Weep for Britain: 1940 this is not

cityca

Cameron is no more nor less than a political opportunist. If he thinks that support of Turkey will advance him, he'll do it. The man has no real principles and people know it, which is why he could not gain a landslide victory over Brown, one of the worst premiers in living memory.

The electorate didn't vote FOR Cameron, they voted against Brown. If it wasn't for Clegg's equal desperation for power at any price, Cameron would still be in the political wilderness.

Hadrian

God help us when ( not if!) the Turks get in to the E.U.
We can barely cope with the ever rising tide of Islamic migrants as it is, never mind the inevitable waves of immigrants their entrance will bring. Our nation indeed is led by ignorant and pusilanimous dolts. One really does fear this coming decade will all but break and exhaust the West, not excluding a USA led by a man driven by loathing of our cultures.

Jean A Evans

I weep Melanie . I weep. Cameron is Clegg's glove puppet and when Clegg is busy it is clear Tonge takes over. The pure ignorance of facts is astonishing . They are of course also parroting Obama as a junior partner would...

Oflife

@Melanie & @Cityca, spot on. A friend who knew of Cameron's history way back to his Oxford days warned that he would 'go with the flow' once elected. My colleague was spot on too. Cannot believe I voted for him, although that was to get the Conservatives to remore CCTV/speeding cameras, not get him into power. So, we lose our CCTV (good), but gain an appeaser. Oh dear.

david elder

Mel, I think you have just got your first postmodernist Tory leader. Maybe someone could use his speech to script a new series of Foyle's War - one in which Britain loses Churchill in 1940 by choking on his cigar and Uncle Sam fights the Battle of Britain with jihadi assistance.

On the comparative religion front: I (protestant) agree that Christendom has often treated Jews abominably. But is Judaism altogether blameless? (Is anybody?) The Israelite conquest of Canaan was pretty gory, and those parts of the Bible pose a difficulty in interpretation for both Jewish and Christian readers. But none of this of course justifies the rabid attitudes of Hamas and its ilk towards modern Israel. Nor does it excuse the wilful naievete of those current Western figures who persuade themselves that the real problem with terrorism or the Palestinian question is Israel or America.

Martin Adamson

Cameron is clearly doing this at Obama's bidding. Turkish membership of the EU is an American ambition, it has never been widely supported in Europe. The tough talk on Israel is again being done at Obama's request, because with very rough elections for the Democrats coming up in a few months he can no longer afford to alienate pro-Israel voters

john Norman

Israel has already shown that its investigation of the Turkish Thugee ship's actions was more rapid than any British investigation of British extrajudicial killings in Gibraltar and Belfast. Have we ever had a British govt. investigation of the ethnic cleansing of the population of Diego Garcia? Should we expect one? Case rests.

We are quite evidently and openly not governed by Churchill's children and heirs but by Petain's would-be nephews and nieces. Shame on this country. We shall never live it down.

The PM is a snake-oil merchant. One who believes we can be bought at any price, even if that means an alliance with a state that has yet to recognise the Armenian Genocide, the ethnic cleansing of 1.300.000 Greeks from Asia Minor in the '20's, the illegal invasion of Cyprus. Turkey in the EU means the possibility of Europe being dragged into a Turkish-Kurdish civil war which has already resulted in the murder of 30.000 Kurds, Sharia law and many more honour murders on UK soil. This is an Oxford graduate, the finest flower of the British aristocracy? God help us.

David Skinner

In short, Cameron is like an overconfident school boy who thinks he knows everything there is to know whilst no one else knows anything . He is an embarrassment for Britain

pistache

Erdogan on the "moderate Islam" name:

'These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it.'

Source: Milliyet, Turkey, August 21, 2007

Interesting, isn't it?

Dixon

HO ho ho...to the many here who were so recently trumpeting the downfall of Brown and their desire for a Dave government, who ignored the warnings of myself and others......TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!!!

Oh how I love that phrase.

Dixon

The funny thing is, all the worst that our enemies (such as Obama and Cameron) can do to us (100 million Turkish EU citizens forced down our throats, for example) will surely hasten the day that real folks simply decide "enough is enough".

Its got to get much worse before anything can get better, and really, every Turk on our doorstep, every mosque in our inner cities, every squat loo in our malls, every unwarranted shooting of an innocent EDL member (todays news from Dorset), every gang of "youths" to run police out of "their" neighbourhood ...only brings eventual awakening a little closer.

Baron

Cameron can say what he wants, the Germans and the French are in the driving seat on the Turkey’s membership, and they won’t let it happen. The bridge the headboy’s talking about is a bridge far too far.

Gary

I'm not overly keen on Turkey, but frankly we desperately need the trade.
The CBI wants Turkish immigrants in this country so it will very likely happen.
Besides, most Turks are like you and me.
Its religious people who are the problem; dumb fools who worship make believe men on clouds.

Amanda in America

Wonderful, Ms Phillips, but may I make a slight correction: the foundations of Western Civ are built not only on Christianity and Judaism -- the Bible, as you say -- but also on the quest for wisdom first pursued in Athens. Indeed, it's the push and pull between Athens and Jerusalem that gave rise to civilization as we know it -- to the concepts of rights and freedoms, to rationality that takes into account human frailty and tries to understand it.

Francis

Cameron might be the ideal person to run a firm of estate agents, but he is clearly not suited to running Great Britain.

Joe

What a creature this Cameron is. His reckless cynicism shines like brilliantine from every pore. I sincerely believe that this man is politically amoral. A spineless toe-licking opportunist. He abases our country to Obama. He sucks up to and appeases our enemies. He panders to the disgusting judophobes and anti-semites abroad and at home without a qualm.Now we learn that Vince Cable is pressing for a "liberal" policy on immigration-in the most overcrowded country in Europe. If I were a betting man I'd lay odds that Cameron will fall happily into line on this one too. Mel is right. Weep for our country. A man as unprincipled as Cameron is deeply dangerous.

Brightonian

Calm down Melanie - you judge too much! The PM said what he had to say for political expediency - the need to get Turkey 'on side', to better our chances to combat radicalism in the Middle East and South Asia. It's a difficult balacing act, but I think what Cameron said was both expedient and right.....The fundamental overriding obstacle to a resolution of the ghastly and protracted Israel/ Palestine conflict is mutual hatred on both sides. This is truly horrible, and a cause of suffering. When you say in previous blogs- I fear in a disturbingly judgemental way - that the Palestinians have no historical, legal or moral rights to what they claim, (all of which can be disputed - remember the Balfour Declaration's caveat that the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palesine should not prejudice the rights of the existing inhabitants - Arab - of the country?)I genuinely wonder whether you have been infected with the self-same virus of hatred which motivates Hamas......I believe in the right of the jewish people to have a sovereign state in Palestine, but equally the indigenous inhabitants must have the same entitlement as well, and Israel must stop colonizing their homeland. This latter point is fundamental!

Tom the Redhunter

Indeed, Melanie. A few years ago I labored under the delusion that Turkey was becoming "an Islamic success story," but no more. Any observant person can only have seen the light. That Cameron has not marks him as blinded by political correctness. So sad.

arkletten

William Hague as Shadow Foreign Secretary was all for Turkish EU membership way before the election. This is longstanding.

Josh

And the apalling irony of Cameron's attempt to create a distorted Islam being followed by extremists and doing so in Turkey is that Erdogan himself no less has denied that there is any such difference between the two Islams. Cameron is a disaster but that was obvious before the election. The world is truly upside down.

Jonathan Hoffman

Cameron is above all focus group driven. I would still rather have him as PM than Brown. At least the Conservatives seem committed to reforming Universal Jurisdiction.

But yes Melanie - this is awful andvery disheatening to those like me who campaigned for the Conservatives.

wolf t.

Stupid people, educated by other stupid people, conspire to elect stupid politicians, leading to stupid political decisions, stupid governments and stupid policies.
The stupidity inherent in a multiculturalism policy leads stupid politicians into stupifyingly stupid positions.

The stupidity of a drunken British body politic has led to the election of another annoyingly stupid government.

Stupid is as stupid does. And says.

TomTom

Cameron is heading for conflict with Germany and France over Turkey and his role as Obama's bagman.

The Conservative Party is finished. What comes next ?

George

Quoth Melanie: "Can he really be that stupid? Hardly, with his Etonian schooling and Oxford First."

Attendance at Eton is not proof of possessing a first class mind - Prince Harry went to Eton.

fuzzywzhe

In 1940, it was the British that were the terrorists. Don't you limey's know your history?

That's why the Zionist freedom fighters had to blow up the King David Hotel and murder Count Bernadotte.

Derek Pasquill

Those who voted Conservative should be ashamed of themselves.

Simon

The future is definetly not bright for the West, with the current bunch of marxists in charge across all its countries. In 20-30 years Europe will be a totalitarian islamic state with the power brokers in charge in Brussels. Our entire history thrown away in a couple of generations and there isn't a thing we can do about it - men like Wilders are heroes who the political classes are doing their best to destroy.

Europe is finished but maybe the USA can become a shining light again to freedom against islamic terror when obama is kicked out (along with the appeasers who let mosques be built at the site of 9/11)

Vicky

I wrote to Downing Street following the flotilla incident to protest the government's stand against Israel. The letter I received in response said that the government 'deplored' the Israeli response. At no point did the letter engage with any of the points I made; instead it regurgitated a lot of ill-informed nonsense that made it absolutely clear that this government is completely clueless with regard to the situation in the Middle East. They simply don't get it, and what's more - they don't want to make the effort to try and understand it.

just Louise

Melanie, well done, as usual!
I am a member of the Conservative Party and I have always deplored the fools who voted David Cameron as leader.
I despise him deeply for his horrible selling out of both Israel and the European continent.
His children and his children's children will rue the day that Turkey enters the EU; pray it never happens.
My advice for Israel - ignore the idiot; do what you have to do.

Derek Pasquill

Why is the deplorable Cameron misrepresenting Islam?

Who are his wretched advisers?

Why was the Conservative Party ever born?

Who will rid us of these idiots?

Gregory

'Turkey' is the word - in American slang, Cameron himself is a real turkey, as was his ludicrous exercise in kow-towing sycophancy and Israel-bashing. It really is as if the Obamas, the Camerons and the rest are blindly playing their parts in the unfolding drama entitled, 'The Decline of the West or How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love Militant Islam'. Chilling indeed...

GaryO

Why does it surprise anyone what Cameron said, or what Obama has said in his numerous addresses to the muslim world, or what the Conservatives are now saying on Conservative Home. Why does it?

It doesn't me one bit.

In fact I predicted this and very much else, dare I say many atimes even on Melanie's blog, but my soundings about the latent Judeophobia in the Tory party and the rise of islam were too unpalatable even for her and my comments never saw the light of day. I don't know, maybe, it’s the way I say it.

Look into the history of islam and the way it spread and you'll know what we're up against. History is replete with rulers (Obama and Cameron are just the latest versions) who tried to reconcile with islamists, only to find when the final capitulation came, and swiftly it came for many, that they were just deluding themselves.

This is not just about Israel, please allow me to say at least that much.

Miranda Rose Smith

As I have previously observed, there is now in Britain a pre-pogrom atmosphere against Israel.

These people are worse than the pogromchiks. As even Jabotinsky, of blessed memory, admitted, of the Tsarist police force, they never stopped a pogrom, they were often suspected of participating in one, but they had a queer strain of brigand's fair play in their thinking processes, they didn't object to Jewish self-defence. These people have no such sense of fair play.

Let me be clear: the Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla was completely unacceptable.

When the time comes that Englishmen have to defend themselves against Arabs, will he also think that's completely unacceptable?

