Lights in the gathering darkness

Joe

One feels so helpless, and ashamed of the spineless British government who stand up on the world stage and aid and abet those who would see Israel destroyed. Well Im British and though Im not Jewish I am proud to call myself a zionist. If I were a young man I would hope I had the courage to stand up and fight for Israel if need be. Jews have a right to live in peace within their own state on the site of their ancient homeland.Their faith and their laws are the bedrock of our own Judeo Christian culture and democracy. They are the only genuine liberal democracy in the entire middle-east. Why, why why do so many seemingly rational educated people want to betray them???

Joe Strummer

It is irrelevant how many concessions Israel makes for peace as its enemies will never be satisfied. Sorry, make that they don't ever want to be satisfied. Which is just another reason for Israel to trust no-one but themselves in the fight for its very survival.

H Montfort

Newsflash 16th June 2010:
Turkish troops in pursuit of Kurdish rebels have crossed into northern Iraq and killed four militants.
The Turkish military said air strikes were also launched against rebel positions deeper inside Iraqi territory. The offensive took place after rebels made an unsuccessful attack on border guards.
Turkey has been fighting insurgents of the Kurdish Workers Party (PKK) for more than a quarter of a century.
The group is considered a terrorist group, not just by Turkey but by the US and the EU.

Unbalanced response! Breach of international law! Aggression! Indiscriminate slaughter of innocent civilians!
Baroness Ashton, Mr Hague, pundits – speak up, speak up, wherever you are.

No, it was not Turkish peace activists, that incident was last month; this was Turkish army and air force. No Israeli soldiers were involved, that was last month also. No Palestinians were killed or hurt, only Kurds.
Oh, you don’t want to think about it, you want to minimise thought?

We might despair of pusillanimous politicians and pandering pundits, but as Ms Philips timely tells, there are beacons of sanity.
Their numbers are growing, and there are lesser lights as well. On every populated continent there are groundswells of indignation against the mob of malignants (or malign ants). In our time of instant communication of factual opinions, the demagogues – who thrive on monopoly – cannot prevail.

Rob Rhyner

Mel: I agree matters look pretty bleak, but there's no way to determine that we are in an endgame.

If the sloppy/malicious/ill-informed thinking of the mainstream has become even more uniform of late, that's still a ways away from The End.

d1carter

It is shameful that more of those lights are not shining from my here in America. There are many unseen and unknown lights with many of the American people, the shame is that there are precious few in our government. This, we must change.

Veracity

You are my King and my God .You command victories for Your people.Only by Your power can we push back our enemies; only in Your name can we trample our foes, I do not trustmy bow;I do not ount on my sword to save me . It is You wno gives us vitory over our enemies; it is You who humbles those who hate us. Oh God we give glory to You all day long, and constatnly praise Your name . Psalm 44 v 4-8 (NLT)

Trevor B

I am not so sure that hatred of Israel is the key issue. I think it is fear that is driving current day politics -- fear of war. We are reliving the 1930s, and Israel is threatened with what happened to Czechoslovakia. It comes from a desire to avoid or postpone a confrontation with Islam.

Annie Loyedeer

Well said, Joe. The west needs to realize, as I think Jose Maria Aznar articulates, that we are in a war against wrong, injustice, murder and tyranny neatly brought together in the sort of fundamental Islam we see in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Af-Pak and increasingly on our own streets. It's the same war we in the west fought against Nazism and communism. Islamic terrorism is the latest manifestation of this evil, all the more powerful for having a legitimacy denied the Nazis and communists. Joe talks about fighting for Israel - you can. Write to your MP, local paper, tv and radio station. Back Israel, argue her case down the pub, at church, at work, where ever you are. Ultimately we are engaged in a struggle between right and wrong. The pen is mightier than the sword. This is exactly what the muslims have realsied with their flotillas and riots. Get on camera, get in print, be persuasive and peaceful and retain the moral high ground that is the habitat of judeo-christian aspiration.

Daibhidh

What other nation victor has conceded ground to its defeated enemy?

AY

Only facts.

Iran is under strict economic sanctions.

Hamas yields to the pressure to stop violence. In MSM that is presented as "Israel bows to the pressure to lift blockade".

Jihadis are being battered in AfPak full stop.

For the last 3 years NATO military casualties in the war with jihadism exceed Israeli casualties in about 10:1.

Israeli Arrow/Green Pine anti-missile system is being integrated into NATO air/missile defence.

Turkey.. well we will see how this Osman Nazi project ends. Remember Saddam.

Future is bright, just read less newspapers. BTW "Evening Standard" is pro-jihadi crap, distributed for free. Don't touch it, and you will be happier.

