The British Jewish leadersheep

Truthtriumphs

We currently have no Jewish leadership here.
These so-called leaders, of whom Mick Davis is an excellent example of the genre, are both ignorant and arrogant, primarily consumed with their own importance and infatuated with their success in their own field.
They claim to speak for us, but nothing is further from the truth.
Everyone I know has stopped giving to Israel via UJIA for obvious reasons.
I know not of a single person who holds with Mick's views.
Does that make one an extremist?

EDDIE

It was ever thus. At the turn of the century British Community leaders were against the immigration of Jews from the East as they might undermine their own ;positions in polite society. They were indeed uncomfortable. Before the last war when Jews were being openly abused in Europe the British community leaders again failed to act. This mentality was well illustrated at the time of the six day war by the late Bernard Levin, a brilliant journalist who wrote in ‘the times” that he was first and foremost a British Citizen. In case the great and good could think that as a Jew he might have dual loyalty- a well known anti Semitic trope.
Now our uncomfortable Jewish community leaders together with other celebrity Jews are again attacking Israel in order to show their friends just how impartial they are, yet they wilfully ignore or are ignorant of the origins of the conflict in the Middle East since the end of the first World War.
like so many on the left of politics, nothing, no facts, no truths must ever be allowed to interfere with their delusional fantasises. They are beneath contempt.

Joshua

"That there is a major crisis is not in doubt. But they are it."

And this year's Mordechai Chaim Rumkowski award goes to...

Alex Bensky

Rather than welcoming the support they continue to disavow it, hoping against all reason and experience that if we only tell our enemies how nice we are they will cease to be our enemies. In a perverse way this ties into the Jew-hater's claim that the problem with Jews is what they do rather than what they are.

It's a phenomenon we see on this side of the ocean, usually with Christian supporters of Israel but not entirely.

I don't know enough about the British situation to be able to say how much of it is what is an important part over here--class bias. The community leadership simply feels a lot more comfortable with white-shoe clergy like Episcopalians or academics than it does like, well, say, Sarah Palin.

But in the faculty lounges, living rooms, and tv studios where these people feel most comfortable and where they tend to meet the sort of people whose approval they crave, irrational hatred of Israel is more accepted and they are caught up in a natural desire to fit in with people who have the views Melanie describes

Graeme Thompson

Well spoken M/s Phillips. Our catastrophic financial bankruptcy might just have something to do with our catastrophic moral bankruptcy.

Faulty Vision(s)

This Mick Davis, He just reminds me so much of our old friend Green Helmet.
They could be long lost twin brothers.
Ah those where the days! Eh?
Well maybe that is one person who will share the views of Mick Davis apart from Fisk of course. The real problem Israel has is that only such persons get the media attention in the "liberal" West. However the internet allows one to make up ones own mind.
What annoys me is Fisk getting away with apparently unchallenged emotionally convincing victimhood for the poor palestinian - such work must affect many opinions or have done so before the internet was so prevalent and started to rival television as a video medium.
I would have thought that Iranian Jews were more likely to be placed in the position that Mick describes by Ahmadinejad.
The supra national mental and political state of mick davis's imagination appears to be
reverse engineered victimhood
reconstituted blame
re-allocated guilt
misplaced disloyalty

A community is easy to destroy from within - if you make it daft enough, enough will walk away for it to cease to exist.

Imre Herzog

Regretfully one sees that many liberal Jews prefer to attack Israel, instead of defending it. It is also shameful that people like Mike Davis, who because of their wealth are elected to lead groups and bash out at Israel, because they are scared of the backlash of Israeli politics on their well being. Jews should not forget that after Londonistan, the only country that will accept them with open arms is Israel.

MaxSceptic

Jews in Britain have three alternatives:

1) Assimilate: become secular Britons first and foremost and lose all the religious & cultural baggage associated with diaspora Jews.

2) Become even more religious, observe ridiculous rites whilst wearing weird clothing and living in a self-selected ghetto.

3) Emigrate to Israel were Jews have a future and aren't cowards, self-loathing, impotent or 'ASHamed'*.

*© Howard Jacobson

i forgot what it was i was suppossed to remember

couldnt help noticing the other subjects of the day

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/nov/24/student-protests-school-children-streets

Hells bells so the only way they can communicate is as a mob through violence.
If they demand to be set free and demand not to pay just throw them out of school.
I know thats far too us and them for bleedin heart liberals and therefore so be it.
What is the point of education if it is both impossible to fund and produces complete
morons?
I dont know anymore.
I guess somebody changed their drugs and they just couldnt help themselves!

When I went to school i learnt things in and out of class (i did my best painting while bunking off double French but Mr Crabbe let me off) but I had no right to violently
wreck my own future and blame someone else.
The university system was stuck between thatcherite cuts and socialist bunkum and I had no
desire to go there, I would have been happy doing jobs that i had already had but i was told not to do and go to
college instead. It was worth it and not worth it and I couldnt change it.
I got a job afterwards to pay off my debts in less than a year.
When i went to college there was a point to protests and people generally protested non
violently. Ever been to greenham common? Well anyway what was the point and what is the point of the British university system anymore? Its been bankrupt either morally or
financially or both or heading there for decades? Its just a hangout for the left and drug
dealers etc. I remember a tutor dealing drugs to students. maybe 5-10% of my year had drugs problems hard drugs cocaine heroin were the biggest dare for some and concurrent hepatitus followed after that methadone but for at least one user hiv and aids. So what was a college grant worth for him?

Shaun Harbord

"putting their heads above the parapet and making their case in public" - well, you've certainly done that, as you are perfectly entitled to do, and yet you seem amazed that anyone should disagree with you. Dredful how people think for themselves isn't it? It must be stopped!!!

David Lindsay

Perhaps, being the Board of Deputies of British Jews, they do not really see it as their job to look after a foreign state, and instead see the impression of an allegiance to that state as bad for the interests of, you know, British Jews? It's just a thought.

Edgar Davidson

The increasingly indifferent (and at times hostile) attitude of British Jewish Leadership toward Israel is reflected in the deterioration of the Jewish Chronicle over the last two years. The JC is increasingly taking on the mantle of standard left-wing Jewish critics of Israel. This can be seen in the prominence it now gives every week to articles, letters and interviews with anti-Zionists. The JC is increasingly obsessed with the 'radical right wing threat to British Jewry' while continuing to ignore the real threat from the Islamist-leftist alliance. To confirm its total ignorance of what is really going on, it continues to refer to the American J-Street organisation as a "pro-Israel liberal lobby" even after the evidence that its leaders had hidden the fact is was being secretly funded by the anti-Zionist Soros and even Arab propagandists.

