Poodle in a mirror?

Miranda Rose Smith

Calling Cameron a poodle is an insult to the memory of my mother's beloved Nicky.

GeoffM

A piece of text from the Cypriot Embassy concerning the behaviour of Turks in occupied Northern Cyprus:-

"(5) Churches:

In 1974 there were more than 520 Greek Orthodox and Armenian churches in the occupied area. There is information on the fate of 244 of these.Based on this information 100 were looted or vandalized, 68 were converted to mosques, 14 are used by the Turkish military, 11 are used as sheep pens/stables and one as a barn. The loss in terms of structures (including a number of churches pulled down), fittings and movable items, in particular valuable icons, is enormous in terms of both cultural and monetary value.

As is the loss due to vandalism and the defacing of frescoes, buildings and monuments etc. The change in the use of buildings of Christian worship is especially aggravating (i.e. Ayia Anastasia church, the Armenian monastery of St. Magar).

(6) Icons:

Most of the movable items in churches have been stolen, removed or destroyed. Valuable icons, wall paintings or fixtures of churches, all stolen are found in art galleries or other locations throughout the world. The 1997 arrest in Germany of one Turkish smuggler of cultural property, brought to light hundreds of icons stolen from 46 churches in the occupied area. Overall, however, it is estimated that over 15,000 icons are missing. Some of these have been put up for sale by art dealers in Western Europe and innocent European buyers have fallen victim to the smugglers.

(7) Cemeteries:

Most of the Greek Orthodox and Armenian Cemeteries in the occupied area have been destroyed. Evidence is available for 26 cemeteries that have been totally destroyed. "

And yet Camron thinks these Islamist monsters should be rewarded with EU membership?

Andy Gill

The prospect of Turkey joining the EU would bring the ordinary people of Europe onto the streets.

The EU electorate would never consent to being ruled from Brussels by an Islamic country.

Bedd Gelert

Mel, Mel, Mel..

Just because someone else is doing something bad, and people aren't protesting about Turkey, Rwanda, Zimbabwe etc. etc. is not a defence for Israel behaving badly.

Of course, many Arab countries and Moslems behave badly as well - but saying 'punish them first' is the politics of the playground [He was doing at as well, Miss !] is it not ??

But yes, a fair point that fair and even-handed criticism is what is required, although I do not think it is quite enough to get Israel 'off the hook'.

British Patriot

Cameron puts Britain first! not any other country. Britain needs to have an independent foreign policy and lift herself on the world stage. Some of these negative commentators really dont help and all they can do is moan - reminds me of that series - one foot in the grave.

Johnnie Barleycorn

We must remember also the expulsion of the Greeks from Turkey as a wave of nationalism swept the the country. I visited Turkey many years ago and saw the sad remains of churches throughout Anatolia, the people gone, the vineyards overgrown. Most appalling of all, to my mind, was the use of the great cathedral, St Sophia, as a mosque. What ever the Turkish authorities claim, Christians and Jews are not free to practice their faith openly. The Turks themselves are great people - like so many Muslims, very hospitable and good fun. I spent many an evening drinking beer and eating endless plates of meze with real characters in Flower Sellers Alley, a small street entirely given over to pavement restaurants and bars. This was in old Istanbul. I wonder what will be come of such places as islam re-asserts its iron grip. Sadly Turkey , despite Ataturk's best efforts, is slipping back to the dark side of Islamic hegemony as recent remarks by Mr Erdogan confirm.

RR

I remember the desperation I felt when Brown/Blair were in power and the relief when they were voted out. Now that feeling is back. Another unprincipled, amoral opportunist. Worst of all, we have nowhere left to go when they create their multi-culti heaven in euroland.

Yisrael Medad

Don't forget - Mr. Cameron's remarks were made before businessmen. They only understand pounds and pennies. Or, in other words, morality in politics?

EJT

"we want you to continue to work towards a solution in Cyprus"

This is a fantasy - Turkey has control of the North and has no reason to leave. More often than not, the South gets labeled as the villains. This time round, Turkey is clearly quashing potential agreement by putting an "ultra-nationalist" in power in the North, who is publicly unraveling whatever progress had been made between Christofias and Talat.

Miranda Rose Smith

Just because someone else is doing something bad, and people aren't protesting about Turkey, Rwanda, Zimbabwe etc. etc. is not a defence for Israel behaving badly.

Dear Mr. Gelert: Just exactly how is Israel behaving badly? In my opinion, Israel is behaving astoundingly well.

Okey

Bedd Gelert: Israel does not "behave badly."
Israel defends itself, using moral means, against its implacable,obsessive, genocidal enemies.
Don't believe the nonsense that uninformed, lazy or malicious journalists and politicians try to feed you.
Instead, research what those Arab and other Islamic reporters and commentators who are courageous enough to publish the truth, say about the conflict.
You could start with Khaled abu-Toameh and Sheikh Palazzi, Italy's supreme Moslem cleric.

Derek Pasquill

After Bush's poodle an alternative breed is required to savour Cameron's asininity:

Obama's dachshund?

hush-puppy?

beagle?

chihuahua?

pug?

whippet?

Whatever one might call him, shame on the Tories for producing this cur.

Greg

I normally eschew conspiracy theories but I strongly suspect Obama's hand in this. The BP and Lockerbie fiascoes have put the UK firmly on the back foot vis-a-vis the US and I can just imagine Cameron appeasing Obama in this fashion.

The more interesting question is why oh why is the US so keen on integrating Turkey into the EU? Does the US actually believe world security will benefit or do they just wish an albatross round Europe's neck?

Bob

Dave was sold to us as a conservative...under the sale of goods act we should be able to get our money back for false description

Perhaps one of our Sikh or Hindu friends could help Dave understand the problems that we face.

