The tyranny the west is now building

Red Trev

It's about time the left detoxified themselves of their anti-semitism and realised that a strong Isreal is the finest friend both the west,and all progressive's the world over,could have.They are the only civilised nation in that part of the world.

John.

"maximising population growth so as to achieve victory through overwhelming numbers" rings rather a large bell with regard to our own dear country does it not?

Alex Bensky

The "Gaza under siege" trope is very revealing. A lot of anti-Israel propaganda cannot be dismissed simply as deliberate falsehoods. It may be wrong, and almost all of it is, but at least there is a certain tie to reality.

But this "suffering Gaza" is a deliberate and knowing lie, repeated by western media endlessly and by people who have to know it's a lie. It cannot be done for any reason except, as Melanie says, to demonize Israel with a view towards its delegitimatization. And of course, it's done in favor of a misogynistic, brutal, oppressive regime. The lie's purveyors know that, too, and again their support for Hamas also shows a lot.

Selina

I pity you, I really do. How you can promote such vile lies while people in Gaza die from the cruel closure policies is beyond me. But that's perhaps just one of many differences between us.

Harold

Is this simply an inability to understand the economics of black markets and gangster capitalism, or is it deliberate ignorance for propaganda purposes?

C.Gee

Harold:

Hamas understands gangster capitalism all too well. That Hamas is the gang in charge of Gaza is not Israeli propaganda.

thinkforyourself

Selina "I pity you, I really do. How you can promote such vile lies while people in Gaza die from the cruel closure policies is beyond me. But that's perhaps just one of many differences between us."

Yes, there is a difference between us. You prefer distorted lies and we prefer the truth. If you are so concerned about Gaza, why not spend your next holiday there? I'll be in Israel instead - at least there is no chance I'll be kidnapped and held for ransom...

Ann Stern

Read the article about the Strip's economy. It's jaw dropping. 'A mosque will be set up at the center of each neighborhood, alongside shopping centers, schools and kindergartens. Access roads will be paved and even playgrounds for children.'
'Even playgrounds for the children!' You're right Melanie - houses, food, roads, playgrounds, it's surely wrong that these people should be allowed such access to these luxuries. They are living the life of Riley. They'll want freedom of movement next. Pah.
Perhaps it is time Israel paid them another little three-week visit and restored some sanity.

Ronnie

Thinkforyourself.

Obviously a refined sense of irony at work here.

Jon

Doesn't look like there is a lot of suffering going on at that new Gazan luxury mall does it?

Israel needs to get some new PR people as, apparently, the Palestinians seem to have gotten the best PR people in town.

MArk2

"....‘humanitarian crisis in Gaza’, deployed by European politicians and all on the left as part of their project to demonise and destroy Israel"

Come on Melanie, this really won't do. "All" on the left? - really -? including the likes of Dennis Macshane,John Mann, Lousie Ellman, "Harry's Place" website - and, if rather less significantly - me?

Dixon

Everybody, if you want to see the lifestyle "under siege" in Gaza, take a look at this web-site of a chain of clubs and hotels there:

http://www.rootsclub.ps/

To savour the full impact, make sure your sound is turned up.

Paul Freeman

"mailed to every member of Parliament"?

Surely there's a typo there. The sentence should read: "nailed to every member of Parliament".

The nails courtesy of Taimour Abdulwahab Al-Abdaly.

Harold

C.Gee
December 15th, 2010 8:26pm
I agree.

It would help understanding if the implications for the bulk of the population were spelled out, and not simply ignored.

Of course, Hamas is not solely responsible. It has long indicated its willingness to negotiate.

Israel has been trashing the Palestinian economy in Gaza since well before 2005. The virtual imprisonment of the population since 2005 is not for Israeli security.It is to supply the "formaldehyde" to freeze the "peace process". The blockade is not purely military. It is to punish the population (to "put them on a diet") - hence the embargo on so many staples and goods of no military significance. The military assaults of 2006 and 2008 (and weekly in between) are not self-defence. The military strikes on the economic infrastructure are not determined by military necessity. It has long been Israeli policy to divide the Palestinians and dump them into discrete ghettoes where poverty will reduce their urge to resist. Finally, Israel will be free to expropriate whatever else it wants of the territories west of the Jordan.

