The death-bed confession of the EU elite

Robert Page

The real threat to Europe is that Germany will ensure its own destruction as a result of trying to bail out the unsupportable. This is the route to which they are currently committing themselves.

To that extent, financial markets are singualrly extraordinary. Every time the patient injects more poison into their system, they toast the patient's recovery.

Hasan Afzal

The failure of the Euro lies in the fact that monetary discipline wasn't followed up by fiscal competence. All it took were four states, the PIGS, and the whole system looks to be falling as solidarity is drying up and a feeling of nationalism is hitting Western Europe.

Quite right, that we hope this kind of collectivist freak-show fails, but do you really think the Delor-sympathisers will give up that quickly? Expect billions, if not trillions of Euro's to be pumped in to keep the monster alive.

It's only until the people of Europe decide for themselves that they want to get rid of the Euro (as well as the EU) experiment will they do. Until then, the elites will be hard at work putting smokescreen after smokescreen before our eyes.

Noa

And a very good riddance to the euro the EU and its stooges, of which Van Rumpey is the exemplar. Unappointed, overpaid and over there.

Brad

It seems nobody is wiling to speculate about the wider impact a Euro collapse would have. History proves that nationalism has always bubbled just below the surface across the continent. An economic and political meltdown must surely hold the potential for the rise of demagogic nationalists and the dangers they present.

Can history repeat itself? DO we have to ask?

BalaamsAss

@ Brad

Ted Heath's message can be summed-up: Common Market or more war. Was this a justified conclusion or a threat? I think the latter. There is another way for Europe outside the grandiose project of the 'European Empire'. This way is to promote and build strong nations within Europe rather than to obliterate these nations as part of EU coalescence.

Charles

Insofar as the European project has meant no wars in Europe for the last 60 years, it would seem harsh to dismiss it as a complete failure.

As far as political and economic meltdown in Europe are concerned, be careful what you wish for: would you really be pleased to visit economic misery upon large swathes of the European (including the British) population for the sake of your ideology?

Edward McLaughlin

Brad

What is there about nationalism, that necessarily has to be seen as demagogic?

Surely there are nations in this world, and their peoples have naturally come to see this entity as one which they want to belong to and to uphold. Are they all wrong, or just the Europeans among them?

If the status of nationhood - as an articulation of the need to belong - is wrong, how are we to insist then, that Europe is right? It tries merely to be a bigger nation, every bit as likely to prove 'demagogic' towards other similar units.

Just because we had wars between nations, this does not mean they are inevitable - nor will attempts not to recognise national differences, make any problems disappear.

TomTom

There could not have been war in Europe when Soviet and Us troops occupied it...only in Yugoslavia did Europe manage to create a war.

Germany has no 'conservative' party both are profligate and economic illiterates. The party of Ludwig Erhard has been emasculated by Kohl and Merkel and is a threat to German stability

phil

This is not a subject for the smart alecs to pronounce upon lest they make their words a self fulfilling prophesy,particularly when they probably know nothing about the subject .The crisis with Northern Rock was typical of foolish people panicking the innocents ,when knowing nothing of consequence -I suggest we all shut up and leave it to those who are trying to mend our world ,and especially the ones with messages like that of the man from the ark .Bitter and uneducated remarks like he has made could cause everyone a great deal of harm , and what for ?just a chance to make a smart alec remark regardless of the cost to us all .
It surely does not need a huge brain to envisage the calamity the downfall of the Euro would be not only to those in it but to the world at large ,Ireland The Uk and even Spain are now attempting to ensure that there will not be a failure regarding sovereign debt and they will need all our help to ensure it does not happen ,and that must include a lack of scaremongering not only from those who may benefit from it ,but particularly those who wield the sporting chronicle , a flat cap and a big ego .

Rhoda Klapp

Phil, the edifice is not failing because we who were always against wish it. It is failing because it was always flawed. If it does fail, it will be the fault of those who sought to ignore the flaws in pursuit of their vision. But it was not my vision, and although any collapse of the currency alone or the whole shebang would be painful, at least it would give us a chance to get to a better place, maybe with the consent of the people rather than the elites who purport to know better to such an extent that they do what is 'best' for us without any permission.

Brad

@ Edward McLaughlin,

There need not be a demagogic figure at the front of a nationalistic movement. My worry is that with the economic storm we are headed into the conditions will ripe for such a figure. Comparisons to the Weimar Republic should not be dismissed out of hand. The biggest lie in the world is "never again".

Augustus

Is there a printing press in Germany secretly printing Deutschemarks? I don't know, but some people say there is. EMU can only fail if Germany abandons it. But this would certainly be a traumatic experience. If the German people really start to doubt and populist parties play into that, however, they will be well on the way.

The Euro zone can't continue offering a cash-dispenser for problem states. And Greece should never have been let in in the first place. The common
political destiny created by the Euro might have seemed valuable, but it can't be a substitute for unlimited mutual
financial support, which also conflicts with the terms of the Maastricht Treaty. The crisis is certainly an acute one, and a difficult path lies ahead with no quick fixes.

Ian C

The Euro is toast, too thick a piece of toast stuck to the sides of the toaster that is burning it.

The question is how long will it take to pull the individual currencies out of the charcoaled remains? And will those remains belong to the southern or northern Eurozone members?

In other words, whose bits will be plucked from the burning carcass left in the toaster.

And will others stupidly stick a knife into the toaster to try to help? Switch the power off and walk away.

Monty

BalaamsAss
May 27th, 2010 4:16pm

@ Brad

Ted Heath's message can be summed-up: Common Market or more war. Was this a justified conclusion or a threat? I think the latter.
-------

Couldn't agree more.
The peace of Europe has been underpinned by Nato at first, and subsequently by the dawning realisation across Europe that there are superpowers now, and we are not among them.
Heath was a treacherous Euro-fanatic who would have said absolutely anything to get his own way.

Rip Van Winkle

Thank you Melanie. 'tis 7:25am here. You made a good start for my day.

Rip Van Winkle

Robert Page @ 1:08pm

Robert, It's 7:30am here, have had my coffee but, as yet, no cold dip so I'm a bit fick. Could you rewrite your second para for me please; I gotta headache.