If you want to know what is in store for the USA/UK/Europe, just read a little about Hindu/Indian history. They have had 1400 years of mayhem from Islam, and with new found oil wealth it is only going to get worse.

Muslims do not and have never lived in peace with non muslims, so why do we in the West think that we will be different.

raymond

Labour were Rubbish. That is indisputable. But Cameron is just as bad, if not worse. Scripture clearly says that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed. Cameron is bringing our country even more under the curse of God !

cityca

Bedd Gelert

Israel is not on the hook. Anyone with a brain can distinguish between a democracy that acts to protect its citizens and a group of politically motivated theologies, focussed on destruction and supported by politicians and the msm who would not know a principle if it jumped up and bit them.

Your patronising address to Miss Phillips is also way out of line.

John Zeno

Thank you, Melanie, for this very good piece on Cyprus, Turkey and the UK. But it does amuse me that post the Gaza flotilla incident, Israel and its defenders have suddenly discovered that Turkey is occupying Cyprus. It didn't seem to bother them so much when Turkey and Israel were in each other's pockets. Realpolitik and all that, I guess. Still, if a strategic alliance should now develop between Greece, Cyprus and Israel, it would be a much more natural alliance than the one between Israel and Turkey. After all, for better or worse, the world we live in is largely the product of Greek and Jewish thinking – and, often, the fusion of the two.

Miranda Rose Smith

Obama's dachshund?

hush-puppy?

beagle?

chihuahua?

pug?

whippet?

Whatever one might call him, shame on the Tories for producing this cur

Dear Mr. Pasquill: Don't insult dogs. I love dogs. I've often thought it would be a good thing if people who lead totally useless lives, say, as drugged-out rock stars, could be re-incarnated as dogs, specifically as guide dogs, drug dogs, bomb dogs or tracker dogs and lead totally useful lives.

A hush-puppy is something you eat. Don't insult food.

Derek Pasquill

Flashback three years and what do we find - a report in the Times describing Cameron's intention to confront the Saudi Arabian king, while on a state visit to the UK, about extremist Saudi material found at British mosques.

Article here:

http://tinyurl.com/3ycusv9

How things change once a party gains power.

Raymond in DC

I've been referring to Israel's Defense Minister, Ehud Barak, as "Obama's poodle", but it appears Obama has no problem handling more than one dog. I too find Cameron's suck-up to Turkey both indecent and unwise. (Israel's Barak and Ben-Eliezer do likewise, but more quietly.)

In the US we have a term - RINO - for those considered Republicans in Name Only. CINO doesn't quite roll off the tongue, but if Churchill and Thatcher were Conservatives, Cameron clearly is not one.

Adam B.

Bedd Gelert, your analysis is wrong. We live in a world where the bullies of the playground are rewarded, (Turkey) whilst one who defends herself (Israel) against the bullies is punished.

Jack R

Melanie, you are right in what you say about both Turkey and Israel.

Cameron comes over as the marketing man he is, in this case, marketing for Erdogan.Cameron's historical knowledge of Turkey (and Cyprus) as well as that of Israel is severely lacking.

Not only is the Tory Parliamentary Party happy to be with the Lib Dems, but happy to be with the Islamic ambitions of Erdogan. On the vital issues of Turkey and Israel, the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour are virtually indistinguishable, and these mainstreaam parties must be alienating the potential political support of many British people.
Where, in any of these parties is there a potential leader who will publicly oppose Turkey's EU membership,oppose mass immigration, oppose EU membership, support Israel? There is no one. Geert Wilders happens to be Dutch.

Augustus

Turkey isn't geographically part of Europe, and it isn't culturally, politically, and financially competent to be part of it either. And bringing General de Gaulle's speech about Britain in the 1960s into the argument was as crass and unintelligent as it was irrelevant. This is not the speech of an intelligent and far-sighted Conservative politician, and his reference to
the Gaza flotilla incident was not only misguided, it was ridiculous to call a place in which Israel has had no political influence for years a 'prison camp'. Any sensible person knows that the situation there is the result of the Hamas rules and priorities under which the inhabitants of Gaza are compelled to live. Certainly odd, this flirtation with Turkey, there can't be that much benefit in it. Is this
the new multicultural style Britain which Cameron represents? Or is he just being blinded by his own mirror image?

Derek Pasquill

Time to recall the Glorious Revolution of 1688 when William of Orange overthrew James II.

"Already troubled by the King's Catholicism and his close ties with France, key leaders of the Tories united with members of the opposition Whigs and set out to resolve the crisis by inviting William of Orange to England."

Substitute Islam for Catholicism and Wilders for Orange and Bob's your uncle.

Brad Brzezinski

Bedd Gelert: "... not a defence for Israel behaving badly."

When we see obvious bad behaviour everywhere but only one country being blamed, it raises the suspicion - actually, likelihood - that the scapegoat is innocent.

Okey

John Zeno: Israel and its supporters have not "suddenly" discovered Turkey's crimes against Cyprus.
Israel's enemies have, however, for 62 years compelled it to struggle for sheer survival, and we have been preoccupied with that, our human resources having been depleted by the world's almost total indifference to the Europeans' genocide against us in 1939-45. Hence Israel has good reasons to practise realpolitik, to the very limited degree that it is able to do so.
Does the rest of the world have moral reasons to disregard those crimes, as well as those practised by Spain against the Basque nation; those of Syria,Turkey and Iraq against the Kurdish nation; those of China against the Tibetan nation ?

