The war against the Jews (19)

Jonathan

See Peter Hoskin's excellent post on Sderot, yesterday, with particular reference to Hamas's destuction of Gazan infrastructure. I quote:

"Hamas are tearing Gazan infrastructure apart to ensure the rockets keep falling on Israeli heads. Why are there no traffic lights in Gaza? Because the pipes which support them are being cut up and made into Qassams. Why is the Gazan drainage and sewage system so substandard? Same reason"

patricia

You know, some of us don't like wading through the Sewer known as the Spectator and its zealot blogs, but we do it anyway, in the interests of objectivity, accuracy and honesty.

Qualities sadly lacking in what used to be a real magazine.

Ann

I banned the cesspit known as the Independent from my home years ago, for reasons of public health, and flatly refuse to touch it. I read the sewer known as the Guardian very occasionally, just to keep abreast of their current level of antisemitic garbage from time to time.
It is highly ironic, albeit not in the least amusing, that the Orwell prize judges have become functionaries of the Ministry of Truth.

Ann

"objectivity, accuracy and honesty" from a rabid Jew-hater? In your pathological dreams, dear.

BWilliamson

Add the BBC and there you have the triumvirate of Israel hating left wing British establishment media. The lies and deception from such outlets is quite astounding but why do they do it? I read the CiF pages and the disconnect between writers rants and reader response is quite illuminating especially on Islamic issues. Better though to search out the increasing number of blogs on the subject. Jihad Watch and Dhimmi Watch for starters will disabuse any but head in sand zealots of their pathological ignorance.

PHIL

ANN WHY DO YOU REPLY TO THIS WOMAN WHO HAS PLUMBED MORE DEPTHS THAN CAPTAIN NEMO-I HAVE SAID ON ANOTHER THREAD THAT WE DEGRADE OURSELVES REPLYING TO HER -WOULD YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO LORD HAW HAW ? NO ANSWER NEEDED

Francis

Do we have to suffer Patricia's venomous diatribes on this site? There are other places on the net where she can spit out her poison and where she might even find a date.

Adam B.

Patricia, if you think the Guardian and Independent are "objective, accurate and honest", then you have a screw loose. What do you have to say about the example provided by Melanie, regarding Hari's fabricated quotes, refuted by Benny Morris himself? Yes, really "accurate, objective and honest." Qualities sadly lacking in you.

FinanceDoc

I wouldn't be overly concerned with patricia. She is probably a depressed loner consumed with her hatred for a people who, on a per capita basis, have contributed more to the world in the arts, sciences, philosophy, and medicine than any other ethnic or religious group in history.

In the end, Patricia and others of her ilk will be done in by their own cognitive dissonance, unable as they are to accede the same national rights and liberties, freedom from persecution and terror for the Jews that they demand and enjoy for themselves.

Charles

"..... on a per capita basis, have contributed more to the world in the arts, sciences, philosophy, and medicine than any other ethnic or religious group in history."

One hears this claim often. But is it really correct? I can't think of so many great artists or authors. Some composers, true. But how many were really amongst the great? Scientists, quite possibly. Philosophers, really? And medicine, well maybe.

Now if you had said lawyers, that would be a different matter.

FinanceDoc

Surely you jest Charles. Let us simply take Nobel Prize winners as a proxy for Jewish contributions in the modern era. Here's an informative website on the matter: http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

* Chemistry (29 prize winners, 19% of world total, 28% of US total)
* Economics (25 prize winners, 41% of world total, 55% of US total)
* Literature (13 prize winners, 13% of world total, 27% of US total)
* Peace (9 prize winners, 9% of world total, 10% of US total)3
* Physics (47 prize winners, 26% of world total, 38% of US total)
* Physiology or Medicine (53 prize winners, 28% of world total, 41% of US total)

And in philosophy/psychology, there is Maimonides, Spinoza, Freud and Fromm just to name a few of the all-stars.

Of course, I suppose Mendelssohn doesn't count as he was baptized Lutheran by his German Jewish father mistakenly believing that the Jews in Europe would escape persecution if they assimilated.

I'll ignore your crack about Jewish lawyers.

Charles

Hi Finance Doc,

I don't think that I was really that far off, was I?

