The Vatican reverses into a darker age

david elder

Bustros' theology is hard to follow. He might have been credible had he merely argued in principle for a two state solution. But he seems to be endorsing an unqualified Palestinian right of return. This is manifestly impractical, and moreover would logically demand a parallel right of extensive compensation of the many Jews who were expelled since 1948 from other Middle Eastern countries where they had long resided.

Ray

Perhhaps, Mel, you should refer the learned Monsignor to Chapter 11 of St Pauls Letter to the Romans.

elixelx

A Bishop, from Boston, from Massachusettes, from America!
Could he be more Liberal than that?
I wonder if he believes that abortion is OK too; I wouldn't bet against that either.
This cannot, will not be present RC Doctrine. My guess is that Benedict will stamp down hard on this nincompoop and the misguided Bishop will soon be defrocked and deflocked!
Maybe the Archbishop of Canterbury could have mercy on him and give him something to do!

Dr Michael Salt

I think the Catholic Church is hoping that Israel will pick up the tab for the paedophile wreckage of recent years. In other words, blame the Jews and all will be forgotten.

Shameful. As ever.

David Lindsay

All he is saying is that Jesus is the Messiah. With everything that that entails. Call that "supersessionism" or "replacement theology" if you will. But the technical term for it is "Christianity". You know, the foundation of Western civilisation.

Which side would you expect the Church to be on, given the imposition of martial law on the Catholics of the West Bank, and the bombardment of the Catholics of Lebanon? But we are not allowed to know about them. It's all about Islam. Isn't it?

And this is surprising because.....?

Terry

It needs to be said by a Christian (and I will do for this purpose) that this theology is complete rubbish and that biblically the land has been given to the Jews. Of course, they don't need to argue from scripture in the political realm, but there you are. Apologies to Jews worldwide on behalf of biblical Christians for those coming up with drivel like this in the name of Christianity - talk about taking God's name in vain (ie to claim his authority for something he has not authorised).

Zachary

Israel is the only country in the "Holy Land" area where Christian population is increasing. So what, we all know how it goes: Christians flee Islam and its the Jews fault.

AndyinBrum

Priest tapes children and is moved to another parish

Priest says something patently silly and will be defrocked and kicked out the church?

Yup Priorities are spot on in the Catholic Church as usual

Sean

I agree with Ray, refer all of these Roman Catholic Bishops to Romans 11, as well as Ezekiel 36 and 37.

Also, inherent to this grossly errant replacement theology, if it is to be applied to the Jews then it should equally apply to Palestinian Muslims who also deny the Divinity of Jesus Christ.

In divorcing the overwhelming Islamic nature of the Arab Palestinians this Roman Catholic agenda is primarily a political one and has nothing whatsoever to do with the true Word of God.

David Lindsay

Dr Michael Salt, in the whipping up of that business by people who, unlike the Church, only disapprove of sex between men and boys if it is engaged in by Catholic priests, the role of certain American, especially New York-based, media has not gone unnoticed.

Like John Paul II, the then Cardinal Ratzinger unreservedly condemned the war in Iraq. Iran has had an arrangement in place for several years whereby the Vatican would mediate in any dispute with the United States should it ever really come to a head. Benedict XVI is, as John Paul II was, a great admirer of Pius XII, under whom the Holy See had quite warm relations with the State of Israel, which was not at that time imposing military law on the Catholics of the West Bank, nor occupying that part of the viable Palestinian State created on both sides of the Jordan at the end of the British Mandate, nor bombarding the Catholics of Lebanon.

Well, we cannot have any of that, can we? So the Pope’s moral authority must be destroyed by absolutely any means whatever. Lest, having been right on Iraq, he prevent a war against Iran, and possibly even bring about the reunification of Palestine on both sides of the Jordan while securing the sovereignty and integrity of Lebanon.

All that, and he does not agree that the world has too many proles and darkies in it. Nor that femaleness itself is a medicable condition requiring powerful chemical or surgical intervention. Nor that the preborn child is simultaneously insentient and a part of the mother’s body. He might even dare to ask whether it is the whole of a woman's body that is insentient, or only the parts most directly connected with reproduction?

As for the suggestion of Monsignor Bustros that the Palestinian refugees are going back, they probably are not, but Israel could lance that boil perfectly easily by declaring that she was now a settled rather than a settler society, so that the Law of Return would be repealed, thereby cutting the ground from under any wildly impractical demand for something comparable on the other side.

Reuven

It is mind-bending that the vatican, which purports to be the TRUE believers should have the chutspah to say that the Judeo-Christian Bible must not be used to support an argument for the Jews to live in their ancestral homeland.Too much!

Grumpy true Zionist

US bishop Cyril Salim Bustros is not Greek, but a Leb national, and as such has a political, and not a religious point to make.

Israel is and always has been the land of the Jewish people, irrespective of this confused take on things, by this individual.

Is he using this line perhaps, to deflect attention away from the US branch of the Catholic church, to the ongoing peadiaphile investigations.

Lets hope his 'exulted' hands are free in this other matter -could be really embarrasing otherwise

GaryO

In other news:

Tony Blair's sister in law converts to islam:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1323412/Tony-Blairs-sister-law-Lauren-Booth-says-Im-Muslim.html

"Miss Booth was a vocal opponent of the Iraq war and recently criticised Mr Blair, accusing him of bias towards Israel" the reoprt says.

