No wonder he's smiling...

Noa Zrk

Succintly put Melanie.

And Biden represents Obama, the pillar of the Western Left.

We should all be extremely very concerned at the weakness being displayed by the US in the face of the pressure being applied by Islamic terrorism.

The photo is no doubt chosen for its symbolism. The old terrorist Arafat looking over Bidens shoulder.

ahad ha'amoratsim

Apparently VP Biden subscribe to the popular notion that it is morally wrong for Jews to buy land and build homes where people don't want them to. This notion implies that it is wrong for Jews to live where people don't want them, which in turn implies that it is wrong for Jews to live.

Baron

Melanie, calm down please. I reckon Biden talked tough for public consumption. If he didn’t the Palestinians would accuse the US of siding with Israel. End of any chance of sorting the mess.

John Edwards

There is no doubt about the the legal status of East Jerusalem. Putting the "e" in lower case fools nobody.Facts are stubborn things.

East Jerusalem is part of the Occupied Palestinian Territories as has been confirmed by many Security Council resolutions and most recently unanimously by the International Court of Justice in its opinion on the Separation Wall.

The refusal by the Israelis to halt expansion of the illegal settlements while negotiations take place is a barrier to peace.

The two state settlement based on the internationally recognised borders of Israel has been accepted by everyone else.

Yehuda

The 1922 League of Nations' Mandate legal decision acknowledged (in international law) the Jewish People's right to that part of the Land of Israel between the Mediterranean and the eastern desert (at the very minimum, up to the Jordan River), and awarded it to the Jews.

Power politics, appeasement, obfuscation, ignorance, ill-will, Jewish lack of the power to resist Arab ingestion of a large part of the Land, have conspired to leave Israel with 20% only of the original Mandate territory.
Biden and his administration, like most previous US administrations, is disingenuous,lacks moral fibre or integrity when it comes to Israel and the Jewish People.

(It's fascinating that even the 1947 UN Gen Ass partition recommendation recommended that Jerusalem NOT be part of an Arab state.)

Carl

As I wrote earlier, this is proof that Israel is not interested in a peaceful solution. It's time for the USA to cut aid to Israel.

Bill Badger

The so called Palestinians are the current darlings of the UK Press.
They now provide all the Heartbreaking pictures and newsprint so beloved of Western "So Called Journalists.

But!!!! It's all in a name. We have been "Had" by a name.

A group of Arabs continued to use the name Palestinians long
after the Palestine Mandate had been divided into a Palestinian
Arab Country (Jordan 40000 sq miles), and Palestinian Jewish
Country, (Israel 8000 sq miles).

All the difficulties of the Middle East situation arise out of
the mistaken absurd belief that there is a 3rd group of people.

Nimble

Right on !

Annie Loyedeer

John Edwards. Sanctimonious drivel! All Jerusalem is historically the city of the children of Abraham - 1000s lived their until thrown out by the Jordanians in the 1950s. The two state solution has been certainly not been accepted by everyone else - it hasn't even been accepted by the Palestinians nor most of the rest of the Arab world. In reality the west bank should be returned - the non-Jewish parts - to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt, there is no such thing nor ever has been an historic ethnically distinct palestinian arab state. Biden is weak , like Obama and his visit is at best unhelpful and at worst gives succour to the enemies of the free world. may G-d forgive you, Mr Edwards

Old Slaughter

Please justify increased settlements if one is serious about a two state solution?

I agree with you on every other issue Melanie

YA

I agree with Baron. What was said is political doublespeak

"..Palestinians deserve a viable independent state with contiguous territory.."

I other words, a state not dependent on international aid, not controlled by sponsors of terrorism, and willing/capable to live in peace with Israel.

"Contiguous territory" is clearly a secondary question. Peaceful Palestine bordering Mongolia. Who cares.

Ronnie

Blah, blah, blah.

Neither side is currently interested in a negotiated settlement. At least Israel seems to be being entirely clear about this.

On that basis, move on.

Barry

Re John Edwards

Why should Jews not live in the new Palestinian state as a minority in Jerusalem amd the West bank. Why should Jews be ethnically cleased as in Gaza? Yehuda is right in principle. Resolution 242 says nothing against the Mandate if understood this way. No boubt Biden and John Edwards believe in Western Enlightenment principles , but the PLO and Hamas-definitiely not Hamas - do not. Why are they not held to the same principles as Israel.Double standards as ever for Israel and the Jewish people.

thirdbasecoach

The fact that Joe Biden is speaking makes the whole episode require a large tent, trained animals and a high wire act to accompany Biden's clown act.

Worried

I think the moral standings of an individual can be (in part) judged on their opinion of Israel & Jews. One can also spot if they form their opinions based on popularism or verifiable facts. The administrations in both the US and UK are popularist, so go figure!

Michael B

"What have they done to deserve it? In what other conflict in the history of the planet have people who have waged a war of annihilation for eight decades and continue to do so been considered to ‘deserve’ anything, let alone an ‘independent’ existence the sole purpose of which is a military beach-head to finish the job and which would slice its victim in half?"

We live in an era, hopefully a foreshortened era, where memes are deemed suitable substitutes for probity and more probative thought. And Joe Biden could easily be the poster-boy of that era.

Barbara

I totally agree, Israel have long fought a battle for survival, the offered to share the country from the beginning, but let's face it, do they really want peace in the Middle East? I don't think so for what would they have to do. No, they don't deserve to have a state to breed more terrorists, they don't know how to live in peace they only know destruction. Good journalism has usual.

Douglas Bass

To paraphrase the song by Sheryl Crow "If it makes Joe Biden unhappy, it can't be that bad."

And how is this all that different from the last 13 months? Israel has been in America's doghouse ever since President Obama took office. The difference is that Israel has shown that America is in its doghouse. Will America notice? Let's hope so.

Paul

Carl: "... this is proof that Israel is not interested in a peaceful solution ..."

