A revolutionary proposal

Adam F

I still believe that Israel can count on America as her friend, if not the current president. As for Clinton et al if the Obama administration wanted to go in a different direction they would also. As I have noted before I really do not think that President Obama is going to be in a political strong enough position to radically change the US's support of Israel. Not least because of his real problems with the Health Care bill. I think that a PR campaign is in order ideally aimed at middle America and although American Jews have been strong supporters of the Democratic party I think we need to ask ourselves if our support is being taken for granted. Also in the end it will be come clear to the President that no position he could adopt towards Israel would satisfy Israel's (and for that matter America's critics) or indeed most of those who comment on CIF.

As for the UK the battle is well and truly lost here. As I can attest to, being a graduate student at an elite British University.

As for Iran, we must make it clear to the American people and the Congress that a nuclear armed Iran is not just a threat to Israel alone. Not that I think that they need telling.

blue_&_white_avenger

Absolutely spot on, Melanie.
I could add that a tiny % of Left-Wing, Jew-hating Jews also exacerbate the problem & why, when Israel is at war, it permits agencies from Europe to funnel money into Israel-quangos working against its best interests, I fail to fathom.

Dixon

Is that a pic of Masada I see before me?

Big Bob

All this talk of 'lies' beneath a picture of the Masada (myth). The irony.

Ordnance

Isreal could the tables on the West by signing up with Russia giving them a foothold in the Middle East and getting in return access to total political/military support, unlimited energy/commodities supplies, and UN veto. The question Obama would have to answer is - Who lost Isreal?

Matt Pryor

Adam F: The battle is being lost in Britain because those of us that support Israel do not intimidate, burn BBC buildings and riot to make our point of view known.

If we do not support Israel our own fate will be much worse. What is happening there is a vision of our own future.

djw2009

>>>in fact the Jews and the Jews alone are the rightful heirs to the land, in historical, legal and moral terms, and a monstrous injustice has been and is still being done to them.

This comment is so extreme I doubt I need to be the one to deconstruct it. Suffice to say, you would be on sturdy ground to just say: Israel is here, to stay, and its people won't be pushed into the sea, and the Arabs just have to be realistic. I think nearly all conservatives are prepared to admire the pluckiness of the Israelis, but don't forget the Israelis are part of the post-Enlightenment civilisation of the West. Once you start making comments like the one quoted above, you become like the Chinese, a pre-Enlightenment culture that is unable to see things rationally and from both ends. In fact, Israeli newspapers are full of anti-Zionist comment, confirming that Israel is a post-Enlightenment nation with the ability to criticise itself.

Jim Blaisdell

Melanie:

Support for Israel by the American public remains overwhelming despite the deviousness of our political class.

This fight isn't over by a long shot.

Matt Pryor

Also Melanie, if you read Bibi's book "A Durable Peace", you will see that he understands the dangers to Israel and the Jewish people only too well, and is fully aware of the inversion of reality and cause that has led to the situation as it is today.

Adam B.

Masada a "myth" Big Bob?

Care to explain? Ever been there?

Andy Gill

But there is another major problem. The Western mainstream media refuse to publish anything critical of the Palestinians.

For example, in the last week or so we know that: a Thai worker in Israel was killed by a Hamas rocket; Abbas named a square after a suicide bomber (her haul included 12 children); the IDF released a report with declassified papers showing that Hamas fighters used 100 mosques and hospitals during Cast Lead, and documenting countless cases of them using human shields.

Barely a mention of any of this has appeared in the Western press. Whether this is because our media is now controlled by Arab oil money, or whether they are terrified of terrorist reprisals I don't know.

Matt Pryor

I see on the UK consulate's website that Milliband has also joined in with the Israel bashing. How predictable.

The Conservative Party needs to start expressing its strong support for the State of Israel against Islamic terror. They need to provide the UK with leadership and start stating the truth about the situation without fear of reprisals or losing votes. They need to do it right now.

Labour is weak against terrorism. They appease and allow radicals to infiltrate the government at all levels. They pay people not to bomb us. It's pathetic. The Conservatives must be strong against terrorism, as they were during the worst of the NI troubles.

As things stand (and judging by William Hague's comments in front of parliament) they are going to be just as bad as Labour.

Simon (aka piggy kosher)

Please see my posting on the "Israel alone" article.
20:10 17/03
I like to think you read my post. Your excellent piece here has a few vague echoes of my usual disjointed thought processes.
The entire paradigm of the "piss precess" must be shifted.
No land for peace, peace for peace, cultural acceptance for cultural acceptance. That would mean education for Palestinian children would have to be taken from palestinian "educators"
All must be renogotited, the UN must be told IN A PUBLIC FORUM (ie televised) that Israel will no longer accept this badly scripted bent natrrative and most go back to basics. The basics being that the onus of providing a homeland for palestinians rests squarely with Jordan and the arab world, since Churchills worst act in his life; the 1921 "partition" to create transjordan.
This must be backed up with a relentless reeducation campaign.
The best PR men in each individual country must be hired, ie Clifford in the UK.
The Wests populations must be "deprogrammed" from the evil BS they have been inculcated with.
It is doable. This palestinian/arab/marxist narrative is surprisingly brittle and and inflexible. Ive noticed time after time that it cannot withstand an assualt from historical or demographic or even diplomatic history.
The argument folds and the usual tactics of delegitimisation, muddled and slanderous statements, and finally racism are employed by the befuddled islamofascist/if supporter/ Jewhater
They are vulnerable on so many fronts, in so many areas.
Just some thoughts.

C. Gee

Could Israel do without America?

It could withstand withdrawal of loan guarantees and other aid.

It could withstand UN isolation.

It could withstand Security Council resolutions.

It could withstand expulsion from the UN.

It could win a war with its Arab neighbours - especially when its hands are not tied - if the Arabs fight alone.

Could it survive an American economic boycott? For a while.

It could NOT withstand an Iranian nuclear bomb. Though it could send a return gift.

Could it attack Iran preemptively if America were to knock out its planes (the Zbigniew Brzezinski Option, growing in favor), or otherwise prevents Israeli action? That is the only question that really matters.