William Boyd

Worth making a couple of points I think if the Spectator may oblige me with a contratry view.

First about 'the mistake' of your first extract. Over three historical eras the Jewish people have had an autonomous state in Palestine for a total of some 800 years, most of it before the conquest of Britain by the Romans and rather less in total altogether than the slightly less than 1000 years that have elapsed in the UK since the Norman conquest which itself was accompanied by a genocide (in some areas, notably the North-East, a complete genocide) of its then native Anglo-Saxon population.

I offer this observation simply to place a perspective on the 'homeland' argument for the existence of the Israeli state.

Secondly there is presently no (nor neither for the forseeable future) existentional threat to Israel. It's superior armed forces (not to mention its nuclear arsenal) guarantess that.

Annie Loyedeer

William Boyd. I'd like to agree with you. However a nuclear Iran, a supine West and a resurgent Islam are threats enough. The late Menachem Begin once said that when, back in the 1920s, Adolf Hitler wrote of ridding the world of Jews no one took him seriously. Hitler was regraded as being on the lunatic fringe of Bavarian poliics. Yet his ideas are still current in the east - Mein Kampf is sold widely in most Arab capitals. Begin went on to say that when Muslims talk of doing exactly what Hitler did we should take it very, very seriously. No one should be complacent about the nature of the struggle for freedom and democracy. Israel is at the forefront of that struggle whose antagonists are even now plotting the deaths of our troops and our people in Europe and America. I like your imputed comparison between the Norman conquest and radical Islam. Does that make Robin Hood an Israeli?

Neil Turner

Veracity 6.36

Amen. As A Christian Zionist, I believe that things will get much worse for Israel.

I know that Coffee House is a "political" blog, and sometimes feel uncomfortable making Biblical points.

However, you cannot explain Israel without the Bible.

There is no doubt according to my 35 years of studying Scripture, that The Lord God of Israel wants the people of Israel to cry out to Him. He will let the temperature rise until they have no-one else to cry to.

Then it will get interesting

In the mean time, those who curse Israel had better heed the prophet Balaam's words "I will bless those who bless thee, and I will curse those who curse thee"

I suggest we read our newspapers with a Bible inone hand

Robert Page

Funny how the US, which has supposedly abandoned Israel or is even leading the lynch mob based upon which text you read, continues to supply copious amounts of sophisticated military hardware to that very same country.

Emmet Sweeney

What other victorious nation has been rquired by the "international community" to concede land to an enemy which refuses to sign a peace deal and prosecutes a terrorist war against the civilians of the victorious country? Imagine if, at the end of WW2 the Germans had refused to admit defeat and had continued a guerilla war against the Allies - including bomb attacks against civilians in France and Britain. Would the Allies have been inclined to withdraw from Germany and to leave the Nazi Party in power? I think not! Yet that is precisely what is being expected of Israel.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

William Boyd wrote:
June 18th, 2010 8:01am
"Worth making a couple of points I think if the Spectator may oblige me with a contratry view.

First about 'the mistake' of your first extract. Over three historical eras the Jewish people have had an autonomous state in Palestine for a total of some 800 years, most of it before the conquest of Britain by the Romans and rather less in total altogether than the slightly less than 1000 years that have elapsed in the UK since the Norman conquest which itself was accompanied by a genocide (in some areas, notably the North-East, a complete genocide) of its then native Anglo-Saxon population.

I offer this observation simply to place a perspective on the 'homeland' argument for the existence of the Israeli state.

Secondly there is presently no (nor neither for the forseeable future) existentional threat to Israel. It's superior armed forces (not to mention its nuclear arsenal) guarantess that."

Thanks for this acute observation. Very helpful.

I remain, however, a little confused about your point. Are you suggesting:

- israel has no right to exist?

- that it has but not rooted in any historical claim ?

- that it does but is a guilty of genocide?

- that it does but is lying re the intentions of Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran - to name a few - whom it believes, not least because of their frequent (enough) written and verbal proclamations, to wipe Israel off the map?

- that the last point is true, but since none of these actors have the ability actually to wipe Israel off the map, Israel should relax and , and..and..not sure..um..return to the armistice lines of 1949, in "accordance with International law"; or return to the Partition Boarders as envisioned by UN resolution 181; or, or..

Please clarify because I have no dount, like those on the flotilla, you want nothing than to feed the hungry and fight for the oppressed of our world.

Rabbi

We should all take heart from what God said to Abraham in Genesis 12,3. Just looking at the 20th Century, it's fair to say that God certainly cursed Nazi Germany.

Derek Pasquill

And William Hague and David Miliband as a pair of unlikely Chuckle Brothers are ventriloquised by the putrid banana that is the Camel Corps (aka FCO).