And the Arabs are?

hippiepooter

Does anyone think Joe Biden looks like Stewart Granger?

Simon

Wrong again, Ronnie: “Neither side is currently interested in a negotiated settlement. At least Israel seems to be being entirely clear about this.”

You clearly think an Israeli politician has made a statement as clearly aggressive as this one. Please furnish us with it (you have John Edwards and Carl to help you):

"Allah has chosen you for Himself and for His religion, so that you will serve as the engine pulling this nation to the phase of succession, security, and consolidation of power, and even to conquests thorough da'wa and military conquests of the capitals of the entire world.

"Very soon, Allah willing, Rome will be conquered, just like Constantinople was, as was prophesised by our Prophet Muhammad. Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam – this capital of theirs will be an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, and even Eastern Europe.

"I believe that our children or our grandchildren will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them. Today, we instil these good tidings in their souls, and by means of the mosques and The Koran books, and the history of our prophets, his companions, and the great leaders, we prepare them for the mission of saving humanity from the hellfire on the brink of which they stand."

Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astral, Al-Aqsa TV on April 11, 2008

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x_qbKrOF64w

Augustus

The American State Department, and even successive Israeli governments, have convinced themselves, and the general public over the years that once the Arabs sign an agreement, whether it is called a 'peace treaty' or any other accord, they are going to be bound to honour it. But time and again the Arabs have proved that they will only keeps the parts of an agreement that suits them. As we all know from history a piece of paper, when signed by certain people, doesn't mean peace. Cheating and deception are, and always have been, intrinsic components of Arab diplomacy, and are cemented in every agreement they sign, even among themselves. How many generations of efforts to achieve peace through negotiations must come and go before the penny drops that peace through negotiations have only led to more violence and instability. In the past one may have been forgiven for believing that the Muslim laws of jihad were theoretical and inapplicable to our time. But the Islamic terrorist activity of the last few years has proved
that it is very real, and now forms the basis beween the Muslim world and Israel and the West.

Adam B.

John Edwards, you have obviously never been anywhere near Jerusalem. Could you tell me where "East" Jerusalem meets "West" Jerusalem - or do you mean the Old City and the New City (built in the 1800's)? If so, perhaps you could enlighten me when the Jewish and Armenian Quarters of the Old City became exclusively Arab?

One other utterly absurd claim by you, that "everyone" accepts a two state solution and internationally recognised borders - when has Iran, Hamas and Hizbollah ever accepted any borders of Israel, or the concept of a two state settlement?

I'd really like to know.

C. Gee

Melanie Phillips:

Alex Massie has responded to this post on his blog. It would be interesting to see your reply.

Herb Keinon, Jerusalem Post, "Shifting Palestinian Red Lines," believes that pressure by the US and Arab nations has prevailed upon Abbas to forgo his condition of no-settlement building before resumption of negotiations. He thinks that this is a diplomatic novelty - the Palestinians having to shift a red line.

Pace Keinon, the diplomatic dance with a view to negotiating a Palestinian state is an utter waste of time.

Massie asks what is to be done if the Palestinians do not deserve a state.

What should be done?

Julie

Over one million Arabs living in Israel are considered by no one to be an obstacle to peace, but even one Jew living in the West Bank is considered an act of aggression.
Arab towns in Israel are not referred to as settlements, while Jewish towns in the West Bank are referred to as such.
I suggest a letter-writing campaign directed at educating Biden on the many points he seems to have missed.

Dixon

The presumptions of the Pale-love-in brigade dont look too sweet when you transpose them to another location: if the natives of West Yorkshire take a dislike to having half a million Muslims in their midst does that entitle them to fire off missiles at their neighbourhoods?

By the logic of "Free Palestine" London is right now under occupation and the BNP are I guess a legitimate analog of Hamas.

Julie

Bill Badger: How about if we refer to Israelis as "Palestinian Jews?"

Rob-NY

Biden is a fool and why is the Veep doing the work of Sec. of State Clinton?
Expect Hillary to resign from State and challenge Obama in 2012 after Iran gets nukes.

Archie

Spot on, as usual Miss Phillips; and yes indeed, Bill Badger! They and the nincompoop currently occupying The White House!

cyllan

john edwards and carl.

a couple of days ago there was a report of 500 Christians dead in nigeria by muslism, not radicals justs muslims, , you didnt bother to mention a word about it.

israel an a few houses come out and you are all vile is all israel fault.... blah blah blah

i feel sick

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Carl
"March 10th, 2010 7:31pm
As I wrote earlier, this is proof that Israel is not interested in a peaceful solution. It's time for the USA to cut aid to Israel."

By way of comparison, would be interesting to hear your take on the history of the Palestinian Arab interest in a "Peaceful solution".

Of course, you will never go down that road, for fear of revealing that your assertion - which has become a common form of further incitement in the anti Zionist digest of tosh - has always been designed to obscure the fact that peace is simply defined by the Arabs as that which will be achieved once Israel is destroyed.

Naturally, therefore, this assertion of yours - apparently a wish Peace - is, in fact, nothing but a wish for War.

Zionist or not, you WILL get your wish which you will continue to blam the Israeli's for realising.

In the meantime, those you apparently are concerned for will continue to suffer and die.

Time the common people of Palestine rose up against their "leaders", as they are doing in Iran. The Arab world needs revolution more than ever.

Mladen Andrijasevic

This has become surreal. The nuclear threat from Iran is becoming more imminent by the day and what is VP Biden spending his time on? Denouncing the building of new homes in Jerusalem and insulting Israelâ™s PM by showing up an hour and a half late for dinner. Is all this really more important than the possibility of a nuclear war between Iran and Israel? Historians of the future will have a problem understanding this period in history. They will probably ask why wasnâ™t anyone devoting any attention to the Westâ™s foremost scholar on Islam, Bernard Lewis, who said the following about Iran: "In this context, mutual assured destruction, the deterrent that worked so well during the Cold War, would have no meaning. At the end of time, there will be general destruction anyway. What will matter will be the final destination of the dead--hell for the infidels, and heaven for the believers. For people with this mindset, MAD is not a constraint; it is an inducement." http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008768

steve

"there is no such thing nor ever has been an historic ethnically distinct palestinian arab state"-- that argument would apply to a number of other countries before they gained independence, including the United States and Canada.