Matt Pryor

Andy Gill: This is also something I've been noticing more and more lately. Also, even on websites for newspapers that I would previously have considered balanced and fair, such as Times Online, it's become very difficult to get comments published that do not conform to the "Israel=bad, Palestinians=victims" narrative.

I've tried several times today to post some comments that have been quite fair and considered, not insulting, but possibly critical of the PA and Hamas, and not succeeded. And yet any old rubbish that vilifies Israel gets immediately published.

It's all very odd. Perhaps someone "in the know" could explain what's going on?

I hate conspiracy theories, but I'm really starting to wonder.

Dixon

"Ordnance
March 19th, 2010 4:41pm
Isreal could the tables on the West by signing up with Russia giving them a foothold in the Middle East and getting in return access to total political/military support, unlimited energy/commodities supplies, and UN veto. The question Obama would have to answer is - Who lost Isreal?"

Unfortunately, the ordnance is being sold by Russia to IRAN! Particularly air-defence systems. They may be rubbish, but its hardly a gesture of friendship to Israel. Especially as Israel offered to pay the Russians not to sell the Iranians the missiles concerned.

By the same token (that, excepting a couple of airplanes, Russian kit is rubbish ) I cannot see Israel wanting to arm themselves with such junk. Their home-made materiel is far superior. Indeed, so superior is Israeli weapons technology that they are already exporting it to both Russia (UAV's) and the USA (ABM technology)!

Dixon

I totally agree with Mels strategy, but I could put it more in a nutshell: the western "idiotocracy" is adamant that (echoes of Protocols ) the "Israeli Lobby" is secretly pylling strings in the US et al...so why not take the view that if thats what Israel is accused of they have nothing to lose by actually doing that! So they should start by broadcasting directly to Western, particularly US, populaces about how their future is being sold away by not only Obama but most leaders of the EU. In effect, Israel should take a direct and open involvement in elections in those countries. Look, Al Q does to great effect ( remember how they have openly influenced voting in Spain and Italy ).

Listen Israel, give me some flyers and I shall willingly distribute them for you!

Big Bob

Sure Adam, I'll explain. You're basically looking at a picture of a 1st century Tora Bora. Unless you buy the propaganda, that is.

Adam F

Matt Pryor. Why I think that the battle may be lost already is that speaking with my fellow students, who as I have stayed at university so long are younger than myself, is that they have been so indoctrinated by the vitriolic media environment that their hostility to Israel is by now second nature.

Why there is this media attitude is an interesting question, partly I believe that it is pragmatic the Arab world being an important market, also I ask myself 'who would I rather upset someone like me (a zionist) who will write a polite letter or may even phone, or someone who would express themselves more strongly (shall we say). Then of course there is a hostility towards the nation-state in general in some circles and a deep dislike for America.
I really hope that the battle is not lost, but its easy to get depressed.

Simon (aka pk) UK

C Gee
I really have to ask..what is "growing in favour"?
A sneak attack on a sovereign state by the US?
Israel is massively powerful militarily.
It has so many patriot batteries it can use them for air defence (their original role)
It has the only functioning strategic ABM system in the world.
It has the 2nd largest F 16 fleet in the world.
It has the Python 5 AAM the worlds best.
Most of its AF facilities are VERY hardened targets, far better than anything seen in GW1
It has a massive and varied nuclear arsenal, with weapons ranging from 1 mt city busters on true ICBMS down to 2kt artillery shells.
It has neutron weapons.
It has submarines armed with nuclear cruise missiles.
I think such an "option" would end up with mr Zbrzeneszki et al in Fort Levenworth, awaiting execution for war crimes.

Dixon

"Big Bob
March 19th, 2010 6:44pm
Sure Adam, I'll explain. You're basically looking at a picture of a 1st century Tora Bora. Unless you buy the propaganda, that is."

Sounds like "Big" Bob is the one that "bought the propoganda". Bow down to Bob Fisk five times a day does he?

Simon (aka pk) UK

Obviously Josephus "The Jewish war" is more Zionist agit prop to old "big Bob".
Nice attempt at delegitimisation. Failed.

John from Toronto

Everyone talks about the all powerful Israel lobby. This is nonsense and if anyone ever looked at the power and reach of the Arab petro-dollar lobby they would be amazed. How else to explain the hijacking of the UN by the OIC and Arab League and the re-writing of the narrative of the Middle East?

Where are Walt and Mearsheimer when you need them?

Darwin Akbar

I concur with some others here that the American people overwhelmingly support Israel. Moreover, they are also beginning to wake up from the fog of Hope and Change and understand the true nature of this Obama and his band of liars, incompetents and fools. The real question is whether there is ANYTHING that will shake American Jews out of their support for Obama and his Democrat enablers. Did not Aaron say to Moses that the builders of the Golden Calf were "pig-headed"?

On the positive side, Abe Foxman of the ADL recently took a break from attacking Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh (two of the strongest supporters of Israel in the US) to speak out against the Obama administration ...so maybe there's hope.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Big(oted)Bob also conveniently overlooks the archaeological evidence of the stand against the Romans at Masada, excavated by the late Professor Yigael Yadin and exhibited here in the UK during the 1960s... but then what can you expect from those here who want to bring the Jewish state down. Their parents and/or grandparents were of a generation that so frequently urged Jews here to "go back to Palestine where you belong!".

Zsa Zsa

Melanie,

Have you heard from Alan Dershowitz lately? Seems he was sure his "good leader" obama would never turn on Israel in such a manner.

Baron Pippin II

What the one who can walk on water unleashed by kicking Israel can be interpreted as either atavistically naïve or sinister beyond belief. The major and the only stumbling block to lasting peace in the Middle East is Hamas with its insane policy of Israel’s extermination. To remove Hamas or the policy would require a regime change of Hamas backers, something that Obama has no intention of pursuing. If anything, he seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

For Israel to give up more territory, or make more concessions of whatever form, would be akin to the Western Powers sacrificing Czechoslovakia to Hitler. One cannot appease a totalitarian regime, whose key aim is to dominate through annihilation of other races or religious creeds. A simple truth derived from recent history that the brilliant community organiser doesn’t seem able to comprehend.