Rip Van Winkle

Ian C @ 6:53pm

" ... And will those remains belong to the southern or northern Eurozone members?"

What do you do with burnt toast?

Linda Smith

Now, what I want to know is who appoints the unaccountable, anonymous, bureaucrats who make our laws behind closed doors in Brussels.

Does anybody reading this thread know the answer? Also, why does the "democratic" UK government acquiesce to be governed by this Brussels cabal?

phil

Rhoda Klapp
May 27th, 2010 6:17pm ---- Rhoda I am not laying the blame on whoever may have been the cause ,I am merely saying we are where we are ,and we must make the best of it .Those who cause panic in my opinion are two types ,one is those who may benefit by playing the markets and the other is those who talk nonsense and have no idea of the subject they are pontificating about .
--------------
Last night we saw on Newsnight two sides ,I honestly do not know which one if any was right ,but one was a hedge fund manager who I have heard before and a smart alec if ever I have seen one ,he was spreading a self fulfilling doom ,whilst two others were trying to bring balance ,whilst showing there was a way forward -I know who I prefer to hear .

TomTom

The crisis with Northern Rock was typical of foolish people panicking the innocents ,when knowing nothing of consequence

Depositor accounts were insured for £2000 unlike the USA where it was $100,000

If banks want to speculate it should be without depositor's Savings

David, Thailand

Shock, horror...!

And these are our leaders, our elected leaders, the people we've been looking up to - for decades?

I reckon we deserve the consequences of blindly trusting those we vote for.

phil

TomTom
May 28th, 2010 3:42am I am talking about the lines of investors scared out of their wits by foolish talk -they never lost a penny .

Noa

phil.

An unelected EU burocracy and its apparatiks are committing an unimaginable amount of European assets, including the UK's, to supporting, much in the manner of the ERM, the unsupportable economies of the PIGS in order to save their own political skins.
Van Rumpey, the Brussels Pout, is the self serving advocate of this institutionalised fraud and attempt to impose a fiscal and political dictatorship.

It's better for liberty and democracy that it self destructs now.

In the meantime your persistent wailings that we must not rock the boat, because it might precipitate disaster, would be amusing if they were not so asinine and an affront to the right of free speech. You might want to try putting your illiberal statist views forward in the New Statesman, which homes many similar quasi-literate crypto-socialists.

And as usual I, like other posters, struggled to make sense of your arguments, such as they are, due to their poor structure and punctuation.

In particular, a comma comes after the final letter of a word; just so, in order to provide clarity to a reader.
Unless you learn the virtues of Samuel Smiles Self Help we will look at the use of full stops and semi-colons in future lessons. :-)

Stan

â˜Nobody ever told the proverbial man in the street that sharing a single currency was not just about making peoplesâ™ lives easier when doing business or travelling abroad .."

No, they weren't told that it wasn't just about that - but they WERE told that it WAS just about that.

When are people going to realise that the whole EU project relies on deception?

Rhoda Klapp

Is it better to panic and get your money out, or stay calm and lose the lot? I don't know, there's a book to be written about that, and a Nobel prize for economics, for the one who can tell us what a sensible person is to do. Listen to the people in charge is not likely to be the answer.

I admit to a soupcon, or should I say ein bisschen, of schadenfreude about the euro. I'd like it to crash so I could say I told you so. Of course there would be a lot of misery involved, but the question is, for whom, and can it be avoided by not facing the problem of different speed economies?

It seems to me, and I am no expert, that the broke countries cannot devalue or restore their own currency when it is shared with others. The drachma can't be restored if all the folks have their money in euros. They can stay in euros, which will still work, and exchange alter at a favourable rate. No go. So it must be Germany which reverts to the mark. Except, currently, there are no (overt) plans to have any kind of orderly breakup to the euro, and if it cannot go on, then the breakup will perforce be disorderly.

Augustus

I agree with Linda. The Brussels
bureaucratic apparatus is enormously undemocratic, plagued by corruption and inefficiency, and is manned by leftist political correct multicultural idiots. And they won't lose the chance that this crisis brings to grow into an even more greedy and egotistic
political class with no accountability to anyone. We seem to be trapped in some horrendous Keynesian monetarist nightmare, where a cabal of policy-makers have taken over the international financial system, and have yet again decided to go down a route which merely delays the problem
by pushing it down the road, but which virtually guarantees that when the next bubble collapses there is no pleasant way back. Europe is politically
financially and morally bankrupt
but will find a way out by creating a new, even more authoritarian political system.
A sort of pan-European National Socialism Mark 2.

Simon Stephenson

Rhoda : 11.30am

We won't get anywhere as long as we're stuck in the tunnel of thinking "creditor nations - praiseworthy and debtor nations - feckless and irresponsible". What needs to happen is for it to become a general understanding that international trade must primarily be about balanced bartering of each others products, and that exchanging current products for future obligations on any large scale cannot be seen as a sustainable state of affairs.

I'm no expert, but I'm led to believe that one of Keynes' major frustrations at Bretton Woods was the lack of understanding of the need to put in place a mechanism to discourage nations from being gatherers of trade surpluses. This lack of understanding doesn't seem to have diminished much in 65 years.

phil

Noa
May 28th, 2010 10:10am ---Noa ,if it makes you feel better I will agree that you can use commas better than me ,unlike you I had to use my time for more important matters than learning how to type and be rude to others.You obviously know nothing of economics nor do you understand that a centre right leaning does not equate with crypto-socialist views -

You continue to write in various columns relieving yourself of your insecurities by lambasting me and making a fool of yourself -I have never seen anything other than sarcasm and childish spite from you ,pontificating about anything that will get our attention ,regardless of your lack of knowledge -so I will ask you again not to cause panic with worthless hate mails .I am sure nobody is interested in who you hate ,whether it be me or the unfortunate politicians you continue to aim your bile at. Kindly just enjoy your brilliant punctuation somewhere quiet and stop bothering those who are interested in our future .If you are unstoppable in your desire to accuse people of fraud ,why not have the courage to use your full name and await the inevitable writ,instead of your usual bullying tactics whilst hiding behind your alias .

Dixon

Brad
May 27th, 2010 2:55pm
"It seems nobody is wiling to speculate about the wider impact a Euro collapse would have. History proves that nationalism has always bubbled just below the surface across the continent. An economic and political meltdown must surely hold the potential for the rise of demagogic nationalists and the dangers they present.

