The war against the Jews (13)

Huw Thornton

I totally agree with your article here, Melanie. Criticism of actions taken by the state of Israel can certainly mask virulent anti-semitism. This strand of hatred when mixed with traditional British anti-semitism and Nazi-type ideology causes a horrible brew across the political spectrum. The thing which worries me the most is where the expressions of such thinking do not cause any objection, since they seem to be part of ordinary political discourse. But what to do? I'm stumped. Can other contributors help?

D Gray

As a Christian with Jewish blood on my Great Grandmothers side,I feel that its important to point out that although Jew hate and the absolute criticism of Israel by the mob mentality of the BBC etc is with us daily,we should remember that when this lies is exposed the BBC diminishes.The more the lies keep coming the easier it is to show them for they are.Israel has many friends who are disgusted by the ranting of the media and its support for terrorism against Israel.Lets be honest,when was the last time you heard the words 'PALASTINIAN TERRORIST'being used to describe the murderers of Jewish children?The internet and global web site access of sites commited to the truth of Israel's plight are the stuff of nightmares for the Jew hate lobby.The only thing that needs to happen is the continued shaming of those who participate in undermining Israels right to exist.Israel exists because God wills it.

phil

This article sadly says it all -How can a people of such small numbers in this world be responsible for so many ills.the extrapolation is so stupid that it is hard to believe it could happen .I never write about anti-Semitism or give it as a reason for anti Israel speak ,but it is becoming harder to find any other reason-One of my close friends (Christian)is in no way anti-Semitic and is a thoroughly decent person and yet he is scathing of Israeli policy-his only source of information other than me are the newspapers and subsequently others who are influenced by those papers and of course the BBC.He knows virtually nothing of the history of the ME and yet is ready to listen to the nonsense from people like Ilan Pappe -My answer to this is not that it is anti-Semitism but the culture of Britain's support for any *underdog*perceived or real allied to the long time manoeuvres of the foreign office to advance itself in the eyes of the Arabs (oil and strategic gain) -Britain is too great a country to go down the road of the nazis but until good people speak out we are drifting.Melanie stands out as a heroine but nevertheless this blog will have her detractors spitting out venom as usual -SAD

Thom

Amen Mel,

Whilst I disagree with many of your other areas of opinion (the place of government in dictating morality, drug use and personal freedom) I always back what you say regarding Israel; as a Christian who in the past was a member of several messianic fellowships I believe wholeheartedly in Gods special people. :)

Let me just say one thing though; you've continually refer to the left and right of the political spectrum - I say to you that there is no left and right; only a will to dominate others and a will to dominate oneself - that is why I believe in personal freedom and personal consequence and why I believe in Israel: a nation intent on self-determination and freedom.

As always a fine post

Leslie

Phil,don't you think that a lot of Christians in UK have been brainwashed by
replacement theology,and that this
blinds them to the true facts about
modern Israel? I have had many conversations with otherwise lovely Christians who have been spoon fed this false theology,and most are terribly anti-Israel.

Qui tacet consentit

See http://www.halesowennews.co.uk/news/yourletters/halesnewslettersletters/display.var.2118581.0.not_in_my_name.php for an example of the kind of diatribe some British Christians are writing... all on the back of 'reliable' BBC reporting, of course.

london Calling

I know what to do.....spread the word......
This ones for you all, with love from me of course.
http://www.spectators.youaremighty.com/

For anyone wanting to send their own message, just erase spectator on the active address bar, put your own text , view it and copy,paste and send to whoever.

Leslie

I think you should put a seizure warning on that one,London.

A Time To Speak

There may be a very complex etiology to this Judeophobia, but I would like to suggest two of the most salient likely causes.

1. Much of the "Palestine Problem" was created by British bungling and out-and-out treachery in carrying out its Mandate. Blaming everything on the Jews relieves the British of any responsibility, much less guilt, just as Europe collectively relieves itself of any guilt for 2,000 of persecution by showing that "The Jews are rotten and deserved it."

2. A comparison of British society today and Israeli society today, can cause discomfiture. In Israel, there is still a strong sense of national identity and commitment to a national culture, and a determiation to stand firm against enemies. None of this is found in the current (temporary)government and "elites," but they are not representative of the bulk of the population.

Furthermore, the bulk of the population still follows ancient values, centered around family life. Israelis get married, found households, have children, and raise them with care and love.

All this is enough to inspire envy in Britain and Europe, and envy inspires hate.

Scipio

I think you can trace the rise and decline of British anti Semitism/anti Israelism with the self confidence of the British people and pride in the greatness of the British nation. In todays politically correct Britain where Chamberlainism runs amok, naturally there is then a resentment and even visceral hatred against Jews and the Jewish state.

PHIL

Leslie,--replacement theology--I DONT KNOW WHAT IT IS BUT THE ANSWER IS PROBABLY(LOL)

Tony Allwright

People don't hesitate to say someone else is racist, fascist, sexist, ageist, etc.

And if I am called, for example, a sexist, I feel obliged to demonstrate that I am not.

So why is there such a reluctance to use the word anti-Semitic? It's up to all of us to label anti-Semitic behaviour and comment as, well, anti-Semitic. This will put the onus on the accusee to convince - if he can - that he is not.

And "anti-Israel" is invariably code for "anti-Jew".

Andy Gill

Huw -

While other minortities like Blacks and Muslims boast highly vocal organizations defending their interests, Jews in this country have no such group to speak up for them. I think the first thing would be to establish an organization that would forcibly and publicly challenge the anti-semitic agenda of the press and the BBC. At the moment, they can say what they like, and no-one complains.

Professor Wistrich's speech should be also given the widest possible publicity.

stanley Jerusalem

Having grown up in a society that described some of its literary giants as no more anti-semitic than absolutely necessary and witnessed at first hand the excesses of Moseley's blackshirts in East London after a World War in which we fought against what Moseley stood for,nothing surprises me about the readiness of the 'man-in-the-street' to silently embrace anti-semitism while apathetically watching the rise of a powerful pro-Islamic lobby in the UK.
The British working class have traditionally represented the epitome of political apathy for the entire 20th Century. The only activists in that period were the conservative capitalists and the communist-funded socialists.Now we have Enoch Powell's visions revisiting us in strange and peculiar ways and as I have said before, I put my money where my mouth is and view the entire sad spectacle from the comfort of Jerusalem.
Melanie says 'it will all end when the Fat Lady says Kaddish'
I believe her. She has already opened her prayer book.

Mike

Hi Phil: First of all let me say how disturbed I am by this latest 'War against the Jews #12 episode from the pen of Melanie Phillips. The problem is it doesn't get any closer to bringing peace and security to both Israel and the Palestians; the absence of which continues to resonate violently throughout the ME, and elsewhere. How can I dispel this notion in my head that the hard-line Zionists of Israel have 'unfinished business' with the Palestinians? You have asked me on more than one occasion if I know what Zionism is. To me there is a people, the Jews, who have a right, and one they should exercise, to a homeland in the land of Zion, that is, in Palestine. But you will have understood from our previous exchanges that this legitimacy of Zionism is almost a dead issue since it isn't relevant to the most pressing issue in the conflict, and that is whether or not Israel should withdraw from the West Bank, or 'Greater Israel' as some would describe it. But if Israel were to withdraw would that in itself bring peace and security? I very much doubt it unless there was a reconciliation of all that has gone before between Israel & the Palestinans. For that to happen there has to be a recognition of the truth which brings me to your opinion of Dr Ilan Pappe and his book 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine'. It pains me to say it, but how are you able to form an opinion of a book and its author unless you have read it? Your response is that 'one can't prove a negative' but surely you could defend Israel's history of 1948 by using each and every incident and refuting it by proving it to be a fabrication or similar.

Meanwhile, how can a person who is under occupation be described as a 'terrorist' for resisting that occupation. Perhaps if all the Palestinians were to enact 'Civil Disobedience' (ie the Mahatma Gandhi model) throughout Israel & the Occupied Territories would they all be labelled 'terrorists'?

Wahida

Mike this is a very valid point indeed.

How can a person who is under occupation be described as a 'terrorist' for resisting that occupation. Perhaps if all the Palestinians were to enact 'Civil Disobedience' (ie the Mahatma Gandhi model) throughout Israel & the Occupied Territories would they all be labelled 'terrorists'?

