Fitna

field

The film is quite clever in actually not doing any of the things it was alleged to do. All Muslims can complain about is that it is unrepresentative or a caricature perhaps. But essentially it involves Koranic texts, preaching based on those texts and news footage of the acts of violence that are inspired by the preaching. Nothing can be criticised as inaccurate or fictitious or hateful in itself.

I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect Muslims to REMOVE parts of the Koran. But there is plenty of scope for reinterpretation, defanging as someone once called it. Most Jews and Christians ignore or reinterpet the most offensive passages in the Old and New Testaments "Hell is a state of mind, not a real place you know"...that sort of thing. Muslims can do the same, but they face problems peculiar to their religion which was essentially the product of one man, and that man was one with strong appetites for capturing women, land and treasure - not the most edifying of religious sentiments. However, if Muslims can break the power of the clerics it is possible. But it will take a long time and in the meantime we need to hold the line on freedom and democracy. So we all need to support Wilders in his somewhat provocative but nevertheless reasoned critique. Well done to Melanie for putting a link in.

joe

Interesting the number of people rushing to condem this reaoned and restrained film (the UN, Australia etc.) If only they would as strongly condem the evil worked in the name of Islam in Sudan, occupied Judea/Samaria, etc. against Christians and other faiths in the muslim world ......

Norm

When will other politicians have the guts to come out and support Mr Wilders.

London Calling

Is this really the Wests answer to Islamic extremism, silly cartoons and amateur films with violin's playing in the background by a Dutch MP, who doesn't even speak at all throughout the film?. Are we really applauding 'Fitna' as a democratic stand for freedom of speech, or our we in truth impotent because its all we have left to express our democratic selves?. 'Fitna' will bring attention to the ideology of the extremists interpretations of the Koran through its teachings, but I would have preferred its delivery less Jihad and more informative, hopefully this will lead to a future debate in which to discuss, also with British Muslim clerics to explain their interpretation of the Koranic text that feeds these extremist views.

Tas Walker

The film was very good. It simply showed 1. The idea, 2. the proclamation of the idea, 3. the consequences of the idea.

For some reason the western media, which makes its living out of marketing ideas, does not want to acknowledge that ideas have consequences.

Shy Guy

Field: "I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect Muslims to REMOVE parts of the Koran. But there is plenty of scope for reinterpretation, defanging as someone once called it. Most Jews and Christians ignore or reinterpet the most offensive passages in the Old and New Testaments."

As a Torah observant Jew, I disagree with you 100%. We do not ignore or reinterpret one iota of what the Torah says.

The same is true for Quranic observant Muslims.

You wish to discuss reform Jews and Muslims? That's a horse of a different color. The moment you do not accept the origins and scriptures of your belief as divine and accurate, your religion is putty in your hands. Sometimes it seems there are aetheists who are more religious minded than reform Jews I know.

But these reform cases wind up being something else, no longer Judaism or Islam.

So the best you can do, according to you, is to convince observant Muslims to become heretics and hope that it sticks for generations to come. Good luck with that.

And you can talk about majorities and minorities all you want but what is the percentage of the minority of the over-a-billion Muslims worldwide who promote, advocate or tolerate observant Islam? Not a happy picture.

The situation is one of do or die and we are not doing anything to defend ourselves.

Jonathan

Dear Shy Guy,

When was the last time that a Jewish religious court passed a death sentence for any of the dozens of capital crimes defined by the Torah - let alone executed it?

Shy Guy

Jonathan
March 31st, 2008 8:46am

Dear Shy Guy,

When was the last time that a Jewish religious court passed a death sentence for any of the dozens of capital crimes defined by the Torah - let alone executed it?

But even before the disbanding of capital courts, the odds were very high that someone would ever get to the point of being found guilty. The Torah's laws for witnesses, warnings to the lawbreaker prior to commiting a capital sin, etc., were so detailed that it was rare for a Bet Din to ever pass a guilty verdict. The attempt to be lenient is also based on the Torah itself, Deuteronomy 13:15.

As the Mishnah in Talmudic Tractate Makkot 7a states:

"A Bet Din that puts a sinner to death as often as once every seven years is considered a murderous Bet Din. According to Rebbi Elazar ben Azaryah, this applies to a Bet Din that puts a sinner to death as often as once in seventy years."

Primitive savages we ancient Jews were, ay?

john doe

And where's Ban Ki Moon's condemnation of the death threats received by Wilders and also Live Leak for hosting the film?

