Jews for Injustice Against Jews

rippon

Here’s another example of the anti-Israel venom that Melanie is talking about:

War Crimes: Israeli government documents show deliberate policy to keep Gazans at near-starvation levels

by Saed Bannoura

Documents whose existence were denied by the Israeli government for over a year have been released after a legal battle led by Israeli human rights group Gisha. The documents reveal a deliberate policy by the Israeli government in which the dietary needs for the population of Gaza are chillingly calculated, and the amounts of food let in by the Israeli government measured to remain just enough to keep the population alive at a near-starvation level. This documents the statement made by a number of Israeli officials that they are "putting the people of Gaza on a diet".

…

Full article here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=21799

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Every nation and every race seems to have a group who whether from self-hatred or a political agenda opposite to the general flow, and Jews are no different. Israel, a democracy has its Left Wing Peace Now, and several other organisations who spend their time causing a nuisance and making themselves a laughing stock amongst most Arabs. Israel, despite what her enemies would like us to believe, has political parties and members of the Knesset determined to destroy the very State. The Diaspora is filled with "Finklers", and Britain is especially 'blessed' with Jews for Justice and other similar organisations, usually filled with intellectual establishment lovies, who make an excellent living from their work, and find the publicity their hatred generates is good for business. The one thing these Jews for Justice will never soil their lily white hands with is condemnation of Muslim atrocities. In Iraq, the Christian community is under ethnic cleansing by the Muslim majority, but not only the BBC has kept this at a low profile, but of course silence from the concerned, compassionate Jews. That Irish death's head female reporter who appears on a regular basis with the BBC is not to be seen, but neither are Stephen Fry nor Miriam Margolyse or any other Israel Bashers. Many of Nazareth's Christian community were driven out by Muslim bullies, but Archbishop Rowan prefers to follow the convenient political line and blame Israel. But this is hardly surprising from a churchman who supports Sharia Law. No wonder his bishops and senior clergy are leaving in hordes to join a church which wishes to remain Christian. It's ironic to think that if Rowan Williams were Jewish, he would be Finkler, and therein lies the tragedy of modern Western civilisation

Truthtriumphs

Rippon.
As usual, lies and yet more lies from your direction.
Have you ever thought that if the Palestinians hadn't responded to the total and unconditional withdrawal of Israel from Gaza, by bombarding civilian areas of Israel with rockets and mortars, there would be complete freedom of movement in and out of Gaza?
The fact is that there is a wealth of evidence to show that Gaza has a much higher standard of living than many other parts of the world---luxury shopping malls, well-stocked food stores, top-notch restaurants etc. etc.
Rippon, have you seen any evidence of the starving masses in Gaza, you know, pictures reminiscent of the Warsaw Ghetto?
I'm sure if such were the case, the news outlets would be only too happy to show them.
All I ever see are pictures of well-built and well-dressed masked men flooding the streets in protest.
And btw, can you account for the 1.23 billion dollars in aid given to UNWRA in this year's budget for the Palestinian "refugees".
If, as you assert, the Gazans are starving, where is this aid money, not to mention vast sums in addition given by the EU, the US, and a myriad aid agencies around the world?

Lisa

Yes, the Gazans don't have access to food. (sarcasm)

http://blog.camera.org/archives/2008/09/lauren_booth_photographed_shop.html

Louis Berk

Rippon, If diet is an issue then I guess the residents of Gaza should have taken more care of the property donated to them by Jewish philanthropists.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/gaza_green.htm

phil

God forbid the the massacre of Jews takes place ,those JEWS FOR JUSTICE WILL FIND OUT THAT THAT THEIR "COMPASSION" WILL NOT SAVE THEM ,they will just be Jews !!

phil

rippon have you ever read "BILLY LIAR"?-YOU DO SEEM TO BE INSPIRED BY HIS LIFE ----
------------
William "Billy" Fisher - Billy is 19, and living with parents Alice and Geoffrey, and his grandmother, Florence Boothroyd. Billy lies compulsively to everyone he comes across, whether it's the claim that his father is a retired naval captain/cobbler, or telling his parents that Arthur's mother has broken her leg. Billy works as a clerk for undertakers Shadrack & Duxbury. He is engaged to two girlfriends, and in love with a third and constantly refers a vague job offer writing scripts in London for "Danny Boon", a comedian.
--------------
Did you get any of your scripts accepted ?

Pot Head

Those self hating young Jews

http://www.youngjewishproud.org/our-disruption-of-netanyahus-speech/

rippon

Such criticism of Israel (the article I reference in my post above) cannot simply be dismissed with the tired ostrich infantile bawl “Lies!”