Stray Dingo

A Time To Speak is spot on

Edward

I wonder whether "Mike" considers Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Northern Ireland, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Cayman Islands, Pitcairn Island "Occupied Territory" - or maybe they don't fit into his monomaniacal agenda.

Gareth

Just for once, I have to disagree with Melanie. The BBC and the rest of the mass media don't support Palestinian terrorism because they are anti-semitic, but because they are pro-terrorist. It used to be said that the only thing the Polish military government and Solidarity agreed about was the need to support the IRA against Britain - an attitude fostered by the BBC as much as the pro-Irish lobby in Hollywood. There is a deeply rooted belief in the Leftist mind that terrorism is caused by "oppression" and that the only way to stop it is for the oppressor to mend his ways. It is this attitude - and the refusal of Israel to surrender to terrorism - which is driving the rise of anti-semitism among the chattering class. The way forward for Israel and the rest of the civilized world is to keep pointing to the evidence that islamic terrorism is caused by islam, not by oppression.

phil

Mike I hardly know where to start but needs must and I am answering you on this blog because this is where you pose your questions .When I was a kid we had a blue tin box in our house to collect money for the Jewish refugees from the camps_ -that dates me - and also to buy trees to plant in the hula valley so they could reclaim the swamps then plant fruit etc on land they had bought from absentee Arab landlords -that was the so called Zionist dream of the Jewish people--these were the real Zionists and those were the people who were attacked on all sides by massed Arab armies.in 1948 with a declaration that the Med would run red with the blood of the Jews-Jerusalem was besieged and cut off none gave them a chance of survival and yet they did and the Arabs had to ask for an armistice which eventually left Jerusalem a divided city that no Jew could enter until 1967, and now open to the whole world -I have driven up the road to Jerusalem and seen the burned out trucks where the young Israelis died in droves trying to supply Jerusalem -shot by the Arabs from the villages on the hillsides above , one of which of course was Deir Yassin where the* massacre* took place and has been vilified ever since -there is never any mention of the massacres by the Arabs not that I don't deplore all of them .Israel has been attacked 1948/1967/1973 and is still the subject of continual attacks ad infinitum -Can you really expect them to not retaliate ?I do not need Ilan Pappe to guide me through his version of history ,one that is deplored by a massive majority of academics- I know my history-What I do want to see is a Palestinian leader capable of controlling the evil thoughts of a minority of his population and who empower themselves by hate and intransigence -one who will come to the table like Sadat and King Hussein to make peace with his enemies ,and one who does give a damn about the poor children who he represents he would be welcomed with open arms . Now your question about terrorists -no I do not disagree with resistance or civil disobedience ,but I do disagree strongly with killing innocent civilians on purpose ,and before you tell me that Israel has killed civilians -they do not target them ,they in my opinion are the victims of the militants who do their work whilst among them ,not caring for their safety -I think between us we could have written a book and I feel I have achieved very little because you choose to believe a man with a minority view and with an agenda shared by hardly anyone ,your influence has been our man Fisk and your time in Iran and the Lebanon place where you are not likely to hear a balanced view-I know we share the dream of peace but that will never be so long as the militants retain support and comfort from people who do not know the truth .I am glad Melanie allows us this opportunity to exchange our views ,in this case probably rather long winded,nevertheless with passion -regards Phil

phil

Wahida why dont you leave Mike and I to say our piece we actually care and you do not have the manners to reply to anything, it is the ignorance and intransigence of people like you who deprive the two peoples of the chance for peace -if you cant say anything polite and constructive you just waste the space you are afforded ,and which we would not be under your rules-do I sound angry ?yes I am and that is rare because its thoughts like yours that are ruining our world

Bob Gray

I came to this site because I knew that Jewish people throughout the world were suffering intolerable abuse and worse at the hands of Islamists - an undeniable truth - and to see what ideas to counteract this were being aired. After leaving secondary school at 15 and drifting through various dead-end jobs, I am what you might call Anglo Saxon working class cannon fodder. However, being self taught, I am fully aware of the disproportionate contribution to the sciences and arts that the Jewish peoples have made and for that I am very grateful. It therefore saddens me when I read the generalisations by some of the previous posters regarding Christians in the UK. Carelessly tar me with that brush and you will alienate me or at least make me feel surplus to your requirements.. Perhaps that's what you want. Perhaps this site to you is just mutual whining and I was foolish for thinking that you would act on anything. 'Time To Speak': I defenestrated my tv two years ago because I loathe the BBC with a passion. And you? And no Leslie, I have not been brainwashed by replacement theology, nor have my mates down the pub.'Stanley Jerusalem':"The British working class have traditionally represented the epitome of political apathy for the entire 20th Century." Harsh but true I suppose. We tend to leave the intellectualising, philosophising and pontificating to the likes of you. But don't worry, when the East/West clash causes the inevitable war, us ignorant working class will be up there as usual, on the front line.
If some of you had half of Melanie's courage things might be moving a bit faster but, as it is, the Islamic menace creeps inexorably nearer and some of you are still counting angels on pinheads. Forgive me this outburst, hopefully Ravi or Frank Pulley will redress the balance and take me gently to task.

Robb

Leslie a comment from across the pond. You are so right about Replacement Theology. It is so wrong and benefits the enemies of our Christ.

Reid of America

The rise in anti-semitism coincides with Britains greatly reduced standing and power in world affairs. It also coincides with a greatly increased standing and power of the Jewish people and Israel in world affairs.

Israel has overtaken Britain in arms exports and weapons technology. This doesn't sit well with the British. China and India ascending as great nations is acceptable to the British but for the Jews to be more militarily capable than the British is unacceptable to their national ego.

Gideon Urbach

I, on the other hand, have read everything Ilan Pappe has written, and in the original German, I mean Hebrew. I also understand where he is coming from, as we share some cultural upbringing of time and place. Ilan Pappe is a political historian and his politics is Mapam. Mapam was a Marxist-Zionist movement with a strong Stalinist bend. If he were a member of the Israeli independence generation, Pappe would have been a proud Zionist eager to free the Arab "Fellah" from the tyranny of the land owner. Today - he is just offended by the middle classness of the Israeli society. His writings have little to do with fact based history.

Mike

Edward; Regrets but I don't do invective which is precisely what saying I have a 'monomaniacal agenda'is. If you wish me to respond to your post perhaps you could try a bit harder - more nicely perhaps?

Edward

"I wonder whether "Mike" considers Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Northern Ireland, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Cayman Islands, Pitcairn Island "Occupied Territory" - or maybe they don't fit into his monomaniacal agenda."

Mike, your dodge is noted.

BJ

What is a "psychic pogrom"? Is one engaging in it by disagreeing with Melanie Phillips?

Leslie

Bob Gray
I wasn't saying that all Christians
in UK have been brainwashed by replacement theology.I was referring to the many(not all)that I have talked to via internetI live in Canada,and am a Brit,daughter of a coal miner,and Christian too:)and have found that those who believe in replacement theology,in Uk,Canada,wherever, are more inclined to be anti-Israel.
I'm very sorry that I offended you.

phil

Bob dont be hurt by the angry remarks made by frustrated Jewish people on this site ,you and other christian s are not their enemies -the ones causing this trouble are the media like the guardian and independent not forgetting the appalling BBC--one can easily divine that you are not cannon fodder either -your thoughts and remarks are appreciated so please stay on board we need you

phil

MIKE you asked me a question on another site the answer is* not with a bang*-march 30 at 2.15 and *fitna*31/3 at4.13-I have been crying laughing and I enjoyed giving her a flea in the ear ,it just shows what sort of nutters we have to deal with (lol)-have a good laugh yourself .In spite of the seriousness of the subjects I love the freedom these columns afford us and the ability to exchange views and perhaps occasionaly to persuade

DougS

Bob Gray: Yes, please do stick with us. I can guarantee you that the vast majority of Jews appreciate (with a special warm regard) the support that they and Israel receive from those who are not Jewish.

Without you we are sunk, for many reasons, but not least because if only Jews defended Jews and Israel, the anti-Semites would say, "See, it's only the Jews looking out for their own interests."

I personally regard non-Jews who are as supportive of Israel as you as nearly heroic, as it must be extremely difficult in the intellectual and cultural environment of Britain these days -- what with the BBC et al. hammering it into impressionable minds that Israel (and implicitly Jews) are nothing but evil -- to be supportive of Israel and assail anti-Semitism.

