Britain's Israel Derangement Syndrome goes viral

gareth

Correct Melanie - it is no accident that Britain post-Cromwell and the new colonies in America were unusual in accepting Jews as equals and of course - have they both prospered? Even the most wilfull Little Britain redshirt/brownshirt might have trouble spinning a negative lie on that glorious history.

The Leftist 'religion' that hugs anti-western terror so close is false now and always has been - it's no secret.

Peter Crawford

Shocked to hear that Richard Ingrams castigates Israel for seeking to "punish them (Hamas) for daring to launch rockets". Genuinely shocked. This is loonytunes stuff. Ok Ingrams has been mad for a while now but...I don't shock easily...but...

Truthtriumphs

The mirror image to the abuse that CiF allows below the line, under its spurious claim to uphold the principles of freedom of speech, is the posts its moderator(s) delete, for no other reason than that they do not conform to the GWV--- otherwise known as the Guardian World View.
Last week, on March 23, all 5 of my posts were removed from the "Battered Bibi" thread for no other reason than that they were pro-Israel and factually correct.
So much for its adherence to CP Scott's maxim that the voice of opponents has as much right to be heard as that of friends.
It also exposes the hollowness of Matt Seaton's protestations in the JC that CiF is scrupulously fair to both sides in its treatment of the I/P issue.
For goodness sake, it even banned Geoffrey Alderman for a short time, until it dawned on the powers that be there, that such a move would be ridiculed, and would be confirmation of what every fair- minded person knows about the totalitarian mindset of CiF.

Truthtriumphs

Why would anyone pay any attention to the ravings of "Sir" Gerald Kauffman, the MP better known for his fraudulent expenses claims, which included trying to rip off the British taxpayer by asking for, inter alia, a flat screen TV in excess of £7,000, and an antique rug worth almost £2,000 imported from the USA?
So much for this MP's concern for the poor and under-privileged.

Truthtriumphs

The odious Ingrams should be pointed in the direction of Caroline Glick's excellent and revelatory article of March 26, "Israel's unwavering guardsmen", in which she details the theft of millions of dunams of state- owned and privately owned land within the Green Line, during the past decade, by Israel's increasingly radicalised and emboldened Arab and Bedouin minority. Some 150,000 illegally constructed buildings have appeared on these stolen lands, in the North, South and areas outside Jerusalem.
The scope of the theft is so vast that the Comptrollers Report referred to it as a "national scourge".
Very few of these illegal structures have led to demolition orders, and of those only a handful have been carried out.
This is something you will never hear about in Britain's press pertaining to Israel.
Glick writes "Most of the open land in Israel is owned by the state and administered by farmers, ranchers and the IDF. Farmers and ranchers are daily terrorised by neighbouring Arab thieves.
The thieves destroy their fences, steal and slaughter their livestock, and threaten to murder them if they raise any objections, mend their fences or install surveillance cameras.
Many farmers and ranchers- like most business owners around Beersheba and Upper Nazareth- are coerced into paying protection money to the same Arab gangs Arab gangs who target their fields.
And how has the Israeli government responded to this problem? By unanimous cabinet approval of a multi-year programme to transfer 800 million shekels to 12 Bedouin and Arab communities, which the government touted as a "stimulus plan".

Rob-NY

Even a tireless defender of Israel but very liberal Alan Dershowitz is finally having doubts of President Obama's relationship with Israel. Could it be in years to come he will have the same destain for him like he now has for former President Carter?

Aurelian

"In Britain, anti-Israel bigotry and Jew-hatred have gone viral.
Such behaviour shames us all.

Terry, Eilat - Israel

This is but one of the symptoms of a country, a society, on the decline, actually sinking fast, the irrationality of an intellegentsia drowning in a sea of incompetence, corruption, & failure.

Paul

"compare Israel -- whose Arab citizens have equal rights – as an ‘apartheid state’"

Do the Arabs living in the West bank have equal rights? Do they get to vote in Israels elections? Are they free to travel without passes? Or are they a labour force allowed to enter Israel only to do work and then expected to go back to their 'Bantustans' on the West Bank every night.

Either Israel includes the West Bank - in which case there is clearly an apartheid system at work. Or it doesn't - in which case it is occupied territory. Which is it Melanie?

Norm

‘There are long tentacles of Israel in this country who are funding election campaigns and putting money into the British political system for their own ends.’

Change Israel to Unions or Unite and it's just the same.

Julia

I am new-ish to the UK, and grew up in a secular and pretty non-religious country. When I was growing up I didn't know if I knew any Jews at all.
Jewishness just wasn't discussed; it seemed irrelevant.
Zip forward to my arrival in the UK ten years ago. One of my then new colleagues, in a hushed tone with raised eyebrows, told me she thought that another of us new recruits, was Jewish. I didn't know what I was supposed to think, how to react. Since then, I have seen and read more and more of this (to me) unbelievable sort of remark. The comment about the tentacles was shocking. You see, in the meantime I had read more about Jewish history in Europe. Anyone else read "The last of the Just"?

Paul Freeman

Melanie

“Israel Derangement Syndrome” is right: it is a psychological disorder. We should recognize this hatred as only the obverse of, or function of, what really troubles the West at the present time: the fear of Islam. In other words, this derangement is a classic example of mass DISPLACEMENT defined as:

According to Freudian psychoanalytic theory, displacement is when a person shifts his/her impulses from an unacceptable target to a more acceptable or less threatening target. For example, if you are very angry at your teacher because you did poorly on a test…you may become angry at your teacher. But, you obviously can't…hit your teacher…so you go home and "displace" your anger by punching your little brother instead. (AlleyDog.com Glossary)

As long as people feel intimidated by political correctness and the law from expressing their fears of the threat emanating from the Islamic world (accusations of “Islamophobia”); as long as the debate is pushed to the margins with governments denying even the existence of such a threat (as in war on “terror”), Israel and Jews who support it will continue to suffer in the way you describe.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

There are two truths which one should keep sight of here:

One: a huge percentage of those who bash Israel and the Jews will never be convinced to do otherwise, however factual and compelling one's counter arguments.