I am sure you think Israel's policies acceptable and are happy that they are close to success. They are certainly not unique. I suppose it is a question (and I don't know the answer) whether the native americans would have been better to go meekly into their reservations without resistance.

Harold

Dixon,
I am relieved to hear from you again. I recall that you feared for your life if you revealed where we could find the arguments you think support your assertions. I was worried you had given too much away to the would-be assassins, despite telling us nothing. All's well! although, as was pointed out, you could give us the arguments themselves, while witholding the details of the learned journals in which they appeared.

Tilly

If Gaza is "doing really well economically", its citizens must be amazingly good actors.

There they are - living a life of Riley in fancy restaurants and clubs, stuffing themselves on delicious imports - yet somehow they manage to persuade the CIA (no less!) to include the following in its World Factbook:

Unemployment in Gaza stands at 37% (compared to 18.70% in Sudan and 8% in both Israel and the UK).

The percentage of the Gaza population living under the poverty line is put at 80%, exactly double Sudan's tally, with Israel registering at 23.60% and the UK 14%.

Even allowing for huge margins of error (let's say, "only" 17% unemployed and 40% in poverty), the visibility of those doing very badly indeed must be inescapable.

(Just think, for eg, of the number of beggars and dole claimants one sees in any British town where the percentages are comparatively tiny.)

So how come the "Sudanese official" cited by Barry Rubin gained the impression that Gaza was enviably well-off compared to his own country?

The only charitable explanation I can think of is that he based his impressions on the blinkered view of a wealthy tourist - a bit like a visitor to London who stays with friends in Hampstead's Millionaires Row and whose only outings are by taxi to the capital's top eateries, galleries and nightspots.

The "lifestyle" video recommended by Dixon (Dec 16th, 1.45pm) is in much the same vein.

Sure, one can point to gross inequalities of wealth in Gaza, and no doubt there are propaganda advantages in exaggeration, but to say Gaza is "doing really well economically" is an exaggeration ludicrously too far.

The CIA are among the world's best-equipped intelligence-gatherers and spies, dammit! You'd think they'd smell a rat if all those guzzling Gazans were dressing up as paupers and skulking in slums for the benefit of World Factbook researchers...

C. Gee

Harold:

What is Hamas willing to negotiate? Release of its own hostage population? Extortion is not considered negotiation, nor is any agreement achieved by extortion binding.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Tilly: "Unemployment in Gaza stands at 37% (compared to 18.70% in Sudan and 8% in both Israel and the UK)."

Less than the black population in affirmative action South Africa, then...and how does it compare with Gaza under Egyptian rule...and does that take account of fully employed Fedayeen?

Dixon

Harold....I included every necessary argument in response to your each successive blank assertion in a previous thread. You on the other hand keep making your blank assertions without ever offering either an argument or a counter argument. In fact you havent any arguments, only opinions.You are, in effect, a waste of time, or putting that another way,a time waster. What I believe is known as a "Troll" ( defined in some dictionaries as a creature in folklore that lives beside a bridge and wastes travellers time in insincere debate).

BTW, when I said "life" I thought it was pretty obvious I meant job, home, social circle. Although as a matter of fact You Dont have to be as famous as Pym Fortuyn or Theo Van Gogh,or Per Westergaard to become the object of an Islamist murderers attentions, as Molly Norris could tell you, had she not had to change her name and go into hiding.

For that matter, if you think everyone else should reveal their identity, whats your full name?

Moreover, I never said my items in Philosophy Now and The Philosopher were anything to do with politics. Pointedly, they had nothing whatsoever to do with politics. My point in referring to them was as a response to your - as it happens foot-in-mouth - sarcastic jibe that "you should publish". Indeed, I have. But on topics about as far from thoseunder discussion at Spectator blogs as you could get.

