An Iraqi gets it

Soreofhing

"As three more Israeli soldiers were murdered today at the Nahal Or crossing..."
Melanie Phillips

We just love your balanced reporting and choice of neutral words Mel.
The three Israeli army soldiers were in fact in Gaza on a raid. Soldiers on a raid on foreign soil are "killed" not "murdered".
What you forgot to mention is that four Gazans were killed by the Israeli elite attack force.

However I digress from the other sloppy reporting procedure. Your link to Aref Alwan takes us to the MEMRI website which is a front for an Israeli propaganda organisation which poses as a research institute.
MEMRI has the following illustrious unbiased members:
Co-founder Meyrav Wurmser, a well known extreme Zionist.
Yigal Carmon an ex Colonel in the Israeli army.
Nimrod Raphaeli an Israeli citizen.
Menahem Milson the ex head of civil administration under the Israeli occupation forces in the West Bank.
Whew! What a motley crew of "unbiased experts" to consult, and then to regurgitate MEMRI's selective translations as a serious article under the heading of An Enormous Lie.

The main thrust of Alwan's article is the classical unremitting oppression of the Jews by the Arabs.
This may be true, however it in no way negates the powerfull underlying arguement that Israel now occupies areas which were destined to be Arab areas under the UN Partition Plan of 1947.
This inconvenient fact just will not go away. The West Bank, the Golan Heights, the Sheeba farms and Jerusalem itself were never ever granted to Israel.
They are conquered lands and must be returned if peace is ever to be given a chance in the Middle East.

Robert

The one thing that many can agree on is that we want to prevent another 9/11. This can only be done by instigating a democratic revolution in the Middle East. The Iraq War has brought the first large scale democratic election in the Arab Middle East and freedom of speech. All of this comes with a cost but if this process began 50 years ago, the whole region would be better off as would the wider world.
Or as is said in the column, Arab people will "come up with a new, courageous vision for the region and for the future of its residents".
The alternative is a nuclear disaster in the near furure which is all but certain. I choose an attempt for progress.

Dave M

I just heard this story on the BBC and as usual the BBC account goes to great pains in reporting three Israeli soldiers were killed and then Palestinian children also died (as if the IDF were deliberately targeting them!). Or maybe the Israelis are supposed to twiddle their thumbs and do nothing while rockets are randomly fired into nearby settlements by terrorists? Of course, the terrorists hide behind the same women and children as human shields which is why innocents tragically die in the crossfire. The cold harsh question that needs to be directed to the Islamic Jihadists is why they always seem to use human shields? They did it in the Moscow theatre hostage crisis, they did it in Beslan and they repeatedly fire from mosques so they can show footage of U.S. soldiers firing on a place of worship. Playing the victim and underdog always wins the support of liberals don't you think?

Michael B

From Alwan's review:

"When the Salafi mob in Gaza tied the hands and feet of a senior Palestinian official and hurled him, alive, from the 14th floor, I asked myself: What political or religious precepts must have been inculcated into the minds of these young people to make them treat a human life with such shocking cruelty?

"Earlier, I had watched on TV as the bodies of two Israeli soldiers were thrown from the second floor [of a building] in a Palestinian city. Whether or not it was the same Salafi mob behind that incident, [one asks oneself]: What language, [or rather,] what historic linguistic distortion could have erased from the human heart [all] moral sensibilities when dealing with a living and helpless human being?

"Arabs who are averse to such inhuman behavior must help me expose and eliminate the enormous lie that has for 60 years justified, extolled, and supported brutality."

Yes, that is precisely the long term, inter-generational goal that must ever be kept in mind. Absent that a muddled and morally confused "process diplomacy" will be the never-ending, no-exit state of things.

And Soreofhing, you're conveniently forgetful of enormous historical events, not least of which are the eliminationist strategies and wars and conflicts initiated by those Sunni Arab Palestinians and their Sunni and Shi'a Muslim benefactors and allies.