She is also a journalist, works for PressTV, reads koran everyday and does not rule out wearing a burkha.

Quite obviously a feminist!

Andre

Come, come Melanie, dismissing the Roman Catholic Church as anti-Israeli when it has worked hard to atone for the sins of the past on the basis of a moonstruck Greko-Lebanese cleric dishonors you. Allow me to state loud and clear as a Catholic 'ani ohev Israel.'

JOHN ROOSEVELT

The Church should get back in its box and the catholic Church also stay away from children.

Simple..

David Lindsay

Grumpy true Zionist, thank you for making my point at 3:39pm.

GaryO, Lauren Booth's conversion to Islam exemplifies the real Islamic threat. It is the threat that people disgusted with the complete collapse of all moral standards in the personal, social and economic spheres, and left helpless by the closely connected, almost total loss of collective cultural memory, will convert to Islam in droves. Look at the mosques full of disaffected young men in Afro-Caribbean areas, and at the flourishing Student Islamic Societies full of white, middle-class, deep-thinking, and often female seekers. In comparable ways did many another country begin to be Islamised.

We need to re-learn structured daily prayer, setting aside one day in seven, fasting, almsgiving, pilgrimage, the global community of faith as the primary focus of personal allegiance and locus of personal identity, the lesser outward and greater inward struggle, the need for a comprehensive and coherent critique of both capitalism and Marxism, the coherence between faith and reason, and a consequent integrated view of art and science. The answer to the challenge of the Sunna is Sacred Tradition. The answer to the challenge of the Imamate is the Petrine Office. The answer to the challenge of Sufism is our own tradition of mysticism and monasticism.

Liberal Catholics will be the last to see the point. They will be too busy sucking up to, among other people, Zionist politicians and media types. Though not in return for anything, to put it at its very mildest.

Grumpy true Zionist

GaryO -she probably worships at the same mosque as George Galloway (hmm - smells like another kowtow to me) and just like George and his special relationship with islam.....just follow the money.

Andre - anachnu ohavim otcha key atah ohev et Israel
(we love you for your love of Israel)

RPK

Hope the Red Indians don't want Boston Mass. back or Romulus Remus and the pesky Etruscans don't start really complicating things by making claims on the Vatican City and wanting all those Christians to go back to Palestine
At least that gentleman with the same initials as the Jewish Chronicle would feel quite at home there finding everybody could understand him and he would be more familiar with the synagogues than those churches which sprang up after him
Anyway hope they all finish up in the Israeli bit as all the problems would have long been forgiven and forgotten and not the Islamic bits as I hear those poor old Christians are not finding the atmosphere very cordial and leaving
Funny old world innit

liz

Amazing isn't. Our society really believe that it's on top of everything - educated, thoughtful and civilised, and yet every time rears its ugly head it emerges in the most primitively, unsophisticated way imaginable. I wonder. Is anti-Semitism part of a non-Jew's DNA?

Guy Leven-Torres

Read Bat Ye'or Eurabia! She would agree. So do I!Last week I was called a 'filthy Jew', even though ny family has not been Jewish for centuries, descended as I am from the von Lewinsky aristocratic Prussian family, and distant cousin of Panzer General von Manstein, an adopted von Lewinsky.

Gerry C

The Bishop is talking through his mitre, and alas, he's not the only one. Here, however,is a quotation from The Catechism of the Catholic Church, published in English in 1994 and the accepted, authorised compendium of the RC Church's teaching: "The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews 'belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ; [Romans 9:4-5] 'for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable' [Romans 11:29]" (Section 839) Seems clear enough. (Incidentally, the Catechism's index references to 'Israel' run to nearly half a page; Islam merits (?) one very small section...)

As a Catholic visiting Eretz Yisroel/ the Holy Land some years ago, I received nothing but warm welcome from the Jews I met and from the Christian Arabs. Muslim Arab children spat on me in the street.

And one last thing (others raised this matter): I saw mentioned recently a report by a Jewish research institute in the US which apparently showed in its findings that, of all professional groups whose members were found guilty of child sexual abuse (including doctors, teachers, dentists etc) Catholic clergy ranked the lowest. I'd be grateful if anyone could provide a link to this research: not been able to find it myself yet.

Ani ohev Yisroel!

MartinT

Melanie, you are getting over-excited! The Synod that has just finished in Rome was primarily pastoral and aimed at the problems faced by Christians in the Middle East - living in a hostile culture. There were no official political pronouncements. The final statement was unambiguous in affirming a positive Catholic engagement with Judaism:

Propositio 41
Judaism

Judaism has a central place in the Declaration of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Nostra aetate. Initiatives of dialogue and cooperation with Jews are to be encouraged so as to foster human and religious values, freedom, justice, peace and fraternity. Reading the Old Testament and getting to know Jewish traditions lead to a better understanding of the Jewish religion. We reject anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism, while distinguishing between religion and politics.