C.Gee

Tilly:

Appearances may be deceiving, photographs may lie, as may witnesses and spokesmen - or even spies.

The problem then is who and what do you believe?

If your point is that it is going too far to say Gaza's economy is booming, what are your points of reference? Economies may be doing relatively well compared against prior years, even though unemployment remains high, or compared with other economies. Black markets may flourish even where the official economy is depressed.

If your point is that the world should not relax its compassion for the poor Gazans, because there are still many who are suffering, you should say so. I am sure that you appeal on behalf of many of the impoverished of the world. North Korea, I believe has a starving population, thanks to the perpetual war-footing it is placed on by its Dear Leader. But perhaps Gazans are your pet cause.

Dixon

Tilly:
"The CIA are among the world's best-equipped intelligence-gatherers and spies, dammit! You'd think they'd smell a rat if all those guzzling Gazans were dressing up as paupers and skulking in slums for the benefit of World Factbook researchers..."

So I take it you believe their (now rather conveniently forgotten) assertion that Saddam had a nuclear, biological and chemical warfare arsenal capable of rapid deployment?

You cannot have it both ways and one in any case must ask what the sources for their "world factbook" are...if not the people in power in Gaza?
Certainly, it is impossible for any truly independent fact gathering to be conducted there as opposed to the Hamas-steered selective variety.

The point about the web-site that I referred to ( http://www.rootsclub.ps/ ) is that it proves quite clearly that there is no "blockade". Irrespective of the percentage of the Gaza population able to afford those luxurious provisions boasted at that site, the resources are flowing into Gaza unhindered. Disparities of wealth among Gaza dwellers cannot therefore be attributed to that supposed "blockade" but must be due to the distribution of resources among them. It is, therefore, the result of the policies of Hamas, not of Israel.

Augustus

Pro-Palestinian activists only seem to care when they can blame
Palestinian Arab misery on Israel. Well, a socio-economic survey recently conducted by researchers at the American University of Beirut, in coordination with UNRWA statisticians, found jobless rates among Palestinian Arabs in
Lebanon to be 56%, with only 38%
of the working population considered to be in stable employment. A mere 6% of Palestinians there go on to attend university (in Gaza the number is over 46%). This means that the unemployment rate of Palestinian Arabs in an Arab sovereign state is far higher than in Gaza where the rate is about 35%. The poverty rate for Palestinians in Lebanon is also higher than in Gaza.

So where are the flotillas and convoys to help the Palestinians who live in Lebanon? Nobody cares, because when Arabs deliberately discriminate against their Palestinian brethren it deliberately gets hushed up. Israel must be shown to be the uniquely evil one even though in the past six decades plenty of Arabs have treated Palestinian Arabs like dirt.

Harold

Dixon
December 16th, 2010 6:51pm

Dear Dixon,
I said your outlandish contributions here are so entertaining you should publish. You came back with, Sucks Yaboo, I do already publish. Now you tell me what you publish is nothing at all like the stuff you contribute here. So much for "Sucks Yaboo"!

... I suppose the lack of argument here should have told me that any work published in philosophy journals must be very different.

Why not apply the skills presumably demonstrated in your published work to your contributions here? They would provide less outlandish entertainment, but perhaps more solid instruction.

Harold

C. Gee
December 16th, 2010 6:45pm
An interesting conundrum: are the Palestinians hostages more of Hamas or of Israel? Take Hamas out the equation - would the Palestinians be free? Only if they quietly accepted Israel's decision that they should live in abject poverty crammed in their little ghetto (or "Singapore of the Middle East" or whatever it was the more cynical of Sharon's propagandists called it).

C.Gee

Ann Stern:

In your eagerness to suggest cruelty on the part of Israel and Melanie Phillips, you have lost the plot.

The point being made is that Hamas is setting itself up as the source of economic welfare - analogously to other totalitarian polities. North Korea comes to mind.

Leftists should rejoice at this as evidence that Hamas is proving itself to be a caring government - and Gaza a “viable” state.

