The war against the Jews (18)

Dr Martin Meenagh

This sort of behaviour by Hamas and their ilk has precluded no end of efforts over the years. Remember the American-Israeli business effort to get Palestinian business produce, mostly fruit onto a sealed train and out to international markets? They were even going to build rail infrastructure in Palestine. I knew some of the backers personally. All impossible because of threats of this sort of violence from the death cults.

As for the growing demonisation of Rome by Islamists, I have a horrible feeling that this will all end in tears. That city is uniquely vulnerable to all sorts of attacks of precisely the sort that the islamists you are focussed on are stirring up.

Why are people so silly and hateful?

Dave

Most supplies, most of the time?
Shall we say it's mostly a siege then?

Dee Ranged

Patricia and Bob Latchford -

It’s not about Israel. It’s the western world, stupid

Ann

"Most supplies, most of the time?
Shall we say it's mostly a siege then?"

No, Dave: join the dots, and you will realise that it means 'mostly NO siege'. But then, you have already decided to blame Israel for blowing up its own crossing points, right?

patricia

Yawn.

Frank Pulley

patricia

Off to sleepy-byes then - like the rest of the dhimmis. The rude awakening is imminent though, so don't get too cosy. But then, I suppose as you're 'sleeping with the enemy' already, perhaps you're looking forward to the New Caliphate.

mohamed of pompey

I dont thnk there is any alternative to dealing with hamas. I agree with carter 4 tryin'. What has israel to lose frm talkin' to the enmy? nothing! it might even work hopefully,So y not try, and see what happens. Mel u need to chill out a little bit,dear, hamas is no so poweful as to threaten the whole world,they can barely control gaza.

David B

Melanie, will you be responding to Johann Hari's piece about Israel in the Independent?

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-israel-is-suppressing-a-secret-it-must-face-816661.html

Just wondering...

Ravi

And here you can see the children of Gaza under concentration camp conditions http://www.guardianweekly.co.uk/?page=editorial&id=567&catID=3 maybe mom & pop could do with losing a bit of weight!

Shy Guy

mohamed of pompey
April 28th, 2008 12:28pm:

I dont thnk there is any alternative to dealing with hamas. I agree with carter 4 tryin'. What has israel to lose frm talkin' to the enemy?

Palestinian Media Watch's Itamar Marcus
answers your question.

Henrietta

Plenty of people are pointing up Mr Hari\'s delusions on that website.

Anyway, what is Mr Hari doing going all the way to the Middle East to sniff ordure? It can\'t reek worse than his own clippings file.

Don\'t worry, Johann, the Caliphate will be here soon enough and it won\'t be s*** you\'ll be sniffing then but blood. And given your own sexuality, you\'ll be one of the first to be providing it.

What a cosseted, complacent little fool.

Frank Pulley

David B

Your suggestion that Melanie fisks Hari: Nah! It would be like shooting fish in a barrel. I offer one paragraph from the piece you cite to illustrate my point -

"But I can't do it. Whenever I try to mouth these words, a remembered smell fills my nostrils. It is the smell of shit. Across the occupied West Bank, raw untreated sewage is pumped every day out of the Jewish settlements, along large metal pipes, straight onto Palestinian land."

Well, Hari should be familiar the smell of ess aithch one tee. And I don't just mean his copy for The Independent. Oh please return from oblivion Scott Burgess; if ever there was a need for a Daily Ablution it is now! Why Oh why didn't Andrew Neil sign him up for the Speccy?

Ben

Frank Pulley. What a nasty homophobic little creep you are.

Si, N

Ravi, are you an advocate of 'concentration camp conditions' or something?

Does that sort of remark pass as humour in your circle?

Ben

Henrietta. Can you offer any meaningful comments on Hari's article?

Or are you so stupid all you can offer are homophobic comments?

You nasty sad little woman.

Ben

Si,N. I agree. So come on Ravi, what actually is your point?

Henrietta

Ben,

There's plenty of detailed meaningful comment on The Not So Independent website below Hari's rubbishy article, which is why I directed people to it. I don't see the point of my regurgitating all that here.

Moreover, nowhere in my post did I offer any 'homophobic comments'. I defended the gay community from those who would oppress them to the point where they would kill them just for being gay.