Matt

Worth Bustros having a read through this:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/christianme.html

Utterly, utterly disgusting.

phil

David Lindsay
October 25th, 2010 4:46pm Sadly this thread has conjured up the same tone as some religious freaks that inhabit the coffee house wall ,a place where religion is an excuse for hatred of anyone who does not agree with their strange views ,be it on halal meat in a supermarket or even a different interpretation of their own religion -
-----------------
I suggest you consider turning away from religion and turning instead to GOD who may well be appalled by many who claim to represent him .I happily have many Christian friends ,yes real ones that believe in kindness and compassion to all,in fact they believe that was the message Jesus left for you ,not a message to perform all sorts of strange deeds and with them to cut off all those that may have different interpretation of what GOD wants from us .
----------------------
GOD gave the law to the Jews with the ten commandments ,chose them to shoulder the burden of keeping them , rather than giving them prestige ,oil and oranges .Unfortunately the sneering classes put a different interpretation on this matter and denigrate the Jewish people by that interpretation.We have been castigated for too long now , and only because Israel exists can we have an opinion ,I do not wish to hear any more nonsense about the law of return either ,Israel is a multicultural country where Arab ,Christian and Jew can coexist ,all that is required is goodwill and loyalty from all its citizens together with an agreement from Arab politicians not to wish to massacre the Jewish population .
--------------------
Please keep religious instruction to those that want to hear it ,I doubt that there are many here who do ,peace is what we want and I pray that one day that is what both Arab and Jew will have .

ann farmer

This sounds like Mgr. Bustros's personal opinion, and if so, he has overlooked Paul's letter to the Romans, chap 11, in which Paul insists that the Jews are still the Chosen People, because God does not change and does not retract His promises. Thus it has never been the Church's teaching that Christians have superseded the Jewish people although, sadly, in the past, Christians may have acted as though this was the case, and clearly, some still believe this error. The job of the popes is to hand on Christian teaching, not change it, although they can choose to emphasize certain teachings in the context of the times, and both John Paul II and Benedict XVI have emphasized the Jewish roots of Christianity at a time when Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism is on the rise.

Moll

Cyril Salim Bustros, the Lebanon-born Greek archbishop of Our Lady of the Annunciation in Boston, Massachusetts was responsible for delivering the final statement in which he declared that the original promises made by God to the children of Israel “were nullified by Christ. There is no longer a chosen people.”

This is where the road ends when theologians rewrite God's promises into the tenants of Replacement Theology. Everything you need to know about where, in the Kingdom of God, this particular denomination within christianity stands! Ask yourself, where does your particular denomination stand on this issue.

If the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob does NOT keep His promises He made to the "children of Israel", then any promises christians are depending upon for their salvation is put in doubt! That is, christians cannot rely on their promises of eternal life if they accept Jesus Christ as Lord. If original promises made by God to the children of Israel were nullified by Christ, as the archbishop says, then Jesus Christ is obviously a false saviour. God proclaimed in both the Hebrew and Christian bibles that He changes Not (Malachi 3:6), and that He is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8). That same God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, made those promises then, to Abraham, and He made those promises again in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

So, choose you this day, to believe or disbelieve, that the original promises made by God to the children of Israel “were nullified by Christ. There is no longer a chosen people.”

May God have mercy upon the spirit and soul and body of Cyril Salim Bustros and forgive him -- for he knows not what he has done.

What to do about this information? Send the Archbishop e-mails reminding him that his salvation depends upon the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob keeping the promises He made to the seed of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. Remind him also, that replacing what the scriptures say with his theology, does not change one jot or tittle of what God caused/inspired to be written down.grafwolff"@hotmail.com

roger

Jesus the Jew would be most displeased with Bustros and his antisemitic humbug and drivel. I'm sure there's a nice cosy corner for bilious Bustros in Hieronymous Bosch's hell where he can be tormented for eternity by his own devilish alter ego.

PhoebeHB

Liz writes: I wonder. Is anti-Semitism part of a non-Jew's DNA?
______________

Apparently so--at least the spiritual DNA. As one of the Rabbis Rabinowitz wrote, "Scratch the unredeemed heart and you'll find an anti-Semite." The older I get, the more this is confirmed to me.

Wolf Terner

If someone can believe in transubstantiation, that wine and crackers become the bblood and body of Christ, then supersessionism is hardly a stretch of doctrine. Remove this from Catholicism and what do you have? A religion sans basis for existence.

Alec

Is there any point in checking David Lindsay's blog to see if these comments are reproduced verbatim?

And the less said about Il Papa suddenly getting het-up about sacred texts being used to justify something (apparently) reprehensible the better.

C.Gee

David Lindsay:

I dunno, Dave. When it comes to praying, pilgrimage, almsgiving, Sabbath observance - all the trappings of religiosity - Islam has Catholicism beat. Sticking your bum to God five times a day as part of a whole choreographed chorus line is fun. All the women dress as nuns. The men can wear frocks, like priests. The Hajj - with the possibility of being crushed in stampede is thrilling, and you get to throw stones at pillars - much more exciting than the old wafer and wine rigmarole. But assuming Catholicism can resurrect its appeal - perhaps by offering to provide virgins, raisins and sports cars in heaven? - what will the confrontation with Islam be like? A clash of theocracies bringing the new Crusades? Or will they divide up the world between them? And who will take the Jews?