Jon_Boy

David and Shaun I think what Melanie would like the Anglo Jewish leadership to do is to stand up and object to the Islamic/Arab worlds stated and unambiguous aim of wiping Israel and its Jewsih citizens of the face of this earth and to object to the fact that their own country's leadership is also aquiescing to this endeavour of genocide.

Of course Melanie is right that the Anglo Jewish community has poor historical form already on this with that previous genocide that took place in the 30s and 40s.

When all the Jewish citizens are murdered in Israel what will you say Shaun and David? Sorry we didn't know and claim no one could have seen it coming or as I suspect laugh and just say they brought it all on themselves? And then when the Islamic world comes for yourselves and your loved ones? What will you do? Convert or stand up to them? Maybe I might be around by then to laugh and think well that Sahun and david brought on themselves. However I will definitely be able to say hell anyone could have seen that coming.

Gordon Ross

Pathetic, miserable, cringing bunch. They are the carbon copies of the weak-knees who hadn’t the guts to stand up to criticize and object to British policy and behaviour in the Land of Israel during the period 1935 to 1948. So what if you are accused of ‘dual loyalty’ (as Melanie has been) for raising your voice in support of your brothers and sisters in Israel ! Note how often these British-born Muslims with their constant complaints, demands and hostile behaviour towards the country of their birth are accused of ‘dual loyalty’, and would they give a damn if they were so accused !

Veracity

As one of those non Jews who have given most of their working life to extolling Israel, I still cannot understand why there was no mass walk out at the Board of Deputies' dinner. Would the speaker have been shocked , most certainly, would a lesson have been learned , undoubtedly,would self respect have been retained , assuredly, would courage have been bolstered, of course.It should have happened over the monstrous Methodist resolution too but everyone tried to be 'decent' Well they are avowedly gunning for the Christian Zionists next and I won't be applauding them and reacting quietly. The Moslem pride has something to teach us

Hawkeye

Well said Melanie as always. Our Jewish leadership is an utter disgrace.

J. Isaacs

Bravo Lord Kalms.

C.Gee

David Lindsay, November 26th, 2010 6:04pm:

“Perhaps, being the Board of Deputies of British Jews, they do not really see it as their job to look after a foreign state, and instead see the impression of an allegiance to that state as bad for the interests of, you know, British Jews?”

Ah, that old, pernicious Edwin Montagu faction of British Jewry asserts itself again: the solipsistic strand of Jewish thinking that is deeply suspicious of a state for Jews because it makes it easier for anti-semites to impugn Jews’ loyalty the nations they live in, and so make life uncomfortable for them again. Montagu believed the European states that tolerated diaspora Jews would insist on their Jews emigrating to the new Jewish state, where they would be crowded together with other Jews all speaking different languages. (Ghastly. And who seriously believes there is room for them all in Palestine? Am I expected to leave the Gentleman’s Club which has only just accepted me as a member to be sent into a ghetto on the Levant?) He was one of the first anti-Zionists to insist that the Jewish identity was religious only and stated that there could only be Jewish Britons, not British Jews. Thanks to his insistence, the Balfour Declaration was changed so that the Jewish national home “in” Palestine could not “prejudice the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country” (the “I’m doing fine, the Club accepted me, don’t make waves” clause). That was in 1917. Twenty years later, the Jews of Europe were not enjoying their rights and political status all that much - and it had nothing to do with the existence of a reconstituted Jewish national home. And the very language in the Balfour Declaration that was inserted to protect assimilated Jews of the diaspora, was used to deny them refuge in Palestine at the very moment they needed it most.

And now it is 2010, and the new Edwin Montagus are advising Jews that it would be better for them if Israel were not so Jewish.

greenie

people hate what israel is doing to the palestinians, i am appalled that the commentators seem to feel it is israel which is hard done by. Your inability to see the unfairness of the situation is truly distressing, i await an ad hominem attack

Derek Pasquill

Obviously a master of the form, Mick Davis is one of those indispensable idiots working hard to transmit proper dhimmi values.

I salute him.

phil

Do you wish to stifle the thoughts of every Jew who supports Israel with every breathe they breathe, and yet feel that there is room for debate on certain political issues . I wrote on "Israels false friend " on the 26/11 and it immediately closed the debate ,without one comment,and has now moved to this thread .We are not a fascist people ,we can and have always put forward different opinions ,but this attack on anyone who does not agree with you does both you ,the Jewish people and Israel a disservice .
-----------------------
I love Israel and wish only for its wellbeing in a land that much of my younger family reside ,one of whom has given his life for the pursuit of peace .I have great admiration for both Douglas and Robin ,it does not mean I have to agree with every word they say and I doubt that they would wish me to do so. .I have no time for those that want to knock Israel ,but I do for those that wish to debate its future success .
------------------
Those of you who post regularly will know how strongly defend Israel so I will make no excuses for having a different opinion from some of you now ,The future peace depends on negotiation and dual accommodation ,that is what to strive for ,not fighting amongst ourselves .

Fabio P.Barbieri

According to Italian Jewish historian Anna Foa', in 1943 the leadership of Rome's Jews was still so certain of its "friendship" with the Fascist government (five years after the infamous Race Laws of 1938!) that they rejected their Chief Rabbi's urgent warnings to flee the coming Nazi occupiers (Rome was occupied by the Nazis on September 12, 1943, and freed by the Allies on June 6, 1944) and denounced him as a self-seeking alarmist. As a result of that, and in spite of the willingness of the Italian people and of the Catholic Church to help (eventually, more than 40,000 Italian Jews were saved), the whole Jewish leadership was herded into the camps. And their delusion was such that even there they believed themselves protected and secure because of their "high placed friendships" in the Italian government. (It is worth pointing out that, apart from the hideous massacres of Italian civilians carried oug by German troops in the last two years of the war, even the King of Italy's own favourite daughter, Mafalda, was murdered in a Nazi camp.) It would seem that suicidal delusion is not a recent phenomenon.

Michelle

Mick Davis can't understand why Bibi isn't listening to him. Oh the arrogance of it!