Two: The UK is profoundly opportunistic when it comes to foreign policy, so the Labour Party may wax and ane on the Israel issue. The EU similarly...

alanadale

Truthtriumphs writes: ‘Last week, on March 23, all 5 of my posts were removed from the "Battered Bibi" [CiF] thread for no other reason than that they were pro-Israel and factually correct.’

Funny I have the same problem in getting my posts posted on this blog. Mine are also factually correct but berate the paranoia that this thread disseminates.

It will be interesting to see if this post sees the light of day - if indeed Truthtriumphs.

Andy Gill

The British establishment have still not forgiven the Jews for the humiliation Britain suffered in Palestine after the war.

The idea that the Jews of all people could defy the British Army and win their freedom still rankles. And Britain's reputation amongst their Arab friends took a nosedive.

Now they think they can assure their safety by attacking Israel and cosying up to the Islamists. Big mistake. The Islamists will reduce Britain to a third-rate also-ran, and you know it's just what this country deserves.

Paul

Antisemitism is an immovable feature in the political landscape of the Left: Socialism goes hand in hand with it, whether it's National Socialism, or International Socialism, or whatever particular strain Kaufman et al and the CIF fanatics subscribe to. Antisemitism among conservatives is negligible by comparison --- zealots like Oborne are (thankfully) unrepresentative of genuine conservatives, both here and on the other side of the Atlantic. Left-wing Jews are, ultimately, like turkeys who vote for Christmas.

Also, I note from the Wikipedia entry on Ingrams that he "plays the organ in his local Anglican church in Aldworth, Berkshire each Sunday". Anglicanism and a deep hatred of Israel go together like scones and jam nowadays. It wasn't always like this. Thank God there are still churches here that don't despise Israel.

"A country that turns on the Jews like this is itself invariably heading over the edge of the cliff."

My reading of the Bible is that The Almighty agrees with you...

moshe moshe

It is very worrying the influence of the Zionist apparatus. These zionist hope to draw a wedge between Britain and one fifth of the worlds population with disastrous consequences. Those that support political Zionism should be charged with treason

AF

A question on last weeks Question Time from Glasgow asked what the panel thought about the terrorist state Israel, there was the usual condemnation of Israel to much applause,no one had the courage to remind them that it was Islamists who attempted to destroy them while they queued at their very own airport,not a jew, Israeli let alone a Mossad agent,and if they are going to get much of the same it will be the good old jihadist once again,will they ever wake up.

AF

A question on last weeks Question Time from Glasgow asked what the panel thought about the terrorist state Israel, there was the usual condemnation of Israel to much applause,no one had the courage to remind them that it was Islamists who attempted to destroy them while they queued at their very own airport,not a jew, Israeli let alone a Mossad agent,and if they are going to get much of the same it will be the good old jihadist once again,will they ever wake up.

Si, N

Alanadale - I know the frustating feeling - I had a total of 8 attempts (excluding 4 pleas to the moderator) to comment on a recent thread censored. Not a word by way of an explanation was offered.

Keith

Messrs Kaufman and Linton omitted to mention how Islamist extremists based at the East London Mosque have infiltrated the Labour Party in Tower Hamlets to achieve their own nefarious ends. Rather inconvenient for Kaufman and Linton methinks!

alanadale

I’m indebted to AF for alerting me to the Question Time question.
He writes: ‘there was the usual condemnation of Israel to much applause,no one had the courage to remind them that it was Islamists who attempted to destroy them while they queued at their very own airport,not a jew,’
Perhaps the Scots dot the ‘i’s and cross the ‘t’s more than the English do and look to the causes of Middle Eastern terrorism: which at heart is the Western Establishment’s tacit support for Israel’s settlement policies.
The Scots have a strong sense of natural justice.

Truthtriumphs

Paul.
You are behind the times.
Business is booming in the West Bank, and it's doubtful whether the Arabs living there would want to leave.
You are economical with the truth, because, as you must well know, Israel withdrew its forces from most of the WB, allowing the PA overall jurisdiction.
What was the result?
Terrorism in the shape of suicide bombing was exported to the benighted citizens of Israel from Jenin and other towns, which became vast munitions depots and bomb making industrial centres, just as happened folowing Israel's withdrawal from Gaza and South Lebanon.
If the Palestinian Arabs would cease to attack innocent Israelis, and rather build up their infrastructure, there would be no need for travel restrictions, etc.

Raoul Schur

Melanie, you are a beacon of light in the medieval darkness of present-day Britain. I get no comfort from any other source on your island.