And as for Catholicism fulfilling the need for a Third Way - how did you put it? - "the need for a comprehensive and coherent critique of both capitalism and Marxism, the coherence between faith and reason, and a consequent integrated view of art and science." What's all that, when it's at home? Give us a clue, mate.

martin paice

There was a displacement of Palestinians by Jews. Everyone knows that there are still British Land Registry Deeds for properties is in what is now Israel but granted during the British Mandate to Arabs/Palestinians. They were displaced. The justifications may be discussed the facts should not be disputed.

Lao Tzu's best friend

"We came to this country which was already populated by Arabs, and we are establishing a Hebrew, that is, a Jewish state here. Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you, because those geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahalal arose in the place of Malalul; Givat in the place of Jibta; Sarid in the place of Haneifa, and Kfar Yehoshua in the place of Tell Shamon. There is not one place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
--Moshe Dayan, addressing the Technion, Haifa (Haaretz, April 4th, 1969)

C.Gee

Lao Tzu's best friend
October 25th, 2010 10:49pm:

“We came to a region that was inhabited by Arabs, and we set up a Jewish state. In many places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages. You don't even know the names [of the previous Arab villages] and I don't blame you, because those geography books aren't around anymore. Not only the books, the villages aren't around.."

Either you or your source left out the sentence about purchasing land.

Oliver

Is Melanie Phillips, the author of the above post, any relation of the Melanie Phillips who wrote:

"Pope Benedict XVI is one of the most profound thinkers of our time, who has a deep concern for the survival of western civilisation in the face of attack both from within and without."

Here: http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6278114/how-britain-proved-his-point.thtml

I think we should be told.

C.Gee

David Lindsay:

You seem to feel that Israel/Jews have dealt badly with Catholics - singled them out for bombardment in Lebanon and "martial law" in the West Bank. Apparently, the Church has also been sucking up to Zionists and media people without getting anything in return. What were they hoping for ?

In the great scheme of things ("history"), I do not think the Jews or Israel have hurt Catholics as much as the other way round. In the Middle East, Islam has proved to be the most ungrateful object of fawning by Christians over many centuries. True, the fawning was required by Islamic law, so possibly not heartfelt. In modern Bethlehem - and many other places - the various Christians sects have tried to buy relief from intimidation, robbery, torture, eviction, extortion, rape, business boycotts, and murder by fawning on the various Arab Muslims who are subjecting them to misery and claiming Israel is doing it to them. Stockholm syndrome? Why is it that syndrome never applies to Israeli oppressors?

rippon

David Ben-Gurion:

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”

“I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”

(http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion)

Samson

According to Wikipedia, Monsignor Bustros is a member of the International Commission for Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, and of the Standing Conference of American-Middle Eastern Christian and Muslim Religious Leaders.

I can see why he wasn't nominated for the National Council of Christians and Jews as well.

Gerry C

@liz:"I wonder. Is anti-Semitism part of a non-Jew's DNA?" For this goy (and probably quite a few others), no: something to do with my father being involved in the Allied arrival at Bergen-Belsen, perhaps, not to mention a 35-year career teaching Hebrew scripture to Catholic students...

@Wolf Terner: As a Catholic, I spent well over half a lifetime teaching students to understand and respect the beliefs and practices of Judaism. It saddens me that you sneer at and denigrate a central belief of Catholicism without any obvious attempt to understand what it means to us, or indeed what the term 'transsubstantiation' actually means theologically in its derivation from Aristotelian philosophy: it would probably help if you could spell the word correctly! (BTW, the 'crackers' you sneer at are derived from the matzos of Pesach...)

Elaine

To Lao Tzu's best friend: http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=371 (if you are interested in the truth, that is).

TomTom

"This promise was nullified by Christ."

How ? Jesus was a Torah-observant Jew descended from David...he came to uphold The Torah and not to change it

Louis Berk

Is it not ironic, that if the Catholic church expects the be recognised by the Palestinians for their support, that by choosing an argument based on the belief that Jesus was the messiah, that neither Jews nor Muslims believe this to be the case? In fact, for muslims to accept this rather odd form of support and deny the Jews their right to the land of Israel on the basis of rejecting Jesus as the messiah then they would have to go against their own religious beliefs to do so.

Ganpat Ram

Once you claim to be the "Chosen People" you can't really be surprised by what follows. Others will learn the trick and try to "supersede" you. Examples are infectious. The real answer is a measure of humility and humour.

The Arabs, by the way, also fled in 1948 because of the massacre of them by the Jews at Deir Yassin. This is acknowledged by Israeli historians. I sympathise with Israel, but facts are sacred.

Lao Tzu's best friend

The assertion that "many of the area’s Arabs fled the fighting intending to return as victors" is utterly preposterous, as are the claims that there were any serious financial reparations for those expelled by force of arms.

Historical record shows (if the strict pro-Israeli censors on here will allow such a blasphemous debate) that Haganah, the Jewish terror group and the forerunner of the Israel Defense Forces, had clear plans for the permanent expulsion of Palestinians from their land, as formulated in "Plan Dalet" in 1947.

Strange that CAMERA, with all it's partisan bias and dubious rhetoric, has no article to spin the facts on this.

Ganpat Ram

RIPPON:

Many thanks for citing that unsparingly impartial analysis of the Israel-Palestinian issue by David Ben-Gurion, no less.

It is because the Israelis were led by people capable of such objectivity and great heartedness that I sympathise with the cause of Israel. The Arabs, for their part, have been bereft of even the smallest sympathy for the Jewish case.