Can history repeat itself? DO we have to ask?"

This is exactly what I have said to people for about 20 years. When naiive fools venture that the EU is an attempt to ensure an end to wars in Europe I am inclined to point out that in fact the EU is the most likely cause of future wars.

However, nationalism in itself I believe to be a good thing. Only given a bad name by certain players in the last century.

My ideal is a Europe of independent, nationalistic entities coexisting peacefully but acting in their respective self-interest in arenas outside of Europe. Ie, as it was in the age of European imperialism but without conflict within the continent itself. A status quo maintained by the sobering reality of nuclear armed players (UK and France).

phil

Rhoda Klapp
May 28th, 2010 11:30am
you quote ----
"Is it better to panic and get your money out, or stay calm and lose the lot? I don't know, there's a book to be written about that, and a Nobel prize for economics, for the one who can tell us what a sensible person is to do. Listen to the people in charge is not likely to be the answer."
--------------
---I do not have the answer Rhoda either ,but I can only repeat that we are in the mess whether we like it or not and it behoves us all to try to pull together-we were in a worse mess in 1945 and recovered ,so I believe we will again in spite of the messages of doom from some very foolish people.Shouting insults like the man from the ark will solve nothing ,but the concerted efforts from those with a will to pull through will certainly help -Those like you who voice their concerns and ideas can only be that help .
----
I cannot say the immortal words of FDR ,that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself ,but I can say that those that cause panic by thoughtless comments as used by noa do a great disservice to us all ,especially when they are mere spite and have no knowledge to back them up .

Rhoda Klapp

Simon, traditionally the mechanism for balancing trade is exchange rates, but ultimately if one country /region is more competitive than another it will end up with all the marbles, no matter how denominated. In the case of the UK, companies from overseas keep buying our companies. Whe nthey shut them down in order to keep home industry going, that costs us. I don't know how to fix it, other than to get more competitive.

Phil, nothing I do at my level makes any difference to international finace, but rest assured the whatever I might do will be motivated by what is best for me and my family first. Any other allegiances will be way behind. I commend the same course to you. Or you could wait for someone, an international banker or a Chineses factory owner, to come along and look after you. Don't hold your breath.

JohnAnt

The patronising and contemptuous phrase 'ordinary Europeans' says it all, really.
How typical that it should be mouthed by an EU-politician who is himself quintessentially ordinary.

phil

Rhoda Klapp
May 28th, 2010 2:31pm I think you are underestimating yourself ,public opinion does count,and what you say about your family is quite a normal thought for all of us -btw I actually have a friend who is an international banker ,sadly I have to split the lunch bill with him:),my only Chinese connections are with salt and pepper ribs .

Edward McLaughlin

Brad

You step back somewhat, from your former position which had it as given that the nation state propels itself invariably towards demagogy and aggression.

I agree with you that we are indeed heading into an economic storm. I tend to think that the EU and its anti-democratic foundations, is the cause of, rather than the solution to, this situation.

Rip Van Winkle

Phil @ 1:40pm

Wow! It would help to know there are, at least, 17 rules for comma use.

Let's start by ...

phil

Rip Van Winkle
May 28th, 2010 5:56pm ok I am always ready to learn something ,but it has to be something worth learning -use of commas never paid any bills ,some economic expertise might though :)

JohnBUK

@phil I'm awfully sorry old chap but you keep going on about people who know nothing about economics keeping quiet and not rocking the boat.
I'm not sure that many of those self-appointed economic experts you think exist actually foresaw the current problem.
HOWEVER there were a few people who could see that borrowing more and more money against supposedly ever-increasing asset values (property) and splurging it on one big holiday for the world meant tears before bedtime.
All I'm saying is, whilst waiting for the experts to thrill us with their wisdom take a moment to ponder on common sense.
Maybe some who post here might get it right - I doubt they'd precipitate Armageddon, self-fulfilling or otherwise.

Dirty Euro

So I take it then that Greece is perfect example of the failure of a right wing state. It has a lower top rate of tax than us. A higher basic rate of income tax and higher VAT rates.
It is now about to bring down the second depression.
Now you right wingers want us to follow that immoral system.
So much for non redistribute unchristian economies being better.

DaveP

The only reason that Gordon Brown was against the Euro, was that joining the Eurozone would have limited his freedom to SPEND. Of course he could have joined the Eurozone, and ignored the restrictions on running a deficit, but that would have been unBritish.

Linda Smith

Well, I had hoped someone would have an answer to my question: who appoints the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels who hand down the laws for our Government to rubber-stamp?

Rip Van Winkle

Phil @ 7:18pm

Phil, You let Noa's jibes get under the skin; here's what you do: for black and white toing and froing, the cut and thrust, I recommend

"Eats, Shoots & Leaves" by Lynne Truss, a delightful history of punctuation. The blurb puts it "... at once urgent, sexy and hilarious ...".

The price is about six pounds something. Best of luck with the reading AND USE; I'll be watching. Rip.

Rip Van Winkle

Linda Smith @ 12:54am

A faceless bureaucrat.

Rip Van Winkle

Have just finished researching a few March posts: my punt says the style of Isaac Bickerstaff's posts is too much like the other ...

Oh! The intriguing ellipsis?

