The false consciousness of western civilisation

Neil Turner

Essential reading for CoffeeHousers on Geert Wilders

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3991733,00.html

rippon

Melanie says:
“Poor old Gilligan. Demon de jour.” … “Am I mistaken, or was it Muslims who bombed the Underground system? Or is it a crime to mention that now?”

Melanie is confusing religious motivation with political motivation. The 7/7 bombers were +politically+ motivated by revenge for the Iraq invasion, seeking to bring to London streets a taste of the terror that we have unleashed on Baghdad’s streets.

Moreover, although Gilligan is tremendously exercised about Islamism, there is a crucial point of concurrence between him and the 7/7 bombers: both assert that our Iraq invasion is based on lies (e.g. “sexed-up” dossier).

Veracity

The roots of Christianity are Judaism and its teachings. Without Judaism and the Old Testament Christianity is nothing .Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi who taught Judaism . All that made Britain 'Great' comes from that teaching and without it our society collapses. The more we embraced the teaching of the Bible the greater we became , see the great reformers of society in our History . As we move away from out Biblical roots the more debased we are becoming . Withour vision the people perish . Non one can deny how debased our society is and should we not question why devout people be they Christian, Muslim , Jewish or any other are seeking desperately to protect their values and their children from that debasement .,

oflife

@Veracity Spot on!

C.Gee

rippon:

The 7/7 bombers identified religiously, not politically, with the Iraqis otherwise why bother with revenge. The bombers were not Iraqi.

In any case, Islam is a political ideology, whatever claims it makes on being divinely inspired.

Last, motivation does not mitigate terrorism.

Larkers

rippon: "... seeking to bring to London streets a taste of the terror that we have unleashed on Baghdad’s streets".

Terror unleashed certainly, but not by this "we" but a them "we"; the radicals of Al'Queda in Mesopotamia and the rump of the Sunni Ba'ath Party. One such piece of "terror unleashed upon the streets of Baghdad" was when a man drew up in a van and beckoned a crowd of men seeking day labouring work to gather around him. When the number was sufficient for his religiousy inspired purposes he detonated his bomb, killing nearly fifty. He did this not to make his (?) country free but as a slave to the same ideology which 'inspired' the London bombers and all the others before and since. 'rippon' is not anti-war. 'rippon' supports the war aims of the enemies of the open society.

Roy

Unfortunately it is the Christian belief of turning the other cheek, never imagining there are some who would take advantage of it … that is a core mistake. Never thinking anyone can possibly be so rotten. Never dreaming there are people in this world of ours given all the kindness imaginable, would in the end betray us. It is also unfortunate that the clock ticks on and no penny drops. The longer this period of accelerating appeasement continues the harder it becomes to do anything about it.

tiki

Rippon, the 7/7 bombers, the 9/11 killers, all the other suicide murderers....they don't kill in the name of Jesus, but in the name of Allah. By the way, most Muslims/Christians and Innocents in the Arab Streets (not only Bagdad)have been killed by other 'Muslims,
about 13 Million in the last 70 years. Stop your ignorance and learn some history.

Steve

'veracity'
"As we move away from out Biblical roots the more debased we are becoming"!!!

You really need to read some history. I suggest you start with the reformation and all the religious splendour that was inspired by it.

De-bowelling, burning, be-heading... all in the name of 'true' 'christianity'. What values!

Nelson J

It's odd about Peter Oborne, isn't it? He's so sound on politics, but when it comes to Islamism he's away with the fairies.

the coherence lies only in the dislike of Islam (nice)

C Gee
“The 7/7 bombers identified religiously, not politically, with the Iraqis otherwise why bother with revenge. The bombers were not Iraqi.
“In any case, Islam is a political ideology, whatever claims it makes on being divinely inspired."
Your first sentence distinguishes between the religious and the political and says the 7/7 bombers identified politically, not religiously.

Your second sentence seems to be saying that Islam is not a religion, just a political ideology, and therefore to assert that (at least when it comes to Islam) one can’t distinguish between the religious and the political.

So I’m left wondering, which is it? Is it an important distinction, or no distinction at all?
As for your last sentence,
“Last, motivation does not mitigate terrorism”
I rather suspect you don’t believe this. I could be wrong, but I suspect you might find all sorts of instances in which motivations would in fact mitigate. The assassination Hamas commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai earlier this year comes to mind. Are you saying whatever the motivations of those involved this could not be justified? If so perhaps you could confirm.