David Lindsay

Louis Berk, not all Palestinians are Muslims, but I don't know how many times that point has to be made; somehow, it never gets through. And Muslims do believe that Jesus is the Messiah promised to the earlier Prophets, but they differ, with obviously vast ramifications, in their belief that the Paraclete promised by Him in turn was Muhammad rather than the Holy Spirit. They also believe that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus.

C.Gee, you might consider reading a book. You never know what you might learn. And if anyone mentions "Stockholm Syndrome" outside a few very technical contexts, of which this is not one, then you know that they have lost the argument. Those at the sharp end know perfectly well which lot of Europeans who could not tell one end of a camel from the other, and who had no desire to find out, screwed up the age-old Levantine civilisation of Christians, Muslims, Jews and Druze, with Arabic as its lingua franca and with its de facto capital at Damascus. It is no wonder that the PFLP and DFLP were founded by Christians. You didn't know that, did you?

solemnman

Did the world fling it's doors open when the Jews of Europe faced extinction? Shanghai did.They took in 45,000.Japan,of all places, offered to take in 250,000 before it"s pact with Hitler scuppered the deal.Japan seemed to think the Jews had some value .Didn't the rest,more or less, slam their doors and wash their hands .Did the nations in which they were born and of which they were citizens help them or the nazis by gathering the Jews up for disposal? Jews now have a miniscule seat on a vast bus but even that is too much for some people.

Ronnie

I sit in my home, shaking with fear. Waiting for the day when the Picts come to reclaim the land on which it sits.

General Zod

‘We Christians cannot speak of the “promised land” as an exclusive right for a privileged Jewish people. This promise was nullified by Christ. There is no longer a chosen people – all men and women of all countries have become the chosen people. Even if the head of the Israeli state is Jewish, the future is based on democracy. The Palestinian refugees will eventually come back and this problem will have to be solved,’

is not remotely the same as

"But above all, it is a resurrection of the ancient Christian calumny that the Jews are damned for all time as cosmic exiles on account of their refusal to accept the divinity of Christ. It is therefore a profoundly anti-Jewish statement. Is this merely a rogue outburst by a partisan bishop? If so, the Vatican must immediately distance itself from these remarks. If it does not, it would seem that the Vatican has taken a giant step backwards into a darker age."

Nonsensical hyperbole, as usual.

C.Gee

David Lindsay:

Are you saying the PFLP and DFLP are Christian groups and not militantly secular and Marxist ? Are you trying to find some muscular Christianity left in the Middle East? What happened to the Maronite Phalangists? Who exactly do you want them to fight? Muslims or Jews? Are saying that there can be an ecumenical rapprochement between Islam and Catholicism because they are both totalitarian? Are you saying the British knew the ends of a camel better than the French? Are you saying anything at all in answer to anyone?

You forgot to add in your defense (?) of Islam that it thinks Mary is the sister of Moses. But what are getting at with your rehearsal of the Islamic garbled view of Christianity? Are saying that there can be an ecumenical rapprochement between Islam and Catholicism because they are both totalitarian?

And what about an elucidation of the "coherence between faith and reason".

The book you read must have been bumper fun.

C.Gee

rippon:

Your first quote was spoken in 1938, according to Simha Flapan. I938 was abuzz with the Partition plan. Do you have the entire speech?

The second quote was spoken in 1956. You omitted the final sentences:

"They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out."

I add those lines here, lest anyone reading your incomplete quote should think that Ben-Gurion was doing anything other than explaining the strength of the Arab feeling against Jews and the need to defend Israel against it. He most certainly was not ceding wrong-doing in the establishment of the state of Israel.

C.Gee

Lao Tzu's best friend
October 26th, 2010 10:56am:

1. Your assertion that the assertion is preposterous is proposterous.
2. Read Plan D. Read Benny Morris: "Plan D was not a political blueprint for the expulsion of Palestine's Arabs: it was governed by military considerations and was geared to achieving military ends."
3. The above quote was from a CAMERA article.
4. Do you really think - like rippon - that scattering anti-Israel poison pellets here, available by the gross from the internet, will accomplish anything?
5. What sort of compulsion is gripping you?
6. Is this an historical record?

David Lindsay

C.Gee, I'm saying that the PFLP and the DFLP were founded by Palestinian Christians, which is a fact. At least one of those founders certainly had a Greek Orthodox funeral, so his undeniable Marxist tendencies cannot really have been the whole story about him.

On militantly secular and Marxist terrorists ... well, the less said about that by Zionists, the better for you, wouldn't you say? At least, for all their other faults, neither the PFLP nor the DFLP has ever photographed the hanging of teenage British conscripts with barbed wire in the cause of militantly secular and Marxist terrorists.

We have yet, I see, to move on to the fact that Judaism defines itself against Christianity. That was how the religion now known as Judaism ever started: as a conscious reaction against Christianity, always expressing itself vigorously as such. Christianity must respond in kind.

A.

C. Gee
"Sticking your bum to God five times a day as part of a whole choreographed chorus line is fun..." - and all the rest of it.

The faithful of any religion and their rituals can look absurd to outsiders. It appears that it is permitted here to mock Muslims more than those of other faiths. Why is that? Melanie Phillips is always so careful to make clear that it is Islamism she abhors, not Islam.

A.