lwcien

the complete moral bankruptcy of Britain's progressive liberal elite is extremely shocking.
Martin Amis recently at the Institute of Contemporary Arts, the meeting place for what passes for the avant-garde in London -
'That liberals cannot make a stand against a global wave of religious mayhem that is ‘irrationally, misogynist, homophobic, inquisitional, totalitarian, imperialist and genocidal,’ to use Amis’s list, is a moral failure as great as their predecessors’ inability to see Josef Stalin for what he was and offer support to communism’s victims
then he asked-
‘Would all those in the hall who think they are morally superior to the Taliban please raise your hands,’ he asked.
Only a third did.
And here'a culture who throw acid in the faces of women who do not wear the veil, execute teachers for teaching girls to read and write amongst other attrocities
Can you imagine if he had asked 'would all in the hall who think they are morally superior to the Israelis please raise your hands,’

http://nickcohen.net/

phil

Truthtriumphs
April 1st, 2010 1:39am

TT perhaps sir gerald is suffering from dementia causing him to make claims for expenses to which he is not entitled and making him believe that nobody will think he is Jewish if he betrays us ,history would of course prove him wrong .I remember someone making an excuse for a very old man who was appallingly rude and objectionable ,suggesting it was his age ,but I said he was well known to have been the same when he was young -does this ring a bell :)

steve mann

Unfortunately there are too many "Masochistic" Israel bashing Jews- One only has to read the 1500 names on the Jews for Palestine list to know it.
As for Kaufman you must not forget he has a certain "Buying Disorder"- for expensive TVs Grape fruit bowls and rugs at the tax payers expense-
Now that this hand out will no longer be available to him- I wonder whether he will look to his wealthy friends in his constituency for funds?

Jacqueline

What a pitiful country Britain has become. Lets examine its record vis-a-vis the Jews:
The first pogroms happened here. The first expulsion of Jews took place here, before anywhere else.
The first bloodlibel started here and then exported to Europe.
More recently, after the Holocaust Britain barred the doors of Palestine to the pitiful survivors.
And today every boycott, every
divestment, every vicious article or action against Israel is initiated here at the Universities and Trade Unions, and is again exported worldwide.
This government, academics, intellectuals and Lefty activists have joined forces with Moslem extremists and cannot tell the difference between right and wrong, between terrorists and a democratic ally. This is also a sign of a country in trouble that has given up the fight. People have a chance in the forthcoming election to reverse the rot that has set in.
I am getting on now and I am getting tired of fighting. I hope I won't have to say "Told you so!"

Dixon

Im not a Jew but I step into the breach on their behalf. Indeed, if they offered me a post in the IDF Id step into the breeches also!

On the other hand, I know a Jewish girl who had dual UK /Israel citizenship who renounced the latter and surrendered her passport to avoid doing military service. Yet she still spends half her time in Israel! How muddled up and inconsistent is that?

Maybe Israel needs to recruit a "foreign legion" of us older ( fatter ) less fit but enthusiastic gentiles who are willing to go there and fight on their behalf. It might be better than relying on their own misguided young.

That said, at her age I was damned glad Britain had abolished conscription! And I certainly would not fight for this Polity and Country.

Henry Sidgwick

"Truth"triumphs
April 1st, 2010 1:21pm
"Paul.
You are behind the times.
Business is booming in the West Bank, and it's doubtful whether the Arabs living there would want to leave."

It would seem you are incorrigible. Try to recall a previous conversation (and the heap of falsehood and folly you dumped on me then - about Ottoman times, about immigration, and about this "boom"):

"...and in the present day, the West Bank is booming because of Israel's beneficence.

This boom brought to mind a thread from a few weeks back, when others were having an exchange very like ours. I eventually found it:

"This looks eerily like the US neo-colonialist blueprint in use for over a century. Those hugely impressed with the “West Bank boom” celebrated more than once on this blog will be familiar with some features.

There are now two armies in the West Bank. One is under the supervision of the US State Dept. and manned by Palestinians. The other is run by the CIA, under no supervision whatsoever. These armies ensure, by the means standard among militias trained by the US, that Palestinians do not threaten Israel's security while it continues its annexation. In return for their services, the Palestinian forces get a little bit of power and a little bit of wealth. The “international community” ensures that its aid flows through the hands of those in nominal command of the Palestinian forces. Israel relaxes the economic noose to a degree in some urban centres. And lo, we have the prosperity that so impresses propagandists for Israel. There are expensive cars, restaurants, boutiques. Some of the newfound wealth “trickles down” in true new-classical fashion (or more accurately in classical Gangster Capitalism fashion). The world can be persuaded that the Palestinians are quite happy and prosperous in their ghettoes and do not need any of the land and resources Israel has annexed. They do not need a peace agreement: peace already reigns. The consequent immiseration of the bulk of the population is a routine feature of such pacification (as in the Philippines, Haiti, Central America...)."

So much for your boom.

You add an interesting statistic, which I believe you have used before. But tell me, when you add up all the settlements, all the agricultural land, all the military bases and land allocated to the military, the roads and roadblocks,the security areas and areas out of bounds to Palestinians etc. etc. - what percentage of the West Bank does this add up to? And what percentage are Palestinians actually allowed on? And how much of this is contiguous? I see. So, in short, your "statistic" was deliberately misleading."

La Cumparsita

I heard the Jerusalem Quartet at the Menuhin Hall in leafy Surrey a couple of weeks ago. They were warmly received by the audience and played wonderfully. It is so upsetting to read of this bigoted abuse at the Wigmore Hall. Shame on the pro-Palestinian groups who disrupted what would have been a marvellous concert.

Hawkeye

@Truthtriumphs
"Last week, on March 23, all 5 of my posts were removed from the "Battered Bibi" thread for no other reason than that they were pro-Israel and factually correct."

We have a post in your honor.

http://cifwatch.com/2010/03/31/the-truth-will-always-triumph-well-except-on-comment-is-free/

As always Melanie, superb article.

Paul Freeman

alanadale writes:

“Perhaps the Scots dot the ‘i’s and cross the ‘t’s more than the English do and look to the causes of Middle Eastern terrorism: which at heart is the Western Establishment’s tacit support for Israel’s settlement policies.”

Can anyone really believe such nonsense? What, the terrorist attacks in (courtesy of thereligionofpeace.com):

Iraq (11 attacks),

Afghanistan (6 attacks),

Pakistan (6 attacks),

Somalia (2 attacks),

Dagestan (1 attack),

India (1 attack),

Israel (1 attack),

Russia (1 attack),

Thailand (1 attack)

– and that’s just the “successful” ones during THE PAST SEVEN DAYS – all the result of the West’s “tacit support for Israel’s settlement policies”?

