No-win journalism

Alex Bensky

And there's a reason why only Israel is singled out for this, Melanie. I discovered it and announced it to the world a few years ago on Meryl Yourish's excellent website, www.yourish.com.

As I figure it, sometime in the 1920's the League of Nations passed a resolution that has since become a firm and inflexible rule the world over. I can't actually put my hand on the document but the rule logically must exist for the same reason that astronomers knew that planets orbited other stars even though until recently no one had ever seen one: The theory explains phenomena which are otherwise inexplicable.

Meryl calls it the Exception Clause but without false modesty I call it the Bensky Corollary to Absolutely Everything: Any statement, any pronouncement, any policy, made by anyone at any time, anywhere, contains the tacit proviso: "Except for Jews."

This is why, for example, the Telegraph or certainly The Guardian would be painstaking to place remarks by Ahmadinejad into careful context but with Peres wrenches his words out of context and highlights the ones that place him in a bad light.

It's also why, for example, trade unionists oppose Israel, which has a vigorous free labor movement, over the Arabs, who don't have any free labor movement at all. It's also why people who claim that they are supporters of gay rights oppose Israel and support the Arabs, whose views on homosexuality are both well-known and frequently lethal. It's not inconsistency, but their principles hold "except for Jews."

Okey

It appears that the journalists who distorted the thrust of Peres's comments actually confirmed the fabricated allegation which they ascribed to Peres.

Groovy Times

That is the nature of journalism these days isn't it? To grab the attention of potential customers. Presentation uber alles. I'm sure poor Shimon isn't the only one to be quoted out of context. In that sense the Telegraph could argue it is non-discriminatory, treating the Israeli president as it would all its subjects: To be moulded into a parochial, shallow, opinionated 'product' that is tailored to appeal to the prejudices and intellectual limitations of its readers.

Jonathan Stuart-Brown

Well I am glad to declare myself as a British philo-semite, even an English philo-semite. I am delighted to declare my 100% support for Israel and along with many other people in the UK, I pray for "the peace and prosperity of Jerusalem" (Psalm 122 verse 6). Now it may just be because of watching The Munich Olympics as a child or other lack September plane hijacks and realised that Israelis were the good guys. It may be deep religious conviction, growing among many UK based Christians, that God really meant "I will bless those who bless you AND curse those, who curse you" (Genesis 12 verse 3). I may just have enough sense of self-interest and British national interest to want the blessings, and to avoid the curses. Many people are polorising over Israel and Jerusalem -ironically just like dozens of Bible prophecies suggest they will - and I am glad to see very many are polorising in Israel's favour in Britain. I can well understand how President Shimon Peres can just pick up on those polorising the other way. Indeed Israel should remember The Evian Conference of July 1938 when Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and The Us President really failed Jews when it was about their life and death chance to escape Hitler. The British Government record is erratic but was disgraceful at the most crucial points of the last century. I pray that David Cameron proves to be pro-Israel in deed, especially if Israel is attacked on his watch by six neighbours, as very many expect. If he nobly stands with Israel, God will bless him and this nation. If we stand with Israel when it counts, President Peres will overlook a few hurtful comments by British anti-semites. If we do not stand with Israel, no amount of kind words and sincere commiserations from philo-semites will do much good...nor be enough to avoid God's Wrath.

Neil Turner

I'm not sure I agree with your analysis Melanie.

I sincerely believe that taken as a whole, the Government, the opposition, the mainstream media (TV, UK newspapers and their websites), and our universities are fundamentally anti-Israel and pro-Muslim

The dramatic rise in attacks on Jewish people, and the security measures that Jewish schools and Synagogues have to take, is clear evidence that this anti-Israeli feeling is translated into anti-semitism

I am appalled at Cameron's liberal-Conservatism. Will the real Conservative Party please stand up ?

Barry Larking

The contribution by Jews (observant or not) to life in this country has been huge. That is the position I start from.

I am in political terms neither pro-Israeli nor anti-Palentinian. It has been as clear as a pike staff however that since 1979 what has animated the whole Near and Middle East is a wave of neo-Islamism from Iran. This current generation of the left (with which I am in 'limited' communion) has bonkersly decided 'Palestine good. Israel bad' without thinking through the problems nor having much of an historical grasp.

Here's an idea – pretty much 'blue skies' thinking: Stop attacking Israel.

Augustus

It is obvious why Britain has changed since the 1940s, '50s,
and '60s, and become more anti-Semitic. It is the growing Islamization of Britain. Thirty years ago there were about 82,000 Muslims in the UK, the present number has swelled to 2.5 million. The very country where Winston Churchill so eloquently and forcefully rallied the British people to defeat the Nazi threat is now once again under siege from a new tyranny. And not just in Britain, but all over Europe, cities now have enormous concentrations of Islamic immigrants, with all that entails: Enforced Sharia law, the destruction of women's rights, Burqas, headscarves, polygamy, genital mutilations, honour killings, women having to go to seperate swimming sessions, women not getting a handshake, and perhaps worst of all; cities living under Apartheid with Jews leaving en masse. But British politicians today have conveniently forgotten about Winston Churchill, they have given up, they have given in to the curse of Muslim appeasement.