Bibi is listening. Israel is a democracy, and Bibi and the Knesset represent the spectrum of Israeli voters. Those who are unhappy with him need to make Aliyah and vote for an opposition party.

Why should he be listening to some wealthy Jew in Hampstead? Is Hampstead suddenly in firing range of kassam rockets from Gaza?

Can fund raising for Israel suddenly buy you a place in the Knesset?

Thank G-d Israel is a democracy and his little tantrum will have no impact.

Michelle

Edgar Davidson @ 7:00pm.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the JC. This story is obviously boosting their declining circulation. It is to be expected when we know the connections between the the JC’s owners - the Kessler Foundation and the New Israel Fund.

Nicholas Saphir, (a Sussex-based farmer) is a trustee of the Kessler Foundation which oversees the running of the JC. He is also Chairman of the New Israel Fund as well as being involved in “overseeing the running of The JC.” In such circumstances, could The JC’s current editorial policy actually be influenced by Nicholas Saphir and his New Israel Fund’s political views?

If so, are we to conclude, that the “Organ of British Jewry” is now moving very much left of centre in the various debates concerning Israel and diaspora Jewry?

Reuven

For *Greenie*: What exactly are the Israelis doing to the Palestinians? I DO know what the Palestinians would do to the Israelis, given the chance. Latest is they don't recognize the Western Wall as Jewish. This is the equivalent of Jews not recognizing Mecca as their holiest of holies. Do you understand the implications or prefer to look the other way?

Michelle

Melanie
"my article for this week’s Jewish Chronicle; for some reason not yet on line"

Strange isn't it when Emanuele Ottolenghi's piece of yesterday is online. Could your views not be inline with the Kessler Foundation?

Or maybe staff shortages due to the redundancies made at Furnival Street last week?

Anyway Melanie, I'm happy to fork out £1.10 for the JC and a walk in the cold to read your views.

DES

I no longer live in England (TG)but I assume you're referring merely to the secular community leadership here, Mel. If so, I'm not surprised to read this. Too many "enlightened" Jews in England have eschewed Jewish religious values in favour of self interest and 'keeping their heads down' through assimilation. Prove me wrong!

phil

Michelle
November 27th, 2010 12:20pm
""Why should he be listening to some wealthy Jew in Hampstead? Is Hampstead suddenly in firing range of kassam rockets from Gaza?

Can fund raising for Israel suddenly buy you a place in the Knesset?"""

------------------------------

What a sad example of chutzpah to tell a fellow Jew that he needs to make aliyah in order to be listened to.Your remarks show the lack of consideration for any other point of view ,rather than from an achesh chayil who understands that those that work on behalf of the Jewish people do not always agree on which is the best way .You are certainly not a person whose ideas I would like to take into account when processing the thoughts of so many differing view points .Is it any wonder peace is so difficult to find when those like you speak in such an ignorant manner .

C.Gee

greenie
November 27th, 2010 11:08am:

"... i await an ad hominem attack."

Hating, appalled, distressed - you are leaking so much emotion, I fear you are in no fit state to receive a kick in the hominems, if you have any. Get up, blow your nose, and march right over to the Palestinian martyrs recruitment office. Hop on a flotilla, stop a bulldozer, throw stones, launch a home-made rocket. You show the world unfairness. Rub their faces in it. Ram it down their throats, before slitting them. Stuff your suicide vest with nails of unfairness and explode it on a school bus. And please accept this salt for your wounds.

Larry in Tel Aviv

The Jewish Diaspora leadership in the English language is all of a piece - the UK, the US, Canada, Australia and South Africa: appeasers, cowards and brainless twerps for the most part.

To a commentator above who thinks there are no ASHamed Jews in Israel, unfortunately there are plenty of them here too. And we have less excuse, we are in the cross-hairs.

This is not just a Jewish phenomenon, it is a human one - to betray your own kind. There are always those who side with their own people's enemies to curry their favour and win approva, acceptance and make it easier for themselves, if only in the short-term. Native Indians betrayed their own people to European conquerors in the Americas, there were Nazi sympathisers in Allied countries during the war, plenty blacks in South Africa collaborated with the apartheid regime. It's universal unfortunately.

Truthtriumphs

Greenie.
Just a bit more about what Israel is doing to the "poor Palestinians", to add to C.Gee's excellent comments.
After you've read the link, do tell us your thoughts.
On second thoughts, don't bother!
http://cifwatch.com/2010/11/26/180000-palestinians-treated-in-israeli-hospitals-in-2010-harriet-sherwood-yawns/

charles soper

Perhaps all the brave British Jews have already emigrated (present company nobly excepted), but the battle is not yet lost here. I expect it will rage more fiercely in the years to come, as Islamist paranoia of the kind one witnesses frequently in the Middle East goes mainline. This is no time for chocolate soldiers.

Joey

Well said. Hopefully he will have enough dignity to resign.

Carol Gould

These are the times I miss Hugo Gryn and Lord Jacobovits. The USA has no leaders, either.

Derek BLADES

MaxSceptic thinks that Jews in Britain have three alternatives of which the first is to "... become secular Britons first and foremost and lose all the religious & cultural baggage associated with diaspora Jews."

I suppose an alternative Max does not mention is to maintain all the religious & cultural baggage associated with diaspora Jews and to play as full as a part as they wish in Briatin’s cultural and political life. That’s what most British Jews I know are doing and it seems to work for them.

Hey Mister !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju9AIZHKNJQ&feature=channel

Once he gets going its just like real life.
Reminds me of Loftus and Aarons

wolf t

The root cause of self hatred inherent in the pronouncements against Israel by self-proclaimed "Jewish leaders" lies in the attempts of attaining class status in a class conscious society. Now these same Jews, generally despised by all levels of British society for being Jewish are despised by Jews worldwide for their cravenly despicable mouthings, too.

Avraham Reiss

Phil,
"What a sad example of chutzpah to tell a fellow Jew that he needs to make aliyah in order to be listened to."

The chutzpah is all yours, for replying to Michelle without understanding what she was saying, or alternately, for twisting her words to suit your opinion.

It was obvious from Michelle's post that she said that the right to influence actions regarding Israel, is solely the right of those who live there, serve in the IDF, endanger their lives, pay high taxes, etc etc.