David Whitford

Melanie, I know the stakes are high & that you are no great fan of Obama but are you really comparing current US policy to the Nazis: 'And why, once again, is a final solution being imposed by America upon democratic and beseiged Israel...' ?

digbydolben

Douglas Bass, we Americans who are NOT Jewish have, indeed, finally "noticed," and what we want is to be DONE with both peoples. We want to cut off aid to BOTH Arabs and Israelis and we don't want to be dragged back into this conflict.

Merlyn

I tried to put the Israeli view across on the Times article today about it, several times in different ways.
No dice.
I hope others of you are making efforts.

john Norman

Typically deliberate and widespread confusion spread by the MSM: The Times today speaks about the Palestinians insisting on Jerusalem as their capital (not East Jerusalem) and the PLA threatens the Israelis for building in "east" Jerusalem. The PLA continues to show the world a map of Palestine as if Israel did not exist and wishes Israel out of existence. Biden and company show that they are political illiterates.

Ronnie

Thank you Simon.

You can't begin to imagine how pointless I found your post in response to mine.

I was making a statement, without judgement, of what I regard as quite obvious fact, based on the actions of the two main parties in this endless dispute.

I have no interest in engaging you or anyone else in a sterile discussion of the oft-cited boastful drivel eminating from extremist jihadis and their spear carriers.

Roy

The present US administration are pathetic in the way they try to find excuses to withdraw their support for Israel. Displaying a minimum of friendliness they stomp into the country displaying stark ignorance on both the broader picture and the finer details of the problems. What depths they seem to go to in order to placate the Arab territories in the vicinity are despicable. America would do well to learn from the Israelis. Instead of confronting this front line of democracy, they should confront the ones who refuse any peaceable options. Israel is the Singapore of the Middle East, (small, clever, and versatile). With a little co-operation the neighbours here could thrive on the know-how, the high tech ability of Israel’s industrial centre to get involved with them and grow with them. But no, they would sooner send rockets and bomb laden individuals, whilst spreading a world wide sand storm of misinformation.

YA

When will we see construction announcements from other occupied territories, e.g.

Cyprus by Turkey
Kuril Islands by Russia
South Ossetia, Abhazia by Russia
West Sahara by Marocco
Tibet by China
Alsace by France
Eastern Prussia by Poland
and so on.

And BTW Joe Biden didn't announce construction of his own house on the lands illegally occupied by Anglo-Saxon settlers.

Even not talking about 400 years old injustice of Northern Ireland, and continuing colonialism in Gibraltar.

And certainly illegal, immoral and brutal occupation of Falklands. Give it back to pingwins, they are indigenous folks there. They have rights, dignity and oil wealth. Argentina will fight for justice.

Adam

Why? What have they done to deserve it? In what other conflict in the history of the planet have people who have waged a war of annihilation for eight decades and continue to do so been considered to ‘deserve’ anything, let alone an ‘independent’ existence the sole purpose of which is a military beach-head to finish the job and which would slice its victim in half?

Israel???

Rachael

Says Ronnie to Simon: “You can't begin to imagine how pointless I found your post in response to mine.”

Yes, but you would say that Ronnie, because it puts egg all over your face (again). No one cares what your personal response is so there’s no point in blubbing about how ‘pointless’ you find it. We just want you to substantiate what you said with some facts - not what you 'personally' feel.

“I was making a statement, without judgement, of what I regard as quite obvious fact, based on the actions of the two main parties in this endless dispute.”

That’s not a fact, Ronnie. You haven’t got a fact to stand on and so give us your unfairly biased opinion. Never mind “of what you regard”, we just want some objective fact.

“I have no interest in engaging you or anyone else in a sterile discussion of the oft-cited boastful drivel eminating from extremist jihadis and their spear carriers.”

You have no interest in dealing with facts that expose your spiteful, prejudiced views for what they are, Ronnie.

Yunis Al-Astral is a Hamas Member of Parliament. If an Israeli Member of Parliament ever said such a thing, you would be all over this chatboard and elsewhere to tell us about it – but because this Hamas MP exposes your prejudiced views for what they are, you expect us all to ignore them.

Dixon

Ya, too much the irony (again)....some will take you literally.
Why not just point out that as you rightly illustrate, there are loads of analogous territorial disputes but only Israel gets demonized out of all the paryies involved, in all the disputes, in all the world, in all of recorded history.

Oh, you missed out Mexicos "right" to fire missiles at the USA until they return Texas to them. Or the rest of California.

Rob-NY

The US has no business as a "honest broker" in this conflict. The Palestinians have supported every enemy the US has ever had; from Hitler to Hussein and every one in between. They were celebrating in the West Bank as the towers fell. Israel has been a steadfast ally for decades and is in the same position that Britian was in 1940. That is standing alone against fascism.
The Palestinians hate us and we should act accordingly.

Adam B.

John Edwards, you have obviously never been anywhere near Jerusalem. Could you tell me where "East" Jerusalem meets "West" Jerusalem - or do you mean the Old City and the New City (built in the 1800's)? If so, perhaps you could enlighten me when the Jewish and Armenian Quarters of the Old City became exclusively Arab?

One other utterly absurd claim by you, that "everyone" accepts a two state solution and internationally recognised borders - when has Iran, Hamas and Hizbollah ever accepted any borders of Israel, or the concept of a two state settlement?

I'd really like to know.

Ronnie

Rachael.

'Yunis Al-Astral is a Hamas Member of Parliament. If an Israeli Member of Parliament ever said such a thing, you would be all over this chatboard and elsewhere to tell us about it – but because this Hamas MP exposes your prejudiced views for what they are, you expect us all to ignore them.'