But here surely is the key to all this. Recently, Cameron declared that Britain was

the junior partner [to America] in 1940 when we were fighting the Nazis.

A textbook example of the Jews as humanity's miner's canaries, wouldn't you say? He libels Israel-and he libels his own people.

Stefan

Actually, there have been periods in history when Jews have actively sought converts. Such efforts usually ended in disaster, however. One may argue that Judaism's long-held aversion to proselytising stems from these negative experiences but above all from the inability to conduct such behaviour under hostile Christian and Muslim rule and the reluctance to seek recruits from the communities of such repugnant rulers.

jbaptiste Angot

CAMORON should tell people what he understands about Islam!
I would be interested to know !

DougS

Great post Melanie.

Cameron:
"...Let me be clear: the Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla was completely unacceptable. And I have told Prime Minister Netanyahu we will expect the Israeli inquiry to be swift, transparent and rigorous..."

I can recommend Lord Oxburgh and Sir Muir Russell, I think that they would fit the bill nicely!

Oh, I nearly forgot, and Penn. State University.

Ricky

Perhaps it's no surprise that Cameron is happy to link up with Far Right Judeophobic, Holocaust denying parties in the European Parliament.

Put this potent mix together with a poodle-like willingness to please Obamastan and you forge a natural linkage with Western hating proto fascists in Turkey, Syria and Hamastan.

The FCO or Camel Corps has long been a repository of upper class antisemitism and Arabism.

No change there.

It'll all end in tears.

GeoffM

Having heard Cameron's speech on Turkey and Gaza I feel quite sick!

At 55 I doubt I will be around when the shit really hits the fan (I guess in around 40-50 years time).

Europe, and its native peoples, will have to fight for their very existence.

Israel, however, I give about 25 years - tops.

cityca

A wind turbine on his house; call me Dave; hug a hoodie; cycling to work in front of a Lexus limo carrying his bag; a trip to the Arctic to demonstrate further his environmental credentials.

His actions demonstrate his contempt for what he must believe is an electorate of complete idiots. And that's why he's in a coalition.

Rachel Miller

Vicky - I too wrote to Mr. Cameron after the flotilla incident, asking him to make sure he considered all aspects of the situation before making any further condemnation of Israel. I added that it was important to understand all sides of the picture in the Middle East before acting, and suggested as an example that he examine the evidence that there *is* no humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza as is always claimed. I included the links to Tom Gross's pages on the subject, as well as to Palestinian media.

About three weeks later, I received a response from Mr. Cameron's office, stating that he felt it was necessary to act forcefully towards Israel because of the 'humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza'.

It's quite clear - Mr. Cameron and those like him simply do not want to hear us.

Kroton

Melanie writes: "He did not condemn the Turkish-backed terrorists on the Mavi Marmara who, I am reliably informed, slit open the stomach of one of those Israeli commandos and pulled out his guts before throwing him into the sea."

Could we please have the name of the commando? Presumably, if the story isn't fictitious, it shouldn't be a problem for you to give it to us. Look forward to learning it.

DaveP

Re: Turkey's entry to the EU.

Meanwhile the annual summer CarBQ festivals continue in France. Germany is getting increasingly nervous about its Turkish RoP.

Despite Cameron's desire for Turkey in the EU, one fact is re-assuring - any idea supported by Britain, will get short- shrift from France or Germany. Both the above are hostile to Turkey in the EU anyway.

Greg

Cameron's speech was shocking. He's pandering to Islamists in one breath and chucking Israel under the bus with the next. Whether his motives were populist, playing to the crowd, appeasing the US administration or whatever, it really is a very worrying development, particularly when taken with Hague's recent comments.

watttyler

Melanie, may I suggest that the BNP are now more Israel-friendly than the British Conservative Party?

As for the Conservative Home, that has been infiltrated by the new generation of Tories who are the real voice of the new party. They sound like pamphleteers in Communist Russia hurrah-ing every decision by the Party, and traducing any opposition, however incisive.

There were plenty of people before the election warning how dangerous David Cameron would be. We said that one should be able to predict it from what he said. Instead, people ignored the reality, and hoped that he would do something else that was opposite to his utterings. I think that for so many Britons their determination not to see the truth was fuelled by their desire to rectify their mistake in previoulsy voting for the New Labour government; they wanted to assuage their guilt. They will feel the need to do it again in the coming years. But will it be far too late?

Anon

"Of the three religions, it is only Judaism which has never sought to convert anyone else and thus never posed a threat to other religious -- or anti-religious -- believers."

What about the conquest of Canaan?
This is documented in the Hebrew Bible. From what I recall, the Jews decided to conquer Canaan on the basis that the Canaanites practiced a different religion. The goal wasn't to convert the Canaanites, but to annihilate them, and occupy their land.

What's the difference between this and the violent expansionism of the Mohammedans?

Each child in Gaza that witnesses their parents killed by Israeli bombs will become the next volunteer for Hamas.

Similarly, each child in Israel, whose parents are killed by Hamas rockets, will become the next volunteer for the IDF.

It's an absolutely tragic situation.
I weep for the children that are born into that environment - what future do they have?

When will the madness end? Both sides need to wake up to the fact that every act of violence nourishes the monster that they have created. And this monster will devour their children.

Louis Berk

"Let me also be clear that the situation in Gaza has to change. Humanitarian goods and people must flow in both directions. Gaza cannot and must not be allowed to remain a prison camp."

I knew this man was dangerous but I did not realise until now that he was dangerously deluded. Say what, Cameron, lets have an open free flow of people on our own borders! How long do you think it would be before Syrian, Iranian (or dare I say it, even Turkish) suicide bombers would be blowing themselves up in MacDonald's in Liverpool Street?
This man is worse than an idiot, which unfortunately leaves me unable to find the correct adjective for polite company.

Miranda Rose Smith

cycling to work in front of a Lexus limo carrying his bag;

Dear Cityca: Does he really do that? Who said that?

Miranda Rose Smith

every unwarranted shooting of an innocent EDL member (todays news from Dorset),

Dear Dixon: What does EDL mean?

Miranda Rose Smith

About three weeks later, I received a response from Mr. Cameron's office, stating that he felt it was necessary to act forcefully towards Israel because of the 'humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza'.

Dear Ms. Miller: He never bothered to answer me. What will he do when there's a humanitarian catastrophe in Edgeware Road?

Matt Pryor

Part of me still wants to believe this is part of some grand Machiavellian plan to deal with Hamas and Iran. But it's getting harder and harder to convince myself of it.

Dave you're scaring us. Please come to your senses.

Yaffle

Melanie,

Well said. I was prepared to give DC the benefit of the doubt - till now. What a creep.

However I think you're wrong to say, "Christianity too has a history of violence since like Islam it is inherently committed to the conversion of unbelievers."

True, violence has played all too great a part in the history of Christianity - but unlike in Islam, there is no scriptural justification for this - at least, not in the NT. Nor is there a necessary link between proselytism and violence - witness, for example the history of Buddhism.

MartinR

Brand me as racist, bigot or an Islamaphob I no longer care, I am gay and I am scared of the Islamic future of this country.

I just don't understand what all these appeasers of Islam are expecting to do when they are finally given the choice to convert, submit or die. Either they truly believe what they are constantly preaching about Islam, which means they are ignorant and just useful idiots to Islamists or they have a deeper long-term agenda that nobody has realised.

Could it be that European and US governments need to push their populations to civil war (western democratic vs Islam) so that the military can then be brought in with impunity to completely purge western populations of all Muslims in one go?

If it were attempted now, there would be outcry from the entire liberal following media led brainwashed masses. But if this Military intervention were seen as protecting them from a visible and literal battle on their own streets they would not complain.

Perhaps Islamist appeasers are expecting to hold special privileged positions in Dar al-Islam.

Martin Rabson

@ GaryO
July 28th, 2010 8:54am

Why does it surprise anyone what Cameron said, or what Obama has said...

"In fact I predicted this and very much else, dare I say many times even on Melanie's blog, but my soundings about the latent Judeophobia in the Tory party and the rise of Islam were too unpalatable even for her and my comments never saw the light of day. I don't know, maybe, it’s the way I say it."

I've yet to have a comment accepted on the Spectator, I just can't seem to reach the correct level of self censorship I guess.

Cameron scares me, plain and simple!

Miranda Rose Smith

Brand me as racist, bigot or an Islamaphob I no longer care, I am gay and I am scared of the Islamic future of this country.

Dear Mr. R: I share your fears.

Miranda Rose Smith

Could it be that European and US governments need to push their populations to civil war (western democratic vs Islam) so that the military can then be brought in with impunity to completely purge western populations of all Muslims in one go?

Dear Mr. R: I don't think they're that evil, that cynical or that stupid.

Adam B.

I wonder if Cameron took the opportunity to ask Erdogan about Turkey's bombing of Kurdish villages in northern Iraq, Turkey's occupation of northern Cyprus and Turkey's military assistance to Syria in massacring hundreds of Kurds, which is happening right now (not that you'd know from the media)?

Hypocrites.

just Louise

Well said, MartinR.
I'm not gay but I'm female, and very worried for the future, which appears to belong to the Islamists with their warped anti-human ideas.
Don't Cameron and the other foolish politicians who appease Islam and doon't mind if Europe is overrun with Muslims care for the future of their own daughters and granddaughters?

Augustus

David Cameron really has become a dhimmi of the first order. Is this the same Conservative leader who in the past so admired Margaret Thatcher? During a period when South European countries such as Greece need to put their houses in order, and East European countries have been let in far too early, to allow a further large and basically weak country such as Turkey into the EU is most illogical. That would
constitute a very large financial risk, and that is an argument that Cameron, as a conservative, should be addressing. The argument that those who are against Turkey's entry are afraid of a clash of civilizations but they needn't worry, evaporates as soon as one sees how Turkey ingratiates itself with Iran and the Palestinian terrorists. Meanwhile, Christians really have to be on their guard in Turkey because the position of minorities there is far from just, and the country is far from being politically stable. As for Erdogan and the EU is concerned, he's only in it for the money. First Obama, and now Cameron. Welcome to the new heroes of the West.

Mr R

"Actually", Stefan, that is horsefeathers. Give proof for your statements, or at least dates, etc. Don't simply state a bunch of nonsense by prefixing it "actually" (as if you know what you're talking about) -- give us the benefit of your knowledge.

Pam M

MartinR
July 28th, 2010 11:19am

You're not the only one who's scared about the future. The government, at least any of the LibLabCon parties, and the EUSSR will sell us out. They will continue to grovel until they willingly accept dhimmitude, and the media will support them all the way. They have the means to stop the march of Islam, but they lack the courage to use it decisively.

They don't, however, speak for me and if, like me and I'm sure many others, you're not willing to go down quietly, then when the time comes we'll have to fight. If you're gay you have nothing to lose as the Muslims will kill you anyway. There is hope in the military as, although the MoD is useless, the men themselves have courage and decency so we can hope they will do the right thing. I can't see them standing by quietly while their families are being slaughtered by bearded fanatics, no matter what the politicians say.

The hope for Europe lies with the people not the leaders. Unfortunately in the political and media classes for every man of vision like Geert Wilders there are a hundred dhimmi Daves.

alan stoddart

As an MP said in the 1930’s after Czechslovakia was abandoned to Hitler……’The world is changing. values have improved. 2000 years ago a man could reckon on receiving 30 pieces of silver if he went in for a betrayal. Now a nation has to pay out 30 million pieces of gold if it goes in for a betrayal’

Now 6 million Israelis have been sacrificed by Cameron for trade deals along with the surrender of our own borders.

