The weakest link

Norm

Is there no one who will stand up to this madness. No wonder the BNP has been so quiet lately for they have to do nothing to win support from the ordinary man who fears for his way of life and Country when Brown and Cameron say nothing against Islam.

david skinner

Barring a miracle, an intervention from God, it sounds as though it is not if, but when, Islam will make Britain the first Islamic state in Britain. They have already spiritually claimed Westminster Cathedral. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/taveners-homage-to-allah-angers-catholics-453322.html.

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/119 ( Prince Charles a muslim ?)

Muslims are no fools. They have done their homework; they have boned up on the inconsistencies , inner contradictions and folly of evolutionary humanism, the world view that forms the basis of the present government and, like cat playing with a bird, afford themselves endless amusement in manipulating it to their own advantage.

Edgar Davidson

At least the money pouring in to Universities to fund Islamic extremism is mainly being provided by the (foreign) extremists themselves. Unlike the initiative that Home Secretary Jacqui Smith is going to announce (this is reported on
www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1304_jacqui_smith.shtml)
Basically it appears that the Home Secretary's answer to the problems of Pakistani imams indoctrinating congregants in their mosques with Islamic extemism is to ... pay to import even more Pakistani imams. Here is what the article says:

This week the Home Secretary will step up the government's "Prevent" campaign—its battle against Islamic extremists who preach hate and indoctrinate potential jihadi recruits.

On Wednesday she will announce a new deal she struck with the Pakistani government on a visit last week. It will allow respected moderate Islamic clerics to be brought over from Pakistan to help British imams combat extremism in the Islamic communities.

Mrs Smith explained: "The vast majority of British Muslims have a Pakistani heritage. If we work with the government there we can win the arguments.

"We need to do more to tackle those places where radicalisation is developing—in prisons, schools, higher education—so that people are getting the right messages about what it means to be a British Muslim."

She added: "We will also work to ensure we identify vulnerable people being groomed for terror—in the same way we protect young people from being dragged into crime and abuse."

http://edgar1981.blogspot.com/

d

This is absolute madness!

Austin Barry

It's here, along this fault line, that you can see the disconnect. Everyone knows that appeasing Islam is nuts except a small cadre of bleeding heart, limp-wristed masochists who feel that abasement is Islam's due. The only question is where and when the tipping point comes.

Joyce- Los Angeles

The Brits have lost their will to live. We feel very sad for the mother country, that refuses to stand up for itself and it's people. All those centuries of greatness, just wasted...and for what? A renaissance of the Dark Ages.

Antoine

The cradle of enlightenment reason? Hmm...okay you can have a go at arguing that one but I have a feeling that the French might have something to say about it - particularly if you reject Darwin...

Roy

With British history of prevailing through adversity I always thought God must be on Britain's side. I still hope, but with the implanted rot, the disease taking a good hold, does it make any odds with repeated self shootings in the foot?

guy leven-torres

This Government and the entire political class are making war upon their own people....

Time for revolt I think!

Geoff Miller

What more can one say Melanie.

Living in Britain is becoming more like being at the Mad Hatters tea party by the day.

Does anyone in Government have a clue? They seem incapable of any rational behaviour.

Alcuin

Well said Melanie. Our elite are playing a very dangerous game of denial and appeasement. They muust know that this sort of thing cannot go on, yet seem to be afraid of doing anything to stop it. Against all the lessons of History, they seem to think that it will just "blow over", like Brown thinks of our economic woes. The voters will be left with little choice but to vote for anyone who will, even the BNP. And some will start taking direct action.

The end of this road, unless our authorities act soon, is violence on the streets far worse than that of Brixton, Oldham and Bristol. It is utterly cowardly and irresponsible of all our main parties that they are silent on these highly contentious issues.