David Booth

What you must remember is that there will always be people and organisations that the "Chattering Classes" feel they can pick on and bully. Currently their vitriol is directed towards Israel and the Catholic Church.
Why ? Because these two organisations expose the shallow thinking and nastiness of what passes for principle's with the Liberal Left.
Israel and the Catholic Church hold up a mirror to these people who do not like the image reflected back at them so like children the try to smash the mirror.
Remember a Liberal is only liberal as long as you agree with him and if you don't he turn into a bigoted bully.

logdon

Obama's rating in the US is tanking. In Israel he's a virtual pariah with something like 5% support. That's good news. The blinkers are off.

Half the problem was identifying the enemy and hubristic Hussein has, by showing his true Farakhan/Wright colours certainly been identified.

Meanwhile Netanyahu seems to be growing in stature as Israel, at last 'gets it'.

I don't know how many of you have seen Caroline Glick's brilliant flotilla spoof on We are the World but its gone viral on You Tube who first of all tried removing it (at who's behest one may ask) then after a tsunami of complaint had to reinstate. Again good news.

We are nearing the end of the phoney war. Fasten the seatbelts because the real one is fast approaching.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Robert Page
June 18th, 2010 9:29am
Funny how the US, which has supposedly abandoned Israel or is even leading the lynch mob based upon which text you read, continues to supply copious amounts of sophisticated military hardware to that very same country.'

Funny, indeed..just like Israel supplying "copious amounts of sophisticated hardware to that" Islamist country, Turkey.

Wicked and curious world, innit?

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Logdon: I fear you are right ..unless Emmet Sweeney rides up on his white stallion to save the day with his extraordinary command of history.

Edward in the USA

Joe asked "Why, why why do so many seemingly rational educated people want to betray them???"

Education is no protection from having a fascist mentality. See all the academics, intellectuals, scientists, doctors who worked for the third reich.

P.Jay

Contrary to the views recently expressed by the Syrian president the best chance of avoiding war is to make sure that Hamas is not allowed to gain access to powerful weapons which would most certainly be the case if the blockade did not exist.

Carl

For once I agree with Melanie, Daniel Greenfield's article is truly desperate.

ahem

This endgame all right; it smells like 1939.

It is a shame there are so many cowards in positions of power in the west. It is also a shame that mankind is so deeply affected by fashions in thought--apparently, cultural suicide is in vogue. Relatively few people have the stones to stand against the crowd. We'll see who has courage.

And then, of course, there are the effects of the execrable ideas of Rousseau, Marx and Gramsci. I hope they--and all the professors who promulgated their evil ideas over the last 60 years--are roasting in hell.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

In my last post I mistakenly referred to Emmett Swenney. I meant William Boyd, of course. Apologies Emmett.

Derek BLADES

Daibhidh, June 18th, asks "What other nation victor has conceded ground to its defeated enemy?"

The allies did it after World War II. Austria, Finland, Japan, Germany and Italy were all returned intact to their original owners.

More interesting to me is why you asked.

Derek BLADES

Rabbi refers us to Genesis 12:3

If memory serves me well, Genesis 12.3 reads something on these lines "Now the Lord had said to Abram: Get out of your country, from your family and from your father's house, to a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

My problem, Rabbi, is that I do not believe that God ever spoke to Abram. Frankly I am astounded that anyone still believes nonsense like this.

Rabbi

Derek BLADES ..... to each his own. I like to think that the survival of the Jewish people over the past 5000 years, in the face of all manner of tyrants and extermination plans, has been due to something more than just blind luck.

Mike Stone

Ahem. What has cowardice got to do with it?

There is nothing cowardly about deciding that a country at the far end of the Mediterranean is not vitally important to British srategic or economic interests, and hence not worth supporting. Such an opinion can of course be mistaken, but has nothing in particular to do with courage or the lack thereof.

From what I can see, the boundary between Christendom and Islam is the Mediterranean, and has been all along. There have been occasional incursions both ways, with the Moslems invading Spain in the 8C and the Balkans in the 14C, while Christians held the Levant for a while during the Crusades, and colonised N Africa and parts of the Mideast in the 19/20Cs. But over the long haul, these intrusions always get reversed, and things settle back toward the Mediterranean boundary again. Not good news for Israel, which is definitely on the wrong side of it.

Miles Teg

Derek BLADES
June 18th, 2010 10:54pm
"The allies did it after World War II. Austria, Finland, Japan, Germany and Italy were all returned intact to their original owners."