Adam B.

Big Bob, you haven't explained anything.

What propaganda? On what do you base your assertion that it is a myth? Sarcastic remarks motivated by bigotry won't do.

Augustus

In case anyone is interested, this latest Hamas rocket attack in which a Thai worker was killed, was the 300th time since Operation Cast Lead that rockets have been fired on Israel. And in case anyone's interested, at the beginning of the year the Iranian government
handed $400m to the Lebanese terror group Hezbollah. A few weeks ago the Iranian counterfeit president Ahmadinejad was in Damascus where he had an important meeting with the leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah. A little later these same terrorist leaders, together with other Palestinian terror groups, went to Tehran to meet Ayatollah Khameini.

So what does the Islamic regime want of these terror groups? To wage a war on Israel on two fronts: Lebanon and Gaza. Why?
Because then world focus will be on Israel and not Iran. Iran
is hoping its terrorist friends will set up a confrontation with Israel, mainly in order to sabotage any peace negotiations
because it suits their own political ends.

Yesterday Obama had an interview
with Fox News in which he talked about his health plan. After that he spoke about Israel
and said that America had special ties with Israel. He then added that Iran was the biggest problem in the ME. And that when Iran possesses nuclear weapons it will constitute a serious threat to the national security of the United States. The Western media should stop ballyhooing about the Palestinians and start
concentrating more on the real fox in the chicken house.

Adam B.

Isn't it nice that the Israel bashers attract people like Big Bob - people intent on denying Jewish history altogether?

Charming.

Dixon

Just a couple of academic queries Simon. They dont change the gist of your comment. But why dont you count the Alaska based interceptors as an operational ABM system. After all, theyve been operational for several years now? They recently demonstrated their ability in an exercise off the Pacific coast to not only acquire, track and intercept ballistic missiles fired without warning but actually tracked and intercepted a fragment of the debris created that the system automatically identified as potentially the warhead. A very impressive performance. And what about the Standard 2 missile systems deployed on USN cruisers? The one that shot down a sattelite a year or two back. A system that is now deployed to the waters of the mid-east and which has been on joint exercise with the Israelis.

And BTW, the second ABM system around Moscow, replacing the first in the 1970's is still operational ( for what its worth ). Of course the first US ABM systems were a strategic one at a base in CONUS and the 25,000 Nike missiles, many nuclear armed, deployed throughout Europe.

Given just how many ABM systems have been deployed over the years and proven effective, its absolutely hilarious how the Anglo-American idiocracy insist on saying that they are technically unfeasible! A clear case of the divergence of the media-leftist conception of the world from practical reality.

Michael B

"Commenting on the Obama/Israel crisis, Ed Lasky concludes that the US President is deliberately trying to turn America against Israel – and he is succeeding."

Of course he is succeeding, his cult of personality, his demagoguery, his machinations and subversive duplicity, etc., etc. are being leveraged for all they are worth.

Hellllooo-o, America?!?!

It's not working for all of America, not remotely so, but there are such things as tipping points, there are such things as critical/pivotal levels of disinformation, etc., all of which can have effect in the real world.

The primary question that remains is, will enough people in the U.S. and elsewhere wake-up before that tipping point, that critical level, is reached.

Simon (aka pk) UK

Thats true Dixon especially the 60s deployment of Nike, and the ABMs around Moscow.
I think my point is that with Israels small geographic size, it is for the first time possible to have a nation fully covered by ABMs. 3 batteries of Arrow 3 is considered I believe, the optimum. Of course Arrow could be nuclear tipped, far increasing their effectiveness, and Arrow 3 is configured for MIRV targets, or it is at least an aim.
The problem with Aegis is that it has to be deployed by ship, to zones of interception, taking time. It can never be more than an ad hoc. Thaad I am not sure of.

James Pawlak

For awhile I thought that Mr. Obama was a secrete Muslim based on his "sucking up" to Muslims. Of course, I now realize that he worships only himself.

Bob from Virginia

Mel, sometimes you remind me of the famous Jewish telegram "start worrying, details follow". If the American public could they would elect Netanyahu President and throw out Obama. And I assure you it would be a landslide.

Dixon

Simon, I had a hunch thats what you meant. And of course, as I mentioned before, technological know-how developed in Arrow is being exported to the US. This is another of those facts that conflicts with the left narrative of an Israel dependent upon US technology. I believe its simply not true.Indeed, most of the US weapons in Israeli service ( such as the F16 ) are long in the tooth, and some of it ( M60 tanks ) would be obsolete but for Israeli ingenuity at updating things. Their own weapons ( Tavor rifles or Merkava tanks ) are variously superior to or more locally apropriate than their US equivalents.

Well, Im certainly no expert on these things, but even I can see that the representation we are given in the mainstream media is very different from the reality revealed by specialist sources.

What you say about aegis standard 2 ABM illustrates another of these weird dissociations between the left-media narrative and reality: the mid range interceptors for the Czchech republic which caused such brouhaha were cancelled by obama and the story ended...but he also approved a plan to deploy much larger numbers of a land-based version of the Standard 2 to central Europe instead. We've heard nothing about that in the MSM. Nor do we herar anything of the plan to deploy hundreds of THAADS missiles to cover all of Western Europe. Its very curious how little the mainstream media actually reports of such things and how selective they are about it.

davod

Russia Iran (and the USA) training and arming Israel's enemies. USA witholding weapons to Israel (Guided aerial bombs diverted to Diego Garcia). Soon the USA will remove its stockpiles from Israel.

Where have I seen this played out before?

Diana from Australia

I also had the same thoughts as those who suggested Israel needs to look for new allies. I also first thought of Russia but of course that is no good as their foothold in the Middle East is Iran. I then thought and immediately of course rejected China (with friends like that etc). The only major player that would not be likely to dump on Israel would be India but they don't have as much clout as the other nuclear powers and they do feel pretty isolated at the moment themselves.