Do stay with us, and stay on Mel's blog. More, much more than "cannon fodder", you are obviously educated and bright, as you write well (a personal benchmark for an educated person). You are PRECISELY the kind of person needed to defend (and as democrats, to criticize as appropriate) the West and its furthest outpost, Israel.

Very simply, thank you Bob Gray and all like you.

I am ethnically Jewish, I might add, though this should make no difference.

phil

Well said Leslie (the apology to BOB)I had not heard of *replacement theology* but I looked it up later so my flippant response earlier was maybe out of order-so sorry also to both of you -and my post to Bob was prior to seeing yours-it is nice to see someone who has the courtesy to say sorry -well done (not patronising I hope )--;)

Concerned Brit

I quite agree with Phillips and Gove. For a number of years I've been noticing the steady growth of anti-Semitism in Britain. It took a while for me to notice it hiding behind the tag of anti-Zionism. I'm glad Melanie points out that many British non-Jews like myself are extremely concerned about all this, for we are. Many Atheist Leftists can and do support Israel and without sounding too melodramatic, as long as I'm alive then Jews will never walk alone, to use a famous phrase.

Mike

Edward: If a people have their right to self-determination denied them, then I suggest to you they are 'Occupied'. This means generally that a people have a right to determine their own future, their own affairs. This alleged right was internationally acknowledged at the Versailles peace conference in 1919 in a speech given by Woodrow Wilson. I leave it to you to judge if the countries you list are 'Occupied' or not.

Huw Thornton

Andy -

Thanks for your reply, which I found very useful. My impression is that the BBC is supplying its viewers and listeners with stuff which - in a patronising way - the BBC think they expect. The BBC does not want to do anything to challenge a cosy consensus viewpoint about the world - even if that consensus is fundamentally very wrong, and great evils are being committed. In turn, what they supply helps to entrench that consensus. It seems to me that to challenge effectively a consensus like this is a big, big task.

raymond joseph douglas

During the 1980's,the harvest time fellowship under Bryn Jones was carrying all before it.Then,at the height of it's influence,it fell.Why?Because it's magazine,"Restoration", carried a anti-israel,anti-Jewish article,repalcement theology article.After this,harvestime was a shadow of it's former self.Sadly,this anti-israel sentiment carries on in christian charities like christian aid.As a bible believing Christian I find this all very sad.But God is not mocked.Those who bless israel,will be blessed,those who curse israel will be cursed.Genesis 12v3.

Mike

Phil: Writing with such style of your experiences and what you saw while you were in Israel you are beginning to sound not unlike Robert Fisk! Writing about what you saw. You ‘lived it' just as he does daily from his home on the Corniche, Beirut.

However, since its possible that historical events have more than one version it makes it very difficult to get at the truth. This is why I read Pappe’s book and watch the video’s of his talks at Oxford. Also I read Fisk, but mainly because he’s ‘there’, and ‘sees it as it is’. I’ve also read Jonathan Cook, and Emma William’s very special book ‘Its Easier to Reach Heaven than the End of the Street’, amongst others. All in the pursuit of opinions from which, hopefully, I shall get at the facts. However, since you’ve told me you don’t need to read Pappe because you know your own history, and since I’m not Jewish, but care deeply about what is happening in the Middle East, and since I don’t wish to be thought of as someone influenced by any single writer, are you able to recommend any book (in English) which provides an accurate and balanced version of Palestinian/Israel history.

Meanwhile, in one of your posts to me, you criticised the very recent BBC2 programme featuring former hostage Brian Keenan’s return to Beirut and his visit to Qana amongst other places. I’ve now found a 2006 interview of Fisk by Amy Goodman of ‘Democracy Now’. You may find it at
http://www.democracynow.org/2006/7/31/robert_fisk_reports_from_lebanon_on
It will be interesting to see how you view this 2006 tragic event in the light of this interview and any conclusions you may draw from it. As you will recall it is yet another incident, the impact of which reverberated across the planet, and did absolutely nothing in Israel’s favour. I have to say that unlike you it makes it extremely difficult for me to believe that morally the Palestinians are in the right, and Israel is in the wrong. If I were a Palestinian or an Israeli, I suppose the choice would be relatively easy – but I’m neither.

I also read Melanie Phillips who pounces on anything which could be interpreted as anti-Semitic and/or criticism of Israel as a world-shattering calamity. The fact is that throughout Europe today, and even if you include anti-Semitist, Le Pen, Jews are very much the in-crowd with far, far less to suffer and fear than many other ethnic groups. Those who support her view of the world so ardently, and who believe that what she writes is going to save the world from some disaster, is not unlike claiming that Bertrand Russell and the Quakers were all that saved us from nuclear war! In short, I believe, the real scandal today is not antisemitism but the importance it is given, and that in itself is promoting racism and a perceived ‘hatred of the Jews’. One has only to read many of the posts on Melanie’s blog to read a good deal of Anti-Arab sentiment which to my mind is far more serious and dangerous.

phil

Mike that was really something ,if other people read our stuff they will think we are having an affair(lol)-I always
wanted to be a writer so you hit a spot there- just a drudge through a professional life was what I got!! I have to admit I don't know which books to point you to as my knowledge is eclectic,from family ,friends ,visits, media etc-but I do think Melanie could point you in the right direction if you ask her at melanie@melaniephillips.com - try to get a dvd of the film *exodus*or better still read the book by Leon Uris -and there is a wonderful film called *cast a giant shadow*with Kirk Douglas those are both very easy reading and viewing also a book called the *HAJ*by Leon Uris ,the latter will show you how Arabs and Jews could and did live together in peace -Melanie's recommendations no doubt will be more full of real facts ,but mine will be easy and will give you the flavour of the times .Now Mr Fisk -does he spend time in Israel ?I think his view is from a balcony in Beirut and from the bombed out Hezbollah villages ,sights that can sear one,s soul ,but need to be viewed also by examining the causes ,which neither he nor Brian Keenan manage to do -I am of course sad for Keenan,s horror in Lebanon but his programme was just full of soppy talk and prejudice -Mike your man Pappe presents such a minority view ,and a view which I understand is reviled both as to facts and his politics ,which are more left than left -so forgive me I don't believe him -I realise that there is a lot of anti Arab sentiment on these pages -it will not come from me ,my desire is for justice for both sides which I have said many times and seems to give great amusement to the likes of the fragrant verity and her friends -the hate filled tirades and reciprocation from Wahida will never solve our problems -let me know if you get any joy from my recommendations and I feel sure Melanie will help you -and now Liverpool and Arsenal call -the salmon will have to wait

phil

Hi Mike the updating is very slow -I wrote at 7.30and its 22.15 now and nothing has gone on site yet and Chelsea chucked it, poor Avram will cop it of course -nevertheless I read mar Fisks report ,it was not a surprise I have of course heard him many times live, and there was nothing new -tragedy of course ,lives were lost ,both innocent and guilty and those that had no choice ,but did he say why those poor people were where the rockets were ?no he said why did the Israelis bomb where the houses were -you are an intelligent man you will work it out for yourself -what he is trying to do -I am deeply saddened by those events but my sorrow also goes to the Israeli families taking the rocket hits-I told you I had seen a lot of history ,back in the 60,s I was on a bus trip(just sightseeing) regularly targeted by the Syrians from Golan heights and not far away I also stood near the border with Lebanon where it was always peaceful -who changed all this ? The PLO with Arafat in Lebanon .and the Israelis in 73 in response to the Pearl Harbour like attack from the Golan by the Syrians - they do not rain down shells now . So you will see this is not a simple matter ,evil people with wicked agendas keep this terrible war going ,and twisting the truth just feeds the flames-just as a for instance there were pictures of an old lady in quana looking terrified and later it was shown as the same lady being in a number of different sites -just pure propaganda of course -I don't blame mr Fisk for that ,but you will have gathered I do not trust the information emanating from that mans pen -some parts may well be true but from the comfort of his balcony something's are definitely not -

Lynne T

Wahhida:

Funny you should cite Gandhi, a noted practioner of non-violent resistence in the context of the Palestinians, who are and have always been victims of their own rotten leadership, from the time of the Ottoman Empire and right on up until now, and have always chosen violence.

The Palestinians had plenty of time to set up an independent state entity in the Gaza and on the West Bank after 1948 and before 1967, but instead chose to make war, or were induced to make war by the powers that opposed any settlement -- primarily the regional Arab powers, and in the height of the cold war, by the USSR for its own strategic purposes, after originally supporting Israel.