She quite rightly pointed out that Kesset votes cannot be bought.

Understand before you comment.

Miranda Rose Smith

I urge all supporters of Israel on this website, and you, Ms. Phillips, to contact people like Murray and Shepherd and thank them. Happy Chanukah to all.

Adam B.

Blades, do you know any British Jews - living in France?

And do you still claim to speak for them all (indeed, all Jews in the West) - as you did on a previous blog?

EDDIE

THIS DEBATE IS ALL VERY WELL BUT THE FUNDAMENTAL POINT IS THAT THE ARAB WORLD IS NOT INTERESTED IN LIVING "SIDE BY SIDE". IT WANTS THE TOTAL ELIMINATION OF WORLD JEWRY. IT HAS SAID SO TIME AND TIME AGAIN YET STILL SO MANY ARE IN DENIAL. IT REALLY IS INCREDIBLE.THIS IS A ZERO SUM GAME.

Andy Gill

I suspect that Jews like Mick Davis are largely ruled by fear. They think that if they humbly grovel to the British establishment they, and the community they purport to represent, will be left alone.

I guess they thought the same sort of thing in Germany too.

Personally, I am ashamed of them and their supine apologetics.

Avraham Reiss

Mick Davis is the very epitomy of the Jewish Exile mentality. This was the type of person who refused to return from Babylon to build the Second Temple, because he had a good life there.
As for his chutzpah in saying that Israel 'disturbs' his way of life, as the old saying goes, everyone does youknowwhat in the swimming pool - but Davis does it from the diving board!

Truthtriumphs

Blades.
We are still waiting from you to hear why the Arabs attacked Israel when she was behind the 1967 lines.
According to you, all that is required for peaceful co-existence is for Israel to withdraw to those lines---- you haven't answered because you know it's a lie.
Case proved.

just Louise

Very well said, Edgar Davidson!
We need the kind of Jewish leadership here that one of Davis's recent critics provided in Australa and now in Israel (where Davis should buzz off to if he wants to carp about Netanyahu) - see
daphneanson.blogspot.com/2010/11/princes-in-israel-and-trembling.html

Wm. H.

"Substance, content, reason, logic - that’s the stuff I go for."

"Hating, appalled, distressed - you are leaking so much emotion, I fear you are in no fit state to receive a kick in the hominems, if you have any. Get up, blow your nose, and march right over to the Palestinian martyrs recruitment office. Hop on a flotilla, stop a bulldozer, throw stones, launch a home-made rocket. You show the world unfairness. Rub their faces in it. Ram it down their throats, before slitting them. Stuff your suicide vest with nails of unfairness and explode it on a school bus. And please accept this salt for your wounds."

?

Carol Gould

In the space of a week Melanie is called 'egregious' by Rabbi David Goldberg and a 'witch' by the Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK. Sad, sad and scary...
http://www.mpacuk.org/story/271110/zionist-witch-has-her-broom-taken-away.html

phil

Avraham Reiss
November 28th, 2010 11:21am
Your words reflect so much of the problems Israel has ,in that the crazy right wing orthodox thought is allowed to fester because the votes are needed in order to govern.I need no advice from the likes of you who has just popped up when I have defended Israel and praised her here for years .Just so you will have some enlightenment, if it was not for the Diaspora ,and their never flinching support for Israel ,even before its independence ,Israel may never have managed to be born .
---------------------------------
It is indeed you and your like who need to reflect on what you do and say, for it is surely the bigots who hold back the peace .It is a shame that you never saw the TV programme by Ross Kemp which showed so clearly that there are insane haters on both sides of the borders.I accept that the lunatics from Hamas behave as they do,because they are what they are , but I will never accept the insane blind bigotry of the militant settlers who are a stain on what I see as the Jewish way of life .Just to finish Avraham ,Israel accepts happily the help and support that comes from the Diaspora with love ,we do not need those like you to insult us with spittle flecked nonsense .My family has given its blood in defence of Eretz Yisroel ,what have you done apart from shout ?

phil

TT ,just Louise ,C,Geeand many others who have written on these threads for years ,as have ,in support for ISRAEL , you have surprised me this week because you have always shown yourselves to be the sort of Jews that I so admire ,and still do ,so why have you shown such emotion when it is suggested that there is more than one way of thinking what is best for Israel .I am not talking about those that wish to offer unfair criticism ,I have no time for those either, but some people cannot agree blindly to every action that takes place regardless of right or wrong .Our culture is strong enough to debate and offer different views ,not the vicious remarks that have stained this thread by some who have never shown their faces here before .

C.Gee

phil:

“The future peace depends on negotiation and dual accommodation ,that is what to strive for ,not fighting amongst ourselves.”

This, taken together with your advice on how to negotiate in a prior thread - saving the face of the other side - suggests that you have decided that peace is the universal goal. Compromise on land, and who lives where on it, is all that is standing in the way of a treaty. I do not believe that peace is the goal of the Arabs, and should not be the goal of Arab sympathisers, nor, of Jews, Israel or anybody else, particularly those who profess to care about the plight of Arabs living in refugee camps.

I ask you to readdress the desirability of peace. I am fully persuaded that the Palestinian leadership - of dubious legitimacy and unable to deliver on promises - will not sign an accord which recognizes Israel’s de jure borders (wherever located), unless Arabs have the right of return which will de facto negate the borders of a Jewish-majority state. Even were Israel to sign such an accord, it would still have to defend itself from what will be an intensified internal insurrection and greatly strengthened external attacks. I expect there will soon be a unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood with provisional borders based on the armistice lines. This will make no difference to Israel’s duty to protect itself, so the fighting will continue. However one looks at it, Israel will have to defend violence against it - no matter whether the territory is called Israel or Palestine or Occupied Territories or Disputed Territories. The status quo, a low-level war, financed in part by America and Europe, is probably the least costly in lives lost or impoverishment - for all.

The “fighting amongst ourselves” - Westerners? British Jews? Diaspora Jews?, Diaspora v. Israeli Jews?, Isreali v. Israeli ? - over the terms of the peace accord (borders, population transfers, recognition of Jewish nature of Israel etc.) is even more irksome when seen from the point of view that any peace accord on terms currently being negotiated - all of which save the face of policides - would be a catastrophe.

C.Gee

phil

“...so why have you shown such emotion when it is suggested that there is more than one way of thinking what is best for Israel...”