C.Gee
October 26th, 2010 6:24pm
"1. Your assertion that the assertion is preposterous is preposterous."

Terribly witty, as we have come to expect, but I'm not clear whether you consider the statement that "many of the area’s Arabs fled the fighting intending to return as victors" to be anything other than preposterous.

"2. Read Plan D. Read Benny Morris: "Plan D was not a political blueprint for the expulsion of Palestine's Arabs: it was governed by military considerations and was geared to achieving military ends.""

I'm not clear whether you intend us to accept the conclusion Benny Morris chose to draw as more authoritative than the evidence he provided.

I'm also not clear whether you consider it impossible for a plan to have a military objective and still encompass the expulsion of civilians.

I take it points 3-6 were just idle rhetorical flourishes.

rippon

C.Gee,

Is it your contention that by not including those two sentences (from Ben-Gurion), which you have given, the meaning/significance of what I did include is changed?

If so, you are plainly wrong and simply grasping at straws in your desperation to obfuscate such damning truths about Israel.

Btw, I am sure that, as you say, Ben-Gurion was not ceding any “wrong-doing” in the establishment of Israel; but that adds nothing to the debate because it is a truism. I suspect that Hitler never ceded in any moral wrong-doing; that is for others and history to judge, and, in making that judgement, it is invaluable to know how Hitler justified his ‘right-doing’ (to give us an insight into his delusions); and Hitler’s justifications may mitigate or exacerbate his guilt in our eyes.

The same applies to Bush-Blair and the holocaust they unleashed on Iraq. They have never ceded any wrong-doing. That is for us to judge, and it helps us to make that judgement by knowing, for example, what they themselves have to say on the matter. (For example, the vacuous “right thing to do” aspect of Blair’s justification will tend to incriminate him more.)

I have quoted Ben-Gurion. You characterise my action as “scattering anti-Israel poison pellets”. It follows that Ben-Gurion’s words, in your eyes, must incriminate Israel. – We are in agreement!

You suggest that my actions cannot achieve anything. Again, you are wrong. Quoting what important people say on important matters is a crucial part of understanding a situation.

You say that Plan D was not a blueprint for expelling people. Again, you are wrong (clearly a habit of yours). Read Ilan Pappe, ‘The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine’, where many of his sources are Israeli military records.

You have asked “What sort of compulsion is gripping you?” of someone else, but I will answer that question anyway. I am gripped by Israel’s persistent crimes, e.g. Gaza massacre, Mavi Marmara massacre, colonisation, land theft, water theft, siege of Palestinian economy, etc. etc., which it keeps getting away with (basically because it still suits the US not to rein in its rottweiler – God help the colonists if they ever fall out of favour with the godfather); and I feel a degree of compulsion to say something about that massive injustice.

Actually, to be fair, you are not entirely wrong all the time:
You did (correctly) highlight that Ben-Gurion enunciated clearly the very rational reasons the Palestinians have for feeling strongly anti-Israel. Thus, you have provided an important corrective to Melanie Phillips, who basically believes the Palestinians’ anger all comes down to anti-Semitism and has nothing to do with land, water and human rights (or ‘human rights’, as she likes to mock the concept). Ben-Gurion clearly understands the roots of the conflict even if passionate Israel-apologists don’t (or pretend they don’t).

AY

Like your style guys.
Heavy delirium.

Although, what else to expect on the theme of religion.

Truthtriumphs

Rippon @ 9.26 Oct. 26.
Palestinian anti-semitism is inculcated in infancy.
Yours, however, is in your DNA.

Your real anger is not because
of Israel's so-called "crimes",
but because the Jews, at long last after 2,000 years, refuse to be anyone's cannon fodder, and because Israel does what every other nation on earth does, namely, defend itself against those who would annihilate it.
To compound your annoyance, despite BDS and all efforts to destroy and delegitimise it, it is a resounding success story, and the economy is booming, as is the economy of the West Bank which is reaping the benefits of being its neighbour.
Enjoy!

Truthtriumphs

Rippon.
Why on earth would anyone want to read anything by Ilan Pappe, considering he is a self-confessed liar?
He said that the facts don't matter when it comes to the realisation of the principles that he holds dear.
Oh, and btw, your a bit behind the times, aren't you, because Benny Morris---- a real historian--- said categorically that there never was a plan Dalet?
Sorry, old chap.

Truthtriumphs

David lindsay @ 7.33pm.

You seem to be a bit delusional.
It was the British who hanged teenage boys, those unfortunates who sutrvived the concentration camps, only to be butchered for the crime of wanting a home of their own.

I've read much revisionist rubbish in my time, but NEVER that Judaism followed on from Christianity.
You're quite mad.

Mustapha Bunn

"truthtriumphs" ...unfortunately Hagannah,Stern and the rest weren't averse to hanging people from trees either.

Ganpat Ram

RIPPON:

So far from being a massive injustice, the Palestinian affair is really utterly trivial and is only taken so seriously because Arabs control so much of the West's oil supplies.

The Arabs at most lost about one half of one per cent of all their vast lands, unbelievably rich in oil resources. What the Jews got was largely desert, a [pitiful pice of land the size of Wales. If the Arabs were sensible they would have shrugged off the loss, made peace with Israel, and got on with resettling the palestinians with briother Arabs a few miles down the road. They would have used their oil treasure to educate their population and industrialise, so that in a decade or two Israel would be no more than a tiny land known to occasionally win the Eurovision song contest.