Funnier still, give Gandhi's dispicable advice to the Jews of Europe facing murder in the gas chambers of eastern Europe: to simply surrender and protest the inhumanity through their deaths.

Before you go dashing off your next clueless opinion, try educating yourself a bit.

Lynne T

I see Wahidda was merely parrotting Mike above, which isn't so much an excuse for her failure to see the difference between the non-violent tactics of Gandhi or Martin Luther King and the extremely violent tactics of the Palestians as it is sad to see that there are two people on this blog incapable of appreciating that rather significant fact.

Mike

Phil: I'm a Man Utd man, but if they're not playing then I support Liverpool. Can't deal with those Southern 'Jessies'!

Back to Fisk - he's a war reporter primarily, so you really should pick up his acclaimed book, 'The Great War for Civilisation; The Conquest of the Middle East'. Read about his coverage of Afghanistan and Bin Laden, the horrific Iran/Iraq war, his journeys through Turkey and the former Armenia, Syria, Egypt, Jordan all written in is usual colourful style and wealth of detail. Of course it is a fierce indictment of Britain and America and their policies towards Arabia which have proved such a disaster. It's a book which makes one think, and a 'must' for anyone with an interest in this tragic but fascinating part of the world. Available on-line from Amazon UK at £9.09.

A couple of years ago I asked Melanie to recommend books, but although she gave me the courtesy of a reply she wasn't at all helpful. I guess I'll have to rely on Google, which doesn't help if one is on a passage at sea in a small boat, or at bedtime.

As you know I was in Beirut before and at the genesis of the Lebanon Civil War, and I came to the conclusion that the catylist was the presence of the Palestinans who had fled to Lebanon after King Hussain threw them out of Jordan. Lebanon's constitutional arrangement was always politically delicate: a Maronite President, a Sunni Muslim Prime Minister and a Shia Speaker of the House, but the flood of refugees tipped the balance and we ended up with one of the most vicious, and brutal wars of all time. But one has to ask where was the place of origin of these displaced Palestinians? We all know the answer to that.

I've asked this question before but I'm not where you stand on it:

Do you think that Israel still has unfinished business with the displacing of Palestinians, and further do you think it understandable that these people are still very anxious about Israel's expansionist policies and react accordingly, for example the continuation of new settlements on the West Bank?

phil

Mike thanks again -,I do think you should write to Melanie as I hope she reads our conversations and will realise you are genuine in your wish to understand -this world needs more people like you who even if they disagree at least will consider other peoples views ,** Do you think that Israel still has unfinished business with the displacing of Palestinians, and further do you think it understandable that these people are still very anxious about Israel's expansionist policies and react accordingly, for example the continuation of new settlements on the West Bank?** Mike I am against expansion as I SUSPECT MOST ISRAELIS ARE -I do not think they wish to displace these people at all ,just want to live in peace with them---- below is the wikipedia definition of the Palestinians-------For the term "Palestinian" as applied to Jews, see Palestinian Jew. For other uses, see Definitions of Palestine and Palestinian.
Palestinians

Total population
10,574,521 (estimated)

Regions with significant populations
Palestinian territories: 3,760,000[1]
Jordan 2,700,000[2]
Israel 1,318,000
Syria 434,896
Lebanon 405,425
Chile 300,000
USA 200,000
Egypt 70,245
Kuwait 50,000
Australia 15,000

Language(s)
Arabic
Religion(s)
Sunni Islam, Christianity, others
Related ethnic groups
Other Arabs, Jews, Bedouins, and other Semitic peoples

Palestine frontier 1922Palestinian people (Arabic: Çá'ÚÈ ÇáÝáÓØíäíý, ash-sha'ab il-filastini), Palestinians (Arabic: ÇáÝáÓØíäííäý, al-filastiniyyin), or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: ÇáÚ-Èí ÇáÝáÓØíäíý, al-'arabi il-filastini) are terms used to refer to an Arabic-speaking people with family origins in Palestine.

The first widespread use of "Palestinian" as an endonym to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I,[3] and the first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September 1921.[4] After the exodus of 1948, and even more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian nation-state----------------------you will see it is a very modern concept and there never has been a Palestinian state -that does not mean to me at least that they have no right to be a free people with their own state ,but perhaps you can tell me why the Arabs themselves have never helped to establish a state for them within the massive areas they command ,neither do they help to get them out of the *camps* or establish a viable economy for them -I think it is ridiculous to think that they could all go to live in Israel -it is a great point to fight about but truly daft to think it would work for either people -I am a pragmatist Mike -I look to the future of the children of both peoples and I dont see perfection as a possibility -I hope Melanie will help you, please try

DougS

Mike@ 5:32: You finally said something truly grotesque, and for this reason Phil and others ought to stop responding to you. You’d deny it with the dishonesty of your sort, but your postings smack of anti-Semitism and appeasement.

According to Mike: ". . . . I believe, the real scandal today is not antisemitism but the importance it is given, and that in itself is promoting racism and a perceived ‘hatred of the Jews’. One has only to read many of the posts on Melanie’s blog to read a good deal of Anti-Arab sentiment which to my mind is far more serious and dangerous."

The "real scandal" is the emphasis given to anti-Semitism? I can see you believing there is too much emphasis given to it, but a "scandal" to focus on the group in Britain most prone to "racist" attacks; a group that suffered the Holocaust no more than 60 years ago; the ethnic group reviled for over 2,000 years that has been subject to displacement, theft, rape and murder; and, now, the legitimacy of whose homeland -- or that of their co-religionists -- is under fundamental assault?

And focusing on anti-Semitism promotes racism? This is truly blaming the victims. Disgusting . . . .

And, finally, yes it's true that anti-Arab discrimination exists, and that's a tragedy -- as is any ethnic, religious or racial hatred -- but with half a billion Arabs in the world who have something like two dozen countries to call their own, it pales in comparison to anti-Semitism. And to suggest that Melanie's blog is somehow the home of Arab hatred is absurd. Are there some posters who refuse to hide their ugly distemper over Arabs? Yes, and it's a hurt and disappointment to all decent people. But Melanie, herself, only opposes Islamism, the jihadist philosophy that is connected to the faith but does not define it. I would defy you to cite any examples of Melanie Phillips disparaging Muslims or Arabs who are not either the radicals, terrorists or their sympathizers -- or those who remain quiet when they have a duty to speak.

Phil: It's always the supporters of the West or of Israel who are expected to be "understanding" of those who would kill them; always us would are asked to stand in the others' shoes. Isn't it time they stood in our shoes and tried to understand our position; or better, simply left us alone in peace and not either attacking us with the worst gutter vitriol or worse, with guns and bombs and rockets.

Enough with “Mike” and his kind.

Bob Gray

With genuine respect for you both,I think the 'Phil and Mike Show' may have run its course. Perhaps it's time to accept an honourable stalemate on this one. Like some latterday Spassky and Fischer perhaps. Maybe bring those intellects to bear a tad more individually, otherwise you'll soon have us all making ribald comparisons with other double acts in history. Please accept this in the spirit it was intended and my kind regards to you both.

alex

I will take my counsel on good journalistic practice from Avi Weinberg, secretary general of the Israeli Press Council "...a journalist subject to a [government] boycott is a good journalist..." [YNETNEWS, 20/3/2008] as the BBC have been by Mugabe, (possibly Putin as well) oh and they were subject to repeated attacks by campbell, Blair and co, and Norman Tebbit. Thank God that the secretary general of the Israeli Press Council believes in free speech because clearly Miss Phillips, Mr Gove and the nutcase bloggers on this site clearly don't.

Canuck, AMG

In 1983, two Canadian Jews wrote a book titled "None is Too Many" (Irving Abella & Harold Troper) It chronicles the plight of European Jewery from 1933-1948 with regard to Canadian Immigration.
The title of this book, "None Is Too Many" is a quotation from a senior Canadian offical (Deputy Minister of Immigration Fredrick C. Blair) regarding Jewish immigration to Canada. It is a well known fact that the Government of the day, under Prime Minister McKenzie King was anti-semite to the core.
History repeats itself again & again,especially regarding the plight of the Jews.
Historically, the Jews as a people have suffered more than any other people group since the beginning of history.
From the Diaspora (70 A.D.) to the present day.
As a Christian, I am really ashamed by our apathy and indiffrence to well documented facts concerning anti-semitism that predates Islam by at least 400 years.
While we can self rightously point our fingers at fanatical Islamic Fundamentalism, we are inclined to agree with what our news media presents to us as fact,especially concerning the the situation in the Middle East.
I would state emphatically that it is anti-semitic.