Perhaps if you go to the Middle East and see officers of a sharia court stone a homosexual to death you'll understand the real meaning of homophobia, instead of writing unfounded sanctimonious twaddle.

Ravi

To those who don't get the irony that we have to endure the Taqiyaa that Gazans live under concentration camp condition when clearly they don't. I thought that photo of a happy smiling and well-fed group of Palestinian children would be a wonderful way to put people's minds at rest. It goes with all the faking of fuel crises and starving Gazan concentration camp victims crawling across the border to buy much needed TV's and matresses.

Henrietta

Ah, poor Ben, not are you only spiteful enough to accuse people of saying things they’ve never said, but you’re so asinine you can’t even understand simple sarcasm.

Life’s going to be a bit of a struggle for you, isn’t it?

It’s hard to complain of near starvation caused by food shortages when there are fatty boom booms walking about the place. The people in that photo are no more short of food than the seconds loving Mr Hari himself – will they invite him to dinner, perhaps?

Oh, and please don’t take offence at my using the word fat – it’s a description I apply to gutbags of every race, creed and colour.

Ben

Henrietta. I quote:

'And given your own sexuality, you\'ll be one of the first to be providing it.'

Oh I see, your above comment should not be taken as an insult. Why then, I wonder, was it necessary to mention his sexuality at all? It patently had no relevance to the article.

Moreover, your comment is no less offensive because of your alleged, (and I'm sure heroic), defence of gay poeple.

Furthermore, 99% of people have not seen 'a sharia court stone a homosexual to death' as I suspect you have not, but that doesn't mean we cannot spot grubby homophobic little comments like yours for what they really are.

Si, N

Ravi, my heart bleeds - having to 'endure the Taqiyaa that Gazans live under concentration camp condition' must very traumatic for you.
But when you've quite finished feeling sorry for yourself and you're done making facile remarks about the people in the photo - maybe you could take the time to consider what Dr. Mona el-Farra actually says - perhaps then you will understand a thing or two about endurance. Though I doubt it - you barbarian.

Henrietta

No, Ben, there’s nothing offensive in that because it’s not me who’s threatening Mr Hari.

It was necessary to mention Mr Hari’s sexuality to show what a deluded fool the man is because he reproduces wholesale the propaganda of people who, if they have their way, will go beyond Israel to destroy our whole way of life, of which freedom for gays is but a small part.

Of course, the contradictions in Mr Hari’s piece are something you’re desperate to avoid, so I can see how it benefits you not to bring his sexuality into it.

Tara

Sorry, Si, N, I can’t see anyone feeling sorry for themselves or being facile. Taqiyaa is a very deadly business indeed, because it involves playing the wounded, dying animal only because you’re trying to wait for the chance to load the next load of poisonous venom into your fangs.

No doubt the Islamists have plenty of laughs when they see people falling for it, so why shouldn’t we have a little laugh at their expense?

Won’t be much laughter in the Caliphate, so we might as well get it in now.

London Calling

David B
The report you linked by
Johann Hari: 'Israel is suppressing a secret it must face', is in fact incorrect.
The truth is 'Israel is exposing a secret it must now face.
Peace was never on the table and never will be, as long as Israel exists. To prove my point, why do you think the Palestinian people do not rise up against Hamas?. The Human suffering the Palestinians endure falls at the feet of Hamas, who sacrifice their people like lambs to the slaughter, only they feed hatred towards the Pigs and the Monkeys. The Goats (Hamas) will run to the hills when it suits them, do not be fooled as their people are?
Do you think it doesn’t pain me to know innocents suffer, they always have and always will since time began, it was innocents that were killed on 9/11 and 7/7 remember, and many innocent Muslim Brothers and Sister also.
And as far as Johann Hari's further comments:
'Perhaps Hamas' proposals are a con; perhaps all the Arab states are lying too when they offer Israel full recognition in exchange for a roll-back to the 1967 borders; but isn't it a good idea to find out?”
We did that and where did it get us, British Born and Bread Jihadis? the consideration of Sharia Law in the U.K and Gordon Browns ambition to form the First Islamic Bank in the U.K., which will no doubt end up bank rolling a global Jihad, No Thanks!!
Israel will not allow herself to be penetrated and destroyed from within and neither should we?