I was positive about science and medicine but sceptical about some of the other categories. I note you have sneaked in a few new ones to bolster your stats, well I cannot blame you for that as I see you were struggling with the artists, philosophers & composers! All the best.

Clemence de Roch

The Guardian Letter is the one that discourages me most. I mean, it was expected of the likes of Harold Pinter, but STEPHEN FRY???

Ann

" I note you have sneaked in a few new ones to bolster your stats" - they always find some way to rationalise the fact that they lost the argument, don't they?

Ann

Clemence, I know I've not had enough sleep for a couple of days but I have no idea which Guardian letter you are talking about ;-)))
Please enlighten me. Thanks!
You do expect utter tripe from the ignorant champagne 'socialist' Pinter, of course. I can't say I would be all that surpised to hear that Fry wrote tripe too. He is a vastly overrated 'intellect', to put it kindly.

Adam B.

What annoys me about Pinter and Fry and their ilk is that their Jewish identity means nothing to them until it comes to attacking Israel. It is then they suddenly discover their "Jewishness."

Adam B.

Charles, regarding Jewish composers, you really must be joking, right? Mahler, Mendelssohn, Gershwin, Schoenberg, Bernstein, Copland, Lerner and Lowe, Irving Berlin, Ligeti, Bloch, Reich, Glass, Nyman, Schnittke, Dukas, Sondheim, Wolpe, Meyerbeer, Weill, Korngold, Dessau, Offenbach, Finzi, Eisler, Feldman...I mean how many do you want for such a small population?!

Bob McCosker

Israeli metal used for Kassam rockets
By YAAKOV KATZ
Mar 4, 2007 17:25
“It took seven years, but the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) has finally put a stop to one of the more ironic aspects on Israel's war on terror: Kassam rockets made of Israeli metal.
A Palestinian from the Gaza Strip who worked as a metal merchant at the Karni crossing between Israel and the Strip was arrested by the Shin Bet last month for allegedly selling pipes he bought in Israel to terrorist groups that used them to manufacture Kassams, it was released for publication on Sunday.
On February 9, the Shin Bet arrested Amar Azk, 37. During his interrogation, he confessed selling the pipes to Hamas and other terrorist organizations that manufactured Kassam rockets, fired almost daily at Israel. The Shin Bet said Azk's activities began with the start of the second intifada in 2000 and were only brought to a halt by his arrest. The agency could not say how much metal Azk traded, except that it was "significant."
The pipes that were sold to Zak were intended for the construction of a sewage system in Gaza."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1171894568749&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Tom

Thank you for commenting on the Hari article. I think the only thing worse than an anti-semite is a janus-faced anti-semite, which is what his article emphatically amounts to. The 'shit' he refers to is clearly intended to symbolise his view of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, with no mention of the fact that (a) sewage and shit are not synonymous and (b) Egypt et al could do more to help.

But no, with a shiny new award, and the prospect of finally breaking into the metropolitan dinner party circuit, Hari did what he HAD TO do to be known as a left-wing Londoner. He slammed Israel.

Shame on him.

Ravi

We have to wonder why there are two articles about sewage so close together by Hari and Bowen. Its like a random attack that doesn't quite seem random. Har's item seems to be out of pure malice without any reference to the past but Bowen's article is truly disgusting from the perspective that he emotes about the death of a baby under a sea of sewage without ANY reference to the TRUE context that his department reported-on in March 2007 where we were told the Palestinians were warned about the situation in 2004. He doesn't tell the readers that the funding required was secured and that the blame lies with the Palestinians. He ignores the other Palestinian deaths, concentrating on a baby using a personal tragedy to emote the reader into feeling hate for Israel (who aren't to blame). He doesn't even tell you that Israel treated the victims in 2007 in their hospitals and sent two pumping ships to help the Gazans despite their attacks on Israel. Sorry, but one should be examining what Bowen wrote when he must have known what his department stated in March 2007. Do you think the BBC should be encouraged to investigate his motives?

Charles

Ann,

"THEY always find some way to rationalise the fact that THEY lost the argument, don't THEY?"

Who are THEY? And when did I join THEM?

The last time we exchanged views, you seemed to think that you had a better insight into the genocidally dangerous circumstances of the early settlers than Ambassador Morgenthau and David Ben-Gurion! And you talk about winning arguments!!