Do you regard that as a fact? I'd be delighted to review your evidence. Or are you expressing an opinion on what I would and would not do? To be frank, I have no idea what you are talking about but the more people who describe all these silly slogans for what they are the happier I am. Rule 1, never take your enemy's propaganda seriously.

Let me clarify, although I didn't expect it to be necessary. The Obama administration is trying to get off first base in a new round of peace talks because it's a challenge, a trophy, something they promised in the presidential campaign.

I do not think that either party in this dispute are ready to restart talks. Abbas will soon not be speaking on behalf of the Arabs as he will step down and their political organisations must already be jockeying for position again. I regard that as an unstable situation.

I'm not sure that the Israeli government can see why it should bother with negotiations at the moment and I tend to agree with them. Everyone knows that the act of building houses on what, to some, is disputed territory objectively renders negotiation impossible for the moment.

So, there we are. I have made no attempt to blame anyone and I have no intention of doing so. I merely suggest that more rehashing of this is a waste of time but don't let me stop you.

I am interested in how desperate you and Simon are to be offended. I can almost hear the ringing in your ears. You do realise that many people have opinions...?

Augustus

"The Palestinians deserve a
'viable' independent state with contiguous territory".

Indeed: Why? So they can live in peace and harmony with their neighbours, the Jews? For centuries Christians and Jews lived as second-class citizens under Islamic domination. Once majority rule is attained Muslims never live in harmony with anyone else. And until the Jews started returning to Palestine, btw, No Muslim was interested in Jerusalem. Only then was Mohammed's magical heavenly horse supposed to have
put his hooves down there. Now isn't that strange? And funny that the Koran doesn't even mention Jerusalem once in the whole book.

Charlie

Old Slaughter:

"Please justify increased settlements if one is serious about a two state solution?"

So building apartments in the Jewish section of "East Jerusalem" is settlements?

C. Gee
"" believes that pressure by the US and Arab nations has prevailed upon Abbas to forgo his condition of no-settlement building before resumption of negotiations."

Well Amr Mussa, Sec. General of the Arab League has rejected any negotiations.

Ronnie

Ah! I get it.

I'm clearly a Jew-hater because you're not allowed to say that settlement building has a negative effect on negotiations.

Excuse the hell out of me.

Cliff Leckey

If i`am not mistaken Joe Biden`s ancesters come from Londonderry. Yes, that Londonderry where the PLO flags are flying from the lamposts.
Says it all.

Adam B.

Augustus, precisely. Furthermore, when Jordan ocupied the Old City between 1948 and 1967, not one single Arab ruler went there.

I guess that must be because it's so "important" to Islam. Not ONE.
Arafat the Corrupt (founder of airline hijacking who provoked tears in the BBC's Barbara Plett) even claimed that the Jews had invented their ancient links to Jerusalem. Now they have Abbas the Holocaust denier (who Biden couldn't stop hugging)to deal with. What progress.

Rachael

Ronnie: “Do you regard that as a fact?”

Ronnie, it’s a fact that you are prejudiced against Israel all over this blog and even on this very thread. Let’s remind you:

Ronnie, March 10th, 2010 8:18pm, “Blah, blah, blah. Neither side is currently interested in a negotiated settlement. At least Israel seems to be being entirely clear about this.”

Ronnie, if you are prepared to criticise Israel for things it has never said then it is a fair assumption that you would criticise Israel for things it did say.

Or is your mind even more warped than it appears to be?

As to “the more people who describe all these silly slogans for what they are the happier I am”. So when people carry out those ‘silly’ slogans and murder Jews and blow up tube trains, you’re happy?

“Rule 1, never take your enemy's propaganda seriously.” No. You’ve been caught red-handed, Ronnie. That’s why you want to pretend no-one should take it seriously. You’re wishing away facts isn’t going to help you.

It’s not ‘silly’ when people fly planes into buildings, when tubes are blown up and when Israeli civilians are indiscriminately targeted by Hamas bombers working to the agenda of Hamas MPs.

You say: “I have made no attempt to blame anyone”. So why did you single out Israel with this spiteful prejudice: “Neither side is currently interested in a negotiated settlement. At least Israel seems to be being entirely clear about this.”

“You do realise that many people have opinions...?”

Yes, Ronnie many people have many opinions – where are the facts to back up yours?

C. Gee

Charlie,

I mentioned Keinon as an example of the futility of diplomatic tea-leaf reading.

If there is one fact that needs to be recognized is that the Arabs have no interest (politically) in negotiations for a state. They may have an interest in negotiations for negotiations, as this produces concessions from Israel - usually called good will or confidence-building "gestures" - and strengthens their pipe-dream-or-nothing position. "Hard compromise" for a state does not sell to Palestinians, who prefer to believe that they will return to the old olive groves from river to sea and thereby restore their honour (or face, which is closer to their notion of honour). "Political horizons" is a meaningless concept to the Arabs. When the US government speaks about the Palestinian folks needing a "political horizon" - and therefore Israel must stop its people living and growing and building - it is putting the cart before the horse, with the wheels upwards. Were the Palestinians capable of a imagining a political horizon, they could have arrived there already - in 1948, and 1967, and 2000.

That "settlements" should be the focus of the futile peace-process, is because both Arabs and Europeans are reflexively falling back on the old tradition of telling Jews where they can, or cannot, live.

Ronnie

I'm sorry Rachael, I think you are mad.

I said that I don't think either side are really interested in negotiations at the moment. I said that in the case of Israel I tended to agree with them. I don't see how that is anti-Israel?

I said that I thought that Israel was being more honest about it, and I do. I do not intend that as a criticism because I think that the Netanyahu government is being straightforward in this. I have not said that I think they should negotiate I've simply observed that they don't want to. How is that a criticism of Israel?