Mycroft

I have never heard this supposed English saying that an anti-Semite is 'someone who hates the Jews more than is necessary' (which I think would be regarded as absurd and offensive in most circles in this country); I had a look around around on the internet and found that is something that 'Joseph Eötvösz, a Hungarian nobleman, [used to] say in the 1920's'!

Y, GAL

If you need more perspective, I recommend to read the article named: "Demonising Israel is bad for Palestinians" by Mudar Zahran, Jordanian Palestinian. At:
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=183252#
It is amazing how the western media has ignored the awful treatment of Palestinians by their arab "Brothers".

Dixon

Yeah yeah yeah, Peres was traduced....BUT the English ARE anti-semitic. Look, Ive been on the receiving end of it all my adult life, and Im not even Jewish! So entrenched in British life is the Der Sturmer stereotype of "Das Jude" that if you happen to resemble the charicature (which I do, never having been able to afford the corrective surgery) you never stop getting it left right and cemtre: being referred to as "the Jewish boy" by your barber or someone singing "If I were a rich man" as you go past in the street, being lectured by some jerk on the significance of my having been circumcised (which I havent), you name it, any crass racialist idiocy, more recently being spat at by men of Eastern appearance. So this IS a country of anti-semites, why split hairs over it?

Merlyn

Have to agree with Neil on this.
Antisemitism is alive, well,and thriving, dressed up 'human rights' clothes.
Personally, I'm glad to see this out in the open.

Mark

Peres started talking about anti-Israel feeling but was prompted into talking about anti-semitism. He was at liberty to make the distinction between the two but he didn't. He not only accuses the English of anti-semitism but attributes a saying to the English that I've never heard before, did he just make it up? It's a pretty nasty dig and I don't see anything wrong in the Telegraph reporting his opinions.

james

"Dixon
Look, Ive been on the receiving end of it all my adult life, "

Dont think you actually live i the UK. Most people in the UK would struggle to identify a Jew unless they came from that part of the world originally. We are not obsessed with Jews or Israel. Yawn!!

Ros

Since the new owners have taken over at the Telegraph, it has most definitely taken on a more ambivalent attitude towards Israel where once it had a more balanced stance. So often reports are slanted. The most recent being that of the flotilla incident. I think that Peres is right here and that the Telegraph is being disengenous but for what purpose?

Stephen Rothbart

The Telegraph also recently ran an article about how Jews 'hate' non Jews, but that no one dares talk about it. It was an article written more in sorrow than in anger, but it highlighted a couple of instances written by the author, unproven of course, and made them into a thesis.

Of course there are Jews who dislike the 'goyim' as they would refer to them, but they don't usually kill them or attack them. The violence towards Jews is however well documented.

Then the story of how Jews are arguing over whether a Holocaust survivor is actually Jewish appears in another paper.

These are isolated stories appearing in two right wing papers, and are not meant to paint Jews in a good light.

Do we start to see a trend here?

Gentle prodding about how Jews are not such nice people. Softening up of the population.

Paranoid? Maybe. But Jews never lived untroubled for long in the Diaspora. Usually 70 years depending on the economic cycle at the time, accoridng to the author Sir Martin Gilbert.

Well its about 70 years since the Holocaust and the economy is in the sewer.

Time for another round of scapegoating perhaps.

AY

It's funny how the remark on "Muslim voters" passes without any attempt of addressing.

So if there is "fury", why not to prove opposite, - that UK Muslim voters aren't anti-Israeli, or don't have influence, or both, whatever applies.

Instead, the emphasis is just shifted to the "British fury" itself. The 86-years old Israeli President caused British fury, that's it. Nuff said.

Gábor Fränkl

Peres' every word IS emeth (true) or GOLDEN! This is only natural. For once in his lifetime he defended his country and nation against the unadultarated, unreconstructed and unabashed anti-Semitic aggressor! Good on ya Simon! (England, this almost broke, low-GDP tinpot country - compared to Germany, France (or even its share of world trade compared to Italy 2,8 % to 3,2 %) - has finally got what it DESERVED. Imhp it got away too lightly.) I wonder if my comment will be censored or not.
In my own name,
Fränkl Gábor
Budapest, Hungary
(Central-Europe)

TomTom

The Telegraph has done itself no favours. It is impossible to refute what Peres has said because of the way it has been reported. Since 1973 the fact that oil has lubricated Islam has allowed politicians to be bought with hard or soft dollars, but bought nevertheless.