Charles

Adam B.

Thank you for enlightening me with respect to composers. I do recognise some of those names - music is not my forte (no pun intended), nor am I well versed in the ethnicity of famous people.

I was just intrigued to find out whether there was any justification for claims that one hears often. I appreciate the point about population size, however for accuracy one would really need to talk in terms of the intellectual achievements of comparable urban populations (our cousins in the country generally being pretty busy with the 'proper' work!).

In those terms I should imagine that it would be quite a task to usurp the artistic achievements of Renaissance Italy or those of Athens in philosophy, to name but two fields of endeavour which appeared on FinanceDoc's original list.

I don't mean to knock the achievements of others, but I just feel one should be careful about promulgating an image which, whilst it has positive associations, may be interpreted by others as a statement of innate ethnic superiority. When, as we all know, intellectual achievement is a matter of nature, nurture and, above all, circumstances.

MDJ

Ann, are you really in a position to judge Stephen Fry's intellect? Up until now I have taken your contributions quite seriously; now I'm not so sure. (Are you saying you're cleverer than he is? Even if you don't profess this, your comment makes you seem silly and petty.)

Bob Latchford

Jonathan, one minute we are being told that Iran is providing Hamas with the latest, leading technology to fire on Israel, the other we are being told that Hamas are cutting up pipes to make 'rockets'. Make your mind up!

A. McF.

"As we all know....", Charles?? [Your words: "When, as we all know, intellectual achievement is a matter of nature, nurture and, above all, circumstances"]Well, I certainly don't KNOW that, and neither do you. You remind me of Gordon Brown, who has taken of late to saying things like "I know that the people want x, y or z" - when he knows no such thing but hopes that by SAYING he knows it we will be lulled into believing his wishful thinking is fact. Face it, you're anti-Semitic; at least have the courage of your despicable convictions.

Charles

A. McF.

".. despicable convictions"? Where did that come from?

I should have thought that it was blindingly obvious that intellectual achievements are far more likely when the circumstances are conducive. A composer needs orchestras, an academic needs his peers, an artist his studio, etc., etc.

You've insulted me twice over in your comments, sir (or madam), for no good reason it would seem. Most strange.

Ann

Charles, you know nothing about my level of knowledge about the early settlers, since you don't know who I am. One thing is sure: I know a lot more about them than you do, and about other things besides (your unfounded categorical claims that 'we know this' and 'we know that' are nothing but handwaving, proving that you have no real argument). And here you go again, trying to rationalise away the number of Jewish composers (which you pooh-poohed earlier from a position of ignorance) and scientists by introducing a spurious deus ex machina, namely 'urban v. rural'.

MDJ, unless you know for sure that I don't know Fry in person, dismissing my comment as 'silly and petty' is an example of pots and kettles. Thanks, however, for the rest of your comments.

Abu Muayt's mate

I see the assorted jew haters are gathering in londonistan to cobble together the usual tired denunciations of israel. It seems the israelis have the temerity to partially blockade supplies to the gazan fascists who are trying to murder them. Most of the G'Indie writers to whom you refer would no doubt have had comfortable seats on the Judenraat in the Lodz ghetto during the last attempted genocide.

Charles

Ann,

Where did I say that I knew more than you?

I only said that you had no adequate response to some pretty definitive references. And there are others.

I originally, on the previous thread, took umbrage at some damning comments about the British. I feel that I am entitled to do that.

On this occasion I simply questioned a mantra that one hears often. I believe that I did this politely and in good humour. FinanceDoc responded in kind, I think. And then this is followed by insults from yourself and others.

Tell me where I went wrong? Politely, please.

FinanceDoc

"I don't think that I was really that far off, was I?"

Not far off? Charles, wake up. I offered you a list of Nobel Prize winners in 6 categories including literature ("I can't think of so many") and medicine ("well maybe") where Jews are overrepresented relative to their numbers (.002% of the world population) by a factor of over 11,000.

Whilst you are sitting on the potty trying to decide whether Jewish accomplishment is a function of nature or nurture, the Jews are getting on with it.