Ravi
The report you linked by: Doctor Mona el-Farra i
“My walk is not safe or pleasant because the drones and fighters are in the sky and I can hear bombing and shelling. I don’t enjoy the walk – I feel danger”.
Is Mona el-Farra i describing Hamas or attacks by Israel?
I see no mention of Palestinian civilian homes (with occupying families still present) being used by Hamas to launch rockets at Israel, why? I know why, do you?

Thinkster

The problem here is that the British are hopeless when it comes to the truth in any given situation. In the past, they have been charitable and keen to expose genuine abuses by nations and/or suffering caused by natural disasters, such as the Ethiopian famin of the 1970s & 80s, or abuses in Zombabwe. What has happened since is the very very effective PR machine operated by the Palestinians by whoeever is manipulating them is now exploiting this same caring attitude of the British. However, we are being hood winked - and the hard working industrious Israelis who could if given a chance offer so much to the Palestinians are being vilified. Yes, there are some issues with the religious right in Israel (little different than any other sect, so not unique!), but the issue here is, because Israel is a democracy and has the eyes of the world upon it, it is vulnerable. It's enemies are all dictatorships with no free press to question their behavior. The British (in particular the brainwashed Independent) need to decide what exactly they represent.

Ravi

Ravi, my heart bleeds - having to 'endure the Taqiyaa that Gazans live under concentration camp condition' must very traumatic for you.
But when you've quite finished feeling sorry for yourself and you're done making facile remarks about the people in the photo - maybe you could take the time to consider what Dr. Mona el-Farra actually says - perhaps then you will understand a thing or two about endurance. Though I doubt it - you barbarian. LOL!!!! A picture is worth a thousand words!!! Where are the starving Palestinians from concentration camps? When they broke the border with Egypt did we see ragged-clothed emaciated people begging a crust or did we see healthy entrepeneurs buying bedding, cigarettes, tv's, moto-bikes and mobile phones to make big money on the black market. This whole Taqiyaa about starving, destitute and opressed Palestinians is a lie bought and propogated by some of the stooges here. I won't trade insults with you. Mine are far too valuable to waste.

Ravi

London Calling, the Gazans are in fear of Hamas. By instilling fear and demanding protests and commandeering of homes for rocket factories and terrorists hideouts. Hamas don't want peace with Israel they want destruction of Israel. "War is deceit" said Mohammed. What amazes me is the number of willing dupes and stooges that Hamas control OUTSIDE of Gaza in Islaington, Highbury and Highgate. I strongly believe that these peolle are motivated by Antisemitism and no argument will dissuade me. BTW - Hari is going to get slaughtered in blog-land and I think there is a sustainable case with the PCC since Hari used a quote that Benny Morris retracted (as he is credited with reporting it). He actually wrote to The Independent and TOLD them that the Ben Gurion quote is not correct - and yet Hari uses it. He's the one in the doo-doo!

Sarah

Don’t you love Mr Hari?

Roll back to the 1967 borders? The ones that mean it becomes oh-so easy to launch attacks on Israel?

And what happened when Israel pulled out of Gaza not so long ago? Why, it found itself showered with more and more rockets. Wasn’t that a con, Mr Hari?

No wonder The (Anything But) Independent has never made a profit – it’s not likely to with trash like this.

London Calling

Ravi

Who are the stooges that Hamas control OUTSIDE of Gaza in Islaington, Highbury and Highgate? (Boroughs in North London).

we must have clarity if we are to understand each other?

Ann

Israel has talked to the enemy - the slight problem is that the enemy is not interested in talking except as a ruse. We have seen this time and time again.

Ann

"endure the Taqiyaa that Gazans live under concentration camp conditions" - utterly pathetic fertiliser. It's the usual Arab lie, taking a chapter of Jewish suffering and mendaciously applying it to themselves. You have no concept of what concentration camp conditions are really like.

Thinkster

Yikes, I made some awful typos in my post - am a busy man. How can one fix this? Also, I do hope that people like Patricia get to go live in Israel for a year or two. Everyone I know who has done so returns with a very different view. Why? Because our news is filtered and manipulated here in the UK. It is interesting to note that most nefarious entities employ PR agencies or spokesmen to gloss over the truth. Considering this puts lives at risk, it is appalling.