Dixon

"Greg
July 28th, 2010 11:32am
I normally eschew conspiracy theories but I strongly suspect Obama's hand in this. The BP and Lockerbie fiascoes have put the UK firmly on the back foot vis-a-vis the US and I can just imagine Cameron appeasing Obama in this fashion."

But Greg, it has now been revealed in the US that Obama was himself responsible for the release of Meghrachy!

...but what I really wanted to say is, to those here who voted for Dave hoping (and saying on these debates) that he would be a corrective to NuLabr...nah, nah, nee, nah nah (witness my little gleeful jig as I nah nah thee) ...I TOLD YOU SO!!"!"!

Dixon

Miranda Rosec Smith...Dve as Obamms "bomb dog"...you could be on to something there, the one tht gets bombed for the sake of its master!

Dixon

Dogs, well they are Ok but you do need to distinguish between Dave and Tony, so what we should call him is a type of cat...no, I dont want to insult felines...I refer to Dave The Obama CATAMITE!

Eugene

Pity the Kurds, abandoned by the cynical west to genocide by Turkey and Syria. What about letting them have a state of their own?

roger

Enough of this Poodlephobia. Cameron is more like a whippet.

Some light relief:

I went to a zoo the other day and the only animal there was a dog. It was a shitzu.

Robins

Another Turkish crime Cameron ignored:
It seems to be a little-known fact that Turkey, in addition to its responsibility for a genocidal-scale slaughter against Armenia in WWI, has imposed a total blockade against landlocked Armenia for nearly 20 years, reducing its GDP by 40% and halving its exports. Armenia is in dire economic straights and is in receipt of $150 million aid a year - but the blockade costs it 5 times as much.
http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=11298
http://hetq.am/en/politics/a-papyan-17/

Veracity

Go back to your 'Bedd' (grave) Gelert. but Gelert was a fearless and loyal hound and rather like Obama's new puppy , I think your rather unfortunate turn of phrase reflects badly on dogs.

Dave

Europe's Jewish Problem

Cameron has sat himself at the negotiating table with his new Muslim friends but finds a disturbing presence at the table.....the Jews and the ghost of what Europe did to them.

His mutterings of guilt ridden panic induced by the Jews who have survived all that Europe threw at them fill the news broadcasts. Europe rid itself of most of its Jews -- some of them escaped and built a country, and now Israel has a more stable economy than its former hosts. What an indignity, that those whom Europeans punished and persecuted for so long are still around. The Jews are an embarrassment.

For two thousand years, Europe threw out the Jews, or murdered them, or stole their property -- tried to crush their spirit -- and yet they came back even stronger.

Jews were supposed to be finished off in the ghettos, gas ovens, and slave labour prisons. That didn't work. OK, give them a state and let the Arabs, generously supplied by most of Europe's governments and corporations, finish them off.

I guess the work is in progress, facilitated and encouraged by our political elite.

The Jews are in the way of trade deals, an inconvenient little country. An inconvenient people. " million Muslims in Britain, 300,000 Jews...you do the maths. Especially add up all the Jewish bombs that have gone off to further their religious and political intentions.

Demonise them, their every action made to seem a war crime, their existence a conspiracy against humanity, freedom and democracy. The Jews run the media, the Jewish lobby controls the White House, the Jews start all the wars.

Then perhaps, people won't raise too much of a fuss when the Muslims move in and erase Israel and the 6 million Jews within it.

And with the BBC to write the history no one will ever know.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/07/europes_jewish_problem.html

John Holland

Scripture says a lot of things, Raymond, often about stoning people, righteous genocide and God knows what else.

Martin Paice

Anti-terrorist record???
So you support the EOKA scum who murdered their way through hundreds of British soldiers and both Greek and Turkish Cypriot civilians, then?

Louis Berk

Cameron conforms to the 'Perot Theorem', as in Ross Perot's famous statement about Bill Clinton when he was running against him for President in 1992: "I looked at his CV and I can't offer him a job".

Adrian

Turkey invaded Cyprus because Greek Cypriots deposed the government and tried to align the island with military dictators in Greece. There was a shooting war before the invasion between majority Greek and minority Turk communities in which civilians on both sides were murdered. Neighbour killed neighbour....a bit like the Balkans in the 90's. The UN troops there failed to keep the peace and the UK decided not to carry out it's mandate under the 1960 constitution to preserve the bi partisan state ( this was 1974, a year of weak government and two general elections). Having invaded, the Turkish NATO equipped army faced a rag tag mob of Greek looters and layabouts with WW2 weapons. They were able to take more land than they intended to because the Greek population of Famagusta simply ran away. All of them. The stalemate that exists today does so because in the immediate aftermath of the Greek coup, Britain, the US and UN troops sat on their hands and did nothing. Evacuation of tourists was all that we did. Inaction by the west in Cyprus, the Balkans and Rwanda led to untold misery. Turkey is the key to beginning to sort out the Middle East. It is more likely to happen with them in the EU than out.

Dixon

Roger...sounds like your zoo was on Craggy Island.

Cameron the catamite, and then hell sore shitzu!

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Well, in the words of the famous ditty: The things we do for love!!"

Perhaps Gaza, now, is indeed a "prison camp" and the Gazans, like their British supporters, are pining for their halcyon days under Egyptian rule...when employment was as full as the shops were stocked a plenty...and the jews were still in their box...Ah yes..those were the days...Gaza City in the moonlight, with Nasser's political poetry blaring out over the mosque tannoy systems..Ho hum...One day I wish upon a star, and wake up when the star is far.......zzzzzzzzzzz

Oflife

This is not a Cameron issue, it is the way the British are. As a 50/25/25 Brit (English, Lithuanian, Dutch) who has lived for 10 years in the US, I can testify that for all the grandstanding agains the Americans by the liberals here, they have principles, whilst the British are duplicitous and easily bought. And it doesn't matter which party the politicians belong to, this characteristic appears to be inherent in the gene pool.