Ann

Charles, kindly define 'insults' ("And then this is followed by insults from yourself"). I wonder what dictionary you are using. I posted factual statements and legitimate opinions. You may disagree with them, but calling them 'insults' is hysterical nonsense.

Adam B.

Charles, you say that great artistic achievements happen when "circumstances" are right. When have circumstances been right for the Jews in Europe? It may interest you that the composer Victor Ullmann was writing operas whilst in a death camp, hardly ideal circumstances. It seems to me that you are trying to denigrate the many achievements of Jewish people. In fact, their achievements seem to make you uncomfortable. Why?

Adam B.

The point about Fry's intelliegence is a red herring. Extremely intelligent people can have the most vile views. Most of the leading Nazis who sat around the table at the Wannsee conference to plan the mass murder of Europe's Jews in 1942 had PhD's (NOT that I am making any comparison with Mr Fry for a second!) But my point is that intelligence and morality, or even good sense, do not necessarily go together. My problem with Mr Fry is that, (although he is a hugely talented and entertaining man), he chooses to attack Israel through his Jewish identity, an identity which seems to mean nothing to him at any other time. I never see him associating with the Jewish community at any other time, and I never hear a bad word about the anti-semitic genocidal plans of Hamas and Iran. Pinter is the same. That is moral cowardice (and hypocrisy), and I truly find it sad.

Alexandrovich

MDJ: "Up until now I have taken your contributions quite seriously."
With whom are you confusing her?

Charles

FinanceDoc,

"... sitting on the potty ..."!! And there was I thinking that our dialogue had been good humoured. This blog probably needs some kind of warning sign advising potential new visitors, such as myself, to leave their manners at the door or just walk past. Me, I'm off!

Hereford

Bob Dylan :o)

phil

Charles what the hell are you talking about ?what is your message to us ? If you need this info go to wikipedia it will occupy you for many happy hours ,although why this discussion is taking place is beyond me -are you mocking us or are you just a joker ,if so as they say don't give up your day job

Ann

Alexandrovich, remind us which useful contribution you have EVER made on this site? Oh, yes, that's right: nil, nada, zilch, not a sausage. So go back to your stamp collection and leave the adults in peace.

Dhimmier

Is there a race on earth that doesn't think it's best? But if you look at achievement over all fields (from maths to art to sport to engineering), I think white non-Jews come out on top: Beethoven, Shakespeare, Michelangelo, Stevenson, Best, for example. They aren't allowed to blow their own trumpets, however -- supremacism is only allowed to minorities in our PC times.

Ahad ha'amoratzim

Add to the list of Jewish composers: Kurt Weill, Franz Waxman, Eric Zeisl, Irving Berlin, Charles Previn, Andre Previn, Dmitiri Tiomkin, Burt Bachrach.

Does Benny Goodman count as a composer? Either way, his talents as a performer certainly made a contribution to music. And what about Heifetz, Zukerman, Perlman? Lieber and Stoler (who I assume were Jewish, but may be wrong)?

As for art, what about Chagall and others of the Paris School?

And what does this have to do with the topic? If the Jewish people had not produced talented individuals who benefitted the entire world, would that have made Patricia's nonsense okay?

Alexandrovich

Dhimmier and Charles. I don't think they like discussing things on this site. It makes you wonder what satisfaction is garnered from telling each other 'I love Israel and everything Jewish and hate everybody and everything else, including the British.' Every day, every thread. Obviously, anybody who disagrees with them is a vile persecutor.

David Lindsay

Israel the West's front line?

Neither of Israel's official languages is Indo-European. It does not have a Christian majority population. But it does have Sharia courts for those who happen to be born into certain ethnic minorities.

Israel may be many things, whether admirable or otherwise. But it is simply not a Western country. Still less is it the West's front line.

Ann

There is no such thing as 'race', only nations, so that argument is nonsense from the start. Beethoven, Shakespeare and those others don't belong to the same nation, so this list is spurious and meaningless.
Alexandrovich, you have still not made any useful statement here, ever. We have seen from you only snide, adolescent sniggering. Do you not have homework to be getting on with?

Ann

"Israel may be many things, whether admirable or otherwise. But it is simply not a Western country" - obviously, Lindsay has never been to Israel and knows exactly nothing about it. Of course, that has never stopped him offering learned opinions on subjects he is ignorant of.