Of course, the houses, shops, mosques etc. may be dual-purpose: shelter for people and weapons. But that would make sense, because the civilian population is dual-purpose: martyrs and hostages.

The outrage being expressed here that anyone should dare to suggest that the Gazan economy is doing better, is inexplicable. It seems to be based on the logic that if Gazans are not suffering, then Israel's collective punishment is failing, which means that Israel's policies are not cruel, and that would mean that anti-Zionist politics are based on a false premise, and that Israel’s existence is not immoral and blot on the planet, and that Hamas should cease trying to destroy it. Which would you rather have: suffering Gazans and a pretext to demonize Israel for not providing welfare, or happy Gazans receiving welfare from their own elected Hamas government independently of Israel which may be let off the moral hook (not to mention being relieved of having to supplying material aid to its enemies)? If the former, is that not being cruel ? If the latter, is that not being a good collectivist and a compassionate humanitarian?

Tilly

C.Gee (also Dixon & John Roosevelt)

You put your finger right on the button with the question of who or what one believes in this context.

A humanitarian agency? Melanie Phillips? An unnamed Sudanese official? The CIA Factbook?

I chose the latter (initially) not because I thought US intelligence-gatherers were a particularly reliable source - their cock-up over WDM in Iran wasn't exactly awe-inspiring - but because I was trying to avoid (a) any organisation which would be instantly dismissed by contributors to this blog as strongly biased in Gaza's favour and (b) any individuals who were so personally hostile to Gaza that, again, bias would become the overriding issue.

Rather to my surprise, the Factbook seemed to be a pretty neutral compilation of comparative data on world states, so (for better or worse) it would have to do.

I quite agree that factors like black markets and past performance have to be taken into account, which is why I was prepared to take a 50% adjustment in the figures on board.

But even THEN Gaza remains in the realm of countries at the bottom of the heap and in need of aid. It is most definitely not "doing really well economically" - and certainly makes me doubt the hyperbolic claims of passionate Zionists who portray the Strip as rolling in wealth.

(Incidentally, John Roosevelt, on the unemployment score, Gaza appears to stand quite a way behind South Africa, which has a 25% unemployment rate, compared to 37%. If you have found alternative figures, please let me know the source. Your question about whether the employment rate of Fedayeen is taken into account seems a bit odd - rather like asking if graduates of Eton and Harrow are taken into account in compiling the UK figures.)

The crux of the matter, C.Gee: Do I believe that "the world should not relax its compassion for poor Gazans, because there are many still suffering"?

The answer is yes.

If Gaza is comparable to the most wretched countries on earth on the poverty index (EVEN when the figure is halved), there are clearly thousands of people there in need of basic resources such as food, clean water, medical attention and shelter.

We can argue till the cows come home about who/what is to "blame" for their plight, Dixon; but as long as those fundamental needs remain, compassion is the very least we in the immensely privileged west can offer as a response. (We certainly shouldn't be wriggling about on the moral hook by dismissing all reports of suffering as a "poisonous mantra" of lies.)

Finally, you ask, is Gaza a "pet project" of mine?

The answer here is No.

North Korea's populace is almost certainly in equally dire need (not to mention so oppressed that we don't even have access to information, let alone routes to aid provision); most of sub-Sahara Africa is on a par with Gaza, and great swathes of Asia, too.

We, meanwhile, are sitting in our nice warm homes, with full bellies, nattering away on our expensive laptops about what facts and figures we choose to believe...