Ann

More hilarious nonsense from Skinner. He'll tell us next that Rowan Williams, a torch bearer in the capitulation to Islam, is an 'evolutionary humanist'. This has nothing whatsoever to do with evolutionary humanism, or atheism, or any other of Skinner's hallucinatory pet hates: it's to do with ignorance, to which the Church of England is a fully paid-up subscriber.

jameshigham

This is Brown's satanism - everything turned on its head.

david skinner

My guess, for what it is worth, is that, yes, Musliims, may be coming to the west out of a genuine desire for freedom from their own oppressive countries. They may be even nominal in the their beliefs, but for reasons of needing a sense of identity, they remain stuck in a Muslim ghetto. However, these nominal, law-abiding and hardworking Muslim families find, when they arrive here, that the values of freedom of speech coupled with a morality that once under-girded, western European family values, have all but disappeared under an oppressive, militant secular humanism. They find a civilisation that is in terminal decline: http://www.akegreen.org/ (Pastor Ake Green was sentenced to one month in jail)

Muslims, too, are alarmed at pornography, promiscuity and the sexual mayhem being promoted in schools and in the mass media. Why would they? Why should they integrate into something that they find deeply offensive? Where can they turn to, if not to their own religion that offers easy and straightforward sets of moral rules?

But it does not only attract wavering Muslims; western Europeans who also are seeking an escape from the increasing anarchy of western civilisation. Of all countries that are held up as the socialist, secular model, Sweden is seeing increasing number of their own women converting to Islam: http://www.thelocal.se/8772/20071012/ (5,000 Swedes have converted to Islam. Many of these converts are women.):

“It started when I was 9 and wanted to perform evening prayers but did not know who to pray to, so I started looking for answers, and found all the logical answers in Islam.”

[we are]“searching for the ‘right answers’; to pin down what gender, family, society and religion are.”

http://www.thelocal.se/9880/20080205/ Swedish state to train imams

http://www.thelocal.se/9021/20071106/ Building set to start on Saudi-funded Mosque.

Muslims working from Islamic states are well onto making Britain the first Islamic state in Europe. They have already spiritually claimed Westminster Cathedral. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/holysmoke/may07/westminster.htm
And the future head of the Anglican Church, Prince Charles http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/119

Muslims are no fools. They have done their homework; they have boned up on the inconsistencies, inner contradictions and folly of evolutionary humanism, the world view that forms the basis of the present government and, like a cat playing with a wounded bird, afford themselves endless amusement in manipulating it to their own advantage.

I do not think that on its own the banning of any further mosques and Islamic schools is the answer; It needs to be coupled with Christians coming out of their own ghettos, their own comfort zones, taking on the secular humanists and presenting society with a clearly defined, revolutionary, alternative society. Both Islam and secular humanism are in a state of war with Christianity. It is about time we woke up to this fact and put on the armour.

phil

David Skinner why on earth are you writing about religion here it,s nothing to do with that, we are talking about militants, and militant regimes ,criminals.not ordinary law abiding Muslim families -we are not indulging in semantics as you do with Nick ,admirable though that is .We need to get real as the youngsters say .We are fighting a battle with a totally different culture who are intent on our destruction and going to church/synagogue or even the mosque is not going to win it.Facing up to reality is essential not turning the other cheek .The meek will not inherit the earth ,sad though that may be ,only defending one.s family, nation ,and way of life is going to win this battle ,so much as I may admire your kind and compassionate message it will not work here .It is militant Islamists (hijackers of their own religion) who blow planes out of the sky and kill innocent children not secular humanists whatever they may be .

David M.

"The cradle of enlightenment reason? Hmm...okay you can have a go at arguing that one but I have a feeling that the French might have something to say about it.... "

Antoine, get a copy of 'Intellectual Impostures' by Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont out of the library. Most amusing.

1:24am??? - get some work done! or are you in training for 36 hour shifts in the NHS?