The article is based on documents from the Israeli government itself, representatives of which are sometimes open about the policy (euphemistically, at least): “putting Gazans on a diet”.

Therefore the “Lies!” screech is an accusation against Israel that its representatives and policy-writers are liars. This substantiates the point that ‘defenders’ of Israel sometimes (often?), unwittingly, undermine rather than support the state.

The same problem (for ‘defenders’ of Israel) often arises, e.g. with Ilan Pappe’s ‘Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine’ – the problem being that that book is largely sourced on Israeli military archives (rather than ‘lies’).

john

Regrettable how Hamas destroyed a sizeable element of the Gaza economy when the Israelis left? You want us to weep? Hamas need to be tried as the war criminals they are. Even if all Jews left Israel, they would still be blamed for the descent into chaos engineered by Hamas. If that's not antisemitism, obviously nothing is. We are talking antisemitism here.

Derek Pasquill

Whenever self-hating Jews come up, I inevitably think about Baldrick from Blackadder, and his cunning plan:

there has to be a perfidious reason for all this Jewish self-loathing - perhaps indeed it is a *cunning* plan to strengthen the resolve of the still-normal Jewish community at large?

Here is one of Baldrick's memorable songs:

Hear the words I sing,
War's a horrid thing,
So I sing sing sing...
...ding-a-ling-a-ling.

phil

rippon
November 10th, 2010 1:14pm ---NOOO---- rippon its the twisting of the truth that is the problem.just like Billy,but anyway I suppose you only provide a little fun here as only your small band of blades etc believe anything you say /The science of neural linguistic therapy recommends sitting in a chair and shouting like hell to unburden oneself ., no doubt you are moving it one step further by writing here ,hope you will feel better soon. btw they also say a good laugh will help too so you are helping others -well done .-----Ilan Papp !! :) who on earth writes your scripts .

pterodactyl

A characteristic of the West including Israel is their extraordinarily large number of self-haters.

The Arab world does not go for self-criticism in the same way. For example, in many Arab countries the rulers keep the oil wealth for themselves and the people are kept poor, but there is no simmering resentment amongst the people to address this. No internet campaigns from their fellow Arabs living abroad to try and change this. They seem to be more concerned with the injustices of the Palestinians than with their own, even when those Palestinians have more food and comforts than they themselves do, courtesy of the West. Very odd.

Some might say Arabs are too fearful of their rulers to object, but I get the impression that even those living in the West who might well be fearful do not seem angry or resentful about being constrained in this way. Instead they send their children to the mosque every night after school.

Miranda Rose Smith

phil
November 10th, 2010 9:12am
God forbid the the massacre of Jews takes place ,those JEWS FOR JUSTICE WILL FIND OUT THAT THAT THEIR "COMPASSION" WILL NOT SAVE THEM ,they will just be Jews !!

True.

rippon

Phil (November 10th, 2010 2:22pm),

It would be good if you wrote something with some substance for a change. (It would also be good if you could improve your grammar and punctuation.)

Fatuous lines such as “who on earth writes your scripts” might be amusing, but they betray an inability to posit counter-arguments.

The people who ‘write my scripts’, btw, are the people I quote. The only argument from +me+, in essence, is:
This is what many scholars, NGOs and activists say – it all sounds well-sourced, evidence-based and rational, so what’s the counter-argument?

It is wholly unconvincing simply to bleat “Lies!” all the time. Equally unconvincing is the persistent retreat to the infantile canard that the world is gripped by Jew-hatred (which is the equivalent of the AliG parody, ‘Is it ‘cos I is black!?’).

Indeed, people ought to be embarrassed by the ‘worldwide Jew hatred’ theory because the very same people (rightly) pour scorn on the analogous ‘worldwide Jewish conspiracy’ theory.

(One compelling fact of life that undermines the ‘worldwide Jew-hatred’ theory is that many Jews live very happily, safely and equally in Iran – in stark contrast to Arabs in Israel and Palestinians in the OPT.)

Now, in your last post, you wrote one thing that contained the hint of a smidgen of substance: you said that the people I quote were indulging in “the twisting of the truth”. That hints at some substance to your argument because everyone knows that it is possible to quote selectively and/or de-contextualise ‘facts’.

If possible, then, it would be good if you could point out +how+ they do that (so that I could then go back and look again at what I have read with a better-informed perspective).