Dee Ranged

Ben - Methinks you have an unnatural sensitivity to things homophobic!

Might the charge be that you are a closet heterophobic of considerable proportions?

Harvey

Spot on article by Johann Hari - no wonder the naqba deniers hate it so much.

And I see Violet Elizabeth is still thcweaming and thcweaming until she is thick in these comments. Doesn't she have anything else to do?

Fran Waddams

With reference to Johann Hari's vile piece in the Independent, the following comment has to take the biscuit.

'Absolute moral perverts, that most Israeli Jews have evolved into, cannot be expected to show any kind of moral stance and amend their despicable ways.
Jewish humanity is a thing of the past where Israel is concerned, and many critical posts here to Hari's measured article amply proves their yet in satiated moral scatology.
Sixty more years of galloping moral decay can hardly be imagined.
Are most of them suffering from such a deep guilt syndrome as cannot be addressed anymore ?
Where else from that deep alienation from anyone not Jewish ?

Complain about this comment
Posted by aribra | 28.04.08, 16:33 GMT'

Complain about the comment? You bet I did!

What were the moderators thinking of? What was the Independent thinking of to allow such a hate-filled diatribe to appear on its website??

Ann

"naqba deniers" - that's another one of those thieving idiocies from Jewish history that the Arabs and their useful fools perpetrate all the time.

Ravi

Harvey, is the article spot-on for the number of lies it tells? For a start his quote about Ben Gurion and needing to start a war with the Arabs is 100% of what Hari is writing about. The quote is attributed to Benny Morris's writings and Benny Morris wrote to The Independent a few years back and said "Don't repeat this quote because its not true" and yet Hari repeats it. He says that Israel was created out of The Holocaust when it was re-created out of the Balfour Declaration. I see that as long as the article is very simple and confirms your hatred of Israel (and possibly a closet Antisemitism) you think its great. Palestinian Stooge!

Adam B.

Harvey, you are disgusting. The reason you repeatedly use the term "naqba deniers" is to try to draw equivalence in your bigoted spite with Holocaust. You are a loathsome creature. deniers

Adam B.

Ben, Henrietta was merely pointing out (apparently a point lost on you) that homosexuals face inhuman treatment in much of the Islamic world, including the world Hamas inhabits and tries to spread, the ideology Hari doesn't have a bad word to say about. Instead you target Henrietta for your vitriol, and leave Hamas and its paymaster Iran off the hook. How perceptive you are.

Frank Pulley

Ben

You say: "What a nasty homophobic little creep you are."

Less of the 'little', if you please, Mr. Dover!

field

I'm a Naqba denier because the "Naqba" is meant to imply a terrible disaster visited upon the Arabs in Palestine by foreign interlopers.

Whereas the Naqba was ENTIRELY of the Arabs' making. They could have recognised Israel, allowed the creation of an independent Palestine, agreed the internationalisation of Jerusalem and joined with the dynamic new state of Israel in regional economic development.

Instead they chose war and a policy of genocide. The "disaster" was entirely of their own making.

Frank Pulley

Btw, Ben, I admit that I have had a healthy aversion to buggery for about eight decades now. It has helped me to remain a bum-virgin so far - how about you?

Ann

And we need to know these intimate details of Frank's sex life vecause ...?

Laura

Johann Hari is typical of the spiteful Left.

Roughly speaking, his world view can be drawn as a pyramid. At the top of that pyramid is his hatred of America – the apotheosis of successful capitalism.

Underneath the top of that hate pyramid comes everything else that is trying to pull down what’s at the top. Mr Hari will scream abot his own sexuality and how it fits into gay rights and so on but this becomes muted when it collides with Islamism.

Islamism is far too strong a destructive force on America to come in for harsh criticism from Mr Hari. He’s prepared to go soft on gay rights if it means allowing a free punch from Islamism to the king of the capitalist West.

How on earth can you go around wailing about your sexuality, gay rights and then not be prepared to confront those contradictions that throws up when it comes to Islamism? It’s the height of hypocrisy.