Please don't count on Australian support for Israel for too much longer under the Labor government. Not that we are a major world player but we have always been a loyal friend of Israel. However that is changing rapidly and the media, intellectual and so called 'chattering' classes here are extremely anti Israel. Only recently a journalist from a (the) major Sydney newspaper turned his back and walked away from me saying he refused to talk to anyone who was so immoral as to be a supporter of Israel. As far as he was concerned there was no justification at all for the existence of a Jewish state.

Our local Jewish newspaper, on the other hand, thinks Obama will be satisfied if he effects 'regime change' in Israel by getting rid of Netanyahu. And many of our Jewish journalists are so left wing that they think they therefore have nothing to worry about from Obama as he would obviously be much more favourable to a left wing Israeli government (problem solved from their perspective).

Aurelian

This uninvolved Englishman remains entirely pro-Israel and does not buy into the Palestinian fantasy for one second.

Marcus from the USA

What "Palestinian fantasy" would that be Aurelian???

Perhaps the fantasy of a native people to have their property and their homeland as theirs?

Maybe the people of the Middle East might have some delusional belief that they have the right to decide the fate and destiny of their part of the world and not America, Britain, and the West.

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English and France to the French".
- Mahatma Gandhi

Adam F

Hi Diana from Australia, While I admit that both Russia and China have problems as possible allies I think that they are both worth consideration.

Russia: There is now a not inconsiderable Russian speaking segment of Israeli society and there are cultural links. Whilst it is true that Russia has links with Iran they might feel that having Israel instead would be in their interests. (They are not depend on external gas and oil after all.)

China: There are clear advantages to both sides, Israel as a leader in computers and electronics could work well with a mass-producing country like China. There are military advances to both sides also. (There is also no history of antisemitism in China (not to mention their own problems with Islamic terror, albeit a small one.) China is also going to be increasingly involved with power-plays with the US and becoming a more important ally of Israel would fit into this. A

Both these possibilities should be investigated. I would incline towards the China option. I also think that the very fact of looking at it would produce interesting results.

As you say India is a india is also an option.

Mladen Andrijasevic

I would suggest that the AIPAC conference starting on Sunday invite Bernard Lewis so that he could in front of thousands of delegates explain the lethal flaws of the Obama administration's approach to Iran. His view on the ineffectiveness of mutual assured destruction with regards to Iran must become common knowledge if we want the American people to realize what is going on.

Here is what Bernard Lewis says:

“In this context, mutual assured destruction, the deterrent that worked so well during the Cold War, would have no meaning. At the end of time, there will be general destruction anyway. What will matter will be the final destination of the dead--hell for the infidels, and heaven for the believers. For people with this mindset, MAD [mutual assured destruction] is not a constraint; it is an inducement.”

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008768

With this in mind, Alan Dershowiz should clarify whether he supports Obama in his de facto declaring Israel expendable with Obama’s insistence that Israel not launch a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites.

I am quite aware that in the next few days everyone will concentrate on the passage of the Obama health care plan. However important that may be , the prospect of a Iran going nuclear and attacking Israel in spite of MAD is real and much more important.

Big Bob

Adam, questions, questions, questions,...

I'm presuming that you (or an adult helper) know how to do a Google search. So do that for "Masada Myth". Go to the first item on the list, an article by an eminent professor at the Hebrew University. It explains everything.

Simon (aka pk) UK

Why myth? Why not just Masada?
"Israeli Professors" are not the answer to everything. Especially if they are researching advanced delegitimisation.
There are too many of them as it is.

Adam B.

Marcus from the USA.

Gandhi also said that it was immoral for the Jews to resist the Nazis. Do you believe that too?

I love these quotes - it's as if everything certain people utter are beyond any kind of reproach.

Do you think the Jews are entitled to self-determination in their own homeland? The reason I ask is to establish your motive here - do you think Israel has a right to exist at all? I look forward to your answer.

Adam B.

Big Bob

There are academics who also claim that the Holocaust is a lie. Perhaps if you were grown up, you would read more than one source. Art least try - it may give your bigotry a veneer of sophistication.

Yours is the perfect example of the lies to which Melanie refers.

Groovy Times

Big Bob, you'll find the Protocols of the Elders of Zion on the internet too, as well as past copies of Der Sturmer. There's plenty on the menu to satisfy your insatiable appetite for Jew-baiting, but my culinary advice would be to take it all with a pinch of salt.

Larry in Tel Aviv

Melanie well said but whatever Bibi says, IF he were to speak truth to power, would be simply ignored by the MSM or they would just lie about what he said, that's all.

Melanie heard anything from Dershowitz the Obama supporter re Obama's latest irrational Israel bashing? Let's see him try and squeeze his way out of this one.

Dixon

Big Bob...I guess you also believe the Lunar Landings were a hoaxe...No, well cant you ise Google man, look up "Lunar landings Myth"

And I guess, Bob, you realise that the Queen is the wordlds biggest drug barton, thats true too...on the internet. Look it up on Google wont you!

I take it for granted you just KNOW that the Americans have captured aliens working for them at Roswell...Google "free the Roswell ETs" or are you already a member....sorry, forgot, you are already signed up to everything you read on the internet!

Oh, and those pyramids are an optical illusion, there are plenty more of these where you are coming from.

sleeping dolls

Very interesting response to the fact that the free world (such as it is) finds much to criticize in the Israeli approach. Having dipped into this blog regularly over the last year or two, I'm not remotely surprised many of you would be comfortable to replace these "open" friendships with non judgemental "support" from Russia and China. Good luck. I'm sure you'll feel at home with your new friends.

PW Virginia USA

Marcus...you are obviously ignorant of a thing called a census...the census figures from the 1920-1930 show that the vast majority of the Arabs came from outside the "Mandate" far from being indigenous they are immigrants looking for work and a better life under the British and also work in the growing agricultural sector being developed by the Jews...read a little and find that in the 1850-1870's there were vast empty areas, that Arabs villages were small and far apart...this claim you of being the indigenous people of the "Land" is propaganda spewed out by the Arabs and willingly swallowed by yourself...by the way a Jewish majority has been in Jerusalem since 1840...

Dixon

"davod
March 20th, 2010 7:29am
Russia Iran (and the USA) training and arming Israel's enemies. USA witholding weapons to Israel (Guided aerial bombs diverted to Diego Garcia). Soon the USA will remove its stockpiles from Israel."