All the signs, though, are that you can’t, and that’s why you keep prattling along bizarre tangents, e.g. “Billy Liar”, “neural linguistic therapy”, “unburden oneself”, “feel better soon”, “good laugh”, which, like I say, are amusing but completely without substance.

phil

rippon
November 10th, 2010 4:04pm If it helps you ,I write to many others here and on the wall ,answering their views that may or not correspond with mine and usually very politely.I do make an exception for you and one or two others because you come here to cause upset ,you quote liars ,do you not know that?So I do not feel like debating anything with you ,many here have wasted their time doing that -I have told you what I think ,so as they used to say in the playground "put it in your pipe and smoke it " and if you do not like my grammar the same applies ,the content is great !-You can put up my banner wherever you march -PG -PEACE TO ARABS AND JEWS .

Broadwood

Rippon, how's about this for substance - proof positive that your allegations of an Israeli plot to starve Palestinians is sheer propaganda - according to the Economist, Gazans have a world-class weight problem -
http://www.economist.com/node/8846631?story_id=8846631

And if you'd bother to get beyond the blatantly biased headline in your source, you'd see the Israeli documents paint a very different picture, the quotas are clearly based on existing consumption, not minimal nutritional levels. In fact, looking at them objectively, you could almost believe they were checking how much people needed to make sure they got enough food ..... just not enough concrete to make more rocket launchers.

*Sigh*

rippon

Thanks, Broadwood (November 10th, 2010 5:20pm).

You are debating the issue, which is what people +ought+ to do.

rippon

Don’t know what to make of those Economist international obesity rankings, Broadwood.

- because, for example, this source gives a radically different picture (e.g. putting America way out in front):

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity

C.Gee

rippon:

"Indeed, people ought to be embarrassed by the ‘worldwide Jew hatred’ theory because the very same people (rightly) pour scorn on the analogous ‘worldwide Jewish conspiracy’ theory."

Let me understand this. You are saying that if one believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (cited as shorthand for international Jewish conspiracy theories which have had currency throughout the world, over centuries) to be a lie, then one must also believe that international antisemitism being directed at Jews collectively in Israel is a lie?

So Jews (mostly) are conspiring to lie about global antisemitism - no doubt in an attempt to embarrass those who want to thwart the Jewish desire to control first the Middle East, then the world.

To use the fact that worldwide Jewish conspiracies are antisemitic myths to suggest that worldwide antisemitism is a similar myth put about by conspiring Jews is so irrational, it can only be explained by someone suffering deeply from a mental disease called antisemitism. Taken with the other symptom of this disease - an obsessive compulsion to show Israel to be immoral - the diagnosis in your case is not difficult.

At some point it may occur to you that your reflexive revulsion at Israel’s policies of self-defense is because you see any policy of the Jewish State as being by definition the outcome of Jewish conspiracy: Jews nefariously planning, Jews nefariously controlling, Jews huddling in a parliament and behind committee room doors, plotting to keep themselves dominating others by murder, starvation and theft. In short, your revulsion is conditioned by your Protocols view of Jews. Have you thought about taking a job in the UN - the successor to the Tsarist forgers and now at work on a sequel to the Protocols - the “Protocols of the Zionists.”

Truthtriumphs

Rippon.
Sorry you don't like the word "lies", but that is an accurate description of your statements.
The number of trucks bringing food and all manner of supplies across the border from Israel to Gaza is and has always been accurately documented, and the head of UNWRA himself, at the time of Cast lead, said that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza--- he should know.
Yes, certain luxury foods such as some chocolate have not been allowed to be imported from Israel, and so what?
What about the border with Egypt?
You have not answered my question as to what has happened to the billions of dollars earmarked for aid for the Gazans?
They receive enough per capita to house and feed each of them for the rest of their lives in super luxury, unlike the genuine starving masses in Africa.
As to your quotes from Israeli government sources, you take us for idiots. We all know that with a bit of judicious editing, you can make them mean what you want them to mean.
That's the oldest trick in the world.
Please don't mention Ilan Pappe again and hope to be taken seriously.
The man is a self-confessed liar, who has admitted that the truth doesn't matter in pursuit of the desired result.
Do tell us whether you display the same concern for the genuinely starving masses in Africa and the brutalised, tortured civilians in the Sudan, or is it, as we all know, just bashing the Jews that is your obsession?

wonderer

Rippon

If the Gazans are short of food, which is debateable judging by some of the photographic evidence seen in this blog, why can't they use some of the substantial financial support they get from the international community to rebuild the market gardening industry the Israelis left behind and they (the Gazans) immediately destroyed. Why can't they import other food via Egypt? If they are short of electricity, why can't that come from Egypt?

With their splendid coastline, can't they start a tourist industry? I concede they might just have to stop rocket attacks on Israel first.

A.