The way Israel is being used as a political tool without any consideration for the effect this has on innocent Jews world-wide is deplorable.

Comprehensiveboy

I found Cameron quite personable and a good 'image' for Britain but I am so relieved I didn't vote for him. One can only hope he is lying. One of the oddities of this war against agressive Islam and the anti British elements here, apart from the lack of war propaganda against the enemy (yes, they are the ENEMY, you don't kill people who are not the enemy do you?)is the fact that we are expected or expect our leaders to tell the truth about what they are doing in this struggle as they go along. You don't tell the enemy what you are up to do you? As for the 'elements' I mention you can trust me - I used to be one, and they will cast around for anything anywhere which they see as a force against ... the 'man' or whatever. Allowing Turkey into Europe will have them slavering. They dream of neutralising the existing population to create whatever ill defined future they dream about in the fitful sleep they call their waking minds. I'll have to stop now! Humour and rationality will win this war!

Carl

Could anybody tell me what happened to the Turks, their homes and mosques that were on what is now the Greek side of Cyprus? I would be interested to know.

maxsceptic

I'm actually quite encouraged.

Cameron has a cunning plan to destroy the 'unity' of the EU by pushing for Turkey's admission.

With this highly contentious subject on the agenda, the EU will be paralysed and its onward march towards "ever closer union" will have been derailed.

(But, of course, it is possible that Cameron is indeed a dolt....)

Okey

Adrian: given that Turkey is already firmly on a radical Islamist trajectory, having it in the EU would be as useful to "sorting out" the Middle East as it would be to have the Taliban helping to "sort out" Afghanistan.
If Turkey were to be accepted into the EU, I suspect that the EU would go along with Turkey, rather than the opposite.
In any event, European sympathy for, acquiescence in and support of radical Islamist agendas has already become a reality, certainly with respect to "sorting out" the Middle East.

Dixon

Adrian has obviously been round all the Turkish government websites to tank up on the guff they pump out.

Oh do grow up and recognise a thug for a thug when you see one will you.

Dixon

...oh and while you were at it Adrian, did you discover the rather salient fact that Mein Kempf has been at the top of the best seller lists in Turkey for decades?

David

I wonder if the Queen will bring up the point of Turkish occupation of Commonwealth land when she next meets the foolish dumbass.

elixelx

Bedd Gelert
July 28th, 2010 9:53am
"Mel, Mel, Mel..Just because someone else is doing something bad, and people aren't protesting about Turkey, Rwanda, Zimbabwe etc. etc. is not a defence for Israel behaving badly..."

Bedd, Bedd, Bedd. Mel's is not ONLY a defence of Israel; it is ALSO and MOSTLY a potent indictment against the hooligans and barbarians who are so selectively "hurt" by Israel's treatment of the Gaza Strip, but see nothing wrong, or at least don't smash up supermarkets, or boycott and divest from countries whose human rights records would give Pol Pot's a run for the money.

Also, in a two-way dog fight, Bedd, which dog would you root for? Which would you wade in to protect? Which would you shoot? Seems you too have a mongrel in this fight; so protect it; but please, don't then criticise Mel for doing the same!

That, Beddy-boy, is called rank hypocrisy, and your post lauds it...nuff said!

john Norman

Turkey has made it abundantly, explicitly and emphatically clear that the dispossessed Greeks of Cyprus will never be allowed to reclaim their property in the North or to return to the North. They may be eligible for compensation. Cypriots individually, collectively should sue for the return of these properties and compensation. More British citizens who have purchased properties in the North should be sued in British courts and found liable for compensation to their Greek Cypriot owners. The estate agents who offer these properties should also be sued. It is past time to give Turkey a free pass on Cyprus which the finest flower (more a stink-weed, I think) of the Bullington Club is now doing.

blue_&_white_avenger

Greg - regarding Obama's enthusiasm for Turkey & his insistence that it should join the EU.
This is occasioned by his misguided belief in NATO & the fact that Turkey has somewhat pulled their weight there - as against many of the others who are are a waste of space. The US is desirous of cementing the SE flank of Europe of which Turkey holds the key.
And, until a year ago, it was led by a western-leaning government.
While Obama was basking in the general adulation over his election, the fact that he said all the things Europe likes & while the US continues to pay for Europe's defence, so that Europe can lavish all their treasure on welfare payments, the government of Turkey changed 180deg & is now aligned with Syria & Iran, mostly the axis of evil.
Therefore it's even more important for Obama to bring Turks into the EU, where, he thinks the EU will provide an ameliorating affect & bribe Turkey to remain within NATO & with "the good guys".
The fact that Germany has 20-30 years of immigration from Turkey to fill their job market & France more than enough of the problems caused by uncontrolled Moslem immigration means that there's no way the EU will agree to Obama's / his poodle's pleadings.
Which just makes Cameron look more of an idiot; the reason that he lost the election, which the Tories were bound to win was because many of the electorate, like me, heard him & saw him.
If it looks like a dog, smells like a dog and woofs like one, QED.

Imshin

Miranda Rose Smith: "A hush-puppy is something you eat. Don't insult food."

I thought a hush puppy was something you wore on your feet (or threw at people who spoke up for Israel).

EJT

Carl (& John Norman)

Mosques are respected in the South - in contrast to churches being trashed in the North.

Turkish property in the South. The system (I think) is that it is used and rent paid into a government holding account.

Ownership issues have gone to the European court. The last outcome was a ruling in favour of the Greeks, BUT then a ruling that it was up to (formally illegal) authorities in the North to implement !