Thinkster

David Skinner: Spot on. I have been thinking the same thing. And what is ironic, is that Melanie (like most of us) is also disgusted with the collapse of our society - and therefore, indirectly (not quoting her!) probably sympathises with how they feel about 'us'. I returned from 10 years in California in 2000, and from arrival to today, have been shocked and disgusted with how low we in the UK have and continue to sink. I kept a log of each shocking 'event', from seeing full frontal nudity during prime time TV (in manner that was obviously designed to offend), to the general dumbing down of everything, trash media / celeb culture, rejection of ethics/religion, criminals getting better rights than well meaning law abiding citizens etc. America may have it's faults, but it's people and government have two interelated characteristic lacking in modern Britain: Honor + Dignity. And that is the key to the problem. Yes, radical Islam may be a threat (of our own making?), but as per my comments above re the overlap between Islam (and conservative Christianity and Judiasm) and the beliefs of some conservative Spectator readers, there are also overlaps between some Islamic beliefs and the honor based values of conservative America. (Hence, some may speculate Bin Laden is in cahoots with the Bush Admin to actually enforce some changes through, well, we'll leave the methods up to our mutual imaginations!) Oh, it's all so complicated!!! What are we going to do? Where's the messiah when you need him?

George

“Muslims, too, are alarmed at pornography, promiscuity and the sexual mayhem being promoted in schools and in the mass media.”

If this is the case do so many Saudi men like to holiday in Paris with ladies of the night? Why did Panorama run a show few weeks back on the Muslim men acting as pimps for white british prostitutes?

Why can Muslims be “alarmed” at the West but escape judgement when it comes to the British taxpayer paying for their polygamy?

It’s as specious an excuse that jihadi terrorsists are “offended” by binge drinking and drug culture. Whenever I hear this nonsense I want to ask why do the Taliban allow the poppy crop? Why is Iran so full of drug addicts?

Why Why are there newspaper reports that in HMP Belmarsh Muslim inmates expolit the privacy of prayer rooms to swap drugs with each other that they’ve hidden up their backsides?

What about all those Muslims in British prisons with drug dealing convictions?

These excuses are all a helpful diversion away from the fact that jihad is inspired by religious fundamentalism.

The other old chestnut is “they’re dispossessed”. Like spoilt brat playboy Osama was ever dispossesed, or like the 7/7 bomber who left £125,000 in cash in his flat was dispossessed.

No more excuses, please.

EyeSee

If as the Americans suggest, Bin Laden is hiding out in a cave somewhere, he is an idiot. He could easily be running his terror empire from Islington (and among friends too), with a nice slug of benefits. Well, he can't 'work' can he?

Joe Strummer

I gave up when I read the other week that the famous British childrens television favourite puppet, Basil Brush, was under police investigation for "racism". That was the final straw for me.

Britain is finished.

Gordon Neil

In nature parasites can so infect an organism and so disrupt its nervous system that its behavior becomes inexplicably bizarre, irrational and self defeating. I wonder, is it reasonable to apply this to our body politic ? Our Governing classes appear to behave in increasingly bizarre ways. The Treasury pours obscene amounts of money into one Bank that got itself into difficulties but has consistently refused to adequately fund the Nation's defence. The Foreign Office issue Rules of Engagement for our military (Gulf and elsewhere) that can only be described as bizarre and self defeating. Its minions promotes dialogue with and appeasement of those whose ideologically driven imperative is to destroy us. The Home Office has degenerated into a body even the government admitted was unfit for purpose. Overseeing an immigration service which is a farce and a judiciary whose judgments seem ever more designed to baffle the ordinary citizen and undermine his confidence in the rule of law. It's policy for community cohesion (multiculturalism) could not be bettered as a blueprint for societal conflict and breakdown. Even the Government's overarching philosophy for promoting our national interest is to implement a marxist inspired policy of internationalism which effectively and again bizarrely leaves us unable to act independently in our own national interest. I think it is definitely time to call in the doctor

Mike

Professor Anthony Glees is Director of the Brunel Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies at Brunel University. He argues that the European Convention on Human Rights needs to be overturned and the Government should have the power to imprison people without trial. In other words 'Internment'. Would this mean a Guantanamo type facility on British soil or worse a Concentration Camp? Now what memories and images does that conjure up? For me too awful to contemplate.