The Arabs are masters at buying politicians and noone doubts favours are being sold. Saudi Arabia is funding mosques throughout Europe and seems to own Bradford. Saudi Arabia behaves as an enemy but is protected because of oil and bribes.

How many PR firms and Law Firms are bagmen for Saudi money. We know how Blair and BP fell for Libyan money just as Jimmy Carter's brother did.

We know the King Fahd School in Bonn spreads hatred against Jews and Christians, but we know every German politician turned up to its opening.

Corruption goes a long way to explain why Eurabia is still being constructed

alan stoddart

Telegraph does exactly as Peres complained about. Telegraph has gone downhill rapidly in last few years. Whilst the Times took on a tabloid format the Telegraph retained its broadsheet style only to fill the content with left wing trash....anti Israel and anti-Afghan war.

AbeBird

The difference is that philosemitism in England is history and Anti-Semitism is politics in doing. Formally England and mainly the foreign office always played Anti-Jewish policy since Britain occupied Palestine in 1917. Much of the now various conflicts in the ME, and of course in Palestine too, is because Britain invented peoples and states and painted their borders just according to its national strategic policy laid on controlling the oil, assured their access through Suez canal and holding military posts on the other side of Iron Curtain. The Jewish Yeshuv and Israel always paid the price by hurting its own national rights and security. Only in one case Britain supported Israel and it was when Egypt betrayed them and nationalized Suez Canal. Just Hypocrisy.

Gary

It's possibly a misquote of a quote in a war time essay by George Orwell - "antisemitism is hatred of Jews more than is normal."

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Shimon Peres is right, but anti-Semitism is not only limited in Britain but also Sweden look what is happening in Malmo, Sweden. It is all about the growing muslim population in Europe, this makes me sad the leftist governments in Europe are relax about this, they sit and watch they are not being clever I think today is anti-semitic tomorrow could be anti-Christian or anti-Atheist leftist who knows?

Wolf Terner

For once in his life Peres may have just gotten things right!

Which European country was the first to expel its Jews? Gee, the answer is England!

Which country forbade the return of Jews for some 400 years on pain of death? Gee, England, again!

Which country forbade Jews from serving in parliament, even longer than other non church of England people. England, again.

Which country used Jews to help fight against the Turks in WWI and then reneged on its promise to establish a Jewish homeland in Plaestine? Wow, England again!

Which country misgoverned the Palestine mandate of the League of Nations and gave the majority of madate lands to the Arabs? Not again, England!

Which country kept the hagannah from reaching a doctor's convoy on its way to Mount Scopus that led to the slaughter of 70 doctors and nurses? Don't tell me: England, right?

Which country sent pilots to fly Egyptian ifghter planes against the newly established State of Israel? Oh, no, England.

Which country was complicit in the deaths of tens of thousands of Jews due to the issuing of the infamous White Paper in 1939? Yes, England.

Which country left the madate lands while turning over its fortified compounds to the Arabs
in the hopes they would be able to kill all the Jews and toss them into the sea? We know that answer.

What country took Jewish children, rescued from the oncoming holocaust and then saw to their overwhelming conversions to christianity? England.

What country saved Jews only to intern them in concentration camps during WWII as aliens and again in Cyprus after the war? Hmm.

What country sent Jews back to Germany after the ship Exodus was fired on, many killed and wounded? Hmm, again.

What country needed the Jews to help them capture and reclaim the Suez Canal? Guess!

I'm getting tired of typing questions.

Steve Klein

Melanie, take some advise from former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. She warned an increasingly apprehensive President G. H. W. Bush in the lead up to the Gulf War: "This was no time to go wobbly!"

phil

Of course some Brits are anti-semitic and many are not !! Some are anti MAN U and some love them -this discussion is rather silly in my view -we will never change those that hate us and personally I do not give a damn -people that hate, are non people with serious problems of their own ,so why dignify their attitude by discussion -Shimon Peres was taken out of context and has been used by those that wish to demean both him and us -Let them stew ,they will never be there to help us if we should need them ,and of course they never have .I prefer to dwell amongst those like JS Brown(above) and the many others here with more balanced views who I hope see us as normal human beings, prone to good and bad ,just like everyone else.

William Boyd

You're right I think in your analysis. Bottom line is that Peres didn't say the British were anti-semitic and the Telegraph writers were careless and indeed it was shoddy journalism, your pentulimate also quite right I think.

But 'several million Muslim voters'?

Well that would be more than a couple of million wouldn't it?