phil

Rip Van Winkle--
May 29th, 2010 2:19am ---
Thanks I will take your advice in the spirit you send it ,although I do not have the urge to improve my grammar enough to read books on it -I hope my" messages" are plain enough to get through and so I will soldier on with my deficiencies ,but trying harder :):)

phil

JohnBUK
May 28th, 2010 9:33pm -John perhaps I should have made it more plain -I do not wish to set myself up as being the expert on how to get out of this mess ,because I certainly do not know ,I just want to stop the scaremongering from those who also do not know, and just wish to be smart alecs.
----
You are of course right about the mistakes and the sheer stupidity of allowing the toxic debts to arise in the first place .It was from sheer greed ,all of us will remember the banks pushing loans at us ,trying to sell insurance and bonds ,in fact earning a quick buck in any way they can ,that is how their bonuses arose ,on commission ,on the the sale of a mortgage that the borrower was never likely to be able to repay from their incomes ,in fact an income that did not justify the loan -we see the consequences so easily now ,mortgages higher than the value of the property and desperate people locked into debt .Credit card companies pushing increased borrowing ,yes I could go on ,but if this was not bad enough ,governments spending on programmes that were just wasteful and as we have seen threatening sovereign debt repayment .I said earlier that countries such as Ireland ,Spain and ourselves are beginning to try to right the wrongs and that I believe we have to back them rather than continue to knock them .
---------------------
Those of us who did know what Gordon Brown was doing, like ripping huge chunks from the value of pension funds ,
"lowering taxation" whilst increasing nat insurance, and fooling the public with his ridiculous financial policies were a tiny voice of discontent ,his boasts fooled so many that were not involved in the small world of taxation and economics ,and understandably so .People whose education was in medicine ,education and many other fields were never likely to grasp what he was doing,in fact why should they have done,? he was our PM and they were entitled to trust him and he let us down .

With the help of the citizens I do believe we can get back to normality ,but we have to be prepared to take the medicine from what we hope are the right doctors .Already I am deeply disturbed by what we are hearing about proposals for capital gains .,but perhaps public opinion is changing the initial thoughts of this coalition -I hope so .We all have a part to play and I am trying to do mine -recuerdos y respetos -phil

phil

Rip Van Winkle -just had a go at Eats, Shoots & Leaves" by Lynne Trusson the web --I think I will stick to what I think I know about .It is a bit too late to start on that new stuff for me :),.!-
----
btw noa does not bother me at all ,I find it all amusing but I will not let him getaway with his supercilious nastiness unscathed ,he needs to learn that if you dish it out ,you have to learn to take it too:)-oh and know what you are talking about.

Dimoto

Greece joining the Euro (and the EU) had nothing to do with the merits of the Greek case, and everything to do with the EU nationist's view of Greece as the "fount of European culture", "the home of democracy" and similat twaddle.
Every misguided nationalism has to have it's demented myths.
Many in Europe quite openly see the EU as a life support system for the Catholic religion.
The "European project" was never, ever just an economic system.

Linda Smith

@Rip Van Winkle

If your response "A faceless bureaucrat" to my question "who appoints the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels who hand down the laws for our Government to rubberstamp" is correct, then why is the country - media and politicians - bar a few exceptions, silent?

Why is the Spectator silent?

Rip Van Winkle

`@ Linda Smith

Lass, I really don't know; into our little don't knows slip fundamentalists, golly that's many characters for an ellipsis. Time here now 0423hrs, and this old bigot has heroically braved southern hemisphere wintry blasts for a saturday night out and a few pints then realised he's forgotten to put the blanket on, so while it's warming up I'll give Phil a few lines. Goodnight, Linda.

Rip Van Winkle

Phil, Obviously, in this cut and thrust caper, comma "enabled" will nit prick. Now I couldn't care a wilting stiff about your ideas but you have been game enough to meet your peers in debate; sadly, some peers are unable to quickly get your drift 'cos the punctuation puts them adrift - that's their excuse; it could be thickoes.

So crash course. Forget Lynne Truss (forgive me Lynne) for a few weeks and work on the complaint from the guy tucked away in the "arc".

COMMA: Put aside the 17 or so rules,(you can come back to them later) work with these two.

No. 1. As Noa said, the comma comes after the LAST LETTER of the LAST (preceding) WORD. There is NO SPACE between "D" of the LAST "WORD" and comma. Example: WORD/COMMA=WORD+COMMA.I repeat there is NO SPACE between "D" in LAST "WORD" and comma.

It's easy, you'll catch on; just keep your bl---y thumb off the space bar.

No. 2. As a rough guide, you are a playwright.

Phil: "Lord Richard", (comma-pause)"Why do you not answer Adam B's questions but instead give him the run around?" (note: A question mark after "around" - no space.

Lord Richard: "Phil", (comma-pause) "Alas", (comma-pause) "Lad", (comma-pause-nodding of head) "I surely have
to think 'cos my III is not
now top gun." (note: no space 'tween "n"of "gun" and point.

Phil: "Lord Richard", (comma-pause) "Will you give up, (comma-pause)show a white flag, (comma-pause) cry,(comma-pause) grovel, (comma-pause) lick the boots as per Roget"s Thesaurus? (note: no space 'tween "s" and question mark.

Lord Richard: (With a look of righteous indignation) "What!", (comma-pause) "I'm only concerned with commas and b-er-py pill pushers". (note: End of quotes then point - watch that no space.

(Lord Richard, indignantly exits stage)

Phil, bear in mind 'tis only a rough guide.

phil

Rip Van Winkle
May 29th, 2010 7:35pm Gosh RVW were you on the ale last night? I do not know RICHARD :My commas have left the keyboard under the strain and noa appears to have gone back to the open university for lessons on all matters not including his expertise in grammar.Hope your hangover is not too bad cobber .I am ok with full stops at the moment ,apostrophes do my head in though , semi colons can go to hell ,best regards phil
---------
btw have you noticed my few words on our economic woes seem to have led to an evacuation here ,I think the man from the ark has gone to count his pennies and hopefully make a monetary contribution :)

John Tipple

What are the virtues of Britain becoming a full member of the EU? What is its attraction?
Is it a belief that our trade with the EU would be adversely effected if we were not a full member?
Is to to provide a bulwark to American dominance?
Perhaps we believe that Corpus Juris is somehow superior to English Law and the protection to the citizen of of Habeas Corpus, or and Trial By Jury?
The European Fisheries Policy is a sick joke; the idea of a European Army seems as remote as ever, Europe depends far more on BRitain than the other way round.
At least what happens in WEstminster is recorded, debated by the whole Parliament and voted on in a way that is transparent and accountable.
By all means co-operate with our European Partners but submerge ourselves in this corrupt machine where the major beneficiary is the Mafia seems absurd and to pay £13billion in annual contributions is sheer lunancy.

Bexleyite

"The EU's president told a selected audience of civil servants and businessmen"...

"‘Nobody ever told the proverbial man in the street...'"

That's the problem. The EU never talks, refuses to talk, to the actual, not proverbial, man in he street.

Noa

Mr Van winkle.