Please stop wringing your hands, my friend ( I hope).

What is best for Israel is secondary to there being an Israel. My (very strong) emotional attachment is to its survival as a nation. But most of the sighing and weeping, the gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts comes from Jewish, gentile, Israeli and non-Israeli compassion hucksters, moral narcissists, sanctimonious poseurs who claim to be true friends of Jews and Israel, those willfully ignorant Jew-disposers (let them live there or there, but not here ), all of whom know that what is best for Israel, what Israel should be, or what Jews should be, exactly matches, like some color-coordinated accessory hand-bag, their own self-image, their own political and cultural identity.

Si, N

We have here the vilest assemblage of ignorant, arrogant, gloating, mocking, self-pitying cretins intent on baiting and mocking those that have retained some humanity - yet any attempt to counter their hateful bile is blocked by the moderator.

Pure appeasement.

Shame

A.

Wm. H.
Bear in mind that he does not intend what he says to be taken seriously (just as well, I hear you say). The purpose is simply to "get your goat". This may seem puerile to you, but it does effectively stifle dissent.

phil

C.Gee
November 28th, 2010 6:56pm
-That was very depressing,I live with the hope that one day there will be peace ,and as you referred to I know that backing someone up against a wall will ensure a fight ,as will one side losing face .Do we really have to give up on peace ,my fears are that those that have written here like Avraham and Michelle,intransigents, are a huge obstacle ,Arabs read what we write and see the hatred projected towards them and back it comes, a never ending circle .
-----------------------
The Arabs are not flavour of the month for me either,nor do I think it will be them who eventually make a gesture like SADAT ,but you will remember out of nowhere peace arrived with Egypt and Jordan .I am not so arrogant as to tell you that I have the solution ,but I do believe there is one out there and it will come from education,compromise and confidence ,on both sides .Many of us who write here know well that we all care deeply for Israel and its people,but in some cases our opinions for what is best are bound to differ .I respect people like the ones I have mentioned earlier and apologise to anyone I left out ,but I have no respect for those who just criticise others and care nothing for another's genuine opinion ,right or wrong .Avraham can vote how he likes for the queen of the settlers ,neither of them would ever get mine ,shalom CGEE I KNOW YOU CARE .

Avraham Reiss

Phil,
The following epithets appear in your latest epistle:
crazy right wing orthodox, the likes of you, you and your like, bigots, lunatics, insane blind bigotry, militant settlers, a stain on what I see , spittle flecked nonsense ... ...
For someone not living in the dangers that surround us here in Israel, you possess a very violent vocabulary (or maybe it possesses you?)

As for "My family has given its blood in defence of Eretz Yisroel ,what have you done apart from shout ?"

1. Maybe someone from your family, but certainly not you.
2. What have I done? I live in Israel, IDF service, combat unit, high taxes - and most unpleasant of all: lectures from "the likes of you" who haven't got what it takes to live here, so shout to cover it up.

sleeping dolls

CGee
"I ask you to readdress the desirability of peace."

These are surely the most revolting words ever written.

You talk about a catastrophe like you're not already in the middle of one. How else would you explain the fact that you have not only lost your humanity, but you are proud of the fact?

phil

Gee
November 28th, 2010 7:50pm
Phil

Phil's words “...so why have you shown such emotion when it is suggested that there is more than one way of thinking what is best for Israel...”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cgees response ---------------------What is best for Israel is secondary to there being an Israel. My (very strong) emotional attachment is to its survival as a nation
-----------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

C GEE You have just put forward your own personal viewpoint ,do you not allow that you might be wrong ? I have not objected to your views and yet unless I misunderstand you ,You have placed me in a category of -well I WILL NOT REPEAT IT ALL BUT "HUCKSTER"!!!
----------
I have no intention of demeaning myself by indulging language like this so sadly our discussion will have to end,but I am surprised at you .

phil

Avraham Reiss
November 28th, 2010 9:49pm
Does that make you a person who seeks peace Avraham ,I am not impressed by your credentials ,they are compulsory ,peace is optional as is bigotry .

kate b

Channukah is a great example of how poor the leadership was then, nothing changes - the 'radical right' Maccabees (who believed in the truth of their name) came thru for Jews then, as the same will in our time.

Truthtriumphs

Si,N.
We have here the vilest assemblage of ignorant, arrogant, mocking, gloating self-pitying cretins.....

It certainly takes one to know one.
Translated... your fury is borne of a complete inability to win the argument because the truth always triumphs in the end, there for all to see.

C.Gee

phil:

There are people who believe that what is best for Israel is that it should be the first nation to volunteer its own dissolution - on the grounds that that is in the best/true interests of Jews, and of humanity. Yes, I am of a different opinion. I certainly will not dance about beseeching these people to believe that some Jews in Israel are very nice people and deserve to have a state, despite the presence of other Jews who give Jews a bad name. Pandering to those who think Israel is a Nazi state by pleading for equal - or even proportionate - compassion with the Arabs is demeaning and futile. Ludicrous. Trying to prove Israel's fundamental decency is also a waste of time. I know it is tough to be told that compassion is not what counts in the debate on Israel's survival, but it is so. To ashamed Jews and anti-semites, Israel and its supporters can never be compassionate nor worthy of compassion for as long as Israel fights to defend itself.

sleeping dolls:

Peace on the terms being offered is not desirable because it would not be peace.
You should read more widely, if you think my words here are the most revolting ever written.
Every time, over centuries, Jews en masse have been blackballed from humanity, it was a precursor to a catastrophe. Humanitarians are busy now demonizing Israel as inhumane to justify its elimination from the family of nations. Your informing me that I have lost my humanity says much about your own. Like compassion, humanity is invoked most often and noisily by hypocrites in favor of brutes.

Anthony Jaylicht

Phil,
"I am not impressed by your credentials ..."
- you aren't someone we have - or want - to impress with our "credentials".

You live outside of Israel and think you can purchase the right to interfere with our lives. Why don't you get on with your own life and leave us alone?

"I love Israel and wish only for its wellbeing" - yeah, but to come and live here in Israel? Let's not get carried away with our emotions. "You Israelis only fight and die for Israel, but WE donate money! And I sent other members of my family there, so that makes me a full Israeli. Stand up when you address me ..."

brass neck

On the day after Melanie and the Spectator apologised and paid “substantial” damages for falsely accusing Mohammad Sawalha of anti-Semitism on this blog, it is rather splendid to read Melanie shamelessly accusing people of blackening the names of others.