C.Gee
November 10th, 2010 8:23pm
By the standards of evidence and inference you pretend to apply to others, your final paragraph follows from nothing in your previous paragraphs. Your penultimate paragraph also goes astray when, from the fault you correctly identify in Rippon's remarks, you infer that the only possible explanation is anti-semitism. This is not warranted by anything Rippon has said.

I suspect that rather than clarify your reasoning you will announce, as you have on numerous previous occasions, that the discussion now wearies you and that you will take no further questions. If indeed you are willing to condescend to only brief interventions here, could you at least make them more cogent.

rippon

Thanks to everyone here who has gone to the trouble of attempting to rebut the arguments I have posited (either by myself or by citing/quoting others).

Given that we disagree so starkly, it’s actually quite considerate of you to take me seriously enough even to bother replying at all.

Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that I cannot afford the time to set you all right (yet again) because it’s becoming too difficult to keep up with my homework (Open University) at the same time. Debating online (especially here) is stimulating, but it’s a luxury I will have to forgo for now.

Adam B.

rippon, why should Israel give Gaza...well, anything? Gaza is governed by a terrorist entity which openly advocates the extermination of every Jew on earth. It rules Gaza with an iron fist, and political prisoners are routinely tortured and killed. Women's rights are being increasingly curtailed, and as for being homosexual or Christian...forget it.

As it stands, Israel provides hundreds of thousands of tonnes of food and supplies to this entity intent on its destruction, and provides power (even though Hamas occasionally bombs the power plant inside Israel which is providing its own power).

Israel, then operates a partial blockade. Egypt, for its part, operates a TOTAL blockade. It gives its Arab brethren in Gaza precisely...nothing. Zip. Nada.

Hamas fires rockets into Israel - not Egypt.

In my view, Israel is far too generous to Gaza, which is probably the most misrepresented place on earth. there is no starvation - unlike sub-Saharan Africa. yet the Palestinians receive more aid per capita than anyone else on earth - despite the need not being nearly as great. Yet Israel is expected to provide for its enemies - akin to Britain sending supplies to Germany in WW2.

Funny old world.

C.Gee

A:

I got your goat , it seems. And you won't get it back. Not even when you trap me into not answering questions by not asking any.

You may retrieve your gauntlets from Lost Property. You might find your marbles there too.

Brian Fink

How right Melanie is, the blood libel was invented in 12th century England- by a converted Jew, one Theobald of Cambridge. Throughout Jewish history there has been a recurring thread of this self-hatred, they truly believe that they won't be the object of anti-Semitism because they join in with it. Alas they'll just be last into the gas chambers.

Truthtriumphs

Rippon et al.
My last post hasn't appeared so I'll try again.

It's a good rule of thumb that people try to enter decent, law-abiding countries, and flee from tyrannies.
That's why the terrorised and terrified Darfurians (those who can escape)
treck more than 1000 miles to seek refuge in Israel, even though the Egyptians use them as target practice at the border. They spurn all the Arab/Muslim countries as refuge, with good reason---amazing how well-informed they are!
Indeed, Israel has a problem with illegal immigration from every part of the world.
If Israel persecutes its Arab minority, why is it that there was a revolt in some Arab villages that they were to come under the Palestinian jurisdiction in any future settlement?
They said they prefer the rule of law in Israel to the lawlessness of the PA.
Why don't you do Israel a favour and tell those desperate to enter, what a terrible place Israel is, and dissuade them from entering?

As to Ilan Pappe's "ethnic cleansing", that's something that the Jews fail miserably at.
When people are "cleansed", there are fewer of them as time goes on, but under Jewish jurisdiction, the numbers, for example, in the WB, have quadrupled since 1967. The numbers are on record.
The only ethnic cleansing that has occurred is by the Muslims against Christian Arabs under their jurisdiction in the territories, and in every Arab country--- last week's massacre in an Iraqi Catholic church is a good example.

Harold

C. Gee,

The first part of your comment of November 10th, 2010 8:23pm shows again that you can do reasoned argument.

It is a pity you took the absence of ? in A's comment as a pretext not to explain why you lapsed into non sequiturs and abuse. What is your purpose - to stifle debate?

Arnold Levan

When Moses our Master killed an Egyptian, who was abusing our people. Who betrayed him? Another Hebrew. Enough said

just Louise

Amazingly, a senior academic teaching Jewish Studies (of all things) at a university in the UK is an acivist in Friends of Al Aqsa and wants Israel dismantled in favour of a single state! Incredible and horrifying.

C.Gee

Harold:

My purpose is to become a goatherd. Thank you for your little billy.

wonderer

Just Louise, if you know the academic in question, perhaps you could draw his attention to the survey conducted recently by the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung's Ramallah branch and mentioned in one of Melanie's recent blogs:
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2010/p37e.html .