He has given the green light for every anti-Semite, every anti-Israeli to descend upon Israel and attack it and Jews everywhere physically, commercially or just by the usual tirade of venom spewed out in the media.

Cameron buries his head in the sand about the nature of Erdogan just as Chamberlain did with Hitler…. On hearing of Kristalnacht Chamberlain wrote a letter to his sister…saying he didn’t know what to say about kristalnacht…as sorry for the Jews, and didn’t want to make it worse for them but he didn’t want to upset Hitler.

As Churchill said…’…a deal with Hitler would have been a blunder and a crime.’

Cameron has learnt nothing from the last few months with regard to BP, Megrahi, trade deals and Islam…. Doing deals for short term advantage always ends in pain.

Cameron is an appeaser without principles. A man who does not live in the real world where other people have their own ideas on how they want the world to run…. Playing the Islamist off against the Arab nationalist was the old British game…but the rules have changed with modern travel and communications…but most of all with 2 million Muslims living in this country you must ask is it wise to encourage the Islamist tendencies. To say not all Muslims support them is irrelevant… In Afghanistan very few support the Taliban….but a small band of well armed and determined men took that country over because they were willing to use extreme violence….and those men and their ilk are here too.

The Islamists is within the Establishment working hand in hand with our political leaders, aided every step of the way by those in positions of power and influence. How many times does Andrew Gilligan have to point it out?

Mark Adomanis

"Into which category of prejudice would Cameron place the horrified Professor Rodrik -Turkish protectionist, Turkish culture warrior or Turkish Islamophobe?"

I don't see why those are the only possibilities. I personally would suggest that Professor Rodrik, who resides in the United States and teaches at Harvard, is about as representative of Turkish society as Christopher Hitchens is of British. He is, in other words, a member of that institution which you so roundly depise: "the elite."
For better or worse Erdogan is resoundingly popular among the majority of Turks who (with some justification) credit him with the rapid economic progress of the past decade.
Finding one liberal elitist professor who doesn't even live in Turkey seems an exceedingly poor basis for arguing that the country is becoming a "tyranny."

JACKIE BOY

While Cameron was describing Gaza as a "Prison Camp" the Hamas Interior Minister, Fathi Hamad said that "the authorities in Gaza will begin the creation of a large, broad based security force in the Strip by imposing military conscription" (reports Assoc Press' Jamal Halaby)
The Interior Ministry currently maintains a permanent force of 18,000 men under arms (approx 1.5% of the total population of Gaza).

An "Armed Camp" would be a more accurate description.

This speaks volumes for the Hamas regime's priorities in looking after the poor and destitute population of Gaza.

Perhaps DC wants the gates of Gaza to be opened so that Mr Hamad and his clique can have access to all the weapons they want for their new enlarged security force" paid for by donations from the UK Government (ie UK tax payers)

cityca

Miranda Rose Smith
Yes, prior to the election, Cameron was filmed riding his bike and in the background, his large, private Lexus saloon car (limo was my exaggeration) followed behind, carrying his case, papers etc. Now call me a cynic but either you ride, or you go by car. When you do both, you're hoping the world will think you a caring environmentalist, while not noticing that in fact, you are a hypocrite. As I said before, he takes us all for fools.

Your comments on this thrtead are very aposite. As a gay, you worry about the future in an Islamist society. As a Jew, I do too. What is hards to understand is why those in the main stream media, women in general and anyone on the left or of a liberal disposition is just as much at risk, one way or the other.

Talk about useful idiots!

Susan

FRIGHTENING IDIOCY! It can't be explained any better than that.

There should be a law to educate politicians in foreign relations prior to their running for office.

POOR POOR BRITAIN!

colin froman pseudonym please "up theirs"

It will need a commercial vacuum cleaner to extract the brown nosed Mr Cameron.
But the BP need him (and Libya)

Penny

Let's not ask the demi-gods that are our politicians what they think of the Israel/Palestine conflict. That's too easy and provides them with yet more opportunities to fawn and play to whichever gallery they're in at the time.

Let's ask them what they would actually DO if the UK found itself in the same position as Israel.

If they just once stopped criticising and condemning and instead, offered up their own solution based on all known events, maybe they'd allow us to see the mettle and strategies of those who we've got running this country.

I believe when Clegg was asked this question at a relatively small meeting, his response was along the lines of 'it's not for me to offer up an opinion'

What an unacceptable cop-out given that he is one of Israel's well-known critics.

Oh - and whilst they're at it, perhaps Cameron and Clegg would kindly provide us with the audit figures to account for the millions the British taxpayer donates to Gaza. After all, every Red Nose Day the UK alone raises some £15 million but the following year we get to see where that money went. If we didn't, we'd probably be a little more cautious about responding to Sir Bob.

Gaza gets a tad more from the international community than the Brits raise in one day, yet we see no apparent benefit and according to what we hear there is STILL a humanitarian crisis going on. Why? It's hardly the size of Africa. What's happening to all that international dosh?

Hatfield

It seems that the U.K. never far from Munich, as the impulse to cower in front of evil is very strong there (I'm in the U.S.). Luckily for the world, and sadly for Cameron, Israel is not Czechoslovakia. Where is Churchill when we need him?

Judith George

Thank goodness for clear headed thinking. How can we get rid of this dreadful man who really failed to win the election yet thinks he is so clever. What a mess.

William T Choomin

Another short comment about this excellent bit.

"Does he really think that Europe's ‘values’ emerged in an act of spontaneous cultural generation? Does he really not grasp that core European ‘values’ – individual freedom, commitment to truth, duty to others, equality of all human beings and so forth – derived from the Bible, the cultural foundation-stone of western society?"

Now "leftists" and "historians" would say that Western civilization as it is termed started with Cyrus the Great. But we all know your excellent point of "and so forth" rightfully puts them in their place. It's common sense that the old testament is what "European values" stem from. Other people could never create such institutions that we created and must defend. The eggheads in academia just don't understand. Perhaps if they read the bible they would see that "individual freedom, commitment to truth, duty to others, equality of all human beings and so forth" really came from.

As for Cameron. Well he may pretend he isn't brown. But deep inside he is a brown person. Why did the UK vote for this turncoat? This Anglo-Saxon quisling? It astounds me to this day.

The UK should know the dangers of brown people in name and coluor. Yet here we are with a brown turned inside out! Him being PM is an attack at the very foundation of our European values. I cry when I think that ethnic nationalism and privilege might cease to define my country.

We must do what we can to protect our European values from the hoards of brown people! If we don't, then all the ethnic cleansing and genocide since the beginning of our civilization will be for nothing!

The destruction of our precious ethnic nationalism and racial privilege is something to be concerned about. If those fall to the brown hoards of Islamo-Facism. Well, I'm afraid that we might have to actually live up to those words to them! A sickening end to our way of life indeed!

"individual freedom, commitment to truth, duty to others, equality of all human beings and so forth"

This is why I so sympathize with Israel. We could learn a thing or two from them in the way they handle their browns. I'm all for "so forth" as long as it's only for those that are true Brits. Giving it aliens is simply traitorous.

D. Roberts

Turkish delight was evident as our British Prime Minister sacrificed the Jewish state upon the altar of political expediency while having the audacity to declare himself to be a "friend of Israel".

The condescending, arrogant attitude of our "unelected coalition leader" knew no bounds as he made demands upon Israel and sidestepped anything which may cause offence to his Turkish soul-mate. Conspicuous by it's absence was any reference to Mr. Erdogan's involvement with the Turkish IHH terrorist group behind the recent "flotilla" incident, or any mention of the thousands of innocent Kurds killed by Turkish forces. To dare raise the subject of the Armenian genocide would have been anathema for Mr. Cameron's own self interests as he sought a political scapegoat elsewhere in Israel.

As to Gaza being a "prison" Mr. Cameron may wish to cast his eyes towards the luxury malls, the overflowing markets and the drivers of Mercedes cars as he absolves Gaza's populace of any responsibility for voting into power a terrorist entity sworn to destroy it's Jewish neighbour. He may also wish to recall that Israel ceded Gaza for peace but received a "hell on earth" with thousands of missiles being fired at Israeli civilians from it's former territory.

Any situation in Gaza is due to security measures afforded to counter the pursuit of Palestinian aggression. Mr. Erdogan, himself a supporter of Hamas, was clearly appreciative of our Prime Minister's echoing of Arab propaganda as Cameron expediently sidestepped another issue - Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier held in Gaza for over 4 years without even a visit from the Red Cross.

With "friends" like you Mr. Cameron, Israel certainly doesn't need enemies.

BlairSupporter

Are you sure about this, Melanie? -

"He did not condemn the Turkish-backed terrorists on the Mavi Marmara who, I am reliably informed, slit open the stomach of one of those Israeli commandos and pulled out his guts before throwing him into the sea."

The commando would have to have been dead by then - gutless and drowned. Personally I don't recall hearing that ANY member of the Israeli forces had been killed. I am sure they'd have let us know.

With the rest of your article I empathise.

I can see the 'politics' of getting Turkey into the EU, mainly to avoid its being a gateway for others. But with your main contention I agree. Cameron is a fool in a statesman's cloak.

Anyone ready to join a new political party?

We won't be able to agree on everything, of course.

Signed.

(Still a Blair Supporter)

BlairSupporter

The man's an idiot. Repeated now on PM, as this morning on Today DC said "1940 was the proudest year in British history."

What? Was that the year your parents were born, DC?

IMBECILE.

(FGS! 'Heir to Blair'? He must be turning in his ...)

And as the day went on Cameron got even worst. He managed to insult Pakistan's government.

IDIOT.

General election - NOW!

Louis Berk

@Judith George

How to get rid of Cameron? If he continues to drivel on in this way, and minimise Britain's contribution to WWII, I suspect the coalition will unravel very quickly. I see a Labour government or a Lib/Lab pact in the next 12 months.

Hector

I pretty much gave up on Cameron when he put out the word that he was looking at all sources of money to keep funding social programs.

Sure he's a conservative. So's Clinton.

Philip Raine

Cameron says the attack on the flotilla was completely unacceptable and in the same breath adds this must be swiftly and rigorously and transparantly investigated.
The man's a lawyer surely he knows you can't condemn something before the facts have been established.
He should also know that initial results of the independent investigation have shown that Israel was 100% within the law and the only failure had been lack of sufficient intelligence gathering

Auschwiz surviver

1940???
1938!!!

The clock is ticking for you, Chamberlain - just hope there's a Churchill hiding somewhere...

Deja vu!

Marcel Ladenheim

Good for you Melanie!
Gaza a prison? This statement will follow him to the end.

Tip Arillo

1940 this is not. Exactly!! The threat face is no where near as grave. D'uh!

PJ

The end of impunity for Israel is overdue. Saying so isn't anti-semitism. I don't think we'll see Turkey in the EU anytime soon and Cameron's remarks on that score can be disregarded. He said on the radio today that he meant to say 1940s not 1940. Big deal. Ordinarily I wouldn't comment on this hysterical nonsense but it's time for Israel to realise that it really has lost public support in the west. Denigrating Cameron isn't going to change that

PJ

The end of impunity for Israel is overdue. Saying so isn't anti-semitism. I don't think we'll see Turkey in the EU anytime soon and Cameron's remarks on that score can be disregarded. He said on the radio today that he meant to say 1940s not 1940. Big deal. Ordinarily I wouldn't comment on this hysterical nonsense but it's time for Israel to realise that it really has lost public support in the west. Denigrating Cameron isn't going to change that

Zachary

In 1994, my nephew reported from Britain that many people he met accepted and even enjoyed their country's decline. That they even cultivated this opinion. I did not fully understand that attitude until reading this article.