What on earth have these countries got to do with the West’s tacit support for anything? And when did the “Western Establishment” offer any kind of support -- tacit or otherwise -- for Israel’s settlement policies?

Melanie, you said it. “Israel Derangement Syndrome” indeed!

Adam B.

No doubt the Israel bashing brigade tink that the Moscow bombing was Israel's fault as well.

Does Russia support Israel? Hardly.

Adam B.

Those who disturbed the Jerusalem Quartet are nothing but bigoted cultural vandals. Disgusting.

Linda Smith

Alanadale posted: "Perhaps the Scots dot the ‘i’s and cross the ‘t’s more than the English do and look to the causes of Middle Eastern terrorism: which at heart is the Western Establishment’s tacit support for Israel’s settlement policies."

Oh well, it is April Fool's Day.

cityca

Melanie, great article. With the clocks going forward to British Summer Time, seems like dozens of crazy people have emerged from under stones to launch the latest wave of attacks on Israel and Jews.

Their behaviour only goes to underline the necessity for the Jewish people to have a state of their own.

It's not as if any of these 'Palestinian supporters' actually care two figs about Palestinian Arabs - their focus is not for PAs, but against Israel, and or Jews.

DIXON
There already is a 'foreign legion' in Israel that takes Jews and Gentiles of all ages to help (with civilian tasks) in the IDF.

I've spent many happy hours working alongside Christians from Norway, Sweden, Ireland, the US, Holland, France, Germany, Hawaii, Belorussia and the UK - it's a great way to show your support, do something useful, and enjoy great cameraderie.

If the Spectator would pass on my email address to you, I'd be happy to tell you about it.

Dave C

I couldn't give two hoots about religion, but am so, so dismayed that the media is so wrong-headed about our democratic ally in the middle East. What can the ordinary man do to support Israel?

Leib

A bit OT, but in reply to Julia, Last of The Just is my favourite book, I get very emotional when I read it.

Stefan

To alandale
If as you say MidEast terrorism is due the problems there, why take it out on Scotland? And if as you say "The Scots have a strong sense of natural justice", why bomb THEM? And why bomb the streets of London; this Government is not pro-Israel, and even if it were, would that make it right? By saying what you do, one can only deduce you condone the bombings. The fact is Islamist terrorism is global and would not go away if there was peace there. I suppose you would blame the outrages in Moscow on Israel too...

Jacqueline

Dear Melanie, Another great article and how well you understand the problems not just the Jews but the whole of the British nation faces. Denial always leads to disaster!

TO DIXON
You can help the IDF with civilians duties and join 'Dad's army' where you will meet like-minded people from all over the world. I have done it many times and apart from getting a lot of satisfaction from it, it helps the morale of the young soldiers who see that not the entire world hates them.
I will leave it to Cityca to give you the details you ask for.
Good luck to you!

Adam B.

Dave C, the ordinary man can take a holiday in Israel, buy Israeli fruit and veg at the supermarket, support Israeli charities and support Israel on blogs like this. That's what I do.

Baboon Jim

Even Stephen Fry, probably Britain's most well-liked Jew, still talks about experiencing anti-Semitism in Britain. Not surprisingly, he feels more at home in America.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Henry Sidgewick wrote:"But tell me, when you add up all the settlements, all the agricultural land, all the military bases and land allocated to the military, the roads and roadblocks,the security areas and areas out of bounds to Palestinians etc. etc. - what percentage of the West Bank does this add up to? And what percentage are Palestinians actually allowed on? And how much of this is contiguous?"

Given the War of extermination waged against the Jews since November 1947, no matter what the answer to your (rhetorical) question, why should Israel care? The Arabs wouldn't. if the situation were reversed.

Even if the boarders delineated in the orignial Partition Plan were accepted by Israel, you believe no significant moslem group would continue to uphold the formally declared aim to wipe out the "Zionist enitity".

Simple questions. If the answer are "no", your question is at best redundant - unless, of course, you concur with that Arab aim - in which case, stop the moralising and get your gun out.

phil

Dixon I have said it before but it is worth repeating .you are a star -I think you have emphasised the difference between the two sides .you want to help by doing something constructive rather than blowing others up or killing yourself along with women and children -An attitude which is such a contrast with the sheriff (alandale)and the ceaseless nonsense from sidgewick .In all the time they have been here the only thing I can find in their favour is they have not advocated the suicide bombers -never a constructive word is posted -what a pair !!

phil

alanadale
April 1st, 2010 1:19pm
----------
Just referring to his ridiculous post ,not requiring any answers from him -but he can try for his own satisfaction to wonder what the causes of the Arab attacks and terrorism were before the settlements -say 1948/1967 when Jews could not even enter East Jerusalem -Maybe if he prefaced all his remarks by saying he hates Jews and Israelis regardless of their actions we would be better able to understand the never ending rubbish he posts-
--------------
He no doubt is ensconced in his pad trying to work out how the Jews managed to commit such an atrocity in Moscow disguised as Islamists ,in fact how their Stamford Hill passports actually got them there in their flying Volvos .

Katie

Personally, being half-Jewish I was particularly peeved off with Gerald Kaufmann's assertion that "right-wing Jewish millionaires own part of the the Tory party." What's more, none of them are relatives - shxx!

Carl

Interesting to see that Israel is now attempting to censor the press:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/journalist-on-the-run-from-israel-is-hiding-in-britain-1934015.html

The Israeli Government is running scared of world opinion.