Actually, I read about that too on Jihad watch. But, however much I approve Robert Spencer and the thrust of his ( and your ) points, that story has been misrepresented. The bombs in question were never going to the Israeli forces in any case. They had been scheduled to go to forward stockpiles belonging to US forces, LOCATED in Israel. Not for IDF use. Moreover, as they are described as laser guided I very much doubt that they are genuine "bunker busters", a term accurately reserved for a small number of outsized ( circa 30,000 lb ) ground penetrating weapons that, as far as I recall, are GPS guided.

I dont think Israel even posseses combat ( as opposed to transport ) aircraft capable of carrying such a weapon. They are designed for B52, B2 and possibly B1 bombers.

The problem is, "gilding the lilly" doesnt help. If you exaggerate evidence you create opportunities for critics to use its weakness as a "straw man" to knock down easily. I think this has happenned with that particular headline story.

On the other hand, Israel was denied the option of buying ground penetrating weapons years ago, under Bush.

I expect that by now they have developed their own.

William

Israel will survive as long as it can escalate the cost of killing Jews beyond what the Arabs (and the West) want to pay.

Penny

I've long felt that Israel needs to smarten up in terms of the mis-information that has gained so much ground over time.

Marcus, it seems to me that you have either huge gaps in your knowledge or you simply aren't interested in facts. It is honestly hard to tell these days.

Incidentally, what is your view of the near-million Jews expelled from Arab lands post-1948? Is it your view that they should be compensated and allowed to return? Or is it your view, perhaps, that they should adopt a similar strategy to the Palestinian Arabs and refuse every offer made whilst simultaneously declaring their intent to wipe those lands from which they were expelled off the map, maintiaining refugee status ad infinitum and waging war by whatever means necessary?

Although I should add that, unlike the Middle Eastern Jews who mostly fled to Israel, no Palestinian was 'expelled'. They went either on their own accord or because the war - caused by the five surrounding Arab nations - was encroaching on them. This is self-evident by the Israeli Arab population who stayed and now make up 20% of Israel's population. What will happen to them if Hamas et al have their way? It is likely they would be seen as traitors.

Israel didn't start the 1948 war and, had they lost, it is doubtful that the Palestinian Arabs would ever have been allowed self-determination. Those invading Arab armies didn't wage war in support of a few hundred thousand Palestinian Arabs but wth a view to sharing the spoils.

Is it also your view that, from 1948 - 1967, Jordan and Egypt's occupation of West Bank and Sinai (land given to the Palestinians in the partition)which went largely unremarked on all sides - was merely 'annexation' and 'administration'? Is it only Israel that 'occupies'?

Oh - and should Pakistan, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi and Afghanistan declare themselves non-countres - since all of them were created after the carve-up of the Middle East by the British and the French? Palestine was just one such country. Should Cyprus - partitioned into the North, Turkish Cypriots and the South Greek Cypriots in 1970's similarly be de-ligitimised?

You see - there are many other countries, recently formed or partitioned, but, of course, they pass unremarked.

Alan Meyer

Thank you Dear Melanie,

Your blog slowly became one of my sources of daily news!

C. Gee

Marcus from the USA:

Property is one thing. It may be, or have been, a home.
A "homeland" is another thing. Having owned, or claiming to own, a property does not confer it, or adjacent land, with the status of national territory.

john Norman

We are being told that the good ol' US of A is turning towards the Pacific and India as the coming new world powers. Let Israel do the same then: check in with China, India and Russia. The US is now no longer reliable. There is no point in being idealistic, let's play Machievellism and hard ball.

Simon (aka pk) UK

Dixon.
A 10,000 lb penetrator bomb (of which the IDF have stocks) tipped with a .5 kltn warhead would penetrate several hundred metres of bedrock.
The F15I could easily carry one each, and a full complement of 8 AAMs
That would not be use of a nuclear weapon in a WMD guise, it would be purely for demolition, and thus very easy to justify legally.

Austin Barry

The West is in a fight to the death with radical Islam. Part of its strategy is to pay tribute to Islam, to pay the the Danegeld, which disgracefully is the political and geographic integrity of Israel.

Simon (aka pk) UK

Good post Penny :)
Also remember the infamous Arab "evacuate now" broadcasts, from Amman and Cairo, urging immediate evacuation of arab areas, "until the glorious arab armies drive the Jews into the sea"
This deliberate mass panic induced by the Arabs,and so terribly backfiring has been conviently airbrushed from the palestinian "narrative"
Tha Arab states created the "refugee" pheonemon, and it should be mercilessly exposed by Israel in the UN.

Nachman

To that poster who mentioned difficulty postinmg on the Times On line I agree last week I posted a respopnse to a particularly vicious and anti-Semitic post - my post was not abusive just pointing out the facts. My contribution was not posted. I protested to the moderator and received no response - maybe they have hired a moderator from from the Guardian's Cif to moderate their posts too?

Simon (aka pk) UK

John Norman
I disagree, at least at this point.
Sure developments with india are looking especially favourable, considering Indias struggle with Jihad.
I would also expect a much increased defence cooperation with Nigeria, the potential black African giant. Remember Biafra, its airbrushed subtext was defence against Islamic fostered Jihad in that area of the country.. Israel was the only nation to openly support Biafra in its heroic struggle.
The main point is that Obama is a one term bad memory.
The Republican encumbent (I hope its a wiser and better prepared Palin) will usher in a new golden age of U.S Israeli relations, including an explicit miltary cooperation around the M.E. and be a true model of American interests.
I am convinced (even as a cynical Brit) that Israel has the majority of support in the right thinking population of the US and Britain. And much of Europe too.
Also remember, Geert Wilders will be PM of Holland by next spring :) A brave man, viciously represented by the dhimmified MSM.

Stefcho

Thank you, Melanie. Yes, Israel does deserve our support.

blue_&_white_avenger

Dixon - hi - just to add to what you were saying about Israel equipment: they can & did produce excellent stuff - especially avionics which give the F15/16 much better capabilities than anyone else has.
Additionally, the $2.8M that USA gives them in aid is often counter-productive: they were producing excellent APCs but the factory closed 'cos the US supplied these as part of its overall support; even Israel tank crews receive US aid in the form of "U" certified rations!