The property issue resolution in the Annan plan was complex, but largely unfavourable to the Greeks.

seb

In the West, where multi-culturalism is touted as the 'way we must live', it is worth remembering that Istanbul, a multi-cultural city for nearly two millennia until the 1950s, is now without any significant Greek, Armenian or Jewish populations as the result of riots and pogroms that in a city like London or New York would have been regarded as medieval atrocities. The case for Turkish EU membership is, given this and the situations in Cyrpus and with the Kurdish situation, non-existent.

Andy Gill

".we want you to ...convince the doubters that the case for Turkey's membership of the EU was indisputable."

I think he'll find that the vast majority of the EU electorate do dispute it - and rightly so.

The European people won't tolerate open borders with an Islamic state. We've already seen enough damage done by Muslim immigration.

Rose

Spot on article and so many excellent posts. I well remember cringing when listening to Obama pushing for Turkish EU membership when addressing the Turkish Parliament.
Obama is now exploiting the BP and Lockerbie fiascoes by manipulating a very naive and inexperienced Cameron to further his Islamic ends.
How he must have laughed to himself in the Oval Office at this useful idiot!

TomTom

"The fact that Germany has 20-30 years of immigration from Turkey to fill their job market"

Just don't go to Cologne or visit its schools or swimming lessons in full jilbab. Don't go to Berlin where Arab gangs terrorise Turks in schools.

Don't visit unemployment statistics nor prison statistics, nor ask why police Federation in NRW asked for Turkish police to patrol problem areas of Nordhreinwestalen, Germany's biggest state.

Stuart Seacole Smith

Dixon 28/7 3.37: with a heavy heart, I have to agree with your sentiments on Cameron. He duped most of the UK, like Obama duped most of the US.

And... on another topic:

Hush Puppies: shoes I think. Like wot Ken Clarke likes.

Slush puppies: coloured crushed ice drinks that kids like.

Dixon

Comprehensive boy...theres something in what you say, but not very much. You could expect Churchill to lie about his intentions (my dad was part of Project Mulberry, which entailed as part of it one of the biggest deceptions of all time, misleading the Germans about the purpose of the construction activity entailed) but you never heard Churchill say that Hitler and his gang were misrepresenting the true NAZIs that were basically a peace loving, honourable creed!

Hence, I think you are extending way too much credit for guile to these idiots who rule us.

Dixon

I once bought some Hush Puppies. Probably the only footwear made in England I ever bought. They literally fell to pieces within a week...the upper of one coming completely away from the sole. I would never repeat that purchase. Ie, if I ever have to choose between something made in the UK and a foreign import, I would even pay a bit extra for the import. Although of course, British goods long ago so massively priced themselves out of contention that there are in fact very few.

Upon which basis, maybe Cameron should be likened to an Amstrad!

john Norman

EJT : thanks for the details. Bring up the subject with Tony Klug and you will find yourself dismissed, in going to bat for "the poor Greek Cypriots" as using them to blind the world to Israeli crimes. Well, no, it was an issue of political principle -universal political principle related to human rights. Mr Klug would have none of it. He revealed himself to be a completely unprincipled PC voice of the Left. Beware the Klug or Klugs (there are more of them) of this world.

John.

Ever since the Turks conquered Anatolia and finally Constantinople, they have been longing to take what lies west of them, namely Europe. Having taken the Balkans they then tried to advance into Austia and were last repulsed from the walls of Vienna in 1683. Now they are being offered Europe on a plate without a single soldier being put at risk. How they must be laughing at our pusillanimous and ignorant leader!

Tiberius

I'm sorry to hear about your Hush Puppies, Dixon.

Dixon

And another thing, when are the Turks going to apologise for taking approximately 3 million non-Muslim Europeans (mainly children to be raised as Muslims) into slavery over a period of 500 years? When is this even going to be mentioned alongside the constant whining about Britains part in the later version of slavery?

I couldnt give a monkeys whether they apologise or not, obviously its a rhetorical question, but one I would love to see brought up by a real British leader, if we had such a thing.

Mrs Mugabe

Dixon. I never took you for a Hush Puppy type of guy. Did you pick them up in a sale?

Graeme Thompson

@ GeoffM
July 28th, 2010 9:44am

GeoffM, it wasn't "Islamist monsters" who committed these atrocities, it was an avowedly secular Turkey.

Let's not detract from the excellent reasons there are to keep today's Islamist Turkey out of Europe.

sleeping dolls

Slightly OT, but this link was on Rod Liddle's blog, and I was rather upset by it. Knowing that most readers here are experts on Israel, I wonder if anyone could explain to me what is happening here?
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/07/a-town-is-razed-in-israel.html

Mark Allinson

This contemporary obsession in the West with finding fault only with our own culture, while worse faults in other cultures are entirely overlooked or ignored, points to a psychological origin.

To consider oneself to be the greatest sinner in the world is psychologically identical with a claim to be the greatest saint – the ego in both cases is proudly inflated.

Theodore Dalrymple writes of a “diploma of righteousness” currently pursued by Western intellectuals. And as we know, hubristic pride (even when inverted) always goeth before a fall. I put it in this little ditty:

All Ours

It’s all our fault, they say today,
All the fault of our Western way.
Racism, sexism, we invented it ¬–
We’ll wear hair-shirts till we’ve repented it.

All the strife around the world
Began the day our flags unfurled;
And now they say it’s getting hot –
The attack of the Western kilowatt!