George

Soreofhing,

You complain about sloppy reporting and then go on to do the same thing. The Israeli soldiers killed were not on a raid. They were killed during a hot chase after terrorists who were trying to place an explosive device on the border fence between Gaza and Israel. And yes, Melanie did mention that Gazans were killed in a reprisal. Maybe you should take off your blinkers and read what she actually wrote.
As for your complaints about the members of MEMRI, your only problem with one of them (Nimrod Raphaeli) appears to be that he is an Israel citizen. Does this mean that no Palestinian citizen can be trusted to tell the truth either?
Finally, you talk about Israeli occupation. Here it would appear that a history lesson is in order. The Sheeba farms and the Golan were not granted to Israel in the partition plan, because they were not part of Mandatory Palestine, so they are irrelevant to your argument. Parts of the West Bank WERE granted to Israel - one example is the Etzion Bloc. However, after the Arabs rejected the plan and launched their attacks in May 1948, the result was that the Jordanians occupied the Etzion bloc. I don't recall anybody pressing the Jordanians to return the territory to Israel.
Jerusalem was not given to the Arabs either, it was meant to be international territory, so it is spurious of you to ask that it be returned.
Finally, why should the 1947 partition plan be a part of any negotiations? The Arabs rejected it 60 years ago and went to war to gain more. They lost. As there was no sovereign power, these territories are now disputed, and as the winner in the war, Israel actually has the strongest legal claim. To the victor the spoils!

elixelx

Soreofhing, Are we to understand that you don't agree with Melanie or Memri?

If so, why not come out and say so openly and honestly instead of hiding behind euphemisms like "well-known extreme Zionist", "Israeli citizen", and "unremitting oppression".

Actually, I'm sure the regular readers of this column, and Melanie herself, would be the first to congratulate you on the truth in your first sentence: "We just love your balanced reporting and choice of neutral words Mel." You get it!

And I totally agree; I love her balanced reportage and choice of neutral words too, as do most of us who come here daily, and are not just drive-by dilettantes!

Wilbur Post

Soreofhing ... thanks for a rundown of what you call the "motley crew" who run Memri.

Would you care to give some examples of Memri's "selective translations" and how they lie?

Israel occupies territories that you mention for various reasons mostly to do with defending itself against aggressors bent on committing genocide. It doesn't have to give any land back in the absence of a peace agreement.

The United Nations is one of the quartet that is encouraging such a peace agreement and your friends the Palestinians promised almost five years ago to arrest and disarm terrorist groups and end incitement. In return they were to get their own state and no occupation and no settlements.

Why are you shooting the messengers like Melanie and Mr. Alwan whilst saying nothing about your friends' abject failure to put at end to the terrorism which is, after all, recognised internationally as a precondition to peace?

Jan

To change direction, the Arab ‘world’ would first need to feel the weight of a profound defeat. Enlightened articles will not be enough. So far, like Germany in 1918, Arabs have only felt setback and humiliation and this has bred resentment, a desire for retribution and a constant need to rewrite historical reality to suit the current political need.

It may be a harsh historical judgement but had Israel behaved less generously after the many defensive wars it has had to fight it would be in a better position. It may have been temporarily cruel, but following the occupation of Gaza and the west bank, should the Arab populations not have been expelled to Egypt and the east bank and these territories annexed? It is now too late but there should have been a heavier price for failed aggression. Something harsh like this happened to Germany in 1945 and peace has been the result because the Germans have genuinely changed direction.

I’m afraid that the western world (and here I include Israel) has been following a wrong strategy with this enemy. We are trying to make it docile by pinpricks instead of getting out the elephant gun like we did in 1945.

Even then, each pinprick is reported by the media as a disproportionate outrage.

field

I agree with Robert. Disaster is a lot closer than many people think. A nuclear disaster in the Middle East, even if it could be confined to the region, would still impact terribly on the UK and Europe - and the rest of the globe. People forget how poisonous radiation clouds are and they travel everywhere.