However the CIA World Factbook, that accepted arbiter of things, um, factual, puts our population at 61,284,806 (July 2010 estimate), suggests around two thirds of it is of voting age and 2.7% of it is Muslim so I make that about 61,000,000 *0.67 * 0.027 = about 1.1 millions Muslim voters which is pretty well the figure I would offer off the top of my head if put to it. By contrast the Wiki (that other fount of all things veracious) quotes around a quarter of a million (0.25 million) Jews in Britain based on the 2001 census but I don't how to judge how many of these are voters.

victoria williams

Peres' comments clearly say that the English are anti-semitic. It hardly matters where in the interview he says it, as evidently it is his view. So, you are incorrect to say the Telegraph has overstated his comments. Perhaps it is an example of over sensitivity and natural suspicion that in this case can only reinforce the message.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

I have noticed that the worst anti-Semites are so-called Humanists. Whenever a new Christian school is planned, these Humanists rise up, objecting to public money being spent on what they claim is "segregated schooling". If, however, a Moslem school or community building is considered, there is either silence from these Humanists or positive approval. If one dares to object, they immediately cry, "Racists"! The Christian community in the UK unfortunately appears to be shrinking, and is becoming almost an ethnic minority, The wearing of crosses is disapproved in many occupations, yet nobody dares criticise or forbid a burkah. Personally I have only met with prejudice from so-called Humanists and ironically, left-wing Jews. The worst enemies of British Jews are the self-hating Gerald Kauffmans and the oh so phlegmatic David Millibands. Shades of the 1930s Weimar when the 'emancipated' Jews were more German than the Germans. Antisemitism is alive and thriving, as is disinterest and disdain of Christianity. NuLabour's thirteen years have contributed to the widespread destruction of decent Christian values and moral ethos, and allowed fanatical neo-Moslem lifestyles to dominate the once rational British landscape. For this too, the anti-Semite finds grounds for Jewish involvement!

Oflife

As a general comment, (and I write as half of one), when are Jews going to stop engaging in business that may appear to some as degrading or unethical and therefore going to incur some hatred, even if the majority (of Jews) do not engage in such behaviour? For example, the Jewish gentleman who is taking over Channel 5 (UK) is going to flood it with degrading celebrity tosh (worse than any terrorist threat in my view because of the horrible effects such programming has on the mental and physical health of the viewers), and several wealthy Jews often hold embarrassingly lavish public parties and Bar Mitzvahs for their children. Why not a little more discretion and awareness of how we may be perceived by outsiders? Why can't we be a little more Christian, if you know what I mean?

(I bet this one is going to draw the ire of a few, but it has to be said, else we're doomed.)

mairT

Peres is correct, not only in England but also in the oh so correct liberal sector of Scotland. In my opinion it has been around for eons but the freedom of speech law has brought it to the surface. I was called a murderer by a pro-palestinian Scot, who not satisfied with shouting at me in an aggresive manner , decided that a megaphone was the best option and informed the entire busy High St that I was a "Jew Lover" and a murderer. The afore noted is all down to me simply saying, "sorry mate, I do not support Palestine". The truth of the matter is that yes, I am a "Jew Lover", I love him to bits and he is my husband.

Noah Aaron Bashi

England=Yawn

Bob Simpson

Fränkl Gábor
Budapest, Hungary
(Central-Europe)

Hungary is in EASTERN EUROPE not central Europe as you weirdly claim. .

Dixon

"james
August 1st, 2010 4:22pm
"Dont think you actually live in the UK. Most people in the UK would struggle to identify a Jew unless they came from that part of the world originally. We are not obsessed with Jews or Israel. Yawn!!"

Well, you are simply wrong. Ive lived in England all my life apart from an episode in Australia. The fact that you can utter such complacent wind (of which a yawn is the utmost expression of camplacency) merely indicates that you havent experienced it, but I have!

The examples I gave are real. You fail to note that I said I am not Jewish before citing as relevant the inability of "most people in the UK" to distinguish a Jew from a gentile. The obvious irrelevance of which, given my gentile status, is further found in that these people BELIEVE they can tell, even when attributing the status of, as they put it, "yid" to those like me who are not Jewish but fit their daft racial stereotypes.

Its all very well for you to express complacency with a "yawn" but I suggest you wouldnt feel so relaxed about it if you had been on the receiving end for the past several decades. I have. I am therefore entitled to be angry about it. Moreover not only am I thereby inclined by circumstance to empathise with the Jewish side in any debate, but I am in a position to point out the ignorance and shallowness embodied in your response, itself deeply expressive of similar pre-suppositions and assumptions as those that I experience, to whit thinking you or anyone can tell whether an Englishman is or is not Jewish at a glance (barring the anatomically obvious from view). In effect, you are exactly kin to the very same obnoxious brick-heads Ive been getting this racist dump off of all these years!

AY

mairT - yes, not the hate of offenders but love and decency and elegance like Yours are things making this country what it is; and worth defending. Thanks for the reminder.