Perhaps we should understand that Muslim extremists are not only subverting the West but moderate Islam also, and what is happening in England should be a 'wake-up call' for ordinary Muslims to reclaim their faith before it's too late.

oliver

Am I missing something, and is there is some intelligence reason for keeping Qatada?

Verity

Another winner from Melanie. I wish I had made a note of it, but the other day, someone in the American government said that Britain is now the weakest link in the war against radical islam.

Chris Ashton

When I read about the antics of the politically correct nutters who are running the UK the situation is ALWAYS worse than I had thought it was. As the ship of state continues to flounder towards the rocks of civil conflict and the captain and his crew, at best, twiddle their thumbs the dimensions of the unfolding tragedy increase. When the horror finally arrives it will turn out to be bigger than a dozen Northern Irelands on mainland Britain. It's not a pretty picture. But who is paying attention?

Verity

Chris Ashton - They are not "twiddling their fingers" unaware. They are using islamic radicalism as a weapon to control our own people. It is deliberate. I wish people would stop shaking their heads over each new assault, and saying, "Unbelievable! Can't they foresee the consquences?" Yes, of course they can. Our society is being destroyed and the muslims are being employed as the weapon of destruction.

Socialism has always been toxic and the British, who by and large understand this, allowed Blair to slither in under a banner of "I'm not really a socialist". Anyone with half an eye could see exactly what Tony Blair is, but sufficient numbers were gulled for the destruction of our society to get underway. The pace at which they have managed to subjugate 58m people brought up in freedom is mind-boggling.

Darren

Labour might well benefit from some time on the opposition benches. This silly rules of engagement stuff demonstrates how far the ship of state has drifted under their watch.

Ravi

If we declare candidly that we are "Islamistphobics" and NOT "Islamaphobes" then it is possible to unite public opinion behind the correct title and separate our fears from any phobia about peace loving Muslims. I believe Melanie's comments have always been about Islamists and Islamism and NOT Islam per se. Islamism is the assertion of the rule and practice of Islam as superior to anything else and seeks to displace any culture/religion that is not Islam. Islamists are the people who promote it. Jihadists are the people who take action.

"Islamaphobia" is the term that the Islamists like to throw as if to imply racism. The way to legitimise our fears is to declare that we are Islamistphobic and are against Islamism. The point being made by other commentators I read on the Web is that people can say "I am against Zionism" but that doesn't make me Antisemitic. Well one could be Islamistphobic and not hate Muslims.

david skinner

Dear Phil, for a start I can assure you that there is nothing kind or compassionate about either me or my message and it also concerns me that you differentiate “ordinary, law- abiding Muslims from terrorists. I would advise you to read the following article by Walter Williams. http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5134
It seems to me, and I may be mistaken, your view of spirituality is that somehow it is a remote and private thing , disengaged from the real world of western technological, secular society. In my view there is nothing more dangerous than dismissing the spiritual life that exists in each and every human being. There is no better camouflage for an enemy than to be invisible and to be believed by those under its power not to exist. There certainly is power in the Koran and we dismiss it at our peril.

I am sure that foreign tourists, cycling and hiking in Germany, during the nineteen thirties thought that the Germans were well behaved and home - loving and yet these same, smiling and civilised people committed some of the worst atrocities ever experienced in human history. At the conclusion of the World War 11 the good townsfolk of Belsen and Auschwitz were forced to go and see what their countrymen had done.

I have had face to face debates with atheists, friends and member of my own extended family and I can assure that though they denied the spiritual world, nothing other than a supernatural force could account for the irrational and volcanic anger that erupted whilst discussing, for example of homosexuality. Even as I write the same problems are being faced by our friends and relative in Australia.
http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2008/04/14/thoughts-on-islam-and-australia/

Alf Tupper

Ann.