Go learn some history. One third of German territory was ceded to Poland and Soviet Union. Japan lost all it's pacific island including south Sakhalin and Kuril islands to Soviet Union, not to mention Korea and Manchuria. Finland lost 10% of it's territory to Soviet Union. Italy lost it's African colonies and some Islands in the Adriatic sea to Greece. More recent occupation that no one talks about: Northern Cyprus by Turkey, Abkhasia and Ossetia by Russia, Tibet by China. It's easier to slam the Jewish State, after all it's Jewish.

Adam B.

Blades wrote:

"Daibhidh, June 18th, asks "What other nation victor has conceded ground to its defeated enemy?"

The allies did it after World War II. Austria, Finland, Japan, Germany and Italy were all returned intact to their original owners."

You really show your ignorance Blades.

Germany had a huge chunk of its territory (the whole of Prussia) taken away. Millions of Germans were expelled from what is now Poland and the Czech Republic. No-one has called for the return of these lands, and the Germans have not set up terror groups for the past 60 years blowing up Polish cafes, restaurants and buses. Instead, they got on with their lives and built a successful nation.

Palestinian "nationalism" has always been about destroying Israel, rather than building a state. That is why no-one called for a Palestinian state when Jordan occupied the West Bank (having ethnically cleansed the Jews from Jerusalem and Hebron) and Egypt occupied Gaza between 1948-67.

Admit it Blades, you've got it badly wrong. I see your ignorance extends beyond your poor knowledge of the Middle East.

Billy Hippo

Michael Stone and the Mediterranean boundary -
this boundary moves when 10% 20% 30% of the European population is muslim. This makes our situation different.
You can listen to Mark Steyn's talks on demographics on YouTube
Eg by the year 2015 50% of the Soviet troops will be muslim

Augustus

Those who accuse Israel of breaking international law are arguing from a false historical perspective. For since the dawn of history every life and death struggle has tended to become total ruthless war, and to spare no-one. All members of an enemy group and their belongings are a target. A scorched earth policy, which targets not only combatants, but also non-combatants, has been around for thousands of years. Poverty and famine were often the result. In recent times, in both world wars, Germany tried to destroy convoys
destined for England loaded with military and other goods. Tens of thousands of merchant seamen were killed by torpedo or bomb explosions, or were burnt alive, or drowned. In WW2
numerous bombers were deployed by both sides to cause as much damage as possible to both buildings and people, often with
definite military objectives. And in the ME Israel has targeted the houses of terrorist
suicide bombers in which the next of kin lived who may have had little to do with the husbands, brother's, or son's actions. And there were good reasons to do this. One assumed that the destruction of the enemy's people and belongings would have the effect of lessening their capacity to continue waging war (not always the case, as for example with the WW2 bombings). The seamen on the allied convoys may not have been members of the military, but they played a vital part in maintaining the war effort. And by destroying family homes of suicide bombers
Israel would have been putting the enemy under pressure by having not only to recruit new terrorists, but also to find money to re-build their homes. Equally Israel didn't intervene in the Gaza flotilla in order to punish civilians, but to prevent a future corridor of military supplies. History shows that when civilian targets
become an opportune way of achieving maximum effort, then total war is the result. Against
the instinct of self-preservation, and the will to win the legalities of war become
powerless concepts.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Derek Blades: "My problem, Rabbi, is that I do not believe that God ever spoke to Abram. Frankly I am astounded that anyone still believes nonsense like this."

...and not your only problem, Derek. Perhaps a chat with the rabbi would do you good.

Mike Stone

Billy Hippo. Even if you're right on thta (which I doubt) what on earth has it to do with supporting or not supporting Israel?

Your demographic "war" will presumably be won or lost in maternity wards across Europe, and no amount of military action around Gaza or the Jordan Valley (or FTM in Iraq or Afghanistan) is going to make the slightest difference to the outcome.

Incidentally, where did you find these "Soviet troops"? There have been no Soviet troops (or indeed Soviet anythings) for over twenty years.

Adam B.

Mike Stone

What point are you trying to make? That Israel shouldn't defend itself, you should defend itself but not with British support?

Please elucidate.

AY

Augustus, - who would disagree, certainly that's an alphabet of politics that is only needed to be explained becasue of this campaign of delegitimization of Israel.

One can also mention the Iranian "floating hospital" provocation project that, according to Debka, they plan to anchor soon, close to Gaza's territorial waters, and shuffle "patients" back and force with Gaza, by small boats.

Israelis will eventually find difficult to resist this flow of "peaceful" invaders - their Navy's size and budget isn't stretchable. But, if any boat from these flotillas will ever succeed to dock in Gaza, - tomorrow one should expect swarms of ships stuffed by weapons and terrorists sailing to Gaza, and the day after, flotillas of "Palestinian refugees" heading to Tel Aviv and Haifa, to exercise their lawful rights of return and bla bla bla.