I have indeed crticised the Israeli government on a number of occasions. I have criticised lots of governments on many occasions but not the Israelis on this occasion because I actually don't see why they should show weakness in current circumstances.

I'm sick and tired of people quoting me the outpourings of muslim propagandists as an excuse to write nonesense here and elsewhere. It's bad enough that some of their people believe it, it's worse when we do.

You have rushed headlong to the wrong end of the stick here but I'm not surprised. Israel has enough real enemies out there, there is no need for you to go looking for more.

Neil Craig

This is the man wh+o said that he wanted to see the entire Serbian population put in "Nazi style concentration camps."

J+ust because he is a buffon ++people th+ink he isn't dangerous but he is an out & out Nazi only a heartbeat away from the Presidency. Who knows what political favours Obama paid off to take him as running mate. The intelligent answer would be that he chose him to ensure nobody would try to assasinate Obama. Even if Obama is that smart that would be no excuse.

The American media ++should be deeply ashamed that while they hounded Palin over her alleged lack of experience (in Washington that is - she had very successful experience actually running a state) they were completely silent on Biden's disgusting record.

Siôn Jones

It appears that it is not possible on this forum to dissent from the Zionist view.

There is a huge difference between being anti-Semitic, and having doubts about the Israeli's state's policies in the Occupied Territories, but this sort of journalism blurs the line to the point where one becomes the other - you are creating anti-Semites!

Carl

Siôn Jones - you can't even mention the glaring overlooking of Christian Nigerians massacring Muslim Nigerians which led to the latest reprisal attacks there. It just doesn't fit the anti - Muslim mindset preferred here.

YA

Carl,
Sion Jones,
Rachael

have you seen "Alice in Wonderland"?

Very-very transparent symbolics is there. Especially, when beautiful, elegant, clear faced Alice, in shining armour, with uncovered blond hair, reluctantly but firmly, chops the head of very unpleasant monster.

There was also a good mouse, small creature but armed with very sharp rapier.

"Nanny McPhee" is cooming soon. That is about cute little swines everywhere.. wow.

Adorable stuff. I recommend.

C. Gee

Carl:

And before the Christian massacre of Muslims, there was a Muslim massacre of Christians. Cycle of violence?

Harry J

Ronnie, it’s very clear what you said.

“Neither side is currently interested in a negotiated settlement. At least Israel seems to be being entirely clear about this.”

The suggestion here is that Israel is ‘being entirely clear about this’.

But Israel doesn’t want to kill every non-Jew and have Judaism take over the world. It’s clear from that MP’s speech that’s what Hamas wants. It’s clear, too, from Hamas’ charter what it wants.

“I'm sick and tired of people quoting me the outpourings of muslim propagandists as an excuse to write nonesense here and elsewhere.”

You don’t say! I’ll bet you’re sick and tired of it. It completely shows up the folly of your position. It must be incredibly humiliating to hold such stubborn views and then have people show them up all the time.

If a person - particularly a politician - says a thing and people do those things, it means something.

It’s not a joke. It’s not silly. And it’s not nonsense to point it out. This is just you trying to close down debate by saying that one side’s words matter and another’s don’t.

Adam B.

How about a response Edwards?

Truthtriumphs

Melanie, you ask why?

The answer lies in one word---- anti-semitism---- no other reason.
And it accords with the EU definition, as Israel is singled out for the crime of settling, or, as in this case, re-settling.

Adam B.

Sion Jones, you think it's acceptable to say that the Jews bring it on themselves?

Awful.

Ronnie

Adam B.

I am damned if I can see where Sion Jones actually said that. She made a reasonable point based on the precept that every action produces a reaction.

Quite a few people here seem to have a problem with simple comprehension. No matter what anyone writes, the serially paranoid only wish to confirm their own prejudices. Then, without a hint of irony, they accuse others of closing down the debate.

What debate, I wonder? When minds as closed as theirs' makes such a thing impossible.

I'll save you all some time by responding now to the inevitable accusation of being a 'useful idiot'. Well, at least I'm useful.

In spite of all this nonesense, I am sticking to my contention that Israel's current lack of enthusiasm for negotiation is entirely justified. I assume the zealots will continue to disagree with me.

Adam B.

Ronnie

Her logic is such that it removes responsibility from the anti-semites, (who, let's face it, are behind the current anti-Israel hysteria) and places it on those who expose it.

It is a disgusting argument to claim that anti-semites are "made". I think it is you who needs to think about the implications of such an argument.

Ronnie

I'm afraid, Adam B, you are counting dots on a pin-head. It matters not whether anti-semites are born or made. What matters is opposing them and ensuring that their numbers do not increase.

Your apparent steadfast refusal to accept that it is possible to support and defend the existence of the State of Israel and its people while at the same time finding fault with particular actions of it's government, as one often does in the case of other countries, is simply weird. It must also be exhausting, in the same way as a guard dog is exhausted after each long day of barking.

Winning over the moderate or uncommitted to your cause by rabidly and immediately insulting them is not a course I would recommend.

Ronnie

Incidentally, I did respond to the lightening-quick Harry J but my post seems to have been lost.

john Norman

Sion Jones, antisemites are always self-created. They persuade themselves that anything a Jew does is wrong and threfore they must be right in detesting Jews.

Ronnie

A man walks into a cafe one mid-afternoon, asks a passing waitress for a plain white coffee and sits down at a table beside the window to read his newspaper.

After a few minutes of wrestling with the flapping pages he comments, to no-one in particular, 'Thank God Israel can still look after itself in this world'.

His previously unnoticed neighbour sits upright in his seat and snarls at him, 'how dare you suggest that Israel is the aggressor in all of this! It's people like you who are creating the anti-semitic hysteria in this country at the moment. Work for the BBC do you...?'

It's an ugly moment that passes only when the offended one rises to pay his bill at the counter. 'I can't sit in the same place as disgusting people like you. Hasn't history taught you anything?'

'Yes, actually, it has taught me that people generally prefer to talk rather than listen'.