Kate

Here are the facts about Gaza (as seen and known by me, a regular visitor)
- People are not starving on the streets of Gaza.
- It neither looks nor feels like e.g. Darfur.
- The economy is, however, essentially dead. Unemployment is at 60%. The vast majority of the other 40% are in the public sector (i.e. civil servants paid by either the PA or Hamas).
- There is no productive base (absent a relatively small amount of strawberries and carnations exported via a dutch programme).
- This represents a sharp economic decline compared to Gaza's years under British, Egyptian, PA and Israeli control.
- 80% of Gazans would be below the poverty line (or indeed "food insecure") without international donor aid.
- There are two "international" restaurants in Gaza. One is Roots. They are normally empty. There is a reason why their website is in English - they attract diplomats and aid workers in the main. Whenever I have eaten there I have been the only diner (capacity about 200)
- There is no Olympic Size swimming pool in Gaza.
- There is one shopping mall built and run by Hamas. It's rather pokey. It looks full in the photograph because it was the opening day and ordinary Gazans came to ride on the escalator. It's normally empty.
- Hamas are indeed building a large number of flats and houses. This is, of course, not funded by the donor community.
- The donor community want Israel to grant access for building materials to UN-approved projects precisely so that Hamas is not the only economic actor on the ground. Ditto allowing exports of finished goods and imports of raw materials.
- The UN projects include more than 100 new UNRWA schools. These are desperately needed. UNRWA teaches a pluralistic curriculum that includes, for example, specific holocaust education. Hamas doesn't like this and attacks the schools.
- So far Israel has approved 8 out of the more than 100 schools but only allowed in building materials for 3. This is six months after the June 20th official change in access policy.
- No-one, including senior Israeli military and intelligence analysts, thinks that the restrictions on Gaa have served any useful purpose vis-a-vis Israel's security. That's why they are progressively lifting them. Just not fast or deep enough (largely because of domestic political concerns).

Mustapha Bunn

I once met a bloke in Israel who kept his cafe open on the Jewish Sabbath.I asked him why.His reply was that he was not Jewish but Arab."Oh",I said,"so you are in a minority in Israel".
"Yes",he replied,"but I used to be in a worse situation when I lived in Lebanon as you see I am also a Christian".

Miranda Rose Smith

I've been saying for years that Western liberals who condemn Israel for oppressing the (now-so-called) "Palestinians" (who are Arabs) don't really give a damn about the "Palestinians" except as cat's-paws to finish off Israel for them.
I urge any SPANISH politician or journalist or political activist who condemns Israel for shooting back when Arabs shoot at it or who condemned Israel's response to the Gaza flotilla, knowing perfectly well that coast guards, all over the world, stop ships every day of the week, to take a good long look at the name of that neighborhood: Andalus. The Arabs think they're entitled to Spain.

Tilly

Kate

Bless you! What you give is a thoroughly believable report because you engage both eye and brain. To those of us who have never visited Gaza, it makes a wonderful change from the usual fare offered by hard-to- interpret statisticians at one end and vested-interest hysterics at the other.

Harold

Kate,
What you have written is very instructive. It is good for us to hear from someone with first-hand experience. Could I ask if you know whether Israel is in fact lifting its blockade to any significant extent, or, as reported, is any improvement slight at best?

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Kate: "- This represents a sharp economic decline compared to Gaza's years under British, Egyptian, PA and Israeli control.
- 80% of Gazans would be below the poverty line (or indeed "food insecure") without international donor aid."

Thanks for the interesting low down on gaza. Can you tell us how the Economy of gaza differed un the Egyptians and the extent to which the relationship between Gazans and international aid has changed since then. It seems to me that you feel that the current situation has caused their to be a massive increase in Aid..that the Gazans have fallen into a state of total dependency compared with a past - under a kinder regime - of the opposite.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Tilly:"(Incidentally, John Roosevelt, on the unemployment score, Gaza appears to stand quite a way behind South Africa, which has a 25% unemployment rate, compared to 37%. If you have found alternative figures, please let me know the source. Your question about whether the employment rate of Fedayeen is taken into account seems a bit odd - rather like asking if graduates of Eton and Harrow are taken into account in compiling the UK figures.)"

Tilly, I specified Black unemployment in South Africa but, that aside, you will find - I am sure - the way "unemployment " rather contentious.
Google the subject and you will find, I am confident, figures which range from 25% to over 40%. Here is one source that popped on Google pretty quickly:

http://www.csae.ox.ac.uk/resprogs/usam/default.html

As for your Harrow and Eton thing....Sorry..you mean being a terrorist/freedom fighter is rather recherche and elitist? Mmm.. I must try that sometime and talk to my Old Harovian mates about it...Good fit, I'd say!