It finally all comes down to we,
The plural form of me, me, me.
We did it all, we take the blame,
The fame the blame the blame the fame.

robins

To Sleeping Dolls:
The Beduin situation is very complicated.
In practice, a very large area of southern Israel has been taken over by Beduin in a way that any state would regard as illegal, but the beduin maintain their traditions justify (perhaps similar to the Gypsies in Europe).
Its very unusual for the state to take steps in this fashion, to the great frustration of Israelis living in the south, who often have significant problems arising from beduin settlements that develop around their towns

See
http://honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques
/new/Israel_Ethnically_Cleansing_Bedouin_Arabs.asp
and
http://www.mmi.gov.il/static/HanhalaPirsumim/Beduin_information.pdf

Ordnance

When Cameron said that Gaza was a "prison camp" he perhaps meant that the brutal, racist Hamsas government had turned it into a living hell for its inhabitants - in which case he is correct - or on the other hand I'im just dreaming.

Derek Pasquill

Great article about Cheedledum and Cheedletwee over at Jihad Watch:

http://tinyurl.com/2wk6sms

"So in the chanceries of France and Germany and Italy, in the banana-skin-lined corridors of power in the Pentagon and the State Department, and in Great Britain itself, those who know what's what will not exactly ignore him, but having now taken his measure, and taken as well the measure, or rather the remarkably similar measurements (just look at their identical suits, ties, shirts, expressions, minds) of his nearly identical twin, the apologist for all that is not Western, Mr. Clegg, Tweedledee to his Tweedledum (and this allows us to think of them both as the Tweedle Twins), we all learn to hold him at a distance and in contempt, and work around him, around both of the Tweedle Twins."

Like the advertising industry's favourite abbreviation for washing powder commercials - 2CK, this Brokeback Coalition has too many Cs.

John

The truth is that the Ottamans, without any justification whatsoever wrested the Byzantine Empire from the Greeks and replaced Greek with Turkish in the Anatolian heartland and Arabic everywhere else. Just as the Arabs before them attacked, sacked and occupied the North African part of the Latin and Greek speaking Roman Empire. The Turks have already advanced into the part of Greece adjoining the Bosphorus and the North of Cyprus and, seeing that no-one has done a single thing to stop them they are now set upon realizing their long nurtured dream of advancing into the rest of Europe. Do our leaders read no history at all? And if so how can be such dolts as not to learn any lessons from it?

EJT

Adrian,

For accuracy, it was not the Greek Cypriots who overthrew their government - or at least not the vast majority of them. Makarios had over 80% approval. EOKA-B was the creature of the mainland colonels.

Michael

What a negative,and one sided article.Corrupt people in the the world have ignored this problem for their own purposes for 50 years.
There are two sides to this problem.The historical fact that abuse of human rights,tyranny,ethnic cleansing,murder,confiscation of political and property rights was started against the Turkish Cypriots first.
It is time that past errors and actions were admitted by both sides(especially by the Greek side).They should concentrate on reaching a mutually fair settlement on a bi-communal,equal two region basis - the UK has 4 regions & manages to live this way.
A settlement by the end of the year should be simple if goodwill.honesty and acceptance of past deeds are applied in these negotiations.Prejudiced and self interested people should not be allowed to go back to their previous ways.

roger

To give Dave the Dhimmi a canine appellation is an insult to our four-legged friends. A more apt label would be something from the insect world or reptilian domain. Cockroach would be very appropriate but yet again I am loath to malign our crustacean friends. Gnat or flea maybe?

john Norman

There are at least 160.000 Anatolian farmers squatting on Greek-owned land in the North. Settlers. Illegaly squatting and settling. Property never to be returned to the Greek owners. Just what would constitute a fair settlement in your eyes, Michael?

achille

"Cameron puts Britain first" said British Patriot

I am not sure at all neither Great Britain nor Europe.
Looks like it's short term interests first like the businessmen in front of whom he was speaking.
Some people have no country,no family,no values,memory,legacy and loyalty/friendship but only interests....
Don't be fooled those so-called
short term interests could be very bad for UK on the long run and rather quickly.

If you are really a Patriot you should be concerned by the european islamization and the future of the "free world" and its founding values

michael

In his Brit enterprise push DC would do well to be wary of Turkey's commercial and political elite.....the uber slick Saville Row Sharia.

EJT

Michael.

Your second sentence has a lot of truth in it.

On the violence, who started what, when, is very debatable. For me, it is more informative to note the (several) forces that were driving it.

Comparisons with the UK political system are wrong - there is nothing approaching the strength of national level government (with the power that gives the majority) on the table.

Even with good will, no potential agreement would be in any sense simple.

And bluntly, a lot of actions, including right now, are in bad faith.

Derek BLADES

Robins, July 28th, wrote "Another Turkish crime Cameron ignored:It seems to be a little-known fact that Turkey, in addition to its responsibility for a genocidal-scale slaughter against Armenia in WWI, has imposed a total blockade against landlocked Armenia for nearly 20 years, reducing its GDP by 40% ..."

I am wary about introducing facts into this fantasy blog but here are the GDP real growth rates for Armenia taken from the Asian Development Bank's latest edition of that excellent publication "Key Indicators". In the four years from 2005 to 2008 - latest year available - Armenia's GDP grew by 14%, 13%,14% and 7%. Over that period countries of Western Europe rarely did better than 3% annual growth of GDP.

Some "little known" facts should stay that way.

Derek BLADES

Dear Ms Miranda Rose Smith, You tell us that "A hush-puppy is something you eat."

I thought it was a brand of rather comfortable and long-lasting shoes.

Why do you eat shoes?

Adam B.

Blades, I'm sure you will join with me in condemning Turkey's illegal occupation of northern Cyprus, the ethnic cleansing of 200,000 Greeks from Turkish occupied Cyprus, the desecration of all the churches, the routine Turkish bombing of Kurdish villages in northern Iraq which have killed hundreds (not that the media will tell you), and the Turkish military assistance to Syria, which is currently, as we speak, carrying out a genocide against its own Kurdish population.