A thorn in your side

I donīt know about Jewish contributions to the arts and medicine etc. but what I do know from personal experience is the notable Jewish prominence of people who were tax evading swindlers.

phil

Most of us have written numerous threads but this one has produced "stuff"more stupid than I have ever seen and from some who must have crawled out from under a stone

A thorn in your side
May 3rd, 2008 3:12am
I donīt know about Jewish contributions to the arts and medicine etc. but what I do know from personal experience is the notable Jewish prominence of people who were tax evading swindlers.YOU COULDN'T BE A CHARTERED ACCOUNTANT .YOU DEFINITELY ARE NOT A TAX INSPECTOR-I CAN ONLY SUPPOSE YOU ARE A SWINDLER --ENLIGHTEN US

as for alexandrovich ,you have my prize for the most stupid statements .it is in the post -try saying something sensible and you will get another -otherwise hoppit sonny Christians and Jews debate happily together here

PHIL

I TOOK JONATHANS ADVICE AND READ PETE HOSKINS EXCELLENT PIECE IN THE COFFEE HOUSE SECTION -I COMMEND IT TO YOU ALL -OH SORRY ALEXANDROVICH AND THORN -NOT YOU -YOU WOULDN'T LIKE IT

Stanislav Koblinski

Jewish Nobel Prize Winners:

Jewish Nobel Laureates: 11590% More Than Population Statistics Might Expect
http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/02/25/jewish-nobel-laureates-11590-more-than-population-statistics-might-expect/

http://www.jinfo.org/

At least 176 Jews and persons of half-Jewish ancestry have been awarded the Nobel Prize,1 accounting for 23% of all individual recipients worldwide between 1901 and 2007, and constituting 37% of all US recipients2 during the same period. In the scientific research fields of Chemistry, Economics, Medicine, and Physics, the corresponding world and US percentages are 27% and 40%, respectively. (Jews currently make up approximately 0.25% of the world's population and 2% of the US population.)
http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

Ann

Mindless antisemitic drivel. Straight from the Stuermer, approved by Goebbels.

David

This is a real interesting debate. But can we nail this thing once and for all and give them the philosophers, authors and artist names?

Nobel prizes says it all on the science totally, but I only know three of the writers. There must be more, right?

George Steiner

Most of you fellows are very defensive about the Jews. You seem to feel the need to justify the Jewish existence by the Jewish contribution to humanity. I would not do this. Rather, I would look for the Arab contribution to humanity since Mohamed. See what you come up with? To start you off on your discussion, what was the first book ever, written in Arabic? The Koran. Compiled shortly after Mohamed's death. By this time the Greeks, Chinese, Hindus to mention a few, had produced a huge literature.

Leslie

Why do only Jews need to prove that they have the right to exist, and to have a homeland?

phil

david whoeveryouare-go to wikipedia and stop wasting our time -do you know what wikipedia is ?

Stanislav Koblinski

David,

You can find the names of Nobel Prize Winners by using the links I've provided. Or search for yourself using google.

That's g-o-o-g-l-e

ajmalkov

Alexandrovich:

"It makes you wonder what satisfaction is garnered from telling each other 'I love Israel and everything Jewish and hate everybody and everything else, including the British.' Every day, every thread."

Talk about a straw man. No one on this site has ever said they love Israel unconditionally and hate everything and everyone else. Not even close. Argue with those imaginary people if you must, though. Have fun with that.

The reason people come to this site, I assume, is similar to the reason I come here. I want to keep an eye on a pernicious cancer centered in Britain that is currently spreading across Europe. Because that cancer could end up spreading to where I live.

Perhaps a better analogy would be a gathering storm, like the one the savior of Britain spotted on the far horizon in 1929.

Which reminds me: Mel, I love you, and I don't know how you would do your job from afar, but it might be time for you and your husband to get out of Britain. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it's going to get very ugly relatively soon.

At this point I'm way more afraid of the anti-semites than I am of the Musselmen. The Musselmen at least are brave. The anti-semites are beneath contempt.

phil

David
May 3rd, 2008 2:30pm
" This is a real interesting debate. But can we nail this thing once and for all and give them the philosophers, authors and artist names?

Nobel prizes says it all on the science totally, but I only know three of the writers. There must be more, right?"