Katie

Seriously though, criticism of Israel is one thing but I think that Gerald Kaufman comment about 'Jewish millionaires' supposedly controlling the Tory party goes waayy beyond that, and is not only ridiculous but it's also a pretty sick and profoundly disturbing attack on his fellow British citizens who just happen to be Jewish. And, by declining to make any further comment on what he's said he's actually affirmed that he believes in this wacky conspiracy stuff. (btw...I've yet to meet any of these legendary 'Jewish millionaires' - someone please tell me where they all hang out so I can marry one lol;)

I think it's about time we got some ordinary folk in parliament who actually represent sane people - because these repressed, narrow-minded, messed-up blokes in suits are starting to make our country look like a joke to the rest of the world. Maybe, Mr Kaufman should take an extended holiday and shack up with Mel 'I own half of Malibu' Gibson:)

Truthtriumphs

Sidgwick. (alias Philo and Wm.Hazlitt)

As I've told you before, I don't engage with cranks--- life's too short.

In answer to your question, AGAIN, the settled area of Jews on the West Bank amounts to just 1.7%, of which much is re-settled i.e.legally owned land by Jews from which they were ethnically cleansed in 1929,like the Etzion block.
In any event, if you trouble to read my posts above, this is but small beer compared to the ongoing theft of land by Arabs in Israel, about which we predictably hear nothing from the likes of you.

blue_&_white_avenger

Paul April 1st, 2010 9:55am
"compare Israel -- whose Arab citizens have equal rights – as an ‘apartheid state’".
Paul, I think that you're a bit screwed up in what you write:
the Arabs to whom you refer are citizens of the Palestinian Authority. Far from being given Israel voting rights, they should have rights accorded by the PLO - as per the Oslo Agreement.
However, it is a fact that many Arabs in East Jerusalem who could vote for the PA have Israel rights & all that democracy entails.
I'm afraid that, far from what you, in your complete ignorance, imply, the Arabs who have the choice vote with their feet.
As for working in Israel, until the 2nd intifada, some 100K Arabs crossed over to work in Israel, on a daily basis.
Nowadays, as Israel employers prefer not to have a knife in their backs (literally), they take on labour from anywhere else in the world.

You can have the Palestinians in the UK - the government seems to welcome them?

blue_&_white_avenger

Jacqueline - you got this wrong :"More recently, after the Holocaust Britain barred the doors of Palestine to the pitiful survivors.". You missed something -
When the Evian conference was convened in 1938, to discuss the plight of the Jews of Europe, Britain only condescended to attend on condition that Palestine as the rightful home for the Jews, was off the agenda.
And then no-one (Dominican Republic aside) wanted them.
And of course, the RN whose resources were pretty much in demand, was used to intercept boat loads of Jewish refugees and return them to their deaths in Europe - pretty similar stance to the SS's use of nazi-scarce-resource-trains in 1944.
And of course, it goes without saying that, having decided that Jews couldn't settle in their homeland, but anyone else can settle in Britain, that it should decide that only Arabs may settle in places like Hebron.
It means that when it comes to appeasement, the UK wins every time.

phil

Katie
April 2nd, 2010 11:36am Hey Katie are you available maybe I could qualify :)

Jonathan Karmi

Spot on Melanie. Britain is plunging headlong down the khazi as we speak.

Derek BLADES

I was puzzled by Ms Phillips' suggestion that a Jewish conspiracy theory is being resurrected. None of the critics of Israel that she mentioned - Kaufman, Ingrams, Luton, Greenstein, Oborne - have used that term. They have pointed out that some supporters of Israel donate funds to political parties in the hope of influencing UK foreign policy in ways they desire.

I find that interesting information. Is it true or not?

Henry Sidgwick

"Truth"triumphs,
To remind you, you said no-one tilled the soil of Palestine until Jewish immigrants started arriving; you said the number of Arab immigrants into Mandate Palestine exceeded the total number of Jews in the world; you said the Palestinians of the West Bank are enjoying a boom courtesy of Israel (and you have since added the priceless assertion that they now have it so good none of them would want to leave); you said Israeli settlements comprise tiddly-squat percent of the West Bank, omitting to say that those settlements somehow require Palestinians to be excluded from at least 50% of the West Bank; now we learn that land "stolen" by Arabs in Israel exceeds the territories illegally occupied by Israel after 1967... You would appear to be afflicted with an endless drizzle of nonsense, which is surely detrimental to the cause you espouse.

(I have noticed some comments by Philo. Who is Wm Hazlitt? What is their significance to our on-going efforts to educate you?)

Adam B.

Blades, I'm sure you are puzzled. Conspiracy theories don't usually announce themselves as such.

Do you think there may just be an Arab lobby at work in the UK?

Jacqueline

Blue and White Avenger.
You are right, apart from Evian and there was also the Bermuda Conference during the war when an American plan was initiated to rescue Jews, but the British opposed it "lest it results in an exodus from Auschwitz to Mandated Palestine"! There were many other unpalatable actions by Britain against the Jews. But worst of all, they took away two thirds of the Promised Land to create Trans-Jordan, another new Arab country and gave it to this Hashemite nomad and made him King of Jordan.
Jordan is Palestine.

Derek BLADES

Like Henry Sidgewick I am puzzled at some of the statistics circulated by TruthTriumphs. He recently asserted that Israeli Settlements on the West Bank occupied only 1.7% of the land area.

Wikipedia, reports that “An assessment by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in 2007 found that approximately 40% of the West Bank was taken up by Israeli infrastructure. The infrastructure, consisting of settlements, the barrier, military bases and closed military areas, Israeli declared nature reserves and the roads that accompany them is off-limits or tightly controlled to Palestinians.”