At some stage, Israelis will have no choice but to sink these uninvited "humanitarians". However, the more realistic option is to go for organizers of that peaceful terrorism. Which raises chances for another round of high intensity actions in the Middle East. But again what is the choice. Aggressive religious idiotism, as any other vicious idiotism, isn't possible to fix, and should be met and overpowered by force.

Augustus

I'm glad to see that Turkey is being reprimanded by both parties in the US for its anti-Israel and pro-Iran politics. They warn that this will have consequences for Turkish/US relations, and Congress has threatened them with a resolution officially calling the death of a million Armenians by the Turks genocide.

Meanwhile, as the Iranian flotilla passes through the Suez Canal, Egypt has decided not to go along with Israel's request to halt the flotilla, citing international accords. So
Israel will have to deal with whatever threat that convoy imposes when it approaches.
Now all that remains is for the US and the EU to apply economic and financial sanctions against Iran really hard. They could make a start by asking Switzerland to freeze Mullahs bank accounts where I understand
some of them have hundreds of millions stashed away. They may all look a bit rough, but they aren't short of a penny or two.
The real endgame, of course, is when that terrible regime topples, as topple it surely will.

Erasmus

And you're another light in the darkness, Melanie.

Thank you for lucidity and passion. Thank you for defending western civilisation.

Adam B.

Apologies for typo - "you" should read "or".

Derek

"Derek BLADES
June 18th, 2010 10:54pm

Daibhidh, June 18th, asks "What other nation victor has conceded ground to its defeated enemy?"

The allies did it after World War II. Austria, Finland, Japan, Germany and Italy were all returned intact to their original owners."

No,wrong; not "all returned intact"; and in any event only after a surrender had been signed.

Now, if the Islamofascists would like to discuss surrender terms...

Derek

Mike Stone June 19th 8.24am

Oh, I see. A far off country of which we know little.

Mike Stone

Adam B.

My point is that Israel should get such British support as it is in British interests to give. There may be a British interest in supporting it, but the case is unproven to say the least.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

I think that israel should declare the following:

"- Israel is 100% committed to the peace process. To that end, it is fully committed to the realisation of a full and final settlement of the Palestinian issue, as well as all outstanding issues with Syria, based on International Law

- it supports wholeheartedly the two state solution and will do its utmost to achieve it.

- it has halted all further settlements in Judea and Sumaria in order to encourage all parties immediately to sit down together and negotiate for Peace.

- At the same time, Israel heartily welcomes and international inquiry into the flotilla to be comprised of legal representaives of all members of the UN Security Council as well as Israel."

I have no doubt whatsoever that Ahmedinejad, Hezbollah, Erdogan, Hamas, Fatah and Syria - along with all their supporters - will hail such an initiative and support Israel in its unprecedented efforts for Peace.

:))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Adam B.

Mike Stone

I don't agree. Israel's fight is the UK's, and the West's in general. Israel is justthe canary in the mine. If you think the Islamists are going to stop with Israel, you are mistaken.

Derek puts it very well with the Chamberlain quote.

Jack

For decades, Israel supporters have answered even the mildest criticism of Israel with the most incendiary of charges -- that of racism.

Today, the worm has turned. The international Left has succeeded in branding Israel itself as a racist regime.

As one of the past targets of the "Israel criticism = racism" gambit, I have to say that I am not above taking some pleasure in the new development.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Jack: "Today, the worm has turned. The international Left has succeeded in branding Israel itself as a racist regime.

As one of the past targets of the "Israel criticism = racism" gambit, I have to say that I am not above taking some pleasure in the new development."

jack of al trades, then, but clearly master of none?

God on ya, mate! A gift for peace...mmmm

Adam B.

Jack, the charge that any criticism of Israel is labelled antisemitic is itself false. Perhpas you can provide an example?

Israel is the most liberal, multicultural and tolerant country in the entire region. To believe otherwise is to depart from reality.

Adam B.

Of course, no example from Jack.

QED.

In the Wildernes in America

Melanie, thanks for sharing some intelligent views about Israel and its dilemma. However, it will take more than words to protect Israel and its people, and Britain and the U.S. are not predisposed to go all the way in defending her. Israel will have to go it alone much like Poland tried to do in 1939. My hope is that the U.S. will try to help "under the table" with logistic, communication, and weapons support. My hope, and the hope of all decent, civilized people, is that Israel succeeds in destroying Iran's weapons capabilities. Once that is accomplished, then civilization can again encourage all the talk and opinion.