Ravi

Shy Guy, you are entitled to your fundementalist adherence to the Torah but it is also true of many Orthodox Jews that they won't recognise Reform or Liberal Judaism as having any validity. To MOST Jews around the World the laws of the land in which they live are more important than living their lives according to The Torah and Talmud. Religious rituals and prayer in Judaism have an endearing binding to Jewish heritage and roots but most Jews (I suspect) would be just as happy to acknowledge their roots while maintaining a 21st century aspect to their lives. However, I praise Orthodoxy for maintaing the threads. At least Jews can be bound together by their race if not agreement on all aspects of Judaism.

phil

Shy guy -firstly I must say I respect your own religious beliefs but I must also make the point that I believe it is wrong for you to say that people who use their own reasoning powers to guide them in an ever changing world are not real Jews /Christians or Muslims .The almighty gave us a brain and a soul for both thought and compassion ,so to follow man written rules when ones brain or soul says it is wrong surely cannot be right .Am I wrong in thinking the almighty has given us choices ?our old testament can make some pretty warlike statements but as you say we do not follow them .lights and cookers go on timers, even lifts ,kashrut evolves (I don't think baked beans were available on mount Sinai)are we not bending Torah rules ?(I do not object to this )I have not always seen eye to eye with Fields views but I must say he seems to be making a very reasonable point here ,my belief is that all of us should be adjusting our way of life to accommodate all religions and in particular to get those that think their religion is the only way to avoid hell to moderate their views .In closing I want my religion to evolve ,and not to be just ignored where it suits ones purpose -mine is every day to be kind and considerate to all,to be thankful for our blessings -that is what worship of the almighty means to me

Ujima

London Calling, are you trying to get into the Guinness Book of World Records for biggest number of non-sequiturs on a blog?

RE

Fitna is merely a compilation of Muslims own actions and the Koranic verses Muslims use to justify them, and yet the EU politicians attempt to make Mr. Wilders the villain?

One could not ask for a better illustration of the depths of moral bankruptcy to which the political class has fallen.

Mr. Wilders is to be commended for a fine and courageous effort. Hopefully his example will embarrass others out of their pathetic cowardice.

Shy Guy

phil
March 31st, 2008 12:26pm

Shy guy -firstly I must say I respect your own religious beliefs but I must also make the point that I believe it is wrong for you to say that people who use their own reasoning powers to guide them in an ever changing world are not real Jews /Christians or Muslims.

Now a person can claim adherence or membership to something while flaunting the rules and not accepting the preconditions. When it comes to countries and clubs, you usually won't get away with it because someone will likely employ the law or the rules and throw the phony out. With religion, usually no one's stopping you, especially when referring to religious freedoms in western democratic societies.

So, just because someone has the liberty to call themselves a member or an adherent of this or that religion, it doesn't mean it's true.

The almighty gave us a brain and a soul for both thought and compassion ,so to follow man written rules when ones brain or soul says it is wrong surely cannot be right.

Am I wrong in thinking the almighty has given us choices ?

our old testament

can make some pretty warlike statements but as you say we do not follow them.

In the example I gave, the Sages were within their Torah legal right to supress employment of capital punishment. For those that know what I'm talking about, that would be what the Talmud lists as "Yesh Koach B'Yad Hachachamim La'Akor Davar She'Ba'Torah b'Shev Ve'Ahl Ta'asseh." These are rules handed down to Moses from Sinai, not ideas that came out of the suggestion box located near the Great Sanhedrin exit door.

lights and cookers go on timers, even lifts ,kashrut evolves (I don't think baked beans were available on mount Sinai)are we not bending Torah rules ?

Wahida

No one has pointed out that Geert Wilders has NO support in his country. His peers and countrymen have been flocking to disown him and his views and in a televised reaction, Prime Minister, Jan Peter said: “We … regret that Mr. Wilders has released this film. We believe it serves no other purpose than to cause offense.”

The Danish Union of Journalists is also suing Wilders for copyright infringement for using the cartoon. It said the cartoonist, Kurt Westergaard, did not give Wilders permission to use the image in his film, which it called “political propaganda.”