The old adage about your enemy's enemy being your friend?
It's simple: do you want to live in a society which has proven it has a place for both the religious and the secular; or one which is knocking at the door, and which as you are well aware, will hoy secularism straight into the skip and your hair into a veil?

I think Roy above has raised a salient point here. He refers to the British habit of starting wars in a weak position, buckling down, striving together and then against the odds, pulling off a glorious 'Boys Own' victory.

Perhaps this is what those in power are hoping for? Perhaps this is what those who are powerless and know what is forming up against them, are desperately hoping? For it is they who will do the suffering.

It's as if there is a set script and some jolly songs for every war that threatens Blighty, and it always ends on a happy note.

But this one is different.

Much talk is given, naturally enough, to what the IRA used to term, the 'spectacular'. There has been, 9/11, 7/7, Bali, Madrid etc. This 'spectacular' form of aggresion is indeed, all our security services, our government and especially, our media, are engaging with. But the force that will take the nation away is one which is working insidiously at our everyday lives. Street by street, school by school, council by council.

It's called democracy and we hold it to us dearly, but, coupled with our abortion and our pill, it is to be our end.

Best wishes from Khalifax

Dave M

I've often suspected much of this has to do with reported falling testosterone and even a drop in fertility amongst males in western society. If scientists are telling us this testosterone factor is a genuine medical phenomenon then we can assume attitudes and self confidence in society as a whole is going to be more defeatist and appeasing. Can you imagine the Spartans, for example, handing out health and safety leaflets to the troops before battling the Persian army or holding classes and lectures in which Persia was depicted as superior to democratic Athens or militaristic Sparta? In those times people were more robust, assertive, physically stronger and competitive (hence the Olympic Games we get from Greece)
Even the Brits were known in the forties and fifties as a tough, robust nation but what happened since that time is very much open to speculation. This is a country of weak, wishy-washy leadership that reminds me of the fate of the Estruscans who became too soft to defend their state so were absorbed by the Romans.

david skinner

Democracy was not a Greek invention, since Greek society was run by an aristocracy supported by a lot of slaves, it came from the Jews: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EJ28Aa02.html

For them democracy was not a consensus of opinion, simply a matter of mathematical averages; and if we continue along that track, with proportional representation, and if Muslims outbreed the host nation they will hold the balance of power.
The Jewish nation that was called out of Egypt and which had a covenant with God was guided by laws that He had placed on their heart, but God did not simply say ,” I have given you my laws; that’s it and I am off; you are on your own now.” He was, is and will be active in the affairs of the Jews and all of mankind. Some one said history means His story. Indeed events predicted hundreds of years before they occurred panned out exactly as written, not in some vague kind of way, but precisely . The way history is going, those remaining events that were predicted but which have yet to come to pass, look more and more probable.

The point I am trying to make is that we ignore the spiritual forces at work in the universe at our peril. A train locomotive might run because of a whole series of interconnected systems, but there is a driver with a will, a purpose and destination in mind.

Islam cannot be defeated by superior technology, especially if the Muslim is capable of using that technology against us. It was our own planes that crashed into the Twin Towers. It can only be defeated by an infinitely more powerful spiritual force. The question of free will and predestination are, I think beyond any human understanding, but this I do believe; the God of Abraham has written the script; he knows the end from the beginning, but how we get there is not fixed. The second World War was won on the beaches of Normandy but the conclusion had to be reached in Berlin. How the allies got there, either the hard way or the less hard way, all depended on how much they remained in contact with HQ. Britain needs to make contact with HQ again or it will find itself to be merely a hapless victim of a war that it never understood and an enemy it never recognised.

Frank Pulley

Dave M

That's it, in a couple of paragraphs. Well said.