If he scrolls down to Question 35-3, he will find that over 70% of Palestinians in both the WB and Gaza are opposed to the single state "solution", though typically of many modern academics, he will no doubt brush this aside.

Harold

C.Gee
November 11th, 2010 6:11pm
You contribute hateful abuse just to rile people? It gives you a purpose in life?

Derek BLADES

As Rippon and other persons og good sense have noted, several contributors to this site use the words "liars" and "lies" as general terms of abuse.

A lie occurs when someone believes Y to be true but claims that X is true with the deliberate intention of misleading others. Most of the discussion on this site is about the interpretation of events and "lies" and "liar" are simply not relevant. If I think that Cast Lead was an absurdly disporoportionate response to Hamas’ rocket attacks while someone else thinks it was a justifiable act of self defense, neither of us is telling a lie. I am obviously right and the other chap is just as obviously wrong. But neither of us is a liar.

Nothing in Rippon's original informative contribution justifies the charge that he is a liar. Rational debate is only possible if people use words correctly. Let’s clean up our act please.

Derek BLADES

Pterodactyl says that “A characteristic of the West including Israel is their extraordinarily large number of self-haters.”

I expect Pterodactyl meant to use a less emotive term like “self-criticisers” because he goes on to say “The Arab world does not go for self-criticism in the same way.”

Yes Pterodactyl. How very true. You have, no doubt accidentally, hit upon an important truth. The Western World’s predilection for questioning received wisdom and our freedom to do so are the reasons why Western civilisation is the wonderful thing that we behold today. Without self criticisers we might still be pterodactyls.

phil

Derek BLADES
November 12th, 2010 4:45am -WOULD YOU EVEN AGREE THAT ONE WHO DELIBERATELY DECEIVES IS A LIAR .Ilan papp agrees does he not? that he tells lies ,and yet you think rippon does not when she quotes him .MOST of us here understand who you support that is not the problem in dealing with you ,that problem is the obvious venom which leaks violently onto our pages ,in direct contrast to those of us who support Israel ,yet bear no hatred to the Palestinians ,just total frustration with their "politicians"and fellow travellers such as yourself-We desire peace and justice for all ,can we assume the same about you and rippon -I am far from convinced !!

Si, N

Phil, where does 'Ilan papp agrees does he not? that he tells lies'?

Please point to the source of your claim. There's a good chap.

Si, N

Truthtriumphs talks of the 'total and unconditional withdrawal of Israel from Gaza'. But he fails to note that Israel continued to control Gaza's borders (land and sea) and airspace. Also, he ignores the bombarding of civilian areas of Gaza with rockets, missiles, napalm (of a sort) and God knows what other filthy weapons it has in its ever expanding armoury.

Now he may not be lying - but he sure as heck is misrepresenting the situation.

Discuss.

Wm. H.

Where does Ilan Pappe say that he is a liar?

C.Gee

Antisemitism - the hatred that dares not speak its name. Or rather, the hatred that dares its victims to speak its name, so that the antisemite may gasp and reel at the abuse, and then claim courage for overcoming Jewish plots to stifle him when he rallies sufficiently to produce the next round of anti-Jewish tropes.

Stan

With regard to Ilan Pappe and his attitude to facts and the truth, here are some sources

There is no historian in the world who is objective. I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what's happened. ("An Interview of Ilan Pappé," Baudouin Loos, Le Soir [Bruxelles],Nov. 29, 1999)

I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings...(Ibid)

Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers. (Ibid)

The debate between us is on one level between historians who believe they are purely objective reconstructers of the past, like [Benny] Morris, and those who claim that they are subjective human beings striving to tell their own version of the past, like myself. (“Benny Morris’s Lies About My Book,” Ilan Pappé, Response to Morris’ critique of Pappé’s book, “A History of Palestine” published in the New Republic, March 22, 2004, History News Network, April 5, 2004)

[Historical] Narratives... when written by historians involved deeply in the subject matter they write about, such as in the case of Israeli historians who write about the Palestine conflict, is motivated also... by a deep involvement and a wish to make a point. This point is called ideology or politics. (Ibid)

Yes, I use Palestinian sources for the Intifada: they seem to me to be more reliable, I admit. (Ibid)

C.Gee

Si, N and Wm. H:

There is no historian in the world who is objective. I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what's happened. ("An Interview of Ilan Pappé," Baudouin Loos, Le Soir [Bruxelles],Nov. 29, 1999)
I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings...(Ibid)
Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers. (Ibid)
The debate between us is on one level between historians who believe they are purely objective reconstructers of the past, like [Benny] Morris, and those who claim that they are subjective human beings striving to tell their own version of the past, like myself. (“Benny Morris’s Lies About My Book,” Ilan Pappé, Response to Morris’ critique of Pappé’s book, “A History of Palestine” published in the New Republic, March 22, 2004, History News Network, April 5, 2004)
[Historical] Narratives... when written by historians involved deeply in the subject matter they write about, such as in the case of Israeli historians who write about the Palestine conflict, is motivated also... by a deep involvement and a wish to make a point. This point is called ideology or politics. (Ibid)
Yes, I use Palestinian sources for the Intifada: they seem to me to be more reliable, I admit. (Ibid)

- A handy list of Pappe confessions supplied by camera.org.

Obviously, you have not read Pappe, or you would know that he thinks the truth is a form of colonial oppression, only combated by "narrative" (and home-made rockets). This is the theoretical bedrock of his history.

Wm. H.

Stan
November 13th, 2010 6:13am
It was alleged was that Pappe admitted that he is a liar. What you have quoted is the sort of thing that is common in any discussion of method among historians. The question remains: where did Pappe admit that he is a liar?

Wm. H.

I note that at least one other has attempted to parry the question with the same quotes (from Camera, that fine exemplar of truth-telling). This one says elsewhere that he only comments to rile people, so I won't respond, other than to point out that, "he (Pappe) thinks the truth is a form of colonial oppression, only combated by "narrative" (and home-made rockets)" is a grotesque travesty which serves only to confirm that the contribution is not serious.

C.Gee

The "method" of the new historians is to ignore facts that show their narrative - propaganda - to be the whopper it is. They find theoretical support for this in the Marx-derived ideology of anti-orientalism. This intellectual adventure is quite explicitly about making truth relative and promoting truthiness for political ends. Pappe is clear that truth-telling is not what he is about or what he thinks history is about. He has not uttered the phrase "I am a liar" ( a hoary old self-contradiction, the subject of brain-teasers in Philosophy 101, doubtless known to Pappe, an “academic”, after all), but he is proudly, deliberately, and openly a professional fabricator. Means justify ends.

Anti-orientalism is parallel to antisemitism: it does for Western culture (including history) what antisemitism does for Jews: deligitimises in order to silence and eliminate. Just because, they argue, we anti-orientalists and antisemites indulge in truthy porkers about the West and Jews (Israel being a convenient nexus for both), does not mean that the West and Jews are not evil, intrinsically, or on a plane above or below or sideways to reality, which is merely a construct, after all.

"Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not against you", has been neatly flipped by the antisemite: "Just because I'm a psychopath, doesn't meant I'm mad to want to kill you."

Derek BLADES

rippon,November 10th, writes "Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that I cannot afford the time to set you all right (yet again) because it’s becoming too difficult to keep up with my homework (Open University) at the same time. "

I know I speak for many in wishing Rippon well on the Open University front while much regretting that there will be one less voice of sanity on this blogsite. The good news is that Si N has returned. Welcome back.

Si, N

Still waiting for Phil to point to where it is that Mr. Pappe agrees that he (Pappe) lies. Comical to see Stan and C. Gee each reproducing Camera Ready Anthology of Pappe Smears (CRAPS). Typically, C.Gee glosses the true purpose of Pappe’s history. As Pappe says:

‘I had a different point to make: I condemned the uprooting of the Palestinians and the violence inflicted on them, as well as the de-Arabization of Jews who came from Arab countries to Israel, the imposition of military rule on Palestinians in Israel before 1967 and the de-facto Apartheid policies put in place after 1967. I also cry out against the callous Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. I do it not only as a human being, but also as a Jew, who feels appalled that such crimes can be committed by Jews after the holocaust. I studied history to find out why it happened and gave answers through analyzing Zionist ideology, the historical colonialist context in which Zionism emerged and so on’…

…that’s why it’s necessary for Camera and its attendant ciphers to smear Pappe.

Pathetic

Si, N

Yes, all the best to you Rippon and thank you Derek

Wm. H.

Stan,
The allegation is that Ilan Pappe admits he lies. The evidence? So far, we have been given quotes selected and extracted by the neutral Camera which do not support the allegation. And we have been invited into an occult or metaphysical fog where a nexus between anti-semitism and anti-orientalism (?) combines somehow with a basic misunderstanding of the liar's paradox to show that of course Pappe doesn't admit he lies (i.e. the allegation is false) but he lies nevertheless (in plain English, we don't agree with him). Can you offer anything better?