There is certainly a good case for taking risks to create a democratic and tolerant culture in the Middle East. But the West's policy at present makes no sense. We support and shore up corrupt and unpopular regimes on the Arabian peninsula - regimes which are in a number of cases purveyors of a West-hating , Jew-hating form of Islam.

In Egypt we back a political dictatorship as well.

We are trapped by our history in these false and hypocritical relationships. Most Arabs cna't stand this hypocrisy. It breeds in them a deep cynicism towards the West's motives. One might say a correct cynicism. This cynicism doesn't feed into Jihadism, it also affects the opinions of secular Arabs, who see in the West not a faithful partner in democracy but a selfish pursuer of interest.

This is an age that calls for englightened self-interest.

The world has become too dangerous for anything other than a principled commitment to democracy. I cannot think of a single example of a democracy going to war with another democracy. That is, ultimately, the case for democracy, that of itself it can make the world safe.

It is therefore worthwhile taking big risks for democracy e.g. the risk of destabilising Saudi Arabia and Egypt or losing our oil supply.

That is why a policy for democracy must go hand in hand with a policy of oil substitution.

It must also go hand in hand with a policy of media influence. We need to outbid Al Jazeera, we need to create a huge constituency of support for democracy in the Arab world.

Bob Latchford

Robert, what tosh! What happened when democracy was forced on the Palestinians? Israel and America decided that the wrong party were voted in and ignored the result! What about Lebanon? They have no real democracy...there government is a sectarian government, where the number of seats you can have in the house, and the position you hold in the house is determined by your religion! Despite the Shi'ite being the majority people of Lebanon, they have the least seats in the house and the highest position as shi'te member of the house can hold is Speaker of the House! If there were real democracy in Lebanon, Hizbollah would be the majority party and Hasan Nasrallah would be the President. Lets not pretend this is about democracy dear boy

Ian C

Soreofhinhged, just because the messenger is Jewish does not invalidate the message. It seems as if you just popped onto one of your own high horses as soon as you read this and all it does is obscure the relevance of what is written here, whcih is a common mistake because it obscures what's relevant in the Middle East. If any one has the right to be paranoid it is surely the Jews, and it does not mean that because of this, the Arab world is not out to get them. We know they are, and if they are 'got' by them we will be much more vulnerable. Memri (and Melanie) perform a valuable service in making the world aware of what is going on in Arab media - who has more incentive to do it than Jews? If you had been a long time reader of hers you would have been intoduced to Memri previously and you would know that she is extremely critical of Israeli policy in the West Bank and other matters. As far as the Golan Heights and Sheeba Farms are concerned, if you inforrmed yourself better you will know that these were captured by Israel in self-defence. This is entirely legitimate in international law and is not an issue for the Israelis until Syria makes acceptable peace terms, 40 years after they lost the battle.

Tony Allwright

"Soreofthing" may not like MEMRI and its founders. But unless he/she can demonstrate that MEMRI's translations are false, or provide an alternative source for such translations, his/her point about the identity of MEMRI's founders is specious and irrelevant.

Oh, and if Israel's acquisition of the Golan Heights and the West Bank through military conquest in its self-defence war of 1967 is somehow illegitimate and thus should be reversed, well the Arabs should also vacate all of North Africa and the Middle East bar Arabia. They are there only through military conquest from the sixth century onwards.

Israel, Palestine, Jordan and environs should all be returned to their historic owners the hated Jews.

KateA

Soreofhing - "we just love YOUR 'balanced' responses e.g. "MEMRI ... is a front for an Israeli propaganda organisation which poses as a research institute."

Really? This means that Israelis are not capable of translating accurately? It means that anything translated by an Israeli is telling lies?

Meyrav Wurmser, is an Arabic scholar, whatever her political affiliation. The MEMRI website provides a valuable service in translating ACCURATELY, the political statements of Arab leaders.

Given the Arab Muslim penchant for double-speak (taqiyya), affirmed by Tariq Ramadan in 'Islam and the West':

"I must speak in a way that is appropriate for the ear hearing me...." He advises: "We must know how to speak to those who do not share our history."