Pot Head

The Christian butchers of Srebrenica killed 8000 Muslims with the name of Jesus on their lips.

All religions are barbarous affronts to humanity.

Derek Pasquill

Despite what Harry's Place seems to think, it would appear that the Lambertinis are in the ascendancy: you only have to witness the shenanigans of the West Midlands Police to appreciate how Islamization of the UK proceeds at full throttle, aided and abetted by supine politicians, journalists and other ne'er-do-wells.

Stuart Seacole Smith

Boris and others cast aside our heritage, culture and values far too lightly. We in the west are rapidly moving towards standing for nothing, and valuing nothing. Just being societies with no identity, which have been demoralised from within.

When western modern but directionless navel-gazing society comes into conflict with a backward but fairly cohesive and directed ideology like islam, there is no guarantee whatsoever that modernity will trump backwardness, or that enlightenment will overcome ignorant and blinkered beliefs.

At least, that's the case unless the west stands up firmly both at home and abroad for what it believes in. But do expediency-driven western politicians even know what that is? I don't think anyone knows what that is.

Those on the left who have always dreamed of smashing western culture, institutions, "hegemony" etc should feel very proud. Though I doubt many of them realise either how "successful" they've already been, or even what role they've played.

Mel P can rightly call it false consciousness, but you could also just call it hopeless confusion.

Adam B.

Pot Head, you will find that far more people have been killed by anti-religious doctrines during the last century. Your point proves nothing. Religions divide people? Yes, they can. So do ideas. Better ban ideas then.

JohnB

Boris Johnston 'thoughtful'? Come on Melanie, he hasn't a brain in his head. Remember he wrote an article in the Telegraph supporting Obama. QED

Veracity

Perhaps you should give up the 'pot', Pot Head .. I was referring to 'Great' Britain, not the rest of the world. It seems too that Steve should do some reading about Shaftesbury, Barnardo, John Newton , Muller the founder of the Red Cross and so on but then maybe we should not blame the ignorance. Probably you are too young and were never taught about these people in school, the people who believed passionately that Christianity could change things and it did in Britain.

James Murphy

Hold on there PotHead! Surely you mean all ORGANISED religions? Conversely, the private practise of a spiritual discipline (note etymological relationship with 'disciple') is surely a benign affair? Rather in the same way, I venture to suggest, that you look upon your pot use?

Osred

Boris is a politician 1st and a (left) conservative a very very distant poor 2nd.

He is bright enough to realise that as a politician seeking to hold power in a city with the demographic of London he cannot repudiate but must 'celebrate' any popular foreign doctrine however medieval, barbarous or fascistic.

Jack R

And it should be remembered that the Islamophilic Exeter University, which reports on 'Islamophobia' (that Islam-invented word) receives considerable funding from Islamic regimes in the Middle East.

As Robin Simcox reported on the 'Conservative Home' site (11 Feb, 2010):

"More on Islamist funding of UK universities"
Excerpt:-
"A story on a similar topic" [to Durham Univ] "has been uncovered by the Global Muslim Brotherhood Report, a website which monitors the activities of the clerical fascist organisation. They reveal that the European Muslim Research Centre at the University of Exeter was launched after funding provided by Islam Expo and the Cordoba Foundation. As the Brotherhood Report website states:

‘The Cordoba Foundation was founded by Anas Al-Tikriti who also serves as the Foundation’s Chief Executive. Al-Tikriti is a leader in the British Muslim Initiative and a former leader of the Muslim Association of Britain, both organizations being part of the U.K. Muslim Brotherhood... IslamExpo is an event that is strongly associated with the global Muslim Brotherhood and has been supported by organizations such as the British Muslim Initiative, the Federation of Islamic Organizations in Europe (FIOE) the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB) and the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB).’

"According to the NEFA Foundation, FIOE is also a Brotherhood front.

"Universities are allowing themselves to be funded by some of the most undemocratic, anti-Western sources around. And in the context of the government’s recent announcement that it is set to cut over £500m in university funding next year, expect things to get a lot worse."

Michael White

Does anyone have an approximate ratio of killings of non-muslims by muslims regardless of cause, as against killings of muslims by non-muslims, regardless of cause? Limited to, say, the past 150 years.