And no TV company in the world is willing to show his film. Why, becuase its inacurate, offensive and oh he doesn't have the relevant copy rights!

phil

Shy guy thanks for the trouble you have taken -we wont agree with our roots or our routes but i think we will still both try to live decent lives in our own way -so I suppose that will have to do -maybe we can have a shnapps at the pearly gates whether arriving by first class or economy and with a record of not terrorising anyone

Chris

I just watched this film, and now I feel a bit sick. All the film maker does is quote from the book, intersperse that with TV news footage and various nutter imams going off. It's a bit much to criticise the film maker when there are those preaching hatred and wholesale slaughter, as we know anyway from reading the papers. It's a serious film with huge implications.

Shy Guy

phil
March 31st, 2008 1:51pm

Shy guy thanks for the trouble you have taken -we wont agree with our roots or our routes but i think we will still both try to live decent lives in our own way -so I suppose that will have to do -maybe we can have a shnapps at the pearly gates whether arriving by first class or economy and with a record of not terrorising anyone

Wahida
March 31st, 2008 1:43pm

Let me see.......

What was the name of that cigar chomping British bloke who most everyone scoffed at and virtually ignored until Hitler began overrunning Europe?

And the funny thing is this film is 99% verbatim quotes of Islamic scriptures and clergymen.

Shy Guy

If anyone hasn't heard yet, LiveLeak has restored access to the movie.

Ujima

"Geert Wilders has NO support in his country..."

"And no TV company in the world is willing to show his film. Why, becuase its inacurate, offensive"

Er, no, Wahida, he has very little open support in Holland because people know that if they endorse him they could end up living under police protection like Wilders or - even worse - dead like their fellow countryman Theo Van Gough.

Funny, how many followers of this peaceful religion are so violent.

The same goes for broadcasters who won't show the film because they don't want their staff to be attacked.

As for Fitna being "inaccurate" and "offensive", what rubbish. All he's done is show the world what The Koran and a host of Islamist leaders have been saying.

Verity

Good call, Ujima! Although I was going to give the award to Phil.

Wahida,please try to back up your wild, over-heated statements. I don't know which Dutch blogs you read, but Geert Wilders has a tremendous amount of support in Holland. Yes, the broadcast media fear for the lives of their employees if they show the film. This in itself is an overwhelming condemnation of some powerful elements in Islam and reflects how we, in the advanced, enlightened West regard the Islamic inability to act rationally instead of with raging, infantile emotion.

The prime minister of Holland, with all his protection, seems to be a bit of a coward. The prime minister of Denmark does not so react. It was he who refused to grant the raging imams an audience over the cartoons, saying, "The Danish prime minister has no control over the Danish press." He didn't even give them face by granting them a five minute meeting. Zilch. Nada. It's not within my control so no point in taking up my time.

If Mr Wilders failed to get copyright clearance for using the opening cartoon, the Danes have every right to sue Mr Wilders. That is why we have a body of civil, as opposed to bonkers religious, law in the West.

Sharon

Well said Melanie, only we are not laughing at such comedy!

phil

Wahida can you see that your rudeness by not acknowledging my kinder remarks has brought about another award to me from the ridiculous verity-first prize is one award second prize is two so get my drift - you argue with the wrong ones as you will never win with the likes of her-probably not with me either but I will listen -she wouldnt know a falafel from a kibbie and woulnt want to either -now get your act together and address your remarks to those that might actually care .and be polite to those that are polite to you

Verity

Phil - First prize for the best grovelling. Gosh, you're just sweeping the awards!

I quite like falafel, actually, but not as much as babaganouj. Humus and pita is my favourite ME food. Can't stand the mint tea, though. Still, most ME countries sell beer.

Nick Kaplan

Wahida; all that can be said in response to that is ‘Shame on all of them!’ If these spineless fools can’t stand up for a value that is as fundamental as free speech, we really have reached a new low, and those Islamists who seek to destroy us have won yet another symbolic victory.

Max Kaye

I've paid my TV Licence (tax) for 25 years. Surely it's time they broadcast a programme I'd like to see ?

Augustus

"...a war of religion with striking similarities to Nazi ideology..." So again the lesson must be learnt, that freedom fundamentally comes with a price. It takes the blood of patriots to water the tree of liberty.

Augustus

Oh, and good opposition tactics by Wilders.

Mohamed Qadir

Hi melanie. just read ur article fitna and u r right there is some comedy in it but how come there r no such programmes in the u.k where the problem of terrorism is more urgent than,say,holland? Anywayz thanx 4 speakin the truth. I am Muslim and i look to u for some reality check and no-nonsense journalism. You never patronise us like the liberals who talk to us like we r kids.keep going sis! URs Mohamed in pompey