Instead the Arabs made a mountain out of a molehill.

In contrast, here is a real serious historical crime: in 1971 the Muslim Pakistani Army wiped out as many as two and a half MILLION Hindus in Bangladesh.

phil

Truthtriumphs
October 27th, 2010 12:19am You have it exactly right the man is barmy and is a waste of our time and thoughts ,crazy ideas and a wish to harm us -he only can achieve that by answering him.The same applies to the nutcase known as rippon whose only contributions are ever to denigrate Israel,I have suggested on a number of occasions that she should not be given any response ,it is not as if we will ever convince her of the truth ,why?because she does not want to know it. Enough now with the meshugganahs as my dear old Mum used to say ,let them talk amongst themselves ,we have better things to do -shalom

JJ PRASCH

The theologically abject nature of this and other Roman Catholic positions regarding Israel, inclusive of the false doctrine of Replacement theology, is a mere reflection of the over all abject doctrinal theology of Roman Catholicism in general.

From its inquisiions to its Rat Route protection of Nazi war criminals it has always had an an anti Jewish ethos just as it has always had a trasdition of persecution of scripturally based Christians.

From its global pedophilia to its involvement in banking corruption such the Ambrosiano scandal, The Vatican is synonamous with moral bankrupcy.

Roman Catholicism should not be confused with Christianity. It is a harlot church and a false religion merel;y constituted of a pseudo christianisation of the pontifical pantheistic religions of pagan Rome.

God Bless Israel and God save Jewish and Roman Catholic People in The Name of Jesus/ YESHUA.

David Lindsay

Truthtriumphs, you have cleraly never read the Talmud, then. Or how the Jewish Canon came to be defined. For a start.

Augustus

JJ Prasch - You are entirely correct. The Jews who received and recognized Yeshua as the Son of God were the ones amongst
all the population who went on to lead the continuation of Israel, as God had determined.
Read Matthew 5:17 where Jesus makes it clear that no part of the Torah will be changed, and that the Torah should be studied and its laws kept ("Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the Prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose"). These Jews, and subsequently non-Jews, were unified in Yeshua, and lived by the Torah (see Acts).

Andre (Canada)

David Lindsay...you almost made sense until you wrote "We have yet, I see, to move on to the fact that Judaism defines itself against Christianity. That was how the religion now known as Judaism ever started: as a conscious reaction against Christianity, always expressing itself vigorously as such. Christianity must respond in kind."
Are you serious????
Judaism predates Christinanity by about 1300 years! The Torah is over 3300 years old.
You do know that Christ was an observant Jew, right?
Oy, I think David just fainted!

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Rippon: I guess the fact that the Palestinian Arabs' leader, the Grand Mufti, was the keenest supporter of Hitler's Final Solution relegates anything you ( or Chomsky and Finkelstein) wish us to believe of Ben Gurion, mere liberal puffery by comparison.

The Palestinians - via their leadership - supported mass genocide. The greatest crime in recorded history. Hard one to beat, i think

Gerald Gotzen

This article is dynamic! Thank God
for Melanie Phillips and the
Spectator who have the insight of what is really happening in the religious world; and the courage to publish. There is a
climate of fear and a conspiracy of silence in the Christian press to tell the truth. God's
everlasting covenant with Israel
is still valid! Joseph Pulitzer,
writer and editor from the USA,
had this saying on his desk:
"To comfort the afflicted, and the afflict the comfortable".
That applies to the Spectator.
My respect and the admiration!

Miranda Rose Smith

He can't accuse Israel of occupying Palestinian lands and then deny that Jordan is Palestine. From 1948 to 1967, when Israel went in, in PURE, OPEN AND SHUT SELF-DEFENCE, AFTER JORDAN ATTACKED IT, that land belonged to JORDAN, and nobody said a word about an autonomous homeland for the Palestinian people. (As recently as the Mandatory Period, of course, hundreds of thousands of JEWS were Palestinians.)
I can't read about a CHRISTIAN spewing this sort of vomit and not feel like Shakespeare's Margaret of Anjou: "Why strewst thou sugar on that bottled spider/ Whose deadly web ensnareth thee about?" Doesn't he know how the Moslems treat CHRISTIANS? How they will treat HIM, given half a chance?
Does the Vatican have anything to do with this man? Doesn't Greek Melkite mean Greek Orthodox?
Just by the way, Ms. Phillips, MOST of the Arabs who left Israel in 1948 left volumtarily, figuring that Israel would be defeated in a week and they could come back and loot Jewish property. Others WERE expelled. Others stayed, and their descendants thrive and flourish, vote, sit in the Knesset, attend universities.

Terence Scarborough

Once again Melanie Phillips has done an excellent job in making the issues clear, and I am grateful that The Spectator has published it.