An excellent practical explanation of the use of the comma. unfortunately, like most other views provided to the illiterate one it falls on stony ground. A nice try nevertheless, for example:

"...not too bad cobber .I am ok with full stops at the moment ,apostrophes do my head in though , semi colons can go to hell ,best regards phil...".

There were six, yes, SIX punctuation mistakes in that single extract, phul. So how can I or any other poster treat your erstwhile 'thoughts' on 'phulo-conomics' with any degree of seriousness when you repeatedly tell us you can't be bothered with such 'trivia'? Presumably any structured understanding of economics is similarly beneath or more likely, beyond you.

However I'm flattered by your view that my opinion, shared by many by the way, as you might have noticed, may influence the very survival of the EU and and the Euro. Do you have some offshore savings in that currency that give you concern?
Or are you sorry that, like Big Ger, you sold your tola bars?

All correspondence from your lawyers can be sent to either to Messrs Sue, G'rabbit and Run for forwarding to the Zrk.
As you will be aware, or not, given, the truth, however unpalatable, is an effective defence in defamation.

maddy

Just like the socialists created a welfare segment of underclass citizens, they also created a welfare country. i would love to live through a collaspe and enjoy a Brave new world.

phil

Noa
May 30th, 2010 8:10pm -I did respond to you yesterday and tried to say sorry for driving you mad ,it does appear you have lost your marbles and are now unable to comprehend what anybody writes ,in particular the finding that nobody agrees with my remarks on economics etc,an obvious invention by you again.
---
As far as anyone suing you,it would prove fruitless as the judge no doubt would find you unfit to plead.Meanwhile I sentence you to 300 commas ,250 fullstops and 50 hail noa,s -hope it makes you feel better,but its probably better to stay with the animals in your ark until such time as you have recovered and are able to write items of interest other than your childish campaign against me .You may find pigs are extremely bright,and able to communicate with you, but I do not want to hear any talk of your sheep being liars.

Rip Van Winkle

My worD!

Noa

"other than your childish campaign against me...".

I won't let you off with such a blatant untruth, phul. As any reader of these posts will note ALL your posts on this blog criticise me, directly or indirectly.

If you don't like what I write, that doesn't concern me, pass on by. You have made no cogent counter argument.
However your inchoate personal criticisms continue to demonstrates an unhealthy mental fixation with me which I would normally expect to find only in a Lib-Dem MP's social diary and which you really should address with your MD at the earliest opportunity.

phil

Noa
June 1st, 2010 12:15am -noa on a matter of grammar -demonstrate is correct rather than demonstrates-just thought I would help ,and btw I do not have an MD ,nor are you licensed to speak for ALL and finally I am not a Lib Dem as you well know -yes I decided to read your note ,and look how many mistakes I found-This is all very childish I know, but I cannot resist,and all the time I am learning grammar ,not from you of course but RVP helps and I appreciate it -now watch out for those sheep noa and then we can get on with posting things of interest to others ,hasta luego amigo ,Spanish for ta ta .

Jolly Roger

As an impartial observer, a mere reader of interesting posts at the Coffee House, I have to step in here and agree with Noa.

Phil, it is sad that you dismiss punctuation and grammar as being unimportant. You are using punctuation incorrectly and it makes it painful to read anything you write. I am sure you have many fascinating thoughts to share, but by not use punctuation correctly, you come across as an illiterate and the reader will tend to think that anything you say will have no value.

I would urge you to take another look at Rip Van Winkles guide to punctuation. At the very least, please stop putting spaces before periods and commas, the space comes afterwards, not before.

phil

Jolly Roger
June 1st, 2010 10:16am - son, if you refrained from deciding I was illiterate I would take note of your remarks ,but you seem to be just another who enjoys telling himself how clever you are ,so forgive me ,I will type as I do and try when I can to make informative remarks about matters of importance other than where a comma should be placed -I have no difficulty with your support for noa ,by golly he needs it.So when you can tell us all how to save the world I will recognise your right to teach me grammar -ok?

Rip Van Winkle

word comma space word
word comma space word
word comma space word
word comma space word

Jolly Roger

You started out so well Phil! You got it right with the first comma, but then it went so badly wrong. :-(

Incidentally, this has nothing to do with telling you how clever I am. Seriously, how hard is it to put the space after the comma rather than before? It isnt as though this is a hard concept to grasp.

The depressing thing is that we are trying to help you make your posts more readable. I could comment on your usage of massive single sentence paragraphs and how 'walls of text' are hard on the eye, but I fear it would all be falling on deaf ears.

phil

Jolly Roger
June 1st, 2010 12:58pm -Seriously why are you more bothered by commas than what is happening in the world ? If you cannot understand what I , write,don,t worry .I am not relying on you or those like you to change it .You are just being a smart alec .y yo comprendo -y tu ?
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(seeRVP,it doesn't work-I cant get the whatever you call it in ) Perhaps it is my keyboard there is no "high " comma .HELP .no not you roger ,not so jolly. .

RVP THE "DOESNT" WORKS ON MY SPELLCHECKER BUT YOU WILL SEE DONT DOES NOT -QUE PASA

phil

Jolly Roger -I think I should have included it in my last post ,but anyhow if you are merely having a joke ,that's ok with me ,but if you are trying to take the --- please push off as you are just wasting my time as I have no intention of changing my typing ,having only recently learned to do it -I do understand that many smart alecs have lots of time to put commas in the right place (not included here is RVP WHO IS TRYING TO BE HELPFUL) whilst the rest of us have to do the important jobs in life.

Jolly Roger

The problem is Phil, that how you present your argument is nearly as important as what you actually say. It doesn't matter if you write the most profound statements in the history of mankind, if they are an illegible mess it undermines any point you are trying to make.

"I have no intention of changing my typing( ,)having only recently learned to do it"

It is sad that you are unwilling to learn how to use punctuation correctly, but it is your loss. Correct punctuation is an aid to the reader, to help them follow the flow of whatever you have written. I generally expect to see badly written English on the internet, and generally assume that people who write that way are poorly educated or stupid. If you expect to be taken seriously, you need to learn at least the basic rules of grammar.

Noa

"Smart Alecs".

You use this term a lot, phul, to describe people whose ideas you don't like or who disagree with you. It's a good start that you recognise your position in the relationship between smartness and its opposite.