Rippon has been called an anti-semite for condemning the Protocols. Rippon has been called a liar for citing a historian we disagree with. This is shabby.

Wm. H.

Stan,
I'm sorry, my aim is off. "Shabby" was not directed at you at all. You took the trouble to try to provide some corroboration.

rippon

The concentration on Ilan Pappe misses my basic point, which is:

There are very many scholars (+e.g.+ Pappe), NGOs, activists, politicians, et al that produce evidence-based, rational, damning criticisms of Israel. Anyone who is being so widely accused of committing crimes deserves to be defended.

Imagine a court case where witness after witness after witness is simply dismissed by the defence with “Liar!” Such a defence would do a great disservice to the defendant, because it is so puerile that the defendant would end up being convicted.

A decent defence would engage with the witnesses and evidence and +demonstrate+ how it is flawed. At the top of this thread I cited someone (+not+ Pappe) who produces evidence against Israel (re contravening international law and Geneva conventions by laying siege to a civilian population). Only one person on this thread, Broadwood, has actually tried to engage with that evidence to expose the ‘flaw’ in its obvious and damning interpretation. Broadwood said, “In fact, looking at them [the tables and figures] objectively, you could almost believe they were checking how much people needed to make sure they got enough food.”

It’s interesting to hear what Broadwood “could almost believe”; personally, I find his interpretation wholly unconvincing, therefore not much help to Israel’s defence.

Apart from the “Lies!” screech, another puerile defence that is often employed is the red-herring of the crimes that other regimes are committing, and, therefore, the argument goes, the worldwide concentration on Israel’s behaviour demonstrates the phenomenon of worldwide Jew-hatred (and, in desperation to sustain this delusion, the recourse to the bizarre invention of the ‘self-hating’ Jew to account for the worldwide criticism of Israel +by Jews+). This is a red-herring because, actually, it is an (unwitting) admission of guilt, the ‘defence’ simply being that others are +more+ guilty, not that Israel is innocent. And it is more infantilism because it is the equivalent of, when a teacher reprimands a pupil, the pupil screeching, ‘What about HIM!?’

(Thanks for the good wishes that some people have expressed to/about me.)

C.Gee

I do hope you are not reading law at the Open University.

Here are a few basics. There must be a crime. Defendants are innocent until proven guilty. The prosecution must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense need do nothing, and the defendant will go free unless that burden of proof has been met. The jury, not the prosecution, is the finder of fact, and decider of guilt or absence of guilt.

"Near-starvation" in the context of a blockade imposed upon enemies in war is not a crime: it is an interpretive opinion. As the excellent Mr. Broadwood noted, "near-starvation" and "enough to survive" are equally valid interpretations - unless you are prejudging Israel's evil intent - and rely on the same evidence: a list of items allowed through a blockade. Mr. Bannoura’s "obvious" interpretation is obvious only to those who share his opinion.

Israel has no case to answer. There can be no indictment as there is no crime. There is no need to remind the jury that it must assume Israel’s innocence, because there can be no prosecution. The prosecutor, you, will be saved the embarrassment of trying to smuggle in the opinion of sham expert witnesses - Mr. Bannoura and Prof. Pappe - who are expert only in their own opinions and may be impeached on their qualifications, not to mention rebutted by defense opinion experts. And of course, there is no need to call up a defense, kind enough though you are in your confusion between litigation and debate, to say that Israel "deserves" (not has a right to?) a defense in answer to its critics. Finally, there is no need to dismiss Si, N, Wm. H. and the rest from the jury pool as incompetent, being unclear on the difference between fact and opinion, and on the concept of perjury. “I swear to tell a narrative, wholly based on the hearsay of historians truthful about their own bias, scrupulous in their selection of half-truths and sources to suit their prejudice, and nothing but that narrative,” - an oath that honestly promises to tell lies has not yet replaced the promise to tell the truth etc. Bearing false witness does not become just, merely because Pappe et. al have made - to quote an opinion - “grotesque travesty” fashionable.

Class and case dismissed.

rippon

Oh dear, C. Gee, your post (November 14th, 2010 9:48pm) contains much nonsense.

You started very confidently and authoritatively, with: “I do hope you are not reading law at the Open University.”

I’m +not+ reading law, and I inferred from this opening that you, in contrast to me, were going to demonstrate real legal knowledge (to improve my layman grasp).

But, clearly, you have even less legal knowledge than me.

You proceed with “Here are a few basics”, and then you get the basics wrong.

“There must be a crime.” Wrong. There must be a corpse; then the debate is over the question of whether or not that corpse arose as a result of a crime.

“The defense need do nothing.” Wrong. The job of the defence is to raise reasonable doubt about the prosecution’s case.