Benny Morris

Melanie,
I hope people see this. You got it right.
Benny

Al Ramy

Anyone who remembers the British and the French, who in 1956 became Israel's 2 Amigos, cannot ignore the fact that once the two "Has been" powers, imploded from the map, they ditched Israel and their resident Jews have been living through endless acts of targeted harassment. The mugged "Socialist" Peres, forgot to remind the historian how Premier D'Israeli was called to take his donkey and hike back to Jerusalem. Jews have been massacred, exiled, banned, robbed and culturally ridiculed over many centuries. Some of Britians best literature was written as a put down on the Jews, by no less than William Shakespeare. Jewish contributions to British war efforts, science or technology are seldom mentioned, criticism is plenty. The most rapacious voices come from British Jews ashamed of their roots. A battery of writers, politicians and "newsmen" is on stand by to add to the damage. Peres was "diplomatic" in his comments, because if he got into the details, Britain would look much worse. It was high time to tell the truth. After all P.M Cameron ran on this mantra.

Trumpeldor

Bob Simpson
August 1st, 2010 8:53pm
Fränkl Gábor
Budapest, Hungary
(Central-Europe)

Hungary is in EASTERN EUROPE not central Europe as you weirdly claim. .

I disagree, Hungary is in Central Europe like Austria .
We tend to put it eastwards because it was part of the former communist eastern block

Mr Melrose

Back to the old problem here.

James states
Don't think you actually live i the UK. Most people in the UK would struggle to identify a Jew unless they came from that part of the world originally. We are not obsessed with Jews or Israel. Yawn!!

Very true but Dixon is straight back with

In effect, you are exactly kin to the very same obnoxious brick-heads Ive been getting this racist dump off of all these years!

A bit thick, in every sense, for the lovely 'poison their lands' Dixon to play the 'victim of racism' card.

Point is most English don't go around thinking about how much they hate Jews on a daily basis. I never hear (ever) the subject mentioned.

What does get attention is when Israel (and that's the government-military, not the people or the race) decide to board a peace flotilla in international waters, or accidentally run over women in a bulldozer, or use white phosphorous against civilians (BTW how's the vote on banning cluster bombs getting along?)

Also, in my experience the English have an aversion to the far right, religious extremists and peddlers of theories of racial superiority.

Read this blog and we are all like Hitlers really nasty little brother.

And in any case, any nation who produced Fawlty Towers, Basil Brush and the Chicken Balti pie cant be too bad can they?

PS Moderator The rambling discourse on what to do with 'The Browns' was a disgrace - Why was it not removed?

Suffolkbor

Frankl Gabor :

Sixty per cent of the most important technological inventions came from Britain according to a study by a Japanese government department some years ago.

If Britain is a tin pot country as you rudely proclaim then what does that make Hungary ?

What is Hungarys GDP?

The only things that spring to mind on the very rare occasions that Hungary ever enters my mind are Paprika and Goulash .

phil

Oflife
August 1st, 2010 8:03pm Sorry but you will not receive ire from me ,just sadness that you feel so embarrassed about your identity ,does it really matter that some Jews are crooks or big spenders ,we cannot have a perfect set of people ,just normal ones who do both good and bad like everyone else .Do you think we need to hide or even that we would be any better off by shrinking from everyday events ? -------------
The answer dear poster lies 80 years ago and if I may say so you need to think about it .What you will find is that there are people like Dixon and Margaret M J ,,balanced individuals who will treat you as they find you and sadly there are those who shall remain nameless but who contribute here ,who will despise you no matter what you do or say .Stand tall and be proud of your heritage ,share the best of it with others ,defend yourself when necessary ,you know ,just like the best of Brits who I am sure make up the vast majority .

phil

Mr Melrose
August 2nd, 2010 9:44am -You may get the chance to read what I sent to offlife ,but I do notice that your name jumps from time to time onto my screen.I have yet to see anything positive about either Jews or Israel. May I ask if you make a habit of complaining to the newspapers in Burma ,Zimbabwe ,Sudan ,Iran to name but a few? Do you think it unfair for many of us to wonder what your purpose is ? --------
-Maybe you can tell me if I could join any clubs you belong too, or become a partner in your business -I will be impressed if the answer is yes ,but let me assure you if it was the other way round the answer would be yes ,as in fact it has always been .

Dixon

Mr Melrose "A bit thick" ...is that your conception of an argument?
A "bit thick" is about it...care to to try to pont out any actual inconsistancy in my statements?

I doubt it: "a bit thick".

Dixon

As an addendum to Al Ramy's reference to Shakspeare I would suggest that the anti-Semitic pulse of the English is indicated by the immense popularity in its timje of George Du Mauriers "Trilby"...the backbone of which is a sustained expression of loathing toward "Jewishness" embodied in the character of Svengali.

Dixon

"Mr Melrose
August 2nd, 2010 9:44am
Back to the old problem here.

James states
Don't think you actually live i the UK. Most people in the UK would struggle to identify a Jew unless they came from that part of the world originally. We are not obsessed with Jews or Israel. Yawn!!

Very true but Dixon is straight back with..."