Ron

"Those who attack Israel are invariably on the wrong side of the global fight to defend civilisation against its destroyers"? Really now? I must admit to being puzzled over the zealous defense of Israel as of late. Israel is by all accounts a horrid exercise in colonialism. Hundreds of thousands pushed out of their land, their homes destroyed, their culture supplanted, their descendants holed up in refugee camps. This is civilisation? This is what thousands of years of our culture has created? Pardon me, but that is a most depressing thought. Israel receives more aid from the Americans than any other country, they violate more UN resolutions than any other country, they are the only self-proclaimed "Western nation" to continue to actively colonize just outside their borders. They are not "one of us", as you would have it. In the battle between Turkey and Israel, there are only losers. No winners, and certainly no one to defend.

Tom Cobbett

Blair and Brown brought shame on our country through their dishonesty, hypocrisy and incompetence but Cameron is far worse with his complete lack of principle.

In the Wilderness in America

Melanie, brilliant article. You intellectually destroyed Cameron and his ilk. And you had truth and decency on your side. Oh, and did I mention a grasp of history?

Cameron is a charlatan like Obama. So, Britain, it pains me to say this, but welcome to the insanity of Obamaland where appeasement of the Islamists and demonization of Israel is a given. In fact, Cameron has now become Obama's poodle when it comes to protecting civilization from tyranny.

Our only hope, Britain and America's that is, is the dismantling of these two ruthless ideologues' bases of power. Hopefully, this will start with the U.S. mid-term elections in November.

We live and hope and pray for better, safer days. And may Israel continue to successfully fight the fight that America and Britain and the rest of Europe will not.

Gary

So Melanie thinks that we should snub Turkey, a nation whose population represents a huge market opportunity for sales of British products?
Yes, let's ignore a huge market at huge cost to our economy just because it might upset Israel.

agnus sossage

Melanie is my hero.

Like any Nation, we deserve the government (and "leaders") we get.
Well, may they say "GOD help us!" for whom else is there to do such?

Correct me if I'm wrong but did not GOD say to Abraham "I will bless those who bless you (Israel) and curse those who curse you." Stand by for some monumental judgment coming our way. There are many leaders who are simply willing pawns in the hands of the one known as Satan; not the least being Obama and Cameron and .... you fill in the gaps.

Frumious Falafel

Well, PM Cameron should remember Churchill's words to an aid who was about to visit Hitler pre-1939, (roughly) "Anti-Semitism is a good starter, but a poor finisher."

Marcus from the USA

Like Ive stated before on a previous post, the BNP/EDL are the only true pro-Israel groups left in the UK.

Infact Israel's support in the West derives almost exclusively from the far-right; whether its Geert Wilders in Holland or Sarah Palin in America.

Im glad to see most mainstream politicians finally realizing what a national menace the State of Israel is.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Gary wrote: "
Gary
July 29th, 2010 2:22am

So Melanie thinks that we should snub Turkey, a nation whose population represents a huge market opportunity for sales of British products?
Yes, let's ignore a huge market at huge cost to our economy just because it might upset Israel."

I think what Mel was objecting to, above all, perhaps, was the lack of subtlety in Cameron's show of grovelling Perfidious Albion rather than his upsetting Israel per se.

I don't think anyone is naive enough to think that the UK will forego stooping to any depths of amorality - like most states - to make a buck, but it makes a laughing stock of not only the UK, but also Turkey et all, when it gets so sanctimonious and pious about Israel with an audience has got not moral leg to stand on whatsoever.

No doubt, when Cameron visits Russia - hard on the heels of the spy swap - he will rail against Israel's perfidy in cloning passports and practice of targeted assassinations! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

tommy

Ron you said
"Hundreds of thousands pushed out of their land, their homes destroyed, their culture supplanted, their descendants holed up in refugee camps."

This article about why palestinians live in refugee camps might clear things up a bit

http://tinyurl.com/abmbk

Elizabeth Burton

A brilliant, honest and powerful condemnation of Cameron and the anti-semitism he personifies, which is growing in this country as the influence of islamisation takes hold of our once stable culture,
Israel, the only civilised democratic state in the Middle East, stands between the western world and an eventual return to the dark ages under the blind rule of a medieval cult.

Derek BLADES

Although a verb or two seems to be missing from the above, what Cityca is apparently saying is that while Jews and Gays are alert to the dangers of a Moslem takeover, non-gay, non-Jewish people of a leftist turn of mind are not sufficiently alert to the dangers but should be.

As one of this last group let me give Cityca my explanation. The United Kingdom - like the rest of Western Europe - consists mainly of reasonably educated people of a secular persuasion. We regard Moslems who observe their faith rather as we do Jehova's witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and the like. Slightly wacky - but if they want to adhere to their barmy beliefs the best course is to let them do so while giving them a wide berth.

Education, BBC television, peer pressure and the natural urge of second and third generation immigrants to conform will gently but steadily dampen religious fervour. Then we can all breath again – gays and Jews included.

Adam B.

Yeah sure Marcus, you really know what's going on in the UK. And you think Turkey is your friend? It is now a country which is cozying up to Iran, the country which backs groups like Hizbollah, which is a terror organization which has killed hundreds of Americans. You think the Saudis are your friends - 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis.

Adam B.

Ron thinks the re-establishment of the Jewish homeland, Israel, is "colonialist". So what are the Arab conquests then, Ron?

Better dismantle the US, Australia, New Zealand and Canada while we're about it. And the Uk should leave the Falklands and Gibraltar.

The Jews have ancient roots in this land, and some never became part of the diaspora - they must be colonialists too. More Jews were made refugees in 1948 than Arabs.

Grow up.

margaret durant

Melanie has asserted on many occasions that the Bible is the basis of our western human values. She has apparently read a version or translation which is different from mine. The Old Testament on my bookshelf is a history of slaughtering, revenge, slavery and cruel treatment for those who did not follow Leviticus' rules. Has she read Moses' words to his soldiers who did not slaughter all the prisoners they had captured? He told them to allow the virgins to live and to keep them for themselves. Jesus was a bit more humane but even he spoke the words which we now associate with the extreme wing of Islam: "If thy right hand offend thee cut it off".

Callan

"Cynical callowness". Just about sums up the way Cameron is behaving Melanie. I agree with every word you have written. Your article had me spitting in fury. I hope Cameron and his minions read it and the comments which I am sure will follow. He may realise that with his flip flops on election promises and by kowtowing to all and sundry,(our enemies in particular) , he is beginning to be loathed as much as Blair.

MartinR

@Derek BLADES
July 29th, 2010 9:44am
“Education, BBC television, peer pressure and the natural urge of second and third generation immigrants to conform will gently but steadily dampen religious fervour. Then we can all breath again – gays and Jews included.”

That has to be one of the funniest and at the same time saddest comments I’ve read. If you really believe that, then you are simply part of the danger, part of the problem.

I will fight you equally; for my freedom to choose religion or lack thereof, choice of partner and political leanings. You and your fellow leftists are determined to send this country to uncontrolled Multicultural Hell!

I did not vote for the BBC party, didn’t notice that one on my ballot paper.

“peer pressure and the natural urge of second and third generation immigrants to conform…”

Really! Do you live in the same country as I do? You have it backwards. Peer pressure from within these groups is the cause fuelling extremism from within well-educated second and third generations. It was the immigrant parents or grandparents who originally came to this country as economic migrants or refugees. They embraced this country; they became British first everything else second. Now people want to reverse this, use this country for it’s wealth and security and by stealth change it to match some kind of imaginary idyllic ancestral nirvana.

By ‘extremism’ I mean the exact adherence to beliefs that are not compatible to British Democratic Secular freedoms. Such people hold no allegiance to this country but firstly to their ancestral homeland and their religious leaders. They may live in Britain, but they are not British. This country is just a ‘means to an end’ the end will not be pretty.

Carl

The sooner Israel understands that their State as it is is despised and take action to start behaving in a reasonable manner, the better it will be for them.

Their attack on the Aid ship has had repercussions on Israel that they completely failed to predict.

steve mann

Once again your are spot on-
The apparent ignorance concerning Jihadi Islam by many Western politicians leaves me wondering whether there is more to it than meets the eye.
From all the terrorist activity that has been perpertrated in the name of Islam and the deafening silence of those who say it is not is so evident that even a "blind Man" could see it.

steve mann

Carl how would you suggest Israel acts.? When daily rockets and mortars are fired at her southern border by Hamas.
how do you suggest you checks for armaments going into Gaza?
how do you suggest she protects her citizens?
Talk is cheap- Its only actions that have enabled Israel to survive,

MartinR

@Carl
July 29th, 2010 1:09pm

“The sooner Israel understands that their State as it is is despised and take action to start behaving in a reasonable manner, the better it will be for them.
Their attack on the Aid ship has had repercussions on Israel that they completely failed to predict.”

If the UK was surrounded by hostile countries that simply wanted me and my countrymen to cease to exist, I would hope to the ‘Gods’ that the leaders and citizens would fight for survival and do that regardless of calls “to start behaving in a reasonable manner” by people living in relatively safe countries hundreds of miles away.

Humanitarian ideals are laudable, but blindly following humanitarian idealism is not. And not trying to find out about the history of the subject in hand, however complex and confusing (middle eastern political/religious history makes my head spin) is inexcusable.

The equation [Israel = wrong] + [Palestine = right] = [simplistic] one has to factor in all the hidden agendas by all the parties involved. Not saying it’s easy but it’s essential.

Hamas are not very nice people as far as I understand and if David Cameron’s government started treating us the way Hamas treat those citizens in Gaza I think we would be calling for help. What then (in my imaginary UK) if we wanted peace and help from outside because we are suffering, but David Cameron’s government prevents those of us in certain areas from benefiting from the aid entering the country and using our suffering as propaganda. It makes me shudder. As I understand it this is the case in Palestine, those poor people, they suffer so much, but that does not forgive anti-Israeli rhetoric and veiled Antisemitism.

We should be supporting Israel in their efforts to reach some kind of settlement, yet the west vilifies them, so sad. No matter, we can still go to Tel Aviv and enjoy a sun soaked holiday. It all seems cynical and so self serving and ignorant.

MartinR

@ steve mann
July 29th, 2010 1:42pm

Once again your are spot on-
The apparent ignorance concerning Jihadi Islam by many Western politicians leaves me wondering whether there is more to it than meets the eye.
From all the terrorist activity that has been perpertrated in the name of Islam and the deafening silence of those who say it is not is so evident that even a "blind Man" could see it.

Agree totally!
But actual events and facts don't seem to make any difference. Always they return the accusation "but you don't understand, you have it wrong, study more and you will see"

I've seen quite enough!

Shinderpal Jandu

This will all end with crying

Stuart Seacole Smith

Derek BLADES July 29 9.44: your simple explanation regarding why you and your leftist bedfellows take the attitude you do towards islamic immigration and why you believe their future integration to be a dead cert pretty well summed up what I had assumed to be the case.

That you are prepared to bet the farm, and our childrens' futures on your airy-fairy and ill-informed hopes on the future behaviour of the ever-growing muslim population is really quite breathtaking.

When was the last time a Seventh Day Adventist blew up a bus? Or hacked someone's head off in the name of not eating scaly things?

Martin R July 29 12.38 makes most of the points that need making. For pity's sake read that post, and take it to heart. Otherwise, your all too prevalent way of thinking will pave the road to hell for us and our children.

In the Wilderness in America

Shinderpal Jandu
July 29th, 2010 3:05pm
"This will all end with crying."