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Tilly: I realise you have a non ideolgical sympathy for the suffering of the Palestinians (not to mention the North Koreans).

What would you suggest as a way of improving their lot given the political realities?

Kate

John Roosevelt et. al.

Re-reading my comment I thought I should reiterate one thing in case not entirely clear. I have no time for Hamas. They are socially reactionary, religiously fundamental and murderous.

My belief is, however, that the access restrictions at the border are and were counterproductive in virtually all respects. They served to emiserate and further radicalise a generation of young Gazans while at the same time consolidating Hamas control of the economy. Interestingly though political support for Hamas (if you trust the dodgy polling) fell during the period of the most severe restrictions, the fastest fall was in the period post-Flotilla when more basic goods came in and when there was no longer a "siege mentality" contributing towards solidarity with the Hamas leadership. When you can no longer deflect blame onto Israel you get it in the neck yourself. Let's not forget that in 2007 Hamas was mortaring Karni crossing at the time General Dayton was upgrading the facilities.

So what has changed post-June 20th.

- A trebling of goods going in. Mostly private sector foodstuffs.
- A commitment just two weeks ago to facilitate exports.
- Some 75 UN and other donor projects approved in principle.

What still needs to change to fully implement a shift in policy away from isolating Gaza and towards normalising the situation?

- Permission for materials to go in for UN-led and private sector reconstruction. The difficulty is that this involves "dual-use" items like concrete and piping. But there are workable end-use monitoring mechanisms that can be deployed.

- Raw material, machinery and spare parts to build up the industrial capacity of the Gaza strip, particularly in its traditional sectors (agriculture, furniture, textiles)

- A better regime at the crossings for exports and access not only to third-party export markets but also to Israel and the West Bank.

My personal sense is that the Israeli security establishment have accepted that the siege did not dislodge Hamas and may have allowed it to consolidate its control. They may also have accepted that the best way to put pressure on Hamas is to co-operate with Egypt on denying them use of Rafah crossing and undermining the tunnel trade (now one third of the size pre-flotilla) rather than stopping the legitimate trade at the Israel-Gaza crossings.

I don't think I'd characterise earlier regimes (if we mean Egyptian, British, pre-2007 IDF) as "kinder". All pretty harsh. But they didn't take blanket measures that have proved quite so self-defeating. There is no doubt that the Gazan economy is currently at a historical low and that donor countries are picking up the tab. The EU has just agreed to stump up some $7m dollars to upgrade Kerem Shalom crossing in the south, for example.

Overall I think things are moving in the right direction - but too slowly. There is really no strategic reason why the Israeli authorities cannot approve many more of the already internationally-funded UN and other projects, particularly the schools. I suspect bureaucratic inertia and risk-averseness as much as anything. Possibly also, at the political level, an unwillingness to give away for free something that can be bartered to the US Administration.

And, of course, Gilad Shalit both in genuine and deeply felt emotional terms and with regard to domestic politics.

Adam B.

Kate, your post is very interesting. However, a couple of points. Hamas won the election when, I believe, there were no restrictions of the kind now in place. That is when it was at its most popular. Their popularity has fallen since the restrictions. Also, to say that the restrictions have radicalised them - well, when one fights back or defends oneself, one's enemy becomes more entrenched - on the short term in any case. That's always the case. And if this radicalisation is all about the restrictions, why is none of this radicalism being directed at Egypt, which operates a total blockade of Gaza, unlike Israel which provides thousands of tonnes of goods and power to Gaza, not to mention free medical care to 30,000 Gazans every year? Egypt gives precisely zero. I think the restrictions is a small part of this fanaticism.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Kate: Thanks for interesting post. I am sure alot of what you have said is true and, at last, here is an example of insight unburdened by ideological twaddle - implicit or otherwise.