Marcher Baron

"[W]ould you really be pleased to visit economic misery upon large swathes of the European (including the British) population for the sake of your ideology?" Surely, Charles, that is what the EU ideologues are doing. They leapt into creating the currency without the necessary fiscal union to make it work. Presumably because they knew that the man in the street would not wear it - not that such considerations ever worry the ever-closer-union fanatics. I shall be delighted if the euro falls and takes the undemocratic EU with it. Perhaps then we can get back to what I voted for in 1975 - a common market.

phil

Jolly Roger
June 1st, 2010 2:59pm -well now we know where we stand -I shall not waste my time again by being polite to you . I will tell you that I am confident enough of my past achievements ,that I need take no lessons from a pompous fool who dares to write and I quote you---" I generally expect to see badly written English on the internet, and generally assume that people who write that way are poorly educated or stupid."--I think you have defined yourself by your own ignorance so I will not be bothering with you again-You go and earn your bread by selling commas and full stops and I will get on with what I do ,which I feel sure is beyond your capabilities .You would not even get the seat warm if you came for an interview .

phil

Noa
June 1st, 2010 7:14pm noa you and the very silly boy roger continue to write posts to me instead of the issue of this thread ,I do enjoy the fun -I admit it but it is all rather stupid ,you refer to me as phul -does that make you feel more important?,we used to do this stuff at school and I mean primary !! Try writing something sensible rather than sarcastic, stop attacking authority,cut out the grammar lessons that I have no interest in, and you will see how nice I am ,otherwise back to the sheep .

Noa

Phul.

On fiscal matters I refer you to my post on the Wall. If you really want to be scared, read that.
As to your continuing illiteracy; if you persist in failing to meet the English grammar, punctuation and comprehension standards of a Tower Hamlets primary school expect your treatment in these posts to be that of a badly behaved New Lab child with 'disability ishoos'.

The answer is simple. As I've told you before, if you don't like my posts, ignore them; or make cogent arguments against them. Don't say I shouldn't make them because, it scares you, the cat, or the markets. We live in a democracy where the right of free speech is still a right, just. Try the New Statesman if you don't like it. It's much more your natural home.

Jolly Roger

"I think you have defined yourself by your own ignorance "

How so? The standard of written English on the internet is appallingly bad. The only reason for this is poor education (which also applies to non-native English speakers), or people who are stupid or lazy. What other reason would there be for justifying badly written English?

"You would not even get the seat warm if you came for an interview"

If you used the same standard of written English on your CV, you wouldn't even get an interview.

I see you are still using commas incorrectly. After having this elementary lesson in grammar pointed out to you several times, I can only assume you are either willfully ignorant or just plain stupid. If it is the latter, I apologise. It is not right to mock the afflicted.

phil

Hopefully we have now heard enough from both noa and his pal roger and we can get down to putting our thoughts about this Euro crisis to one another without the necessity to insult those whose views may differ .
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My view is that we are where we are and must make the best of it ,although I have never been happy with the idea of an all encompassing super state .On the other hand I did see the difficulties of traders and multinational partners trying to make sense of the currency differences not only when buying and selling ahead but also when drawing up their balance sheets at years end .When I am in Europe I see clearly how easy it is for people to use their currency and those that have the biggest problems are those like us who are dependent on the value of the pound .The pensioners for instance who live abroad have been hit immeasurably by the decrease which I think has gone from 160 down at one time to 103.---What to do? -honestly I do not know ,it seems so much depends on Germany and those that I know from that country are heartily fed up with it ,as to why we are expected to contribute ?,maybe someone can tell me .
----
I have to say I have never wanted a referendum ,because the complexities are so large that the ordinary person can have little idea of what is best for us ,my preference is for a cross party panel of what I would hope are experts ,would advise us ,after which perhaps a referendum would be appropriate .
----
I do hope others will put their thoughts here and use this thread for the purpose for which it is meant ,and which has been the tradition here for many years without the sarcasm and insults which have crept in recently .Penny, Kate A ,Stanley ,where are you ?If you read any of this my best regards .I miss you .

phil

1-

Hopefully we have now heard enough from both noa and his pal roger and we can get down to putting our thoughts about this Euro crisis to one another without the necessity to insult those whose views may differ .

--------

My view is that we are where we are and must make the best of it ,although I have never been happy with the idea of an all encompassing super state .On the other hand I did see the difficulties of traders and multinational partners trying to make sense of the currency differences not only when buying and selling ahead but also when drawing up their balance sheets at years end .When I am in Europe I see clearly how easy it is for people to use their currency and those that have the biggest problems are those like us who are dependent on the value of the pound .The pensioners for instance who live abroad have been hit immeasurably by the decrease which I think has gone from 160 down at one time to 103.---What to do? -honestly I do not know ,it seems so much depends on Germany and those that I know from that country are heartily fed up with it ,as to why we are expected to contribute ?,maybe someone can tell me .

----

I have to say I have never wanted a referendum ,because the complexities are so large that the ordinary person can have little idea of what is best for us ,my preference is for a cross party panel of what I would hope are experts ,would advise us ,after which perhaps a referendum would be appropriate .

----

I do hope others will put their thoughts here and use this thread for the purpose for which it is meant ,and which has been the tradition here for many years without the sarcasm and insults which have crept in recently .Penny, Kate A ,Stanley ,where are you ?If you read any of this my best regards .I miss you .

phil

2Noa
June 2nd, 2010 9:03am I have just written a post that you may or may not read ,personally I do not care as it is not the likes of you who I wish to address -You continue to call me "phul" which only shows most people what a "fool" you are ,so should we really take any advice that you wish to hand out -stick to the sheep old son ,you will be more at home with them .

----------------

Your ridiculous remarks about the new statesmen are merely repetitious as you are well aware ,so hopefully if you mange to read my last effort you will in future contribute some common sense rather than the insults and sarcasm for which you are by now renowned .

phil

Jolly Roger
June 2nd, 2010 9:10am ---- I suppose I must admit to being stupid enough to correspond with those like you whose only contribution here on a thread about economics is one of of sarcasm and ignorance I have asked noa to tell us what expertise he has in any field other than supercilious nonsense ,so I might as well ask you too. In what field have you contributed to our society ,if any,and why do you not address the subject of this thread,rather than take up so much space in bolstering your needy ego ?We used to have many interesting posters here ,which I alluded to earlier ,but recently we are assailed by those like you who come here not to inform and debate but merely to insult -it is very boring roger ,but I have to admit fun to put you in your place regardless of whether you like my commas .