You have that right! Throughout history, appeasement always ends with crying and suffering and death. The jihadists will kill all the homosexuals, all the women, all the minorities, and all the children who are considered infidels as well as all the heterosexual white men who are considered the same. Your ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, religion, and race will not save you from the onslaught. All those who don't understand this are a threat to the survival of our civilization because they refuse to fight this Islamic evil. Yet, they will be slaughtered just the same. As Churchill pointed out (paraphrasing here): Appeasers keep feeding the crocodile in the hope that they will be the last one eaten.

Harold

"the Turkish-backed terrorists on the Mavi Marmara who, I am reliably informed, slit open the stomach of one of those Israeli commandos and pulled out his guts before throwing him into the sea."

Corroboration?

Marcus from the USA

Adam B;

Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and even Syria have been allies of the United States.

Turkish troops fought alongside American and British troops in the Korean War. Syrian troops fought alongside American and British troops in the Gulf War.

You are absolutely correct about 15 of the 19 hijackers being Saudi. But we cant judge a nation of over 28 million people by the actions of just 15.

Also there has never been a case of state sponsored terrorism by Saudi Arabia against America or Britain. There has been atleast one case of state sponsored terrorism by Israel against America and Britain (Lavon Affair/Operation Susannah).

Speaking as both a Yank and a Brit (I have dual US and UK citizenship) I would choose to be friends with Turkey over Israel any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Augustus

In the real world there aren't seven million powerful Israeli Goliaths and four million powerless Palestinian Davids. That is only a fantasy cooked up by Palestinian propaganda. There are 1.5 billion Muslims who occupy vast territories and have huge reserves of oil and gas. Western governments do not forget this, even if they make believe it is all about
'humanitarian' concerns and
'Palestinian statehood'. It's really about Arab oil, the threat of Muslim terror, and the
oil companies. These are the real determinants of the realpolitik of the Middle East.

Adam B.

Well Marcus, I am also a dual national, US and British. I find your assertions astonishing. Yes, Turkey was involved with the Korean War - but that was 60 years ago. Israel has helped the US is far more profound ways - and much more recently. The levels of intelligence provided by Israel to the US are second to none - for example, in the 70's and 80's, the entire Soviet Sam system was rendered obsolete by Israeli experience aginst such systems. Captured systems were given to the US (as well as Soviet aircraft which were then evaluated and used in training). But now as well, there is an intelligence exchange between the two countries. In addition, Israel always supports the US internationally - not so, with Saudi Arabia or Turkey, and certainly not so with Syria.

It is laughable to claim that Syria helped the US in the Gulf - don't you know that whole deal was cooked up by Bush senior with Assad the mass murderer to give Syria complete control in Lebanon? Syria acted, as always, for completely self-interested reasons, and it was no skin off Assad's nose - he was a rival of Saddam anyway and hated him. Bush senior just wanted any Arab stamp of approval, for show.

Saudi Arabia has, for years, funded terrorism against the US, (and those hijackers didn't appear from nowhere - they are a product of their culture, which hates the US). It has also been active in spreading the ideology of violent jihad throughout the West with Wahabi inspired imams. Saudi hates the West - it doesn't take much digging to discover this.

Turkey is currently cozying up to Iran, which hates the US as you well know. Turkish planes are, today, killing hundreds in northern Iraq, and Syria is now engaged in nothing short of genocide against its own Kurdish population - with Turkish military assistance. That you seem to think these are your "friends" says more about your visceral hatreds and prejudices than about anything in reality. And culturally, the Us and Israel are far closer than the Us is woth any of your imaginary false friends.

Adam B.

Harold, why don't you ask the Israeli hospital in which the soldiers were treated?

Who would convince you?

Carl

Dear little Adam B, so quick to quote biblical history in defence of Israel suddenly points out that our staunch ally Turkey only supported us 60 years ago which, as far as he is concerned, is not worthy of consideration as it was too long ago. How amusing.

Andrew

Adam B.
July 29th, 2010 9:59am
Whatever their other crimes, the British and other European settlers didn't pretend to be other than colonials.

Ancient history has an emotional force for those whose ancient history it is. It has no bearing on legal title. No-one else can be expected to allow the ancient history practical effect in the absence of legal title or overwhelming force.

Mark Alexander

This article is excellent, and so true. Bravo! As ever, you've hit the spot again!

Hannah Sealey

Melanie, I agee with you. If I were Jewish I would pack my bags and go home to Israel, but I am not Jewish. I have written to my MP about Mr Cameron's appalling lack of knowledge.

I never voted for him in the Conservative leadership election and I did not feel able to vote for him at the May 5th General Election. Unfortunately though I now see that he is more of a disaster than even I in my wildest dreams had imagined.

Adam B.

Yes Carl, almost as amusing as your false assertion that I have every used the Bible for politics.

Perhpas you can provide one quote - or you can just admit you've got it badly wrong now. I know facts aren't your forte...

Adam B.

You're quite right Andrew - it has nothing to do with legal title. That is why Israel's legal titile is found in the UN partition plan of 1948, which the UN adopted.

Or did you think otherwise?

Monique Lester

Thanks goodness for some sense. Many British Jews are feeling deeply angry and let down by this nonsense. The problem is the average Brit is not interested enough. More demonising Israel and ignoring the true enemy.

ilan Samson

As always- thanks to Melanie Phillips for being the beacon of straightforward truth in this generally nasty and disingenuous political world

Kenneth Varner

God bless David Cameron! As an American of the traditional Goldwater school of conservatism (strong defense, smaller government, individual freedom, free-market capitalism), it's refreshing to see the conservative mantle being reclaimed from the religionists and warmongerers that have held it for far too long now. I cast my first-ever vote for president for Goldwater in '64, and it's ironic that it's a British PM who's reminding America what true conservatism is nearly 50 years later.

The idea that Israel's interests are identical to the West's is a myth that needs to be refuted once and for all. The current apartheid regime, including what Cameron accurately characterized as the prison camp of Gaza, is corrosive both to Israel's moral health and the West's relations with the Islamic world. It is vital that this reality be acknowledged and corrected, and Cameron's remarks are definitely a step in the right (in every sense of the word) direction. Eventually there will have to be both an Israeli and a Palestinian state, or else Israel will have to annex the occupied territories and cease to exist as a Jewish state. But the current state of affairs in that country is simply insupportable.

Oh, Ms. Phillips, as for your claim that "He did not condemn the Turkish-backed terrorists on the Mavi Marmara who, I am reliably informed, slit open the stomach of one of those Israeli commandos and pulled out his guts before throwing him into the sea."

And I am "reliably informed" that had any such disemboweling occurred, especially if the victim was subsequently thrown overboard, it would have resulted in the death of the individual. (But then, what do three years of medical professors know?)

Since we can reasonably assume that Israel, desperate to find ANY justification for their murderous blunders on the Mavi Marmara, would have instantly howled about such a heinous death befalling an IDF member at the hands of those bloodthirsty Islamic fellows, it's safe to conclude your informant was, well, supremely ill-informed.

SISAC

I read the entire transcript of his speech which made me sick to my stomach as it immediately made me think of Obama's "NASA outreach to Muslims." It's pathetic if these men do not realize that their appeasement will gain no friendship with the enemies.

Mary

It's a shame to England..who do not rule the waves anymore and haven't for decades..for this new PM to speak such inciteful words and denagrate Israel..for shame on Englands PM..He won't be in office very long..Is this PM another Neville Chamberlain..???

Miranda Rose Smith

A Wall Street Journal article a few days ago made exactly the same point, noting that the British Foreign Office instructed the British Navy not to apprehend pirates lest they claim that their human rights were harmed, and request and receive asylum in Britain.

Now of course, one reason that Cameron thinks that the Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla was completely unacceptable is that he hates Jews worse than any pogromchik and he thinks it's unacceptable for Jews to try and stay alive. He wants Israel to lift the blckade, so that anything, including heavy artillery can be brought in at any time and used in an attack on Israel, so that Jews will be slaughtered and he can pretend to be moved by dead Jews, the way I'm sure he pretends to be moved by Anne Frank, may the al-mighty avenge her blood. The world's reaction to the Gaza Flotilla proved to me, once again, that a lot of people are faking when they pretend to be moved by Anne Frank, may the al-mighty avenge her blood. They have no sympathy for Jews who try to stay alive, and, and since Anne Frank was a Jew trying to stay alive, Q.E.D. they have no sympathy for her.

It just occurred to me, this morning, that there might be another reason why Cameron is so furious with Netanyahu. He's jealous of Netanyahu's cojones, jealous that Israelis DO stop ships that aren't where they're supposed to be.

Andrew

Dixon,

And how about me having stopped being member of the Conservative Party soon after he got elected to be leader?

The key word is Geldof.

Much can be said, analyzed etc about Cameron. Nothing can sum him better up.

Harold

I'm curious about the IDF soldier who had his guts ripped out before he was thrown into the sea. The IDF talks of four moderately injured of whom two were for a time critical. Given all the falsehoods the IDF felt it had to put out to convince the world of its case, would it not be expected to make more of a soldier who had his guts ripped out?

Andrew

Adam B.,
So the reference to ancient history was a rhetorical flourish.

And you do recognise the authority of the UN.

achille

Sorry for you Mr. Cameron, Obama should not stay long !

I Barnett

This is a very sad day for British even handedness and our future.
I pray that commonsense and traditional British values speedily return to our prime Minister.

Ivor

Shame on you Mr Cameron. What has happened to British values of fairness and evenhandedness? You have done more harm to your reputation than even your detractors could do! Please read your speeches again and apologise! to your friends and erstwhile supporters

Harvey Stewart

well said Ms. Phillips. We seem to be in the same state as the U.S,A. where the public saw Obama as a messiah, he isn't and nor is Cameron

Brian Smith

Camoron - I like that. Maybe Conmoron? We really have been conned. When will the right-of-centre politicians give us a real right-of-centre political party?

Also why are the rest so pro-Islamic - are they uneducated, stupid or just bribed?

Adam B.

No Andrew, I couldn't care less about the UN - but I knew you would, in your world of "legal title." In my view, Israel has the right to exist in itself.

The Jewish people's history is not a "rhetorical flourish" - and it is offensive that you claim it is.

Adam B.

Harold - honestly, ask the Israeli hospital in which he was treated.

It just won't do to give in to your baseless prejudices. You question it - you go and find out.

Bob from Virginia

Harvey Stewart, not all of us here in the USA saw Obama as a messiah. A lot of us wondered what was wrong with those who did. We are still wondering.

Andrew

Adam B.

"That is why Israel's legal title is found in the UN partition plan of 1948, which the UN adopted."

"I couldn't care less about the UN "

When you make assertions, how are we to tell when you mean them and when you don't?

"Israel has the right to exist in itself." - Sounds almost mystical (in the sense of, What on earth does that mean?)

"The Jewish people's history is not a "rhetorical flourish" " - But then you know I said no such thing, don't you.

Harold

Adam B.
July 30th, 2010 4:52pm
"Harold - honestly, ask the Israeli hospital in which he was treated."

Okay, so I've been to the Rambam Hospital site and the IDF site...Where is it you say I'll find the information?

"It just won't do to give in to your baseless prejudices. You question it - you go and find out"

Oh, you have a gift for irony! - except you weren't meaning to be ironic, were you? You're genuinely oblivious.

I would be grateful for the source of the disembowelling story.

Augustus

It is obvious what Harold's curiosity is really about, and it is not about any concern for a mutilated Israeli commando.
The fact is that there is evidence that the Turkish government was complicit in conceiving, assisting, and involving itself in an enterprise designed solely to challenge Israel's sea blockade.
It was fronted by the IHH which concealed its intentions under the cloak of delivering humanitarian aid. And yet the lead ship, the Mavi Marmara, itself carried no humanitarian aid at all, but 40 armed and dangerous thugs, not peace activists, who subsequently took over control of the ship from its unsuspecting captain.
And there are videos of speeches
to the thugs on board making their intentions very clear. For Cameron to appease Turkey in this fashion is simply disgraceful. He will never live this episode in foreign policy down, and the meaningless lunacy
of condemning Israel in the wake of such a flotilla should be viewed with the utmost contempt.