Augustus

It stands to reason that America's shaming of Israel pleases the Arabs, even its allies like Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Public humiliation of an ally can only earn contempt. Differences should be resolved in quiet consultation. The Obama administration has blundered, and jeopardized not only Israel's stature, but also
its own regional interests and the Pax Americana that has been in place for four decades. America's authority in the region depends on every actor knowing that it backs Israel to the hilt. Anything else sends a message that the US backed order is ready to be tested. And there is a strengthening axis of resistance willing and able to do just that: A Middle East without American influence.
From the perspective of the adversaries, victory will go not to the smartest, or the strongest, but to those who do not hesitate to impose their will on the world in order to reshape it to their liking, and America will play a secondary role at best. Obama may not be intentionally trying to sacrifice America's position in the energy-rich and strategically vital ME, but his policies might well lead to that. If Obama is too weak to show the neighbourhood tough guys that he means business, it will indeed be up to Israel to go over his head and do it for him.

Peter T

Diplomacy always involves some form of compromise and compromise is a form of appeasement and appeasement is akin to paying Danegeld. I am sure that Israel, unlike Britain, is aware of this and I do not regard Israel is an appeaser. I consider Israelis to be realists. LOng may they be so.

Truthtriumphs

The JC article was excellent.
Have you taken issue yet with your editor at the JC, Stephen Pollard, who wrote a lamentably poor defence of the Israeli position on CiF on Friday?
He further said on the comments section following the article (at about 1pm.on Friday) that he has always maintained that the settements are wrong, morally, practically and politically, and believes that Jerusalem should be under international jurisdiction (God help us!).
And this from the editor of the supposedly foremost Jewish newspaper in the UK, purportedly defending Israel's best interests.
Oh, silly me! I forgot, he's burnishing his liberal credentials for his next job as editor of one of the UK's proper newspapers--- he can wait!!
If that's the view of the editor of the JC, what do you expect of the president of the US?

Dixon

"Simon (aka pk) UK
March 20th, 2010 6:51pm
Dixon.
A 10,000 lb penetrator bomb (of which the IDF have stocks) tipped with a .5 kltn warhead would penetrate several hundred metres of bedrock.
The F15I could easily carry one each, and a full complement of 8 AAMs
That would not be use of a nuclear weapon in a WMD guise, it would be purely for demolition, and thus very easy to justify legally."

That sounds fine to me. The thrust of my comment was thatv the bombs being diverted to Diego Garcia weren't actually destined for the Israeli forces anyway but forward preposition at a US base.

Raymond in DC

Much as I would like to believe otherwise, it appears that Netanyahu is not strong enough to resist US pressure. Israel's Ynet is already reporting that Netanyahu has "caved" to US demands to slow construction in eastern Jerusalem, to discuss "core" issues in those proximity talks, to ease the blockade of the Gaza Strip (no demand to Egypt to do likewise), and to release prisoners to "strengthen" Abbas.

Friends of old have one by one abandoned Israel, falling under the spell of Arab oil and the Palestinian narrative. It doesn't yet know how to respond when even the US pushes it around.

Israel has, meantime, refrained from properly making its case that it has historic and legal claims too, not to mention interests, as all states do. If it won't make clear that it will defend them, even against an unfriendly US administration, I fear all will be lost.

john Norman

Simon UK

In the Wilderness in America

Melanie, terrific article. Spells out the Hobsean choices that Netanyahu has before him and the one truthful path he must take beyond the anti-Semitic American and European and British governments.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Raymond in DC, I fear that you are right about Netanyahu. For a time it really looked as though he would give and maintain the stiff finger to Obama. Bowing to pressure from the big bully boys never pays. Better to take one's chances. Unfortunately,we(Jews)do not seem to learn the lessons of history.

Adam F

In the Wilderness in America:

I don't believe that the American government is antisemitic, I just think that President Obama is a little naive.
A British statesman, I think it may have been Lord Palmerston said something along the lines of "Nations have no permanent friends only permanent interests'

It may well be that Obama feels that America's permanent interests are best served by cooling her relationship with Israel. All I can say is that Israel should demonstrate that that is not the case. But that she should, at the same time, keep the same dictum in mind herself.

Henry Sidgwick

PW Virginia USA
March 20th, 2010 3:11pm
I would be interested in what the sources are for your statements about the population of Palestine. Could I refer you to a book by J. McCarthy, The Population of Palestine: Population Statistics of the Late Ottoman Period and the Mandate, published by the Columbia University Press. I think you will find the facts not quite as you state them.

Simon (aka pk) UK

Thats right Dixon. Never heard of those penetrators being destined for the IDFAF inventory.

Aurelian

This uninvolved Englishman would like to make some general points about the forming of ones opinions.

Check your sources.
Ask yourself: who's talking and what's their agenda? Remember that the images we see on our television screens are selected -- this is how narratives are constructed and delivered. A true fact can be selected and deployed to support an untruthful contention.
Consensus, repetition, sincerity, emphasis ... none of these guarantee truth or indeed have any bearing on it whatsoever.

Check your own reactions.
Do they make you feel good about yourself? Are you indulging in self-righteous anger? Are you being played?

Most of us actually have no sources of first-hand information at all. It is important to remember this when forming an opinion.

This is why the uninvolved should mind their own business, which is what this uninvolved Englishman, with apologies for prolixity, will now proceed to do.

Simon (aka pk) UK

So what are the "facts" Henry?
Do tell.

C. Gee

Aurelian:

The sincerely "uninvolved Englishman" would be second best for Israel. But how do we distinguish between that man and jesting Pilate who asked What is truth? - but would not stay for an answer?

logdon

Obama attended Jeremiah Wright's antisemitic church for twenty years.

Obama was raised as a Muslim.

Obama descibes America as a non Christian nation.

Obama brags of Islam being a key faith of America.

Obama bows and scrapes to Arabs.

Obama praises Islam in the Cairo speech completely ignoring the reality of the global jihad.

Obama is now overly alienating Israel with this fabricated attack.