Quite a gap between 1.7% and 40%! Could TruthTriumps tell us where he gets his 1.7% from and what it refers to? Thank you.

alanadale

In listing a catalogue of Islamic terrorist incidents throughout the world in the past seven days Paul Freeman writes: ‘What on earth have these countries got to do with the West’s tacit support for anything? And when did the “Western Establishment” offer any kind of support -- tacit or otherwise -- for Israel’s settlement policies?’

I would say quite a lot. The Israel Palestine conflict is the core dispute between Islam and the West or rather the hangover from Western colonialism and poisons international relations and relations within Muslim societies – because the West has supported reactionary Arab regimes in order to protect Israel and of course its access to oil.

I would have thought ‘tacit’ was an extremely understated epithet to describe the $3 billion plus a year Uncle Sam pours into Israel each year ‘no strings attached’ considering ALL Israel’s settlement building is illegal in international law

Henry Sidgwick

"Truth"triumphs
Just to clarify my rhetorical "at least 50%": In 2002 Palestinians were excluded from 42% of the West Bank. To illustrate the wonders of statistics, this in effect meant they were excluded from 63% of the agricultural land. By 2009, they were excluded from 60% of the West Bank. I do not know how much agricultural land they are left with. Israel pretty well controls the water (most of which it needs for Israel proper, so the Palestinians are rationed).

I DO recall Wm Hazlitt. Unfortunately he appears to have given up months ago. It would be good if he could do as others have and return to the fray. There are too few reasonable people in this debate.

phil

referring to
alanadale
April 3rd, 2010 9:30am

I note he can make no comment on my remarks -
phil
April 2nd, 2010 10:40am

nevertheless continues unashamed to post his nonsense -this is just to ensure he does not fool anyone as to his mindset and intentions ,which are tell enough untruths enough times and some fools will believe it --TT keep telling the truth ,you have many more believers than the sherriff

Linda Smith

"I DO recall Wm Hazlitt. Unfortunately he appears to have given up months ago. It would be good if he could do as others have and return to the fray. There are too few reasonable people in this debate."

Aha, so that's why Sidgwick/Hazlitt took on onother persona as "Isaac Bickstaff".

Linda Smith

This comment from a reader of Jeffrey Goldberg's blog at The Atlanic succinctly defines the crux of the Israeli/Palestinian dispute - Islamic supremacist ideology:

"....The problem is not the Jews in the West Bank; it is the reluctance of the Arabs to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, and the obtuseness of the Western "thinkers" such as yourself who do not realize that the problem is not a political one of borders, etc; that ship has sailed a number of times. especially when Olmert offered everything they wanted. The "Palestinians" represent the Arab nation, which for RELIGIOUS reasons, will never recognize a Jewish entity in the midst of what they consider their sphere of influence. Wake up!!"
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/04/-israelis-dont-want-to-leave-the-west-bank/38373/

JOHN ROOSEVELT

April 3rd, 2010 8:14am
Like Henry Sidgewick I am puzzled at some of the statistics circulated by TruthTriumphs. He recently asserted that Israeli Settlements on the West Bank occupied only 1.7% of the land area.

Wikipedia, reports that “An assessment by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in 2007 found that approximately 40% of the West Bank was taken up by Israeli infrastructure. The infrastructure, consisting of settlements, the barrier, military bases and closed military areas, Israeli declared nature reserves and the roads that accompany them is off-limits or tightly controlled to Palestinians.”

Quite a gap between 1.7% and 40%! Could TruthTriumps tell us where he gets his 1.7% from and what it refers to? Thank you."

Who cares? Israel deserves to take the lot, anyway. It has been besieged by the moslems for far too long and suffered too many wars of aggression almost to count.

The only reason to give the Palestinian arabs anything, at this point, is for the sake of a genuine Peace deal. Since there are too many Islamic interest groups hell bent on spoiling any peace deal, however, clearly negotiations will - yet again - prove meaningless.

All this twaddle re percentages etc is otiose.

Let's see what compromises all parties will be forced to acept, if any. Might, as always, will prevail.

Jonathan Hoffman

Melanie - re your 'Update'

Linton did say "tentacles'. I was there. There are at least four other witnesses I know.

In fact he has now apologised for it, so how can his office say he never said it?

http://thejc.com/news/uk-news/30109/linton-apologises-israels-tentacles-speech

Also there is a recording!

Henry Sidgwick

A further selection from the propagandists armoury of avoidance: if an argument has blown up in our face, pretend it never happened, and if a fact proves awkward, ignore it (it means we can lose every argument with impunity); fixate on trivia - like speculating who is behind the name behind the argument (it allows us to ignore the argument); blame it all on Islamists - if anything goes wrong, it is because of some innate feature of Islam (allows us to be right however badly we behave); assert that Israel has every right to be a rogue state (might is right, and we are protected by the mightiest state in the world, which happens also to be a rogue, so we are always right); at all times remember that we are Civilization and they are mere barbarians, so history is on our side in killing, brutalizing, oppressing, and impoverishing them - it is what they are for (they supply us with resources or services or they get out our way)...

Adam B.

Carl, I'm sure you're very worried about press censorship in Hamas controlled Gaza, in the Fatah controlled Palestinian Authority, in Iran, Syria and every other despotic regime in the Middle East - aren't you?

Israel is the only country in the ME with a completely free press.

Stefan

To alanadale and others:

You have not answered my charge; why bomb the Scots if you have it in for Israel? Why bring your problems to the streets of this country and Europe and indeed the entire world. If as some of you give the feeble excuse it's because this country supports Israel, then you are condoning suicide bombings here.

You and others like you have shown your hand; try and talk yourself out of this one! Is it because it's a lot easier elsewhere as the Israelis have tightened up?

Carl

Adam B - you are deluding yourself.

Adam B.

Carl, a quick gander at the Israeli press will expose the inaccuracy of your argument.

Now look at the Iranian press...