Accurate translation of what they are actually saying is essential if Europe is to resist the creeping invasion. Ramadan is the grandson of the founder; his father Sa'id Ramadan, with the assistance of Saudi money, established Islamic centres in Europe - in the first instance, Geneva, London, Munich, Paris, and now too numerous to list here. The MB Islamic Foundation in Leicester is one of Europe’s largest Islamic institutions.

Ramadan says: "When I live in a country ... I respect its constitution. This is an Islamic principle." The codicil follows: a country's constitution and laws must ONLY be respected "as long as there is no social, cultural, economic, or legal aspect in that country that contradicts any Islamic principle."

That's okay then; Muslims are free agents, not bound by the constitution or laws of any European country into which they migrate unless those laws are Islamic! These are the words of the man from whom Canterbury took advice - 'Sharia law is inevitable' in England.

There is NO record of any European Arabic scholar refuting the accuracy of MEMRI's translations.I suggest your post ' Soreofhing' is a glorious example of double-speak, deflection and irrational political assumption.

For further 'accurate' research:
http://www.futureofmuslimworld.com/
research/pubID.55/pub_detail.asp

patricia

"the unmitigated evil that is dominating the Middle East and the world"

Your problem, Phillips, is that evil is not the exclusive preserve of Islamist extremists.

It sits at the heart of the orthodox Jews who sway the balance of power in the Knesset.

It sits at the heart of the Israeli military when it snuffs out innocent young lives without a care.

Yet again, you have tried to gloss over and justify Israeli barbarity.

The more glibly you do so however, the less seriously one takes you, and the more evil you become.

What you don t say is hoe come Israel so easily obliterates

Dee Ranged

Soreofhing - You fool!

The article is manifestly balanced. Note in particular that MEMRI (whom you castigate) has faithfully reproduced the writings of Aref Awan.

Check out the original source before making silly and childish comments.

Tania

Sortofunhinged, what on earth does your attack on MEMRI and its members have to do with the points made by Aref Alwan?

Could it be that you’re trying to divert attention away from some uncomfortable truths, so you shoot the messenger?

In your opinion MEMRI is a “propaganda” outfit, but you don’t give any evidence to support this. Instead you just provide a list of names who seem to be either Israeli, or who have worked for the state of Israel. So what?

Apart from which, what have they got to do with the nub of Aref Alwan’s article? Are you suggesting they’ve put the words into his mouth? Or that he’s a fictional figure made up by this “propaganda” outfit?

I get the impression you’d rather not talk about the contents of Aref Alwan’s piece and instead just want to get away from it by trying to concoct smears against MEMRI.

Dee Ranged

patricia -

"...evil is not the exclusive preserve of Islamist extremists."

Who are you trying to kid?

Alex Bensky

No, I'm with Patricia on this. We must not forget the Orthodox Jews who periodically blow up schools, buses, and restaurants in Arab areas, not to mention the Orthodox Jews who toss missiles onto Arab towns...oh, wait.

The interesting and revealing point Soreofhing makes is that he isn't referring to the 1967 borders which, it is worth remembering, the Arabs never recognized; they always insisted they were merely cease-fire lines, to be crossed when the time was ripe to wipe out the Zionist entity. He refers to land allotted to Arabs under he 1947 UN plan for partition.

So, Soreofhing, and how did Israel come to do that? If the Arabs had accepted that plan the total number of Arabs displaced by Israel at its founding would have been none. But that's the thing about the Arabs and their supporters--they're allowed to start and lose as many wars as they want and suffer no consequences.

Voltaire

This amazingly honest account of the origin and development of islamic jew hatred stands in stark contrast to the crass anti-semitism of the Eurabian media. After yet another attack by Hamastan in which three Israeli soldiers were killed, channel 4 indulged in its usual orgy of sentimental sympathy for the palestinians and self righteous indignation that israel had the temerity to defend itself. Of course the bbc is the benchmark for hamas propoganda in the west but C4 runs a close second.