The flotilla incident is but one
of a veritable shower of episodes which expose the moral relativism which has affected us
in the West. We choose to desert Israel at our peril. Our sense of self-preservation alone
should be enough to treat it better.

Mike Cunningham

Melanie,

Your comments reflect those of myself and many of my friends.

The man is a walking disaster area!

Allan@Aberdeen

"....his Etonian schooling and Oxford First". Moneyed dummies get into Eton and his Oxford First was in . . physics? No, it was in PPE: politics, philosophy amnd economics, where anything means whatever the writer or reader wants it to mean. He then became a PR rep and is now the PM. I had thought that there could be nobody as shallow and mendacious as Blair (Law graduate) nor as stupid as Brown (History graduate) but in Cameron, we have all of these attributes(?) perfectly aligned.

Adam B.

Andrew, let's make this simple for you: Israel is the Jewish state, the only one in the world, unlike 50+ Christian ones and 37+ Muslim ones - none of which, including completely fabricated ones, or others which were invented by colonial powers and have no historical or ethnic basis, have their legitimacy repeatedly questioned by people like you. You appeared to question whether Israel had any right to exist, and also seemed to question Jewish roots in the land. I suggest you learn about Jewish history.

You implied that the Jews didn't have "legal title". They do by any definition - either by UN validation (and I couldn't care less about the UN, but I'm sure it's important to you) or by the fact that this land was never, at any time, an independent entity other than as the Jewish state. It was almsot all state land, of the Ottoman Empire for 400 years (captured by Ottoman conquest), then of Britain (a prize of war) and even is today (over 90%).

So can you explain why you claim the Jews don't have legal title, or why you think Jewish history is invented?

In other words, why not put your cards on the table?

Adam B.

Thanks Harold - for proving my point.

It can't be verified - how could it be? What would you have the Israelis do? Anything that comes from them you automatically regard as lies, so are they expected to invite a panel of international doctors in, approved by an international body of Harold's liking, so that Harold may be convinced that the Jews of Israel aren't lying, and score a brownie point against the deluge of hate and bile heaped upon them?

Harold - it comes down to this: the activists on the ship called for violence, and expressed their wishes to become shaheeds, "martyrs" - before even sailing. They indulged in a spot of racist antisemitic chanting - before even sailing. The ship was hired by the IHH - a jihadist group linked by France to the plot to blow up Los Angeles airport, and which extolls the Taleban (currently killing British troops). They told Jewish sailors to "go back to Auschwitz". They introduced the violence by attacking the soldiers who were armed with paintball guns - you can see it all on Youtube. What do your eyes tell you? Peace activists these people were not.

Now you can believe Israel, a liberal democracy with a free press and independent judiciary, or you can believe the jihadist antisemitic fundamentalist fascists of the IHH.

I know what you've chosen already.

By the way, whilst we engage in this futile "debate", Syria, to the silence of the Israel obsessed world, is slaughtering hundreds of Kurds, with Turkish help.

No protests, no coverage, no aid flotillas.

How many blogs have you mentioned it on, Harold?

Ian Hills

As Cameron is only a distant relative of the Queen through King William IV's affair with - ahem - an "actress", as they called them in those days - could this background of his explain Cameron's two principal talents - acting and whoring?

Harold

" I am reliably informed, slit open the stomach of one of those Israeli commandos and pulled out his guts before throwing him into the sea."

After Adam B's bizarre performance, can someone tell me where to find corroboration for this? Thank you.

Andrew

Adam B.
Let's back up a little. You brandished ancient history as some sort of entitlement. I pointed out it has no hold on anyone else - only legal title would do that, or overwhelming force.

Israel is a state like any other. It meets the customary criteria. It has the same rights and obligations under international law.

The history of how it came into existence only has a practical relevance now if it encourages Israel to compromise with the people it displaced.

I see you are at your old tricks again:

"The Jewish people's history is not a "rhetorical flourish" - and it is offensive that you claim it is."

"...why you think Jewish history is invented?"

I'm pretty sure you're well aware I said neither.

MartinR

@ Harold
July 31st, 2010 10:23am
"After Adam B's bizarre performance, can someone tell me where to find corroboration for this? Thank you."

This comment looks like frustration; if you have no argument you resort to ridiculing the person you are debating with, name calling. In any debating society you have just lost! Please leave the room.

In no way where Adam B's comments bizarre! They are just not yours.

Adam B.

So Andrew, what are you trying to say?

Harold

MartinR
July 31st, 2010 3:00pm
I don't know if you had a chance to follow the whole exchange. I will reproduce it here, with apologies if you have read it.

Harold
July 29th, 2010 5:38pm
"the Turkish-backed terrorists on the Mavi Marmara who, I am reliably informed, slit open the stomach of one of those Israeli commandos and pulled out his guts before throwing him into the sea."

Corroboration?

Adam B.
July 29th, 2010 7:16pm
Harold, why don't you ask the Israeli hospital in which the soldiers were treated?

Who would convince you?

Harold
July 30th, 2010 10:57am
I'm curious about the IDF soldier who had his guts ripped out before he was thrown into the sea. The IDF talks of four moderately injured of whom two were for a time critical. Given all the falsehoods the IDF felt it had to put out to convince the world of its case, would it not be expected to make more of a soldier who had his guts ripped out?

Adam B.
July 30th, 2010 4:52pm
Harold - honestly, ask the Israeli hospital in which he was treated.

It just won't do to give in to your baseless prejudices. You question it - you go and find out.

Harold
July 30th, 2010 9:19pm
Adam B.
July 30th, 2010 4:52pm
"Harold - honestly, ask the Israeli hospital in which he was treated."

Okay, so I've been to the Rambam Hospital site and the IDF site...Where is it you say I'll find the information?

Adam B.
July 30th, 2010 10:46pm
Thanks Harold - for proving my point.

It can't be verified - how could it be? What would you have the Israelis do? Anything that comes from them you automatically regard as lies, so are they expected to invite a panel of international doctors in, approved by an international body of Harold's liking, so that Harold may be convinced that the Jews of Israel aren't lying, and score a brownie point against the deluge of hate and bile heaped upon them?

That I think is the exchange.

I should say that I started by trying to find out for myself from the IDF site and the hospital site. Adam B. appeared to propose I do preciely what I did. I assume at this stage he thought the information would be there. He certainly seems to think it has been reported somewhere - "so that Harold may be convinced that the Jews of Israel aren't lying" If it has been reported, I haven't found it, and nor, it would appear, has Adam B. Instead of simply saying as much, he turned round and declared, pace what he had advised me before, that it can't be verified.

When I asked for corroboration, I was merely looking for a source for Melanie Phillips assertion, which I'm sure you will agree is a shocking one. I cannot see anywhere in what I've said a demand for any elaborate process of verification. The allegation is shocking and, as far as I am aware, not previously aired by the Israeli authorities (which,as I said, is odd, since they have resorted to doctoring tapes etc. - why, if they have such shocking evidence of barbarity?). It seems to me natural to ask for the source. For Adam B. to lead me a dance is unhelpful, and, yes, bizarre. Why not just give the source or admit you don't know it?

Harold

Is it not curious that the plight of the Kurds has been a constant of protest by Lefties and other such contemptibles for decades (admittedly to precisely no effect whatsoever), but has attracted the attention of mainstream commentators only on the rare occasions when it fits their agenda. It was not a problem when Saddam was our man (we even provided him with the wherewithal), only when he turned out not to be our man anymore. It was not a problem when Turkey was an obedient member of NATO and we supplied them with the wherewithal (in the 90s, when the slaughter of Kurds was at its peak, Turkey was only surpassed by Israel in the US military aid it received). Now that Turkey is not quite so obedient and its Prime Minister a damned Islamist, the Kurds are again an affront to our tender consciences.

Jim Richardson

I will, If I may, offer a personal observation of my own on the current debate.

"Blindness is an absence of sight, not vision."

Michael

Spot on Melanie!! Well said indeed!! I hope and pray that this article is read by many many people, especially David Cameron. Keep up the good work!!

Linda Smith

Andrew, you wrote re Israel: “The history of how it came into existence only has a practical relevance now if it encourages Israel to compromise with the people it displaced.”

Are you also calling on the Arab states who displaced and robbed nearly a million Jews since 1948 to “compromise” with those refugees, ie make restitution?

Anyway, nearly all the "Palestinian" refugees displaced themselves at the behest of their leaders as they openly acknowledge. Furthermore, the “Palestinians” don’t want to “compromise” with Israel, they want to destroy it. I suggest you do some factual research instead of spouting twaddle - Palestinian Media Watch is a good starting place.

St Bruno

Well said Melanie.

To put it in a nutshell. Britain paid for the victory in WW2 with the loss of our empire and debt to USA, hence all the gold was shipped to pay for weapons and food. The last debt payment was paid only a couple of years ago.

As I write this there are 148 comments posted, just shows the interest the subject matter can generate.
Full marks should be extended to the Editor of the Spectator for allowing you to express your undoubted knowledge of the subject and forthright way you draw all the facts together. No other media platform does a better job in such a way. The BBC sits back to pour the drivel of biased reporting and expects the British people to follow them to a diverse society full of friendly Jihadists and other such people who feel the need to destroy us for the cause of peace. The so called news papers follow an agenda to boost their print runs and profits and follow the Editor’s Code of Conduct as dictated by the NUJ but bash all other unions and people under the self- righteous code of following the political leaders for expediency.

A link to a talk by Raphael Israeli. I hope after watching it you will see the reason why the talk is relevant to include here. It is 39 minutes long but worth every second in my humble opinion. I think most of the subject as it applies to America can also be seen to apply to Britain and Europe: Islam knows no boundaries where Jihad is concerned. A bit non-PC in parts, as is the whole subject.
http://vimeo.com/13453619

Mr Cameroon is a politician with all the tools of his office at his disposal. Does he really think that 10,000 outraged Muslims will picket his House for saying something sensible for a change about Israel and Turkey. Another fine mess you’ve gotten yourself into. Just, maybe, just, the future will prove him correct in what he said but Turkey in the EU is a vision from hell and the demise of Israel another one. Can’t he see that all the frontiers of the Islamic world and more are in conflict. The dreadful surrender of Kosovo to basically the Muslim world is seen by them as the West’s first loss and there are many more in the melting pot, least of all Israel.

Derek BLADES

I see that Dixon has a hang up about squat loos in shopping malls. Here in France we have had them for many years. Medical opinion is firmly in favour of the squatters rather than sitters like Dixon. It is the natural position to ensure thorough evacuation and accounts for the lower rates of colorectal cancer in the non-Western world where squatting is the norm. Most of Asia, Africa and Latin America do it like that so why not a few squat loos in Britain's shopping malls. Dixon should get out a bit in the real world and perhaps even try one.

C.Gee

Kenneth Varner:
"The current apartheid regime, including what Cameron accurately characterized as the prison camp of Gaza, is corrosive both to Israel's moral health and the West's relations with the Islamic world."

Is Hamas corrosive to the moral health of the Palestinians? What makes a morally healthy nation? Are the West's interests in relations with the Arab/Muslim world - but not Israel - moral?
Why do you think, on current form, that you are qualified to say anything about moral health?

C. Gee

Harold and Kenneth Varner:

Letter from Israel Commando on “Operation Sea Breeze”

"Hello Uncle Erwin,

This is Amir writing you after reading what you sent to my father, Eitan.