Adam B.

Ronnie - what are you going on about?

It is a disgusting argument to claim that anti-semites are "made" - period.

Sad you can't see that. Also sad that you can't understand that the surge in anti-Israel hysteria is primarily motivated by anti-semites. That is NOT the same as saying every criticism of Israeli policy is anti-semitic.

phil

Ronnie it is more than obvious that you are not an anti-Semite and why some of these posters are in an argument with you is beyond me -I believe it is entirely healthy for all of us to say the state has made a mistake when that is what we perceive ,we all support Israel that is also obvious ,and even when we agree with policy as you did earlier you are being criticised for the way you expressed your support
--
.Sion and Adam (a long time friend) should never be involved in a fight with people who love the state of Israel ,we have enough enemies without this sort of thing -I suggest you "kiss and make up"--carl and edwards are far more worthy of your wrath and proven enemies of Israel -save it for them even though it is a waste of time .
----
Rachael ,you really need to calm down ,some remarks you have made are extremely rude and unwanted -I assume you are young and passionate ,as I was once ,Ronnie is a friend and you should show some respect .

Robbit

Dear Worried,

Hate to make you more worried than ever but your "in part" has to be replaced by "completely".
Israel, Jews and the Middle East are the one bellwhether of the age, the single sine qua non of the quality and integrity of any individuals thinking about virtually any issue whatsoever. I say this from long experience and observation. Hear what anyone has to say about Israel and the Jews and you will almost invariably be able to asses astounding precision the level of his thinking and judgement moral imagination on virtually ANY issue, from potty-training to the role of the UN to the meaning of life the universe and everything. It really is as simple as that. Mostly.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
"... the surge in anti-Israel hysteria is primarily motivated by anti-semites. That is NOT the same as saying every criticism of Israeli policy is anti-semitic."

I see the formula has acquired a super-subtle lawyerly quibble or distinction. What is it for? In practice, any criticism of Israel you come across you dismiss out of hand as anti-semitic.

Henry Sidgwick

"Truth"triumphs
March 12th, 2010 12:23am
After the historical pratfalls of our previous discussion, I'm surprised you have the gall to appear here again; but I'm not surprised that it is in support of something so crass - "why, once again, is a final solution being imposed by America upon democratic and beseiged Israel..."

phil

JOHN ROOSEVELT in case you are not aware ,the lovely philo is desperate to hear from you on the "rational thread" and she is definitely in need of some of your home truths and carl is not worth arguing with anyhow ,he has been here for years peddling the same old stuff,he is very thick skinned though as he gets battered from pillar to post and still comes back for more, a real journey man as the say in the boxing game- best regards-phil btw does anyone really think Israel will take any notice of this nonsense about building harming the peace process -what peace process ? a few shnmatter houses will change nothing.

Philo

Phil,
"...she is definitely in need of some of your home truths..."

I thought as much. They're "home truths" now, are they?

"...building harming the peace process -what peace process ? a few shnmatter houses will change nothing."

As I said, lacking the wherewithal.

Henry Sidgwick

Yehuda
March 10th, 2010 7:27pm

You appear to have but one historical error, which you repeat as if repetition will make it true.

phil

Philo
March 13th, 2010 8:28am honestly you make my day -you really are good fun .a bit useless as regards debate but nevertheless good for a laugh -thanks keep it up ,I would miss your sharp wit and I do hope you will hear from JR who probably adores you just like me .happy mothers day

Adam B.

Sidgwick, utter rot.

I'm sorry you find the distinction so difficult to fathom. You may as well conclude that no criticism of Israel is ever anti-semitic - and if you believe that, you can find some fairies at the bottom of your garden.

The level of anti-Israel hysteria comes from somewhere - where do you think ot comes from?

Adam B.

Robbit, couldn't agree more. The composer Shostakovich (not Jewish) said that during Stalin's reign of terror, he would find out what someone thought of the Jews. If that person made disparaging remarks, he knew he would never be able to fully trust them - because of a terrible flaw in their character. It was a test.

Adam B.

Are Philo and Sidgwick one and the same?

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
No, I am not Philo, although Philo does show some of my good sense.

Your "utter rot" misses the point. You concede in principle that all criticism of Israel is not anti-semitic. Yet in practice, any criticism of Israel you come across you condemn as anti-semitic. The question is what is the purpose of your concession in principle? It makes no difference to how you behave. It makes you no more willing to consider any criticism. It makes you no more discriminating in where you choose to deposit great piles of of smear, insult and non sequitur.

phil

ADAM B -----------the great supporter of all things Israeli aka H Sidgewick needs to be told that all criticism of Israel can be assumed at first to be not anti-Semitic, but with the proviso that when it comes from a person who can never find anything done by that country as right ,it can be assumed that it may well be .
--------------
Does HS fulfil such a description? I suspect that his female admirer and I would be arguing long into the night in the jury room and the judge would have to accept a verdict of 11 to 1-My own real problem is if he is just anti Israeli rather than anti -Semitic ,a label I do not like attributing to anyone -we never hear of him as anti Sudan, anti Burma or even anti Zimbabwe ,so perhaps before sentence he would like to offer an explanation to us ,an offer btw that we would never receive in the countries he so admires .I very much doubt that the great philosopher that he impersonates would take kindly to his stance ,but of course he cannot speak up for himself .

md

how did the americans get left holding the bag of a mess created by the british empire, anyway?

Adam B.

Sidgwick, let me explain this to you again.

I do not label every criticism of Israel as anti-semitic, and never have. I do, however, believe that the current hysteria and malice shown towards Israel, which goes well beyond simple criticism of government policy, is primarily motivated by the evident increase in anti-semitism, which is proven by all statistics complied by the CST, as well as in other countries.

One usually gets a sense by the terms in which the criticism is couched, as to the motives of the accuser. Sometimes it isn't so apparent, but often it is.