KateA

Patricia: "Your problem, Phillips, is that evil is not the exclusive preserve of Islamist extremists."

YOUR 'problem' Patricia is that you are an hysteric steeped in cheap sentimentality. The 'children ..the children'.... Who are you fooling? Apart from yourself.

Any interest in the children of Siderot? Any interest in rockets fired on Jewish children day and night? Any compassion for the terror under which they exist. I don't think so.

Palestinian children die because Hamas uses them as human shields; Hamas wishes them to die as fodder for the insatiable appetite of western bigots such as you.

They die because their mothers strap on the bombs and send them out to kill other children. The same mamas who have made videos promising more of their children as martyrs.

They die because the ideology which YOU support 'Loves death'. What are you really complaining about?

phil

soreofhing-------------------------We just love your balanced reporting and choice of neutral words Mel.
The three Israeli army soldiers were in fact in Gaza on a raid. Soldiers on a raid on foreign soil are "killed" not "murdered".
What you forgot to mention is that four Gazans were killed by the Israeli elite attack force--------are you really not able to say soldiers in pursuit of rocketlaunching militants---I am not asking you to say soldiers pursuing militants attempting to kill children ----just a little balance which you seem to want`

Ian C

Try this 'Sortofunhinged' and see which item should not be brought to the world's attention then let us all have your reply as to who else would do it if those with the greatest interest did not.
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=Announcement6808

Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA

It's interesting that some of the negative reaction to your posts is so out of touch with real life in Israel - warts and all:

http://irenelancaster.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/04/israel---tales.html

Spartacus

Prime Minister Gold a Meir once remarked that: "We (Israel) will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us." So say Allwan of us !

Bob Latchford

all this blog needs is crazed quoting of the Torah and it becomes the Jerusalem Post Readers Comments section

patricia

Dee Ranged ;

You ask me who I am trying to kid when I say evil is not the exclusive preserve of Islamist extremists.

Are you for real?

The Spectator might have been turned into a nasty, brutish little propagandist for Israel, but some of its readers are in London, the world's most diverse City. We are not in Israel.

If you want to pretend you are among uncritical friends with similarly subjective and narrow cast views as yours, I suggest you move to Israel.

Maria

Soreofthing, patricia and Bob Latchford seem to find Aref Alwan's arguments irrefutable, because nowhere are they able to dismantle his arguments.

Irish Cicero

Spartacus: Pretty dang funny!

http://libertypeaklodge.typepad.com/

Frank Pulley

patricia

You obviously have an estate agency in Israel; business over there a bit tight too?

Max Kaye

To all those who castigate Israel, I have just one question: If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, would the nations of the arab/muslim world - from the Atlantic Ocean to the Far East - suddenly become beacons of freedom and enlightenment?

Thinkster

Patricia: I take it you have never lived in Israel then? I suggest two years. (From my experience in various countries, it is the minimal amount of time to become familiar with the culture and what is really going on - not how the media portray things - no matter which side of the fence they sit.) Israel is very multi-cultural, the difference between it and London is that London is not (visibly) fighting for it's survival. This is mainly thanks to the fact it is situated on an island that is not surrounded by non-democratic entities based on obsolete traditions driven by ages old hatreds and a fear based ideology. To quote, "To life!" (You have been well and truly duped and I predict that within 1 year or 2 years, you will reach enlightenment and if we're still living in a democracy, post here to say "You know what, Melanie had a point!"

Edward

patricia, sorething, latchford et. al., the videos archived at MEMRI, are videos of real Arabs/Muslims, speaking to their constituency.

These videos are of real people, NOT cartoons or puppet shows or Jews dressed as Arabs, but real Arabs/Muslims saying crazy, racist, bigoted things.

Unless you can demonstrate that the videos are fake, then you must admit that the videos show the ugly side of the people you support.

To blame the messenger (MEMRI) for revealing the shocking message is pathetic.

Moira

Other posters have dealt with some of the land issues Shortofreason disingenuously raises.