My own feeling is that if you are indeed correct, there is nothing to loose by Israel following your advice. However, I am totally unconvinced that this will translate into any meaningful move towards lasting peace.

A.

Kate
December 17th, 2010 11:38pm
We all benefit from your informed and balanced contributions here.

"There is really no strategic reason why the Israeli authorities cannot approve..."

Could you say what is your understanding of Israel's strategic goals.

"And, of course, Gilad Shalit both in genuine and deeply felt emotional terms..."

I think we can all agree. Could the same not be said of the Palestinians and the hundreds if not thoudsands held by Israel without charge or due process?

JOHN ROOSEVELT

A.Could you please explain what "due process" exists in gaza?

A.

JOHN ROOSEVELT
December 19th, 2010 8:54pm
Are you putting Israel's justice system on a par with Hamas? Or was it just a little rhetorical trick to help you avoid thinking about how Israel behaves?

Adam B.

A. Gilad Shalit is held in a hole in the ground, without any word to or from him, in total isolation - effectively as a hostage. No-one is allowed to visit him, and Hamas are inhumane antisemitic terrorists.

Not quite the same, is it?

JOHN ROOSEVELT

A: it is no rhetorical trick. Israel is at war with the Palestinians. In the circumstances - in this context - your comment is twaddle and insidious.

You. like Harold and the rest of the twaddlemeisters, judge Israel in vacuo. Judge it in the context of the war, and that country suddenly becomes a beacon of moral light - relative to its enemies in the Middle East and any state further afield.

The fact is that even if Israel held no pisoners of any description, Palestinians or otherwise, gave up all all settlements, "shared" Jerusalem, you would still have an axe to grind. None of you idiots think this country has a right to exist,just like the entire Palestinian leadership. In this case, Israel can do no right.

In these circumstances, i think anything goes. Israel should do what it takes to keep those who would eliminate it at bay and you and those you slavishly support should live with the consequences.

I dont trust your protestations of injustice. I think you, like Harold, are a liar.

A.

Adam B.
December 20th, 2010 12:12am
I admit you know more about the conditions of Shalit's captivity than I do (I don't know how). The conditions he is held in are certainly criminal and inhumane. Quite how this is worse than incarcerating hundreds or thousands without trial, many in effect kidnapped, many mere children, many tortured is beyond me.

To say that Israel is at "war" and so can do what it wants, as your fellow ranter does, is a very poor excuse.

I notice you are again careful to time your exit from earlier threads.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

A: "To say that Israel is at "war" and so can do what it wants, as your fellow ranter does, is a very poor excuse."

No, A: Israel will do what it wants irrespective...but it does so because it is at war.

In any case, clearly you seem to know more than anyone re what israel does in its prisons. I guess you will be taking it to Court?

Your lying is only matched by your arrogance. Not untypical of a twaddlemeister, nor the Palestinian leadership, for that matter.

Tilly

John Roosevelt

I did write a reply to your question to me on Dec 17th, 6.51, but for some reason the moderators haven't let it through. The only explanation I can think of is that they have forwarded my post to the Nobel peace prize committee.

Drakken

I still see that a few of you leftists appeasers ie Harold,Tilly and Derek are still trying to defend the very folks that would turn on them on a dime and once their usefulness comes to an end. For if you cannot see what is clearly coming, you folks are in for the most rudest of awakings.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

A: "To say that Israel is at "war" and so can do what it wants, as your fellow ranter does, is a very poor excuse."

A typically pernicious piece of disingenuousness from one of proud apologists for Islamism on this blog.

Read your Hamas Charter, A. Read, there, the words of the founder of The Moslem Brotherhood - Hassan al-Banna (who never even set foot in Palestine). Al Banna condemned, on religious grounds, any partition of Palestine, regardless of where the boarder was drawn - and he did so since at least 1937 (supporting the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's wholesale murder of Jews in Palestine in the so-called Arab Revolt.