Mike

Phil: As always your post makes for interesting reading, but since we have house-guests staying with us to-day thru’ next Tuesday, a more complete response will have to wait.
Meanwhile, and in reply to ‘DougS’, I don’t think I can do better than quote from the preface of Jonathan Cooks ‘Blood and Religion’:
Quote: ‘Israel’s apologists have succeeded in excising from the debate about the Jewish state the language of universal rights and justice, values by which we judge other problematic conflicts. In the case of Israel, the culture of apology is now deeply rooted in the West, particularly among European and American Jewry.
The apologist has a well-tested strategy. Whenever a critic of Israel makes his case by citing an example or an incident, the apologist will provide a counter-example or counter-incident, however irrelevant, to suggest either his ‘opponent’ is unfamiliar with the material or to suggest his motives are suspect, the anti-Semitism canard. Challenges of this kind may do nothing to blunt the thrust of the original argument but they are a very successful ploy. The critic’s credibility can be dented with readers and, more damagingly, with commissioning editors, the media’s gatekeepers, who decide whether a news report or comment article will be published. Critical writers who wish to contribute to the mainstream media must either accept a bland, diluted terminology acceptable to the apologists or devote endless amounts of time, energy and valuable space trying to second-guess how the information they include will be distorted. As a consequence, much of the debate about Israel is weighed down with trivia, pedantry and obscurantism’ Unquote.
I’m glad that you and I try to avoid these pitfalls, and I’m also very happy that the hosts of this site are such excellent ‘gatekeepers’.

Incidentally, I welcome Melanie’s posts on her meeting with Iranians in London, and her comments on Ed Balls and the issue of selection in faith schools'. More time, perhaps, for those later.
A bientot, Mike

Leslie

If it walks like a duck.....

phil

Bob.I was beggining to think the same so smiles all round -Mike vaya con dios amigo bob is right, and doug I still thinks Mike means well -we will all speak again

mara

Melanie, you are a bloody treasure, and I'm not a Jew. I love the fact that you attempt to keep us all honest. I suspect, that as time goes by, Israel will be fighting above its weight. I wonder and worry.

Mike

Phil: Let's hope we ALL mean well! Tell me if you are able to sign the following Open Letter. I certainly would if I were Jewish. As an Anglo-Saxon like me, what do think Bob?
http://www.peacemideast.org/index.htm#top
In haste - guests have just arrived!

phil

Mike I have read the web site ,it is of course admirable ,but what is the point when it is obvious to most sensible people that the Israelis want peace -millions of them .The action needs to come from all the H,s and jihadis not from the likes of me -I,ve been there for years as have most of the commenters here even if they get a little belligerent from time to time -I have never heard of A Jewish person blowing up planes or bandaging his head and making crazy videos threatening his own countrymen ,until this mentality stops there will be no peace .You and I wont make it but our influence might help -If your friend Fisk and his pal Bowen et al used their efforts in a truthful and constructive way they could make quite a difference -meanwhile I hope your guests are well fed and UTD win tomorrow .Try some chopped liver and chicken soup they help to guide the mind in very peaceful ways:)

Soreofhing

According to Wistrich and Melanie, any criticism of Israel or Zionism equates to anti-Semitism.
A vain attempt to quash criticism and a blatant attack on freedom of speech, and freedom of speech is certainly required to control the bellicose Israeli expansion and mistreatment of the Arab population in the occupied West Bank.
Israel has been consistently and rightfully blamed (including the UN Security Council, the EU, and surprisingly the US Government) for its policy of establishing settlements in the occupied areas of the West Bank.
The Israeli army and airforce are used on a daily basis to illtreat the civilian population of Gaza and the West Bank--people who do not have the luxury of having an army, airforce or navy.

Sergey

The Hama massacre (Arabic: مجزرة حماة‎) occurred on February 2, 1982 when the Syrian army bombarded the town of Hama in order to quell a revolt by the Muslim Brotherhood. Amnesty International estimates between 10,000 and 25,000 were killed at Hama.[1][2] The Syrian government has made no official claim about the number killed at Hama.
That is how Arab states resolve their "Palestinian question", so you can compare this with Israeli policy. It should also be kept in mind what this bunch of Arab thugs disingenuously called "palestinians" means when they whine about "oppression": that they are not allowed to murder their neigbours as it please them. I vote with both hands for this oppression, for any alternative is much worse. If you believe that they are capable to create a peaceful, democratic state, you are dangerously naive. Show me a single such state populated by Arabs, from all 22 members of Arab League! You can not? It worth to ask yourself why.

Bob Gray

Mike: Hmmm. Tricky. I suspect that, if I were eligible to sign, my instinct would be not to. I would understand if any of the contributors here thought the letter to be 'giving an inch' or the 'thin end of the wedge'.
The more interested in this whole subject I become, the more I realise how little I know. One thing that strikes me:why are our signatures not required? Would this letter, for better or worse, carry more weight if it were also signed by non-Jewish people - why the exclusivity? I hope there's a simple answer.
Phil's comments were noted and I must say, for him, they sounded unusually wearied. He has probably considered similar proposals years ago which is why he sounded a little sceptical. If forced to decide, I would board his train on this one and I suspect the carriages would be pretty full.
Full of people, it seems to me, whose fingers have been burnt so many times before, they are now reluctant to negotiate with matches - and who can blame them?

Mike

The following is not from the pen of this Anglo-Saxon, but a signed-up consensus of the view of thousands of American Jews. While hoping not to invite the usual tirade of invective from the majority of folk who post on this site, it is my view that the most significant part of this declaration is the reference to the ethical and moral basis of the Jewish tradition. It is this that is under threat and it would be a tragedy for the world if the Jews were ever to let it fall away. Read on:
‘The root cause of the Palestine-Israel conflict is clear. During the 1948 war, 750,000 Palestinians fled in terror or were actively expelled from their ancestral homeland and turned into refugees. The state of Israel then refused to allow them to return and either destroyed their villages entirely or expropriated their land, orchards, houses, businesses and personal possessions for the use of the Jewish population. This was the birth of the state of Israel.
We know it is hard to accept emotionally, but in this case the Jewish people are in the wrong. We took most of Palestine by force from the Arabs and blamed the victims for resisting their dispossession. If you run into someone's car, for whatever reason, simple justice demands that you repair it. Our moral obligation to the Palestinian people is no less clear. It is time for all Jewish people of good conscience to make whatever amends are possible to the Palestinians in order to live up to the best part of the Jewish tradition—its ethical and moral basis.
The persecution of the Jews for centuries in Europe was the worst of many stains on the European record, and the Zionists' desire for a place of sanctuary is certainly understandable. Like all other colonial enterprises, however, Zionism was based on the total disregard of the rights of indigenous inhabitants. As such, it is morally indefensible. And, as previously stated, all subsequent crimes—and there have been many on both sides—inevitably follow from this original injustice to the Palestinians.
In the long run, only by admitting their culpability and making amends can Israelis live with their neighbors in peace. Only then can the centuries-old Jewish tradition of being a people of high moral character be restored. And only in this way can real security, peace and justice come to this ancient land’.

Mike

Phil: Got up extra early this morning to write my piece on the concensus of 000's of Jews in America. As we all know, the first casualty of any War, and most importantly of Melanie's series of 'The War Against the Jews', is the TRUTH. I believe I've found it albeit with the help of US Jewry.

Want a bet on Man U winning again this w/e? We're having a pool on the National over lunch to-day. Bon weekend.

Ann

Wistrich is wrong on one point, and one point only: there is no 'Palestinian' terrorism. It is Arab terrorism. These people are Arabs.

Ann

"One of my close friends (Christian)is in no way anti-Semitic and is a thoroughly decent person and yet he is scathing of Israeli policy-his only source of information ..." etc -- sorry, this argument is back-to-front. You claim that your friend is not antisemitic, you even try to give him a handwaving alibi by describing him as 'a thoroughly decent person'. Won't wash. His attitude is antisemitic, which makes him an antisemite by definition.
Part of the reason for the spraed of antisemitism in Britain is precisely this: its adherents are given a free get-out-of-jail card by being described as 'decent people'; and 'decent people' are deemed (not by me) to be untouchable as far as being exposed as antisemites is concerned. This approach, this immunity from exposure, preserves and propagates the situation where antisemitism is 'acceptable'.