The attacks and organized campaigns against Israel by NGO's, in universities and in certain sections of the media go well beyond criticism and veer into anti-semitic territory. These include delegitimising the Jewish state completely, falsely accusing Israel of wrongdoing through blatant lies and distortions, whitewashing the crimes of Israel's attackers, accusing the Jews of being modern day Nazis, vilifying the Jewish state at the expense of exposing the worst atrocities in the world, which are frequently ignored by the very people who are screaming about Israel. Frequently, such anti-Israel demonstrations openly declare their anti-semitism - you can see them easily on Youtube. You can also see blatantly anti-semitic cartoons in many European newspapers. The double standards and false accusations tell you something. A sensible discussion about the Middle East has been rendered virtually impossible in such a poisoned atmosphere - and the poison is quite deliberate. The goal of many in the Israel bashing lobby is not a peaceful settlement but the destruction of the Jewish state. This is patently obvious to all who listen carefully. It has been covered at length in Melanie's previous blogs, which you have surely read.

I have to confess at wondering why you find this so difficult to understand.

Derek

This thread seems to have strayed way off message.

In response then to the opening sentence of Melanie Phillips' blog where she wrote:
"Israel is in the doghouse with America because it revealed during the visit by US Vice-President Joe Biden that it was building more houses for Israelis in east Jerusalem.",

here then is a reality check from Ted Belman on Israpundit for those who can't smell the coffee in the Coffee House:

"...where the homes are to be built is not in “east Jerusalem” but northern Jerusalem. It is therefore excluded from the freeze."

Read on - the truth will make you free: http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=21375#more-21375

Adam B.

Sidgwick, do you understand now?

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
In this instance, it would appear to be you who misses a simple point. I must be expressing myself badly.

You acknowledge in principle that not all criticism of the way the state of Israel treats the Palestinians is anti-semitic.

However, in practice, you have never yet accepted any criticism as such. Your acknowledgement in principle therefore has absolutely no effect in practice except as window-dressing. You dismiss all criticism of the state of Israel as anti-semitic and therefore unworthy of a considered response.

It is certainly necessary to root out anti-semitism. This is made more difficult by confusing anti-semitism with criticism of the state of Israel. Anti-semites identify Israel and the Jews. Zionists seek to identify Israel and the Jews for their own political ends, which is fair enough, but also for purposes of propaganda, which seems to me a mistake.

You say many things that are in part true, but use them to infer generalisations that they cannot sustain.

Robbit

Quite so, Adam B. It is THE litmus test. I use it all the time, and like Shostakovich I am not Jewish. It never fails.

phil

Henry Sidgwick
March 15th, 2010 9:38
Instead of trying to befuddle Adam why not address the point I made in my post-
phil
March 13th, 2010 5:43pm it would save a lot of time even if you do not like replying to my incisive questions ,or is that asking too much ?

Truthtriumphs

Henry Sidgwick.

My previous observation,namely, that you are a crank, still holds true.
Commenters are well advised to give you a wide berth.

Adam B.

Henry, your logic is faulty. You say that I don't join in with the criticism - that's becasue I reject it. I support Israel's actions. That's not to say that everyone who criticizes the Israeli government is anti-semitic. What I'm saying is that I believe most of the criticism is indeed motivated by anti-semitic bigotry - very little of it, in my experience, comes from a genuine desire to see peace. Usually, these "critics" would be happy to see Israel destroyed. You can see this by the virulence, the outright hatred, and the language employed by such people. I think deep down, you know it's true.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
On reflection, I'm sure you will realize that there is nothing faulty about my logic. You may also acknowledge that yet again you have tried to side-step an argument by pretending to be too obtuse to understand it. Unlike some of the supporting cast here, you are not (I suspect) as limited in intellect as you make out in these exchanges.

phil

Adam B.
March 15th, 2010 7:21pm --This ongoing saga with the twisted mentality of our impersonator threatens to last longer than the mouse trap.he is trying flattery now ,perverse naturally,a smoke screen of course ,because this way he avoids answering any questions put to him and evades the truth in respect of his accusations .He is never able to answer any of mine ,so perhaps Adam you can tell me why are you bothering as he only succeeds in wasting your time -perhaps you might like to suggest he did the same as the kids in the cartoon ,the one beneath the zebra :)

Henry Sidgwick

Truthtriumphs
March 15th, 2010 3:15pm

Shall we share with others some of your "historical" gems?

Adam B.

Sidgwick, I had a good laugh at that one.

You are saying that I should condemn Israel because I hace agreed that now every single criticism of Israel is anti-semitic.

Yes, perfectly logical - except I agree with Israel.

Hard to understand, I know.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
"You are saying that I should condemn Israel..." (!?)

Okay, I concede: you are (although I find it hard to credit) as limited in intellect as you make out in these exchanges.

Adam B.

phil, thanks - I'm always touched by your concern. However, please understand - I love confronting Israel bashers. I derive great pleasure from it!

I'm never bothered by anything they say. This last one was a classic - beaten by argument, he was left with a rather limp "you're stupid."

Game, set and match.

Henry Sidgwick

Dear Adam B.,
No-one has said that you should condemn Israel. If you cannot understand the argument, I am not sure how you can "win" it.

Adam B.

Henry, re-read what you wrote at 9.38am.

I can't help it you can't remember what you wrote. You said that "in practice," I didn't accept such criticism.

That's right Henry, I don't - because I support Israel.

So what's your point?

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
"You acknowledge in principle that not all criticism of the way the state of Israel treats the Palestinians is anti-semitic.

However, in practice, you have never yet accepted any criticism as such."

If you can't understand what is said, how can you expect to contribute?

Adam B.

Henry, I have understood - and believe me, there isn't much to understand. It is you who cannot understand that Israel does not exist on this planet solely to be criticized. I do not accept the criticism because I think Israel is right.

Got it now?

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
Oh, dear G**!