Trouble is, it's a council of despair because once your balls have gone you can't grow 'em back and at the moment ours are being eaten as sweetbreads in the bistros of Brussels.

Mike

Roy: 'God is an Englishman' or used to be.

Alf Tupper: The British have become 'feminised' and as a '1960's lover' I'm qualified to judge! The day 'the pill' became available was just about the day that Cilla Black opened at the Savoy Grill, and the world turned upside down. Flippant, I know, but just take a moment to think about it. I think David M has it right - I recall those years of the 40's & 50's when conscripted boys, in the Services for only 2 years, went to war to fight a just cause in Malaya and Korea, and returned as men.

phil

David S thank you for your response .I,m not really clear what you are saying to me but I always get the feeling that both you and Nick are on the side of righteousness,whether spiritual or otherwise .my personal trip is to commune every day with my God but to decide for myself what I think is right and wrong guided by my family background and experience of life and people -in fact to do to others as I would be done by usually keeps me "kosher"-I do see Muslims as normal decent people ,but ISLAMISTS definitely not .,I don't even see them as Muslims ,so now I hope I have made myself clear where I stand -we are at war with these people -the whole of the west and Israel and we do not have a choice they have made that choice for us ,we have to stand and fight or just lay down -is that a choice ?

Frank Pulley

To enter a more positive note, notwithstanding the appropriateness of the title of this thread and the comments of those of us who bemoan the loss of our national muscle, it is comforting that our younger cousins on t'other side of the Herring Pond still seem to be pretty well equipped. But as Gerard from American Digest muses - do we really want Hillary or Obama in charge of the swords:

http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/truth_slant/question_of_the_4.php

I hope the American electorate thinks not, or 'God's plan', that some of you subscribe to, might get very complicated indeed.

david skinner

Dear Phil, Nick and I are still down in the basement debating and though we are agreed there seem to be moral absolutes, we differ as to their source. He, I believe - and I hope I am not misrepresenting him, - thinks that they are a human construct. Even though he has killed off an absolute judge, the question arises to whom then are we accountable if we break absolute laws. He inconsistently and selectively suddenly wants to appeal to some referee, by wanting to apportion blame for a decline in moral standards to the left wing government. My contention is that as soon as you get rid of an ultimate authority that is absolutely good and just, our failings and shortcomings become merely inconveniences, or crimes of breaking conventions and taboos, or the manifestations of a proscribed instinct which can eliminated through psychiatry or chemical therapy. All this dehumanises us; it takes away our dignity and responsibility as human beings . Humanism becomes inhuman. And that is precisely what the government is doing. Next Wednesday 23rd April, in the House of Lords, it will pass the amendment to the criminal justice and immigration bill, that will make it a criminal offence, carrying a maximum of seven years in prison, for inciting homophobic hatred. The government has taken over our conscience and freedom to think or question and given it to Stonewall, the homosexual lobby who are dictating to Ed Balls. They have power in government that most MPs can only dream of and in five or ten years we will see the consequences of all this, if not sooner. In fact to see where this is going have a look at this:
http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/index.php/2008/04/16/brave-new-world-brazil-the-noose-tightens/

KateA

David Skinner:

The 'absolute authority' you prescribe strikes me as akin to the Muslim concept of Allah, overseeing every aspect of the individual life - religious, political and personal. Clearly there is no space for 'Free Will' or personal morality in this faith position.

I am equally confounded by your examples of a 'homosexual/humanist/secularist' conspiracy. I am reminded of the 'old' and lately resurrected, 'Masonic/ Jewish' canard.

It is a strategy we have seen in extremist regimes (both left and right) throughout history - the targeting of a small, law-abiding minority as scapegoat for all the ills of the nation.

Further, the empathy with Muslim hostility to the democratic process; based, it would appear on a shared aversion to pornography, drunkenness, homosexuality; convinces ONLY that you advocate a form of pernicious, pre-Enlightenment, fundamental religiosity.