Leslie

Mike,though loathe I am to fall into the trap of useless arguments,I can't keep quiet when I see the same old lies about the Arab population being "expelled" from Israel.
Do some real research,and you will see that the truth is that the Arab leaders told their people to leave until they had finished off every last Jewish person. Jewish people even begged them to stay.
This really makes my blood boil,and no,I won't offer proof,it's up to you to search out the truth and stop looking for whatever suits your prejudices.But I won't hold my breath over that.

phil

Mike I will take Utd but as Bob says I am getting weary of this discussion -this time you are quoting pure Fisk and although I accept you believe it the facts are just plain untrue -WE did not steal *Palestine* from the Arabs -it was the ottoman empire that it lost in the world war 1 settlement -Britain just were the mandatory power and left in1947 hopefully to the UN partition plan -I am sure you must know what happened then -Tel Aviv bombed immediately -I am afraid all we are achieving is attracting people like *SOROFHING * SEE ABOVE writing the usual hate filled tirades ,both here and other threads ,so I am out of here now and I wish you all the best in your search for the truth I hope I helped a little and I look forward to other discussions on subjects we are more likely to agree upon -SHALOM

Ben-Tsiyon

Third generation born and bred in England and now advanced in years, I'm sorry to say that I have observed since my earliest years that cocksureness, conceit and an air of superiority are common traits among some (not all) Anglo-Saxons. Mike has repeatedly demonstrated this in his style of writing, from which I guessed that he is Anglo-Saxon. I don't doubt that a number of Jews in the US have penned letters expressing sympathy for the "Palestinians" (as have some Jews in the UK and Israel), although he doesn't say how many "thousands" or where and when this was published. As he probably knows, there are even Arabs,inside and outside the Middle East, who speak up for Israel and us Jews (e.g. Noni Darwish of 'Arabs for Israel'; Walid Shoebat, former jihadist). So what ! Such people are usually regarded as misguided or traitors, depending upon one's point of view.

Mike

Bob Gray: I'm so glad that a fellow Anglo Saxon finds this debate interesting, and since it would appear you are looking for some basic information on this extremely complex issue I suggest you take a look at the following:

Quote. 'The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs' inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).
The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists' intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)
In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn't matter. The Arabs' opposition to Zionism wasn't based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.' Unquote.
(Source Jews for Justice in the Middle East)

It may please Ben-Tsiyon to know that this was also the source of my earlier post. And for Phil: that post had nothing at all to do with Robert Fisk. For Leslie: Please help me to take your 'blood off the boil' by providing me with better sources for the information you know I'm searching for; THE TRUTH.

phil

Ann back from holiday I assume ,rather hoped you had disappeared -I do not need you to criticise my friends -I will make the judgement as to their racism or lack of it -I have to accept that they do not agree with Israeli policy and also that, that does not make them anti -Semitic ,because I know they are not and frankly you do Jewish people no service by repeatedly whining about it -If you read my post properly you would have understood the reasons for the way I believe they think ,and maybe tried to do something about the causes rather than fling your insults about .Your posts are invariably aggressive and rude ,sadly you pass the moderator but you do not get past me when you include me in your diatribes even without the courtesy of using my name -.I am well aware that Melanie's articles attract anti-Semitic views from time to time by idiots and racists and if I feel it is appropriate I say something,thankfully they are few and far between , but I do not enjoy these incessant accusations just because commenters have a different view -and in particular as you claim you are an atheist don't you think it would be more appropriate for people of religion to make any complaints they feel necessary .

Ann

"Like all other colonial enterprises, however, Zionism was based on the total disregard of the rights of indigenous inhabitants. As such, it is morally indefensible" - ignorant nonsense. The Jews ARE the indigenous inhabitants, and as such cannot 'colonise' their own country. This pernicious, antisemitic false analogy, often trotted out by the slow of thinking or outright antisemites, immediately shows up the writer's agenda.
---
The rights of the Jews are the ones that have been ignored: their right not to be expelled from their own homeland, Israel, their right not to be massacred. Anyone who ignores this fact and whinges about the rights of foreign invaders like the Arabs, has no alibi against the charge of antisemitism.

Ben-Tsiyon

It may please Mike to know that for most of my 78 years I've become hardened to dealing with people of his skewed viewpoint, so that if my blood was ever "on the boil", it has been "off the boil" for a very long time ! As for providing him with "better sources for the information [he's]..searching for", there's no way in which I could assist him, for like all those of his persuasion he will always believe what he wants to believe.

Mike

Ann: Suggest you take your comments direct to 'Jews for Justice in the Middle East' who I'm sure will deal with your charge of 'anti-Semitism'. You can find them via Google. Meanwhile, I suggest you don't mess with Phil. He's quite a formidable adversary in this ongoing debate, and you are not doing yourself any favours by lashing out in the manner you employ. It's not worthy of you, and please don't slam the door as you leave!

phil

Mike I had intended to finish our discussions but you seem to have taken that as an opportunity to quote these *Jews for justice*as the experts on this subject -do you realise who you have got into bed with -I think not---these are a minority people many of whom are awaiting their messiah and don't believe that he will come as long as Israel exists ,they stoned the Israeli soldiers in 1948-many are what we would term religious fanatics -please stop this nonsense and do some proper research-you are just digging a hole for yourself and winding up some pretty unpleasant critics-why do you keep going for those off piste sources when there is massive history available to you and not from outrageous minority groups -it is really disturbing -I DO HOPE i CAN CONTAIN MYSELF AND NOT WRITE ON THIS SUBJECT AGAIN

Mike

Ben-Tsiyon: While I fully respect your advanced years and the wisdom and knowledge you must have acquired down the years, I would urge you not to judge my 'views as skewed' but simply recognise that apart from the books I read, I'm fully supportive of the position held collectively by 000's of Jews in both this country see: http://www.ijv.org.uk/ and by American Jews see: http://www.peacemideast.org/index.htm#top

Therefore, I'm not at all sure whether you apparent anger is directed at this Anglo-Saxon or a significant number of Jews in the diaspora, not to mention, of course, the many Israeli's who are also sympathetic to their position.

I wasn't aware of Nonie Darwish until you mentioned her, and for sure I'll take considerable time out to read her articles and try and come to an understanding of her point of view. I'm looking forward to that.

Mike

Phil: It's upto you whether or not to leave from the table, and I can understand you're frustration at being challenged by a point of view which is so contary to everything you've probably ever believed and accepted from the cradle. However, I regret I must challenge some detail of your latest post which avers that my sources 'are a minority people many of whom are awaiting their messiah and don't believe that he will come as long as Israel exists ,they stoned the Israeli soldiers in 1948-many are what we would term religious fanatics' Therefore either you or anyone else kindly visit:
http://www.peacemideast.org/openletter-links.htm and explain to me why all 14 of these Jewish organizations working for peace with justice in the Middle East,
presumably fall within your classification of being 'religious fanatics'. It defies common-sense that all if any of them were in Israel in 1948. I would guess that many of them were not even on this earth at that time.

phil

Sorry Mike I give up before you refer me to *the grand mufti was really a nice guy web site *- -you are finding any minority opinion and continually quoting from them ,everyone is telling you that you are wrong-surely you cant think you are the only one in step here ,particularly as you are addressing people who want peace and are not fanatics - I am going to let the others continue this dialogue if of course they have the stamina

Ann

"Ann back from holiday I assume ,rather hoped you had disappeared" --- yup, the usual ad hominem, rude, personal, brainless attack from a poster who then whines about other posters being rude.
---
"I do not need you to criticise my friends -I will make the judgement as to their racism or lack of it" -- not on this blog, you won't. If you choose to make a statement here, other posters have every right to comment on it. If you can't take it, then you are free to take your posts elsewhere, somewhere where your pomposity is not challenged by people who disagree with you.
---
"Ihave to accept that they do not agree with Israeli policy and also that, that does not make them anti -Semitic" -- I disagree with you, and will continue to say so. If you don't like it, then tough.
---
"rankly you do Jewish people no service by repeatedly whining about it" -- utter nonsense. I will continue to post my opinions, just as you do.
---
"If you read my post properly you would have understood the reasons for the way I believe they think" -- other people can read and understand, mate: despite your delusions, you have no monopoly on that.
---
"Your posts are invariably aggressive and rude ,sadly you pass the moderator" -- and this poster complains about rudeness? ROFL.
---
"but you do not get past me when you include me in your diatribes even without the courtesy of using my name" -- oh, really? You are not the moderator, despite your obvious delusions, and you are not going to shut me up.