As you know, it was my unit and my friends who were on the ship. My commander was injured badly as a result of the "pacifists" violence. I want to tell you how he was injured so you could tell the story. It shows just how horrible and inhuman were the activists. My commander was the first soldier that rappelled down from the helicopter to the ship.

When he touched ground, he got hit in the head with a pole and stabbed in the stomach with a knife. When he drew out his secondary weapon-a handgun (his primary weapon was a regular paintball gun: "Tippman 98 custom") he was shot in the leg. He managed to fire a single shot before he was tossed from the balcony by 4 Arab activists, to the lower deck (a 12 feet fall).

He was then dragged by other activists to a room in the lower deck where he was stripped down by 2 activists. They took off his vest, helmet and shirt, leaving him with only his pants and shoes on. When they finished they took a knife and expanded the wound he already had in his stomach. They cut his ab(dominal) muscles horizontally and by hand spilled his guts out. When they finished they raised him up and walked him on the deck outside. He was conscious the whole time.

If you are asking yourself why they did all that, here comes the reason. They wanted to show the soldiers their commander's body so they will be demoralized and scared. Luckily, when they walked him on the deck a soldier saw him and managed to shoot the activist that was walking him down the outside corridor.

He shot him with a special non-lethal bullet that didn't kill him. My commander managed to jump from the deck to the water and swim to an army rescue boat (his guts still out of his body, and now in salty sea water). That was how he was saved. The activists that did this to him are alive, now in Turkey, and treated as heroes.

I'm sorry if I described this with too many details, but I thought it was necessary for the credibility. Please tell this story to anyone who will listen. I think that these days you are one of Israel's best spokesmen.

Thanks Uncle Erwin, Shabbat shalom!

Amir"

Andrew

Linda Smith,
"nearly all the "Palestinian" refugees displaced themselves at the behest of their leaders as they openly acknowledge"

"I suggest you do some factual research instead of spouting twaddle"

It is puzzling you should repeat old propaganda instead of consulting reputable Israeli historiography.

Also, while the refugees may certainly seek restitution from the Arab states, I'm sure you understand that it is a separate question from Israel agreeing a peace settlement with the Palestinians.

Miranda Rose Smith

Andrew, you wrote re Israel: “The history of how it came into existence only has a practical relevance now if it encourages Israel to compromise with the people it displaced.”

Are you also calling on the Arab states who displaced and robbed nearly a million Jews since 1948 to “compromise” with those refugees, ie make restitution?

Anyway, nearly all the "Palestinian" refugees displaced themselves at the behest of their leaders as they openly acknowledge. Furthermore, the “Palestinians” don’t want to “compromise” with Israel, they want to destroy it. I suggest you do some factual research instead of spouting twaddle - Palestinian Media Watch is a good starting place.

Dear Ms. Smith: You took the words right off my keyboard!

Dear Andrew: What people did the Israelis displace? Israel expelled SOME ARABS, after five Arab states rejected the U.N. partition plan and attacked Israel. Other ARABS left Israel voluntarily, thinking Israel would be defeated in a week and they could come back and loot Jewish property. Other ARABS stayed in Israel and their descendants vote, sit in the Knesset, attend universities.

Miranda Rose Smith

Yes, prior to the election, Cameron was filmed riding his bike and in the background, his large, private Lexus saloon car (limo was my exaggeration) followed behind, carrying his case, papers etc. Now call me a cynic but either you ride, or you go by car. When you do both, you're hoping the world will think you a caring environmentalist, while not noticing that in fact, you are a hypocrite. As I said before, he takes us all for fools.

Dear Cityca: This man could put Monty Python right out of business.

Your comments on this thrtead are very aposite. As a gay, you worry about the future in an Islamist society. As a Jew, I do too. What is hards to understand is why those in the main stream media, women in general and anyone on the left or of a liberal disposition is just as much at risk, one way or the other.

Talk about useful idiots!

As it happens, I'm not gay. I told Mr. R I "shared his fears" about the future in an Islamist society because I am an Jew and a woman.

Polly Gamma

Age old wisdom... Keep your enemies close. Maybe Cameron believes if you can maintain sensible diplomatic relations with Iran’s VERY large neighbour we will then be heading towards some solution. Maybe part of his reasoning is that he recognises Gaza IS a prison camp primarily because Gaza purposely nurtures it's valuable self-serving prison camp image to feed its own lifeblood of victimhood propaganda which the unhealthy factions in Iran also need to obfuscate their evil intentions.

I agree there really is no option but to get in amongst them and weed 'them' out (by 'them' I mean the wide and varied realms of sinister agitators embedded within political circles all over the world). We do need to diplomatise and nullify the sanctimonious spoilers as best we can by removing the sticks we keep providing for them to beat us with. Use of intelligent diplomatic skills combined with new high speed media technology and instant worldwide new coverage nowadays can expose the agitators and the spoilers more into behaving like proper adults or risk revealing themselves as the evil dissemblers they really are. We can expose them more comprehensively if we are inveigling within their camps rather than cementing a rigid anachronistic stance of self sabotage which makes us more ineffective at protecting our best interests at home and abroad. I am unusual on this site because I think David Cameron and William Hague have honourable intentions and I think they are capable forging a new way ahead for Britain. I also believe their aim is to protect Israel’s best interests and any guileless innocent pawns in Gaza too.

Yes the battlegrounds achievements and sacrifices of the past should be revered celebrated and blessed for the part they’ve played in human progress... in their time. We have effective new tools for stealth diplomacy in the new technological age. I say let’s start looking at it more realistically

Harold

So now we have something more to go on than Adam B.'s embarassing squirmings.

C. Gee, it is disconcerting of you to turn up to dispense pseudo legal opinions, or to accuse others of crediting protocols and blood libels, and then to disappear when challenged - but thank you for turning up once more quoting the source of this shocking claim. You don't mention how the letter became public. The account I've found is that it was received by one Dina Moskowitz (a report editor (?) at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem), who passed it to "an Israeli Forum", where it was picked up by one Ovad Yah Avrahami of Kol Ha Tor, a Jewish Orthodox Organisation whose mission is to become a "bridge" (?) for the prophetic Return of the Lost Tribes of Israel (if you want to know who they are, here is how they explain it themselves: "You are Israel! The History was Revealed by the Prophets and Confirmed by Archeology, the Judgment of the God of Israel was Sealed as they were Exiled to Khurasan in Northern Iran, Eastern Afghanistan and Western Pakistan. They Disappeared into the Mists of History as they Migrated in Waves up through Georgia through the Caucasus and Followed the Tracks of their Cousin Dan who left his Name on the Rivers of his Passage (Don, Dniester, Dnieper, and the Danube) as they Migrated Northwestward towards Denmark. They Erupted into Northern Europe in the 3rd Century BCE as the Royal Scythians, Celts, Cymrics, Cimmerians, Goths, Angles, Saxons, Ostrogoths, Visigoths and Frisians. They Populated the Lands of Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark), the Isles of the West (Britain, Ireland, and Scotland) the Lowlands (Netherlands and Belgium), the Colonies of Great Britain (United States, Canada, Australia, South Africa) plus the Lands of Northern France, and Germany. These today are the Lost Tribes of Israel! If your Ancestry comes from any of these Lands, Welcome, You are a “Lost Ten Triber” of the House of Israel! The Prophets have Proclaimed, at the Time of the End, You will Return Home!")

The IDF makes no mention of the atrocious attack, despite its otherwise hyperactive propaganda. The hospital where the injured were treated makes no mention of it in its bulletins despite detailing the soldiers' injuries and condition. The IDF Chief of Staff Ashkenazi in his televised visit to the injured didn't mention it and nor did the injured themselves. But Amir wrote to Dina and Ovad Yah Avrahami, a bridge for the prophetic Return of the Lost Tribes of Israel, picked it up and posted it on his blog.

And this is the "reliable" informant.

One conclusion we can draw already is that, despite the truculent inanities about "Mighty Mouse", David Cameron was right that "we should expect the Israeli inquiry to be swift, transparent and rigorous". Otherwise, how much more of this stuff will be spread about?

Lindsay

We can all look forward to "Amir's" testimony at the inquiry Mr. Cameron mentioned.

Esther Minsky

Has Cameron forgotten the Armenian genocide? Maybe his good Turkish friends have convined him it never really happened!

Adam B.

Any answer to the points I put to you Harold at 10.46pm?

C.Gee

Harold:

I do not know whether Amir's letter is "the" source or "a" source, or Melanie's source. I googled and was rewarded by a site other than Melanie's which mentioned it.

Your triumphant savoring of that group's peculiar view of history does not prove anything about the reliability of Amir's statement. (Or about the reliability of the group, for that matter).

Neither does the silence of the IDF prove that the incident did not happen. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

And I suspect that the standards of proof you demand of the IDF or any pro-Israel commentators are a lot more stringent than you demand of Hamas or anti-Israel forces. When do you believe the IDF and when do you think it is lying?

I can think of at least one reason why the IDF does not trumpet the incident: it would generate gloating amongst Israel's enemies and lower morale in Israel. The perception of commando efficiency took a bad enough knock in the flotilla attack without details of disembowelment.

It is for this reason that Israel generally does not turn tragedy into photo-ops, unlike the Palestinians. In fact, the Palestinians specialize in photo-shop "tragedy".

Tell you what. It always comes down to this. You believe your side's propaganda, I'll believe mine.

As for my "disappearing when challenged" - did you challenge me? I do not usually find moral poseurs challenging.

Harold

It would appear that Ms. Moskowitz is not the source, who, however reliable, remains strangely elusive:

Dear Dina Moskowitz,

"...this information below is spreading rapidly via the internet, mainly on blogs, and was forwarded to me by 2 people who consider it true and want it published.

I have a hard time considering this to be factual, but I always check out.

Can you confirm or deny you are the source of this story? If you are the source, have you checked the story and how?

If this is a hoax it should be clarified. If this is true and the story is true the same applies.

All the best,

Dirk Pohlmann (german freelance tv journalist)

The reason I contacted her was this information from this blog: http://biblesearchers.typepad.com/destination-yisrael/

Unedited quote:

This letter was first received by Dina Moskowitz, report editor at the Hebrew University at Jerusalem. It was then sent to an Israeli Forum in which one of the recipients, the Jewish Orthodox director, OvadYah Avrahami, of Kol Ha Tor that is a Jewish Orthodox Organization whose dedicated mission is to become a “bridge” for the prophetic Return of the Lost Tribes of Israel and was sent to the Kol Ha Tor leadership team.

Meanwhile I got an answer from Dina Moskowitz. Sort of. See below. I will stop this, as it becomes disgusting and I have no intention to face more hate mails. There is obviously not much focus on getting the facts right.
Draw your own conclusions.

Unedited quote:

I have no idea how you arrived at me. I received that from someone else and forwarded it along, as did many other people, a few days after the flotilla affair. I have not seen any refutation of that soldier’s story since. The fact that I passed this along, by the way, has nothing to do with my position as a report editor at the University, so why mention that at all, other than out of your desire to get me in trouble with the University?

In light of all of the videos actually taken aboard the ship during the time of the raid, and of the soldiers’ wounds, I have no trouble believing his account to be factual, even though it might be too terrible for your delicate and politically correct sensibilities.

Do you also have the same hard time considering the Holocaust, perpetrated by your country, to be factual, too? Just curious.

Yes, Mr. German Journalist, the flotilla “humanitarians” learned really well from your predecessors and countrymen re how to treat Jews.