Harvey

Oh dear...
Temper! Temper!
I wonder about the point of carrying on this dialogue of the deaf - the Israel lobby will believe what it wants to believe in the face of overwhelming evidence because it wants to believe it a lot. However, the penny eventually drops with the occasional individual so here goes...
1. At the risk of tedious repetition, hating Jews is an idiocy.
2. Violet Elizabeth/Adam B (you're cute too btw) genocide and ethnic cleansing are not equivalent, but the latter is a crime against humanity and to deny it a wickedness - so get over the label!
3. Ravi - I have no idea as to the authenticity of the particular quote but the body of evidence that Ben Gurion was an enthusiastic ethnic cleanser is overwhelming. He couldn't see anything wrong with it. Morris, unlike some of the dissemblers here, at least has the virtue of telling the truth or at least some of it. He knows the naqba happened. The ever so slight problem is he gets hs rocks off on it. His only regret is that it wasn't more comprehensive with fewer demographic problems (sic) to worry about.
Oh and for what it's worth I agree with hari descriptively but not prescriptively. The only viable solution is a one state one with a state of its citizens - this is the usual arrangement.

Laura

"The Israel lobby will believe what it wants to believe in the face of overwhelming evidence because it wants to believe it a lot."

The "viable solution is a one state one with a state of its citizens - this is the usual arrangement".

So much for the Israel lobby, Harvey. I'm not Israeli or Jewish and have no friends or relatives who are Jewish.

You want to talk about evidence and it's staring you in the face on this very post in the poisonous words of Yunis al-Astal.

He isn't proposing a one state solution at all. He proposing a one Caliphate solution. Israel is just one part of the Islamists' ambition.

For Yunis al-Astal, tearing Israel's bowels out is just one "phase" in the grand Islamist project - why are you so deaf to that?

Harvey

Laura - sure, al-Astal is a clown and a (minor) part of the problem and not the solution. He is a part of the problem in that he gives ammunition to the Israel lobby for their last remaining gig (apart from screaming anti-semitism), namely seeking to convince the west that there is an identity of interest between Israel and the west. He is a symptom of the immiseration of the Palestinians and complaining about him is rather like pouring petrol on the fire and then being surprised that the blaze has got out of control. Maybe give the Palestinians something to be moderate about?

Laura

Oh Harvey, step forward the world’s worst spin doctor.

There are plenty of Islamists who speak like Yunis al-Astal. Far from being a clown, for them he is a respected leader. Since when was it pouring petrol on something to tell the truth?

Of course, you don’t want people to mention this man’s words because it fatally undermines the arguments of fools like you. How convenient if the world doesn’t get to hear what happens when the Islamist mask slips. And you have the cheek to dress it up as me being cruel to the Palestinians to draw attention to it.

The only clown round here is you – and creepy with it, too.

Harvey

Laura - another charm school dropout, I see. You miss the point totally but I can't be bothered...
Have a nice day.

Jo

Yes, Harvey, let’s not talk about anything because it might make it worse. No point in crticising that Mr Hitler, that might inflame his supporters even more.

Ben-Tsiyon

To what end would Harvey's "Israel lobby" seek to "convince the west that there is an identity of interest between Israel and the west." ! Israel knows, from the whole Jewish experience, that it stands alone. The west's pre-disposition to suicide is its own business ! Harvey's demonstration of 'classic anti-Semitism' (which he would of course protest)is illustrated by the following extract from Rabbi Ken Spiro's brilliant "Crash Course in Jewish History, Part 10", on the Ten Plagues that afflicted the Egyptians before the Exodus:

"Despite that,there is an amazing amount of resistance on the part of the Egyptians - not just the Pharaoh, but the whole of Egypt - to let the Jews leave. It is classic anti-Semitism, "I don't care if I take my whole country down as long as I can take the Jews with me." "

Ann

"the Israel lobby will believe what it wants to believe in the face of overwhelming evidence because it wants to believe it a lot": since you know nothing about Israel, never having lived there, this is about as comprehensive a mirror image of the truth as one can get. Israel haters and antisemites make up history as they go along. They even don't care whether or not Ben-Gurion actually said the words attributed to him and later retracted - Harvey said so in so many words, further proof that he cares nothing about the historical evidence. With people like that, is it any wonder that they fall for the propaganda and the fabrications about 'ethnic cleansing', 'naqba' and other such nonsense, since in their distorted world-view this seems to justify to them their pathological hatred of Jews.