Or is it that you don't care because you can't blame Israel?

Augustus

If Cameron thinks the case for Turkey's membership of the EU is so 'indisputable' he should study what is happening in a number of German towns where Turkish youths run amok. The problem is so bad that Die Welt
reports that the German Police federation says that it can no longer cope with the riots, and in the province of Nordrhein-
Westfalen it has asked Turkish police to keep law and order instead. Maybe they have a point
and it should be tried elswhere.
Outsource the problem to the countries who produce the criminals in the first place, and let them deal with those that refuse to integrate peacefully. I seem to remember a
survey conducted in Turkey about a year ago where people were asked about Turkey joining the EU. A full 40% said that they would migrate to other parts of the EU as soon as Turkey joined. On a national basis that would mean an extra 30 million Turks arriving in mainly North West Europe, and even if Germany took the brunt, you can bet a lot will want to come to Britain too. It could double our immigration figures at a stroke.

Lungfish

Is'nt something to do with the post imperialist malaise- suicidal headlong path to self loathing etc.
Although I would say that maybe Cameron was playing a game- love Islam in Turkey one day and tell the Pakistani's off for being a bunch of terrorists the next.

Dingles

Mrs Mugabe, they were atypical Hush Puppies, being black of Chelsea boot design, side elastic, and a premium product at the late Dingles of Clifton. To whom they were returned forthwith!

No, I am certainly not of the Ken Klark Hush Puppie persuasion.I was just giving them the benefit of the doubt on that occasion and they were found wanting.

Ian Hills

We paid off our debt of gratitude to America for helping us out in WW2 by the 1970's - with interest added, of course. So why should we act as agent for them, levering Turkey into the EU just because Turkey is an ally of America within Nato?

Trevor Padley

Israel Launches Air Strikes On Gaza Strip.

This is sky news headlines,in the next sentence,they go on to say,after a rocket shot in from the Palestinian territory exploded in an Israeli town.I am not Jewish Mel,and i am not very educated,and i am sorry that i am using an article that has nothing to do with the afore mentioned.But as usual when it comes to an article that sky don't want the general public debating,they don't allow comments.Anyway,that's another argument.But dont you think the headline should realistically be saying the opposite of there headline"A rocket shot in from the Palestinian territory exploded in an Israeli town",and in return Israel retaliated with air strikes back?I am sick to death of reading major media companies distorting news that they are obviously in league with,and getting away with twisting peoples minds.Once again,i am sorry for my poor grammar as i know the people on here are a lot more educated than me,but i couldnt think of a better place that i know might understand my frustration......A thick northener.

revolution

Do you think the Americans and especially the British with a military base on the island turned a blind eye to the Turkish takeover of part of Cyprus?

Derek BLADES

Adam B, has addressed the following enquiry to me: "Blades, I'm sure you will join with me in condemning Turkey's illegal occupation of northern Cyprus, the ethnic cleansing of 200,000 Greeks from Turkish occupied Cyprus, the desecration of all the churches,..."

This enquiry comes out of the blue as it has nothing to do with anything I have contributed to this discussion but, as Adam B clearly values my judgement on this and other matters, I am happy to reply. Notice that I do so in spite of his childish discourtesy in addressing me as "Blades". "Mr" or even "Derek" wouldn't hurt old chap.

To business: I condemn all acts by Turkey that are contrary to UN conventions and international law although I am not sure that your list of alleged Turkish transgressions is strictly accurate. At least two Catholic churches were functioning in Turkish-controlled Nicosia when I was there in 2006.

One point you may wish to consider is why Turkey invaded Cyprus. I am sure you will recall that it was when Nikos Sampson and leading Greek Cypriots resurrected "enosis” - the call for union of the island with Greece. Hugh Foot, the last British governor of the island, had negotiated an independence agreement for Cyprus on the condition that there would be no enosis. The island was to remain strictly independent - absorbed by neither Greece not Turkey. The Turkish government acted to protect the Turkish community when it appeared likely that the Greek Cypriot’s enosis drive would be supported by the Greek government in clear contravention of the independence terms.

The Turkish government's invasion was therefore understandable if not excusable. Unfortunately for little minds like yours, world events are rarely painted in black and white.

Derek BLADES

Miranda Rose-Smith asked " Dear Mr. Gelert: Just exactly how is Israel behaving badly? In my opinion, Israel is behaving astoundingly well."

How about:
- Burning and bombing civilians in the Gaza war;
- Likewise in the Lebanon war;
- Theft by settlers of Arab land in the occupied territories;
- Imprisonment of several hundred Palestinians after kangaroo-court trials;
- Collective punishment of the Gaza population;
- and so on.

These are evil acts, Miranda. Your moral compass is seriously disturbed if you regard that as "behaving astoundingly well"

Derek Pasquill

Thanks for the tip, Augustus, about outsourcing criminal justice to countries that produce the problem.

SO we should import Taleban to police Birmingham and Bradford? - this will work a treat I am sure, what with the beheadings, amputations and stonings - Friday entertainment for all the family.

Is it something in the water?

Is the West delirious already?

Tiberius

It is somewhat surprising that no piece on Cameron's decidedly ungushing remarks about Pakistan has been posted on here yet. I should have thought it would have been a natural follow up to this piece on his remarks about Turkey.

john Norman

Derek Blades provides one explanation of why Turkey -illegally - invaded Cyprus. Perhaps, he can now provide an equally rational explanation why Turkey is still occupying the northern part of Cyprus 36 years after the event. Illegally.

Adam B.

