children as a one-off to protect their morality may be prosecuted!

If the local council does decide to go through with a prosecution, it would be in line with the government's approach to the Muslim community. Muslims who believe homosexuality is a sin would be labelled as extremists. Liberal totalitarianism is a growing phenomenon in Britain and the west in general but many people will be shocked that the school can override a parent's view of what's appropriate or inappropriate to teach their children.

This latest episode should be a wakeup call for Muslim parents. Muslim parents MUST explain our moral standards to schools and be prepared to take steps to protect our children’s morals and values from a growing agenda to impose liberal values upon them. This is an eye opening for those Muslim parents who keep on sending their children to state schools to be mis-educated and de-educated by non-Muslim monolingual teachers.

The solution of all the problems facing Muslim children is state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers. Those state schools where Muslim children are in majority may be designated as Muslim community schools. Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods.
Iftikhar Ahmad

Adam B.

Philo, you speak of secular "values."

Could you tell me what these are?

Reb Shlomo Silverstein

Reform and Liberal Judaism in a sense is far worse than secularism. At least a secular Jew is honest with himself and knows that he is not a practicing Jew, either because he was not brought up with any Jewish education and experience or has for whatever reason rejected Jewish practice. If he wishes to observe anything then it is according to Orthodox practice.

The Reform and Liberal movements however define Judaism according to their own whim at any given time and place. This ever changing definition to suit lifestyle and current morality is in essence self worship!

Reform and Liberal Judaism accepts any definition for "observance" that you care to define for yourself. They call themselves the "all inclusive" Judaism. For instance, if you don't believe in G-d, or do but don't believe that we received the Torah from G-d at Mount Sinai but you enjoy singing and lead the services every week in synagogue then you would be considered an observant religious Jew. (This example actually describes a good percentage of the so called "rabbis", the leaders of the reform congregations).

However, if you decide that to take the Torah plus 3,000 years of established Jewish law seriously and insist that Kashrus is not a life-style choice but a commandment from G-d then you will no longer be welcome in the reform synagogue. How inclusive is this? You are allowed to display signs of Jewishness, even observe some traditions when it suits you but "oih vevoiw" you cross the line of acceptability when you insist that Mitzvos are not just "good deeds" or suggestions but actually mandatory commandments from an eternal Divine being!

Philo

Adam B.
We need only consider here the proposition that our values are not decreed by "God".

Adam B.

Philo, what do you mean by "our" values? In a secular society, everyone chooses their own values - often at odds with others. There are no "secular" values.

Philo

...the proposition that our values (whatever they happen to be and whoever we happen to be and whether everyone shares them or not) are not decreed by "God"...

another one might be that those who believe that their values are decreed by "God" will not be persecuted for this belief and cannot persecute others because of this belief...

...or that everyone gets to choose their own values...

I'm sure you can think of a few more.

It might help (then again it might not) to think that there may be first order values and second order values.

Michael B

In terms of "persecution" and "decreed" values, Philo, it could be emphasized that the total number of deaths that occurred during the entirety of the Spanish Inquisition was almost certainly less than 5,000 - over roughly a 300 year period. By contrast, Leninist/Stalinist and Maoist "secular" regimes managed to murder something in the area of one hundred million to one hundred twenty million, often en masse, within a much more brief span of 70 years.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Mishnah+Gemara=Talmud

Philo

Adam B.
I'm over-complicating(again). I refer you to the OED:

"Secularism. The doctrine that morality should be based solely on regard to the well-being of mankind in the present life to the exclusion of all considerations drawn from belief in God or in a future state."

Perhaps we were confusing "secular" with "liberal" or some such.

Philo

Michael B.
Er...

By the way, while you're here, why is it you choose not to make clear to Mr. Bickerstuffe what it is you meant? From what he's quoted I'm not clear myself.

blue_&_white_avenger

Iftikhar Ahmad: I'm sympathetic to what you say in general but "The solution of all the problems facing Muslim children is state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers. Those state schools where Muslim children are in majority may be designated as Muslim community schools".
Are you sure about this? I understood that the government demands that this stuff is taught in any state school but that you may be allowed to put your own gloss on it.

Mrs S Wilson

I hope Melanie Phillips is right in saying that the Tories will block this iniquitous bill before it is allowed to become law. And I hope David Cameron will realize in time that there is not only a vociferous gay vote but also a quiet religious vote, which some commentators are now saying could make all the difference when the election comes. Think hard, Mr Cameron, before going further down this illiberal route where anything goes except Biblical standards and orthodox Christian values.