N. Simon

From reading all the comments on here, it seems like the Israel/Jew haters really can't stand having facts interfering with their fabrications.

Ravi

Well Harvey, you're not sure whether Hari used a false quote eh? So here is the relevant text of Benny Morris's letter to The Independent warning them that Hari had mis-quoted. No need to apologise, I know I'm right, I know you're wrong and that's all I need Benny Morris, wrote in a letter at the time to The Independent, addressing the charge of "ethnic cleansing" and referring to the above quote as:

an invention, pure and simple, either by Hari or by whomever he is quoting (Ilan Pappe?)....

Neither Ben-Gurion nor the Zionist movement 'planned' the displacement of the 700,000-odd Arabs who moved or were removed from their homes in 1948. There was no such plan or blanket policy. Transfer was never adopted by the Zionist movement as part of its platform; on the contrary, the movement always accepted that the Jewish state that arose would contain a sizeable Arab minority.

Paddy

You can say that again, N Simon.

Anything that exposes the Islamist apologists for what they are is nowadays met with them brazenly trying to airbrush the facts of a situation to suit their position.

It’s not that they don’t get Islamism, it’s that they don’t want to get it.

Harvey takes his cue from the disgraceful Madeleine Bunting of The Guardigroan, who in a notorious incident tried to stop someone reading aloud from The Koran.

You don’t like the message? Easy, blame the messenger. What a pathetic bunch.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1395

Frank Pulley

Actually Ann, it was my oblique reference to Joan Hari's sex life that aroused Ben's ire and it became a bone of contention only because Hari had gotten excited about the smell of odure in his nasty piece about Israel/Palestine. He is only too keen to use his 'sexual orientation' as a political device when it suits him, being a member of one of the 'useful idiot' minorities recruited by the leftist counter culture mechanics. I wouldn't dream of discussing 'the intimate details' of mine - even supposing I still had one. :-)

London Calling

Fuelling Conflict
Peter Hoskin 2:33am subject:
London Calling
April 29th, 2008 10:11am

Firstly, I think we need to remove the Mask of Hamas and fully absorb their true motives. Hamas has openly admitted they will never accept the State of Israel, and all the newborn Muslims in Gaza and elsewhere are taught this, along with History lessons at school that brainwash hatred towards the Christians and the Jews, and it becomes imbedded in their minds along with full support from the Koranic text, the most unique propaganda device in which to recruit soldiers for Jihadism and War against Israel and the West.

The spark will not come from the Olympic Torch, but from within themselves, remember, Death is Martyrdom, Honour & Paradise to Jihadism, and we in the West still want to believe that Peace can be Brokered, the only problem is, we have everything to live for and Jihadism Doesn’t.

GaryL

Peace between Israel and Palestinians would wreck the whole edifice of international relations. Remove Palestinians from their international welfare sNackbar and the whole structure of the UN would collapse. The UN's Human Rights Commission would have to construct a new set of complaints about the Zionist entity, or maybe even condemn their own travesties. Where would a Palestinian state be positioned in the Arab League - at the head, vying with the roles of Iran, Syria, the Saudis & Egypt, or as an ineffective mob like Jordan. Muslims would loose their accepted reason for hatred of the west and maybe have to review their own imperialism. What else should we call their efforts to Islamise the west.

The whole mess of world diplomacy is completely dependent on the absence of peace for Israel.

Ernest Cam

Frank Pulley: "I wouldn't dream of discussing 'the intimate details' of mine ...."
Frank, I hope the nuts have resumed their former position after the walk on the wild side!
Thus: "HTF did they do that??? As I watched my balls left my scrotum and returned whence they came before they dropped about 65 years ago. I doubt they will ever descend again - even though it's not ver-ti-go. Sheer terror! Posted by: Frank Pulley at April 5, 2008 3:52 PM "

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Add Harvey to the list of those who admit that no lie is beyond using if it makes the evil Zionists look bad.