A modest irony, and one I certainly appreciated

phil

Anthony Jaylicht
November 29th, 2010 5:29am -grow up ,that is a pathetic and childish remark on a thread where serious people are speaking their minds about what they believe is best for Israel,Your words are nothing new and are as ridiculous as when they were first spoken .

phil

C.Gee
November 29th, 2010 4:20am You have again written what you think which is what we do here but you have not addressed what I said and is nothing to do with anything I described .MY message was simple ,we must be able to discuss without the venom I have seen on this thread and look inwards to see if anything was wrong -I never asked anyone to love us .

Si, N

Truthtakenaroundthe backandgivenagoodkicking reckons my 'fury is borne of a complete inability to win the argument because the truth always triumphs in the end'. Not quite old crap - the truth is barred by the moderator so jerks like you are given free reign with your dispicable views.

Clapton help us!

michael

The history of closed shop communities, however 'establishment',is of leadership misguided by vested interest.
At least the Jewish community has a very loud voice that isn't ignored.

Anthony Jaylicht

Phil,
"serious people are speaking their minds about what they believe is best for Israel"

- serious people? - you aren't one of them. For the eighteen Euro per annum that you donate to the State of Israel, you really think that you have bought a say in how we will live and die?

I realise that for an Israeli to be killed takes less than a minute, whereas you worked quite a few hours for your eighteen Euro, and so your contribution is naturally greater.

Fortunately for Israel, it just doesn't work that way.

Have you solved all the problems of Anglo-Jewry, that we now benefit from your advice?

sleeping dolls

CGee: "Humanitarians are busy now demonizing Israel as inhumane to justify its elimination from the family of nations."

You seem to be doing that without help from anyone else:

"humanity is invoked most often and noisily by hypocrites in favor of brutes."

Do you really believe that?

phil

Anthony Jaylicht
November 29th, 2010 12:15pm
I think a trip to your psychiatrist would be a good investment,take the chip off your shoulder first and allow all the Jews all over the world to indulge their love for Israel,then ask Bibi if he agrees with the stupid remarks you just made and the insults to contributers from all over the world,,I SUSPECT HE WOULD GIVE YOU A MOUTHFUL OF EXACTLY WHAT YOU DESERVE--- btw are you one of the militant settlers who believes G-d gave you the land to the exclusion of the thoughts of anyone else .If you are ,do not bother to reply for I have no wish to hear from you again ,the ideas of baruch do not appeal to me !!!!!!!!!!

Anthony Jaylicht

Phil,
" btw are you one of the militant settlers who believes G-d gave you the land to the exclusion of the thoughts of anyone else .If you are ,do not bother to reply for I have no wish to hear from you again ,the ideas of baruch do not appeal to me !!!!!!!!!!"

You have serious problems, and I am disgusted that you should air them in public.

Your hatred of settlers, as someone who sits on his butt in exile and doesn't take part in building the Land, is sick!

I am not a settler, but even if I was you do not dictate to me where I can and cannot write.

Your attributing the actions of one man to half a million people is pure anti-semitic filth! Check your family tree for earlier anti-semites - such filth doesn't just appear suddenly.

Judaically you are a nonentity; someone who refuses to play the game because its too dangerous or uncomfortable, but can't stop
shouting advice from the sidelines. You remind me of those two old codgers from "The Muppet Show" who sat in the balcony making irrelevant remarks. Maybe you'd be better off spending your time watching Muppet Show reruns - the readers here would certainly be better off!

phil

sleeping dolls
November 29th, 2010 12:44pm --C GEE has always shown himself to be a real supporter of Israel both knowledgeable and sincere,my purpose is not to castigate him in any way but to ask him to open his mind to the possibility that we are less than perfect on some occasions .Emotions are running strongly on this subject with accusations by some that I can only say are so off the wall that they should be ignored .Israel has always had moral support from the Diaspora along with contributions both to reclaim the swamps and settle impoverished immigrants ,Anthony,s words need to be ignored ,they represent the words of a few less than representative Israelis .
------------------------

Jewish people are an argumentative lot from the earliest days of the Rabbis ,most think that they know best ,but the best ,debate and discuss .At the Passover service ,thousands of year old,we ask questions and have discussions and they include the wise son ,the wicked son ,the simple son and the one too young to know ,at least then they knew we argued a lot ,I will leave you to guess if any of them are represented here .Personally I think we have added the angry and intolerant to that list ,those that think if one does not live in Israel ones opinions do not count. Yes Anthony YOU CAN DECIDE WHICH SON YOU ARE REPRESENTED BY ON THE LIST.

C.Gee

brass neck
November 29th, 2010 7:27am:

There is an irony in the fact that wanted Hamas fugitives from Israel can conduct lawfare in British courts, the favoured forum for Islamists to extort money and apologies from the press. There is further irony in the fact that Sawahla sued because he did not refer to Jews as "evi/noxious". This was a mistranslation for Jewish "lobby", apparently. I do not know wether the attorneys for the defense explained the pejorative connotations of "lobby", but then having a bad opinion of Jews is not illegal. Claiming someone said something they did not, is. I do not think anyone is in any doubt as to Sawalha's opinions on Israel or Jews.

John Ware's profile of Sawalha for the BBC should give sufficient grounds to form an opinion of Sawalha - and his opinions.

phil

AJ -----""Your hatred of settlers, as someone who sits on his butt in exile and doesn't take part in building the Land, is sick!

I am not a settler, but even if I was you do not dictate to me where I can and cannot write.

Your attributing the actions of one man to half a million people is pure anti-Semitic filth! Check your family tree for earlier anti-Semites - such filth doesn't just appear suddenly.""
-------
You really are a silly boy,and you do no justice to your patriotism with stupid accusations ,my reference is to the militant settlers as you well know try downloading Ross Kemps TV programme which shows how crazed and bigoted some of them are ,and then you might also see the wonderful Israeli people that I believe are the norm . To refer to me as anti Semitic shows what a combustible and thoughtless mind you have ,You are a Johnny come lately here ,and should have done some research before shooting off your mouth.I think it will be seen very quickly which son you represent without any help from me .Read what you like son ,start with some comics ,they might settle your mind ,other than that I have no interest in what you read ,but you surely have read some pretty ghastly stuff previously .

sleeping dolls

Anthony Jaylicht:
You told Phil: "You have serious problems, and I am disgusted that you should air them in public."