Conclusion? That he's an extremist marxist muslim wouldn't be too far off the mark.

The US is going through paroxisms of rage as he rips up the Constitution and breaks all rules to get his healthcare package through.

Obama will be toast come the mid term elections. Most likely he'll be removed after the huge Democrat losses.

Israel has to hang in. He'll be gone. But what about the Arabs? And this intifada?

Another Cast Lead but this time finish the job. This is war.

Retake Gaza. Retake the West Bank. Clamp down just as Muslims do with Jews across the Middle East.

World media especially Bowen and the BBC complain? Expel them.

This is now a matter of survival.

john Norman

Simon UK: a number of US actions should still stick in our gullets. The US wrecking the prospects of the Lavi fighter, potentially a world-beating performer.The US scuppering Israeli sales of the much improved Falcon to China. Keeping Pollard in jail on a life-sentence whilst leaking murderous jihadists out into the population. My question: who is losing Israel, the only real democracy in the ME, for the West. President Obama and VP Biden?

Simon (aka pk) UK

John
This is the price of highly partisan, often unreliable U.S "support"
Its not just Israel. Read how the US finally crippled the United Kingdom as an independent player post 1945. The desperate humiliating negotiations between JM Keynes and the treasury delegation in 1947, for a life or death loan, that the UK finally finished paying under Blair in 2005.
its nothing new. The U.S has and does, still determine to be top. It will be interesting to see this play out vis a vis China, in the coming decades.

Paul

The real tragedy here is that our education system has produced a bunch of morons. People need to read history not just swallow the spin put on it by parties with an axe to grind. Even the so called elite seem to just swallow what is clearly rubbish and half truths. There seems to be a lack of intellectual rigour and discipline when it comes to forming an opinion. It seems we prefer an easy soundbite to have an easy life and not overstretch ourselves too much. You can see this in all walks especially politics where we are feed a continuous stream of spun lies and half truths. The educationalists today have a lot to answer for - still I forgot they are brainwashed too!!

Aurelian

@C. Gee on March 21st, 2010 5:28 pm
Thank you for "sincerely".
Pilate was there and in a position of authority.
The definition of truth does not perplex me.

A more serviceable question is, "Are these lies?". The prevalence of mendacity means that an affirmative response is seldom wrong.

Henry Sidgwick

Simon (aka pk) UK
March 21st, 2010 4:57pm
I suggest you follow up the reference. Scholars have made conscientious efforts to establish from the historical record what the facts are most likely to be. We should surely make the effort to consult them. They proceed by way of controversy in the course of which some things become more firmly established and others become more tenuous. It requires more effort consulting them, but is better than relying on propaganda manuals.

Philo

The US sought a cessation of settlement building beyond the Green Line. Israel refused, but proposed a pause of a few months. The US acquiesced. Israel continued with some building. The US winked at it. Israel said the pause should not include any of the parts of Jerusalem beyond the Green Line. The US winked at it. Israel announced new building just when the VP was in town. The US threw a hissy fit of pique and embarrassment at this display of truculence. Israel and the US are now talking again.

It all sheds light on at least one thing: the settlement of Jerusalem. Very little of the growth of Jerusalem appears to have been to the West. Most all of it has been to the North and East, beyond the Green Line. None of it has been for Palestinians. In other words the settlements in Jerusalem have the same status as the settlements on the West Bank.

The burst of apocalyptic hyperbole and paranoiac hysteria has been a wonder to behold. Abe Foxman, that moral compass, has been shocked, SHOCKED. All states use propaganda, which can get shrill. The propaganda is produced by academia and the fourth estate. I can never quite comprehend how they square their self image as seekers after the truth with such "telling of the truth".

Simon (aka pk) UK

Then I shall.

Edward Benson

This is depressing stuff. There comes a point in all protacted disputes like this when both sides have such deeply embedded grievances that the original causes are almost irrelevant. Whatever the rights and wrongs, all the individual on either side knows is that your bombs killed my father, or your guns killed my mother. No one is ever going to hold their hands up and say, ok, you have a point, you were right to kill my family.

The only way forward is to broker some kind of messy, morally unsatisfactory compromise that involves both sides agreeing to shake hands with the people who once wished them dead. This isn't about one side eventually winning the argument, but about both sides coming to a well-policed compromise and slowly, over generations, moving on.

For all that they make great copy, morally absolutist positions on either side won't lead anywhere.

George

@Edward Benson March 22nd, 2010 5:37pm "The only way forward is to broker some kind of messy, morally unsatisfactory compromise that involves both sides agreeing to shake hands with the people who once wished them dead."

You are totally correct. Unfortunately, there is only one side willing to shake hands. The other side still wishes them dead. Until the other side becomes willing to shake hands, there is no point in negotiations of any kind.

Adam B.

Philo, the so-called "green line" is meaningless. Some of what you call settlemets are built on land bought by Jews before the state of Israel even existed. The Jews were ethnically cleansed by the Jordanians and Palestinian Arabs in 1948.

Israel had made it clear from the outset that their pause in building did not include Jerusalem. Nor should it.

Gil

Henry Sidgwick, if you want to turn the clock back and start examining facts or assumptions to deny the Jewish claim to Palestine then you should be consistent and apply your views to every country in the world that has had immigrant population.

Until then, whatever you say on the matter is tinged with the worst sort of bias.

Jews have had a claim to Palestine 'From Time Immemorial'
(Joan Peters) the best book on the topic.

Henry Sidgwick

Gil
March 23rd, 2010 7:56am
There is a peace deal to be done and the negotiations can start with the Green Line, as has been proposed by the UN, Arab states, Muslim states, the EU, Russia...

Joan Peters' book is controversial. Scholars who have devoted their careers to the matters she presumes to pronounce on warn that it is a fraud. It is surprising that you cite it as an authority.

You say that Jews have a claim to Palestine, and imply that the Green Line is not a basis for negotiation. I would be interested to know what you think of the claim of the Palestinians to Palestine and where you propose to keep them while Israel settles East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

I agree with you that immigrant populations can cause problems for indigenous populations or can assimilate or can reach a modus vivendi. I agree that the European conquest and genocide in the Americas, for example, is an atrocious crime. All that follows is that Israel and the Palestinians have an opportunity even at this late stage to reach a peaceful accomodation.