Carl

Adam B - I suggest that you read my link. I know that you, as an ardent Apologist, will find it difficult reading but just try. You do a disservice to liberal Israelis by not accepting any criticism of the Israeli State

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Sidgewick wrote: "A further selection from the propagandists armoury of avoidance: if an argument has blown up in our face, pretend it never happened, and if a fact proves awkward, ignore it (it means we can lose every argument with impunity); fixate on trivia - like speculating who is behind the name behind the argument (it allows us to ignore the argument); blame it all on Islamists - if anything goes wrong, it is because of some innate feature of Islam (allows us to be right however badly we behave); assert that Israel has every right to be a rogue state (might is right, and we are protected by the mightiest state in the world, which happens also to be a rogue, so we are always right); at all times remember that we are Civilization and they are mere barbarians, so history is on our side in killing, brutalizing, oppressing, and impoverishing them - it is what they are for (they supply us with resources or services or they get out our way)..."

Part of that is correct, Sidgewick:

Might is right, especially if it used to defend against unwarranted attempts at slaughter.

What "right" do the Arabs of the Middle East have - in the light of their actions against Jews - particularly since Partition - to anything from Israel?

Are wars of aggression to be ignored in your assignation of rights?

If so, don't expect your "reasoning" to convince a state continuosly threatend by violence over the last 60 years plus, nor the Jews of the Middle East for many score years before that.

This is not an excuse for "nasty" state behavior or a call to promote it, but it does help to give a true context for why Israel behaves as it does and will continue to do so - if the approach of radical Islam continues to define the Palestinian agenda towards it and Peace.

One man's terrorist may be another man's freedom fighter. However, it is also true that one man's rogue state is another man's state behaving rationally and with justice on its side.

C. Gee

Adam B, April 3, at 11:40 pm.

Thank you for that clean-up.
And what are we to make of the self-censorship of much of the Western media in their reporting on the corruption of the Palestinian leadership? Clearly, that the Palestinian thugs have successfully intimidated them. The Eason Jordan syndrome - pervasive and deadly.

Henry Sidgwick

Oh, look: "Truth"triumphs has run away again! A "crank": one who presents "Truth"triumphs with truths; one who triumphs over "Truth"triumphs in argument again and again; one who demonstrates the woeful inadequacies of "Truth"triumphs.

Adam B.

Carl, why would I read propaganda, to quote you?

Furthermore, as it is completely irrelevant to this thread, I will not indulge your Israel bashing fetish. Ne'er a word against Palestinian press censorship, nor that emanating from the Arab world from you. How ironic you attack the one country with a free press, free elections and an independent judiciary.

Carl, as an admirer of the antisemitic terror roup Hamas, why don't you just cut to the chase - instead of posting links with this complaint or that, why not admit that you just think Israel and its inhabitants should disappear? Why don't you have that honsety?

Adam B.

Henry, I seem to remember you doing a disappearing act on a previous thread with me - you couldn't quite believe why I wouldn't join in hysterical Israel bashing...

phil

Adam B.
April 4th, 2010 10:56pm ---Although I despise everything that carl writes and I treat his message with disdain ,he does in fact serve a useful purpose and that is to remind us, both that we live in a wonderful country that is tolerant and welcoming to many different races ,and yet there is a shadow cast over us by those who think like carl .we must never forget and be on our guard and I do not mean only Jewish people .The Holocaust serves as a reminder of what humans can do to each other and how hatred can breed if we let down our guard.Carl at least is upfront , unlike sidgewick , alandale philo etc .so let them speak ,they merely condemn themselves every time they write .

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
I find you STILL cannot understand what was said to you. You might also like to check back over the last few weeks for the several instances where you have abruptly opted for a discreet silence.

Carl

Adam B - once you get a bit older, you will start to understand that everything is not just black and white.

That together with the fact that no matter how often you type statements that are patently untrue, they do not become less so.

Henry Sidgwick

I am baffled by the way some comments appear and some don't. Fatuous ones appear, like my one berating "Truth"triumphs for his uselessness in debate. But ones I think have some content don't appear, however often they are sent. Some transparency and accountability would be a great help.

What I tried to say is that it takes little effort to study enough history to understand that the Palestinians have a claim on the land, and that the aggression has not been all one way; also, that "might is right" has been the watchword of such worthies as Genghis Khan and the Mafia, the Soviet Union and the US, China in Tibet and provinces north...Civilized people try to mitigate the effect of such barbarism (that they are not very successful is no reason not to try). They certainly do not revel in it. And, finally, it is problematic to claim both that might is right and that justice is on your side.

I hope this comment is deemed worthy of appearing.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Carl
"April 2nd, 2010 1:25pm
Interesting to see that Israel is now attempting to censor the press:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/journalist-on-the-run-from-israel-is-hiding-in-britain-1934015.html

The Israeli Government is running scared of world opinion."

Just because you construe an opinion as belonging to your "world" doesn't make it an opinion one does or doesn't have to run scared of. That opinion just may be such moralistic twaddle, that one simply should ignore it...

I am not an apologist for Israel..since, I know Israel doesn't need to apologise to anyone - not least "world opinion"; especially regarding its own legislation with regard to its Press - even if it behaves in a way which is deemed unjust by some

On the other hand, I do believe the Arabs and the Moslems of the Middle East have alot to apologise for. If there is no recognition of this (which there won't be), what you reckon Israel needs to apologise for will not doubt never go away.

There is as much or more chance that Israel will deal with the wrongs within its own society as well or better than any state on earth. That may never be perfect but certainly sufficient for you to stay in your box and not use every controversial case re Israel's action regarding its own citizens or otherwise, as an excuse to demonise this state.