Then you say: "I am not a settler, but even if I was you do not dictate to me where I can and cannot write."

Just you who does the dictating, right? Nice.

C.Gee

Nick:

Please explain how Israel's having the bomb has been massively destabilizing, and how Iran's getting the bomb will help.

Truthtriumphs

Si,N.
"The truth is barred by the moderator so jerks like you are given free reign with your dispicible views."

Sorry to disappoint you, but I had to post a recent comment 4 times in order to get it through.
Carry on foaming at the mouth for our entertainment.
BTW, try not to be as sloppy with your spelling as you are with the facts.
It's despicable, NOT, dispicible.

Truthtriumphs.

Avraham Reiss.

You should know that Jews and non-Jews of any sensitivity and decency are deeply cognisant of the fact that Israel stands in the front line in the the defence of the civilised values that we all hold dear, and it is the Israelis who have so often paid the ultimate price.
It should be de rigeur to visit the military cemeteries in Israel to pay homage to those many, many young people who sacrificed their todays so that we should all have our tomorrows.
The disgusting criticism of Israel's minimal efforts to deal with brutal enemies of civilisation should be replaced by our eternal gratitude.

Israel is the canary in the mine.

C.Gee

My comment addressed to "Nick" should have been posted on the new thread.

sleeping dolls

Truthlimpsoff:
"Israel stands in the front line in the the defence of ..."

Very sloppy work from the blog's chief grammar nerd. Tut tut.

sleeping dolls

Truthlimpsoff:
Almost missed this one too!
"de rigeur" ...!!??

Look it up, there's a good chap!

Of course, there is an argument that simple mistakes like this do nothing to affect the reading experience, and so are inconsequential. But I know how important these things are to you!

phil

Si, N
November 28th, 2010 7:58pm

We have here the vilest assemblage of ignorant, arrogant, gloating, mocking, self-pitying cretins intent on baiting and mocking those that have retained some humanity - yet any attempt to counter their hateful bile is blocked by the moderator.

Pure appeasement.

Shame--

---------------
SPEAK FOR YOURSELF SIN WE DO NOT NEED YOUR SELF PORTRAIT ,THE REST OF US ARE OK ,JUST ARGUING .

Si, N

sleeping dolls
November 30th, 2010 8:46am
&
sleeping dolls
November 30th, 2010 8:53am

Lol

Okey

greenie, here are some of the things that Israel is 'doing to the 'Palestinians':
. providing livelihoods
. providing education
. providing freedom of expression.
.providing medical services
.providing vocational training
.providing due legal process

A.

C.Gee
November 29th, 2010 4:25pm

...But you don't have a sworn statement from the man that he's an anti-semite?

Jerry

Shaun Harbord wrote, "Dredful how people think for themselves isn't it?"

I cannot agree with you more! These spokesmen have spoken for themselves, but not for the people that they say they represent.

Let them agree to speak only for themselves, and no one else!

Jerry

greenie wrote, "people hate what israel is doing to the palestinians"

And the alternative that you offer is...let the Palestinians do it to the Jews!

Peter G.

Melanie, I share your concern for the survival of a viable Jewish state, the world should demand no less given the appalling persecution of Jewish people. But given the creation of a State of Israel it should not now be expanded at the expense of Palestinians who have lived there for a thousand years or more.
Why not explain what your vision is for the Israel of the future?
Do you accept that it should remain within its present boundaries or are you a surrogate for those American and North African settlers who appear to demand a greater state? Perhaps we should be told in your next article.

Avraham Reiss

Truthtriumphs:
"Israel is the canary in the mine" - that was very good. I will quote it in the future.
I agree with your comments. Phil and "sleeping dolls" are just part of the sickness, there are many healthy people who are not heard from.

James Hodson

"‘extremist’, ‘Islamophobic’, ‘right-wing’"

These three descriptive words essentially mean that the left disagrees with whatever those so described might have said.

phil

Avraham Reiss-November 30th, 2010 9:57pm.-Reclining happily with your thumb in your mouth feeling sorry for yourself again.You do not know a friend from an enemy.
It is indeed those like you and anthony who are so totally blinkered that is the problem on the Israeli side .I want peace silly boy and peace is made with one,s enemies -get it ?

Truthtriumphs

http://www.danielpearl.org/news_and_press/articles/dialogue_of_deaf.html
Phil.
"Peace is made with one's enemies".
Not if the enemy's condition for peace is one's own demise.
I urge you to read the article from the above link--- you will find that the scales will fall from your eyes.
You could not find a more wise, gentle and humane individual who craves peace than Judea Pearl, but if he came to the conclusion that there is no interlocutor on the other side, then that is good enough reason to be pessimistic about the chances of peace.
Read it and digest it, then give us your thoughts.

Truthtriumphs

Peter G.
"...the state of Israel should not now be expanded at the expense of the Palestinians, who have lived there for a thousand years or more".

Wrong, wrong and wrong.
You are in serious need of a crash course on the history of the region.
The statement above demonstrates the success of Arab propaganda, and that if you repeat the lie often enough, it becomes the accepted truth.
First, the word Palestinian was applied to the Jewish inhabitants of the land, prior to 1948.
After 1948 the Arabs living there became the "Palestinians", and the Palestinian Jews became "Israelis".
Second, the Holy land was vitually empty of inhabitants for hundreds of years until the first "aliyah" ie immigration of mainly Russian Jews fleeing persecution and violent pogroms at the end of the 19th.century, followed by the second wave of immigration at the beginning of the 20th. century.
Until that period there were only small numbers of Jews and Beduin. Indeed, there has been a continuous, verifiable Jewish presence there since Temple times.
The barren, inhospitable nature of the land, and the dearth of inhabitants was well described and documented by explorers and travellers to the region--- read Mark Twain's "Innocents Abroad".
It was only when Jewish immigration began to provide economic opportunities, initially through cultivation of the barren land, that Arabs from surrounding countries, mainly Egypt and Syria, began to immigrate in large numbers, to take advantage of the opportunities which Jewish industriousness afforded.
Many of today's Palestinian Arabs still have Egyptian and Syrian family names to prove it.
You should also be aware that it is only the Jews who had dominion in the land, and that the two sovereign Jewish states existed for over 1,000 years in what today is Judea (hence the word, Jew) and Samaria.
The re-establishment of the Jewish state of Israel after 2,000 years was at the expense of NO-ONE. Quite the contrary, it has afforded unprecedented opportunities for all its citizens.