Richard

What specific form should the reinvigoration of the Judaeo-Christian tradition take? Veracity mentions some of the great Christian philanphropists of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, and suggests they should be studied in schools. That's an interesting proposal (chiming with 'The Big Society', I suppose), but it would seem to lead to the advocacy of various reforming measures against poverty and injustice that would normally be denounced here as do-gooding or the nanny-state. And, of course, the historical philanphropic model would have to be adapted to a society no longer led by aristocrats.

Also, how is the question of whether a reinvigoration of this tradition would be beneficial in social and political terms - that is, in secular terms - to be separated from the question of religious belief itself? What if one sees the secular benefits but cannot, intellectually and spiritually, find one's way to belief?

wonderer

@Derek Pasquill
December 1st, 2010 10:19am. Yes, and I wonder what's in store for us in some areas if we get elected Police and Crime Commissioners.

Richard

Before someone pounces on me, I am blushing with the realisation that I twice wrote 'philanphropy' for 'philanthropy'!

Stuart Seacole Smith

Michael White: while we're in the business of asking people to dash off and do some free research for us, maybe they could take a gander at figures for killings of muslims by muslims, killings of christians by christians, and perhaps a special muslim-only category of judicial maimings or killings of muslims by muslims. Oh the potential fun we'll have poring over all this imaginary research!

sleeping dolls

Veracity: "As we move away from out Biblical roots the more debased we are becoming."

Many would find it hard to argue against these twin observations. However, are the two things - moving away from biblical teachings and becoming debased - actually linked in causal fashion?

It implies that non Christians (and presumably non jews) are incapable of being anything but debased.

Which of course is pure crap.

The bible is not a prerequisite for philanthropy. It so happens that in a time of almost universal (in British context) religious engagement, these people were, surprise surprise, also religious. The names you mention (incidentally, I believe it was Dunant who started the red cross) are also all men. It would be equally (in) valid to deduce that the more we embraced the leadership and vision of women, the more debased we have become.

Mosquito

It is not surprising that universities are pursuing this sort of agenda when you consider the Niagara of funding that is pouring in from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.Truly a Trojan horse in our midst.In the meantime as a recent and exceedingly rare Panorama venture into this area showed,extremism is on the march.In a truly horrifying revelation the programme demonstrated that even the state education system is no longer immune.

Steve

'Adam B'

It is not 'ideas' that divide people it is ideaologies. Religions like communism and nazism are all ideaologies but with the added idiocy of the super-natural.

'veracity'

The usual hogwash about Christians, after centuries of purges, wars & slavery, suddenly developed a conscience won't wash here. Being religious at a time when it was illegal and/or dangerous to be otherwise carries no credit whasoever. In these more secular times there are more non-religious aid / charitable organisations than religious ones. That is the only statistic that counts.

If you believe that the medieval crusades, the bloody assizes, the inquisition etc. would not have produced more victims if the perpetrators were 'lucky' enough to have in their posession 20th Century weapons and machinery then you are deeply dilusional.

I am very probably older than you and almost certainly educated to a higher standard, at least to one that prevents me from believing in ghosts, spirits and divine supervision.

Dave M

"As we move away from out Biblical roots the more debased we are becoming."

I quite agree with Melanie most of the time but do find it a bit odd she (and many other posters) seem to distinguish between the world religions. By that I mean, sure, extreme Islam is indeed a threat to civilized society and liberal values but both Christianity and Judaism have themselves been extreme at different stages of history. In Biblical times ultra religious scribes and religous leaders approved of stoning women for assumed sexual promiscurity. Christian zelots also massacred South American Indians. So, why are we getting into a situation whereby one religion is said to be dangerous but some religions are somehow exempt. Isn't the problem religion as a whole and the intolerance it produces? I can't help agreeing with Dawkins on this one. The problem is the whole monotheist, Abrahamic group of religions which include Christianity and Islam as well as Judaism. Recent wars have actually been caused by this conflict with Bush and the neo Cons taking the high ground against extremist clerics in Iran with Israel stuck in the middle.
I also think ancient Greece did pretty well without monotheistic religions, using philosophy and ethics which created a far more tolerant society. To overcome all this terrorist fanaticism we need to get away from this whole idea of God, Allah or Jehova "being on somebody's side" so they can then commit acts of mass murder against innocent people.