Very wrong, and your ignorance of the factsw are already indicated on the basis of what I said previously, to whit:

"Ive lived in England all my life apart from an episode in Australia. The fact that you can utter such complacent wind (of which a yawn is the utmost expression of camplacency) merely indicates that you havent experienced it, but I have!

The examples I gave are real. You fail to note that I said I am not Jewish before citing as relevant the inability of "most people in the UK" to distinguish a Jew from a gentile. The obvious irrelevance of which, given my gentile status, is further found in that these people BELIEVE they can tell, even when attributing the status of, as they put it, "yid" to those like me who are not Jewish but fit their daft racial stereotypes.

Its all very well for you to express complacency with a "yawn" but I suggest you wouldnt feel so relaxed about it if you had been on the receiving end for the past several decades. I have. I am therefore entitled to be angry about it. Moreover not only am I thereby inclined by circumstance to empathise with the Jewish side in any debate, but I am in a position to point out the ignorance and shallowness embodied in your response, itself deeply expressive of similar pre-suppositions and assumptions as those that I experience, to whit thinking you or anyone can tell whether an Englishman is or is not Jewish at a glance (barring the anatomically obvious from view). In effect, you are exactly kin to the very same obnoxious brick-heads Ive been getting this racist dump off of all these years"

Alex Bensky

Stephen Rothbart: I don't know about Gilbert's "seventy years" theory but there is one western country, a rather large one, where Jews have been part of general life for well over seventy years. In that country while there is anti-Semitism it is not a major problem generally, neither major political party either uses or condones anti-Semitism, and jews generally and genuinely feel that the society is open to them pretty much in all respects. Nor is there any indication that this will cease in the future.

You can guess which country it is and it's one of the many, many reasons why I object to President Obama's disavowal of the concept of American exceptionalism.

Dixon

Mr Melrose: "Also, in my experience the English have an aversion to the far right,..."

Again, obviously has lead a very clostered existence...in effect, no "experience" of real English people to speak of. Come down off Mt Olympus and you will find most working class English people, including Labour voters, are of the far right.

They oppopsed Hitler because he was their enemy, not because he had policies they very much disagreed with.

This is all a matter of fact that can be established by visiting ant pub in a UK inner city. Not though by loitering in a wine-bar up North London way I suppose.

D. Roberts

As a British Christian I humbly submit that Shimon Peres is absolutely correct with reference to his comments about anti-Semitism in our nation. The rising flood of anti-Semitism under the pseudo guide of 'legitimate' criticism of Israel is raging unabated throughout the Western world, not least in this country.

There has been indignation on the part of many, however hostile to the Jews, at being painted with the anti-Semitic 'brush'. Hitler gave anti-Semitism a bad name and there is widespread reluctance on the part of even the most severe critics of the Jews to accept this label.

Criticism of Israel, like that of any other nation, is quite normal as long as it is comparative, contextual, and fair. However, when the Jewish nation is the only party criticized for faults, often obsessively, that are far worse among other peoples, then such criticism crosses the line from being acceptable to being blatantly anti-Semitic.

Although often cloaked in the more socially acceptable political/humanitarian euphemisms of anti-Israelism or anti-Zionism, it doesn't much effort on the part of a honest individual to see the basic hatred which underlies such comments.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Years ago as a graduate who made a study of Shakespeare and the Elizabethan poets, I found that the Bard had a very liberal attitude towards both Jews and Blacks. His villain Shylock was often more sinned against than sinning, and Othello as the victim of racially inspired jealousy was in a similar boat. Shakespeare was a man of his age in that he caused Jessica to convert, but I believe that he showed scorn for those who believed that Jews were lesser humans. For blatant, undisguised anti-Semitism listen to some of the so-called stand-up comics at the Edinburgh Festival.

Anthony Thompson

Thank you, Melanie, for this corrective piece.

But you should not let Shimon Peres off the hook. He did clearly intimate that the English are anti-semitic. Certainly, as a gentile, I was shocked and upset by Mr Peres' comment that "There is in England a saying that an anti-Semite is someone who hates the Jews more than is necessary."

In my 60 years I've never heard the saying and I can't think of anyone I know who would think of using it. It just doesn't represent any truth about our attitude towards the Jews. At the risk of sounding insufferably patronising, I don't think most British people are sufficiently interested in Jews to hate them. For the most part Brits don't do hatred just as, I hear you retorting, we don't do love.

But we do support an underdog and Israel, notwithstanding all its justified (and unjustified) paranoia, is no underdog.

Ariely

The hell with moral values - UK is looking once again for commercial benefits

1: On the reception of the Lockerbie bomber in Libya, Kaddafi son words read by a mouth movement expert were that
HIS FREEDOM WAS ON THE ECONAMICAL NEGOTIATIONS WITH UK

2: Ms Cameron and his ambassador are playing the same type of UK policy once again

What are the secret benefits Ms Cameron is hoping from Islamists?