David if that was a serious question sorry for my abruptness .I THINKL I NAILED THE WRONG GUY but try wikipedia anyway -we get a lot of smart alecs here so if you were genuine please forgive me

Tina

"Jonathan, one minute we are being told that Iran is providing Hamas with the latest, leading technology to fire on Israel, the other we are being told that Hamas are cutting up pipes to make 'rockets'. Make your mind up!" says Bob Latchford.

Er, sorry, how are these two statements incompatible? Hamas are using anything and everything they can get their hands on to make rockets from the technologicically advanced to homemade rockets. It's set out in some detail here:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/643856/a-snapshot-of-sderot.thtml

Jose Garcia

Ann wrote
"objectivity, accuracy and honesty" from a rabid Jew-hater? In your pathological dreams, dear.

OUCH!!!!!!
that must have hurt.....

Jose Garcia

Adam B wrote
"The point about Fry's intelliegence is a red herring. Extremely intelligent people can have the most vile views. Most of the leading Nazis who sat around the table at the Wannsee conference to plan the mass murder of Europe's Jews in 1942 had PhD's (NOT that I am making any comparison with Mr Fry for a second!) But my point is that intelligence and morality, or even good sense, do not necessarily go together. My problem with Mr Fry is that, (although he is a hugely talented and entertaining man), he chooses to attack Israel through his Jewish identity, an identity which seems to mean nothing to him at any other time. I never see him associating with the Jewish community at any other time, and I never hear a bad word about the anti-semitic genocidal plans of Hamas and Iran. Pinter is the same. That is moral cowardice (and hypocrisy), and I truly find it sad"

coulnt agree more, mind you why do you think so many jews attack their own country/roots?

i totally baffled.....

Shy Guy

Jose Garcia
May 5th, 2008 6:06am

mind you why do you think so many jews attack their own country/roots?

i totally baffled.....

Read Steven Plaut's book review: Jewish Divide Over Israel.

Also, google "jewish anti-semites" and pick through the entries.

The Prophet Isaiah said (49:17):

"Your sons have hastened; those who destroy you and those who lay you waste shall go forth from you."

A lot of people like to take the latter half of the verse to mean we will be our own worst enemies. However, if you read it in the context of the chapter, it is relating to Israel's enemies moving out of Israel's midst. This can be referring to our very own Pappés and Finkelsteins. Insh'Allah!

phil

Jose G .some thought they could have the haters take them to their bosom by disclaiming their origins and their people -hitler soon proved them wrong -I see jeremy bowen found a few last night on the BBC in his usual distorted commentary on the birth of Israel

Kennybhoy

"I really can’t bring myself to wade into those sewers known as the Guardian and Independent..."

Ahem...?
http://www.eiscablog.eu/commentariat-hatred-seeps-into-camerons-holocaust-education-gimmick-row

http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/Articles/ActionAlerts/tabid/74/newsid397/2888/THANK-THE-DAILY-MAIL--PETER-MCKAY-ON-LEBANON/Default.aspx

Thoughts...?

andrew birch

Funny, I seem to remember Melanie working for the Guardian a few years ago - she didn't mind taking their money then...typical Zionist hypocrite!

Lisa Abramowicz

I know that it is some time ago now, but I am still upset about the letter in the Guardian with the headline "We are not celebrating Israel's 60th birthday". Not actually the letter itself, I've got used to that kind of raving and ranting against Israel, bur the fact that Stephen Fry also signed it.I agree there with Clemenc de Roch. I am a huge fan of Fry and have enjoyed many hours listening to him reading the Harry Potter books among others.
There was actually a word for word translation in a big Swedish newspaper a few weeks later of that letter with 16 signatories, all of them Swedish Jews who never have anything to do with anything Jewish except when it is to defame Israel. I together with the leaders of the Jewish communities in Sweden actually managed to get in a retort to the letter, where we stressed that we - the elected representatives of the Jews in Sweden - naturally gave them the right to think whatever they liked on Israel, but were concerned about the false historical basis of statements of the anti-Zionist Jews.
Do you I have to say that the Anti-Zionists got about twice as much space as us? But -they never got back to fault us on the history of 1948 - thank you Benny Morris!