The Jews were given the land of Israel in perpetuity. (As Jacob Prasch has said: How can an indigenous people be accused of occupying their land?) Under the Balfour Declaration they were allocated an area that now includes Jordan. Britain was given the job of administering this, reneged on the allocation and gave two thirds of the area to Jordan. No one murmured about this. In 1948 Jordan annexed Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem (the West Bank). Occupied territories? Wasn't it Arabs occupying Jewish land? Israel gained it back again in 1967 and now she vilified for it and is under pressure to hand it(her land)back again. Something is not right here!

wonderer

Miranda Rose Smith, I had the same question as you about the relationship betweeen the churches. According to Wiki, the Melkite Greek Church is in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church and has been since it split from the Orthodox in the 18th century: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melkite_Greek_Catholic_Eparchy_of_Newton

lauriemacdonell-sanchez

Haven't read the other comments, but Melkite Archbishop Bustros's ugly & admittedly supersessionistic remarks are political rant with the thinnest veneer of specious theology. They can only foment further dissension, alienation & worsening of the Israeli-Palestinian situation, which is rife with inequities on both sides, the worst of which is terror groups pretending to champion the Palestinian people's cause. It makes me wonder if Bustros went beyond what had actually been vetted by the Vatican prior to his making his public statement. Not surprising, though--since around the first half of the 1st millennium A.D., the Latin & Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church have been @ odds, with not much relief in sight so far. Many will recall the intransigent, un-Christian rebuffs by the Orthodox Catholic Patriarchates of John Paul II's efforts at rapprochement. Bustros chose to put his regional prejudices foremost & made a very poor showing for the Church at large. His attitude defies everything the Vatican has been espousing for decades in order to make up for historical wrongs, in the West as well as the East, with regard to relations between Christians & Jews. Roman Catholicism's real attractions are its philosophy & tenets for leading truly Christ-like lives in an always difficult world, rather than making the world a harder place to live in.

charles soper

Sorry for a lengthy post, I support Israel, but I also want to be crystal clear and avoid a dangerous conflation of ideas.

Many, many Christian Zionists have believed something very close to what Melanie here describes as a calumny, 'that, because of their denial of the divinity of Christ, the Jews have forfeited God’s promises to them which have been transferred to Christians.'
In some ways this 'calumny' is explicit NT teaching, and that won't go away. The razor sharp distinction between the supercession of anti-Semites like this Roman Bishop or say Stephen Sizer on one hand and the majority of historic Protestant Christian Zionists like Henri Dunant, Spurgeon, Ryle, Bonar, the Puritans etc on the other (though there are exceptions, expecially among modern dispensationalists) is that there is a glorious and solid hope for national Israel in the future as a Jewish state - but we believe that hope lies wholly in the Jewish Messiah - nowhere else. The New Testament is a newly mediated and newly ratified covenant - and the mediation of the Levitical testament has been rendered obsolete for Jews first and by implication for Gentiles too - that is Christian orthodoxy. The distinction between practical haters and lovers of Israel, between highminded antagonists and praying and concerned supporters, lies in how the NT is perceived to relate to the focus of the covenant with Abraham, which was the grant of the land (Gen.15.8+, Ps.105.9-11). Upon this unmediated land promise, the NT confesses itself to be founded (Gal.3.16-7) and by which the Abrahamic, but not the Sinaitic covenant (mediated by flawed mediators, Ex.4.14, Deut.9.20, 34.4) is fully ratified (Heb.6.13-18, Gal.4.24, Heb. 8.7-13).

A Christian Zionism that only looks to Israel as a rejuvenated nation is itself as guilty of a kind of idolatry as secular Zionism.

Christian Zionists don't expect non Messianic Jews either to understand or approve this 'supercessionist' element of our position, but please don't ask us to deny our roots either.

It would be more precise to define supercessionism of the objectionable Israel-hating kind as a belief in the abrogation of the land covenant to Isaac's descendants - even Osama bin Laden perceives that.

Michael Zebulon

You are correct, M'lady, in stating that "The Bible was not used to justify the return of Jews to Israel." However, there is no denying that it was indeed God's [Bible-recorded] promises to the Jews that MOTIVATED many of the Christian advocates of Jewish restoration.

What is truly fascinating is the implication behind the assertion that "This promise was nullified by Christ."

What Archbishop Bustros (and others who have taken this view throughout history) is saying is that God doesn't keep His promises.

Astonishing.

Skeptic

>>>>>>>Read Ilan Pappe...

Ilan Pappe is a thoroughly discredited pseudo-scholar. In particular, Benny Morris took him to the task for totally misinterpreting him -- naturally, in order to make the Palestinians look like innocent victims and the Jews to look evil. See:

http://www.meforum.org/897/a-history-of-modern-palestine-one-land-two-peoples

For example (and this is just the first of numerous examples of his distortions; see e.g. http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=108&x_article=1498)

"Read Ilan Pappe about Israel" is a bit like saying "Read the BNP's magazine about immigration" or "Read the flat earth society's bulletin about geography".

Miranda Rose Smith

010 4:43pm
Miranda Rose Smith, I had the same question as you about the relationship betweeen the churches. According to Wiki, the Melkite Greek Church is in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church and has been since it split from the Orthodox in the 18th century: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melkite_Greek_Catholic_Eparchy_of_Newton
Dear Wonderer: Thanks.

P.H.

"But above all, it is a resurrection of the ancient Christian calumny that the Jews are damned for all time as cosmic exiles on account of their refusal to accept the divinity of Christ."

...That's a church/religious calumny (like the blood libel or Crusades) --- it's not Christian/Biblical, as examination of the Scriptures will show. Just ask the apostle Paul...