3;Few examples of pro Arab UK policy
UK deported holocaust refugees from Nazi camps to Cyprus camps
The UK police stations in Palestine have been handover to Arabs
The top commander of the Jordan army while attacking the nesting Israel was British

James Hodson (I hate ManU)

Hungary's position. If you take the Urals as being the eastern boundary of Europe then Hungary is certainly somewhere near the centre.

James Hodson

@victoria williams: "Peres' comments clearly say that the English are anti-Semitic"

Not quite. To quote selectively from the Tablet article:
Benny Morris: "Maybe it is anti-Semitism?"

Shimon Peres: "Yes, there is also anti-Semitism."

My inference is that Peres was saying that some in England are anti-Semitic, but not all.

However, I do think that many take a default anti-Israel position. I don't.

Okey

Peres's comments about the role of antipathy towards Jews contributing to the shaping of English policy towards Israel do not need defending.
Some English policymakers and some English intellectuals and other members of England's "elites", have quite blatantly and explicitly confirmed the validity of Peres's comments. Peres was stating the obvious.

If Israel were to commit suicide, I can just see the headlines in British newspapers: "Cowardly Jews Go Under," " David Humbles Goliath," Arrogant Israel Bites the Dust," Palestinians Triumph," "Victory for Justice and Humanity," "Perish Judah,"etc etc ad nauseam.

David SI

D. Roberts (August 2nd, 2010 2:07pm) Agreed. Well said!

Gábor Fränkl

Re: Bob Simpson
It's actually not so clear-cut as you would have us believe. It's quite a debate open to interpretations. If one includes parts of Russia up until the Ural - on strict geographic terms, then it may even be "Western". But, seriously, as Austria is often boxed into Central-E, Hungary could be Central-Eastern E.

Mr Melrose

DIXON

Re the British (English) being far right wing.. Not so .. There are some of course (quite a few on here) but support for the far right only rises when exploited by Right Wing parties in times of stress.

But then most people come to their senses ..see the BNP's results in the last election.

As for the 'rising tide of anti semitism' (see below) I seem to have managed to avoid this despite living in a lot of places, north and south, rich and poor, village and city. (although not Mt Olympus (not on the list) or north London (Cant afford it)

In none of these have I herd or seen anti Jewish remarks, conversation etc. I'm sure it does happen, but on a relatively small scale. It is not a 'flood' and it has nothing to do with criticism of an elected government or their military.

PS From my experience if you were talking about the French , then you would have a point. The locals here don't like the French and are not shy of saying so.

PPS I have also managed to avoid living in a place where my local Council has banned the Cross of St George, or Christmas, or Nativity plays etc, so I must just be very lucky.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

In the papers today was a horrific case. A 14-year old girl in Manchester was used as a prostitute by men who plied her with alcohol and drugs, then passed her around as "meat". Nine men, most named Mohammed, but also Achmud, and other Muslim names. Attention all British Anti-Semites: If your want to vent your hate on Semites, don't go for the Cohens, they are not covering up their women in medieval robes whilst exposing your daughters and sisters to the world of prostitution. You are hitting on the wrong Semites. This is just one case in many of Muslim males exploiting the freedom of Great Britain.

Dixon

Mr Melrose...you are clearly fond of misquoting people, quoting them out of context, attributing views to people they never expressed.

For starters, where the heck do you get all these quotes about "rising tide of anti-semitism", floods and deluges of it, etc? Not from anything I wrote. Then you say :

"In none of these have I herd [sic]or seen anti Jewish remarks, conversation etc. I'm sure it does happen, but on a relatively small scale. It is not a 'flood' and it has nothing to do with criticism of an elected government or their military."

So, thereby you acknowledge everything I actually said, but throw in a gratuitous invention ( a "flood", which I never said ).

Meanwhile your assertion that:
"Re the British (English) being far right wing.. Not so .. There are some of course (quite a few on here) but support for the far right only rises when exploited by Right Wing parties in times of stress. "

...simply warrants a repeat of my earlier observation that, in a phrase "you dont get out much do you", not to be taken literally, but in reference to your obvious callowness and lack of a common community experience.

As for:
"...But then most people come to their senses ..see the BNP's results in the last election...."

...seems to contradict your contention that the English are all a bunch of luvvy-dovey lefties, after all, the BNP received a million votes did they not?

I have known a great many people who would never vote for the BNP, as its not in their interest to do so, being considered a "wasted" vote (as so often stated apropos the Liberals). Such people would instead tend to vote Labour, which they perceive as in their own interest, whilst all the same holding and liberally expressing views that no BNP member would admit to in public. As long time readers here may remember, one of my five brothers was in the Metropolitan police, and the views he would express in private were specifically and precisely an endorsement of NAZIsm. Just one man you say, but by all accounts his colleagues shared his views.