History documents, such fundamentalism as responsible for: the burning of heretics, the Inquisition, the 'lie' that 'the Jews murdered Christ' and the resulting genocide in Europe. And much, much more ... Africa, South American Indians, Aborigines, North American Indians .....

With respect for your dedication, but not the 'authorities' you offer as evidence, I sincerely hope you are pedalling a 'lost cause'.

Nick Kaplan

David; you write “the question arises to whom then are we accountable if we break absolute laws,” if there is no “absolute judge?” The answer is that we are accountable to society and the state who legitimately gain the right to punish those who break the law, when that law is defined with regards to an absolute moral code. You are right to say this moral code must have some basis or else it becomes dangerously susceptible to relativism and ultimately rejection thus entitling people to do as they alone see fit. My contention however is that if morality has its basis in rationality, starting with recognition of the truth that we are all separate human beings with our own lives to lead (which leads to the Kantian ‘Categorical Imperative’ that we cannot use people as means but must instead treat them as an end in themselves), then it will be far stronger and more sustainable than that based on a belief in the supernatural. The problem with religious morality (aside from the fact that Gods existence cannot be proven) is that it is non-universal; testament to this fact is the existence of multiple religions each with differing Gods and moral codes. Therefore any Religious morality that you prescribe will only be acceptable to those who believe in the particular deity concerned, if no deity is believed in by certain individuals in a society which holds that morality only comes from God, those individuals may even come to believe that morality should not concern them. This inevitably leads to the comments by left-wing relativists such as the Arch Bishop who believe that, due to differences in belief, different groups should live under their own morality. Instead morality constructed on a rational basis which starts with the recognition of certain fundamental truths like the separateness of individuals, is far harder to refute and much more widely applicable. Especially important in such a moral code is the recognition of Liberty of the individual which allows us to accept both your right to hate homosexuals (so long as you don’t act on this belief) and a homosexual’s right to do as he pleases in a consensual relationship. The incorporation of Liberty into a moral code means that it will not be particularly prescriptive, and thus will be widely acceptable, however, because it would be based on a humanist recognition of the value of life, it will prevent the most important immoral actions such as violence, coercion and murder (one could even make a case against abortion if it were to be shown that life started at conception).

Phillip Reece

This country gets more ridiculous by the day, If Adolf Hitler had fled here after the 20th July bomb plot failed and we had the laws we have know he could not be sent back. absolute madness.

Verity

Ravi - Ignorant, illiterate socialists like, oh, Jacqui Smith, Harriet Harman, Jack Straw, Margaret Hodge, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, et Cie, aside, a phobia is an irrational fear. It is not an intense dislike or hatred. So now we know who didn't read Greek at school.

Frankly, anyone who has a phobia about some forms of Islam has his head screwed on the right way.

david skinner

It seems to me that the justification that you put forward for an absolute morality, is conscience but for which there is no rational or scientific explanation i.e. no one has a found a gene that tells us to give up our seat on the train or help the old lady across the road., or even more important when not to give up our seat or help the old lady. Neither can convention or something our parents taught us be a rational basis for absolute morals because we have all been brought up in different cultures. Finally what is expedient or of benefit to society cannot necessarily be classed as a reasonable basis for upholding morality - especially if that society is evil. What happens when conscience contradicts rationality? A good action might appear at the time not be to the benefit of a society, but it might be the morally right thing to do and bad action though at the time appearing to benefit a society might be an immoral thing to do.

Ideas of moral excellence do not come from rationality but from the conscience and for which no one can give a scientific explanation.

It is interesting that you will not allow for the superiority of one religion over another; or allow for one religion to come closer than another other to universally accepted perfection and yet you allow for a society or state to do this. That sounds like irrational prejudice. One thing I have noticed is the deep irritation that secularist have with faith schools that achieve better results than secular schools around them . They insist that faith schools are achieving these good results to causes other than faith - simply because they want to believe that and that the faith school give up the golden goose but go on laying golden eggs.