Put in the scale of the size of the Middle East, these bits of land are, of course, but the size of pin drops and the reason that Israel controls some of them is because there is a history of Israel’s enemies exploiting the strategic opportunities they afford to launch attacks on Israel.

Of course, Israel stupidly gave in to the crocodile tears that people like Sureofnothing have been sneakily weeping for decades when it withdrew from Gaza a couple of years ago. And what was the effect of that? Why, for the Palestinian terrorists to use Gaza to launch ever more deadly rocket attacks on Israel.

So much for your desire for peace, Soreofhing.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Soreofhing, what a powerful expose' of MEMRI -- I had no idea it was dominated by JEWS. And everyone knows, apparently, that you can't believe a thing that "those people" say. Can you point us to any inaccuracies in what MEMRI has reported, and particularly their report about Mr. Alwan, or do you think you have sufficiently discredited MEMRI by pointing out that Jews of hwom you do not approve do some or all of the research and reporting?

phil

Thank goodness for a sensible moderator otherwise we could not have seen what the crazy man latchford has posted (see below) this is a truly free press and that belonged in "der sturmer" so at least he shows neutrals what he is about-when your time comes dear bob you will have to face up to the maker who looks after both Christians ,Jews and Muslims -I don't think Ladbrokes will be offering you good odds on Heaven --------------quote---------all this blog needs is crazed quoting of the Torah and it becomes the Jerusalem Post Readers Comments section
-

phil

Patricia this site could arrange an introduction to the fascinating person known as sorething, assuming he is of the male variety -we all could attend your betrothal and give you a good send off with tickets from the travel agent you want to use for Melanie- latchford could be your best man .what a trio you would make -really lovable --maybe we could send you to Tel Aviv they would love you there .followed by a blessing at the wailing wall,where you could make all the noise you want - perhaps all voluntary contributions can be offered -what do you say guys ?you will not mind my joke will you? because that's exactly what you are -oh DBC john don't feel left out you can pay up too

Alf Tupper

Soreofhing

Well, you certainly have provoked a response.
Such a pity to squander the opportunity to hammer home your point when so many have lain out their view.

This is a thread and is not utilised to its full if people merely run in, shout loudly and then scarper.

What I really want to hear from you, is a plain statement about Israel and its neighbours, namely, what is your vision for the region?
Is there any place in your scheme for an Israeli state in any form at all?

So. Bolster your case why don't you?

Patricia

You'd be better not bothering. You're just an embarrassment, even to your like.

john doe

Soreothing and Patricia....I personally will not be baited. You're not worth it and time is precious.

Ravi

Soreofhing, Toys R Us is just an organisation who sells toys. Supporters of Arsenal don't support Spurs. MEMRI does what it does. So what does your point actually mean? Zero! Now I agree that as members of IDF they were killed, just as I disagree every time some idot tells us that Israelis murder Palestinians. I regretably think that a fight between armies has some degree of legitimacy.

YA

Soreofthing: Just 2 days ago two israeli workers were murdered in an unprovoked attack on fuel terminal. They were blown by grenades, then shot in the head. Soldiers you mentioned tried to prevent another such infiltration, murder ot abduction. As their commander said "soldiers are the only buffer between terrorists and citizens of Israel". There is no other choice but to confront attacking enemy with arms. "Patricia": "We are not in Israel". Yes "Patricia" you, soreofthing, "Bob Latchford" and so on - are not in Israel, and plese please keep it this way.

S. Jackson

People like Patricia represent quite a large group unfortunately. They are the baying mob created by the BBC and the MSM. They have already made their minds up and will cling to their prejudice and misguided passion even in the face of overwhelming factual contradictory evidence, for as long as possible.

Patricia in particular cannot see that all the words in her hate-filled posts here would be more appropriate if the word Islam was substituted wherever she has written the word Israel.

She is an expert on evil yet has forgotten about the evil that caused 52 deaths in the name of holy Jihad on her own doorstep in ‘the world's most diverse City’. Who is it that ‘glibly glosses over and justifies barbarity’? who becomes ‘more evil’ as they do so? How come Islam ‘so easily obliterates’? That is the real conundrum, and is the one about which she has so little to say.