----

btw I never needed a cv as I founded and ran substantial companies with very happy employees ,and I contributed considerably to our tax system and my community ,can you say the same roger ?-never needed to place commas to do this my son.

---

Try the euro or Keynes ,you can find them in Wikipedia and you may find a few bits to educate you in something useful .

3

---------------------

Have you considered how insulting your remarks are to those who suffer from dyslexia and those who contribute here who have not had an education in the English language ,but nevertheless have contributed much to science ,medicine ,engineering and many other fields ,but perhaps do not know exactly where to put a comma ?The supercilious behaviour of you and your pal roger is insufferable in its ignorance ,and you have never told us where your expertise lies -I am assuming you have done something useful for society other than defining how rude a person can be whilst contributing nothing of value

phil

2Noa
June 2nd, 2010 9:03am I have just written a post that you may or may not read ,personally I do not care as it is not the likes of you who I wish to address -You continue to call me "phul" which only shows most people what a "fool" you are ,so should we really take any advice that you wish to hand out -stick to the sheep old son ,you will be more at home with them .

----------------

Your ridiculous remarks about the new statesmen are merely repetitious as you are well aware ,so hopefully if you mange to read my last effort you will in future contribute some common sense rather than the insults and sarcasm for which you are by now renowned .

Jolly Roger

"suffer from dyslexia"

Oh please, you aren't going to try claiming that you have Dyslexia? Dyslexia has absolutely nothing to do with learning to put a space after a comma rather than beforehand.

"not had an education in the English language"

Well don't worry, we are trying to provide you some education! It was fairly apparent that you are poorly educated, but it is never too late to learn! I can only assume that you are very old, as you insist on calling me "son". I hope dementia has not yet set in?

"but perhaps do not know exactly where to put a comma"

The thing is though, I have not even attempted to explain where and when to correctly use punctuation. I have only attempted to point out that you put a space after a comma, instead of before. I was merely trying to help you write posts that did not make the readers eyes bleed, but you seem to be incapable of learning something so simple.

phil

Jolly Roger
June 2nd, 2010 4:31pm -oh dear your back sonny,I SEE ITS 4.30 and you obviously have nothing to do ,probably why you never tell us what you can do .sigh nooo roger I am not dyslexic but others here may be and by trying to insult me you demean them too.Why not do something useful or at least try ,so far we have not seen a word on any subject other than your attempts to look clever and you fail miserably every time -Actually I would rather you did not stop as I find it very amusing to put you down and so long as the moderator has patience with us I will continue
----
-May I suggest you try reading a book by the late Victor Mollo where he describes someone just like you "a supercilious youth from Oxbridge who thinks he is so clever that he always outsmarts himself ,a boy indeed whose future is already in his past" Send your address to the Spectator and I will buy it for you ,otherwise run along sonny you are becoming too easy meat :) and I am beginning to feel ashamed at taking advantage of you -noa will have a place for you, he likes the New Statesman ,sounds very suitable for a mind like yours .:)

Jolly Roger

"a supercilious youth from Oxbridge who thinks he is so clever that he always outsmarts himself"

That is all fascinating, but I didnt go to Oxbridge. In any case, we are trying to teach you elementary grammar, which you normally learn in primary school. You don't need to go to a red brick University to learn the basic rules for punctuation. Did you somehow manage to miss these lessons?

phil

Jolly Roger
June 3rd, 2010 9:28am -Of course I never thought for one moment you went to oxbridge -heaven forbid ,but the description did fit dont you think ?
Do you really think I would want to take lessons from a one trick pony whose only claim to fame is that he thinks he knows where to put a comma ? We certainly have never heard whether there is anything else you can do to earn a crust ,and if you are relying on punters coming for lessons on comma placing ,things can only get tougher for you .
For amusement only ,I remember an advert on tv showing a succession of young men leaving a room with a sign "SPARRING PARTNERS" holding their swollen jaws and with black eyes ,followed by the voice of NASEEM HAMED shouting NEXT!! --It reminded me of you roger -NEXT.

Jolly Roger

"but the description did fit dont you think ?"

Well let's see:

"a supercilious youth from Oxbridge"

I didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge and I am not a youth. So hmm, it's not resonating so far.

"who thinks he is so clever that he always outsmarts himself"

I'm trying to explain basic punctuation to you. Do you really think that I consider it "clever" to know how to use commas and periods correctly? I would expect that standard of grammar from a child. I was taught how to use commas in primary school and in all honesty, I had never really thought about it until now, when confronted with your abuse of the English language.

"Do you really think I would want to take lessons from a one trick pony"

It is not just me trying to explain this to you though. Noa tried, and so did Rip Van Winkle. You even said "RVP helps and I appreciate it". Do you really appreciate it? RVP was saying the exact same thing as Noa and I, yet you chose to ignore his simple advice on how to correctly use punctuation. Knowing the correct placement of commas and periods and how to construct sentences takes a little bit of practice, but understanding that you put a space after a comma and not before needs only be pointed out once for most normal people to learn from the mistake.

"SPARRING PARTNERS"

This is barely the equivalent of shadow boxing. Its actually tragic that you think you are somehow sparring with me intellectually. I actually feel bad for trying to help you correct your English now, as it is becoming apparent that you are mentally deficient in some way and completely incapable of learning the simplest of things.

phil

Jolly Roger
June 4th, 2010 9:25am Thanks son I do appreciate the chance to exchange views with you -its refreshing because normally I have to spend my time with intelligent people .RVP was polite ,and amusing as you probably did not notice ,both you and noa were ignorant in the extreme .Your commas seem to be the only thing you know about as we never hear about anything else in spite of my questions to you -Its not my business if you lay around all day thinking of punctuation ,but if you know anything else why not share it with me -
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Do I offer to teach you economics ,social behaviour,history ,politics etc ? NO! , so why do you think I would be interested in taking lessons from one with such a limited field .When I was first at work I had to spend time with a senior who only knew about Arab dhows-he was very strange and terribly boring ,the best time was when he fell asleep at the desk -he also reminds me of you .
----
I notice you are becoming desperate now and have sunk to calling me mentally deficient,maybe so ,but no doubt you are an expert on that condition so it is worrying -ta ta rog can,t see for laughing ..which I hope is also the case for the moderators who are being very kind to us ,but maybe its because I do write on other threads about serious topics, and I try to contribute to make this a better world .You could try too ,you may feel a lot better for it .