You agree IN PRINCIPLE that there can be criticism of Israel that is not anti-semitic. However, IN PRACTICE, you label any and every criticism of Israel anti-semitic and therefore not worthy of serious consideration. Your agreement in principle is therefore of absolutely no use in practice. It is a concession that concedes nothing. It makes no difference. I suspect you made this concession that concedes nothing simply to try to appear reasonable while continuing to pursue a strategy of shielding your opinions from rational scrutiny. Now, try to read this carefully: NO-ONE HAS REQUIRED YOU TO CRITICISE ISRAEL. NO-ONE HAS INSISTED YOU ACCEPT CRITICISM OF ISRAEL. I have merely pointed out that you avoid giving criticism of Israel any serious consideration whatsoever by the dishonest means of labeling it anti-semitic. (As a note to help you with your still to be commenced campaign to increase the honesty of your contributions, no-one has said that Israel exists only to be criticised - this is another example of one of your standard tricks of vehemently denying what no-one has said.)

One thing you have managed to get right: this is not difficult to understand, it is not rocket science, it is merely the rudiments of rational debate.

I will leave you now to your study of the rudiments, the bare minimum required if you are to be taken as serious or honest in your contributions.

Adam B.

Henry - you really are amazing. You say:

"IN PRACTICE, you label any and every criticism of Israel anti-semitic"

Absolute garbage. I have NEVER done so - in practice or otherwise. It is ironic that those on the left claim that debate is shut down because they are falsely labelled anti-semitic, when it is indeed people like you who falsely accuse defenders of Israel as saying every criticism is antisemitic.

Of course, most of it is - and for reasons I have described to you ad nauseam - and which you still don't understand.

Got it NOW?

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
" I have NEVER done so - in practice or otherwise. It is ironic that those on the left claim that debate is shut down because they are falsely labelled anti-semitic, when it is indeed people like you who falsely accuse defenders of Israel as saying every criticism is antisemitic.

Of course, most of it is..."

Beyond parody. Beyond price.

Isaac Bickerstaff

Adam B.,
I thought I would look at your exchanges with someone else, to see if you are as evasive as you were with me. It has been both entertaining and enlightening in a small way to follow this thread. You have insisted with ever louder indignation to Henry Sidgwick that you will NOT criticise Israel ("Do you get it now?") and that you will NOT accept any criticism of Israel ("Do you get it NOW?")... and then when you finally understand what has been said to you - you don't miss a beat!- but, with the indignation full volume now, you insist you have NEVER said any and every criticism of Israel is anti-semitic ("DO YOU GET IT NOW?"). Your perseverance in indignant incomprehension is too funny to qualify as chutzpah.

Can I make a modest proposal, that you deal plainly with those you engage with. Make your point clearly and simply and answer theirs honestly.

Adam B.

Perhaps it would help if you learnt the meaning of "most"?

Adam B.

Henry and Isaac

Perhaps this is beyond your understanding - the difference between "all" and most"?

Henry, look what you wrote at 9.38am. You attacked me for not criticizing Israel, in light of my assertion that not all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic. I pointed out to you that I don't attack Israel because I agree with Israel. We have then witnessed a Pythonesque refusal to undertand the obvious on your part - that most criticism of Israel is indeed motivated by anti-semitism, but not in every instance. However, in those instances when it isn't, I nonetheless don't agree with it.

Hard, I know.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
This is exquisite. I did not attack you for not criticizing Israel. You are struggling badly here with the English language. And your "most" in principle has no practical effect on how you conduct yourself in these discussions - which was my point.

"You acknowledge in principle that not all criticism of the way the state of Israel treats the Palestinians is anti-semitic.

However, in practice, you have never yet accepted any criticism as such."

Please note that the "as such" refers back to the previous paragraph i.e. in practice you never accept any criticism of Israel as other than anti-semitic. Nothing about requiring you to criticize Israel.

..."DO YOU GET IT NOW?" (Guffaw).

Adam B.

Henry, you still don't get it.

You say that my admission that not every single criticism of Israel is anti-semitic has no "practical" effect.

I am most fascinated to learn what a "practical" effect would be. Could you give an example?

I'm looking forward to this...

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
March 19th, 2010 4:52pm
It is admirable that you can laugh at yourself like this. Not many can.

Adam B.

Henry, it's just as I thought.

Without an example, it becomes apparent that you don't have a clue what you're talking about either.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
We should have stopped teasing each other long since, but:

"...you don't have a clue what you're talking about either."

I am now so unsure how good your grasp of English is that I thought I had better check. What you have said seems to imply that you accept that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Such self-knowledge is so rare here (you have never exhibited it) that I assume you have just "mis-spoken" again.

Adam B.

No Henry, you have mis-read. I have no clue as to what you are talking about - and without that ever elusive example, (would you provide one?) it is clear that you have no clue what you mean either.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.,
A little hint for your continuing education in the English language: the ambiguity in what you said arises from the "either".

You seem to be demanding that I find you an example where you engage with a critic without accusing them of being an Israel-basher motivated by anti-semitism explicit or implicit. Can you find such an example?

I note that you have shifted your ground several times now on what it is you demand I tell you, but are now reduced to one of your favourite barren tricks, namely, the endless repetition ("Answer the question" or "Give me the example"). I suppose it keeps you in countenance.

Anyway, best wishes with the English lessons, and good-bye.

Adam B.

Henry - unable to provide an example of what you mean, it is patently obvious that you have talked yourself into a corner, from which you are unable to extricate yourself.

You now resort to a very misplaced and unearned condescension.

May I suggest some history lessons - as well as a course in critical thought?

Isaac Bickerstaff

Adam B.,
It argues, I know, a void or lack of purpose in my life, but I noticed that you and Henry Sidgwick were still slugging it out and I thought I would drop in to see how it was going. So that I can follow better what it is you are trying to say, could you tell me whether you are indeed demanding that Henry Sidgwick find for you an example where you engage with a criticism of Israel as anything other than what you call "Israel bashing" motivated by anti-semitism, hidden or avowed.