Ian C

Melanie, It would appear that attacking academics gets them going! Do you get paid by the number of (inane) comments or just the useful ones?!!

rudolph camillo

just happen to notice the front page of the new york times 17 th of april. photograph of wounded palestinian.....no photo of three dead israeli soldiers though..wonder why?

Joe, Maastricht, The Netherlands

Illuminating article, I must admit that I also found it strange that you did not mention the Palastinian deaths.

The article by Aref Alwan was so refreshing, I cannot think of any article penned by a Arab journalist that took such a critical look at Islam, Aref Alwan is a brave man to challenge other Muslims to look at why their religion seems to give the world so many terrorists.

May I add my sympathies to the families of the dead Israeli and Palastinians.

Ann

Because, Rudolph, the NYT is a bit like Al Beeb: mouth-frothingly anti-Israel.

Harvey

I would have thought being called mouth frothing by Ann was like being called ugly by a toad.

Ann

Harvey, with his pathological Jew-hatred, is a fine one to talk. I am proud to be called a toad by the likes of him. We know where he comes from.

PAUL HILL

wHATEVER OUR POINT OF VIEW i'M SURE WE ALL FOUND THE PAGE ONE AND PAGE TWO REPORT IN THE SATURDAY INDEPENDENT A GENUINE MODEL OF BALANCED AND RELEVANT REPORTING OF A VERY LITTLE DISCUSSED AREA OF ISRAELI NATIONAL LIFE

Harvey

Ann - have you considered seeking help. You should, you know..

Oh and for the record, hating Jews is a cretinism but that doesn't make your naqba denying delusions right.

phil

Seeing as its weekend and a little more light hearted a time-I thought I would report that there have been no offers to contribute towards patricia and sorethings wedding and travel plans .nor even a vote of thanks for the suggestion from them or mr.latchford

-I had hoped both Ann and Harvey would have been guests of honour -DBC john would of course have conducted the ceremony .Leslie Frank and Ian C would have offered their services no doubt as a musical trio ,and with Moira,s kosher catering service we would have had a wonderful time -Kate A -it would have been a great pleasure to have been seated next to you -who was it that suggested that?-oh yes ,Mike ,well I like him even if he is a little confused

Ann

A cretin who thinks that Israel was 'granted' this and was not 'granted' that by the UN in 1947, on a partition plan that was rejected in its entirety by the Arabs, should now come cap in hand to the likes of said cretin and beg nicely to be allowed to go back to that defunct plan - this cretin tells me to seek help? That's almost funny.

Adam B.

I would suggest that readers do not respond to Patricia and Harvey. When people speak in slogans, they are beyond reasoned argument. Their terms of reference are couched in hateful language that would suggest unsavoury motives.

Sergey

"They are conquered lands and must be returned if peace is ever to be given a chance in the Middle East."
May be, Arabs also are to return land they conquired during last 1400 years? This will include Egypt, all Palestine, Algeria, Tunis, Livia and what not.

Leslie

Thanks for the thought,Phil :)

Carolyn

Patricia, you have swallowed the hook and the sinker.Israel is no where on the same plane for comparison as the Jihadists/Palestinians practice of barbarity.Israel DOES NOT kill children indiscriminately.THAT IS PRECISELY what the Arabs do.Those are facts.Arabists and Jihadists propaganda always accuse 'the other' of thinking and perpetrating actions only the Islamists do, in reality.They lie with impunity and that is fine according to the Islamic religion when speaking to non-Muslims.
Your accusations reveal an
unbecoming laziness and ignorance. How many Islamic/Hamas/Palestinian children have the Israelis saved in just this last month, especially with major cardiac surgery? How many Jewish children have Arab/Muslim/Hamas
doctors saved? Care to guess?
By merely spitting out the Islamists' propaganda, you discredit yourself in any intelligent forum.By following the lines of Hamas, etc., all you are doing is feeding your own Hate.