Jolly Roger

"RVP was polite ,and amusing as you probably did not notice"

Sadly you still ignored every single bit of constructive advice he supplied. Commas for apostrophes, commas without spaces, commas with spaces beforehand, even periods and question marks do not escape from your abuse. Incidentally, four hyphens are not used to denote a paragraph, ordinary whitespace will suffice.

"Your commas seem to be the only thing you know about"

I know plenty of things on a lot of different subjects. Is there any point discussing them with an illiterate? You seem unable to improve your use of punctuation even after gentle instruction from Rip Van Winkle, so what is the point in even trying to discuss anything remotely challenging with you?

"can,t see for laughing"

Well they do say simple things amuse simple minds. I personally find it sad that you find your own ignorance a laughing matter.

phil

Jolly Roger
June 4th, 2010 11:48am ----I will say one thing son ,you are game .keep being shown for the silly boy that you are and keep coming back for more -insults by the yard and never a word for the world assembled here to find out what you do know -nada,nisht ,niente it seems -tell them-I have no idea if anyone is watching all this but I think your corner should pull you out to avoid further punishment and you are so far behind on points ,your ears must be falling off-hasta luego rog -au voir- shalom -arriverdeci .you speaka dose lingos, compis -ahoy ,rog let us know ,maybe you can fry a mcD chip ,at least its an honest days effort and no commas needed .You can address me in Spanish, French ,Italian, Swedish ,Hebrew ,German or Slovak .,ANYTHING PAL JUST TELL ME YOU KNOW SOMETHING OTHER THAN YOUR COMMAS !!!!-Oh and try not to call me names it hurts you ,not me ,I am sure everyone else is laughing if they can be bothered to read this tosh .
Just had a thought ,some of my pals at the gym are looking for a sparring partner ,one that does not hit hard and is a bit slow witted ,pays not bad -interested ? Let me know your weight ,minus your head of course, might break the scales ,no need to take out the brain ,it would not effect the weight . Just bring your shorts we will provide the bandages and someone will carry you home ,promise .

Jolly Roger

I managed to wade through that horrific wall of text and you actually managed to use punctuation correctly in two places, well done! I have highlighted them below in brackets to make it clear:

".You can address me in Spanish(, )French ,Italian(, )Swedish ,Hebrew ,German or Slovak .,"

Congratulations! It seems that you are slowly managing to get the hang of this. Keep trying; I'm sure than in a month or two, with careful patience, you might be able to string a coherent sentence together! It was disappointing that you saw the need to use both a period and a comma to end the sentence however. It's like two steps forward and one step back isn't it?

"never a word for the world assembled here"

The world? Really? It should be quite apparent that no one else is bothering to read this interaction any further. The only posts for the last few days have been from you and me.

"but I think your corner should pull you out to avoid further punishment"

You keep wanting to end this conversation with pleading cries to the moderators. It seems a shame, as you do finally seem to be learning something.

phil

roger you are becoming more and more silly ,and now incoherent ,you seem even unable to understand that my plea to the moderator is to allow me to continue showing you up for what you are -a very spoilt child, I am bored now to the extreme with you as you never present the slightest challenge. So I will leave you now to do whatever it is that makes you happy -one can only guess .

Jolly Roger

"a very spoilt child(, )I am bored"
"slightest challenge(. )So"

See, you can learn with a little effort! I'm welling up, I feel so proud. Keep on plugging there champ, you will get there in the end. There is no need to thank me, it is rewarding to see a struggling novice grow and learn.

"So I will leave you now to do whatever it is that makes you happy"

It takes a big man to concede defeat as you have. I applaud your maturity.

phil

Jolly Roger
June 4th, 2010 5:31pm -You sneaky little so and so -I bet you thought I would not look ,and actually I did not intend to, and then instinct told me you would try something underhand ,why did I think that:)-I have yet to see someone who has been consistently battered be declared the winner -I think the last time was about 70 years ago when two ton Tony Galento got slaughtered by Joe Louis in double quick time and said afterwards "I moidered da bum"-are you related ? No point in answering because this time you will really be talking to yourself.A wally is a wally is a wally rog see no commas and you have proved that you are that wally -got it rog over and out and no full stop either but I will miss the fun at your expense of course

Jolly Roger

Ahh Phil, it seems you have a lot to learn about Internet arguments as well as punctuation. Never say "I am leaving, I am bored now" and then come back to the discussion a couple of posts later. It completely undermines you and confirms that you werent bored, or leaving, you just knew you were looking like a chump, so you left while desperately trying to save face.

"No point in answering because this time you will really be talking to yourself."

Yes Im sure. You *really* will be going this time? Uh huh, and Im equally sure you wont be back to see if you somehow "won".

"someone who has been consistently battered be declared the winner"

The thing is that none of your pitiful 'jabs' have meant a thing. You tried playing the "internet tough guy", which came across as completely laughable in a discussion about punctuation. You accused me of being an Oxbridge youth outdone by my own cleverness, which missed the mark by miles, especially when there is nothing particularly clever about having the literacy levels of a child.

"even if one.s grammar is not up to scratch"

Yes, I saw your post on the CoffeeHousers' Wall. At least you acknowledge that I am correct, even if you wont admit it here.

The funny and tragic thing about this discussion is that my initial post was not intended to be confrontational. Command of simple grammar is extremely important if you expect to be taken seriously based only on your written word. Like it or not, your 'wall of text' posts with no punctuation or paragraphs immediately convey these messages: Badly educated, illiterate, probably not too bright, unlikely to have an opinion worth reading.

If you choose to ignore the advice to work on your basic grammar, that is your prerogative of course. Just be aware that every time you post, that is the image you are projecting to the reader.