Go into any working class English environment where people feel they are free to talk unfettered by officialdom or loosened by alcohol and you will hear language, terminology, attitudes, that it is evident would make you blanche, but which, however, I have grown up and lived my life amidst. Admittedly, mostly directed at black people. But racism by default, as are the English as a tribe, nonetheless. Your repetitious assertion "it aint so" merely makes you look ridiculously inexperienced and naiive.

But this is all beside the point...you came on here earlier to totally traduce my previous comments by some creative misquoting and then accused me of being "a bit thick" because I am happy to bomb enemies in a far away land to oblivion ( or as you put it, again misquoting me "poison their lands" ) but aint happy to have morons treating me abusively because I fit their dumb stereotype of being "Jewish". But what that train of argument amounts to is an equation between geography and "race". If I am happy to bomb everybody in Afghanistan that applies to anyone there of any racial or ethnic identity who I would regard as an enemy. If my barber says to the next customer "I'll be with you when Ive done this Jewish boy", when in fact I am not Jewish and his attribution obliquely to me of the offensive label "Jewboy" is evidence that he views people through racial stereotypes. That the English do this is the contention here being debated, not whether Dixon lkes it or not (which I dont) but whether it occurs.

For you, Mr Melrose, to conflate geography and racial-stereotyping in this way whilst missing the point entirely, now that really is "a bit thick".

hadrian

I have just read a copy of The Sun for the first time in years and if this drivel, trash and filth, masquerading as 'news' is the daily diet of millions of our fellow citizens I am not surprised they could be lured to virtually any viewpoint. However the 'qualities' induging in populist truth shuffling is getting just as bad. Concerning all round. Peres delivered some very uncomfortable home truths to us!

phil

Mr Melrose
August 3rd, 2010 9:23am Instead of bombarding Dixon with your extraordinary knowledge and intelligence ,why not answer the very simple questions that I posed for you ,otherwise many her might doubt your purpose ,they are not difficult questions but to the point I must admit -we will all look forward to hearing from you ,reminder aug ,1 at 7pm.

Lindsay

It is ironic that, in the early years of last century, the Zionists worked with those in government in Britain who were keen to divert the Jews seeking refuge from Russia because they considered immigration harmful and, in a startling number of instances, because they were startlingly anti-semitic; similarly in the 1930s with both Britain and the US; similarly, although it is hard to credit now, in 1945, when everyone knew the plight of the survivors of the Holocaust. So, Shimon Peres is right to agree with Benny Morris if what they are referring to is this. I can't think how else anti-semitism has influenced British policy to Israel. Britain has been sufficiently staunch in its support for Shimon Peres to feel able to accept an honorary knighthood.

Adam B.

Lindsay, it manifests itself in all sorts of ways, not just governemntal. the actions of the unions, academia, the media - all of which single out Israel for vitriol, and hold Israel to different standards than elsewhere, including the UK itself. In addition, one may wish to ponder British military assistance to Israel's enemies - the British trained and directly commanded the Arab Legion when it laid siege to the Jewish quarter of Jerusalm in 1948, then took part in the ethnic cleansing of the Jews from the city and surrounding areas, including Hebron. The actions of the Attlee and Bevin government were atrocious by any standard - sending Holocaust survivors to Germany, whilst Bevin said "the Jews are trying ot push to the front of the queue" - amongst other antisemitic ramblings.

Cameron has now stuck the boot in as well (whilst the Uk arms Saudi Arabia and other luminaries of human rights to the teeth). Why would Israelis feel well disposed to the UK?

Mr Melrose

PHIL

'Mr Melrose
August 3rd, 2010 9:23am Instead of bombarding Dixon with your extraordinary knowledge and intelligence ,why not answer the very simple questions that I posed for you ,otherwise many her might doubt your purpose ,they are not difficult questions but to the point I must admit -we will all look forward to hearing from you ,reminder aug ,1 at 7pm'

A) Well, Thank-you Phil. I am quite bright, aren't I? But I dont think 'Bombardment' is quite the right term to use in my treatment of poor old Dixon. My input here is quite modest - a lot gets censored out due to mention of , er....HER. However, from what I have seen Dixon can look after himself (or herself)

B) The reason I tend not to be positive about Israel is that It is a first world democracy backed to the hilt by the USA, and so has different responsibilities to countries run by lunatic dictators such as Zimbabwe or Burma. This board is basically about Israel, but if you want to talk about Burma (and it needs talking about) feel free.

C) I am going to quote Groucho Marx here and say that I would not want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member. As for business, if you can provide a robust ZTV analysis (or counter it) then we can talk.

D) I had hoped to have started a Basil Brush thread on here, but no go so far.

E) Yes, there is good and bad in everyone, and in all races. thats the whole of it is it not?

phil

Mr Melrose
August 5th, 2010 6:44pm -At least now we know you are a joker and not to be taken seriously.it does help -Can you tell me what ztv is -I may be able to help you then ?