“The jury, not the prosecution, is the finder of fact”

This is pure nonsense. The jury doesn’t ‘find’ anything. It is the police and investigators who find facts. The prosecution interprets those facts to make a case; the defence debunks those facts and/or raises reasonable doubt about the prosecution’s interpretation of those facts. The jury merely decides whether the ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ threshold has been met (you got that much right, thankfully – would hate to think I was debating a moron).

There have been plenty of investigators, juries and judgements over the years, e.g. B’Tselem, UN, UN resolutions (respectively), to name just a few.

But I understand your ‘argument’ – inverted commas because, actually, your ‘argument’ merely comprises a few simple assertions (again, like the recalcitrant child screeching his simple assertion, “I didn’t do anything!”):
“Israel has no case to answer”, “there is no crime”, and all the Palestinians, scholars, NGOs, activists, politicians, etc. who assert Israeli crimes are “bearing false witness”, which is simply a posher way repeating the “Lies!” screech.

I totally agree, however, with your final simple assertion – “case dismissed” – because, indeed, that is my point: the ‘defence’ by the ‘defenders’ of Israel amounts exactly to that: simply +dismiss+ the criticisms as lies and worldwide Jew-hatred (the equivalent of the AliG line, ‘Is it ‘cos I is black!?’, but intended seriously, not as parody). So it is indeed ‘case dismissed’, but not, as you intend, case +closed+.

Wm. H.

The question is very simple. It is alleged that Ilan Pappe admits he lies. Where? The answer so far has been silence or intellectual hocus pocus.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Rippon: "Apart from the “Lies!” screech, another puerile defence that is often employed is the red-herring of the crimes that other regimes are committing, and, therefore, the argument goes, the worldwide concentration on Israel’s behaviour demonstrates the phenomenon of worldwide Jew-hatred (and, in desperation to sustain this delusion, the recourse to the bizarre invention of the ‘self-hating’ Jew to account for the worldwide criticism of Israel +by Jews+). This is a red-herring because, actually, it is an (unwitting) admission of guilt, the ‘defence’ simply being that others are +more+ guilty, not that Israel is innocent. And it is more infantilism because it is the equivalent of, when a teacher reprimands a pupil, the pupil screeching, ‘What about HIM!?’"

Rippon, the reason why your posts are a brew of spuriousness and insidiousness, is simply because it doesn't matter (as you surely well know) if Israel is hauled before the International Court for War Crimes or not - as any sanction against israel by that Court would be lamentably insufficient to prevent the unbridled continuation of the salivating hatred and vilification of that country, not to mention violent attacks against its soldiers and civilians (or, more accurately, civilians and soldiers - in order of the attackers' priorities)

Your self-righteous twaddle is merely yet another (though all too commonly employed) tactical springboard in a strategy used by all too many doing the killing of Jews i.e a step by step attempt to the Jewish state.

..and this is why you will never help those you purport to want to help. Your twaddle will merely reinforce Israel's conviction that the Twddlemeister must be consigned to the catacombs of history - so celebrated by its foremost proponents - the Pappes, Chomskys, Finkelsteins, Harolds, A's and that is not a swear word.. ..you know who I mean), Blades..that Pantheon of of intellectual Gods who have elevated the "anything goes for the sake of dogma" school of Save Our Children, Save our World".

The drug companies are still make a fortune - significantly because of you - for nausea management regimes.

Wm. H.

Phil? "Truthtriumphs"?

JOHN ROOSEVELT

It doesn't matter if Illan Pappe lies or tries or cries. It doesn't matter if Israel is convicted of War crimes and Hamas gets the Chair of the HRC. It doesn't matter if Ahmedinejad turns gay or the Hold Father joins Mossad (though some say he is already a member)..

What matters is there will never be peace in the Middle East, whatever Israel gives up, as long as it continues to exist and is capable of paying the moslems in kind.

Oh how simple life can be, sometimes...

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Rippon: diet or not diet, Hamas, the PLO, Fatah, Hizbollah, Iran, Syria and most moslems in the world today, not to mention the Chomsky/Finkelstein brethren and their hybrids - could give a monkey's toss how Israel deals with Gazans. They dont want a Jewish state to exist at all. if they countenance an the existence of some form of israel, it is one which will be swamped with those who only wish it not to exist at all.

In my view, Israel should treat this as a legal casus belli and prepare to defend itself in the best way it can. It should take a leaf out North Korea's book - the one peddled to iran and Syria.

The Palestinians will always suffer. With the leaders they have and have ever had, this is a certainty. With supporters like you, it is also a certainty...