Okey

Phil, you're mistaken: peace is not made with one's enemies until after one has defeated them. This is particularly appropriate in the case of those Arabs and other Moslems who are genocidal or who wish to deprive the Jews of their rights, that is, among others, the "Palestinian Authority/Fatah" and Hamas.

phil

TT and Okey I have read the PEARL POST and of course I agree with you ,but we must seek and end to this terrible state of affairs -- he writes
---------------------
"But, looking ahead at the plentiful attempts to build bridge to the Muslim world, one wonders whether this outpouring of energy and goodwill should not first be channelled toward hammering out basic common goals, followed by educational programs and media campaigns that promote them, rather than glossing over a fundamental disagreement of such importance. Failure to address uncomfortable differences has a terrible way of extracting higher costs later on.""-----
-------------------------
THAT IS NO DIFFERENCE TO WHAT I have been saying all along and yet I get hate mail from Anthony and Avraham whose type I SEE AS MUCH AN OBSTACLE TO PEACE AS THE ARABS .I believe education and an Arab leader like Sadat is probably the only way .I will say however that I have never thought that a solution to the Israeli /Palestinian problem will stop the Muslims all over the world fighting and killing one another ,ours is a side show and if it ever finishes life will continue as normal for them Shias killing Sunni etc etc -TT I do not think you have ever doubted where my heart lies in this matter but if we, apart from them, cannot express our thoughts and ideas I really fear for us .shalom Phil

Harold

Truthtriumphs
December 2nd, 2010 12:54am
You have been quoted chapter and verse on this. You have clearly taken the trouble not to follow up the references. That you persist in your bizarre fictions makes your recent slurs about Ilan Pappe all the more comic.

phil

Harold
December 2nd, 2010 10:59am --are you unable to keep your nose out of our business .We place no value on your opinions especially when it concerns us and definitely not you .

n

Good article Melanie.

It simply amazes me that while us "Goy" are quite happy to support Israel to the hilt, others in world Jewry seem inclined to vote for thier own destruction.

Truthtriumphs

Phil.
One of the great Roman emperors had this message of advice :---
"War is more dangerous still when disguised as peace".
It remains as true today as it was thousands of years ago, especially so in the case of the Israel/Palestine conflict.
As Judea Pearl came to realise, you cannot have a dialogue with someone who refuses to engage with you.

phil

Truthtriumphs
December 3rd, 2010 12:00am

""As Judea Pearl came to realise, you cannot have a dialogue with someone who refuses to engage with you.••
-------------------
TT do you think we should abandon any hope of peace ,we so obviously have our own intransigents and blinkered minds as has been demonstrated here by ,to what I presume ,are young hotheads who engage mouth before brain .There are those who still hope that we will find a way and there must be some brave souls over the border too .

Gordon Ross

Both Truthtriumphs and Judea Pearl are undoubtedly right.

As an example of those who Phil describes as "intransigents and blinkered minds" who have "demonstrated here" and who he presumes to be "young hotheads", let me say that I am far from being "young". I am probably a whole lot older than he is !

phil

Gordon Ross
December 3rd, 2010 8:32pm
Gordon with respect you need to read more carefully what I said .I am not for anyone who knocks Israel ,but I did say we all need to look with open minds at the problems that confront us and not to just assume that we are always right on every matter.Castigating everyone who disagrees with a course of action is just a recipe for disaster ,debate and prove them wrong ,but listen please .

Truthtriumphs

Phil.
Read this and understand why there cannot be peace in the foreseeable future.
http://cifwatch.com/2010/12/04/what-the-guardian-wont-report-al-jazeera-owned-website-muslim-net-celebrates-human-carnage-caused-by-carmel-fire/#more-15754

The "moderate" Palestine Authority, led by the "moderate" holocaust-denying Abbas, teaches their children to hate Jews, teaches them that Israel is all Palestine and one day will be theirs, has just made public their "research" that says that the Western Wall has nothing to do with any Jewish temple, has the death penalty for any citizen who sells land to a Jew, and whose police have often been implicated in terror attacks against Israelis.
Further, Abbas has said that not one Arab in 1,000 years would ever recognise Israel as a Jewish state.
And you think you can make peace with such people?
Such a peace wouldn't be worth the paper it is written on, but the relinquishing of territory in pursuit of an illusory peace would precipitate war, in which Israel would be infinitely more vulnerable than it is today, just like it did in Gaza and lebanon.
It is the kind of peace Chamberlain advocated with Hitler in his infamous dictum "peace in our time".

I also think it outrageous that you should equate "extremists" on both sides, as if their were an equivalence between those who murder Jews and terrorise them (on their side) and those who simply want to live peacefully on land that is designated, wrongly, as illegal for Jews to live on,(on our side).

You have also completely misunderstood the message of Pearl's article.
At the end of the day, people like yourself who mean well, but whose opinions are a danger to the Jewish people, are not much different from those who mean ill, in the effect that their opinions have.

phil

Truthtriumphs
December 5th, 2010 10:10am sorry been busy.I suggest you try to watch Ross Kemps TV programme about visiting Gaza AND Israel ,you will see the best and the worst of both sides .I still remember when relations with Egypt were at a low Sadat made the journey to Israel in fear of his life from both peoples ,you should not so easily forget how things can change when two such enemies as Begin and Sadat can rise above the hatred.That peace has lasted in spite of the efforts of the evil ones to rupture it .I will honour the memories of those two people by still believing peace can come when decent people still retain that ambition.
=============================
I was saddened to read your last paragraph ,born out of frustration no doubt,but I could think the same about your opinions ,but knowing your loyalty I prefer not to .It is in fact the wide eyed thoughtless hatred that emanates from those like avraham and anthony that preclude any atmosphere of calm that may occur .The terrorists can say and do whatever they can ,they will be marginalized nobodies when peace is signed ,when in fact the Palestinian kids can have a real education from real teachers , with full bellies and when toys rather than guns become their choice.When will it happen ,I have no idea but certainly not whilst we spit out hatred and intransigence .