But my favorite statement is where he says that advocating the end of Israel and the subjugation of its Jewish citizens to a Caliphate is bad -- not because there is anything wrong (in his eyes) with the goal, but because admitting the goal might help the Zionists create propaganda.

So -- when an anti-Zionist lies, it's just alerting the world to how evil Israel is. But when a member of the feared Israel Lobby tells the truth, that's propaganda.

Harvey, you have a great future in store working for the Ministry of Truth.

Lynne T

Mo of Pompey:

Israel has indicated it is prepared to talk to Hamas provided Hamas makes one little concession -- that it recognizes Israel's statehood. Hamas, being somewhat more principled than Fatah, has balked at suggesting anything more than a temporary truce, and that's only for the purpose of rearming.

Yeah, you have to talk to your enemies to negotiate a peace, but usually that only comes when the enemy is sufficiently cornered and has no other option. Hamas, despite the economic sanctions imposed by many nations, is kept afloat by Tehran and won't be backed into a corner until fools like Carter stop engaging in delusional fantasies that they are any different from the regime in Tehran that he couldn't deal with during his presidency.

gurbach

Sixty years ago, Britain was still an Empire that made a difference in people and nations life and destiny. It was tasked in administering the "British Mandate" and in bringing about the establishment of a Jewish Homeland (Balfour Declaration and League of Nations). Instead, in bad faith, it proceeded to manipulate the population and to renege on its formal, informal and moral commitments to both Jews and Arabs. It continually shifted its position away from the commitment to the Jews and into an alliance with Arab dictators, and sought to acquire credibility with the masses by linking these tyrants to Islamic themes ( The Hashemite are Muhammad decedents, Ibn Saud an Islamist religious leader). The British actually created a proxy Arab army, The Arab Legion, completely under the command of British officers. This army participated in the war against the Jews and was effective in the blockade of Jerusalem and further participated in the Gush Ezion massacre, where surrendering civilians, women, children and men were summarily butchered. The Arab Legion (The Arab British) blockade of Jerusalem was nothing like the so called contemporary Gaza blockade. Israeli freedom fighters had to brave and to pay a dear price while maneuvering around the Latroun police station turned Arab stronghold.
Now - from my perspective, the perspective of an Israeli Jew, these were the actions of an Evil Empire. You guys have blood on your hands, you have denied my refugees brothers and sisters entry and shelter in your country when you knew they will be systematically annihilated by the Nazis. You have blocked my refugees brothers and sisters entry to Palestine/Israel and doomed them to the death camps. And you betrayed the Jews that you were suppose to protect, all the way to actively being involved in blockade and massacre.
The Empire is gone - I guess only the Evil is left.
All I can see from UK is pontification and moral posturing. Seemingly educated people take an emotional illogical position in a minor regional conflict. The same highly moral individuals ignore, at the same time, atrocities of biblical scale as the one inflicted, as we speak, in Darfur.
Your denial of my right for self defense is Anti Semitic.
Britain Heal thyself.

Adam B.

Harvey you sad man, hating Jews in not an "idiocy" as you say, it is evil. Many intelligent people hate Jews, unfortunately they have no humanity. Hamas are not idiots, they are however evil. And by the way, do you acknowledge the ethnic cleansing of the Jews of Arab lands? It may interest you that a greater number of Jewish refugees were created in 1948 than Arab refugees, (a fact the left never seems concerned about). Or are you a "denier" of this fact?

Frank Pulley

Ernest Cam

:-) Thank you for your kind though mischievous) enquiry. Yes everything returned to normal once back on terra firma. For the record perhaps I should supply the link to which that that somewhat coarse comment was attached lest anyone should misinterpret the ‘wild side’ allusion in cryptic remark:

http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/whats_just_so_wrong_with_this_picture/take_a_walk_on.php

Doesn’t vertigo do that to you, too? All to do with fear – nothing to do with sex! But you knew that anyway.

Bob Gray

gurbach: I always wait - not with bated breath - for
'moderate' muslims to condemn any extreme view held by one of
their religion's proponents.
It will be interesting to see what response your post elicits, if any, from certain contributors to this thread.

Charles

Gurbach,

No British Empire = No Israel. Your hatred is misplaced.