C.Gee

the coherence lies only in the dislike of Islam (nice)
December 1st, 2010 9:24am:

I was thinking of changing my pseudonym to “the incoherence lies in the backing of Islam because Muslims wish to impose it upon the West and even if Islam is an alternative global totalitarianism not 100% in line with green, feminist, gay-rights humanitarianism, it is at least a useful idiot fellow traveler in breaking down the oppressive western nation-state and making the utopian dream of global, war-free, sustainable, social justice realizable (ugh)”

Targeted assassination of a leader of a terrorist group is not terrorism - however much you wish to redefine terrorism to include Israel's actions.

Were Mohammed alive, he would be a target of his enemies for assassination, as are today the mullahs and imams of Al Qaeda inciting their death cultists to mass murder, as are the “spiritual” leaders of Hamas and Hizbollah. The divine authority, being imaginary, cannot be reached by the long arm of justice.

Derek BLADES

In a wonderfully silly reply, C.Gee tells Rippon "The 7/7 bombers identified religiously, not politically, with the Iraqis otherwise why bother with revenge."

How C.Gee knows what the 7/7 bombers identified with is beyond me and certainly beyond "C.Gee". Apparently it does not occur to his or her miniscule brain that some people seek revenge for political reasons (think Trotsky), while others do it for religious reasons (think Ghandi).

In C.Gee’s case I use the word “think” without any expectation of a useful outcome.

C.Gee

Derek BLADES
December 1st, 2010 6:51pm:

"Revenge" implies identity with the person being avenged. The 7/7 bombers were not Iraqi Baathists. Nor did they claim to be anti-war leftists. In other words their overt identification with the Iraqis was not political, but religious. Fellow Muslims were being killed in Iraq - and that was the pretext for the mass murder of people in Britain.

But whether their mass murder was done for religious or political reasons is irrelevant to the facts a) they committed terrorism and b) Islam is a political ideology which claims divine authority. There is no difference between political and religious jihad.

What I find amusing is that rippon, in reflexively wishing to diminish the threat of Islam, asserted that the 7/7 Muslim bombers were political actors seeking revenge. Some politics are as disgusting as religion - fanaticism and irrationality being common to both.

On the evidence so far, there should be no expectation of a useful outcome from any words you use. I expect that in meatspace you like to moon the people who annoy you. Surely there is a punctuation sign, along with lol or some emoticon that can express this for you?

Zoroaster

rippon:

You can't reify separate categories of the political and the religious. Identities overlap (see for example Baumann, 'The Multicultural Riddle'; Werbner, 'Imagined Diasporas among Manchester Muslims') and you cannot separate a 'political identity' from a 'religious identity' and treat them as two separate objects.

just Louise

When it suits "Inside Britain's Israel Lobby" Oborne, as when he ranted against David Miliband’s visible upset at losing the Labour Party leadership contest, he can praise our Christian heritage to the skies – not sure about the Judeo- part though. Look at this snide comment of Oborne’s: “Healey and Whitelaw were brought up in an era where few questioned the Christian virtues of humility, duty and service. Their superlative wartime generation grasped that institutions – church, political party, trade union and regiment – are what really matter, and that personal pride and vanity count for nothing. They shrugged their shoulders and made themselves available to serve in whatever capacity. They would have treated victory with equal humility.
The political culture in which we are conditioned to treat David Miliband’s minor setback as tragic, has developed fairly recently.”
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/.../peteroborne/.../give-us-loyalty-and-dignity-not-the- empty-vanity-of-ed-milibands-new-politics’/

Adam B.

Steve, as you're so well educated, and modestly tell us so, perhaps you could learn how to spell "ideology".

And I didn't simply mean ideologies.

Neil Saunders

You know that things have got very confusing (to say the least) when a scholar of the calibre of Robert Irwin feels constrained to quote with approval (in a review in the Independent of a book about Islamic ill-treatment of Jews) slurs against Bat Ye'or from an organisation called LoonWatch.

Anti-Islamists need to be aware of this rather shadowy (but evidently influential) outfit.

maddy1

The poor Serbs are the true victims. The serbs diid not have the advantage of BBC. conditioning like us! yPersecuted for aeons. The Serbs are polarised in the same way muslims have polarised many other diverse societies, throughout . The Serbs, get bombed by Nato in the name of disnterested tolerance! This coming to a place near you in the future?