Blades, hardly out of the blue, when it is the topic of this thread. It may help if you read Melanie's article before contributing off topic comments.

Interesting how you go out of your way to excuse Turkey's actions - illegal occupation about which you shrill so loudly suddenly becomes "understandable" in Turkey's case. i also note you do not address the ethnic cleansing of 200,000 Greeks, the destruction of the Orthodox churches (different from Catholic churches, Blades) and the routine bombing of Kurdish villages in northern Iraq, and the assistance to Syria in destroying its own Kurds. Suddenly you appreciate "grey areas" - unless Israel is involved, of course.

"Understandable" - you say? In 1967, Israel was blockaded illegally by Egypt, the armies of 5 nations were gathering at her borders, with openly expressed promises to drive the Jews into the sea. Yet you obsessively castigate Israel for refusing to lay down and die before a genocidal enemy.

Such a display of double standards is your signature.

And do you still think Germany and Japan ended WW2 with their borders intact? That really exposed your lack of historical knowledge. But what can one expect from someone who read the Hamas charter, and in all seriopusness says there is nothing antisemitic in it?

TomTom

Turkey is occupying Christian Byzantium and has expropriated Christian churches to convert into mosques. Belarus is illegally occupying Polish towns as is Ukraine under the secret protocols of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Poland and Czechoslovakia illegally expelled 12 million German-speakers after 1945 of whom 2 million died. The USA gave Croatia the green light to purge millions of Serbs from Krajina and allowed Iranian flights to supply weapons to Bosnians.

Israel is to be a beacon to nations by being purer than all of them. Such high expectations from our media and political elites could be beneficial if applied universally

Derek BLADES

john Norman wrote "Derek Blades provides one explanation of why Turkey -illegally - invaded Cyprus. Perhaps, he can now provide an equally rational explanation why Turkey is still occupying the northern part of Cyprus 36 years after the event. Illegally."

Well, I suppose the Turkish government wants to make sure the Turkish community there will be properly protected after their soldiers leave.

Sounds reasonable to me - but perhaps you have a conspiracy theory to offer.

Adam B.

Blades, does that include the thousands of Turkish settlers brought into Cyprus illegally from Turkey after their invasion?

Transparent double standards.

Mrs Mugabe

"I am wary about introducing facts into this fantasy blog" Well, Derek BLADES, that rather begs the question as to why you keep trying. Very trying.....
Dingles: Thank you for that. I'd quite forgotten that Hush Puppies had graduated from Syd James to James Dean.

Bogdan from Australia

Tom, Tom, you are all wrong! It wasn't Poland that has expelled Germans after the WW2. It was a COMMUNISTS regime imposed by the Soviets that has (under the order by Stalin) expelled Germans.
Some ten million Poles (including my parents) have been forcibly moved from the Eastern parts of Poland to the areas taken from Germans.
Still, it cannot even be regarded as asymbolic compensation for the barbarism inflicted by Gerams on Poles.
Appart from that, it was the result of Poles' thirst for revenge (as justified as it was) but the result of the treason of Yalta in which Poles had no say.
The communist regime installed in Poland (its first "president" Bierut was a NKVD head of the Polish Section)
expelled those millions of Germans but also murdered 50 thousands Polish patriots after the WW2 has ended.

Dixon

Mrs Mugabe, obviously Dingles was me...the image of the complaisant English department store your query brought to mind so blotting out everything else for a moment that it seems it even displaced my name. I wonder if there exists anywhere still a place quite like that?

But the real reason for my coming back on the Hush Puppie theme is apropos your quoting the Bladdes as saying "I am wary about introducing facts into this fantasy blog". hadnt seen this because I dont read his posts...I recommend anyone with better things to do just to ignore them. But his remark which seem highly hilarious in view of my having noticed (in spite of myself) his earlier reference to Hush Pupppies as:
"...a brand of rather comfortable and long-lasting shoes..."
...Which was after my account of the new pair that fell apart, uppers from soles, within a week of purchase!

I guess he reads my comments as rarely as I read his.But quite clearly, as a matter of fact, his conception of "facts" is divorced from reality as experienced nby the rest of us: long lasting shoes, pfah!

Robins

Sorry to trouble Derek Blades about facts (clearly a weak point in his numerous posts here). Armenia does suffer from the Turkish blockade, even if its GDP has been improving from a very dire base level. Here is the comment from the World Bank
http://www.worldbank.org/html/prddr/trans/novdec96/doc9.htm
"if the trade blockade—imposed on Armenia by Azerbaijan and Turkey as a result of the war over Nagorno-Karabakh—were lifted, the country has every chance to move toward a sustained export-driven economic expansion."

Harold

TomTom
July 31st, 2010 11:08am
"Such high expectations from our media and political elites could be beneficial if applied universally"

But our governing elite and media do apply their idealism universally. The Americans' "counter-insurgency" techniques (torture and murder) perfected in Vietnam (the Phoenix Programme) have been rolled out across the globe, including Iraq, Afghanistan, and Palestine. And the media has resolutely looked the other way, even when the truth is published. And our ruling elite does expect Israel to play its part. And for decades it has, for example in Latin America. There is the odd whistleblower in the US and the UK. Is there anyone similar in Israel?

Carl

Adam B - what about the thousands of Jews from Eastern Europe being encouraged to move to Israel?

Transparent double standards.

Adam B.

No Carl, that doesn't really work, does it?

Of course you've missed the point. Israel is a country - Turkish occupied Cyprus isn't. And what's more, people like you and Harold and Blades who bang on day and night about Judea and Samaria couldn't care less about Turkish occupied (and ethnically cleansed of Greeks) Cyprus.

That's the transparent double standard.