Since you are obviously a part of the problem, being part of the anti-Israel AND anti-Semitic media that twists the facts around to suit their purposes instead of reporting the truth, don’t dare bother contacting me again under any circumstances or for any reason.

Miranda Rose Smith

Your comments on this thread are very aposite.

Dear Cityca: Thank you.

Harold

C.Gee
August 2nd, 2010 12:05am

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence." True, but of limited value here. If you take it as your rule, you will consider yourself justified in believing all sorts of stuff, as no doubt you do.

The more implausible the claim, the more credible the witness has to be.

The account itself, its inconsistency with all other accounts, the IDF's silence (despite its vociferous and detailed accounts of all other injuries to its soldiers), the hospital's silence despite detailed bulletins, the evident difficulty in supplying the source of the claim, all mean that we should not give it credence without further information.

"You believe your side's propaganda, I'll believe mine." You are mistaken. I certainly expressed scepticism, which I have justifed, and asked for coroborration. I also agreed with Mr. Cameron, on this if on little else, that there should be a rigourous inquiry. You evidently do feel free to believe propaganda.

I didn't make myself clear. It was other "moral poseurs" you evaded. In one instance, you had given a pseudo-legal explanation of how those forced from their property at gunpoint and denied return at gunpoint thereby forfeited title to their property (the actual legal term for this is theft). In another instance, you berated a poseur, for no reason that I could see, for believing in protocols and blood libels (out of gullibility or malice I don't recall) - ironic, that one. I had hoped for a ding-dong bout that might get down to some serious points. But, as I say, you made yourself scarce.

Maturecheese

I have been weeping for Britain for at least a decade. Watching your once great and proud nation become a basket case really is upsetting but what is worse is my fellow countryman's acquiescence.

mostly harmless

Kenneth Varner
July 30th, 2010 12:46am

Great post ;)

Adam B.

Harold decides to believe the fundamentalist antisemitic racist jihadist IHH over a liberal democracy. Such is the sickness.

He spends hours scouring the internet, trying to disprove something which can't be proved - whilst he couldn't care less about a genocide against the Kurds - carried out by Turkey and Syria - because he can't blame Israel for it.

Harold, why don't you phone every Israeli hiospital which exists, and you can ask them?

Adam B.

Varner, Israel is neither "apartheid" nor a "regime" - it is democratically elected. All citizens, regardless of race, have the vote, and the right to establish political parties. It is the only country of the region with an independent judiciary and a free press.

Such silly labels and slogans achieve nothing other tha to expose your own inability to think.

Harold

Adam B.
August 2nd, 2010 5:16pm
Is this what you were so concerned to have posted? This?

As far as I can see no official representative of Israel has made the allegation we are concerned with here. And no-one from the IHH has had any reason to comment on it. So your first paragraph is bollocks.

" trying to disprove something which can't be proved" I asked for coroborration. We were told it was "reliable". Yet we still don't have it. What we have is dishonesty, ducking and weaving, and quite shocking insouciance about truth, evidence, and the balance of probabilities - just so long as the story confirms your prejudices.

"he couldn't care less about a genocide against the Kurds - carried out by Turkey". This is sneering impertinence and ignorant presumption.

"why don't you phone every Israeli hiospital which exists, and you can ask them". That's it, is it? This is what we get when we ask for the "reliable" source? You couldn't just admit you don't know the source and believe the story anyway?

Anyone with a shred of self-respect would be ashamed of a performance such as yours on this thread.

Nick

Hadrian: with France, Germany and Cyprus in the EU I think it can safely be said Turkey's chances of joining are comparable to that of Western Samoa

C.Gee

Harold:

You say you are shocked by this alleged incident. Why? Is it the deliberate exposing of the guts that you balk at? Evisceration - like beheading, torture, rape, cutting off genitals and stuffing them in mouths, and other acts of dishonor to an enemy - is routine practice in Arab warfare. Think of it as a stabbing Arabesque. Or as leftists might, as a cultural tradition expressing authentic rage. Viewed as a stabbing, which the victim survived, the incident is not inconsistent with reports.

Whether or not - and how far - the intestines were exposed may or may not emerge in the investigation. The truth of the matter will make no difference to the anti-Zionists. To some, if it occurred - it was deserved. Others will continue to call the truth a lie. If guts were not, or not very much, spilled in the stabbing, then the exaggeration will prove that the IDF and Israel always lies. The brutal fact of the stabbing - even without disembowelment - will be forgotten. All statements from official spokesmen or pro-Zionists will be regarded with even more skepticism and held to ever greater scrutiny. It will be adduced as evidence that the Zionist version of history is a lie, that Arab aggression is a lie.

On the other hand, none of the blatant, risible, whoppers told by the Arabs is too much to swallow and broadcast by the Western press. It is not gullibility, but cynicism. The public was informed months later that there was no massacre at Jenin, but nevertheless that propaganda is what is believed - not perhaps among the intelligentsia for its exact truth - but for the truthiness of what it says of Israeli brutality. And Saeb Erekat - the main promoter of the massacre meme - is still a spokesman for Palestinians and accorded respect untainted by skepticism.

The projection onto Israel and the Jews of the racially motivated, religiously and ideologically inculcated blood-lust so proudly exhibited in her enemies is just one symptom of the madness we recognize as antisemitism. The different moral standards deployed to evaluate Israel, the quickness to accept as “international law” ex post facto condemnations by her enemies of Israel alone and no other nation, all for the purpose of demonizing Israel - putting it beyond humanity - are also symptoms of that mental sickness.

When I call someone an anti-semite, I do not do so to insult. I recognize that very few people are genuinely outraged that they should be accused of hating Jews and Israel. In fact, anti-semites enjoy being called anti-semites as it affords them the opportunity to pretend that the accusation is designed to “shut them up”. If only it would shut them up. No, I call someone an anti-semite - and I do not really care whether it is conscious or ignorant Jew-hating - because when one’s interlocutor is not rational, it is ridiculous to continue the argument as if he were. There may be a therapeutic point in humoring a madman by colluding with him in believing aliens are listening to us. There is no justification in colluding with anti-semites in discussions about Israel’s moral or legal standing. I call antisemitism as a way of warning others of poison. It is my civic duty.

JW

Adam B.
What an extraordinary series of posts. And all because you are unable to find a reliable source for an extraordinary claim. Still, I'm sure you'll be able to find any number of global outrages to talk about instead of attending to the matter at hand.In sum, you hold a belief for which you have no adequate grounds - I suggest you consult your conscience on what to do about that. As to Harold, I applaud his patience.

Harold

C. Gee,
This is not an appropriate response to a request for corroboration of a story that on the face of it is highly improbable.

You allow yourself standards of proof that will have you believing all sorts of stuff, if it suits.

If you are going to transform every criticism of Israel into hideous phantasmagorical figments and feverish and overwrought imaginings, and take this as reason to shout abuse instead of responding to the criticism, you are betraying your civic duty in a liberal democracy of upholding free speach and engaging in rational debate.

Adam B.

Harold, I couldn't care less about what you believe. I do however care about the constant and relentless series of accusations you aim at Israel, and the sheer hatred which your language, over many threads, has exposed. This isn't an honest debate. You aren't concerned about truth - your whole motive here is to try to claim that Israelis lie; you hold them to a different standard of proof than you do the IHH (who you have consistently believed, despite a lack of corroboration there - you have repeatedly parroted their version of events in previous blogs). This displays an inherent bias in your thinking - and again, it comes down to whether you are more likely to believe a jihadist terror supporting racist organization, or a liberal democracy. Now the extent to which the Israeli's guts were hanging out is beside the point. I can't corroborate it, and neither can you. The fact remains that several of the soldiers were stabbed, others shot, thrown overboard, beaten to a state of unconsciousness, by a group of racist IHH supporters.

You're not honest about your motives, and honesty is the foundation of truth. Consequently, I am, to put it mildly, sceptical about what you're after, and why.

JW, you have in the past shown yourself to be viscerally hostile to Israel, so surprise surprise, you're a cheerleader for Harold. Like you're after the truth as well...For both of you, Israel can do no right, whilst jihadist groups do no wrong - ever. That's not honest, and it certainly isn't the truth.

Travis

David Cameron is a Progressive so we should not be surprised. He wants to bring conservatism away from Thatcherism just like Bush wanted to get rid of Reaganism and replace it with "compassionate conservatism". Cameron is a pasty faced fool.

Harold

Adam B.
August 3rd, 2010 12:27pm

I am surprised you have the gall to continue with your self-righteous preachifying and self-justifying rationalisations after (to be blunt) making such a complete arse of yourself on this thread. You simply haven't the gumption to admit even to yourself that you were bluffing and had no knowledge of the provenance of the accusation nor of it accuracy, but wanted to be indignant at my expense nonetheless.

Liliane

The writer of this article should become PRIME MINISTER, BRILLIANT BIT OF WRITING. England is in big trouble with the likes of David Cameron. Wake up Britain before it's to late Melanie you are an amazing woman

JW

No Adam. Actually am a supporter of Israel. Just don't like evaders and smearers who discredit good causes. Have never been 'viscerally hostile' to Israel. Anyway, I'll leave you to your shameful meanderings - meanderings which usefully create a smokescreen around your inability to back up your claims.

Augustus

Harold - The spilling of guts story can't possibly be true -
it's a far too coarse action for any 'peace activist' to undertake.

kasou

One thing for sure David didnt do well in History at Eton.

Adam B.

Harold, for the enth time, this isn't about the Israeli being stabbed (and stabbed he was, like several other Israelis). It is about your irrational hatred of Israel. Why is this such a burning issue for you? Does it matter whether the Israeli guy's guts were partially hanging out, completely hanging out, or he was (only) stabbed by jihadists?

My whole point to you, which you have spectacularly failed to grasp, is that your motive behind this is to try to discredit Israel - you aren't really interested in the story, you're interested in finding ammunition for your own political ends. That's not an interest in truth - it's completely dishonest politicking. At least have the honesty to admit it.

How on earth could this story be "verified" to please you? The word of an Israeli hospital, or the Israeli government, or the Israeli army would be instantly dismissed by you. But who else would know? So you can sit back and say "look, it hasn't been verified, so it's probably untrue."

Lindsay

Adam B.
August 5th, 2010 12:29pm
And so what you can persuade yourself you meant all along evolves with each new telling.

Andrei

Adam B.
The question is a very simple one: should a journalist make a serious allegation without corroboration. You have been studious, not to say toruous, in your efforts to avoid this simple question.

Adam B.

Andrei, Melanie writes "I am reliably informed..." meaning she has a source which has informed her of this being the case. Now it is common journalistic practice to do this, and it is absurd that you seem to think that journalists need to provide footnotes for every claim they make. If you wish to try and disprove Melanie, fine. Just don't pretend that Harold's motives aren't based on hating Israel, which he has demonstrated time and again. He also asks for a different burden of proof from Israel than he has previously from the IHH - that's hypocrisy Andrei.
Lindsay, I can't help you with your comprehension skills.

Andrei

Adam B.
August 6th, 2010 12:54pm
This reply seems not to understand what I say and what Harold. He did not have any reason to say burden of proof with either Israel or IHH. It is this blog which repeated allegation. Journalists do not reveal source when it would put source at risk. To use this to make allegation without supporting it with evidence is not justified. This is bad journalistic practice. I did not ask for footnotes. This is silly. I did not say I could disprove. This is silly. All that is asked is some reason to believe allegation from credible source. It is not honest to disguise lack of credible source with shouting about people not trusting Israel.

Mira Manoah

This was written before the news emerged this week from Germany that the Turkish army used chemical weapons again the Kurdish rebels.

Obviously Cameron desires the Muslim vote in the U.K. he is running alongside Obama and ignoring the obvious.