The Hamas Charter quotes Al Banna thus: "Israel will be established, and will stay established, until Islam nullifies (obliterates) it, as it nullifies what was before it." This, no doubt, is what our peacenik friend of the Left(?), Harold, is no doubt referring to when he wants us to dig deep into our souls to discover faith in Hamas's willingness to "negotiate" with the Jews.

Particulalrly given the nature of this conflict and the fact that is probable that the Moslem Brotherhood have a following of at least 20 million in Europe today, Israel should do precisely what it wants to keep Hamas and its fellow travelers in the box of its choice - no matter what you think the implications might be and how they may effect your faux humanitarian sensibilities.

War is a dance of death, A, and the implication that you can have it but it can be relatively hunkydory, is just another sorry example of the twaddle you and your mates let drip from your pens.

Remember that you fool noone who really counts and your illusion that it might be otherwise will perpetuate war and one which you will never win. Even the Left will one day wake up tot the fact that Islamic imperialism is not an ideal replacement for US or Western imperialism.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Tilly: ":We can argue till the cows come home about who/what is to "blame" for their plight, Dixon; but as long as those fundamental needs remain, compassion is the very least we in the immensely privileged west can offer as a response. (We certainly shouldn't be wriggling about on the moral hook by dismissing all reports of suffering as a "poisonous mantra" of lies.)"

No, Tilly. You would be more "compassionate" if you took responsibility for why the war is, in the first place, and why it contiues to persist - rather than give succour to the Islamists voted in by the wretched whose plight you make out Israel is solely responsible for.

Gaza is ruled by the Moslem Brotherhood, in effect. Hamas's Charter is predicated on the rejectionism of the founder of that pernicious organisation - which probably now has the support of the lion's share of the +- 20 million moslems in Europe, not to mention the lemmings of the Lib-left "alliance".

As long as the Arabs and moslems keep perpetuating those famous words - a propos the 1967 War:

"This was the first war in history that on the morrow the victors sued for peace and the vanquished called for unconditional surrender."

..we will need more than compassion to save the Palestinian arabs from the malicious idiocy of their leaders and the complete and utter dim-witted cant of their apologists (like you, Harold, A, Blades and the other anti Zionist dolts who write here).

Tilly

John Roosevelt

On Dec 17th (6.15pm) you briefly stopped foaming at the mouth and asked me a sensible question which I thought deserved a serious answer.

As I explained on December 20th (3.08pm) the reply I wrote failed to appear. Cross as I was at the time - because I'd put a good deal of research and thought into it - I am actually quite glad now that it vanished into cyberspace.

Reason: It's becoming quite plain to me that you are not the least bit interested in views which don't converge entirely with your own rigid and supremely self-righteous stance. By inviting 'debate' all you actually want is an opportunity to rant, burble, and fire off a (rather limited) stock of insults.

What a waste of time!

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Tilly: "Reason: It's becoming quite plain to me that you are not the least bit interested in views which don't converge entirely with your own rigid and supremely self-righteous stance. By inviting 'debate' all you actually want is an opportunity to rant, burble, and fire off a (rather limited) stock of insults."

To you, Tilly, or arguments or points made should carry equal weight simply because they are arguments or points made. Another storm trooper in the service of that modern pandemic consigning so many to the hospital for twaddlemeister - equivalence.

If I appear to feel self-righteous, it's simply because I am right, Tilly. If you have the courage of your convictions, dont be a whinger and persevere with the your lofty thoughts...Don't blame cyberspace for your inability to put your turpitude to the test of sold examination and rebuttal - like the Palestinian leadership you so adore and apologise for - directly or indirectly.

Go back and read the intellectual inspirations fr Hams and its delightful Charter. Then come back for a delightful chin wag, do...

Tilly

John Roosevelt

"If I appear to be self-righteous, it's simply because I am right."

Have you thought about offering that as a slogan to all the tyrants of the world?

Irrespective of political ideology, religious fervour, or just plain power-craziness, it's bound to go down a storm.

Talking of which ...Yes, I have read the Hamas Charter. A perfect e.g of self-righteousness in action, I'd say. And no, it does NOT make Hamas "right"!