Ann

Charles, you are indulging in parallel universe nonsense. There is no knowing how history would have proceeded sans British Empire. Other than a few minor inaccuracies, what Gurbach says is correct - and one could say quite a bit more.

Charles

Ann,

Not so. If British and Arab forces had not liberated Palestine from the Ottomans then the early Zionists would have gone the same way as the Armenians, there can be no doubt of that. And if the British had not introduced the Balfour Declaration there would have been little scope for the subsequent immigration. Without that immigration there would have been no basis for Israel. So, no British Empire, no Israel.

phil

gurbach -it was the pathetic foreign office ,famed for its pro Arab view -it was not the British nation-too many fought and died to rid us of the nazi,s to be labelled like that -individuals yes ,a nation n

Ben-Tsiyon

Gurbach, 'kol hakavod'(good on ya)! Right on every point.
Charles, Jewish nationhood in the land of our forefathers was destined to be restored without the 'help' of the British or any other empire. The Balfour Declaration wasn't worth the paper it was written on. The British reneged on their undertakings anyway. The Arabs' ongoing wailing about the 'nakbah' is ludicrous. The British are the best friends they've ever had!

Geraldine

Yunis al-Astal “is a symptom of the immiseration of the Palestinians”, Harvey?

You’re telling me someone who has the gall to stand up and salivate over destroying Israel today and the world tomorrow is feeling immiserated?

Hamas and friends don’t sound too immiserated to me. They sound like they’re having a jolly good laugh at non-Muslims’ expense.

Maybe Islamists think of Taqiyaa as their own version of Jeremy Beadle-style practical joke shows, laughing themselves hoarse that people can be so dumb to think they’re not up to no good.

Charles

Ben,

I am not suggesting that the British Empire "helped" to create Israel, only that its involvement led to this eventuality. As for the Balfour Declaration, that proved to be a very mixed blessing for Germany's Jewish community, as you may know.

Ann

Charles tells us "there can be no doubt of that". There is a name for people who go around with this level of certainty about what would or would not have happened.

Charles

Ann,

Don't take my word for it, Google "Ambassador Henry Morgenthau" and read of the efforts he went to protect the Ottoman Armenian and Jewish populations alike.

Bob Gray

Thanks Phil for the, so far lone, voice of fairness. However, the rest appear to be birds of a feather flocking together around 'gurbach'. So dissapointing. I think it's time I got my coat.
ArthurNumbNuts, I'll save you the trouble of a post:
"Gray, you are a ranting, narrow-minded, anti-semitic, ignorant, pathethic, pathological Jew hater, so good riddance to you."

Charles

Ann,

And this from a book by Yair Auron: "Whatever Ben Gurion's public strategy may have been, he wrote privately to his father in 1919 "Jamal Pasha [then Turkish military ruler in Palestine] planned from the outset to destroy the entire Hebrew settlement in Eretz Yisrael, exactly as they did the Armenians in Armenia"

Ann

Charles, this is still speculation about the future, whoever said it. It is not a certainty.
That part of Armenia was within Turkey proper. Israel was not. The two situations were not identical.

Shy Guy

So, no British Empire, no Israel.

In Hebrew we say "harbei shluchim la'Makom", which means "The Almighty has many agents".

His Divine plan will always succeed in being carried out, with or without the Brits.

phil

Bob Gray ---much of what Gurbach wrote is true ,but I wrote because it was not balanced by all the fantastic sacrifices made by British people too -this site can be so emotive and particularly for people who have been hurt by the history attached to both Jews and Israelis,so allowances must be made to many views expressed here

Peter

Laura says, "Islamism is far too strong a destructive force on America to come in for harsh criticism from Mr Hari. He’s prepared to go soft on gay rights if it means allowing a free punch from Islamism to the king of the capitalist West.

How on earth can you go around wailing about your sexuality, gay rights and then not be prepared to confront those contradictions that throws up when it comes to Islamism? It’s the height of hypocrisy."

If you had bothered to find anything out about Hari, you would know he is a fierce critic of Islamic fundamentalism, and has been the subject of a large number of death threats from jihadis for his exposes of their homophobia etc.

You should apologise for your (at best) ignorance.