Ann

"and in particular as you claim you are an atheist" -- what patronising nonsense. I don't CLAIM it - I am an atheist.
---
"don't you think it would be more appropriate for people of religion to make any complaints they feel necessary" -- I don't need your permission to post my opinions, don't you know. And as to 'people of religion', this poster seems to be under the delusion that the Jews are 'only' (as it were) a religion, and not a nation. What ignorance. And then he posts whole reams of opinions based on this ignorance, but tries to stop me from posting.

Ann

"Ann: Suggest you take your comments direct to 'Jews for Justice in the Middle East' who I'm sure will deal with your charge of 'anti-Semitism'. You can find them via Google" -- I will take my comments wherever I jolly well please, with or without your permssion.
---
"Meanwhile, I suggest you don't mess with Phil. He's quite a formidable adversary in this ongoing debate" -- I am quaking in my boots, mate. But nonetheless, I will continue to comment as I see fit, with or without your approval.
---
"don't slam the door as you leave!" -- more delusional nonsense. It's not for you to ban me from this blog. I will continue to post, whether or not my views make you uncomfortable.

phil

Just keep taking the pills ANNE-it seems to be getting worse:)
I could arrange a 5 rounder with latchford UFC rules -I would pay for that-and Attilla offers training free of charge -alternatively ricky hatton doesnt have an opponent yet for may and the money would be good -hope you are as good at taking it as you are at giving it out -just try a left jab and a smile ,you will feel better

Ann

How about spelling my name correctly? I might even start taking you seriously if you managed that little thing.

phil

Ann
April 7th, 2008 2:02pm
How about spelling my name correctly? I might even start taking you seriously if you managed that little thing.

THE SPELLCHECKER FROZE IN FRIGHT WHEN IT SAW IT WAS YOU

alex

To Miss Phillips, having just watched your advert for your book on Fox news (via YouTube) it strikes me that some facts need correcting here. In that 'interview' you state that Islamacist terrorism is "..not terrorism as we understand it". This is what I understand terrorism to be. In the period after the second World War my great uncle was a British soldier based in British Mandate TransJordan, he had a lot of friends there, Jews, Christians, Muslims etc and wanted to live there after being demobbed but then a friend, who must have had 'connections', warned him not to be at the King David Hotel because there was going to be trouble that day, and there certainly was, including the terrorist murder of 15 Jews killed in an act of terrorist bombing that helped create a state. In 1995 I was going out with a woman who lived on the Isle of Dogs, or as you rich people call it Docklands. I cycled to college on many occasions from the island although I lived in North London. I was at home in North London one day and heard a very loud bang, it was the IRA blowing up a DLR station about three or four miles waya on the island. Two people were killed in that explosion, one of them ran a kiosk that I regularly stopped at on my cycle route to college. He was an Asian man, possibly Muslim, I dont know having never asked him. A couple of years later, whilst still at college I was also working in Whitechapel, and again, used to cycle to work/college. And guess what, my route took me through Brick Lane, the day before the man known as the Brixton nail bomber exploded a bomb in Brick Lane that was clearly aimed at Muslim residents and shopkeepers. In Israel and Palestine there is a very exclusive club to which only certain 'selected' people can become members, to join you have fulfill one rigid rule. Its called the Parents Circle and membership is solely based upon having 'lost' a direct family member, or spouse, due to conflict, and by 'lost' I mean that they have to be dead. No one wants to join a club like that but many people are because what this club does is TALK TO PEOPLE, they go in for what, you, Miss Phillips, describe as the 'fad for conflict resolution' (a very telling phrase). Terrorism is terrorism whether practiced by the IRA, the Irgun, by neo-fascists or by Jihadists. What the Parents Circle want is to try to reclaim hope from an appalling, abnormal situation and the way they suggest this can be done is by changing the rhetoric, and they should know, they have cried the tears. Yesterday I heard on that 'leftnik' TV station CNN that Muslim graves in France have been desacrated by neo-Nazis who sprayed swastikas on the memorials of soldiers, some of whom died fighting for France. On the web I can read loads of blogs that say that Europe is anti-semitic and has been 'transmogrified by Islam' and words like 'Dhimmitude' and 'Londonistan' have become the common currency. An extreme example of this rhetoric is one book, which I will not name, which advocates nuclear war with any, and possibly all of the Islamic countries, which recognises terrorists as enemy brothers (even if it wants to kill them all) and excuses the mass rapes of women in Berlin by Red Army soldiers as justifiable considering how the Russians suffered in the war. This disturbing book is advertised on a mainstream Israeli newspaper and it goes way beyond anything that would be considered as the legal limits of free speech in this country. The discourse of hate that produces this kind of book has been picked up on by the BNP in this country because they have realised that, (in their own words) attacking 'Manny Cohen' is not getting them anywhere, but attacking Muslims pays dividends, a million votes at the last Euro election, up from the 100,000 they got at the previous Euro election. Whilst you, Miss Phillips, only highlight the threat of Muslims to 'Western civilisation' another reality is slowly unfolding without being noticed, the fascists, and by that I mean, fascists, are back. They were allied to the Tories in the European parliament for a time, they got into government in Austria, Denmark (a bit of context for those rascist, Islamaphobic cartoons which were almost reprints of characterisations of Jews in Der Sturmer) in nice Norway, in liberal Holland, in Italy, where they will possibly be back soon and several other countries. Most of Europe is populated with white Christians, not Muslims, not Jews. The real threat to Europe comes from the invisible slide to fascism that builds on genuine fears of Islamic terrorism, fears that some commentators, who should know better, play on (in contrast, say, to another very objective and remarkably balanced, legal journalist who used to work for the wicked auntie but is now at....err, is it the Torygraph?). The problem is that the wood and the trees are being confused, the enemy is at the gates, in fact they are inside of them, getting jobs in governments, local and national but they are fascists, not Muslims, so are you, Miss Phillips, going to write about them, the parties who are trying to gain votes by whipping up fears of Muslims? As that German pastor didn't quite say: First they came for the leftniks but you write for the Spectator, a neo-con joke of a political magazine,(which is almost as laughable as its apparent nemesis the New Statesman) so you did nothing, then they came for the Muslims, but you say that they are virtually all extremists, so you did nothing, then they came for the 'free' media, the media that is not yet controlled by governments, and you cheered them on, then they came for the people that they really hate, remember who that is?

Mike

Ann: Good on you girl! Keep posting. Every blog thread needs someone as spirited and forthright as you. But I think you have to be as comfortable at taking the flak, as well as dishing it out. If in doubt always withdraw gracefullly to the 'high ground'. The truth will always come out in the end. In my humble opinion , that is! Best Wishes,

phil

Alex forgive me but i am totally confused by your last post I feel sure you are trying to make a valuable point but I cant work out what it is and I AM NOT BEING SARCASTIC HERE -i REALLY DONT -I HOPE YOU WILL MAKE YOUR MESSAGE MORE CLEAR LATER.one things for sure you need to be more careful where you ride your bike .

KateA

Alex - an 'interesting' but factually inaccurate analysis. One must conclude that you BELIEVE publication of factual information in the public interest, exhorts a population to fascism!

An extraordinary and self-deluding perception! Melanie Phillips bears NO responsibility for the 'swing' to BNP policies in Britain; it is patently - for all who care to examine the record - the failure of democratic government that has produced this historical repetition of 'the gyres'.

Germany was humiliated by The Treaty of Versailles; a humiliation that led to the failure of the democratic Wiemar Republic. The treaty gave no room for German input and, instead, ostracised the new democratic Germany. Germany was not allowed to join the newly founded community of nations (League of), humiliating further its national consciousness. Germany remained a pariah in the postwar order - Versailles was a 'peace' of submission and punishment which disabled democracy and prepared the ground for National Socialism.

The Jews, despite integration into and, enormous contribution to, German society, were identified and targeted as 'immigrant i.e. not of the Nation. It was, of course, scapegoat propaganda without any verifiable foundation.