No matter how hard you try to deligimise Israel's statehood, it will only go away if many other countries go with it. Get used to the fact and, with that firmly in your bigoted head, genuinely seek compromise and Peace.

Your lot - or the lot you seemed to support so sanctimoniously - have not done that in the history of the last 90 years. Time it turned over a new leaf and stopped its mewling.

If you want to get all steamed up with your own sense of rectitude, try playing some games:

What would Russia do if Georgia fired Qassam rockets into Russian civilian areas daily?

What would China do if Taiwan did the dame?

What has the US done as a result of a single attack on its shores - 9/11 - not to mention the UK and the rest of NATO?

What did Iran do to Iraq ewhen that country moved aggressively against it?

How many civilians did the Sri Lankan Government kill in the last 3 weeks of its attempt to stop the Tamil Tigers?

Well, this is only the start of the game. If you want a sneak preview of the next part, think of the attack - today - on the US Embassy in Pershawar..and speculate re how Obama will respond..

Fun, no, especially if you're an unrepentant moralist who has more energy for intellectual smoke and mirrors than any genuine pursuit of peace.

C. Gee

Henry Sidgwick:

I hope Carl is as concerned about the censorship of your apercues as he is about the leaking of military secrets being censored by the IDF.

Frankly, though, I am surprised that your last was deemed worthy of appearing.

There is no reason in logic that might should not be right. In the case of Israel, it is.

As for not reveling in its victory - there is no reason for Israel to subscribe to that gentlemanly notion when the playing fields of Eton have abandoned it; when its 'tentacles' extended in friendship have been rudely ignored. The Arabs, it is true, treat Jewish Triumph and their Disaster as equal impostors. But they regard as their Triumphs defeats which are not has bad as they might have been or were in the past. They also quite openly jubilate at the justice of the victories of Islam over office-workers, train-passengers and market-goers.

While Israel does not "revel" in its victories over a team which plays badly, loses, fouls, cheats, lies about the score, jeers the winner and steals the cup - it is entitled to some satisfaction and to withhold the rah,rah,rah.

Henry Sidgwick

C. Gee
April 5th, 2010 9:48pm
Frankly, I am surprised that your last was deemed worthy of appearing.

Adam B.

Henry, I didn't realise you were now arbiter of what is deemed worthy of appearing.

It was you who got stuck, Henry, and you know it.

phil

Henry Sidgwick
April 5th, 2010 6:03pm

I am baffled by the way some comments appear and some don't. Fatuous ones appear, like my one ---well you said it henry !!!!

Adam B.

Carl, I would have thought age would bring moral clarity and a belief in the truth, rather than moral confusion and belief in lies and propaganda.

Henry Sidgwick

Adam B.
April 5th, 2010 11:28pm
Doh! Read C. Gee, why don't you?

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

It does not surprise me in the least that the emboldened rats are now emerging in force from the British woodwork.

I'm old now, but came to the conclusion many years ago that there is greater potential for fully active anti-Semitism in Britain than there ever was in pre-Hitler Germany. In the 19th century, the Germans were among the most enlightened of peoples in Europe in the matters of civil and human rights. This no doubt led the Jews of Germany to delude themselves into believing that they had been fully accepted and accordingly to consider themselves as fully German.

Many Jews in Britain today are indulging in similar self-delusion as regards their position here. Hopefully, the blatant demonstrations of anti-Jewish prejudice in Britain today will give them cause to review their situation.

Isaac Bickerstaff

Adam B.,
"Carl, as an admirer of the antisemitic terror group Hamas, why don't you just cut to the chase - instead of posting links with this complaint or that, why not admit that you just think Israel and its inhabitants should disappear? Why don't you have that honesty?"

I understand that the Israeli press taken as a whole is one of the most robust in the world, but is it not possible to say this without lurching into a tirade such as the above. Free speech is the prerequisite that makes the Israeli press so robust.

AF

Alanadale,
kindly explain your logic.
How do you equate building a house with terorist acts and the killing and maiming of innocents,are you by any chance a building inspector,or on a planning committee.

gingashields

Excellent article. But why is it that opinions on Israel and Jews are at once so catholic in their reach - Israel/Jews/defense against terrorism/national survival/war/the Holocaust/etc. all somehow part of the same issue - and also so extreme in their expression? Rarely is there a calm and rational discussion on, for example, legitimate defense of one's sovereign territory and citizens vs the limits of acceptable military action when civilians are affected. Instead, somehow 'Jews' and 'Israel' conjure up a great flood of venom or support, and Israel and Jews (the same 'thing', of course, we always encouraged to assume, either collectively entitled or collectively damned) are either paragons of independent democratic civilisation in a sea of Arab savagery OR evil Zionist murderers bent on subjugation of their neighbours and the establishment of a Hebrew theocracy. Isn't it possible to calm everything down a little?

Marian Thomson

As a Scot, I am not Pro Palestinian and I find the level of anti-Semitism in the UK to be unjustified. I pose a question to all who see Palestine as being deprived etc.
Since the signing of the Oslo Accord in 1993, the U.S. government has committed
more than $1.3 billion in economic assistance to the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Since the end of 2000, Arab states have transferred aid of $45 million (April 2002,
increased to $55 million). The European Union (EU) transfers approximately $9
million monthly. By the end of 2001, the Palestinians had received $4 billion ( now
closer to $5.5 billion).
This is the equivalent of $1,330 per Palestinian. By comparison, the Marshall Plan to
rebuild Europe after World War II provided $272 per European (in today's dollars)."
Could somebody please tell me where all that money went?

Israel has worked hard, to create a country that is economically developed from hard labour, blood and sweat. Israel has given the world scientific, electronic and many other benefits. What has Palestine given.............terrorists

Salomon Benzimra

No wonder nobody calls Britain "Great" anymore.