Gil

Henry, I'm pleased to see that you are implying that the United Nations should deal with the wrongs of the USA, Sudan, Australia, Turkey, Britain etc. etc. Indeed, we could bring to life Jay Rayner's novel and have a 'sorry' conference where all nations apologise to each other.

I sincerely hope that Israel and the Palestinians can reach an accommodation. Sadat was brave enough to respond to Begin's offer to withdraw from every inch of Sinai. Unfortunately, he paid with his life because he was murdered by Islamists. Hopefully, the Palestinians can deal with their extremists, Israel deal with its own extremists and that far-away conflict which has been blown out of all proportion to the rest of the problems in the world can finally end.

Then truly, Israel can show the Arab states how to unlock their technological potential for their own benefit and the world's. Israel Palestine could be a model for co-existence in the world.

Be optimistic, Henry.

Henry Sidgwick

Gil
March 23rd, 2010 8:16pm
I am not implying anything about the UN. I do not think your version of the peace negotiations between Israel and Egypt is accurate. The difference between this conflict and many others is not that it has been blown out of proportion but that there is a clear (if not easy by any means) solution. I do agree with the rest of what you say.

Gil

Henry, at first, when I read that you didn't think that my version of the peace negotiations between Israel and Egypt was accurate, I was puzzled. After all, why object to my one short sentence in my above post? I hadn't said anything uncontroversial. Unless of course that you deny that Sadat was murdered by Islamists.

But I know that you know all about that, so it must be something else.

Then I realised that you were looking at it in a colder, more 'realpolitic' manner than I was. That your version of the Egypt-Israel negotiations was this:

Egypt, having relied on the Soviets who proved to be an utter shower in all respects, decided to 'unlock' the US grain silos to feed it's people. But it also wanted the Sinai back. So one move kills two birds with one stone. And Jimmy Carter gets the kudos as a peacemaker. Begin, exploits Sadat's split with Syria and also gains kudos.

Silly Assad stays out of the party and loses out. Canny Hussein stays out - all in the manner of merchants in a souk.

And what about the Arab i.e. Palestinian refugees?

Stabbed in the back again by their Arab 'brethren', like so many times before. Israel, gives up the entire Sinai in return for a piece of paper. And also recognises the rights of the Palestinians in the process.

Hopefully, Obama can reprise Carter.

Trumpeldor

@Simon (aka pk) UK,

It is good to read your answer
I have doubts about Geert Wilder
Not about the man,he is really a great character,in the same league as W Churchill
I am not sure he will achieve the 35 % of votes,mandatory for him to be PM !
I have some hope but the leftist medias are so powerful in Holland ....

Henry Sidgwick

Gil
March 24th, 2010 7:27am
You in turn seem able to read a remarkable amount into my one short sentence. Sadat tried to interest Israel in peace negotiations pretty well from the moment he came to power. Israel (and Kissinger) were not interested, until after the Yom Kippur war. The notion that Egypt responded to a magnanimous offer from Israel does not do justice to the diplomatic record. (As an interesting aside, much the same could be said about negotiations after Israel soundly beat the Arab states in 1948.)

Another phrase which does not do justice to the hisorical record is, "And also recognises the rights of the Palestinians in the process."

I do however share your hope that " Hopefully, the Palestinians can deal with their extremists, Israel deal with its own extremists and that far-away conflict... can finally end.

Then truly, Israel can show the Arab states how to unlock their technological potential for their own benefit and the world's. Israel Palestine could be a model for co-existence in the world."

Paardestaart

What more can anyone say - in heaven's name! - that has not been said a million times? Those who did not then and do not now hear, see, and understand the truth about what has happened and is still happening to the jews and to Israel are willingly and deliberately beyond reach..
Israel has missed the only window of opportunity ever open to her in '67..
Now everything it does is wrong, and Israel will be blamed if it does and blamed if it doesn't. Therefore it should now simply do what has to be done, and heaven help us all.
America under the aegis of cryptoccommunist fools has become just one of the many fickle players on the world stage, and will do what it feels it has to do
Let's hope the west realizes in time where it's interests lie, and who his relatives are. If it doesn't - if it really wants to be politically correct more than it wants to live and prosper, then let it die, and G*d save Israel

Yosef

This is perhaps the most outstanding article on this topic I have ever read. Thank you and bravo for articulating the so often obfuscated reality with such refreshing clarity!

Davidka

Melanie's article is incisive, indeed it understates the problem. I have followed B.O.'s career for many years and from the start he has been sympathetic to Moslems and hostile to Israel, and sponsored by and surrounded by anti-Israel, anti-Jewish people. He is doing everything he can to weaken Israel and weaken ties between the U.S. It's that simple and every act he and his minions take is consistent with that goal. The brutal pressure, the vicious criticism, the puffing up of Israel's enemies, the series of calculated personal insults to Israel's leaders... from the very start of his presidency he has done nothing for Israel and everything to hurt Israel. B.O. is an enemy of Israel. It is that simple.

The best of the suggestions is to go over B.O.'s head. Israel should increase its focus on Congress, which is much more responsive, and it should talk directly to the American people about what is happening and tap the wellspring of decency among our citizens. Of course this will annoy B.O., but B.O. is hostile anyhow and his policy will mean the death of Israel. A 23rd Arab state, carved out of Israel's biblical heartland, especially if connected to Gaza by severing Israel in half (what do you think everyone means when they talk about a "territorially contiguous" Palestinian state), will leave Israel indefensible politically, economically and militarily. You can be sure that when the first rockets lands on Ben Gurion Airport (it will only take one or two) and every foreign air carrier cuts off flights, B.O. will not be there to help.

And for heaven's sake, Bibi, speak in plain words and speak of Justice! Call the Arabs, Muslims and anti-Israel elements what they are. Remember that Israel is in the right!

Daniel Lauzaw

This is really not a simple situation. And one day or another, peace will have to be made and for that to happen, both parts will have to be conciliant and willing to live side by side...

Scrabble Cheat