Not so the Islamic 'immigrant' hostility presently faced by Europe. Verifiable evidence of subversion and jihad is easily available for those with eyes to see - riots, intimidation, 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali, India ...

Democracy is defined by a social contract. That 'contract' requires elected representatives to give priority to the welfare of the majority electorate. That 'majority' is commonly understood by the indigenous population as The Nation. To bring it closer to 'home', the British Nation.

Unfortunately, in Britain and Europe post-WWII, the social 'contract' has been betrayed by successive governments determined to establish a UNITY of disparate nations under the auspices of, first the Common Market and today, the European Union.

"Eurabia .... was conceived and planned by the European Council and implemented by the European Commission as a supranational policy, linked to the European Community interests and immediate security concerns over terror and energy supplies.

The EC correlated a massive Muslim immigration to a strategy of peace and stability in the Mediterranean, hoping that the Euro-Arab symbiosis through economic development, soft diplomacy and multiculturalism would guarantee peace, markets and oil.

... Muslim immigration is welcomed as an element of a Mediterranean geo-strategy conducted as a partnership with the Arab-Muslim world on the base of pacifism and continual funding ... similar to subsidies* given to economically underdeveloped EU ember-states."
[* for subsidies read 'aid' and Palestine - billions in EU funds to facilitate the lifestyles of the PLO hierarchy.]
http://counterjihadeuropa.files.wordpress.com
/2007/11/year-Brussels-October-2007.pdf

Despite Tory and Labour promises to their own electorate, British governments have adhered to this absurd and ill-conceived strategy for close-on 40 years.

In particular, England, Holland and France have seen huge swathes of territory colonised by immigrants unwilling to integrate, unwilling to contribute, but visibly 'taking' and apparently intent on the imposition of an alien culture i.e. Sharia law and a religion founded in the arrogance of superiority and subjugation.

For those who SEE (with their own eyes) traditional national self-determination weakened and discarded by their elected representatives, those who feel the humiliation of discrimination in their 'own' country, the Far Right is voicing the fears and resentments 'official' government policy ridicules and forbids as 'racist'. This populist 'awakening' is somewhat different in 'kind' to the contrived anti-Jewish propaganda perpetrated by the Nazis.

However, history evidences all totalitarian rule as suppressing freedom of, not only speech, but even independent thought and observation. Totalitarianism dictates the people obey all policies of the State without question.

Books such as 'Londonistan' or Melanie's research and reporting are, of course, anathema to those who support totalitarian mediocrity as opposed to the exercise the faculty of intelligence.

In Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany, those with POWER and a particular totalitarian agenda, targeted scapegoats. Today, the scapegoats of the uninformed 'Left', those equally ignorant of the true philosophical definition of 'cultural relativism' AND the binding force of ideological Islam, are individuals clear-sighted and courageous enough to seek to INFORM.

Factual information is as abhorrent to that other pernicious ideology - multiculturalism - as is the recently published Lords Report that the majority of immigrants to England 'take' rather than contribute.

The 'taking' is in the form of colonisation, translations/translators, 40+ languages in schools, dumbed-down education to facilitate multiculturalism, housing shortage and unremitting pressure on maternity and mental health services. All these 'takes' are funded by the British taxpayer. All the shortages are borne in real life and time by the British taxpayer e.g. pensioners. No British citizen ever agreed to undertake such liability. No indigenous Brit ever envisaged the compliant handover of territory to Islamic interests. I include here Whabbi buy-up of British shares, banking, oil and weapons agreements.

The premise that Islamic Jihadist terrorism can be conflated with Irish Republican terrorism, Irgun terrorism or any other kind of terrorism is frankly, the theatre of the absurd.

The King David Hotel was Irgun's reaction to the betrayal of a decimated people. Jewish settlers in Israel (including members of Irgun) fought WITH the British in defeating Nazism. In return, Britain refused survivors of the Nazi death camps right of entry to Palestine, sank the ships and/or returned them to Europe even though pogroms were again taking place in Poland.

Irgun had NO policy of converting the world to Judaism, no policy of world domination, no policy of invasion of any other nation. The numbers who died in the King David cannot, by any feat of biased reasoning be taken as analogous with 6 million. That the British covertly supported Arab aggression against Jewish settlers is now uncontested and on record.

Having spent 30 years of my life combating the propaganda of the Provisional IRA, it is the ultimate irony that I MUST contest the conflation of that organisation with Jihadists. NO Irish Republican organisation has, at any time, sought world domination or Catholic conversions. The ONLY agenda (since 1798) has been territorial sovereignty on the island of Ireland.

Your post Alex contains analogies which cannot be sustained BECAUSE logically, a form of reasoning in which one thing is INFERRED to be similar to another thing, on the basis of an idiosyncratic or factually uninformed perception, does not hold up. These are analogies grounded in an all-encompassing false premise.

Mike

Putting aside some of the posturing of posters on this thread, let's for a brief moment, look at the harsh realities:

Quote: 'The Iraqi civilian death toll since our invasion is now greater than the total number of British military fatalities in the Second World War, which came to an astounding 265,000 dead (some histories give this figure as 300,000) and 277,000 wounded. Minimum estimates for Iraqi dead mean that the civilians of Mesopotamia have suffered six or seven Dresdens or – more terrible still – two Hiroshimas.

We have dispatched our armies into the land of Islam. We have done so with the sole encouragement of Israel, whose own false intelligence over Iraq has been discreetly forgotten by our masters, while weeping crocodile tears for the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have died.

America's massive military prestige has been irreparably diminished. And if there are, as I now calculate, 22 times as many Western troops in the Muslim world as there were at the time of the 11th and 12th century Crusades, we must ask what we are doing. Are we there for oil? For democracy? For Israel? For fear of weapons of mass destruction? Or for fear of Islam?

We blithely connect Afghanistan to Iraq. If only Washington had not become distracted by Iraq, so the narrative now goes, the Taliban could not have re-established themselves. But al-Qa'ida and the nebulous Osama bin Laden were not distracted. Which is why they expanded their operations into Iraq and then used this experience to assault the West in Afghanistan with the hitherto – in Afghanistan – unheard of suicide bomber.

And I will hazard a terrible guess: that we have lost Afghanistan as surely as we have lost Iraq and as surely as we are going to "lose" Pakistan. It is our presence, our power, our arrogance, our refusal to learn from history and our terror – yes, our terror – of Islam that is leading us into the abyss. And until we learn to leave these Muslim peoples alone, our catastrophe in the Middle East will only become graver. There is no connection between Islam and "terror". But there is a connection between our occupation of Muslim lands and "terror". It's not too complicated an equation. And we don't need a public inquiry to get it right' Unquote.
From the pen of Robert Fisk.

Leslie

Mike,if we all lose our freedom,it will be with the help of people like you I'm afraid.
I will stick to the road less travelled.

Mike

Leslie: I'm very much afraid the road we're on now will lead us ALL to Hell. There has to a change in direction. Now I read that Hizbollah are in receipt of Iranian ground-to-air missiles ready for the 'next' war with Israel. Their deep underground air-conditioned tunnels North of the Litani River are formidable, and ready if in a war situation Israel is forced to send in land forces because they will have lost, for the first-time, control of the skies over Lebanon. And so it goes on. How many Israeli families are ready to see their sons sacrificed once again in such a battle against a far more resolute and better equipped force than heretofore? What is the point of continuing to fight an unwinnable battle? We have to face up to these harsh realities and learn from the history in these ancient lands.

Huw Thornton

Mike -
In your quote, you have: "We have dispatched our armies into the land of Islam." As I understand it, Osama bin Laden's quarrel with the West became active when Western troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia as a result of the occupation of Kuwait by Iraq. Leaving aside the question of whether complete disengagement by the West in "the land of Islam" is in any sense desirable, how on earth could it operate in practice? Do you think that it would be possible to have, in effect, two worlds, completely separate from each other? And, if not, how could we meet Islamist demands even if (unlikely in the extreme) it was considered desirable to do so?

Mike

Huw Thornton: I think some folk would believe that 'two seperate worlds' exist right now. What I'm advocating is a political reconcilation which would appear to be the inevitable outcome of the present civil war in Iraq. Perhaps it's also the only answer for Israels survival. If this means talking with Hamas, Hizbollah then so be it. I just can't believe a force of arms will work in either situation.