Not that I agree with playing with the numbers games but if we were to ask how many people in the world had experienced love joy and peace from being related to religious belief as opposed to no religious beliefs we would find that religious people far outnumbered humanists, agnostics and atheists who make up a tiny minority of the world’s population
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png
http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html (Major Branches of Religions Ranked by Number of Adherents).

Finally Nick you might find this helpful. http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=293

david skinner

Nick this is for you http://www.crosscards.com/ecards/v/73997dd7-6dae-4e12.aspx

Garry Johnson

I was watching Question Time last week and Harriet Harman was on the panel.

Someone asked if Enoch Powell MP was right when he forecast the problems we are now facing in this country due to mass and uncontrolled immigration.

When Harman was asked for an opinion, her eyes glazed over as if someone had flicked a switch and she started to rant about Powell being a racist and bigot, or words to that effect.

No logical discussion, no concern for the effects of all this on the population, just political PC rant.

The left have had it all wrong for at least three decades, and they will never admit their errors of judgement, so I guess we are in for a lot of unrest and eventual civil strife.

I feel sorry for the decent law abiding immigrants in this country because when this fascist leftist government use the jackboot to suppress debate and public opinion they are the ones who suffer the backlash.

Fabio P.Barbieri

I knew that someone would resurrect the poisonous ghost of Enoch Powell sooner or later. Look, it does not matter whether certain cultural (not religious) groups are or are not bad news, Powell was an odious racist. The people he had it in for were mostly Christian West Indian immigrants, and if you actualy go and read his loathsome speech, you will find it underlain by the assumption that people of a different colour are "of another sort" and that it is that biological difference, rather than any cultural or moral divide, that makes violence inevitable. I do not think that even the BNP would seriously support this kind of trash these days. Please, folks, drive a stake through this undead creature and let us discuss the evils of Islam (a religion, not a race) from a decent perspective.

Ann

So, Fabio, basically you don't like E.P. for having spoken the truth and you are resorting to the standard Leftie airhead gambit of calling him a racist because he did so. This nonsense may be bought wholesale at Islington town hall, matey, but not here.

Fabio P.Barbieri

Ann honey pie, keep your nasty little words to yourself. No, Ann darling, I am not a leftie. If you want to use group insults, you may call me a wop. And, Ann sweetheart, I call EP a racist because he is a racist. If you can read his damned (and I mean it) speech without being revolted by the assumption that people with darker skins are "of another sort" than us independently of what they think, believe and do, and that racial war is a biological inevitability, then, Ann honey pie, you are a racist yourself. There is something especially repulsive about Powell's racism because it is aimed mainly at black West Indians who had been brought up and educated to believe that Britain was "the mother country" - that is what they used to read in their own textbooks in their schools - and who had shed their blood in her service during the Second World War. To Powell, the ancient connection with Britain of her oldest colonies mattered less than the colour of their inhabitants' skin. Not that I expect you to pay any attention, since the speech clearly pleases you as it is, but you will not find one single real reference to the real problem - differences in religion, not race - from beginning to end. It is a repulsive piece of trash which also commits the heinous sin of misquoting Virgil (the "river Tiber foaming with much blood" is foretold exactly because the Latin rabble, in revolt both against their king Latinus and the omens of the gods, want to drive the Trojan immigrants into the sea instead of welcoming them. They will pay dearly for their anti-immigrant stance, of which Virgil clearly disapproves. But I would not expect your likes to know anything about such things as Virgil.)

david skinner

Fabio, during the 19th and last century British missionaries took the gospel of Jesus Christ to Africa. Today Africans are returning to Britain, a pagan nation, to perform the same task. Some of the strongest voices for Christianity in Britain come from black churches . Thank God for them

Ann god loves you , no less and no more than anyone else.

housefrogboy

we just their names as proud off places stretching is still